I was installing the Continental 4 Seasons onto the wheels for the Douglas and to my dismay, the wheelbase of the Douglas is slightly too short and the tires drag on the front derailleur clamp. None of the other 28 mm tires I have do this. So Continental did a couple of things - they set the tire up so that it isn't round taken in a line lateral to the motion of the tire, and they have significantly thicker tread for longer life I imagine. The Vittoria's and the Michelin's and the Continental GP5000's do not do this. I have some new Michelin Pro Endurance tires on the Merlin but it has more than enough wheelbase to deal with the Goodyear Eagle 4 Seasons when they shortly arrive. I'll put the Michelin's on the Douglas and the Continentals on the Airborne.

On Sunday, August 8, 2021 at 2:56:13 PM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
> I was installing the Continental 4 Seasons onto the wheels for the Douglas and to my dismay, the wheelbase of the Douglas is slightly too short and the tires drag on the front derailleur clamp. None of the other 28 mm tires I have do this. So Continental did a couple of things - they set the tire up so that it isn't round taken in a line lateral to the motion of the tire, and they have significantly thicker tread for longer life I imagine. The Vittoria's and the Michelin's and the Continental GP5000's do not do this. I have some new Michelin Pro Endurance tires on the Merlin but it has more than enough wheelbase to deal with the Goodyear Eagle 4 Seasons when they shortly arrive. I'll put the Michelin's on the Douglas and the Continentals on the Airborne.
Well it appears that the Airborne has the same problem - a wheelbase that won't accomodate the size of a Continental 4 Seasons 28 mm tire. since these were originally mounted on the Lemond Zurich, it seems a bit curious that a steel racing bike from the early 2000's could accommodate larger tires than a Ti bike which was not designed for racing.

Tom Kunich <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
> I was installing the Continental 4 Seasons onto the wheels for the
> Douglas and to my dismay, the wheelbase of the Douglas is slightly too
> short and the tires drag on the front derailleur clamp. None of the other
> 28 mm tires I have do this. So Continental did a couple of things - they
> set the tire up so that it isn't round taken in a line lateral to the
> motion of the tire, and they have significantly thicker tread for longer
> life I imagine. The Vittoria's and the Michelin's and the Continental
> GP5000's do not do this. I have some new Michelin Pro Endurance tires on
> the Merlin but it has more than enough wheelbase to deal with the
> Goodyear Eagle 4 Seasons when they shortly arrive. I'll put the
> Michelin's on the Douglas and the Continentals on the Airborne.
>
A lot of road tires are undersized (or at least used to be!) for example
Marathon plus in 25mm form was true to size so fair bit bigger, than the
pure road tires.

And well the width of the rim will effect the tire, plus manufactures
tolerances.

Roger Merriman.

On 8/10/2021 8:26 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:

<snip>

> A lot of road tires are undersized (or at least used to be!) for example
> Marathon plus in 25mm form was true to size so fair bit bigger, than the
> pure road tires.
>
> And well the width of the rim will effect the tire, plus manufactures
> tolerances.

I wish that manufacturers would include the actual diameter of the tire
in their specifications, not just the diameter of the wheels it fits.

I've run into the clearance issue with some Schwalbe Marathon tires that
I thought would fit, but didn't. I bought some different Schwalbe tires
that fit. I've pretty much moved to 100% Schwalbe for both tires and tubes.

On Tuesday, August 10, 2021 at 8:26:38 AM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote:
> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I was installing the Continental 4 Seasons onto the wheels for the
> > Douglas and to my dismay, the wheelbase of the Douglas is slightly too
> > short and the tires drag on the front derailleur clamp. None of the other
> > 28 mm tires I have do this. So Continental did a couple of things - they
> > set the tire up so that it isn't round taken in a line lateral to the
> > motion of the tire, and they have significantly thicker tread for longer
> > life I imagine. The Vittoria's and the Michelin's and the Continental
> > GP5000's do not do this. I have some new Michelin Pro Endurance tires on
> > the Merlin but it has more than enough wheelbase to deal with the
> > Goodyear Eagle 4 Seasons when they shortly arrive. I'll put the
> > Michelin's on the Douglas and the Continentals on the Airborne.
> >
> A lot of road tires are undersized (or at least used to be!) for example
> Marathon plus in 25mm form was true to size so fair bit bigger, than the
> pure road tires.
>
> And well the width of the rim will effect the tire, plus manufactures
> tolerances.

I think you're on to the problem with rim width. But modern road bikes don't like wide rims.

On Tuesday, August 10, 2021 at 9:57:13 AM UTC-7, sms wrote:
> On 8/10/2021 8:26 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>
> <snip>
> > A lot of road tires are undersized (or at least used to be!) for example
> > Marathon plus in 25mm form was true to size so fair bit bigger, than the
> > pure road tires.
> >
> > And well the width of the rim will effect the tire, plus manufactures
> > tolerances.
> I wish that manufacturers would include the actual diameter of the tire
> in their specifications, not just the diameter of the wheels it fits.
>
> I've run into the clearance issue with some Schwalbe Marathon tires that
> I thought would fit, but didn't. I bought some different Schwalbe tires
> that fit. I've pretty much moved to 100% Schwalbe for both tires and tubes.
I think that it is a bit odd that Continental makes the tires to go to and yet one of their most expensive tires won't work in most bikes. My hands are now too torn up to switch the tires back to the Lemond. It will take two weeks for them to heal enough to switch tires on these tubeless rims. From now on the only wheels I buy are REAL clinchers. I went through four expensive innertubes to mount those tires. Kenda innertubes seem to be more pinch resistant so that is what I intend to buy from now on rather than Continental. At least until I have clincher wheels for all of my bikes. I though that the Campy Scirroco's I bought were the older clinchers but instead they turned out to be the newer tubeless version. Seems like the only true clinchers I can buy for sure are the Chinese SuperTeam carbon wheels.

sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
> On 8/10/2021 8:26 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> A lot of road tires are undersized (or at least used to be!) for example
>> Marathon plus in 25mm form was true to size so fair bit bigger, than the
>> pure road tires.
>>
>> And well the width of the rim will effect the tire, plus manufactures
>> tolerances.
>
> I wish that manufacturers would include the actual diameter of the tire
> in their specifications, not just the diameter of the wheels it fits.

I guess it’s a bit of a how long is a piece of string in that the tire
diameter will differ depending on rim width and pressure.
>
> I've run into the clearance issue with some Schwalbe Marathon tires that
> I thought would fit, but didn't. I bought some different Schwalbe tires
> that fit. I've pretty much moved to 100% Schwalbe for both tires and tubes.
>
They are my go to brand as well.

Roger Merriman.

Tom Kunich <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tuesday, August 10, 2021 at 9:57:13 AM UTC-7, sms wrote:
>> On 8/10/2021 8:26 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>> A lot of road tires are undersized (or at least used to be!) for example
>>> Marathon plus in 25mm form was true to size so fair bit bigger, than the
>>> pure road tires.
>>>
>>> And well the width of the rim will effect the tire, plus manufactures
>>> tolerances.
>> I wish that manufacturers would include the actual diameter of the tire
>> in their specifications, not just the diameter of the wheels it fits.
>>
>> I've run into the clearance issue with some Schwalbe Marathon tires that
>> I thought would fit, but didn't. I bought some different Schwalbe tires
>> that fit. I've pretty much moved to 100% Schwalbe for both tires and tubes.
> I think that it is a bit odd that Continental makes the tires to go to
> and yet one of their most expensive tires won't work in most bikes. My
> hands are now too torn up to switch the tires back to the Lemond. It will
> take two weeks for them to heal enough to switch tires on these tubeless
> rims. From now on the only wheels I buy are REAL clinchers. I went
> through four expensive innertubes to mount those tires. Kenda innertubes
> seem to be more pinch resistant so that is what I intend to buy from now
> on rather than Continental. At least until I have clincher wheels for all
> of my bikes. I though that the Campy Scirroco's I bought were the older
> clinchers but instead they turned out to be the newer tubeless version.
> Seems like the only true clinchers I can buy for sure are the Chinese
> SuperTeam carbon wheels.
>

Been a long time since I used 4seasons but I certainly didn’t notice them
being any bigger at that time, to the best of my knowledge 28mm or
thereabouts is fairly common on pure road bikes.

Roger Merriman.c

On Tuesday, August 10, 2021 at 11:34:19 PM UTC+2, Roger Merriman wrote:
> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Tuesday, August 10, 2021 at 9:57:13 AM UTC-7, sms wrote:
> >> On 8/10/2021 8:26 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> >>
> >> <snip>
> >>> A lot of road tires are undersized (or at least used to be!) for example
> >>> Marathon plus in 25mm form was true to size so fair bit bigger, than the
> >>> pure road tires.
> >>>
> >>> And well the width of the rim will effect the tire, plus manufactures
> >>> tolerances.
> >> I wish that manufacturers would include the actual diameter of the tire
> >> in their specifications, not just the diameter of the wheels it fits.
> >>
> >> I've run into the clearance issue with some Schwalbe Marathon tires that
> >> I thought would fit, but didn't. I bought some different Schwalbe tires
> >> that fit. I've pretty much moved to 100% Schwalbe for both tires and tubes.
> > I think that it is a bit odd that Continental makes the tires to go to
> > and yet one of their most expensive tires won't work in most bikes. My
> > hands are now too torn up to switch the tires back to the Lemond. It will
> > take two weeks for them to heal enough to switch tires on these tubeless
> > rims. From now on the only wheels I buy are REAL clinchers. I went
> > through four expensive innertubes to mount those tires. Kenda innertubes
> > seem to be more pinch resistant so that is what I intend to buy from now
> > on rather than Continental. At least until I have clincher wheels for all
> > of my bikes. I though that the Campy Scirroco's I bought were the older
> > clinchers but instead they turned out to be the newer tubeless version.
> > Seems like the only true clinchers I can buy for sure are the Chinese
> > SuperTeam carbon wheels.
> >
> Been a long time since I used 4seasons but I certainly didn’t notice them
> being any bigger at that time, to the best of my knowledge 28mm or
> thereabouts is fairly common on pure road bikes.
>
> Roger Merriman.

Not so. 28 mm Continental 4 seasons didn't fit on my old Litespeed (rear), 28 mm Continental GP 5000 did fit IIRC.

Lou

On Tuesday, August 10, 2021 at 2:34:19 PM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote:
> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Tuesday, August 10, 2021 at 9:57:13 AM UTC-7, sms wrote:
> >> On 8/10/2021 8:26 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> >>
> >> <snip>
> >>> A lot of road tires are undersized (or at least used to be!) for example
> >>> Marathon plus in 25mm form was true to size so fair bit bigger, than the
> >>> pure road tires.
> >>>
> >>> And well the width of the rim will effect the tire, plus manufactures
> >>> tolerances.
> >> I wish that manufacturers would include the actual diameter of the tire
> >> in their specifications, not just the diameter of the wheels it fits.
> >>
> >> I've run into the clearance issue with some Schwalbe Marathon tires that
> >> I thought would fit, but didn't. I bought some different Schwalbe tires
> >> that fit. I've pretty much moved to 100% Schwalbe for both tires and tubes.
> > I think that it is a bit odd that Continental makes the tires to go to
> > and yet one of their most expensive tires won't work in most bikes. My
> > hands are now too torn up to switch the tires back to the Lemond. It will
> > take two weeks for them to heal enough to switch tires on these tubeless
> > rims. From now on the only wheels I buy are REAL clinchers. I went
> > through four expensive innertubes to mount those tires. Kenda innertubes
> > seem to be more pinch resistant so that is what I intend to buy from now
> > on rather than Continental. At least until I have clincher wheels for all
> > of my bikes. I though that the Campy Scirroco's I bought were the older
> > clinchers but instead they turned out to be the newer tubeless version.
> > Seems like the only true clinchers I can buy for sure are the Chinese
> > SuperTeam carbon wheels.
> >
> Been a long time since I used 4seasons but I certainly didn’t notice them
> being any bigger at that time, to the best of my knowledge 28mm or
> thereabouts is fairly common on pure road bikes.

Looking at my Merlin which is newer than the Douglas or the Airborne there is clearly sufficient clearance to be used there. But those two are older bikes probably used in the time of 23 mm tire popularity.

On Wednesday, August 11, 2021 at 6:32:29 AM UTC-7, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, August 10, 2021 at 11:34:19 PM UTC+2, Roger Merriman wrote:
> > Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, August 10, 2021 at 9:57:13 AM UTC-7, sms wrote:
> > >> On 8/10/2021 8:26 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> > >>
> > >> <snip>
> > >>> A lot of road tires are undersized (or at least used to be!) for example
> > >>> Marathon plus in 25mm form was true to size so fair bit bigger, than the
> > >>> pure road tires.
> > >>>
> > >>> And well the width of the rim will effect the tire, plus manufactures
> > >>> tolerances.
> > >> I wish that manufacturers would include the actual diameter of the tire
> > >> in their specifications, not just the diameter of the wheels it fits..
> > >>
> > >> I've run into the clearance issue with some Schwalbe Marathon tires that
> > >> I thought would fit, but didn't. I bought some different Schwalbe tires
> > >> that fit. I've pretty much moved to 100% Schwalbe for both tires and tubes.
> > > I think that it is a bit odd that Continental makes the tires to go to
> > > and yet one of their most expensive tires won't work in most bikes. My
> > > hands are now too torn up to switch the tires back to the Lemond. It will
> > > take two weeks for them to heal enough to switch tires on these tubeless
> > > rims. From now on the only wheels I buy are REAL clinchers. I went
> > > through four expensive innertubes to mount those tires. Kenda innertubes
> > > seem to be more pinch resistant so that is what I intend to buy from now
> > > on rather than Continental. At least until I have clincher wheels for all
> > > of my bikes. I though that the Campy Scirroco's I bought were the older
> > > clinchers but instead they turned out to be the newer tubeless version.
> > > Seems like the only true clinchers I can buy for sure are the Chinese
> > > SuperTeam carbon wheels.
> > >
> > Been a long time since I used 4seasons but I certainly didn’t notice them
> > being any bigger at that time, to the best of my knowledge 28mm or
> > thereabouts is fairly common on pure road bikes.
> >
> > Roger Merriman.
> Not so. 28 mm Continental 4 seasons didn't fit on my old Litespeed (rear), 28 mm Continental GP 5000 did fit IIRC.

I had the same experience.

Lou Holtman <lou.holtman@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tuesday, August 10, 2021 at 11:34:19 PM UTC+2, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, August 10, 2021 at 9:57:13 AM UTC-7, sms wrote:
>>>> On 8/10/2021 8:26 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>>
>>>> <snip>
>>>>> A lot of road tires are undersized (or at least used to be!) for example
>>>>> Marathon plus in 25mm form was true to size so fair bit bigger, than the
>>>>> pure road tires.
>>>>>
>>>>> And well the width of the rim will effect the tire, plus manufactures
>>>>> tolerances.
>>>> I wish that manufacturers would include the actual diameter of the tire
>>>> in their specifications, not just the diameter of the wheels it fits.
>>>>
>>>> I've run into the clearance issue with some Schwalbe Marathon tires that
>>>> I thought would fit, but didn't. I bought some different Schwalbe tires
>>>> that fit. I've pretty much moved to 100% Schwalbe for both tires and tubes.
>>> I think that it is a bit odd that Continental makes the tires to go to
>>> and yet one of their most expensive tires won't work in most bikes. My
>>> hands are now too torn up to switch the tires back to the Lemond. It will
>>> take two weeks for them to heal enough to switch tires on these tubeless
>>> rims. From now on the only wheels I buy are REAL clinchers. I went
>>> through four expensive innertubes to mount those tires. Kenda innertubes
>>> seem to be more pinch resistant so that is what I intend to buy from now
>>> on rather than Continental. At least until I have clincher wheels for all
>>> of my bikes. I though that the Campy Scirroco's I bought were the older
>>> clinchers but instead they turned out to be the newer tubeless version.
>>> Seems like the only true clinchers I can buy for sure are the Chinese
>>> SuperTeam carbon wheels.
>>>
>> Been a long time since I used 4seasons but I certainly didn’t notice them
>> being any bigger at that time, to the best of my knowledge 28mm or
>> thereabouts is fairly common on pure road bikes.
>>
>> Roger Merriman.
>
> Not so. 28 mm Continental 4 seasons didn't fit on my old Litespeed
> (rear), 28 mm Continental GP 5000 did fit IIRC.
>
> Lou
>
I fairness I would of been comparing them to other training/commute type
tires as my commute was a mix of road/gravel with the occasional club run
into the grubby lanes. Rather than race types such as the 4000/5000 etc.

Roger Merriman

On Wednesday, August 11, 2021 at 10:07:44 AM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote:
> Lou Holtman <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Tuesday, August 10, 2021 at 11:34:19 PM UTC+2, Roger Merriman wrote:
> >> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> On Tuesday, August 10, 2021 at 9:57:13 AM UTC-7, sms wrote:
> >>>> On 8/10/2021 8:26 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> <snip>
> >>>>> A lot of road tires are undersized (or at least used to be!) for example
> >>>>> Marathon plus in 25mm form was true to size so fair bit bigger, than the
> >>>>> pure road tires.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> And well the width of the rim will effect the tire, plus manufactures
> >>>>> tolerances.
> >>>> I wish that manufacturers would include the actual diameter of the tire
> >>>> in their specifications, not just the diameter of the wheels it fits..
> >>>>
> >>>> I've run into the clearance issue with some Schwalbe Marathon tires that
> >>>> I thought would fit, but didn't. I bought some different Schwalbe tires
> >>>> that fit. I've pretty much moved to 100% Schwalbe for both tires and tubes.
> >>> I think that it is a bit odd that Continental makes the tires to go to
> >>> and yet one of their most expensive tires won't work in most bikes. My
> >>> hands are now too torn up to switch the tires back to the Lemond. It will
> >>> take two weeks for them to heal enough to switch tires on these tubeless
> >>> rims. From now on the only wheels I buy are REAL clinchers. I went
> >>> through four expensive innertubes to mount those tires. Kenda innertubes
> >>> seem to be more pinch resistant so that is what I intend to buy from now
> >>> on rather than Continental. At least until I have clincher wheels for all
> >>> of my bikes. I though that the Campy Scirroco's I bought were the older
> >>> clinchers but instead they turned out to be the newer tubeless version.
> >>> Seems like the only true clinchers I can buy for sure are the Chinese
> >>> SuperTeam carbon wheels.
> >>>
> >> Been a long time since I used 4seasons but I certainly didn’t notice them
> >> being any bigger at that time, to the best of my knowledge 28mm or
> >> thereabouts is fairly common on pure road bikes.
> >>
> >> Roger Merriman.
> >
> > Not so. 28 mm Continental 4 seasons didn't fit on my old Litespeed
> > (rear), 28 mm Continental GP 5000 did fit IIRC.
> >
> > Lou
> >
> I fairness I would of been comparing them to other training/commute type
> tires as my commute was a mix of road/gravel with the occasional club run
> into the grubby lanes. Rather than race types such as the 4000/5000 etc.

Well I would expect the outside diameter to be similar and they aren't even close. The Michelin Pro4's or Power series works fine on this bike.