On 5/20/2023 5:29 AM, badgolferman wrote:
> nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>> In article <u498g4$r8pt$1@dont-email.me>, badgolferman
>> <REMOVETHISbadgolferman@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> What is the purpose of MAC address randomization? To spoof a piece of
>>> hardware?
>>
>> mac addresses can be used to track people.
>>
>> if a device provides a random one each time, then it eliminates that as
>> a viable method.
>>
>
> I highly doubt the vast majority of iPhone users know or use such a
> function. In other words “it’s not needed” and “not used” yet Apple has
> decided to include that in their devices. If they do research on what
> people want and need how did they come up with this feature when there are
> so many others they’ve removed which people actually want?

You don't have to do anything. it's automatic unless you disable it, on
both Android an iOS.

"In late 2019, Google released Android 10 which made MAC randomization
the default behavior when both scanning for wireless networks and
connecting to them. This was a major change that was intended to prevent
tracking across networks."
<https://blog.elevensoftware.com/how-mac-address-randomization-can-affect-the-wifi-experience>

"In iOS 14 [released on September 16, 2020] or later, and iPadOS 14 or
later, and watchOS 7 or later, when an iPhone, iPad, iPod touch, or
Apple Watch connects to a Wi-Fi network, it identifies itself with a
unique (random) MAC address per network. This feature can be disabled
either by the user or using a new option in the Wi-Fi payload."
<https://support.apple.com/guide/security/wi-fi-privacy-secb9cb3140c/web>

That first article also explains the changes that were made since
Android 8 and iOS 8: "For many years now, most operating systems (iOS
8+, Android 8+, Windows 10, etc.) have implemented some form of MAC
randomization. However, most of these operating systems only use a
randomized MAC address when scanning for access points and SSIDs (known
as probe requests), but still have used a consistent, genuine MAC
address when actually connecting to networks. This has successfully
mitigated some forms of tracking (footfall tracking in retail stores for
example), but more advanced tracking methods have surfaced since these
changes were introduced. In late 2019, Google released Android 10 which
made MAC randomization the default behavior when both scanning for
wireless networks and connecting to them. This was a major change that
was intended to prevent tracking across networks.

Not sure where are favorite troll got the idea that iOS 14 had this
feature prior to Android 10, or he's simply lying (again).

--
“If you are not an expert on a subject, then your opinions about it
really do matter less than the opinions of experts. It's not
indoctrination nor elitism. It's just that you don't know as much as
they do about the subject.”—Tin Foil Awards

On 2023-05-20, sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
>> I highly doubt the vast majority of iPhone users know or use such a
>> function. In other words "it's not needed" and "not used" yet Apple has
>> decided to include that in their devices. If they do research on what
>> people want and need how did they come up with this feature when there are
>> so many others they've removed which people actually want?
>
> You don't have to do anything. it's automatic unless you disable it, on
> both Android an iOS.

On Android, the mac randomization _per network_ is an automatic on setting.
But Android mac randomization _per connection_ is a manual on/off setting.

Does iOS have that more advanced "Wi-Fi-Enhanced MAC randomization"
capability or is iOS still using the less advanced "per network" method?

https://www.techrepublic.com/videos/android-11-how-to-enable-enhanced-randomize-mac-addresses/

> "In iOS 14 [released on September 16, 2020] or later, and iPadOS 14 or
> later, and watchOS 7 or later, when an iPhone, iPad, iPod touch, or
> Apple Watch connects to a Wi-Fi network, it identifies itself with a
> unique (random) MAC address per network. This feature can be disabled
> either by the user or using a new option in the Wi-Fi payload."
> <https://support.apple.com/guide/security/wi-fi-privacy-secb9cb3140c/web>

That implies that iOS 14 only has the less advanced per network setting.
Not the more advanced per connection capability of Android 11 and up.

https://wifihelp.arista.com/post/analysis-of-mac-randomization-schemes-in-wifi-clients#section-8

> That first article also explains the changes that were made since
> Android 8 and iOS 8: "For many years now, most operating systems (iOS
> 8+, Android 8+, Windows 10, etc.) have implemented some form of MAC
> randomization. However, most of these operating systems only use a
> randomized MAC address when scanning for access points and SSIDs (known
> as probe requests), but still have used a consistent, genuine MAC
> address when actually connecting to networks. This has successfully
> mitigated some forms of tracking (footfall tracking in retail stores for
> example), but more advanced tracking methods have surfaced since these
> changes were introduced. In late 2019, Google released Android 10 which
> made MAC randomization the default behavior when both scanning for
> wireless networks and connecting to them. This was a major change that
> was intended to prevent tracking across networks.

The much more advanced per connection mac randomization came about in
Android 11 but it seems like iOS is well behind in this kind of safety.

https://www.techrepublic.com/article/how-to-enable-enhanced-randomize-mac-addresses-on-android/

> Not sure where are favorite troll got the idea that iOS 14 had this
> feature prior to Android 10, or he's simply lying (again).

Does iOS 16 have thaat per connection enhanced wi-fi mac randomization yet?

In article <u4avvo$14ilf$1@dont-email.me>, sms
<scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:

>
> "In iOS 14 [released on September 16, 2020] or later, and iPadOS 14 or
> later, and watchOS 7 or later, when an iPhone, iPad, iPod touch, or
> Apple Watch connects to a Wi-Fi network, it identifies itself with a
> unique (random) MAC address per network. This feature can be disabled
> either by the user or using a new option in the Wi-Fi payload."
> <https://support.apple.com/guide/security/wi-fi-privacy-secb9cb3140c/web>

you conveniently skipped the first paragraph:

Wi-Fi MAC address randomization support is available on iPhone 5 or
later.

iphone 5 cannot run ios 14. it stops at ios 10.

mac address randomization was added with ios 8 in 2014. that's *before*
google added it to android in 2017, which your first link confirms.

since words confuse you, here's a graph which clearly shows that apple
did it *before* android and then updated it again, before android:
<https://blog.elevensoftware.com/hs-fs/hubfs/images/blog/mac-randomizati
on-timeline.png?width=1325&name=mac-randomization-timeline.png>

further information:
<https://appleinsider.com/articles/14/06/09/mac-address-randomization-jo
ins-apples-heap-of-ios-8-privacy-improvements>
Beginning with iOS 8, Apple's handheld devices will generate and use
random Media Acccess Control, or MAC, addresses ‹ rather than their
real MAC address ‹ when scanning for Wi-Fi access points. The change
was announced in a closed session at the company's Worldwide
Developers Conference and first called out by security researcher
Frederic Jacobs.

> Not sure where are favorite troll got the idea that iOS 14 had this
> feature prior to Android 10, or he's simply lying (again).

from *your* links, along with an additional link.

rule of holes: stop digging.

On 20/05/2023 19:59, nospam wrote:

> <https://appleinsider.com/articles/14/06/09/mac-address-randomization-jo
> ins-apples-heap-of-ios-8-privacy-improvements>
> Beginning with iOS 8, Apple's handheld devices will generate and use
> random Media Acccess Control, or MAC, addresses ‹ rather than their
> real MAC address ‹*when scanning* for Wi-Fi access points. The change
> was announced in a closed session at the company's Worldwide
> Developers Conference and first called out by security researcher
> Frederic Jacobs.

What that says is not what you seem to be thinking that says if your goal
is to say that iOS mac randomization was earlier than its Android partner.

What that says is iOS 8 added mac randomization *when scanning*.
Maybe you didn't know that scanning & connecting are two different things?

When did iOS add the mac randomization *when connecting*?
And, did iOS ever add the better mac randomization upon *each connection*?

On 2023-05-20 11:10, Umberto wrote:
> On 20/05/2023 19:59, nospam wrote:
>
>> <https://appleinsider.com/articles/14/06/09/mac-address-randomization-jo
>> ins-apples-heap-of-ios-8-privacy-improvements>
>>   Beginning with iOS 8, Apple's handheld devices will generate and use
>>   random Media Acccess Control, or MAC, addresses ‹ rather than their
>>   real MAC address ‹*when scanning* for Wi-Fi access points. The change
>>   was announced in a closed session at the company's Worldwide
>>   Developers Conference and first called out by security researcher
>>   Frederic Jacobs.
>
> What that says is not what you seem to be thinking that says if your goal
> is to say that iOS mac randomization was earlier than its Android partner.
>
> What that says is iOS 8 added mac randomization *when scanning*.
> Maybe you didn't know that scanning & connecting are two different things?
>
> When did iOS add the mac randomization *when connecting*?
> And, did iOS ever add the better mac randomization upon *each connection*?

Stop changing nyms, Arlen

In article <u4b2dh$1ftj$1@news.mixmin.net>, Umberto
<canaliumberto@impresatrecolli.com> wrote:

>
> When did iOS add the mac randomization *when connecting*?

2018, a year *before* android.

<https://blog.elevensoftware.com/hs-fs/hubfs/images/blog/mac-randomizati
on-timeline.png>

that graphic is from sms's link.

it's always helpful when people provide links that refute what they are
arguing about. it saves others a lot of time.

On 20/05/2023 23:41, Alan wrote:

>> When did iOS add the mac randomization *when connecting*?
>> And, did iOS ever add the better mac randomization upon *each connection*?
>
> Stop changing nyms, Arlen

Who the fuck is Arlen and who the fuck are you?

Damn iOS whiny crybabies hate that iOS copied Android mac randomization and
Apple still hasn't caught up yet because iOS can't randomize connections.

plonk!

In article <u4b2u9$1k2h$1@news.mixmin.net>, Umberto
<canaliumberto@impresatrecolli.com> wrote:

>
> >> When did iOS add the mac randomization *when connecting*?
> >> And, did iOS ever add the better mac randomization upon *each connection*?
> >
> > Stop changing nyms, Arlen
>
> Who the fuck is Arlen and who the fuck are you?
>
> Damn iOS whiny crybabies hate that iOS copied Android mac randomization and
> Apple still hasn't caught up yet because iOS can't randomize connections.
>
> plonk!

you're not fooling anyone.

On 2023-05-20 11:19, Umberto wrote:
> On 20/05/2023 23:41, Alan wrote:
>
>>> When did iOS add the mac randomization *when connecting*?
>>> And, did iOS ever add the better mac randomization upon *each
>>> connection*?
>>
>> Stop changing nyms, Arlen
>
> Who the fuck is Arlen and who the fuck are you?
>
> Damn iOS whiny crybabies hate that iOS copied Android mac randomization and
> Apple still hasn't caught up yet because iOS can't randomize connections.
>
> plonk!

Your writing style is unmistakable, Arlen.

On 20/05/2023 20:25, nospam wrote:

> you're not fooling anyone.

Who the fuck are you? And what the fuck do you know about Android?

You're just another sniffling iOS whiny crybaby who hates that Appple
copied Android mac randomization and Apple still hasn't caught up yet
because iOS still can't randomize the mac address on each connection.

I'm not even going to respond to the rest of these iOS crybabies.
Fup set to the android newsgroup only.

Fucking iOS whiny crybabies.
plonk!

On 2023-05-20, sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
>
> That first article also explains the changes that were made since
> Android 8 and iOS 8: "For many years now, most operating systems (iOS
> 8+, Android 8+, Windows 10, etc.) have implemented some form of MAC
> randomization.
>
> Not sure where are favorite troll got the idea that iOS 14 had this
> feature prior to Android 10, or he's simply lying (again).

Anyone with a web browser and a couple brain cells to rub together can
look on Wikipedia to see that in fact nospam is correct:

* iOS 8 was released on September 16, 2015.
* Android 8 was released on August 21, 2017, *two* *years* later.
You're the troll spreading disinformation here. ; )

--
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR

On 2023-05-20, Umberto <canaliumberto@impresatrecolli.com> wrote:
> On 20/05/2023 23:41, Alan wrote:
>
>>> When did iOS add the mac randomization *when connecting*? And, did
>>> iOS ever add the better mac randomization upon *each connection*?
>>
>> Stop changing nyms, Arlen
>
> Who the fuck is Arlen and who the fuck are you?

You're not fooling anyone, old fart. : )

--
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR

On 2023-05-20, Umberto <canaliumberto@impresatrecolli.com> wrote:
> On 20/05/2023 20:25, nospam wrote:
>
>> you're not fooling anyone.
>
> Who the fuck are you?

*YAWN* Get back on your meds, Arlen.

> I'm not even going to respond to the rest of these iOS crybabies.

Yes you will. And you'll nym switch and impersonate others while doing
it. That's been your modus operandi for years.

> Fup set to the android newsgroup only.

Don't cross post to the iOS newsgroups in the first place if you don't
like being corrected by iOS users, asshole.

--
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR

On 2023-05-20, nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> In article <u4b2dh$1ftj$1@news.mixmin.net>, Umberto
><canaliumberto@impresatrecolli.com> wrote:
>
>> When did iOS add the mac randomization *when connecting*?
>
> 2018, a year *before* android.
>
><https://blog.elevensoftware.com/hs-fs/hubfs/images/blog/mac-randomization-timeline.png>
>
> that graphic is from sms's link.
>
> it's always helpful when people provide links that refute what they
> are arguing about. it saves others a lot of time.

Indeed. Of course the littler sms, badgolferman, and Arlen troll clique
definitely won't admit they are wrong about this, just like they have
refused to even acknowledge all the other things they got completely
wrong, because: troll. ; )

--
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR

In article <kcsj8lFbhvvU1@mid.individual.net>, Jolly Roger
<jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:

> On 2023-05-20, sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
> > That first article also explains the changes that were made since
> > Android 8 and iOS 8: "For many years now, most operating systems (iOS
> > 8+, Android 8+, Windows 10, etc.) have implemented some form of MAC
> > randomization.
> >
> > Not sure where are favorite troll got the idea that iOS 14 had this
> > feature prior to Android 10, or he's simply lying (again).
>
> Anyone with a web browser and a couple brain cells to rub together can
> look on Wikipedia to see that in fact nospam is correct:
>
> * iOS 8 was released on September 16, 2015.

that's ios 9.

ios 8 was released on sep 14, 2014, with developer previews starting in
june, 2014.

> * Android 8 was released on August 21, 2017, *two* *years* later.

three years.

it's actually worse :)

> You're the troll spreading disinformation here. ; )

yep.

On 5/20/2023 11:10 AM, Umberto wrote:
> On 20/05/2023 19:59, nospam wrote:
>
>> <https://appleinsider.com/articles/14/06/09/mac-address-randomization-jo
>> ins-apples-heap-of-ios-8-privacy-improvements>
>>   Beginning with iOS 8, Apple's handheld devices will generate and use
>>   random Media Acccess Control, or MAC, addresses ‹ rather than their
>>   real MAC address ‹*when scanning* for Wi-Fi access points. The change
>>   was announced in a closed session at the company's Worldwide
>>   Developers Conference and first called out by security researcher
>>   Frederic Jacobs.
>
> What that says is not what you seem to be thinking that says if your goal
> is to say that iOS mac randomization was earlier than its Android partner.
>
> What that says is iOS 8 added mac randomization *when scanning*.
> Maybe you didn't know that scanning & connecting are two different things?

<snip>

Yes, that's what nospam doesn't understand. But to be fair, this is a
very technical issue that you can't expect those unfamiliar with network
technology to comprehend.

--
“If you are not an expert on a subject, then your opinions about it
really do matter less than the opinions of experts. It's not
indoctrination nor elitism. It's just that you don't know as much as
they do about the subject.”—Tin Foil Awards

In article <u4bj6a$1773u$1@dont-email.me>, sms
<scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:

> Yes, that's what nospam doesn't understand. But to be fair, this is a
> very technical issue that you can't expect those unfamiliar with network
> technology to comprehend.

ad hominem. insults are all you have.

your own link proves you wrong, which means it's *you* who doesn't
understand.

On 2023-05-20, nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> In article <kcsj8lFbhvvU1@mid.individual.net>, Jolly Roger
><jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
>> On 2023-05-20, sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
>> > That first article also explains the changes that were made since
>> > Android 8 and iOS 8: "For many years now, most operating systems
>> > (iOS 8+, Android 8+, Windows 10, etc.) have implemented some form
>> > of MAC randomization.
>> >
>> > Not sure where are favorite troll got the idea that iOS 14 had this
>> > feature prior to Android 10, or he's simply lying (again).
>>
>> Anyone with a web browser and a couple brain cells to rub together
>> can look on Wikipedia to see that in fact nospam is correct:
>>
>> * iOS 8 was released on September 16, 2015.
>
> that's ios 9.
>
> ios 8 was released on sep 14, 2014, with developer previews starting
> in june, 2014.

Whoops. Good catch. Accidentally copied the wrong date from Wikipedia.
Thanks for the correction.

>> * Android 8 was released on August 21, 2017, *two* *years* later.
>
> three years.
>
> it's actually worse :)

Right.

--
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR

nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> In article <u4b2dh$1ftj$1@news.mixmin.net>, Umberto
> <canaliumberto@impresatrecolli.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> When did iOS add the mac randomization *when connecting*?
>
> 2018, a year *before* android.
>
> <https://blog.elevensoftware.com/hs-fs/hubfs/images/blog/mac-randomizati
> on-timeline.png>
>
> that graphic is from sms's link.
>
> it's always helpful when people provide links that refute what they are
> arguing about. it saves others a lot of time.

Am I missing something here? The link above says that in:

2014, iOS 8 adds MAC randomization when scanning.

2017, Android 8 adds MAC randomization when scanning.

2018, Android 9 adds full MAC randomization when connecting as a default
disabled setting.

2019, Android 10 adds full MAC randomization when connecting as a default
enabled setting. However, the randomized MAC stays consistent per SSID.

2020, iOS 14 adds full MAC randomization when connecting as a default
enabled setting, in addition to rotating the randomized MAC address every
24 hours.

So, iOS had MAC randomization when scanning 3 years before Android. But,
Android had MAC randomization when connecting 1 year (or 2 years if we
count the default disabled setting) before iOS. Assuming this info is
current, iOS has better MAC randomization right now, due to the “rotating
the randomized MAC address every 24 hours. “

I don’t see any entry for iOS doing anything in 2018.

The point is, iOS was first for some things. Android was first for some
things. What exactly are we arguing about? Isn’t this what competition
is all about? We all get better products. Right?

In article <BladncWPobLbw_T5nZ2dnZfqnPGdnZ2d@supernews.com>, Bob
Campbell <nunya@none.none> wrote:

>
> The point is, iOS was first for some things. Android was first for some
> things.

correct, however, ios is first for many more things than android.

> What exactly are we arguing about? Isn¹t this what competition
> is all about? We all get better products. Right?

yep.

different companies have different priorities.

On 2023-05-20 20:58, Jolly Roger wrote:
> On 2023-05-20, Umberto <canaliumberto@impresatrecolli.com> wrote:
>> On 20/05/2023 20:25, nospam wrote:
>>
>>> you're not fooling anyone.
>>
>> Who the fuck are you?
>
> *YAWN* Get back on your meds, Arlen.
>
>> I'm not even going to respond to the rest of these iOS crybabies.
>
> Yes you will. And you'll nym switch and impersonate others while doing
> it. That's been your modus operandi for years.
>
>> Fup set to the android newsgroup only.
>
> Don't cross post to the iOS newsgroups in the first place if you don't
> like being corrected by iOS users, asshole.

He is not Arlen. Arlen enjoys pissing you and would not remove the
iphone groups.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On 2023-05-20 19:28, sms wrote:
> On 5/20/2023 5:29 AM, badgolferman wrote:
>> nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>>> In article <u498g4$r8pt$1@dont-email.me>, badgolferman
>>> <REMOVETHISbadgolferman@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> What is the purpose of MAC address randomization? To spoof a piece of
>>>> hardware?
>>>
>>> mac addresses can be used to track people.
>>>
>>> if a device provides a random one each time, then it eliminates that as
>>> a viable method.
>>>
>>
>> I highly doubt the vast majority of iPhone users know or use such a
>> function. In other words “it’s not needed” and “not used” yet Apple has
>> decided to include that in their devices. If they do research on what
>> people want and need how did they come up with this feature when there
>> are
>> so many others they’ve removed which people actually want?
>
> You don't have to do anything. it's automatic unless you disable it, on
> both Android an iOS.
>
> "In late 2019, Google released Android 10 which made MAC randomization
> the default behavior when both scanning for wireless networks and
> connecting to them. This was a major change that was intended to prevent
> tracking across networks."
> <https://blog.elevensoftware.com/how-mac-address-randomization-can-affect-the-wifi-experience>

Notice that MAC randomization will make connections not to work at some
places. Those that look at the MAC before authorizing you to connect.

So, it is not always a good feature.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On 2023-05-21, Bob Campbell <nunya@none.none> wrote:
> Am I missing something here? The link above says that in:
>
> 2014, iOS 8 adds MAC randomization when scanning.
>
> 2017, Android 8 adds MAC randomization when scanning.
>
> 2018, Android 9 adds full MAC randomization when connecting as a default
> disabled setting.
>
> 2019, Android 10 adds full MAC randomization when connecting as a default
> enabled setting. However, the randomized MAC stays consistent per SSID.
>
> 2020, iOS 14 adds full MAC randomization when connecting as a default
> enabled setting, in addition to rotating the randomized MAC address every
> 24 hours.
>
> So, iOS had MAC randomization when scanning 3 years before Android. But,
> Android had MAC randomization when connecting 1 year (or 2 years if we
> count the default disabled setting) before iOS. Assuming this info is
> current, iOS has better MAC randomization right now, due to the "rotating
> the randomized MAC address every 24 hours. "
>
> I don't see any entry for iOS doing anything in 2018.
>
> The point is, iOS was first for some things. Android was first for some
> things. What exactly are we arguing about? Isn't this what competition
> is all about? We all get better products. Right?

I think there is only one person "arguing" about which came first.
Nobody else seems to care if one came before the other. It's not a race.

Each platform often has good ideas that the other platform borrows from.
That's good for everyone.

I didn't double check your timeline (it looked fine to me) but I noticed
only one thing wrong which is that even in Android 11 and above, the mac
randomization per BSSID connection is never set as the default setting.

Only the Android mac randomization per BSSID is what's set as the default.
For Android, you only get the random mac per connection if you turn it on.

The way Apple does it with a 24-hour rotation is different than how Android
does it per each connection but you can likely say the results are similar.

For Android, if you connect twice to the same hotspot in the same day,
you'll get two different mac randomizations & for iOS it will be only one.

Given that Android randomizes more intelligently than iOS does, you can't
say iOS randomizing the mac every 24 hours is any better than Android
randomizing the mac upon every single connection - but other than that one
feature difference with Android being better - they are about the same.

Thank you for outlining the history of mac randomization on smartphones.

Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
> Anyone with a web browser and a couple brain cells to rub together can
> look on Wikipedia to see that in fact nospam is correct:

He was wrong because he wasn't aware there is a difference between
randomizing while scanning, when connecting and per each connection.

Carlos E.R. wrote on 21.05.2023 09:57

> Notice that MAC randomization will make connections not to work at some
> places. Those that look at the MAC before authorizing you to connect.
>
> So, it is not always a good feature.

This is why the Android 11 MAC randomization per connection (Android) or
MAC randomization per day (iOS) is a feature you can turn on & off at will.

If you turn randomization on prior to connecting to a hotspot, they can
save your MAC address on that first connect. If you come back a couple of
hours later you will be a different MAC on Android but the same MAC on iOS.

You'll only get a different MAC address on iOS 24 hours later.

For some things (like hotel authentication by MAC address) you may want to
turn off the Android per-connection randomization and the iOS per-day
randomization so that you keep the same MAC address the whole hotel stay.