In My Humble Opinion,
It is just amazing how much privacy most citizens have just given up.
Voluntarily, without court orders. Probably fair hunk out of ignorance.

We, or our relatives, have given up DNA samples so that matches
can be made to cell material found at crime scenes.

From our cell phones we can most often be tracked. These records
can go back months, or be used in real time.

Our autos can also often be tracked. And after an accident,
that data can be pulled up about our speeding etc.

Many of us have watches, that can also be tracked, and they are also
recording even our heartbeat.
(Wife wonders were you exercising, or having sex??)

"a425couple" wrote in message news:_ZrKL.145257$0dpc.10453@fx33.iad...

In My Humble Opinion,
It is just amazing how much privacy most citizens have just given up.
Voluntarily, without court orders. Probably fair hunk out of ignorance.

We, or our relatives, have given up DNA samples so that matches
can be made to cell material found at crime scenes.

From our cell phones we can most often be tracked. These records
can go back months, or be used in real time.

Our autos can also often be tracked. And after an accident,
that data can be pulled up about our speeding etc.

Many of us have watches, that can also be tracked, and they are also
recording even our heartbeat.
(Wife wonders were you exercising, or having sex??)

-----------------------------
Don't you believe that 'they' know what's best for us?

I got into electronic security in 1970 at a high level and have watched the
changes, and sometimes participated on the Government side by prototyping
the devices. I think we get what we ask for and deserve.

JSW, watching nanny-state liberalism creep into New Hampshire. They try to
turn us into what they moved here to get away from.

"a425couple" wrote in message news:_ZrKL.145257$0dpc.10453@fx33.iad...
------------------
You might like (or hate) the sharp social commentary in Elon Musk's tweets.

On 25/02/2023 17:57, a425couple wrote:
> In My Humble Opinion,
> It is just amazing how much privacy most citizens have just given up.
> Voluntarily, without court orders.  Probably fair hunk out of ignorance.
>
> We, or our relatives, have given up DNA samples so that matches
> can be made to cell material found at crime scenes.
>
> From our cell phones we can most often be tracked.  These records
> can go back months, or be used in real time.
>
> Our autos can also often be tracked.  And after an accident,
> that data can be pulled up about our speeding etc.
>
> Many of us have watches, that can also be tracked, and they are also
> recording even our heartbeat.
> (Wife wonders were you exercising, or having sex??)

Well the police have been able to track autos for decades wherever there
is a toll road for example and there are more of those in the USA and
the UK. As for auto records they have been held by countries or states
since the 1930's. Punchcards, sorting and counting machines were the
core of IBM's business long before electronic computers came along.

In truly repressive regimes the courts just fabricate any evidence they
need anyway. When it comes to speeding etc driving records used to be
held at city level and they knew how many driving offences you had, it
was just done using file cards, card boxes and rolodex machines.

As for DNA I am all in favour, cant speak for the USA but here in the UK
DNA testing and matching has not only cleared lots oi accused people but
caught some really evil people.

The classic case in the UK is Colin Pitcfork who raped and killed 2
young girls in 1983. A mentally retarded local man was arrested and
accused of the crime but cleared by DNA testing. The researcher who
invented the system commented that he was convinced he save an innocent
man from jail as the individual arrested was very suggestible and
admitted to the offence just to end the interrogation. This was the
first ever use of DNA to catch a criminal.

Pitchfork is still where he belongs - in jail.

I dont own or wear a watch of any description but I do have a
smartphone. Plenty of people either have no cellphone or just a simple
burner phone. As for monitoring my heart I am pleased to say that at the
age of 71 my heart is fine and I dont need medication for high blood
pressure.

On Monday, February 27, 2023 at 6:05:41 AM UTC-5, Keith Willshaw wrote:
> On 25/02/2023 17:57, a425couple wrote:
> > In My Humble Opinion,
> > It is just amazing how much privacy most citizens have just given up.
> > Voluntarily, without court orders. Probably fair hunk out of ignorance..
> >
> > We, or our relatives, have given up DNA samples so that matches
> > can be made to cell material found at crime scenes.
> >
> > From our cell phones we can most often be tracked. These records
> > can go back months, or be used in real time.
> >
> > Our autos can also often be tracked. And after an accident,
> > that data can be pulled up about our speeding etc.
> >
> > Many of us have watches, that can also be tracked, and they are also
> > recording even our heartbeat.
> > (Wife wonders were you exercising, or having sex??)
> Well the police have been able to track autos for decades wherever there
> is a toll road for example and there are more of those in the USA and
> the UK. As for auto records they have been held by countries or states
> since the 1930's. Punchcards, sorting and counting machines were the
> core of IBM's business long before electronic computers came along.
>
> In truly repressive regimes the courts just fabricate any evidence they
> need anyway. When it comes to speeding etc driving records used to be
> held at city level and they knew how many driving offences you had, it
> was just done using file cards, card boxes and rolodex machines.
>
> As for DNA I am all in favour, cant speak for the USA but here in the UK
> DNA testing and matching has not only cleared lots oi accused people but
> caught some really evil people.
>
> The classic case in the UK is Colin Pitcfork who raped and killed 2
> young girls in 1983. A mentally retarded local man was arrested and
> accused of the crime but cleared by DNA testing. The researcher who
> invented the system commented that he was convinced he save an innocent
> man from jail as the individual arrested was very suggestible and
> admitted to the offence just to end the interrogation. This was the
> first ever use of DNA to catch a criminal.
>
> Pitchfork is still where he belongs - in jail.
>
> I dont own or wear a watch of any description but I do have a
> smartphone. Plenty of people either have no cellphone or just a simple
> burner phone. As for monitoring my heart I am pleased to say that at the
> age of 71 my heart is fine and I dont need medication for high blood
> pressure.

Keith, that is an excellent reply. Particularly with DNA, I just don't see how that is violating your privacy, even voluntarily. I am always astonished at the "siege mentality" some folks seem to exhibit when ever technology gives us a new way to do things.

Dean

"Dean Markley" wrote in message
news:d327cfea-9748-413d-b9b5-989b281281f7n@googlegroups.com...

On Monday, February 27, 2023 at 6:05:41 AM UTC-5, Keith Willshaw wrote:
> On 25/02/2023 17:57, a425couple wrote:
> > In My Humble Opinion,
> > It is just amazing how much privacy most citizens have just given up.
> > Voluntarily, without court orders. Probably fair hunk out of ignorance.
> >
> > We, or our relatives, have given up DNA samples so that matches
> > can be made to cell material found at crime scenes.
> >
> > From our cell phones we can most often be tracked. These records
> > can go back months, or be used in real time.
> >
> > Our autos can also often be tracked. And after an accident,
> > that data can be pulled up about our speeding etc.
> >
> > Many of us have watches, that can also be tracked, and they are also
> > recording even our heartbeat.
> > (Wife wonders were you exercising, or having sex??)
> Well the police have been able to track autos for decades wherever there
> is a toll road for example and there are more of those in the USA and
> the UK. As for auto records they have been held by countries or states
> since the 1930's. Punchcards, sorting and counting machines were the
> core of IBM's business long before electronic computers came along.
>
> In truly repressive regimes the courts just fabricate any evidence they
> need anyway. When it comes to speeding etc driving records used to be
> held at city level and they knew how many driving offences you had, it
> was just done using file cards, card boxes and rolodex machines.
>
> As for DNA I am all in favour, cant speak for the USA but here in the UK
> DNA testing and matching has not only cleared lots oi accused people but
> caught some really evil people.
>
> The classic case in the UK is Colin Pitcfork who raped and killed 2
> young girls in 1983. A mentally retarded local man was arrested and
> accused of the crime but cleared by DNA testing. The researcher who
> invented the system commented that he was convinced he save an innocent
> man from jail as the individual arrested was very suggestible and
> admitted to the offence just to end the interrogation. This was the
> first ever use of DNA to catch a criminal.
>
> Pitchfork is still where he belongs - in jail.
>
> I dont own or wear a watch of any description but I do have a
> smartphone. Plenty of people either have no cellphone or just a simple
> burner phone. As for monitoring my heart I am pleased to say that at the
> age of 71 my heart is fine and I dont need medication for high blood
> pressure.

Keith, that is an excellent reply. Particularly with DNA, I just don't see
how that is violating your privacy, even voluntarily. I am always
astonished at the "siege mentality" some folks seem to exhibit when ever
technology gives us a new way to do things.

Dean

-------------------------

Perhaps you think you have nothing to hide or to lose if an extreme faction
gains power. Trotsky's Communist supporters felt safe until it was suddenly
too late, as did Hitler's SA.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_of_the_Long_Knives
[The purge] "also provided a legal grounding for the Nazis, as the German
courts and cabinet quickly swept aside centuries of legal prohibition
against extrajudicial killings to demonstrate their loyalty to the regime."

https://www.history.com/topics/european-history/great-purge
"By the mid-1930s, Stalin believed anyone with ties to the Bolsheviks or
Lenin’s government was a threat to his leadership and needed to go."

Nothing is off limits in the realm of technical espionage. I can't say more.
-xyz

On Monday, February 27, 2023 at 1:04:45 PM UTC-5, Jim Wilkins wrote:
> "Dean Markley" wrote in message
> news:d327cfea-9748-413d...@googlegroups.com...
> On Monday, February 27, 2023 at 6:05:41 AM UTC-5, Keith Willshaw wrote:
> > On 25/02/2023 17:57, a425couple wrote:
> > > In My Humble Opinion,
> > > It is just amazing how much privacy most citizens have just given up.
> > > Voluntarily, without court orders. Probably fair hunk out of ignorance.
> > >
> > > We, or our relatives, have given up DNA samples so that matches
> > > can be made to cell material found at crime scenes.
> > >
> > > From our cell phones we can most often be tracked. These records
> > > can go back months, or be used in real time.
> > >
> > > Our autos can also often be tracked. And after an accident,
> > > that data can be pulled up about our speeding etc.
> > >
> > > Many of us have watches, that can also be tracked, and they are also
> > > recording even our heartbeat.
> > > (Wife wonders were you exercising, or having sex??)
> > Well the police have been able to track autos for decades wherever there
> > is a toll road for example and there are more of those in the USA and
> > the UK. As for auto records they have been held by countries or states
> > since the 1930's. Punchcards, sorting and counting machines were the
> > core of IBM's business long before electronic computers came along.
> >
> > In truly repressive regimes the courts just fabricate any evidence they
> > need anyway. When it comes to speeding etc driving records used to be
> > held at city level and they knew how many driving offences you had, it
> > was just done using file cards, card boxes and rolodex machines.
> >
> > As for DNA I am all in favour, cant speak for the USA but here in the UK
> > DNA testing and matching has not only cleared lots oi accused people but
> > caught some really evil people.
> >
> > The classic case in the UK is Colin Pitcfork who raped and killed 2
> > young girls in 1983. A mentally retarded local man was arrested and
> > accused of the crime but cleared by DNA testing. The researcher who
> > invented the system commented that he was convinced he save an innocent
> > man from jail as the individual arrested was very suggestible and
> > admitted to the offence just to end the interrogation. This was the
> > first ever use of DNA to catch a criminal.
> >
> > Pitchfork is still where he belongs - in jail.
> >
> > I dont own or wear a watch of any description but I do have a
> > smartphone. Plenty of people either have no cellphone or just a simple
> > burner phone. As for monitoring my heart I am pleased to say that at the
> > age of 71 my heart is fine and I dont need medication for high blood
> > pressure.
>
> Keith, that is an excellent reply. Particularly with DNA, I just don't see
> how that is violating your privacy, even voluntarily. I am always
> astonished at the "siege mentality" some folks seem to exhibit when ever
> technology gives us a new way to do things.
>
> Dean
> -------------------------
>
> Perhaps you think you have nothing to hide or to lose if an extreme faction
> gains power. Trotsky's Communist supporters felt safe until it was suddenly
> too late, as did Hitler's SA.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_of_the_Long_Knives
> [The purge] "also provided a legal grounding for the Nazis, as the German
> courts and cabinet quickly swept aside centuries of legal prohibition
> against extrajudicial killings to demonstrate their loyalty to the regime.."
>
> https://www.history.com/topics/european-history/great-purge
> "By the mid-1930s, Stalin believed anyone with ties to the Bolsheviks or
> Lenin’s government was a threat to his leadership and needed to go."
>
> Nothing is off limits in the realm of technical espionage. I can't say more.
> -xyz

Well Jim, now that is expanding the scope considerably. Short answer: Of course I have something to lose. Everyone does. But the topic at hand is really irrelevant if an "extreme faction" takes power. By definition, then we ALL have something to lose.

Dean

"a425couple" <a425couple@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:_ZrKL.145257$0dpc.10453@fx33.iad...
> In My Humble Opinion,

It is gaining physical security, but upping the risk of losing
thought and opinion security.

First slogan everything that people use will be misused.

Next slogan we are all individually more powerful than
previous generations, given the increase in knowledge.
That includes making explosives and toxins and using
them in the name of the cause. Or just using a vehicle
to run over people. We have a lot of trust built into the
system given how many people are behind you in any
crowd, or moving past you in a vehicle making killing
speed, or handling your food and drink. Enough people
have been willing to be violent to the point of killing for
what most would rate as a minor cause. Almost every
killing has decision points that could have prevented it
and plenty of people using hindsight to apportion blame.

How many entertainment shows routinely have the good guys
being given access to information without the proper authority
and using it to save what otherwise would be lost? So why
have the need for the authority? Or the "in your face total
surveillance", but of the already proved to audience bad guy,
not the innocent who finally breaks under the pressure.

Because complete surveillance enables enforcing complete
obedience to the rules of those doing the surveillance.
Repressive states already do this, the new systems enable
it to be done more efficiently.

Best way to get there is to help make sure the people in
power cannot lose power via the public, help this by being
convinced the alternative will rape, loot and murder so the
good guys can lie, cheat and steal in the name of the cause.
Of course you are the target of the lies and are cheated and
stolen from. The bigger the voter margin your political
representatives have the more they are tuned to the power
brokers, not the electorate.

The longer any group is in power the higher the fees they
charge, money probably, also being able to decide what
happens according to what those in power like plus
enforcing obedience. And even if the people at the top
are honest and ethical, corruption gets built into the system,
after all the people in power are blamed when things go
wrong, even if they had nothing to do with the problem, so
little personal benefit looking for trouble. Those in power tend
to be told what they want to hear or what the subordinates
think they want to hear and that accumulates.

All organisations rapidly move to their primary duty of
looking after the people in charge, everyone else is
secondary. And one such protection is dealing with
critics, starting with the standard debate, through
overwhelming them "litigation to exhaustion", to
harassment, private investigators, unfavourable
publicity drops. Been around for centuries. And this
is magnified if it is a government organisation.
Start with anyone who has upset the local police.

Backing off for a moment, if you have a following on
social media it is easy to make life miserable for
any critic. Sure you might want to tap someone on
their electronic shoulder to say you disagree but
humans are social animals, multiply the tap by a
large enough number and it becomes a
sledgehammer heading for the back of the head.
Even if everyone is polite. And lots of people take
the cue from "their opinion leader" to be rude or
worse. No need for surveillance, just people power.
Stalking comes next.

We can communicate almost instantly to almost anyone
almost anywhere, then comes what we say. What we use
the information for and how much thinking we outsource is
our decision.

> It is just amazing how much privacy most citizens have just given up.
> Voluntarily, without court orders. Probably fair hunk out of ignorance.

Or necessity, like the loyalty discounts making ends meet.

Of course while the publicity says best pricing for you the data
can enable the seller to obtain best price for them. Sort of like
being able to read a customer's body language to know how
much they really want an item but with more sales people
likely to be able to tell correctly.

Use electronic money, starting with credit cards a few generations
ago now, less chance of loss if you lose your purse or wallet.

> We, or our relatives, have given up DNA samples so that matches
> can be made to cell material found at crime scenes.

That is a social decision, when can law enforcement query the
non law enforcement data sets. When can law enforcement
take and keep relevant samples. Also what checks are in the
system, given humans will make mistakes.

> From our cell phones we can most often be tracked. These records
> can go back months, or be used in real time.

Back in the day there were all those letter intercept operations.

The slogan to remember is the computer never forgets.

The use of public cameras recording the area. Evidence
closer to real time gives a better chance of a good outcome.
Police learn rapidly eye witnesses are usually not.

> Our autos can also often be tracked. And after an accident,
> that data can be pulled up about our speeding etc.

How many horse and carts had registration numbers?

> Many of us have watches, that can also be tracked, and they are also
> recording even our heartbeat.

If you want to stay in touch people have to know where
you are.

> (Wife wonders were you exercising, or having sex??)

If she cannot tell the difference what has been going on recently? :-)

In a more complex world you need more advice on what
choices there are and which is best for you. Someone has
to know enough about you to provide the advice. At the
same time the system needs to tell you what the advisor's
strengths and weaknesses are, otherwise it increases the
chances of exploitation.

We are increasing physical security, your watch tells the
world you are having a medical episode, or you can call
emergency from where you are, the auto license scanners
pick up more of the unregistered and more likely unsafe
vehicles and similar for unregistered drivers.

Cameras everywhere give plenty of evidence. Catching
those who do the crimes of violence, theft etc. is much more
likely, and the chance of being caught is the biggest deterrent.

Those in power tend to love anarchists, the ones who
turn up to demonstrations to have a fight. That tends
to reduce the number of protestors ("See only a noisy
minority") or cause trouble ("See only a violent minority")
making it easier to ignore them. Less chance of hijack,
more chance for large peaceful protest.

More physical security can mean more political security,
feeling safe to attend events day or night while expressing
yourself and it can be used to give the powerful more job
security and power. It will do both.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.

"Dean Markley" wrote in message
news:376ade8e-3f7f-4530-86dc-1b74315f7d02n@googlegroups.com...

Well Jim, now that is expanding the scope considerably. Short answer: Of
course I have something to lose. Everyone does. But the topic at hand is
really irrelevant if an "extreme faction" takes power. By definition, then
we ALL have something to lose.

Dean

---------------------

A totalitarian government can't survive without substantial popular support.
Fascist Spain lasted until Franco died at 82 of natural causes. Stalin still
has a high rating. North Korea, Iran and Venezuela haven't collapsed yet.
https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2019/04/16/stalins-approval-rating-among-russians-hits-record-high-poll-a65245

The US has legal precedents for allowing groups to practice what others
might consider extremist, examples are Kiryas Joel, the Shakers and other
strict religious communes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_American_utopian_communities

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/citizen-militias-in-the-u-s-are-moving-toward-more-violent-extremism/

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2017/06/antifa-movement-anti-trump-politics-nazi/

"Dean Markley" wrote in message
news:376ade8e-3f7f-4530-86dc-1b74315f7d02n@googlegroups.com...

Well Jim, now that is expanding the scope considerably. Short answer: Of
course I have something to lose. Everyone does. But the topic at hand is
really irrelevant if an "extreme faction" takes power. By definition, then
we ALL have something to lose.

Dean

-------------------------

New Hampshire is on the front line of the struggle between our traditional
self-reliance and demands for more government support and control, brought
in by refugees from Massachusetts. We often have restrictive measures added
by petition to the town warrant (budget) that we all debate and vote on at
town meetings, so the issue is more than academic for me, I can and do
directly influence local and occasionally state governmental actions.

The Town Meeting discusses and within limits can amend the warrant. A
general election later approves or rejects each article. We participants
develop a good understanding of the parliamentary procedure that generally
maintains order despite strong differences of opinion.

We in NH also have direct access to Presidential candidates who hold many
in-person meetings during the primary. The Republicans discuss their plans
and mingle in numerous small gatherings with the voters, while the Democrats
dictate speeches to fewer and larger pre-screened audiences. I've attended
both and talk to the more accessible Republican candidates and the big name
supporters of the Democrats, who aren't guarded like the candidate.
Archibald Cox told me how he actually admired and respected Nixon while
prosecuting him.

I think it's significant that the Democrats choose to speak from up on the
stage, the Republicans (except Romney) from down on the floor with the
audience, often surrounded by it. My position is that people who don't trust
me can't properly represent me.

The left and particularly the educational establishment are far too eager to
abandon popular democracy if they can't control it. I've been trying to
gently persuade the high school principal that despite its challenges,
popular democracy beats all other alternatives, and more particularly the
relatively modest attendance that proposes and votes on amendments
incorporates the most concerned citizens. He is in the best position of
anyone to increase civic awareness and participation by the next generation.
-jsw

On 27/02/2023 18:03, Jim Wilkins wrote:
------------------------
>
> Perhaps you think you have nothing to hide or to lose if an extreme
> faction gains power. Trotsky's Communist supporters felt safe until it
> was suddenly too late, as did Hitler's SA.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_of_the_Long_Knives
> [The purge] "also provided a legal grounding for the Nazis, as the
> German courts and cabinet quickly swept aside centuries of legal
> prohibition against extrajudicial killings to demonstrate their loyalty
> to the regime."
>
> https://www.history.com/topics/european-history/great-purge
> "By the mid-1930s, Stalin believed anyone with ties to the Bolsheviks or
> Lenin’s government was a threat to his leadership and needed to go."
>
> Nothing is off limits in the realm of technical espionage. I can't say
> more.
> -xyz

If you manage to ressurect Hitler or Stalin let me know, in the meantime
as a British Citizen I would suggest you have more to worry about than
I, after all it was a US Presidential Candidate who tried to overthrow
an election. I will be dammed if I get panicked by scaremongers.