The following may be old news to the experienced cyclist I typically see posting on RBT, but I thought I would post it for the benefit of less experienced others who may stumble on this group.
I recently decided to upgrade my old lugged steel Bianchi from 8 speed to 11 speed. I had already upgraded it from a Ofmega road triple in the front and Campy’s forgettable Avanti shifters, brakes, and derailleurs in 2011. At that time, I went back with a Campy Veloce Ultra Torque compact double, Record Titanium shifters, and Centaur derailleurs & brakes. I have three sets of wheels; the FiR wheels that came with the bike and had Miche (Campy compatible) 8 speed freehubs, a set of Bontrager Race Lite wheels I set up with Shimano 8 speed cassettes using Wheels Manufacturing spacers, and a set of Vuelta Corsa Lite wheels also set up with Shimano cassettes using the Wheels Manufacturing spacers.
When I looked at my options for upgrading, I wanted to stay with Campy Ultra Shift. I decided to go with 11 speed Shimano cassettes since I read that they would work with Campy 11 speed and Shimano cassettes are easier to find and typically cheaper than Campy. Based on much of what I read, I also believed that my existing Shimano freehub bodies could take 11-speed cassettes. That was my first error; I realized it as soon as I got my 1st cassette and tried to install it on the Bontrager wheels. After doing more detailed reading, I realized that Shimano 11 speed freehubs are compatible with 8 speed cassettes by use of the rear 1mm spacer, but the reverse is not true. Now I needed to upgrade not one freehub but all three. The Vuelta wheel uses a Novatec hub, and that freehub body was relatively inexpensive and easy to obtain locally. Vuelta actually sells them on their website. The FiR and Bontrager were not as simple. The Bontrager’s have their own non-DT Swiss hubs. After doing considerable searching I finally figured out what type of freehub body I needed. Unfortunately, I could find none available anywhere but Europe. I eventually got them from a bike shop in the Netherlands, which with shipping charges almost doubled the price. I had a similar issue with the FiR wheels. The freehub body on the Miche Monolithic hubs I have were only available from a few shops in the UK, none of which shipped to the USA. I finally decided I had to rebuild the wheel with a new hub. I decided to keep these wheels Italian, so I installed a new Miche Primato hub with a Shimano compatible freehub body. That came from the UK, also involving additional shipping charges. Happily, the lights stayed on long enough during Hurricane Ida for me to finish lacing the wheel with new spokes & nipples, but it was about three weeks before I could get around to truing them. I am happy with the way they came out. At the end, I have three usable wheels. The Vuelta is my normal wheel and is set up with a 12-25 cassette since I rarely used the 11-tooth cog on my old cassettes and I live in a mostly flat area. I set up the Bontrager’s with a 14-28 cassette in the event I ride in the hills across the lake from New Orleans. I made the FiR wheels an all-arounder set with an 11-28 cassette..
As I said, I knew I wanted Campy Ultra Shift and that limited me to their Chorus group or higher shifters. After doing a lot of searching, I realized Chorus 11 speed shifters are (surprise) not readily available in the USA. I eventually purchased the shifters from the UK. Since I had used Centaur derailleurs with Record shifters on my old set-up, I decided to save some money and purchase Centaur 11 speed derailleurs. Besides being considerably cheaper, they are relatively available. That was my second major error, as I discovered when I downloaded Campy’s Technical Manuals for their shifters and road groups. Since Centaur levers are Power Shift, the Centaur derailleurs will not work with Chorus shifters. Now I needed Chorus or higher derailleurs. Again, nothing available in the USA; even the venerable Mr. Muzi was unable to help. Also again, I was only able to find what I needed in the UK, and only the medium cage version. Since I live in relatively flat land, the cog size limitation of the medium cage derailleur was of little consequence. Thank goodness for e-Bay. Their fees are high, but I was at least able to unload the brand-new Centaur 11 speed derailleurs and recoup the majority of investment.
My main learning from this experience is to do more thorough research into the compatibility of equipment; both between current groupsets and between equipment to be reused and current standards. The days of mixing equipment from different groupsets is (mostly) gone, at least with Campy equipment. Had I known I would need to upgrade all freehub bodies and use all Chorus or higher components before I started to buy equipment, I would have looked more closely at just moving up to Campy 12 speed. It is likely, however, that I would have still settled on an 11-speed build.
Despite my errors, the difficulty with finding much of the equipment I needed, and the additional cost (and time) of international shipping, the build went very easily. I got to take it out for it’s first test ride earlier this week, and it shifts much better than my old 8-speed set-up. I think I’ll keep the old Bianchi around for quite a while…

On Tuesday, September 28, 2021 at 3:12:51 PM UTC-7, TCL wrote:
> The following may be old news to the experienced cyclist I typically see posting on RBT, but I thought I would post it for the benefit of less experienced others who may stumble on this group.
> I recently decided to upgrade my old lugged steel Bianchi from 8 speed to 11 speed. I had already upgraded it from a Ofmega road triple in the front and Campy’s forgettable Avanti shifters, brakes, and derailleurs in 2011. At that time, I went back with a Campy Veloce Ultra Torque compact double, Record Titanium shifters, and Centaur derailleurs & brakes. I have three sets of wheels; the FiR wheels that came with the bike and had Miche (Campy compatible) 8 speed freehubs, a set of Bontrager Race Lite wheels I set up with Shimano 8 speed cassettes using Wheels Manufacturing spacers, and a set of Vuelta Corsa Lite wheels also set up with Shimano cassettes using the Wheels Manufacturing spacers.
> When I looked at my options for upgrading, I wanted to stay with Campy Ultra Shift. I decided to go with 11 speed Shimano cassettes since I read that they would work with Campy 11 speed and Shimano cassettes are easier to find and typically cheaper than Campy. Based on much of what I read, I also believed that my existing Shimano freehub bodies could take 11-speed cassettes. That was my first error; I realized it as soon as I got my 1st cassette and tried to install it on the Bontrager wheels. After doing more detailed reading, I realized that Shimano 11 speed freehubs are compatible with 8 speed cassettes by use of the rear 1mm spacer, but the reverse is not true. Now I needed to upgrade not one freehub but all three. The Vuelta wheel uses a Novatec hub, and that freehub body was relatively inexpensive and easy to obtain locally. Vuelta actually sells them on their website. The FiR and Bontrager were not as simple. The Bontrager’s have their own non-DT Swiss hubs. After doing considerable searching I finally figured out what type of freehub body I needed. Unfortunately, I could find none available anywhere but Europe. I eventually got them from a bike shop in the Netherlands, which with shipping charges almost doubled the price. I had a similar issue with the FiR wheels. The freehub body on the Miche Monolithic hubs I have were only available from a few shops in the UK, none of which shipped to the USA. I finally decided I had to rebuild the wheel with a new hub. I decided to keep these wheels Italian, so I installed a new Miche Primato hub with a Shimano compatible freehub body. That came from the UK, also involving additional shipping charges. Happily, the lights stayed on long enough during Hurricane Ida for me to finish lacing the wheel with new spokes & nipples, but it was about three weeks before I could get around to truing them. I am happy with the way they came out. At the end, I have three usable wheels. The Vuelta is my normal wheel and is set up with a 12-25 cassette since I rarely used the 11-tooth cog on my old cassettes and I live in a mostly flat area. I set up the Bontrager’s with a 14-28 cassette in the event I ride in the hills across the lake from New Orleans. I made the FiR wheels an all-arounder set with an 11-28 cassette.
> As I said, I knew I wanted Campy Ultra Shift and that limited me to their Chorus group or higher shifters. After doing a lot of searching, I realized Chorus 11 speed shifters are (surprise) not readily available in the USA. I eventually purchased the shifters from the UK. Since I had used Centaur derailleurs with Record shifters on my old set-up, I decided to save some money and purchase Centaur 11 speed derailleurs. Besides being considerably cheaper, they are relatively available. That was my second major error, as I discovered when I downloaded Campy’s Technical Manuals for their shifters and road groups. Since Centaur levers are Power Shift, the Centaur derailleurs will not work with Chorus shifters. Now I needed Chorus or higher derailleurs. Again, nothing available in the USA; even the venerable Mr.. Muzi was unable to help. Also again, I was only able to find what I needed in the UK, and only the medium cage version. Since I live in relatively flat land, the cog size limitation of the medium cage derailleur was of little consequence. Thank goodness for e-Bay. Their fees are high, but I was at least able to unload the brand-new Centaur 11 speed derailleurs and recoup the majority of investment.
> My main learning from this experience is to do more thorough research into the compatibility of equipment; both between current groupsets and between equipment to be reused and current standards. The days of mixing equipment from different groupsets is (mostly) gone, at least with Campy equipment. Had I known I would need to upgrade all freehub bodies and use all Chorus or higher components before I started to buy equipment, I would have looked more closely at just moving up to Campy 12 speed. It is likely, however, that I would have still settled on an 11-speed build.
> Despite my errors, the difficulty with finding much of the equipment I needed, and the additional cost (and time) of international shipping, the build went very easily. I got to take it out for it’s first test ride earlier this week, and it shifts much better than my old 8-speed set-up. I think I’ll keep the old Bianchi around for quite a while…

I bought Centaur 11 speed shifters to go with the Centaur medium cage rear derailleur. There is a tiny problem. You can shift to a larger cog 3 at a time but you can only shift to a smaller (faster) cog 1 at a time. I don't see this to be a problem since I'm a climber and have wide ratio cassettes. But you on the flats with smaller ratios and possibly race may find that inconvenient.

I am rather surprised that Campy would make the lower groups and the upper groups incompatible.

Now, Andrew asked me if I was going to try using Shimano 11 speed, to let him know how well the Shimano cassette worked with the Campy 11. I haven't gotten around to that but since you have I too am interested in the results since Shimano cassettes are cheaper and easier to get. And the best levels are FAR cheaper.

I have converted several of the Record Ultra bikes to the new style 10 speed Centaur levers. These levers shift easier and FAR more accurately. The brakes are the same and you must insert the inner cables through the longer pathway. The brake cables have to be inserted into the channel. This is a bit difficult at first until you learn how to do this. Most of the time you have to use NEW inner cables which have the ends soldered together which keeps them from coming unwound. Most people don't have the equipment to solder stainless.

As far as I'm concerned the 10 speed is at least one speed more than you need. But the 11 speed stuff is more readily available and cheaper.

Presently I have a set of almost new 10 speed levers and a nearly new set of 10 speed ultra Record levers on Craigslist for $450 and $400 respectively.. They would be gone in 2 days on Ebay but after the last sale when they charged me almost 25% sales fees, I will never use Ebay again. But there are a lot of Campy users in the bay area and they will turn up sooner or later.

I have enough 10 speed parts (which are mounted on the Douglas Ti) to last the rest of its life so the Airborne and the Merlin mount the 11 speeds. I'm presently missing an 11 speed chain and bar tape to finish the Airborne and everything else is in running condition.

I have to say that I REALLY liked Di2 except for the stupid Shimano levers which put the switches too close together to use as intuitively as a Campy setup. But having the front derailleur self correct as you go through the rear cogs is great. Never any scrubbing noises.

I think that the only way to go is metal bikes now. Good carbon fiber bikes like Look, Time, Trek or the Taiwanese Colnagos are extremely reliable, but most of the rest aren't as we saw in the Grand Tours with bicycle tubes laying on the roads. So I will stick with my Titanium bikes. I may paint the Airborne.

On 9/28/2021 5:12 PM, TCL wrote:
> The following may be old news to the experienced cyclist I typically see posting on RBT, but I thought I would post it for the benefit of less experienced others who may stumble on this group.
> I recently decided to upgrade my old lugged steel Bianchi from 8 speed to 11 speed. I had already upgraded it from a Ofmega road triple in the front and Campy’s forgettable Avanti shifters, brakes, and derailleurs in 2011. At that time, I went back with a Campy Veloce Ultra Torque compact double, Record Titanium shifters, and Centaur derailleurs & brakes. I have three sets of wheels; the FiR wheels that came with the bike and had Miche (Campy compatible) 8 speed freehubs, a set of Bontrager Race Lite wheels I set up with Shimano 8 speed cassettes using Wheels Manufacturing spacers, and a set of Vuelta Corsa Lite wheels also set up with Shimano cassettes using the Wheels Manufacturing spacers.
> When I looked at my options for upgrading, I wanted to stay with Campy Ultra Shift. I decided to go with 11 speed Shimano cassettes since I read that they would work with Campy 11 speed and Shimano cassettes are easier to find and typically cheaper than Campy. Based on much of what I read, I also believed that my existing Shimano freehub bodies could take 11-speed cassettes. That was my first error; I realized it as soon as I got my 1st cassette and tried to install it on the Bontrager wheels. After doing more detailed reading, I realized that Shimano 11 speed freehubs are compatible with 8 speed cassettes by use of the rear 1mm spacer, but the reverse is not true. Now I needed to upgrade not one freehub but all three. The Vuelta wheel uses a Novatec hub, and that freehub body was relatively inexpensive and easy to obtain locally. Vuelta actually sells them on their website. The FiR and Bontrager were not as simple. The Bontrager’s have their own non-DT Swiss hubs. Aft
er doing considerable searching I finally figured out what type of freehub body I needed. Unfortunately, I could find none available anywhere but Europe. I eventually got them from a bike shop in the Netherlands, which with shipping charges almost doubled the price. I had a similar issue with the FiR wheels. The freehub body on the Miche Monolithic hubs I have were only available from a few shops in the UK, none of which shipped to the USA. I finally decided I had to rebuild the wheel with a new hub. I decided to keep these wheels Italian, so I installed a new Miche Primato hub with a Shimano compatible freehub body. That came from the UK, also involving additional shipping charges. Happily, the lights stayed on long enough during Hurricane Ida for me to finish lacing the wheel with new spokes & nipples, but it was about three weeks before I could get around to truing them. I am happy with the way they came out. At the end, I have three usable wheels. The Vuelta is my no
rmal wheel and is set up with a 12-25 cassette since I rarely used the 11-tooth cog on my old cassettes and I live in a mostly flat area. I set up the Bontrager’s with a 14-28 cassette in the event I ride in the hills across the lake from New Orleans. I made the FiR wheels an all-arounder set with an 11-28 cassette.
> As I said, I knew I wanted Campy Ultra Shift and that limited me to their Chorus group or higher shifters. After doing a lot of searching, I realized Chorus 11 speed shifters are (surprise) not readily available in the USA. I eventually purchased the shifters from the UK. Since I had used Centaur derailleurs with Record shifters on my old set-up, I decided to save some money and purchase Centaur 11 speed derailleurs. Besides being considerably cheaper, they are relatively available. That was my second major error, as I discovered when I downloaded Campy’s Technical Manuals for their shifters and road groups. Since Centaur levers are Power Shift, the Centaur derailleurs will not work with Chorus shifters. Now I needed Chorus or higher derailleurs. Again, nothing available in the USA; even the venerable Mr. Muzi was unable to help. Also again, I was only able to find what I needed in the UK, and only the medium cage version. Since I live in relatively flat land, the cog
size limitation of the medium cage derailleur was of little consequence. Thank goodness for e-Bay. Their fees are high, but I was at least able to unload the brand-new Centaur 11 speed derailleurs and recoup the majority of investment.
> My main learning from this experience is to do more thorough research into the compatibility of equipment; both between current groupsets and between equipment to be reused and current standards. The days of mixing equipment from different groupsets is (mostly) gone, at least with Campy equipment. Had I known I would need to upgrade all freehub bodies and use all Chorus or higher components before I started to buy equipment, I would have looked more closely at just moving up to Campy 12 speed. It is likely, however, that I would have still settled on an 11-speed build.
> Despite my errors, the difficulty with finding much of the equipment I needed, and the additional cost (and time) of international shipping, the build went very easily. I got to take it out for it’s first test ride earlier this week, and it shifts much better than my old 8-speed set-up. I think I’ll keep the old Bianchi around for quite a while…
>
+1 for good reportage!

+1 and especially for your honesty!

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 9/28/2021 6:12 PM, TCL wrote:
> The following may be old news to the experienced cyclist I typically see posting on RBT, but I thought I would post it for the benefit of less experienced others who may stumble on this group.
> [mega snip]
> Despite my errors, the difficulty with finding much of the equipment I needed, and the additional cost (and time) of international shipping, the build went very easily. I got to take it out for it’s first test ride earlier this week, and it shifts much better than my old 8-speed set-up. I think I’ll keep the old Bianchi around for quite a while…

I'm curious about your motivation for changing, especially since you
ride in such flat territory. It was obviously a lot of work and
frustration. What do you see as the benefits?

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Tuesday, September 28, 2021 at 7:28:07 PM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 9/28/2021 6:12 PM, TCL wrote:
> > The following may be old news to the experienced cyclist I typically see posting on RBT, but I thought I would post it for the benefit of less experienced others who may stumble on this group.
> > [mega snip]
> > Despite my errors, the difficulty with finding much of the equipment I needed, and the additional cost (and time) of international shipping, the build went very easily. I got to take it out for it’s first test ride earlier this week, and it shifts much better than my old 8-speed set-up. I think I’ll keep the old Bianchi around for quite a while…
> I'm curious about your motivation for changing, especially since you
> ride in such flat territory. It was obviously a lot of work and
> frustration. What do you see as the benefits?
>
> --
> - Frank Krygowski
I had modified one of my 8 speed cassettes to have one tooth jumps between gears and felt it was much easier to find the right gear (for me). The down side was the limitation on my available low gears. Although we are basically flat, we do have some steep bridges and levee crossings where having a low gear is beneficial (If I were stronger and/or younger, that may not be as much of an issue). Changing to 11 speed allowed me to keep a 1 tooth jump between the gears I would typically use, while also allowing for a reasonable low end. It was a fair amount of work with some frustrating moments, but overall it was enjoyable. I like to work on things, and this was a good project with a definite payback.

On 9/28/2021 7:28 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 9/28/2021 6:12 PM, TCL wrote:
>> The following may be old news to the experienced cyclist I
>> typically see posting on RBT, but I thought I would post
>> it for the benefit of less experienced others who may
>> stumble on this group.
>> [mega snip]
>> Despite my errors, the difficulty with finding much of the
>> equipment I needed, and the additional cost (and time) of
>> international shipping, the build went very easily. I got
>> to take it out for it’s first test ride earlier this
>> week, and it shifts much better than my old 8-speed
>> set-up. I think I’ll keep the old Bianchi around for
>> quite a while…
>
> I'm curious about your motivation for changing, especially
> since you ride in such flat territory. It was obviously a
> lot of work and frustration. What do you see as the benefits?
>
20+ year old Avanti.
Reason enough.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Tuesday, September 28, 2021 at 5:28:07 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 9/28/2021 6:12 PM, TCL wrote:
> > The following may be old news to the experienced cyclist I typically see posting on RBT, but I thought I would post it for the benefit of less experienced others who may stumble on this group.
> > [mega snip]
> > Despite my errors, the difficulty with finding much of the equipment I needed, and the additional cost (and time) of international shipping, the build went very easily. I got to take it out for it’s first test ride earlier this week, and it shifts much better than my old 8-speed set-up. I think I’ll keep the old Bianchi around for quite a while…
> I'm curious about your motivation for changing, especially since you
> ride in such flat territory. It was obviously a lot of work and
> frustration. What do you see as the benefits?

I thought you would be asking him why he gave up his Ofmega triple.

-- Jay Beattie.

On Wednesday, September 29, 2021 at 2:28:07 AM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 9/28/2021 6:12 PM, TCL wrote:
> > The following may be old news to the experienced cyclist I typically see posting on RBT, but I thought I would post it for the benefit of less experienced others who may stumble on this group.
> > [mega snip]
> > Despite my errors, the difficulty with finding much of the equipment I needed, and the additional cost (and time) of international shipping, the build went very easily. I got to take it out for it’s first test ride earlier this week, and it shifts much better than my old 8-speed set-up. I think I’ll keep the old Bianchi around for quite a while…
> I'm curious about your motivation for changing, especially since you
> ride in such flat territory. It was obviously a lot of work and
> frustration. What do you see as the benefits?
>
> --
> - Frank Krygowski

Let me guess;
- more range AND small steps between the gears,
- major components are worn and need replacement anyway,

My question would be why not buy a new bike with a complete Shimano 105 11 speed gruppo.

Lou

On Tuesday, September 28, 2021 at 6:12:51 PM UTC-4, TCL wrote:
> The following may be old news to the experienced cyclist I typically see posting on RBT, but I thought I would post it for the benefit of less experienced others who may stumble on this group.
> I recently decided to upgrade my old lugged steel Bianchi from 8 speed to 11 speed. I had already upgraded it from a Ofmega road triple in the front and Campy’s forgettable Avanti shifters, brakes, and derailleurs in 2011. At that time, I went back with a Campy Veloce Ultra Torque compact double, Record Titanium shifters, and Centaur derailleurs & brakes. I have three sets of wheels; the FiR wheels that came with the bike and had Miche (Campy compatible) 8 speed freehubs, a set of Bontrager Race Lite wheels I set up with Shimano 8 speed cassettes using Wheels Manufacturing spacers, and a set of Vuelta Corsa Lite wheels also set up with Shimano cassettes using the Wheels Manufacturing spacers.
> When I looked at my options for upgrading, I wanted to stay with Campy Ultra Shift. I decided to go with 11 speed Shimano cassettes since I read that they would work with Campy 11 speed and Shimano cassettes are easier to find and typically cheaper than Campy. Based on much of what I read, I also believed that my existing Shimano freehub bodies could take 11-speed cassettes. That was my first error; I realized it as soon as I got my 1st cassette and tried to install it on the Bontrager wheels. After doing more detailed reading, I realized that Shimano 11 speed freehubs are compatible with 8 speed cassettes by use of the rear 1mm spacer, but the reverse is not true. Now I needed to upgrade not one freehub but all three. The Vuelta wheel uses a Novatec hub, and that freehub body was relatively inexpensive and easy to obtain locally. Vuelta actually sells them on their website. The FiR and Bontrager were not as simple. The Bontrager’s have their own non-DT Swiss hubs. After doing considerable searching I finally figured out what type of freehub body I needed. Unfortunately, I could find none available anywhere but Europe. I eventually got them from a bike shop in the Netherlands, which with shipping charges almost doubled the price. I had a similar issue with the FiR wheels. The freehub body on the Miche Monolithic hubs I have were only available from a few shops in the UK, none of which shipped to the USA. I finally decided I had to rebuild the wheel with a new hub. I decided to keep these wheels Italian, so I installed a new Miche Primato hub with a Shimano compatible freehub body. That came from the UK, also involving additional shipping charges. Happily, the lights stayed on long enough during Hurricane Ida for me to finish lacing the wheel with new spokes & nipples, but it was about three weeks before I could get around to truing them. I am happy with the way they came out. At the end, I have three usable wheels. The Vuelta is my normal wheel and is set up with a 12-25 cassette since I rarely used the 11-tooth cog on my old cassettes and I live in a mostly flat area. I set up the Bontrager’s with a 14-28 cassette in the event I ride in the hills across the lake from New Orleans. I made the FiR wheels an all-arounder set with an 11-28 cassette.
> As I said, I knew I wanted Campy Ultra Shift and that limited me to their Chorus group or higher shifters. After doing a lot of searching, I realized Chorus 11 speed shifters are (surprise) not readily available in the USA. I eventually purchased the shifters from the UK. Since I had used Centaur derailleurs with Record shifters on my old set-up, I decided to save some money and purchase Centaur 11 speed derailleurs. Besides being considerably cheaper, they are relatively available. That was my second major error, as I discovered when I downloaded Campy’s Technical Manuals for their shifters and road groups. Since Centaur levers are Power Shift, the Centaur derailleurs will not work with Chorus shifters. Now I needed Chorus or higher derailleurs. Again, nothing available in the USA; even the venerable Mr.. Muzi was unable to help. Also again, I was only able to find what I needed in the UK, and only the medium cage version. Since I live in relatively flat land, the cog size limitation of the medium cage derailleur was of little consequence. Thank goodness for e-Bay. Their fees are high, but I was at least able to unload the brand-new Centaur 11 speed derailleurs and recoup the majority of investment.
> My main learning from this experience is to do more thorough research into the compatibility of equipment; both between current groupsets and between equipment to be reused and current standards. The days of mixing equipment from different groupsets is (mostly) gone, at least with Campy equipment. Had I known I would need to upgrade all freehub bodies and use all Chorus or higher components before I started to buy equipment, I would have looked more closely at just moving up to Campy 12 speed. It is likely, however, that I would have still settled on an 11-speed build.
> Despite my errors, the difficulty with finding much of the equipment I needed, and the additional cost (and time) of international shipping, the build went very easily. I got to take it out for it’s first test ride earlier this week, and it shifts much better than my old 8-speed set-up. I think I’ll keep the old Bianchi around for quite a while…

Excellent report and great example of patience. I've been scrounging myself lately for parts. Most notably trying to replace the custom cassette configuration on my CX bike. Single Miche cogs used to be available, alas no longer. I've taken to buying cassetts with the gears I need, then combining to get the configuration I want. Even that was a challenge and I had to go here for one cassette: https://kidsracing.co.uk/

As far as getting more cogs onto a cassette body it wasn't built for, I've always had reasonable skills with a Dremel and cut-off wheel. Most of the older shimano-compatable hubs are actually long enough to support 10/11 cogs, but you need to grind away the shoulder at the base of each spline. This type of work isn't recommended for those without decent hand-skills. I've done this on at least 4 hubs over the years, still running them to this day.

On Wednesday, September 29, 2021 at 4:56:53 AM UTC-7, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, September 29, 2021 at 2:28:07 AM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 9/28/2021 6:12 PM, TCL wrote:
> > > The following may be old news to the experienced cyclist I typically see posting on RBT, but I thought I would post it for the benefit of less experienced others who may stumble on this group.
> > > [mega snip]
> > > Despite my errors, the difficulty with finding much of the equipment I needed, and the additional cost (and time) of international shipping, the build went very easily. I got to take it out for it’s first test ride earlier this week, and it shifts much better than my old 8-speed set-up.. I think I’ll keep the old Bianchi around for quite a while…
> > I'm curious about your motivation for changing, especially since you
> > ride in such flat territory. It was obviously a lot of work and
> > frustration. What do you see as the benefits?
> >
> > --
> > - Frank Krygowski
> Let me guess;
> - more range AND small steps between the gears,
> - major components are worn and need replacement anyway,
>
> My question would be why not buy a new bike with a complete Shimano 105 11 speed gruppo.

I was thinking that but didn't want to sound mean. It would have made replacing all the freehub bodies a lot cheaper since Shimano bodies for the various Chi-tech hubs are pretty cheap. One downside is that Shimano doesn't give him the ability to create the kind of cassette he wants -- starting at a 12 or 13 with a close range and a bail-out, at least unless he goes with a Miche or some other brand of cassettes. Shimano 11sp cassettes start with an 11t first-position cog unless you go with the junior cassette starting at 14t or go with the 12-25t, which doesn't have the low range he wants.

Does anyone use Miche? It seems like the way to go if you want first-cog flexibility.

-- Jay Beattie.

On Wednesday, September 29, 2021 at 9:59:50 AM UTC-4, jbeattie wrote:
> On Wednesday, September 29, 2021 at 4:56:53 AM UTC-7, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Wednesday, September 29, 2021 at 2:28:07 AM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > > On 9/28/2021 6:12 PM, TCL wrote:
> > > > The following may be old news to the experienced cyclist I typically see posting on RBT, but I thought I would post it for the benefit of less experienced others who may stumble on this group.
> > > > [mega snip]
> > > > Despite my errors, the difficulty with finding much of the equipment I needed, and the additional cost (and time) of international shipping, the build went very easily. I got to take it out for it’s first test ride earlier this week, and it shifts much better than my old 8-speed set-up. I think I’ll keep the old Bianchi around for quite a while…
> > > I'm curious about your motivation for changing, especially since you
> > > ride in such flat territory. It was obviously a lot of work and
> > > frustration. What do you see as the benefits?
> > >
> > > --
> > > - Frank Krygowski
> > Let me guess;
> > - more range AND small steps between the gears,
> > - major components are worn and need replacement anyway,
> >
> > My question would be why not buy a new bike with a complete Shimano 105 11 speed gruppo.
> I was thinking that but didn't want to sound mean. It would have made replacing all the freehub bodies a lot cheaper since Shimano bodies for the various Chi-tech hubs are pretty cheap. One downside is that Shimano doesn't give him the ability to create the kind of cassette he wants -- starting at a 12 or 13 with a close range and a bail-out, at least unless he goes with a Miche or some other brand of cassettes. Shimano 11sp cassettes start with an 11t first-position cog unless you go with the junior cassette starting at 14t or go with the 12-25t, which doesn't have the low range he wants.
>
> Does anyone use Miche? It seems like the way to go if you want first-cog flexibility.

I have two wheelsets that I run Miche cassettes. I run SRAM Red 10S on my race bike (Scott CR1), and my high-end race wheels are ZIPP 303s with campy SR hub. A while back I bought a Miche 11-23 cassette and a few extra cogs so I could reconfigure for crits or hilly road races. For crits I run a 11-20 straight block and for hills I build out an 11-29. Like I mentioned previously, I was trying to buy some new cogs to replace the shimano compatible cassette on my CX bike, but I couldn't find single cogs for sale anywhere (I literally spent many hours over several days looking), not even ebay, so I had to buy two complete cassettes from two different shops that have all the cogs I want. I like running 38 x 11-29 for CX. Miche seems to be the only company that makes a 29t cog for either standard.

>
> -- Jay Beattie.

On Wednesday, September 29, 2021 at 4:56:53 AM UTC-7, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, September 29, 2021 at 2:28:07 AM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 9/28/2021 6:12 PM, TCL wrote:
> > > The following may be old news to the experienced cyclist I typically see posting on RBT, but I thought I would post it for the benefit of less experienced others who may stumble on this group.
> > > [mega snip]
> > > Despite my errors, the difficulty with finding much of the equipment I needed, and the additional cost (and time) of international shipping, the build went very easily. I got to take it out for it’s first test ride earlier this week, and it shifts much better than my old 8-speed set-up.. I think I’ll keep the old Bianchi around for quite a while…
> > I'm curious about your motivation for changing, especially since you
> > ride in such flat territory. It was obviously a lot of work and
> > frustration. What do you see as the benefits?
> >
> > --
> > - Frank Krygowski
> Let me guess;
> - more range AND small steps between the gears,
> - major components are worn and need replacement anyway,
>
> My question would be why not buy a new bike with a complete Shimano 105 11 speed gruppo.

If I were a Shimano person that is exactly what I would do. But I am Campy and Campy IS a great deal more user friendly. But having built gravel bikes with 105 I would recommend that long before Dura Ace or Ultegra.

On Wednesday, September 29, 2021 at 6:59:50 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
> On Wednesday, September 29, 2021 at 4:56:53 AM UTC-7, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Wednesday, September 29, 2021 at 2:28:07 AM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > > On 9/28/2021 6:12 PM, TCL wrote:
> > > > The following may be old news to the experienced cyclist I typically see posting on RBT, but I thought I would post it for the benefit of less experienced others who may stumble on this group.
> > > > [mega snip]
> > > > Despite my errors, the difficulty with finding much of the equipment I needed, and the additional cost (and time) of international shipping, the build went very easily. I got to take it out for it’s first test ride earlier this week, and it shifts much better than my old 8-speed set-up. I think I’ll keep the old Bianchi around for quite a while…
> > > I'm curious about your motivation for changing, especially since you
> > > ride in such flat territory. It was obviously a lot of work and
> > > frustration. What do you see as the benefits?
> > >
> > > --
> > > - Frank Krygowski
> > Let me guess;
> > - more range AND small steps between the gears,
> > - major components are worn and need replacement anyway,
> >
> > My question would be why not buy a new bike with a complete Shimano 105 11 speed gruppo.
> I was thinking that but didn't want to sound mean. It would have made replacing all the freehub bodies a lot cheaper since Shimano bodies for the various Chi-tech hubs are pretty cheap. One downside is that Shimano doesn't give him the ability to create the kind of cassette he wants -- starting at a 12 or 13 with a close range and a bail-out, at least unless he goes with a Miche or some other brand of cassettes. Shimano 11sp cassettes start with an 11t first-position cog unless you go with the junior cassette starting at 14t or go with the 12-25t, which doesn't have the low range he wants.
>
> Does anyone use Miche? It seems like the way to go if you want first-cog flexibility.

My experience with Miche isn't good. They seemed to skip gears a lot. However, that may have been because I was using Campy Record Ultra shifters which have to be almost new not to give problems.

On 9/28/2021 8:51 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 28, 2021 at 5:28:07 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 9/28/2021 6:12 PM, TCL wrote:
>>> The following may be old news to the experienced cyclist I typically see posting on RBT, but I thought I would post it for the benefit of less experienced others who may stumble on this group.
>>> [mega snip]
>>> Despite my errors, the difficulty with finding much of the equipment I needed, and the additional cost (and time) of international shipping, the build went very easily. I got to take it out for it’s first test ride earlier this week, and it shifts much better than my old 8-speed set-up. I think I’ll keep the old Bianchi around for quite a while…
>> I'm curious about your motivation for changing, especially since you
>> ride in such flat territory. It was obviously a lot of work and
>> frustration. What do you see as the benefits?
>
> I thought you would be asking him why he gave up his Ofmega triple.

That's another good question.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Wednesday, September 29, 2021 at 6:56:53 AM UTC-5, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, September 29, 2021 at 2:28:07 AM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 9/28/2021 6:12 PM, TCL wrote:
> > > The following may be old news to the experienced cyclist I typically see posting on RBT, but I thought I would post it for the benefit of less experienced others who may stumble on this group.
> > > [mega snip]
> > > Despite my errors, the difficulty with finding much of the equipment I needed, and the additional cost (and time) of international shipping, the build went very easily. I got to take it out for it’s first test ride earlier this week, and it shifts much better than my old 8-speed set-up.. I think I’ll keep the old Bianchi around for quite a while…
> > I'm curious about your motivation for changing, especially since you
> > ride in such flat territory. It was obviously a lot of work and
> > frustration. What do you see as the benefits?
> >
> > --
> > - Frank Krygowski
> Let me guess;
> - more range AND small steps between the gears,
> - major components are worn and need replacement anyway,
>
> My question would be why not buy a new bike with a complete Shimano 105 11 speed gruppo.
>
> Lou

Because Shimano just came out with 12 speed now. Not that I am going to be buying any new bikes, but if I were, or advising a friend, I would suggest getting a 12 speed bike now that Shimano has Dura Ace and Ultegra 12 speed out. I'd suggest waiting until Shimano unveils 105 12 speed next year and get it. This assumes they don't have two or three 11 speed bikes sitting in the garage. If that were the case then sure get another 11 speed bike to go with the ones you already have.

On 9/29/2021 11:39 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, September 29, 2021 at 6:56:53 AM UTC-5, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Wednesday, September 29, 2021 at 2:28:07 AM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 9/28/2021 6:12 PM, TCL wrote:
>>>> The following may be old news to the experienced cyclist I typically see posting on RBT, but I thought I would post it for the benefit of less experienced others who may stumble on this group.
>>>> [mega snip]
>>>> Despite my errors, the difficulty with finding much of the equipment I needed, and the additional cost (and time) of international shipping, the build went very easily. I got to take it out for it’s first test ride earlier this week, and it shifts much better than my old 8-speed set-up. I think I’ll keep the old Bianchi around for quite a while…
>>> I'm curious about your motivation for changing, especially since you
>>> ride in such flat territory. It was obviously a lot of work and
>>> frustration. What do you see as the benefits?
>>>
>>> --
>>> - Frank Krygowski
>> Let me guess;
>> - more range AND small steps between the gears,
>> - major components are worn and need replacement anyway,
>>
>> My question would be why not buy a new bike with a complete Shimano 105 11 speed gruppo.
>>
>> Lou
>
> Because Shimano just came out with 12 speed now. Not that I am going to be buying any new bikes, but if I were, or advising a friend, I would suggest getting a 12 speed bike now that Shimano has Dura Ace and Ultegra 12 speed out. I'd suggest waiting until Shimano unveils 105 12 speed next year and get it. This assumes they don't have two or three 11 speed bikes sitting in the garage. If that were the case then sure get another 11 speed bike to go with the ones you already have.
>

Well, maybe.
Shimano's first 8 system (DuraAce Inter 8) was quickly
orphaned as was the 1st iteration of Ten. Second design of
both proved robust in terms of subsequent parts/service.

= You don't know what you don't know. And neither do I.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Thursday, September 30, 2021 at 6:46:10 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 9/29/2021 11:39 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > On Wednesday, September 29, 2021 at 6:56:53 AM UTC-5, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> On Wednesday, September 29, 2021 at 2:28:07 AM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>> On 9/28/2021 6:12 PM, TCL wrote:
> >>>> The following may be old news to the experienced cyclist I typically see posting on RBT, but I thought I would post it for the benefit of less experienced others who may stumble on this group.
> >>>> [mega snip]
> >>>> Despite my errors, the difficulty with finding much of the equipment I needed, and the additional cost (and time) of international shipping, the build went very easily. I got to take it out for it’s first test ride earlier this week, and it shifts much better than my old 8-speed set-up. I think I’ll keep the old Bianchi around for quite a while…
> >>> I'm curious about your motivation for changing, especially since you
> >>> ride in such flat territory. It was obviously a lot of work and
> >>> frustration. What do you see as the benefits?
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> - Frank Krygowski
> >> Let me guess;
> >> - more range AND small steps between the gears,
> >> - major components are worn and need replacement anyway,
> >>
> >> My question would be why not buy a new bike with a complete Shimano 105 11 speed gruppo.
> >>
> >> Lou
> >
> > Because Shimano just came out with 12 speed now. Not that I am going to be buying any new bikes, but if I were, or advising a friend, I would suggest getting a 12 speed bike now that Shimano has Dura Ace and Ultegra 12 speed out. I'd suggest waiting until Shimano unveils 105 12 speed next year and get it. This assumes they don't have two or three 11 speed bikes sitting in the garage. If that were the case then sure get another 11 speed bike to go with the ones you already have.
> >
> Well, maybe.
> Shimano's first 8 system (DuraAce Inter 8) was quickly
> orphaned as was the 1st iteration of Ten. Second design of
> both proved robust in terms of subsequent parts/service.
>
> = You don't know what you don't know. And neither do I.

Well, I have a pretty good idea of what Russell doesn't know since he advertises it with each posting.

On 9/30/2021 9:48 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Thursday, September 30, 2021 at 6:46:10 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 9/29/2021 11:39 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, September 29, 2021 at 6:56:53 AM UTC-5, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> On Wednesday, September 29, 2021 at 2:28:07 AM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>> On 9/28/2021 6:12 PM, TCL wrote:
>>>>>> The following may be old news to the experienced cyclist I typically see posting on RBT, but I thought I would post it for the benefit of less experienced others who may stumble on this group.
>>>>>> [mega snip]
>>>>>> Despite my errors, the difficulty with finding much of the equipment I needed, and the additional cost (and time) of international shipping, the build went very easily. I got to take it out for it’s first test ride earlier this week, and it shifts much better than my old 8-speed set-up. I think I’ll keep the old Bianchi around for quite a while…
>>>>> I'm curious about your motivation for changing, especially since you
>>>>> ride in such flat territory. It was obviously a lot of work and
>>>>> frustration. What do you see as the benefits?
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>>> Let me guess;
>>>> - more range AND small steps between the gears,
>>>> - major components are worn and need replacement anyway,
>>>>
>>>> My question would be why not buy a new bike with a complete Shimano 105 11 speed gruppo.
>>>>
>>>> Lou
>>>
>>> Because Shimano just came out with 12 speed now. Not that I am going to be buying any new bikes, but if I were, or advising a friend, I would suggest getting a 12 speed bike now that Shimano has Dura Ace and Ultegra 12 speed out. I'd suggest waiting until Shimano unveils 105 12 speed next year and get it. This assumes they don't have two or three 11 speed bikes sitting in the garage. If that were the case then sure get another 11 speed bike to go with the ones you already have.
>>>
>> Well, maybe.
>> Shimano's first 8 system (DuraAce Inter 8) was quickly
>> orphaned as was the 1st iteration of Ten. Second design of
>> both proved robust in terms of subsequent parts/service.
>>
>> = You don't know what you don't know. And neither do I.
>
> Well, I have a pretty good idea of what Russell doesn't know since he advertises it with each posting.
>

I doubt anyone on this earth knows if the current Shimano 12
format will be THE Shimano 12 format in a couple of years.

Not intending to be unfair, I should have included above
Campagnolo PowerTorque and that godawful original EXA
cassette hub 1992~98. It is not a Shimano-only phenomenon.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Thursday, September 30, 2021 at 8:34:02 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 9/30/2021 9:48 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Thursday, September 30, 2021 at 6:46:10 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >> On 9/29/2021 11:39 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >>> On Wednesday, September 29, 2021 at 6:56:53 AM UTC-5, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>> On Wednesday, September 29, 2021 at 2:28:07 AM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>>> On 9/28/2021 6:12 PM, TCL wrote:
> >>>>>> The following may be old news to the experienced cyclist I typically see posting on RBT, but I thought I would post it for the benefit of less experienced others who may stumble on this group.
> >>>>>> [mega snip]
> >>>>>> Despite my errors, the difficulty with finding much of the equipment I needed, and the additional cost (and time) of international shipping, the build went very easily. I got to take it out for it’s first test ride earlier this week, and it shifts much better than my old 8-speed set-up. I think I’ll keep the old Bianchi around for quite a while…
> >>>>> I'm curious about your motivation for changing, especially since you
> >>>>> ride in such flat territory. It was obviously a lot of work and
> >>>>> frustration. What do you see as the benefits?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> - Frank Krygowski
> >>>> Let me guess;
> >>>> - more range AND small steps between the gears,
> >>>> - major components are worn and need replacement anyway,
> >>>>
> >>>> My question would be why not buy a new bike with a complete Shimano 105 11 speed gruppo.
> >>>>
> >>>> Lou
> >>>
> >>> Because Shimano just came out with 12 speed now. Not that I am going to be buying any new bikes, but if I were, or advising a friend, I would suggest getting a 12 speed bike now that Shimano has Dura Ace and Ultegra 12 speed out. I'd suggest waiting until Shimano unveils 105 12 speed next year and get it. This assumes they don't have two or three 11 speed bikes sitting in the garage. If that were the case then sure get another 11 speed bike to go with the ones you already have.
> >>>
> >> Well, maybe.
> >> Shimano's first 8 system (DuraAce Inter 8) was quickly
> >> orphaned as was the 1st iteration of Ten. Second design of
> >> both proved robust in terms of subsequent parts/service.
> >>
> >> = You don't know what you don't know. And neither do I.
> >
> > Well, I have a pretty good idea of what Russell doesn't know since he advertises it with each posting.
> >
> I doubt anyone on this earth knows if the current Shimano 12
> format will be THE Shimano 12 format in a couple of years.

Its called the Shimano uncertainty principle. We know that it will change because we can't say that it wont. It may be a small change, like a different cog profile. Or it could be 13. The exact change is unknowable, grasshopper.

-- Jay Beattie.