James Smith
· Thu
And not forgetting that this had to be endorsed by Churchill & the War
Cabinet even if they stabbed Harris in the back after the War &
conveniently forgot over 55,000 men of Bomber Command (44.4%) had never
come home!! Remember not one word about them in his victory speech &
that hurt a lot of people Harris very much included!!

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Paul Harrison
· Thu
plus Plymouth Liverpool even coventry etc

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Mark Gatenby
· Thu
It was more than just the lost production, it was also the diverted
production needed to counter the growing air threat - there was huge
increase in fighter aircraft, AAA, etc. All that defensive armament was
diverted from offensive programs

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Ian Podmore
· Thu
Albert Speer said after the raid on Hamburg that 6 more raids like that
and the war would be over. So it was very much effective.

Paul Salisbury
· Thu
Bomber Harris is a hero, he took the fight to the Nazis, I think he said
for every German bomb that lands on UK soil he will do the same on
Germany. This is justified. Think of all the damage the evil Germans
did, Coventry, London, Manchester, Liverpool and other cities. Not to
mention the destruction of Warsaw and other occupied cities. Reap what
you sow…

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Erwin Dijk
· 15h
We from the Netherlands will never complain about it but it were the
allies that bombed us the most. Not the Germans. The only difference was
the intent behind the bombings

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Crispin Doyle
· Thu
Bomber Harris was probably a borderline psychopath, but these sorts of
people find purpose in war. He had some qualities that made him a good
commander - determination, persistence, & singularity of purpose for
example, but he was too narrow minded. He was convinced that his way was
the only way to win and nothing should stop him. Coastal Command was
forced to fight the Battle of the Atlantic with a handful of inferior
aircraft because Harris refused to let them have even a squadron of his
best heavy bombers - he much preferred to bounce the rubble of German
cities.. They would have made far more of a difference and lasted longer
fighting U-boats than as strategic bombers. He also had to be given a
direct order to pause city raids and concentrate on targets that
supported the upcoming D-Day landings. Finally, he flat-out refused to
mount repeated attacks on key industrial targets like synthetic fuel
plants, even though these proved to be the most damaging to German war
fighting capabilities. He had a notable success in the Battle of the
Ruhr but on the debut side, the RAF went on to lose the Battle of Berlin.

Ok, having said all this, yes war is terrible and yes the Germans
started bombing civilian targets, but Bomber Command took it to terrible
new levels, only surpassed by the US bombing of Japanese cities. The
strategic bombing offensive against Germany may have been a necessary
evil but we can still recognise that it was an appalling thing.

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Jules Gillespie
· Thu
I think that Coastal Command made the best use of things like B24
Liberators and suchlike.

Not so sure if Lancasters and Halifaxes were as well cut out for the
Anti-Submarine roll.

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Crispin Doyle
They used Liberators and the odd Flying Fortress because Harris wouldn’t
let them have any of ‘his’ heavies. Four engines, radar, big carrying
capacity (fill the bomb bays with fuel) and ease of flying were
requirements for Coastal Command VLR (Very Long Range) aircraft. Perhaps
the Lanc was a bit cramped but the Halifax was roomy enough.
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Daniel Law
· Thu
The synthetic fuel production was in Poland and too far for the bombers
of Bomber Command heavily defended over an area of 32km2 [ including
other facilities ] - A Lanchester would have to remove 1/2 the load to
fly there and get back.

The battle of Berlin and other German cities was as Mr Gillespie wrote
to disperse the German anti aircraft guns to defend the Reich. 1 million
Germans not at the Eastern Front - what many disregard is that the Red
Army was at the end of its’ tether end of 1944 Spring 1945 - for evey
German casualty there were 10 Red Army casualties - now a million fresh
German troops trained in quick firing 88mm’s → whole sale slaughter of
the advancing Red Army and stopping the front enabling the Wehrmacht to
regain advantage

The Bomber Command and the 8th US stopped the Germans moving these
flakguns to the front - a Flakvierling was just as good at shooting down
a plane as being used against infantry

Crispin Doyle
A reduced load dropped on a critically important target could well be
more useful than a greater number of bombs dropped on lesser targets.
I’m not disputing the enormous effort the Germans put in to defending
against RAF and USAAF bombing raids, just pointing out that Harris was
totally inflexible and this may have reduced Bomber Command’s overall
impact.
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Kenny Broadbent
· 7h
Not everyone who does hard things has to be mentally ill.

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Peter Trznadel
· 1h
After being “blitzed” and subject to the infamous “Baedeker raids”
during one of which such raids, my mother was blown clear across a
railway level crossing on the Anlaby road in Hull one night. She was not
amused, She and the rest of the population who were on the receiving end
of luftwaffe attenti…
(more)
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James Smith
· Thu
And not forgetting that this had to be endorsed by Churchill & the War
Cabinet even if they stabbed Harris in the back after the War &
conveniently forgot over 55,000 men of Bomber Command (44.4%) had never
come home!! Remember not one word about them in his victory speech &
that hurt a lot of people Harris very much included!!

Profile photo for Jules Gillespie
Profile photo for Paul Harrison
Paul Harrison
· Thu
plus Plymouth Liverpool even coventry etc

Profile photo for Jules Gillespie
Profile photo for Mark Gatenby
Mark Gatenby
· Thu
It was more than just the lost production, it was also the diverted
production needed to counter the growing air threat - there was huge
increase in fighter aircraft, AAA, etc. All that defensive armament was
diverted from offensive programs

Profile photo for Jules Gillespie
Profile photo for Ian Podmore
Ian Podmore
· Thu
Albert Speer said after the raid on Hamburg that 6 more raids like that
and the war would be over. So it was very much effective.

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Patricia Bromley
· Thu
Great response, thank you.

In 1941 the only meaningful way the UK could strike back at Germany was
by bombing, on the ground the British Army learned its trade in North
Africa while the Navy was fully occupied keeping the Atlantic Convoys
viable, to be fair the USN was doing its bit. The first US casualty of
WW2 was the USS Reuben James in Sept 1941 while escorting convoy ON 20

In 1941 my dad found himself in Basra Iraq as a signaller attached to
the King's Own Royal Regiment (Lancaster) relieving RAF Habbaniya. Here
occcured the last biplane air war in the west with RAF Gloucester
Gladiators defearing the Italian CR-42's

The secret weapon for the British Army was the Portee, a 2 pounder AT
gun mounted on a truck.

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSE-NbfyimpZEYrN9G1b93Xz9Mr4tW8TJB2aA&usqp=CAU

On 4/9/23 08:41, Keith Willshaw wrote:
> n 4/9/23 08:41, Keith Willshaw wrote:
>
> In 1941 the only meaningful way the UK could strike back at Germany was
> by bombing,

yes

>
> In 1941 my dad found himself in Basra Iraq as a signaller attached to
> the King's Own Royal Regiment (Lancaster) relieving RAF Habbaniya. Here
> occcured the last biplane air war in the west with RAF Gloucester
> Gladiators defearing the Italian CR-42's
>
>Do you know where those Italian CR-42's had flown from?
I'm just drawing a blank on where the Italians were
based and what they might have been trying to do.

By the way,,, related or not ---
Did you ever take a look at Boris Johnson's "The Churchill Factor,
how one man made history."
I found Chapter 21 "Maker of the modern middle east" p 297 - 318
very interesting and informative. It would be sure to be in
your nearest library.

a425couple wrote:

>> In 1941 my dad found himself in Basra Iraq as a signaller attached to
>> the King's Own Royal Regiment (Lancaster) relieving RAF Habbaniya. Here
>> occcured the last biplane air war in the west with RAF Gloucester
>> Gladiators defearing the Italian CR-42's
>>
>>Do you know where those Italian CR-42's had flown from?
>I'm just drawing a blank on where the Italians were
>based and what they might have been trying to do.

They flew out of Mosul.

On 4/10/23 01:28, DAN wrote:
> a425couple wrote:
>
>
>>> In 1941 my dad found himself in Basra Iraq as a signaller attached to
>>> the King's Own Royal Regiment (Lancaster) relieving RAF Habbaniya. Here
>>> occcured the last biplane air war in the west with RAF Gloucester
>>> Gladiators defearing the Italian CR-42's
>>>
>>> Do you know where those Italian CR-42's had flown from?
>> I'm just drawing a blank on where the Italians were
>> based and what they might have been trying to do.
>
> They flew out of Mosul.

OK, so the Italians in 1941 had a military airbase
in northern Iraq, close to Turkey and Syria.
Why? What military actions were they trying to
support?

On 4/10/23 07:54, a425couple wrote:
> On 4/10/23 01:28, DAN wrote:
>> a425couple wrote:
>>
>>
>>>> In 1941 my dad found himself in Basra Iraq as a signaller attached to
>>>> the King's Own Royal Regiment (Lancaster) relieving RAF Habbaniya. Here
>>>> occcured the last biplane air war in the west with RAF Gloucester
>>>> Gladiators defearing the Italian CR-42's
>>>>
>>>> Do you know where those Italian CR-42's had flown from?
>>> I'm just drawing a blank on where the Italians were
>>> based and what they might have been trying to do.
>>
>> They flew out of Mosul.
>
> OK, so the Italians in 1941 had a military airbase
> in northern Iraq, close to Turkey and Syria.
> Why?  What military actions were they trying to
> support?

OK, now I have found and read:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Iraqi_War

selected:
Britain was incensed that Vichy had assisted Italy and Germany in their
attacks on the British in Iraq; attacks that would not have been
possible if it was not for the connivance of the Vichy French.[107] The
Vichyite actions ensured Britain began preparing for an invasion of
Syria, which ultimately led to the Syria-Lebanon campaign of June–July.[106]

Italy
On 27 May, after being invited by Germany, 12 Italian Fiat CR.42s of the
155.a Squadriglia (renamed Squadriglia speciale Irak) of the Regia
Aeronautica Italiana (Royal Italian Air Force) arrived at Mosul to
operate under German command.[6] Also present were a Savoia-Marchetti
SM.79 and Savoia-Marchetti SM.81 acting as pathfinder aircraft, which
were stationed in Aleppo; personnel and equipment were brought in on
three Savoia-Marchetti SM.82s.[108] By 29 May, Italian aircraft were
reported in the skies over Baghdad.[109] Churchill claimed that the
Italian aircraft accomplished nothing,[110] but on 29 May near Khan
Nuqta the Italians intercepted a flight of Hawker Audaxes escorted by
Gloster Gladiators of No. 94 Squadron. In the resulting combat, two
Gladiators were lost for one CR.42 shot down by Wing Commander Wightman.
This was the final aerial battle of the Anglo-Iraqi War.[108] The SM.79
was destroyed on the ground in Aleppo by RAF bombers. Three CR.42s were
damaged and had to be abandoned during the Axis withdrawal from Iraq.
The remaining Italian aircraft were evacuated at the end of May and used
to defend Pantelleria.[111]

Plans were drawn up to supply troops but the German high command was
hesitant and required the permission of Turkey for passage. In the end
the Luftwaffe found conditions in Iraq intolerable, as spare parts were
not available and even the quality of aircraft fuel was far below the
Luftwaffe's requirements. With each passing day fewer aircraft remained
serviceable and ultimately, all Luftwaffe personnel were evacuated on
the last remaining Heinkel He 111.[citation needed]

>
>
>

>
>
>

On 4/10/23 08:48, a425couple wrote:
> On 4/10/23 07:54, a425couple wrote:
>> On 4/10/23 01:28, DAN wrote:
>>> a425couple wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>> In 1941 my dad found himself in Basra Iraq as a signaller attached to
>>>>> the King's Own Royal Regiment (Lancaster) relieving RAF Habbaniya.
>>>>> Here
>>>>> occcured the last biplane air war in the west with RAF Gloucester
>>>>> Gladiators defearing the Italian CR-42's
>>>>>
>>>>> Do you know where those Italian CR-42's had flown from?
>>>> I'm just drawing a blank on where the Italians were
>>>> based and what they might have been trying to do.
>>>
>>> They flew out of Mosul.
>>
>> OK, so the Italians in 1941 had a military airbase
>> in northern Iraq, close to Turkey and Syria.
>> Why?  What military actions were they trying to
>> support?
>
>
> OK, now I have found and read:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Iraqi_War
>
And in continuation,
example of Palestinians never missing a chance to make a
bad decision:

"While Rashid Ali and his supporters were in alliance with the Fascist
Regime in Italy[160] the war demonstrated that Iraq's independence was
at best conditional on British approval of the government's
actions.[citation needed] Rashid Ali and the Mufti of Jerusalem fled to
Persia, then to Turkey, then to Italy, and finally to Berlin, Germany,
where Ali was welcomed by Hitler as head of the Iraqi
government-in-exile.[citation needed]

a425couple wrote:

>And in continuation,
>example of Palestinians never missing a chance to make a
>bad decision:
>
>"While Rashid Ali and his supporters were in alliance with the Fascist
>Regime in Italy[160] the war demonstrated that Iraq's independence was
>at best conditional on British approval of the government's
>actions.[citation needed] Rashid Ali and the Mufti of Jerusalem fled to
>Persia, then to Turkey, then to Italy, and finally to Berlin, Germany,
>where Ali was welcomed by Hitler as head of the Iraqi
>government-in-exile.[citation needed]

he also proclaimed himself the spiritual leader of the Muslim SS troops, made
speeches to help recruit the 13th SS division 'Handshar' (basically Bosnian
Muslim SS).

But he was not alone in this time of endeavor: every time Rommel would look like
he's winning, the Egyptians covered Cairo with Nazi flags...

Oh well. That didn't stop the Brit military from continuing to choose the Arabs'
side all the way until 1949...

"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message news:u1hbj2$2kj1b$1@dont-email.me...

If you can find a copy, which are rarer than Hens Teeth, try and find a
copy of The Golden Caroet by Somerset De Chair. Failing that your
library is more likely to find you this account.

----------------------

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0553295802/ref=x_gr_bb_amazon?ie=UTF8&tag=x_gr_bb_amazon-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=0553295802&SubscriptionId=1MGPYB6YW3HWK55XCGG2

"SOMERSET DE CHAIR--THE "lAWRENCE" OF THE SECOND WOELD WAR!"

There is also a similarly named children's book.

Other exotic wartime adventures:

https://www.amazon.com/Ayesha-Escape-Landing-Emden-Illustrations-ebook/dp/B01NABZI4C
Machine guns are the best passport.

https://www.amazon.com/Popskis-Private-Lt-Col-Vladimir-Peniakoff-ebook/dp/B01E81KHCW/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2TUS4FSHW760X&keywords=popskis+private+army&qid=1681686717&s=digital-text&sprefix=popski%2Cdigital-text%2C168&sr=1-1

On 09/04/2023 19:55, a425couple wrote:

>> Do you know where those Italian CR-42's had flown from?
> I'm just drawing a blank on where the Italians were
> based and what they might have been trying to do.
>

They had flown in from Syria as I recall which was a Vichty French
enclave and their intention was to support the Iraqi attack on RAF
Habbniyah. This would cut the British Supply lines from the port of
Basrah and the oilfields of Mosul.

see
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syria%E2%80%93Lebanon_campaign

Fortunately the 50 or so RAF biplanes, Fairy Gladiators and Hawker
Hind's although outnumbered won air superiority against a superior
force and a light armoured force from what is now Jordan supported by
Indian troops who took Basrah by sea put down the revolt.

On their way back the Army invaded Persia (Iran) and captured Tehran and
opened up a southern suppy route into the USSR.

If you can find a copy, which are rarer than Hens Teeth, try and find a
copy of The Golden Caroet by Somerset De Chair. Failing that your
library is more likely to find you this account.

Blood, Oil and the Axis

Author - John Broich
ISBN-13 978-1468313994