"Bicycle of Hydraulics"
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAPumW_wYKc>

"2WD Hydraulic Driven Bicycle"
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeTEXzR-vPE>

Soon, everyone will be building and riding hydraulic bicycles.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Thursday, September 30, 2021 at 10:50:22 p.m. UTC-4, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> "Bicycle of Hydraulics"
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAPumW_wYKc>
>
> "2WD Hydraulic Driven Bicycle"
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeTEXzR-vPE>
>
> Soon, everyone will be building and riding hydraulic bicycles.
>
> --
> Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
> PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
> Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
> Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

His 2-wheel drive bicycle is a MOTORCYCLE not a bicycle.

Cheers

On 9/30/2021 10:50 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> "Bicycle of Hydraulics"
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAPumW_wYKc>
>
> "2WD Hydraulic Driven Bicycle"
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeTEXzR-vPE>
>
> Soon, everyone will be building and riding hydraulic bicycles.

So elegant looking!

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Thu, 30 Sep 2021 22:44:37 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
<i_am_cycle_pathic@yahoo.ca> wrote:

>On Thursday, September 30, 2021 at 10:50:22 p.m. UTC-4, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
>> "Bicycle of Hydraulics"
>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAPumW_wYKc>
>>
>> "2WD Hydraulic Driven Bicycle"
>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeTEXzR-vPE>
>>
>> Soon, everyone will be building and riding hydraulic bicycles.
>>

>His 2-wheel drive bicycle is a MOTORCYCLE not a bicycle.
>Cheers

I beg to differ. A motorcycle is where the rider sits on the motor
while the frame, wheels, steering, and saddle are there to keep it
from toppling. A motorized bicycle is where one starts with the
frame, wheels, steering, and saddle and then add a motor of some type.
The motor can be 2 cycle, 4 cycle, electric, steam, external
combustion, jet, rocket, or whatever. Motorcycles also tend to NOT
have functional pedals, while bicycles do. As long as the contrivance
looks something like a bicycle after the power plant is removed and
can still be pedaled, it's a bicycle.

The JET Bicycle - The most dangerous unsafe bike EVER
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKHz7wOjb9w>

More. This is the real bicycle tech:
<https://www.youtube.com/c/colinfurze/search?query=bicycle>

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Fri, 1 Oct 2021 10:43:33 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 9/30/2021 10:50 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> "Bicycle of Hydraulics"
>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAPumW_wYKc>
>>
>> "2WD Hydraulic Driven Bicycle"
>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeTEXzR-vPE>
>>
>> Soon, everyone will be building and riding hydraulic bicycles.

>So elegant looking!

In engineering, the ugly, messy, and crude designs are always the
best. The designs that look like they came directly from a CAD
designers dream, where everything fits together perfectly, and has
elegant features such as chrome plating, bearing seals, perfect welds,
color contrasting paint, safety features, and other useless
decorations, usually fall apart when they inevitably hit something.
Ugly, messy, sloppy, crude, graceless and inelegant, are always
better.

I was expecting you to say something about the designers lack of a
helmet. I'm disappointed, but I'm not surprised. The designer/rider
has replaced safety with "cool" ideas. He's been doing these cool
videos for 14 years, so he must be either very good, very lucky,
totally insane, or we're watching a stunt double. I think the videos
on his channel successfully demonstrate that it is possible to survive
for at least 14 years without a helmet.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Fri, 01 Oct 2021 18:28:02 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Thu, 30 Sep 2021 22:44:37 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
><i_am_cycle_pathic@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>
>>On Thursday, September 30, 2021 at 10:50:22 p.m. UTC-4, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> "Bicycle of Hydraulics"
>>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAPumW_wYKc>
>>>
>>> "2WD Hydraulic Driven Bicycle"
>>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeTEXzR-vPE>
>>>
>>> Soon, everyone will be building and riding hydraulic bicycles.
>>>
>
>>His 2-wheel drive bicycle is a MOTORCYCLE not a bicycle.
>>Cheers
>
>I beg to differ. A motorcycle is where the rider sits on the motor
>while the frame, wheels, steering, and saddle are there to keep it
>from toppling. A motorized bicycle is where one starts with the
>frame, wheels, steering, and saddle and then add a motor of some type.
>The motor can be 2 cycle, 4 cycle, electric, steam, external
>combustion, jet, rocket, or whatever. Motorcycles also tend to NOT
>have functional pedals, while bicycles do. As long as the contrivance
>looks something like a bicycle after the power plant is removed and
>can still be pedaled, it's a bicycle.
>
Come now, sits on the motor? I'd have to ask for an example of that
one.

As for pedals making it a bicycle? Well have a look at a 1902 Indian
Motorcycle, or the 1903 Merkel, or the Flying Merkel of 1909.
https://www.rideapart.com/features/246554/12-american-bikes-that-changed-everything

--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sat, 02 Oct 2021 09:16:32 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Fri, 01 Oct 2021 18:28:02 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 30 Sep 2021 22:44:37 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
>><i_am_cycle_pathic@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>>
>>>On Thursday, September 30, 2021 at 10:50:22 p.m. UTC-4, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> "Bicycle of Hydraulics"
>>>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAPumW_wYKc>
>>>>
>>>> "2WD Hydraulic Driven Bicycle"
>>>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeTEXzR-vPE>
>>>>
>>>> Soon, everyone will be building and riding hydraulic bicycles.
>>>>
>>
>>>His 2-wheel drive bicycle is a MOTORCYCLE not a bicycle.
>>>Cheers
>>
>>I beg to differ. A motorcycle is where the rider sits on the motor
>>while the frame, wheels, steering, and saddle are there to keep it
>>from toppling. A motorized bicycle is where one starts with the
>>frame, wheels, steering, and saddle and then add a motor of some type.
>>The motor can be 2 cycle, 4 cycle, electric, steam, external
>>combustion, jet, rocket, or whatever. Motorcycles also tend to NOT
>>have functional pedals, while bicycles do. As long as the contrivance
>>looks something like a bicycle after the power plant is removed and
>>can still be pedaled, it's a bicycle.

>Come now, sits on the motor? I'd have to ask for an example of that
>one.

You're right and I was wrong. I considered the gas tank to be a part
of the engine. On a bicycle, the saddle and the weight of the rider
is carried by the frame (downtube). Unfortunately, there are enough
exceptions to invalidate my claim. Still, I believe that the rest of
my attempt to distinguish between a motorcycle and motorized bicycle
is still valid.

>As for pedals making it a bicycle? Well have a look at a 1902 Indian
>Motorcycle, or the 1903 Merkel, or the Flying Merkel of 1909.
>https://www.rideapart.com/features/246554/12-american-bikes-that-changed-everything

Ok, let's look at those.

The 1902 Indian replaced the seat tube of the bicycle with the engine.
It looks like the pedals and crank are there to assist in (rolling)
starting, braking, and possibly to save gas on long trips. It's a
bicycle with an engine grafted into the frame. If there's a gray
uncertain area between motorcycles and motorized bicycles, it would
fit there:
<https://cdn.motor1.com/images/mgl/k0L3R/s3/12-american-bikes-that-changed-everything.jpg>

The 1903 Merkel replaced the downtube with the engine exhaust pipe.
Again, it started with a bicycle and was converted into a motorized
bicycle. It too has pedals to assist in starting and braking. Like
the 1902 Indian, it's somewhat of a transition design:
<https://cdn.motor1.com/images/mgl/ORqXB/s3/12-american-bikes-that-changed-everything.jpg>

The Marsh and Metz is a real motorcycle.
<https://cdn.motor1.com/images/mgl/1lgbL/s3/12-american-bikes-that-changed-everything.jpg>
"The Marsh brothers of Brockton, Mass., were among the first to build
complete motorcycles, rather than adapting engines to bicycles..."
In other words, previous machines were considered motorized bicycles
(or conversions), not true motorcycles. In this case, all 3 tubes in
the frame triangle were repurposed to support the gas tank, engine,
and front half of the saddle. The pedals and crank were removed.
That's a motorcycle.

The Curtiss/Marvel improved on strength by splitting the downtube and
seat tube into two half length tubes, and two forks. The top tube is
still there supporting the gas tank. While the rider doesn't sit on
the gas tank, using the tank to support upper body weight for best
aerodynamics is likely. No pedals, so it's a motorcycle.
<https://cdn.motor1.com/images/mgl/WleVL/s3/12-american-bikes-that-changed-everything.jpg>

I don't know what to think of the Flying Merkel. The bicycle frame is
still somewhat recognizable, but contorted into something I would not
consider calling a bicycle. As the engine grows in size and weight,
the frame become more of a way to support the weight of the engine,
than the weight of the rider. I would call this a motorcycle. The
pedals are back, again for starting and braking.
<https://cdn.motor1.com/images/mgl/KRwNR/s3/12-american-bikes-that-changed-everything.jpg>

Judging by the engine size and frame design, the remaining 7 machines
are motorcycles.

It's not easy to make the distinction between a motorized bicycle and
a motorcycle. The Wikipedia article wasn't much help:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorized_bicycle>
"A motorized bicycle is a bicycle with an attached
motor or engine and transmission used either to power
the vehicle unassisted, or to assist with pedaling.
Since it sometimes retains both pedals and a discrete
connected drive for rider-powered propulsion, the
motorized bicycle is in technical terms a true bicycle,
albeit a power-assisted one. Typically they are
incapable of speeds above 52km/h (32.3 mph)."

Basically, it says that if it has pedals, it much be a motorized
bicycle, which is wrong because of some of the aforementioned 12 early
machines appear to be motorcycles, even though they still have pedals.
However, there's also the speed mentioned. Most of the machines shown
are capable of going faster than 52 km/h (32.3 mph). So is the
motorized machine I mentioned in the first video:
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAPumW_wYKc>
So are eBikes with illegal modifications. Are these now to be
considered motorcycles? Or, is everything under 20 mph considered an
eBike (motorized bicycle) and over a motorcycle? I'm not sure I know
the answer here as it's more a regulatory matter than one of
perception. I would prefer it to be my definition that anything that
started out as a bicycle is a motorized bicycle and anything that is
purpose built to be a motor on 2 wheels is a motorcycle, regardless of
speed capabilities, but that may not be true.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Fri, 01 Oct 2021 22:11:31 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Sat, 02 Oct 2021 09:16:32 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 01 Oct 2021 18:28:02 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Thu, 30 Sep 2021 22:44:37 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
>>><i_am_cycle_pathic@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Thursday, September 30, 2021 at 10:50:22 p.m. UTC-4, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>> "Bicycle of Hydraulics"
>>>>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAPumW_wYKc>
>>>>>
>>>>> "2WD Hydraulic Driven Bicycle"
>>>>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeTEXzR-vPE>
>>>>>
>>>>> Soon, everyone will be building and riding hydraulic bicycles.
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>His 2-wheel drive bicycle is a MOTORCYCLE not a bicycle.
>>>>Cheers
>>>
>>>I beg to differ. A motorcycle is where the rider sits on the motor
>>>while the frame, wheels, steering, and saddle are there to keep it
>>>from toppling. A motorized bicycle is where one starts with the
>>>frame, wheels, steering, and saddle and then add a motor of some type.
>>>The motor can be 2 cycle, 4 cycle, electric, steam, external
>>>combustion, jet, rocket, or whatever. Motorcycles also tend to NOT
>>>have functional pedals, while bicycles do. As long as the contrivance
>>>looks something like a bicycle after the power plant is removed and
>>>can still be pedaled, it's a bicycle.
>
>>Come now, sits on the motor? I'd have to ask for an example of that
>>one.
>
>You're right and I was wrong. I considered the gas tank to be a part
>of the engine. On a bicycle, the saddle and the weight of the rider
>is carried by the frame (downtube). Unfortunately, there are enough
>exceptions to invalidate my claim. Still, I believe that the rest of
>my attempt to distinguish between a motorcycle and motorized bicycle
>is still valid.
>
>>As for pedals making it a bicycle? Well have a look at a 1902 Indian
>>Motorcycle, or the 1903 Merkel, or the Flying Merkel of 1909.
>>https://www.rideapart.com/features/246554/12-american-bikes-that-changed-everything
>
>Ok, let's look at those.
>
>The 1902 Indian replaced the seat tube of the bicycle with the engine.
>It looks like the pedals and crank are there to assist in (rolling)
>starting, braking, and possibly to save gas on long trips. It's a
>bicycle with an engine grafted into the frame. If there's a gray
>uncertain area between motorcycles and motorized bicycles, it would
>fit there:
><https://cdn.motor1.com/images/mgl/k0L3R/s3/12-american-bikes-that-changed-everything.jpg>
>
>The 1903 Merkel replaced the downtube with the engine exhaust pipe.
>Again, it started with a bicycle and was converted into a motorized
>bicycle. It too has pedals to assist in starting and braking. Like
>the 1902 Indian, it's somewhat of a transition design:
><https://cdn.motor1.com/images/mgl/ORqXB/s3/12-american-bikes-that-changed-everything.jpg>
>
>The Marsh and Metz is a real motorcycle.
><https://cdn.motor1.com/images/mgl/1lgbL/s3/12-american-bikes-that-changed-everything.jpg>
>"The Marsh brothers of Brockton, Mass., were among the first to build
>complete motorcycles, rather than adapting engines to bicycles..."
>In other words, previous machines were considered motorized bicycles
>(or conversions), not true motorcycles. In this case, all 3 tubes in
>the frame triangle were repurposed to support the gas tank, engine,
>and front half of the saddle. The pedals and crank were removed.
>That's a motorcycle.
>
>The Curtiss/Marvel improved on strength by splitting the downtube and
>seat tube into two half length tubes, and two forks. The top tube is
>still there supporting the gas tank. While the rider doesn't sit on
>the gas tank, using the tank to support upper body weight for best
>aerodynamics is likely. No pedals, so it's a motorcycle.
><https://cdn.motor1.com/images/mgl/WleVL/s3/12-american-bikes-that-changed-everything.jpg>
>
>I don't know what to think of the Flying Merkel. The bicycle frame is
>still somewhat recognizable, but contorted into something I would not
>consider calling a bicycle. As the engine grows in size and weight,
>the frame become more of a way to support the weight of the engine,
>than the weight of the rider. I would call this a motorcycle. The
>pedals are back, again for starting and braking.
><https://cdn.motor1.com/images/mgl/KRwNR/s3/12-american-bikes-that-changed-everything.jpg>
>
>Judging by the engine size and frame design, the remaining 7 machines
>are motorcycles.
>
>It's not easy to make the distinction between a motorized bicycle and
>a motorcycle. The Wikipedia article wasn't much help:
><https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorized_bicycle>
> "A motorized bicycle is a bicycle with an attached
> motor or engine and transmission used either to power
> the vehicle unassisted, or to assist with pedaling.
> Since it sometimes retains both pedals and a discrete
> connected drive for rider-powered propulsion, the
> motorized bicycle is in technical terms a true bicycle,
> albeit a power-assisted one. Typically they are
> incapable of speeds above 52km/h (32.3 mph)."
>
>Basically, it says that if it has pedals, it much be a motorized
>bicycle, which is wrong because of some of the aforementioned 12 early
>machines appear to be motorcycles, even though they still have pedals.
>However, there's also the speed mentioned. Most of the machines shown
>are capable of going faster than 52 km/h (32.3 mph). So is the
>motorized machine I mentioned in the first video:
><https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAPumW_wYKc>
>So are eBikes with illegal modifications. Are these now to be
>considered motorcycles? Or, is everything under 20 mph considered an
>eBike (motorized bicycle) and over a motorcycle? I'm not sure I know
>the answer here as it's more a regulatory matter than one of
>perception. I would prefer it to be my definition that anything that
>started out as a bicycle is a motorized bicycle and anything that is
>purpose built to be a motor on 2 wheels is a motorcycle, regardless of
>speed capabilities, but that may not be true.

Well, you might want to look at a "whizzer powered bicycle" (Google on
Whizzer) it was, back in the day, an engine kit that you could buy to
power a bicycle. And, if memory serves it required registering and a
number plate. So apparently, at least in that case, a bicycle with an
attached motor was not regarded as a "bicycle".

But attaching all sorts of limits is, one might say, rather going to
extremes simply to go to extremes, is it not.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Friday, October 1, 2021 at 7:43:37 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 9/30/2021 10:50 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> > "Bicycle of Hydraulics"
> > <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAPumW_wYKc>
> >
> > "2WD Hydraulic Driven Bicycle"
> > <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeTEXzR-vPE>
> >
> > Soon, everyone will be building and riding hydraulic bicycles.
> So elegant looking!

Not to mention that it is a really shows that 2 wheel drive with small wheels is no good for anything. In the best of cases, hydraulic drives are lossy as hell.