On 8/6/2021 6:32 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> Tom Kunich <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Friday, August 6, 2021 at 11:58:54 AM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Tuesday, August 3, 2021 at 2:48:42 PM UTC-7, sms wrote:
>>>>> On 8/3/2021 10:12 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>>>> sms <scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 8/2/2021 1:11 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <snip>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The problems with theses and others is when the cyclists numbers are up as
>>>>>>>> it’s difficult to pass, not a problem for myself as very few others go my
>>>>>>>> way.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes, there have already been a couple of complaints by "serious"
>>>>>>> cyclists that the protected bike lanes make it difficult to pass. But
>>>>>>> these are not lanes that are many miles long, they are put in in areas
>>>>>>> where there has been a problem with "vehicles behaving badly." For A
>>>>>>> recreational cyclist may be delayed a few minutes while enroute to the
>>>>>>> usual roads for longer rides, but it's not a big problem.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> I doubt it’s even minutes, in my experience on the commute bike, which is a
>>>>>> heavy slow thing, you almost always catch at the lights etc.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Roger Merriman.
>>>>> The two biggest complaints about the protected bicycle lanes have been:
>>>>> 1. The loss of on-street parking by residents whose houses front the
>>>>> protected bike lanes. This is a legitimate concern but OTOH I don't
>>>>> think that the City is obligated to provide free street parking.
>>>>>
>>>>> 2. It's no longer possible for vehicles to use the formerly painted bike
>>>>> lane as another traffic lane so the motor vehicle lanes are narrower
>>>>> than they were before even though they are actually not narrower.
>>>> The real problem of divided bike lanes is that all of the detritus from
>>>> the sidewalk and the street end up in that bike lane and they do not make
>>>> street sweepers to clean a narrow divided lane. This rapidly makes the
>>>> curb lane unusable and the entire idea behind a divided bike lane silly.
>>>> This is why intelligent cyclists remain in the street instead of riding
>>>> in a divided bike lane.
>>>>
>>> They most certainly do, see them out and about now and then, giving stuff a
>>> clean. But since my commute bike is a old MTB it’s hardly something that
>>> worries me!
>>
>> There is a divided bike lane on the Dumbarton bridge. This thing is
>> FILLED with broken glass that washes in from the traffic lanes and all
>> other sorts of garbage. They DID make a sweeper especially for this lane.
>> They have used it ONCE that I can recall in the last 10 years. It doesn't
>> matter if they make them if you don't use them. The require street
>> sweepers around here go by once every 3 months and they do not have times
>> when the streets are supposed to be cleared for it do most of the garbage
>> remains on the streets. I really don't have any idea of how you can be a
>> real bike rider and not know this. It isn't as if it's a secret.
>>
> Most of the “road sweepers” I’ve seen for quite a while are not full sized
> van/lorry sized but really quite wee things that also do pavements and so
> on, hence I guess why they are bought, plus get the man and cart still in
> some places.
>
> In short it’s perfectly possible to clean such places if the council wishes
> to.

Speaking here from the American Midwest: I've never seen a small sized
street sweeper. All those I've seen are large trucks, perhaps 25 feet
long and perhaps 8 feet wide, not counting the rotary brooms mounted on
the side. They certainly won't fit down a "protected" bike lane.

I've mentioned this before, but I know a person who works for a fairly
large midwest city. She was on the team touring representatives of two
other cities around, to show off her city's accomplishments. The tour
went by the few blocks of "protected" bike lanes recently installed, and
an official from another city asked "Oh, so you've bought narrow
sweepers to keep those free of debris?" The responsible person from her
city said something like "Oh... um... no, not yet."

My bet is they never will.

About sweeping bike lanes manually: I just don't believe that's ever
going to be an American program. The closest I've seen is sheriff
deputies monitoring crews of low-risk county prisoners, picking up trash
along freeways.

On two short bike-ped cut through paths near me, I've twice had to take
a small hand broom to clear broken glass generated by idiots breaking
bottles. I'm sure the local government would never bother about it.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 8/6/2021 5:57 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Fri, 6 Aug 2021 14:15:41 -0700, sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 8/6/2021 11:58 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>> They most certainly do, see them out and about now and then, giving stuff a
>>> clean. But since my commute bike is a old MTB it’s hardly something that
>>> worries me!
>>>
>>> Roger Merriman.
>>
>> Tom is wrong of course™, but our street cleaning contractor doesn't have
>> such a sweeper/vacuum. There aren't that many miles of protected bike
>> lanes to clean so they just sweep the stuff into the road where it gets
>> picked up.
>
> That is something that is sort of confusing. the U.S. has all those
> people "on relief" essentially being paid for not working. Why not get
> them off their butts and have them sweep the roads?
>

[clutches pearls with a gasp] Oh, you brute!

How insensitive to the sainted holy bums! They can't be
expected to work; they have rights! Besides it would
probably interfere with their dope/alcohol haze.

Taxpayers, of course, have no rights.

carry on.
--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Friday, August 6, 2021 at 4:21:44 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 8/6/2021 6:32 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> > Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> On Friday, August 6, 2021 at 11:58:54 AM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote:
> >>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>> On Tuesday, August 3, 2021 at 2:48:42 PM UTC-7, sms wrote:
> >>>>> On 8/3/2021 10:12 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> >>>>>> sms <scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>> On 8/2/2021 1:11 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> <snip>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> The problems with theses and others is when the cyclists numbers are up as
> >>>>>>>> it’s difficult to pass, not a problem for myself as very few others go my
> >>>>>>>> way.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Yes, there have already been a couple of complaints by "serious"
> >>>>>>> cyclists that the protected bike lanes make it difficult to pass. But
> >>>>>>> these are not lanes that are many miles long, they are put in in areas
> >>>>>>> where there has been a problem with "vehicles behaving badly." For A
> >>>>>>> recreational cyclist may be delayed a few minutes while enroute to the
> >>>>>>> usual roads for longer rides, but it's not a big problem.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> I doubt it’s even minutes, in my experience on the commute bike, which is a
> >>>>>> heavy slow thing, you almost always catch at the lights etc.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Roger Merriman.
> >>>>> The two biggest complaints about the protected bicycle lanes have been:
> >>>>> 1. The loss of on-street parking by residents whose houses front the
> >>>>> protected bike lanes. This is a legitimate concern but OTOH I don't
> >>>>> think that the City is obligated to provide free street parking.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 2. It's no longer possible for vehicles to use the formerly painted bike
> >>>>> lane as another traffic lane so the motor vehicle lanes are narrower
> >>>>> than they were before even though they are actually not narrower.
> >>>> The real problem of divided bike lanes is that all of the detritus from
> >>>> the sidewalk and the street end up in that bike lane and they do not make
> >>>> street sweepers to clean a narrow divided lane. This rapidly makes the
> >>>> curb lane unusable and the entire idea behind a divided bike lane silly.
> >>>> This is why intelligent cyclists remain in the street instead of riding
> >>>> in a divided bike lane.
> >>>>
> >>> They most certainly do, see them out and about now and then, giving stuff a
> >>> clean. But since my commute bike is a old MTB it’s hardly something that
> >>> worries me!
> >>
> >> There is a divided bike lane on the Dumbarton bridge. This thing is
> >> FILLED with broken glass that washes in from the traffic lanes and all
> >> other sorts of garbage. They DID make a sweeper especially for this lane.
> >> They have used it ONCE that I can recall in the last 10 years. It doesn't
> >> matter if they make them if you don't use them. The require street
> >> sweepers around here go by once every 3 months and they do not have times
> >> when the streets are supposed to be cleared for it do most of the garbage
> >> remains on the streets. I really don't have any idea of how you can be a
> >> real bike rider and not know this. It isn't as if it's a secret.
> >>
> > Most of the “road sweepers” I’ve seen for quite a while are not full sized
> > van/lorry sized but really quite wee things that also do pavements and so
> > on, hence I guess why they are bought, plus get the man and cart still in
> > some places.
> >
> > In short it’s perfectly possible to clean such places if the council wishes
> > to.
> Speaking here from the American Midwest: I've never seen a small sized
> street sweeper. All those I've seen are large trucks, perhaps 25 feet
> long and perhaps 8 feet wide, not counting the rotary brooms mounted on
> the side. They certainly won't fit down a "protected" bike lane.
>
> I've mentioned this before, but I know a person who works for a fairly
> large midwest city. She was on the team touring representatives of two
> other cities around, to show off her city's accomplishments. The tour
> went by the few blocks of "protected" bike lanes recently installed, and
> an official from another city asked "Oh, so you've bought narrow
> sweepers to keep those free of debris?" The responsible person from her
> city said something like "Oh... um... no, not yet."
>
> My bet is they never will.
>
> About sweeping bike lanes manually: I just don't believe that's ever
> going to be an American program. The closest I've seen is sheriff
> deputies monitoring crews of low-risk county prisoners, picking up trash
> along freeways.
>
> On two short bike-ped cut through paths near me, I've twice had to take
> a small hand broom to clear broken glass generated by idiots breaking
> bottles. I'm sure the local government would never bother about it.

We have the machinery: https://bikeportland.org/2013/11/18/meet-portlands-new-bike-path-sized-street-sweeper-97302 That doesn't mean sheltered facilities will get swept. Bike facilities are always full of crap during winter with gravel, blow-down and old snow, but there are times when the sweeping is good, and you have a clean bike lane, but the sheltered lane is still full of crap. And the sheltered lane is just separated with dopy plastic posts/pickets that wouldn't protect you from an angry moose let alone a car.. They will, however, prevent sweeping. I don't get the plastic posts/pickets. https://www.portland.gov/sites/default/files/styles/banner_21_9_800w/public/2020/dsc_0195.jpg?itok=vRlup-O2 Note chute block.

-- Jay Beattie.

On Fri, 06 Aug 2021 18:36:04 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 8/6/2021 5:57 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Fri, 6 Aug 2021 14:15:41 -0700, sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 8/6/2021 11:58 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>
>>> <snip>
>>>
>>>> They most certainly do, see them out and about now and then, giving stuff a
>>>> clean. But since my commute bike is a old MTB it’s hardly something that
>>>> worries me!
>>>>
>>>> Roger Merriman.
>>>
>>> Tom is wrong of course™, but our street cleaning contractor doesn't have
>>> such a sweeper/vacuum. There aren't that many miles of protected bike
>>> lanes to clean so they just sweep the stuff into the road where it gets
>>> picked up.
>>
>> That is something that is sort of confusing. the U.S. has all those
>> people "on relief" essentially being paid for not working. Why not get
>> them off their butts and have them sweep the roads?
>>
>
>[clutches pearls with a gasp] Oh, you brute!
>
>How insensitive to the sainted holy bums! They can't be
>expected to work; they have rights! Besides it would
>probably interfere with their dope/alcohol haze.
>
>Taxpayers, of course, have no rights.
>
>carry on.

Unfortunately, from what I read in the "News" you are correct :-)

But tweren't always like that. Years ago - maybe the early 1960's I
was stationed at Bangor Maine and there was an article in the paper
about a chap that was jailed for not shoveling the sidewalks.

It seems that Maine had a law that if you were drawing any sort of
"relief".i.e dole that the Town/City/State could require you to work
and while you can plow roads the truck mounted plows are too large to
clear sidewalks so after every snow they had the unemployed fall out
with shovels and clean the sidewalks.

This bloke didn't show up so they questioned him and his excuse was "I
don't have a hat", so they bought him a hat. Then it was gloves and
then a "muffler" and so on and finally he ran out of excuses and they
jailed him for 90 days :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 8/6/2021 9:12 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Fri, 06 Aug 2021 18:36:04 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>> On 8/6/2021 5:57 PM, John B. wrote:
>>> On Fri, 6 Aug 2021 14:15:41 -0700, sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 8/6/2021 11:58 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>>
>>>> <snip>
>>>>
>>>>> They most certainly do, see them out and about now and then, giving stuff a
>>>>> clean. But since my commute bike is a old MTB it’s hardly something that
>>>>> worries me!
>>>>>
>>>>> Roger Merriman.
>>>>
>>>> Tom is wrong of course™, but our street cleaning contractor doesn't have
>>>> such a sweeper/vacuum. There aren't that many miles of protected bike
>>>> lanes to clean so they just sweep the stuff into the road where it gets
>>>> picked up.
>>>
>>> That is something that is sort of confusing. the U.S. has all those
>>> people "on relief" essentially being paid for not working. Why not get
>>> them off their butts and have them sweep the roads?
>>>
>>
>> [clutches pearls with a gasp] Oh, you brute!
>>
>> How insensitive to the sainted holy bums! They can't be
>> expected to work; they have rights! Besides it would
>> probably interfere with their dope/alcohol haze.
>>
>> Taxpayers, of course, have no rights.
>>
>> carry on.
>
> Unfortunately, from what I read in the "News" you are correct :-)
>
> But tweren't always like that. Years ago - maybe the early 1960's I
> was stationed at Bangor Maine and there was an article in the paper
> about a chap that was jailed for not shoveling the sidewalks.
>
> It seems that Maine had a law that if you were drawing any sort of
> "relief".i.e dole that the Town/City/State could require you to work
> and while you can plow roads the truck mounted plows are too large to
> clear sidewalks so after every snow they had the unemployed fall out
> with shovels and clean the sidewalks.
>
> This bloke didn't show up so they questioned him and his excuse was "I
> don't have a hat", so they bought him a hat. Then it was gloves and
> then a "muffler" and so on and finally he ran out of excuses and they
> jailed him for 90 days :-)

I'd love to see society move in that direction - to have miscreants do
public work as penance.

One distant acquaintance of mine (I usually succeed in avoiding him) did
jail time for various crimes. At some stage in his rehabilitation he and
other inmates did landscaping work for the city. It seemed like a good
idea to me.

And winter sidewalks should certainly be cleaned. When my wife and I
walk in the winter, it's not uncommon to find icy, hazardous sidewalks,
and that guys who plow parking lots push the snow into mounds blocking
sidewalks.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Saturday, August 7, 2021 at 8:16:30 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 8/6/2021 9:12 PM, John B. wrote:
> > On Fri, 06 Aug 2021 18:36:04 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >
> >> On 8/6/2021 5:57 PM, John B. wrote:
> >>> On Fri, 6 Aug 2021 14:15:41 -0700, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On 8/6/2021 11:58 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> <snip>
> >>>>
> >>>>> They most certainly do, see them out and about now and then, giving stuff a
> >>>>> clean. But since my commute bike is a old MTB it’s hardly something that
> >>>>> worries me!
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Roger Merriman.
> >>>>
> >>>> Tom is wrong of course™, but our street cleaning contractor doesn't have
> >>>> such a sweeper/vacuum. There aren't that many miles of protected bike
> >>>> lanes to clean so they just sweep the stuff into the road where it gets
> >>>> picked up.
> >>>
> >>> That is something that is sort of confusing. the U.S. has all those
> >>> people "on relief" essentially being paid for not working. Why not get
> >>> them off their butts and have them sweep the roads?
> >>>
> >>
> >> [clutches pearls with a gasp] Oh, you brute!
> >>
> >> How insensitive to the sainted holy bums! They can't be
> >> expected to work; they have rights! Besides it would
> >> probably interfere with their dope/alcohol haze.
> >>
> >> Taxpayers, of course, have no rights.
> >>
> >> carry on.
> >
> > Unfortunately, from what I read in the "News" you are correct :-)
> >
> > But tweren't always like that. Years ago - maybe the early 1960's I
> > was stationed at Bangor Maine and there was an article in the paper
> > about a chap that was jailed for not shoveling the sidewalks.
> >
> > It seems that Maine had a law that if you were drawing any sort of
> > "relief".i.e dole that the Town/City/State could require you to work
> > and while you can plow roads the truck mounted plows are too large to
> > clear sidewalks so after every snow they had the unemployed fall out
> > with shovels and clean the sidewalks.
> >
> > This bloke didn't show up so they questioned him and his excuse was "I
> > don't have a hat", so they bought him a hat. Then it was gloves and
> > then a "muffler" and so on and finally he ran out of excuses and they
> > jailed him for 90 days :-)
> I'd love to see society move in that direction - to have miscreants do
> public work as penance.
>
> One distant acquaintance of mine (I usually succeed in avoiding him) did
> jail time for various crimes. At some stage in his rehabilitation he and
> other inmates did landscaping work for the city. It seemed like a good
> idea to me.
>
> And winter sidewalks should certainly be cleaned. When my wife and I
> walk in the winter, it's not uncommon to find icy, hazardous sidewalks,
> and that guys who plow parking lots push the snow into mounds blocking
> sidewalks.
>
I'm too lazy to look up the literature, but we've been through this with poor farms and debtor's prison, which society rejected in a much more conservative era. Some state are experimenting with workfare programs with mixed results, but in any event, its not like this hasn't been thought about -- a lot. As for prison labor, yes, unions object -- at least for manufacturing jobs. https://aflcio.org/about/leadership/statements/exploitation-prison-labor I don't think they would care too much about the local jail inmates and work-release or probation guys and gals picking garbage out of the bike lanes.

-- Jay Beattie.

Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On 8/6/2021 6:32 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> Tom Kunich <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Friday, August 6, 2021 at 11:58:54 AM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Tuesday, August 3, 2021 at 2:48:42 PM UTC-7, sms wrote:
>>>>>> On 8/3/2021 10:12 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>>>>> sms <scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 8/2/2021 1:11 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> <snip>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The problems with theses and others is when the cyclists numbers are up as
>>>>>>>>> it’s difficult to pass, not a problem for myself as very few others go my
>>>>>>>>> way.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yes, there have already been a couple of complaints by "serious"
>>>>>>>> cyclists that the protected bike lanes make it difficult to pass. But
>>>>>>>> these are not lanes that are many miles long, they are put in in areas
>>>>>>>> where there has been a problem with "vehicles behaving badly." For A
>>>>>>>> recreational cyclist may be delayed a few minutes while enroute to the
>>>>>>>> usual roads for longer rides, but it's not a big problem.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I doubt it’s even minutes, in my experience on the commute bike, which is a
>>>>>>> heavy slow thing, you almost always catch at the lights etc.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Roger Merriman.
>>>>>> The two biggest complaints about the protected bicycle lanes have been:
>>>>>> 1. The loss of on-street parking by residents whose houses front the
>>>>>> protected bike lanes. This is a legitimate concern but OTOH I don't
>>>>>> think that the City is obligated to provide free street parking.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2. It's no longer possible for vehicles to use the formerly painted bike
>>>>>> lane as another traffic lane so the motor vehicle lanes are narrower
>>>>>> than they were before even though they are actually not narrower.
>>>>> The real problem of divided bike lanes is that all of the detritus from
>>>>> the sidewalk and the street end up in that bike lane and they do not make
>>>>> street sweepers to clean a narrow divided lane. This rapidly makes the
>>>>> curb lane unusable and the entire idea behind a divided bike lane silly.
>>>>> This is why intelligent cyclists remain in the street instead of riding
>>>>> in a divided bike lane.
>>>>>
>>>> They most certainly do, see them out and about now and then, giving stuff a
>>>> clean. But since my commute bike is a old MTB it’s hardly something that
>>>> worries me!
>>>
>>> There is a divided bike lane on the Dumbarton bridge. This thing is
>>> FILLED with broken glass that washes in from the traffic lanes and all
>>> other sorts of garbage. They DID make a sweeper especially for this lane.
>>> They have used it ONCE that I can recall in the last 10 years. It doesn't
>>> matter if they make them if you don't use them. The require street
>>> sweepers around here go by once every 3 months and they do not have times
>>> when the streets are supposed to be cleared for it do most of the garbage
>>> remains on the streets. I really don't have any idea of how you can be a
>>> real bike rider and not know this. It isn't as if it's a secret.
>>>
>> Most of the “road sweepers” I’ve seen for quite a while are not full sized
>> van/lorry sized but really quite wee things that also do pavements and so
>> on, hence I guess why they are bought, plus get the man and cart still in
>> some places.
>>
>> In short it’s perfectly possible to clean such places if the council wishes
>> to.
>
> Speaking here from the American Midwest: I've never seen a small sized
> street sweeper. All those I've seen are large trucks, perhaps 25 feet
> long and perhaps 8 feet wide, not counting the rotary brooms mounted on
> the side. They certainly won't fit down a "protected" bike lane.
>
> I've mentioned this before, but I know a person who works for a fairly
> large midwest city. She was on the team touring representatives of two
> other cities around, to show off her city's accomplishments. The tour
> went by the few blocks of "protected" bike lanes recently installed, and
> an official from another city asked "Oh, so you've bought narrow
> sweepers to keep those free of debris?" The responsible person from her
> city said something like "Oh... um... no, not yet."
>
> My bet is they never will.
>
> About sweeping bike lanes manually: I just don't believe that's ever
> going to be an American program. The closest I've seen is sheriff
> deputies monitoring crews of low-risk county prisoners, picking up trash
> along freeways.
>
Used to where I grew up have a guy and a cart do the lanes, but sadly when
he retired they now just used tractors which are rather brutal and prone to
punctures for cars mostly!

> On two short bike-ped cut through paths near me, I've twice had to take
> a small hand broom to clear broken glass generated by idiots breaking
> bottles. I'm sure the local government would never bother about it.
>
>
>
It’s not done that regularly, and I suspect it’s done for the walkers than
the riders.

Have a few points that do collect glass but most is fine, and big apples
seem to resist glass, but struggle like Marathon plus with hawthorn if the
council has cut it back leaving shards.

Roger Merriman.

On 8/7/2021 11:52 AM, jbeattie wrote:
> On Saturday, August 7, 2021 at 8:16:30 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 8/6/2021 9:12 PM, John B. wrote:
>>> On Fri, 06 Aug 2021 18:36:04 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 8/6/2021 5:57 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, 6 Aug 2021 14:15:41 -0700, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 8/6/2021 11:58 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <snip>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> They most certainly do, see them out and about now and then, giving stuff a
>>>>>>> clean. But since my commute bike is a old MTB it’s hardly something that
>>>>>>> worries me!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Roger Merriman.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tom is wrong of course™, but our street cleaning contractor doesn't have
>>>>>> such a sweeper/vacuum. There aren't that many miles of protected bike
>>>>>> lanes to clean so they just sweep the stuff into the road where it gets
>>>>>> picked up.
>>>>>
>>>>> That is something that is sort of confusing. the U.S. has all those
>>>>> people "on relief" essentially being paid for not working. Why not get
>>>>> them off their butts and have them sweep the roads?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> [clutches pearls with a gasp] Oh, you brute!
>>>>
>>>> How insensitive to the sainted holy bums! They can't be
>>>> expected to work; they have rights! Besides it would
>>>> probably interfere with their dope/alcohol haze.
>>>>
>>>> Taxpayers, of course, have no rights.
>>>>
>>>> carry on.
>>>
>>> Unfortunately, from what I read in the "News" you are correct :-)
>>>
>>> But tweren't always like that. Years ago - maybe the early 1960's I
>>> was stationed at Bangor Maine and there was an article in the paper
>>> about a chap that was jailed for not shoveling the sidewalks.
>>>
>>> It seems that Maine had a law that if you were drawing any sort of
>>> "relief".i.e dole that the Town/City/State could require you to work
>>> and while you can plow roads the truck mounted plows are too large to
>>> clear sidewalks so after every snow they had the unemployed fall out
>>> with shovels and clean the sidewalks.
>>>
>>> This bloke didn't show up so they questioned him and his excuse was "I
>>> don't have a hat", so they bought him a hat. Then it was gloves and
>>> then a "muffler" and so on and finally he ran out of excuses and they
>>> jailed him for 90 days :-)
>> I'd love to see society move in that direction - to have miscreants do
>> public work as penance.
>>
>> One distant acquaintance of mine (I usually succeed in avoiding him) did
>> jail time for various crimes. At some stage in his rehabilitation he and
>> other inmates did landscaping work for the city. It seemed like a good
>> idea to me.
>>
>> And winter sidewalks should certainly be cleaned. When my wife and I
>> walk in the winter, it's not uncommon to find icy, hazardous sidewalks,
>> and that guys who plow parking lots push the snow into mounds blocking
>> sidewalks.
>>
> I'm too lazy to look up the literature, but we've been through this with poor farms and debtor's prison, which society rejected in a much more conservative era. Some state are experimenting with workfare programs with mixed results, but in any event, its not like this hasn't been thought about -- a lot. As for prison labor, yes, unions object -- at least for manufacturing jobs. https://aflcio.org/about/leadership/statements/exploitation-prison-labor I don't think they would care too much about the local jail inmates and work-release or probation guys and gals picking garbage out of the bike lanes.

I'm sure everything we discuss here has been thought about a lot. Well,
except for the really unusual topics - the ones about bicycles.

I'm aware of the union objections. At one plant where I worked, there
was lots of money being spent to solve the problem of getting mass
produced parts into uniform orientation before either further processing
or packaging for shipment. We're talking technology far beyond vibratory
bowl feeders (which are pretty cool). We're talking machine vision
systems and multiple robots, back when those were really cutting edge
and very expensive.

Someone proposed hiring people from an agency that gives jobs to the
mentally handicapped. The unions would have none of it, because the
proposal included lower wages for those handicapped people. The union
worried about a slippery slope.

My experience with unions was sometimes good, sometimes bad, like almost
every other human situation.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Sat, 7 Aug 2021 11:16:26 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 8/6/2021 9:12 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Fri, 06 Aug 2021 18:36:04 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 8/6/2021 5:57 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 6 Aug 2021 14:15:41 -0700, sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 8/6/2021 11:58 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> <snip>
>>>>>
>>>>>> They most certainly do, see them out and about now and then, giving stuff a
>>>>>> clean. But since my commute bike is a old MTB it’s hardly something that
>>>>>> worries me!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Roger Merriman.
>>>>>
>>>>> Tom is wrong of course™, but our street cleaning contractor doesn't have
>>>>> such a sweeper/vacuum. There aren't that many miles of protected bike
>>>>> lanes to clean so they just sweep the stuff into the road where it gets
>>>>> picked up.
>>>>
>>>> That is something that is sort of confusing. the U.S. has all those
>>>> people "on relief" essentially being paid for not working. Why not get
>>>> them off their butts and have them sweep the roads?
>>>>
>>>
>>> [clutches pearls with a gasp] Oh, you brute!
>>>
>>> How insensitive to the sainted holy bums! They can't be
>>> expected to work; they have rights! Besides it would
>>> probably interfere with their dope/alcohol haze.
>>>
>>> Taxpayers, of course, have no rights.
>>>
>>> carry on.
>>
>> Unfortunately, from what I read in the "News" you are correct :-)
>>
>> But tweren't always like that. Years ago - maybe the early 1960's I
>> was stationed at Bangor Maine and there was an article in the paper
>> about a chap that was jailed for not shoveling the sidewalks.
>>
>> It seems that Maine had a law that if you were drawing any sort of
>> "relief".i.e dole that the Town/City/State could require you to work
>> and while you can plow roads the truck mounted plows are too large to
>> clear sidewalks so after every snow they had the unemployed fall out
>> with shovels and clean the sidewalks.
>>
>> This bloke didn't show up so they questioned him and his excuse was "I
>> don't have a hat", so they bought him a hat. Then it was gloves and
>> then a "muffler" and so on and finally he ran out of excuses and they
>> jailed him for 90 days :-)
>
>I'd love to see society move in that direction - to have miscreants do
>public work as penance.
>
>One distant acquaintance of mine (I usually succeed in avoiding him) did
>jail time for various crimes. At some stage in his rehabilitation he and
>other inmates did landscaping work for the city. It seemed like a good
>idea to me.
>
>And winter sidewalks should certainly be cleaned. When my wife and I
>walk in the winter, it's not uncommon to find icy, hazardous sidewalks,
>and that guys who plow parking lots push the snow into mounds blocking
>sidewalks.

No, no, no! Frank those poor criminals shouldn't be subjected to cruel
and unusual punishments they should be rehabilitated!

Along those lines I remember reading about prisoners in a California
jail partitioning the State as they were being subjected to "cruel and
unusual" punishment as they didn't have color TV.
I don't remember when or where I read it or whether it was true or
not but I also remember that the article said that they won their
case.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sat, 7 Aug 2021 08:52:19 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie <jbeattie57@msn.com>
wrote:

>On Saturday, August 7, 2021 at 8:16:30 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 8/6/2021 9:12 PM, John B. wrote:
>> > On Fri, 06 Aug 2021 18:36:04 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> >
>> >> On 8/6/2021 5:57 PM, John B. wrote:
>> >>> On Fri, 6 Aug 2021 14:15:41 -0700, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
>> >>> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> On 8/6/2021 11:58 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> <snip>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> They most certainly do, see them out and about now and then, giving stuff a
>> >>>>> clean. But since my commute bike is a old MTB it’s hardly something that
>> >>>>> worries me!
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Roger Merriman.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Tom is wrong of course™, but our street cleaning contractor doesn't have
>> >>>> such a sweeper/vacuum. There aren't that many miles of protected bike
>> >>>> lanes to clean so they just sweep the stuff into the road where it gets
>> >>>> picked up.
>> >>>
>> >>> That is something that is sort of confusing. the U.S. has all those
>> >>> people "on relief" essentially being paid for not working. Why not get
>> >>> them off their butts and have them sweep the roads?
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> [clutches pearls with a gasp] Oh, you brute!
>> >>
>> >> How insensitive to the sainted holy bums! They can't be
>> >> expected to work; they have rights! Besides it would
>> >> probably interfere with their dope/alcohol haze.
>> >>
>> >> Taxpayers, of course, have no rights.
>> >>
>> >> carry on.
>> >
>> > Unfortunately, from what I read in the "News" you are correct :-)
>> >
>> > But tweren't always like that. Years ago - maybe the early 1960's I
>> > was stationed at Bangor Maine and there was an article in the paper
>> > about a chap that was jailed for not shoveling the sidewalks.
>> >
>> > It seems that Maine had a law that if you were drawing any sort of
>> > "relief".i.e dole that the Town/City/State could require you to work
>> > and while you can plow roads the truck mounted plows are too large to
>> > clear sidewalks so after every snow they had the unemployed fall out
>> > with shovels and clean the sidewalks.
>> >
>> > This bloke didn't show up so they questioned him and his excuse was "I
>> > don't have a hat", so they bought him a hat. Then it was gloves and
>> > then a "muffler" and so on and finally he ran out of excuses and they
>> > jailed him for 90 days :-)
>> I'd love to see society move in that direction - to have miscreants do
>> public work as penance.
>>
>> One distant acquaintance of mine (I usually succeed in avoiding him) did
>> jail time for various crimes. At some stage in his rehabilitation he and
>> other inmates did landscaping work for the city. It seemed like a good
>> idea to me.
>>
>> And winter sidewalks should certainly be cleaned. When my wife and I
>> walk in the winter, it's not uncommon to find icy, hazardous sidewalks,
>> and that guys who plow parking lots push the snow into mounds blocking
>> sidewalks.
>>
>I'm too lazy to look up the literature, but we've been through this with poor farms and debtor's prison, which society rejected in a much more conservative era. Some state are experimenting with workfare programs with mixed results, but in any event, its not like this hasn't been thought about -- a lot. As for prison labor, yes, unions object -- at least for manufacturing jobs. https://aflcio.org/about/leadership/statements/exploitation-prison-labor I don't think they would care too much about the local jail inmates and work-release or probation guys and gals picking garbage out of the bike lanes.
>
>-- Jay Beattie.

I believe that some states have.had prison farms where the prisoners
actually worked. I once compared costs to the states of prison farms
and conventional prisons an I seem to remember that costs, per
prisoner, were significantly lower (well they would be) on the prison
farms.

I believe also that a number of state prisons still employ the
prisoners in making auto "license plates".
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 8/6/2021 3:57 PM, John B. wrote:

<snip>

> That is something that is sort of confusing. the U.S. has all those
> people "on relief" essentially being paid for not working.

I think you've been listening to Faux News too much if you believe that.

On 8/6/2021 3:32 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:

<snip>

> Most of the “road sweepers” I’ve seen for quite a while are not full sized
> van/lorry sized but really quite wee things that also do pavements and so
> on, hence I guess why they are bought, plus get the man and cart still in
> some places.
>
> In short it’s perfectly possible to clean such places if the council wishes
> to.

The quality of the pavement, and the level of cleaning, depends on the
jurisdiction. The Dumbarton Bridge jurisdiction is CalTrans.

Cities spend however much money they want on road maintenance and
cleaning. In my city we keep our roads well-paved and clean though we
did cut back on the paving schedule during Covid. Go a few blocks across
the border into San Jose and things change dramatically even though the
homes in west San Jose are comparably priced.

It the bike lane on the Dumbarton bridge is full of glass then it would
be prudent to contact CalTrans and ask them to clean it. It's not a
heavily used bike lane.

On Sat, 7 Aug 2021 18:00:53 -0700, sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com>
wrote:

>On 8/6/2021 3:57 PM, John B. wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>> That is something that is sort of confusing. the U.S. has all those
>> people "on relief" essentially being paid for not working.
>
>I think you've been listening to Faux News too much if you believe that.

https://www.labormarketinfo.edd.ca.gov/Publications/Labor-Market-Analysis/ca-long-term-unemployed-2020.pdf

The above states that as December 2020 there were some 183,400 long
term, i.e. 27 weeks or more, unemployed in California, of whom some
112,300 were unemployed for 52 weeks or more..

One would assume that they were being supported in some manner,
wouldn't one?
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 8/7/2021 9:07 PM, sms wrote:
> On 8/6/2021 3:32 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>
>>
>> In short it’s perfectly possible to clean such places if the council
>> wishes
>> to.
>
>...
>
> It the bike lane on the Dumbarton bridge is full of glass then it would
> be prudent to contact CalTrans and ask them to clean it. It's not a
> heavily used bike lane.

Yes, it would be prudent to notify the proper authority that they need
to remove debris from bike lanes. And yes, it's perfectly possible for
those authorities to clean such places if they choose.

The facts remain that bike lanes do gather much more debris than normal
traffic lanes; and that "protected" ones are more difficult and
expensive to clean; and that many if not most jurisdictions installing
them do not have plans to keep them clean.

And even those jurisdictions that have reasonable cleaning strategies
are unlikely to respond instantly to a request. If they were, I would
not have seen nearly the amount of debris I've seen in bike lanes. The
people responsible for such maintenance have higher priorities.

--
- Frank Krygowski

jbeattie <jbeattie57@msn.com> writes:

> On Saturday, August 7, 2021 at 8:16:30 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 8/6/2021 9:12 PM, John B. wrote:
>> > On Fri, 06 Aug 2021 18:36:04 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> >
>> >> On 8/6/2021 5:57 PM, John B. wrote:
>> >>> On Fri, 6 Aug 2021 14:15:41 -0700, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
>> >>> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> On 8/6/2021 11:58 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> <snip>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> They most certainly do, see them out and about now and then,
>> >>>>> giving stuff a
>> >>>>> clean. But since my commute bike is a old MTB it’s hardly
>> >>>>> something that
>> >>>>> worries me!
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Roger Merriman.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Tom is wrong of course™, but our street cleaning contractor doesn't have
>> >>>> such a sweeper/vacuum. There aren't that many miles of protected bike
>> >>>> lanes to clean so they just sweep the stuff into the road where it gets
>> >>>> picked up.
>> >>>
>> >>> That is something that is sort of confusing. the U.S. has all those
>> >>> people "on relief" essentially being paid for not working. Why not get
>> >>> them off their butts and have them sweep the roads?
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> [clutches pearls with a gasp] Oh, you brute!
>> >>
>> >> How insensitive to the sainted holy bums! They can't be
>> >> expected to work; they have rights! Besides it would
>> >> probably interfere with their dope/alcohol haze.
>> >>
>> >> Taxpayers, of course, have no rights.
>> >>
>> >> carry on.
>> >
>> > Unfortunately, from what I read in the "News" you are correct :-)
>> >
>> > But tweren't always like that. Years ago - maybe the early 1960's I
>> > was stationed at Bangor Maine and there was an article in the paper
>> > about a chap that was jailed for not shoveling the sidewalks.
>> >
>> > It seems that Maine had a law that if you were drawing any sort of
>> > "relief".i.e dole that the Town/City/State could require you to work
>> > and while you can plow roads the truck mounted plows are too large to
>> > clear sidewalks so after every snow they had the unemployed fall out
>> > with shovels and clean the sidewalks.
>> >
>> > This bloke didn't show up so they questioned him and his excuse was "I
>> > don't have a hat", so they bought him a hat. Then it was gloves and
>> > then a "muffler" and so on and finally he ran out of excuses and they
>> > jailed him for 90 days :-)
>> I'd love to see society move in that direction - to have miscreants do
>> public work as penance.
>>
>> One distant acquaintance of mine (I usually succeed in avoiding him) did
>> jail time for various crimes. At some stage in his rehabilitation he and
>> other inmates did landscaping work for the city. It seemed like a good
>> idea to me.
>>
>> And winter sidewalks should certainly be cleaned. When my wife and I
>> walk in the winter, it's not uncommon to find icy, hazardous sidewalks,
>> and that guys who plow parking lots push the snow into mounds blocking
>> sidewalks.
>>
> I'm too lazy to look up the literature, but we've been through this
> with poor farms and debtor's prison, which society rejected in a much
> more conservative era. Some state are experimenting with workfare
> programs with mixed results, but in any event, its not like this
> hasn't been thought about -- a lot. As for prison labor, yes, unions
> object -- at least for manufacturing
> jobs. https://aflcio.org/about/leadership/statements/exploitation-prison-labor
> I don't think they would care too much about the local jail inmates
> and work-release or probation guys and gals picking garbage out of the
> bike lanes.

Or fighting fires in California for $1 per hour. Here's Gavin Newsom on
a rare good day:

https://abc7.com/inmate-firefighters-california-incarcerated-cdcr-gavin-newsom/6419175

From what I've heard getting out of jail to pick trash in the open air
is more a privilege than a penance for most. Doing it as community
service as a condition of probation is more like a penance.

On Monday, August 9, 2021 at 9:00:19 AM UTC-7, Radey Shouman wrote:
> jbeattie <jbeat...@msn.com> writes:
>
> > On Saturday, August 7, 2021 at 8:16:30 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >> On 8/6/2021 9:12 PM, John B. wrote:
> >> > On Fri, 06 Aug 2021 18:36:04 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> On 8/6/2021 5:57 PM, John B. wrote:
> >> >>> On Fri, 6 Aug 2021 14:15:41 -0700, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
> >> >>> wrote:
> >> >>>
> >> >>>> On 8/6/2021 11:58 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> <snip>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>> They most certainly do, see them out and about now and then,
> >> >>>>> giving stuff a
> >> >>>>> clean. But since my commute bike is a old MTB it’s hardly
> >> >>>>> something that
> >> >>>>> worries me!
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> Roger Merriman.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Tom is wrong of course™, but our street cleaning contractor doesn't have
> >> >>>> such a sweeper/vacuum. There aren't that many miles of protected bike
> >> >>>> lanes to clean so they just sweep the stuff into the road where it gets
> >> >>>> picked up.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> That is something that is sort of confusing. the U.S. has all those
> >> >>> people "on relief" essentially being paid for not working. Why not get
> >> >>> them off their butts and have them sweep the roads?
> >> >>>
> >> >>
> >> >> [clutches pearls with a gasp] Oh, you brute!
> >> >>
> >> >> How insensitive to the sainted holy bums! They can't be
> >> >> expected to work; they have rights! Besides it would
> >> >> probably interfere with their dope/alcohol haze.
> >> >>
> >> >> Taxpayers, of course, have no rights.
> >> >>
> >> >> carry on.
> >> >
> >> > Unfortunately, from what I read in the "News" you are correct :-)
> >> >
> >> > But tweren't always like that. Years ago - maybe the early 1960's I
> >> > was stationed at Bangor Maine and there was an article in the paper
> >> > about a chap that was jailed for not shoveling the sidewalks.
> >> >
> >> > It seems that Maine had a law that if you were drawing any sort of
> >> > "relief".i.e dole that the Town/City/State could require you to work
> >> > and while you can plow roads the truck mounted plows are too large to
> >> > clear sidewalks so after every snow they had the unemployed fall out
> >> > with shovels and clean the sidewalks.
> >> >
> >> > This bloke didn't show up so they questioned him and his excuse was "I
> >> > don't have a hat", so they bought him a hat. Then it was gloves and
> >> > then a "muffler" and so on and finally he ran out of excuses and they
> >> > jailed him for 90 days :-)
> >> I'd love to see society move in that direction - to have miscreants do
> >> public work as penance.
> >>
> >> One distant acquaintance of mine (I usually succeed in avoiding him) did
> >> jail time for various crimes. At some stage in his rehabilitation he and
> >> other inmates did landscaping work for the city. It seemed like a good
> >> idea to me.
> >>
> >> And winter sidewalks should certainly be cleaned. When my wife and I
> >> walk in the winter, it's not uncommon to find icy, hazardous sidewalks,
> >> and that guys who plow parking lots push the snow into mounds blocking
> >> sidewalks.
> >>
> > I'm too lazy to look up the literature, but we've been through this
> > with poor farms and debtor's prison, which society rejected in a much
> > more conservative era. Some state are experimenting with workfare
> > programs with mixed results, but in any event, its not like this
> > hasn't been thought about -- a lot. As for prison labor, yes, unions
> > object -- at least for manufacturing
> > jobs. https://aflcio.org/about/leadership/statements/exploitation-prison-labor
> > I don't think they would care too much about the local jail inmates
> > and work-release or probation guys and gals picking garbage out of the
> > bike lanes.
> Or fighting fires in California for $1 per hour. Here's Gavin Newsom on
> a rare good day:
>
> https://abc7.com/inmate-firefighters-california-incarcerated-cdcr-gavin-newsom/6419175
>
> From what I've heard getting out of jail to pick trash in the open air
> is more a privilege than a penance for most. Doing it as community
> service as a condition of probation is more like a penance.
Community service is normally a local judgement. When I was out of it I picked up a drunk driving charge. After i stopped having seizures and knew who I was I went to the police and asked them if there were any warrants out for me since I knew that I had totaled four cars. I could vaguely remember stopping behind a line of cars stopped for a police car that had blocked the lane while giving out a traffic ticket. I remember having the seizure that locked my legs out jamming on the gas. I steered around the line of cars semi-safely ripping off the side of the car on a concrete wall and blacked out. They found me 8 miles away going in the wrong direction. Since I had alcohol in my system and I was completely out of it, they hauled me off to jail. The cops said there were no warrants out for me but when I went to the Hayward police department to get a fix-it ticket signed off THEY told me I had an outstanding warrant for not showing up for that "drunk driving". I was unaware that it doesn't matter how much alcohol you have in your system if you cannot walk a straight line and talk sensibly. In any case my Neurologist gave me a statement that in the condition I was at that time I might not even have known my own name. Do the judge canceled the drunk driving charge and gave me a week of community service for missing the warrant by a mere two years.

There were a two dozen people that showed up to clean up a rather small park and I was the only one doing any work. When I worked my way around to the back of the park every other person was sitting at picnic table and smoking weed. After a couple of days the park director told me I had done enough and released me. He kept the rest and made them work an extra week.

On Mon, 09 Aug 2021 12:00:16 -0400, Radey Shouman
<shouman@comcast.net> wrote:

>Or fighting fires in California for $1 per hour. Here's Gavin Newsom on
>a rare good day:
>
>https://abc7.com/inmate-firefighters-california-incarcerated-cdcr-gavin-newsom/6419175

That's mostly a symbolic gesture by the governor in order to make him
look good for the upcoming Sept 14, 2021 recall election:
<https://ballotpedia.org/Gavin_Newsom_recall,_Governor_of_California_(2019-2021)>

Becoming a professional firefighter is difficult. To the best of my
limited knowledge, having a criminal background is not a problem to
getting hired unless they fail the "good moral standing" requirement.
Between the initial application and actually getting a paying position
is difficult and involves volunteer work, training and study. It can
also take many years as the waiting list for positions is long. Many
applicants have regular jobs to support themselves while waiting.

Here are the requirements for a local fire department:
"Join Felton Fire Department"
<https://feltonfire.com/joinus/>
How many former prison inmates do you think can meet all the listed
requirements? For example, the exam physical exam:
The physical consists of a three minute stair
climb, pulling a section of hoseline, raising
a 24 foot ladder, hitting a tire with a sledgehammer,
completing squats while shouldering a section
of hose, carrying two tools around an obstacle,
dragging a 150 pound dummy around an obstacle,
and completing arm extensions while holding a
45 pound barbell. All tasks must be completed
within 7 minutes & 30 seconds to successfully pass.

Incidentally, one of the tricky problems is getting injured during the
training and probationary periods. If that happens, the prospective
applicant is likely to be dropped and told to reapply next year after
they recover. I'm not sure, but I suspect bicycle riding might not be
a good idea.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Monday, August 9, 2021 at 1:26:00 PM UTC-7, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Mon, 09 Aug 2021 12:00:16 -0400, Radey Shouman
> <sho...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> >Or fighting fires in California for $1 per hour. Here's Gavin Newsom on
> >a rare good day:
> >
> >https://abc7.com/inmate-firefighters-california-incarcerated-cdcr-gavin-newsom/6419175
> That's mostly a symbolic gesture by the governor in order to make him
> look good for the upcoming Sept 14, 2021 recall election:
> <https://ballotpedia.org/Gavin_Newsom_recall,_Governor_of_California_(2019-2021)>
>
> Becoming a professional firefighter is difficult. To the best of my
> limited knowledge, having a criminal background is not a problem to
> getting hired unless they fail the "good moral standing" requirement.
> Between the initial application and actually getting a paying position
> is difficult and involves volunteer work, training and study. It can
> also take many years as the waiting list for positions is long. Many
> applicants have regular jobs to support themselves while waiting.
>
> Here are the requirements for a local fire department:
> "Join Felton Fire Department"
> <https://feltonfire.com/joinus/>
> How many former prison inmates do you think can meet all the listed
> requirements? For example, the exam physical exam:
> The physical consists of a three minute stair
> climb, pulling a section of hoseline, raising
> a 24 foot ladder, hitting a tire with a sledgehammer,
> completing squats while shouldering a section
> of hose, carrying two tools around an obstacle,
> dragging a 150 pound dummy around an obstacle,
> and completing arm extensions while holding a
> 45 pound barbell. All tasks must be completed
> within 7 minutes & 30 seconds to successfully pass.
>
> Incidentally, one of the tricky problems is getting injured during the
> training and probationary periods. If that happens, the prospective
> applicant is likely to be dropped and told to reapply next year after
> they recover. I'm not sure, but I suspect bicycle riding might not be
> a good idea.

Jeff, you live directly in an area where you couldn't possibly want amateur fighters working. Fighting fires is a hell of a lot more complicated than holding a hose and spraying water. I rode with a group that had a high percentage of firemen in it and they had to be frightened a large percentage of the time since they wouldn't talk about it. It was the same way with soldiers. Most of them I knew wouldn't talk about combat, but they would recognize when you did something worthy.

On Tue, 10 Aug 2021 07:00:48 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>Jeff, you live directly in an area where you couldn't possibly want amateur fighters working.

Except for some paid administrative positions and various expenses,
Ben Lomond is all volunteers:
<https://benlomondfd.com/about/>
There have been several failed attempts to create paid firefighting
positions. The limiting factors are money and living space. The fire
house and property are very small.

>Fighting fires is a hell of a lot more complicated than holding a hose and spraying water. I rode with a group that had a high percentage of firemen in it and they had to be frightened a large percentage of the time since they wouldn't talk about it. It was the same way with soldiers. Most of them I knew wouldn't talk about combat, but they would recognize when you did something worthy.

Fear was not the reason they didn't want to talk about fighting fires.
They simply didn't want to talk about it while riding their bicycles.
They ride to relax and to get a way from a high stress environment.
The last thing any of them want to do is talk shop while riding or
possibly even while off duty.

I have somewhat of a similar situation. People like to corner me at
events, parties, meetings, meal, etc and bombard me with their
computer problems. After a busy day of doing battle with the
machines, the last thing I need is more of the same (and for free).
Try that with a doctor or lawyer, and they'll reply with "call my
office and make an appointment". A friend has a doctor daughter with
the same attitude. At home, it's all family and no medical advice or
discussion. At one time, you were a programmer. What did you do when
someone asked you a programming question while on a bicycle ride?

There's also another problem. You don't speak the language. Every
profession has it's own unique language liberally sprinkled with
acronyms, jargon, buzzwords, slang and idioms. These dramatically
improve communications between members of the profession and cause
problems for "outsiders" like us. To a fireman, talking to
non-firemen is like talking to a young child, which requires a drastic
reduction in vocabulary.

Firemen and soldiers will talk to you. You just need to pick the
right place and time.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Tom Kunich <cyclintom@gmail.com> writes:

> On Monday, August 9, 2021 at 1:26:00 PM UTC-7, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Mon, 09 Aug 2021 12:00:16 -0400, Radey Shouman
>> <sho...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>> >Or fighting fires in California for $1 per hour. Here's Gavin Newsom on
>> >a rare good day:
>> >
>> >https://abc7.com/inmate-firefighters-california-incarcerated-cdcr-gavin-newsom/6419175
>> That's mostly a symbolic gesture by the governor in order to make him
>> look good for the upcoming Sept 14, 2021 recall election:
>> <https://ballotpedia.org/Gavin_Newsom_recall,_Governor_of_California_(2019-2021)>
>>
>> Becoming a professional firefighter is difficult. To the best of my
>> limited knowledge, having a criminal background is not a problem to
>> getting hired unless they fail the "good moral standing" requirement.
>> Between the initial application and actually getting a paying position
>> is difficult and involves volunteer work, training and study. It can
>> also take many years as the waiting list for positions is long. Many
>> applicants have regular jobs to support themselves while waiting.
>>
>> Here are the requirements for a local fire department:
>> "Join Felton Fire Department"
>> <https://feltonfire.com/joinus/>
>> How many former prison inmates do you think can meet all the listed
>> requirements? For example, the exam physical exam:
>> The physical consists of a three minute stair
>> climb, pulling a section of hoseline, raising
>> a 24 foot ladder, hitting a tire with a sledgehammer,
>> completing squats while shouldering a section
>> of hose, carrying two tools around an obstacle,
>> dragging a 150 pound dummy around an obstacle,
>> and completing arm extensions while holding a
>> 45 pound barbell. All tasks must be completed
>> within 7 minutes & 30 seconds to successfully pass.
>>
>> Incidentally, one of the tricky problems is getting injured during the
>> training and probationary periods. If that happens, the prospective
>> applicant is likely to be dropped and told to reapply next year after
>> they recover. I'm not sure, but I suspect bicycle riding might not be
>> a good idea.
>
> Jeff, you live directly in an area where you couldn't possibly want
> amateur fighters working. Fighting fires is a hell of a lot more
> complicated than holding a hose and spraying water. I rode with a
> group that had a high percentage of firemen in it and they had to be
> frightened a large percentage of the time since they wouldn't talk
> about it. It was the same way with soldiers. Most of them I knew
> wouldn't talk about combat, but they would recognize when you did
> something worthy.

The ex-prison inmates in question already have experience fighting
wildfires while in prison -- they're not untrained or unskilled.
Suddenly when they get out, and could use an occupation to keep them in
money and out of trouble, there's a problem with their qualifications.

On 8/10/2021 4:34 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>
>
> Firemen and soldiers will talk to you. You just need to pick the
> right place and time.

I've spent time talking to Marines who provided security for a certain
U.S. embassy. (A friend of mine was in charge os security there and
invited us all to a party.) At least one of those Marines was trained as
a firefighter, and went into great detail about his experiences,
including the training exercises where he was surrounded by flames
inside a simulated burning building. As he told it, he was amazed by the
experience. He kept saying it was awesome.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Tuesday, August 10, 2021 at 3:17:34 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 8/10/2021 4:34 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> >
> >
> > Firemen and soldiers will talk to you. You just need to pick the
> > right place and time.
> I've spent time talking to Marines who provided security for a certain
> U.S. embassy. (A friend of mine was in charge os security there and
> invited us all to a party.) At least one of those Marines was trained as
> a firefighter, and went into great detail about his experiences,
> including the training exercises where he was surrounded by flames
> inside a simulated burning building. As he told it, he was amazed by the
> experience. He kept saying it was awesome.

The same thing that drives men to become Marines drives them never to say it was scary.

On Tuesday, August 10, 2021 at 2:36:04 PM UTC-7, Radey Shouman wrote:
> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> writes:
>
> > On Monday, August 9, 2021 at 1:26:00 PM UTC-7, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> On Mon, 09 Aug 2021 12:00:16 -0400, Radey Shouman
> >> <sho...@comcast.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> >Or fighting fires in California for $1 per hour. Here's Gavin Newsom on
> >> >a rare good day:
> >> >
> >> >https://abc7.com/inmate-firefighters-california-incarcerated-cdcr-gavin-newsom/6419175
> >> That's mostly a symbolic gesture by the governor in order to make him
> >> look good for the upcoming Sept 14, 2021 recall election:
> >> <https://ballotpedia.org/Gavin_Newsom_recall,_Governor_of_California_(2019-2021)>
> >>
> >> Becoming a professional firefighter is difficult. To the best of my
> >> limited knowledge, having a criminal background is not a problem to
> >> getting hired unless they fail the "good moral standing" requirement.
> >> Between the initial application and actually getting a paying position
> >> is difficult and involves volunteer work, training and study. It can
> >> also take many years as the waiting list for positions is long. Many
> >> applicants have regular jobs to support themselves while waiting.
> >>
> >> Here are the requirements for a local fire department:
> >> "Join Felton Fire Department"
> >> <https://feltonfire.com/joinus/>
> >> How many former prison inmates do you think can meet all the listed
> >> requirements? For example, the exam physical exam:
> >> The physical consists of a three minute stair
> >> climb, pulling a section of hoseline, raising
> >> a 24 foot ladder, hitting a tire with a sledgehammer,
> >> completing squats while shouldering a section
> >> of hose, carrying two tools around an obstacle,
> >> dragging a 150 pound dummy around an obstacle,
> >> and completing arm extensions while holding a
> >> 45 pound barbell. All tasks must be completed
> >> within 7 minutes & 30 seconds to successfully pass.
> >>
> >> Incidentally, one of the tricky problems is getting injured during the
> >> training and probationary periods. If that happens, the prospective
> >> applicant is likely to be dropped and told to reapply next year after
> >> they recover. I'm not sure, but I suspect bicycle riding might not be
> >> a good idea.
> >
> > Jeff, you live directly in an area where you couldn't possibly want
> > amateur fighters working. Fighting fires is a hell of a lot more
> > complicated than holding a hose and spraying water. I rode with a
> > group that had a high percentage of firemen in it and they had to be
> > frightened a large percentage of the time since they wouldn't talk
> > about it. It was the same way with soldiers. Most of them I knew
> > wouldn't talk about combat, but they would recognize when you did
> > something worthy.
> The ex-prison inmates in question already have experience fighting
> wildfires while in prison -- they're not untrained or unskilled.
> Suddenly when they get out, and could use an occupation to keep them in
> money and out of trouble, there's a problem with their qualifications.
I think that fire fighters is a good job for ex-prisoners that otherwise have a difficult time re-inserting themselves back into society. But that is NOT saying that fire fighting is either safe nor not requiring a lot of training. Fire can move almost as fast as the pressure wave of an explosion and you have to know exactly what to do and when. That is why you seldom lose firemen. One of the stories from a fireman was on 9/11. He started up a stairway in one of the buildings and suddenly felt the pressure wave above him and turned around and ran down over a dozen stories and made it to safety just as the building collapsed.