On 5/25/2023 11:55 PM, Chris wrote:
> AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote:

> Speak to anyone under 30 about cheques and they'll look at you blankly.

My grandkids/greatgrandkids (46 now IIRC) are under 30. Most over 10
seem to know what my checks are and seem to be happy to get them. The
parents probably think they're a PITA though...

>>> No one likes cheques anymore.

>> I do. I just bought a new car. I wrote a check for the difference from
>> the trade. The dealership didn't seem to mind.

> Back in the day when this common places would make you wait a week or so
> for the cheque to clear on high value items because you got the car etc.

Not sure exactly what you mean here. The car dealer is protected when I
drive out. He checks that my insurance card is up to date in case I
damage the car and he doesn't transfer the car title until the check
clears. The bank is protected because it just bounces any unfunded
checks. No waiting in either case. It's always been that way for me. YMMV.

>> They're also good for
>> plain old no-machine-necessary money transfers between us plain folks.

> Bank transfers are easier and quicker.

Dunno. I can write out a check in a minute and hand it to anyone. Done.

>> I
>> also write checks for large gifts (weddings, graduations, etc.) and
>> insert it in the card. Also for out of state grandkids small gifts
>> (birthdays etc). They're safer than cash in the mail and I know that
>> they got there when they clear (thanks letters sometimes take a long
>> time or not at all...). They make good receipts. If the yard guy claims
>> I didn't pay him I can show him the cancelled check.

> That's not proof of anything. It could have been cashed fraudulently.

I can get a fraudulently cashed check reimbursed. Cash in a stolen card
is gone forever.

>> And when I do get a
>> check it takes just seconds to cash using my bank's phone app. Easy
>> peasy.
>
> For higher value ones my bank also wants you to send them the cheque. A
> pain.

Yes that would be a PITA. My banks just say to keep them awhile and then
destroy them.

>> I for one will be sorry if they go away but I suppose they will
>> someday...

> Not missed them for a second.

I repeat YMMV.

> I remember when I used to do a lot of cheques you never had a true grasp of
> how much money you had as some of it was on its way out and some on its way
> in.

Ah yes the good old days with that check ledger you carried around and
updated manually with your checkbook. Now I just give my phone bank app
the finger and it all pops up. Amazing...

> With weekends and bank holidays it sometimes took 10 days before a
> cheque cleared. Plus some people took ages to deposit cheques so you'd end
> up with a surprise withdrawal weeks/months later.

My checks come with copy paper so I have a physical copy to save. I just
save them until they clear and then rip them up. Very modern...

But I actually am getting more modern. For some of the out of town
grandkids I now let Amazon do the work. I choose the gift and they wrap
and ship it. And by using my credit card I also get cashback. No
cashback with those darn checks...

On 5/25/2023 3:37 PM, AJL wrote:
> On 5/25/2023 2:49 PM, sms wrote:
>> On 5/25/2023 2:09 PM, AJL wrote:
>
>> In the U.S., checks are dangerous. Once someone has your routing
>> number and account number the fraud potential is enormous. Anyone can
>> print out more checks.
>
> Not any more dangerous than credit/debit cards (for my banks anyway).
> Like credit/debit cards I will be completely reimbursed for any fraud
> THAT IS NOT MY FAULT.

It's a huge difference. With your credit card, the bank will investigate
the fraudulent charges and in the meantime you're not out any money.
With a fraudulent check against your account, your account is drained
while the bank investigates. Also, the credit card issuing bank had
protocols that recognize probable fraud so someone that steals your
credit card would have a hard time charging too much. Also, in countries
with Chip & PIN, the credit card without the PIN doesn't allow large
charges.

--
“If you are not an expert on a subject, then your opinions about it
really do matter less than the opinions of experts. It's not
indoctrination nor elitism. It's just that you don't know as much as
they do about the subject.”—Tin Foil Awards

In article <u4qrts$1ve9$1@dont-email.me>, sms
<scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:

> >> In the U.S., checks are dangerous. Once someone has your routing
> >> number and account number the fraud potential is enormous. Anyone can
> >> print out more checks.
> >
> > Not any more dangerous than credit/debit cards (for my banks anyway).
> > Like credit/debit cards I will be completely reimbursed for any fraud
> > THAT IS NOT MY FAULT.
>
> It's a huge difference. With your credit card, the bank will investigate
> the fraudulent charges and in the meantime you're not out any money.
> With a fraudulent check against your account, your account is drained
> while the bank investigates. Also, the credit card issuing bank had
> protocols that recognize probable fraud so someone that steals your
> credit card would have a hard time charging too much. Also, in countries
> with Chip & PIN, the credit card without the PIN doesn't allow large
> charges.

more disinformation.

the biggest difference is risk.

credit card numbers are easily obtained on the dark web and elsewhere,
whereas checking account numbers are not.

that means that someone's credit card number is far more likely to be
compromised than a bank account.

further, if someone did get a bank account number, they will be limited
in how much they can spend because most people do not a lot of money in
their checking or savings account, certainly *much* less than their
credit limit.

it's also a lot more difficult to fraudulently use a check. first the
fake checks need to be printed, which is not free. second, the
merchants who accept checks put identifying information on the back, so
someone would also need a fake id. setting up a direct ach transfer
requires verification, which will fail.

On 5/26/2023 10:57 AM, sms wrote:
> On 5/25/2023 3:37 PM, AJL wrote:
>> On 5/25/2023 2:49 PM, sms wrote:

>>> In the U.S., checks are dangerous. Once someone has your routing
>>> number and account number the fraud potential is enormous. Anyone
>>> can print out more checks.

>> Not any more dangerous than credit/debit cards (for my banks
>> anyway). Like credit/debit cards I will be completely reimbursed
>> for any fraud THAT IS NOT MY FAULT.

> It's a huge difference. With your credit card, the bank will
> investigate the fraudulent charges and in the meantime you're not out
> any money. With a fraudulent check against your account, your account
> is drained while the bank investigates.

My bank account can't be 'drained' by a fraudulent paper check since it
would only debit checking. My savings, Money Markets, and CDs would
remain untouched.

If someone should print such a check the most they could get is around
$1K which is what I normally keep in checking. If they're too greedy and
go over $1K it's fake check bounce time since I have overdraft turned
off. Darn...

I can cover a lost grand until the bank returns it to me. YMMV.

But in the 50+ years I've used checking accounts there has been nary a
problem so I won't lose any sleep over it...

> Also, the credit card issuing bank had protocols that recognize
> probable fraud so someone that steals your credit card would have a
> hard time charging too much.

I get a text/email for every credit card charge over $10 so I imagine
I'll spot any fraud before the bank does. I then can immediately stop
the card using the bank's app.

In article <u4rce5$417k$1@dont-email.me>, AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote:
>
> But in the 50+ years I've used checking accounts there has been nary a
> problem so I won't lose any sleep over it...

as has been the case for just about everyone.

credit card fraud is *far* more common and poses a much higher risk
than bank account fraud.

AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote:
> On 5/25/2023 11:55 PM, Chris wrote:
>> AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote:
>
>> Speak to anyone under 30 about cheques and they'll look at you blankly.
>
> My grandkids/greatgrandkids (46 now IIRC) are under 30. Most over 10
> seem to know what my checks are and seem to be happy to get them. The
> parents probably think they're a PITA though...
>
>>>> No one likes cheques anymore.
>
>>> I do. I just bought a new car. I wrote a check for the difference from
>>> the trade. The dealership didn't seem to mind.
>
>> Back in the day when this common places would make you wait a week or so
>> for the cheque to clear on high value items because you got the car etc.
>
> Not sure exactly what you mean here.

Bloody autocorrect: because -> before

> The car dealer is protected when I
> drive out .

How?

> He checks that my insurance card is up to date in case I
> damage the car and he doesn't transfer the car title until the check
> clears.

He could still lose the car through fraud. Which is why banks chose to get
rid of cheques; too easy for fraud.

> The bank is protected because it just bounces any unfunded
> checks. No waiting in either case. It's always been that way for me. YMMV.
>
>>> They're also good for
>>> plain old no-machine-necessary money transfers between us plain folks.
>
>> Bank transfers are easier and quicker.
>
> Dunno. I can write out a check in a minute and hand it to anyone. Done.
>
>>> I
>>> also write checks for large gifts (weddings, graduations, etc.) and
>>> insert it in the card. Also for out of state grandkids small gifts
>>> (birthdays etc). They're safer than cash in the mail and I know that
>>> they got there when they clear (thanks letters sometimes take a long
>>> time or not at all...). They make good receipts. If the yard guy claims
>>> I didn't pay him I can show him the cancelled check.
>
>> That's not proof of anything. It could have been cashed fraudulently.
>
> I can get a fraudulently cashed check reimbursed. Cash in a stolen card
> is gone forever.

No it isn't. I doubt a bank would refund a cheque these days given there
are much safer ways.

In article <u4sidi$c9ie$1@dont-email.me>, Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com>
wrote:

> > He checks that my insurance card is up to date in case I
> > damage the car and he doesn't transfer the car title until the check
> > clears.
>
> He could still lose the car through fraud. Which is why banks chose to get
> rid of cheques; too easy for fraud.

certified checks greatly reduce that risk, and almost always required
for high value transactions.

On 5/27/2023 6:37 AM, nospam wrote:
> Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com wrote:

>>> He checks that my insurance card is up to date in case I damage
>>> the car and he doesn't transfer the car title until the check
>>> clears.

>> He could still lose the car through fraud. Which is why banks chose
>> to get rid of cheques; too easy for fraud.

> certified checks greatly reduce that risk, and almost always
> required for high value transactions.

I've never had to use a certified check. I buy a new car about every 4
years or so. Always by check. I even paid for my house by check. Maybe I
just look honest... ;)

BTW If the car dealership wanted me to go to the bank and get a
certified check I would have walked. Buying a car is enough of a PITA
with all the paperwork and transfers needed.

On 5/27/2023 2:27 AM, Chris wrote:
> AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote:

>> The car dealer is protected when I drive out .

> How?

He keeps ownership of the car until the check clears after which the car
title is transferred to me. He checks my car insurance which covers the
car for any damage I might cause in case the deal does go bad.

> He could still lose the car through fraud.

True. And he could lose the same car off the sales lot by plain old
theft. They take precautions in both cases. But I'm sure it does happen.
Cost of doing business...

> Which is why banks chose to get rid of cheques;

I've not heard of any banks in my area getting rid of checks.

> too easy for fraud.

Many of the con jobs I read about these days involve bank transfers to a
foreign country.

>> I can get a fraudulently cashed check reimbursed. Cash in a stolen
>> birthday card is gone forever.

> No it isn't. I doubt a bank would refund a cheque these days given
> there are much safer ways.

My banks both replace any funds lost by fraud THAT IS NOT MY FAULT. YMMV...