On 10/1/2021 10:28 AM, Ralph Barone wrote:
> News 2021 <news21@woa.com.au> wrote:
>> On Thu, 30 Sep 2021 17:27:18 -0700, Tom Kunich scribed:
>>
>>>> BTW, those with "poor bike-handling skills" are not just the novices.
>>>> Many of the elderly qualify, even if they've had years of experience
>>>> with acoustic bikes.
>>>>
>>>> As Lou has pointed out, e-bikes are implicated in lots of deaths of
>>>> elderly Dutch cyclists. It's probably coming here, too.
>>>
>>> OK Frank, I give up. What is an "acoustic bike"?
>>
>> One with out electric amplification. Sheesh.
>>
>>
>
> Although you would expect acoustic bikes to mainly have phosphor bronze
> spokes…

I like that!

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 10/1/2021 12:19 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> On Friday, October 1, 2021 at 7:41:50 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>
>> Oh please. You line up fifteen cars back only if there are fifteen cars
>> waiting at a traffic light or stop sign. For most people that's a rare
>> occurrence. And if it does occur, careful filtering forward is usually
>> possible without a bike lane. In other cases, one can merge into a lane
>> of moving cars.
>
> Rare in your village, Frank, but a common, everyday occurrence for me within a half-mile of my house, including this morning. https://tinyurl.com/22c3fasj And in most states, "careful filtering" -- passing on the right without a bike lane -- is illegal, although generally not enforced.

Perhaps I should have stated my meaning more specifically: For most
_bicyclists_ that's a rare occurrence. Most bicyclists don't ride in
such heavy traffic that 15 cars are stopped ahead of them. I've ridden
in probably hundreds of cities and about a dozen countries. I've seldom
encountered that problem.

But filtering doesn't have to be done on the right, if that's not legal
and if you fear enforcement. One can pass on the left. I've done that to
reach a left turn lane and get the leading left turn arrow.

>> Right hook deaths and injuries are not uncommon, and it seems trucks and
>> buses cause most of them. In London a few years ago when there was lots
>> of rage over a sudden increase in cyclist deaths, these types of crashes
>> were one of the main causes. And they happened in bike lanes, and
>> probably _because_ of bike lanes.
>
> Right hooks often happen because motorists do not regard bike lanes as "lanes" and do not pay attention to traffic approaching in the bike lane -- bicyclists also get into blind spots with giant dump trucks. Avoid those.

Right. But most cyclists don't think about that. They're more likely to
think "I'm in a nice safe bike lane. Nothing can happen to me here."

>
>> One of the most important and most logical principles of traffic law is
>> "destination positioning." Vehicles turning left should be positioned to
>> the left, vehicles turning right should be positioned to the right, and
>> vehicles going straight should be toward the center. This prevents most
>> crossing conflicts. But most bike lanes violate that logic, putting
>> straight-ahead cyclists at the road edge.
>>
>> You can ride smarter than that. Watch this video that tells you how:
>> https://cyclingsavvy.org/2013/09/preventing-right-hooks-smart-moves-video/
>
> That is so highly technical . . . almost like rocket science -- although I summarized it in a sentence, and it is also covered in the Oregon Bicycling Manual, and it is a self-correcting problem if all vehicles actually follow the law. https://tinyurl.com/3z2cscx7

It may seem simple to you, Jay, but there are a great many bicyclists
who have no idea of right hook dangers. As with driving cars,
instruction is valuable. People don't know these things automatically,
from birth. If they did, half of all bike fatalities would not be the
fault of the cyclist.

> Also, your link suggests that motorists drive illegally, vis., the cyclist takes the lane, and the vehicle drives down the bicycle lane, using it as a continuous right turn lane. That is illegal in Oregon.

Oregon is uniquely illogical on that point, as the video mentioned.

> Yes, you want to get out of the bike lane sometimes. It's not rocket science...

But it's not at all uncommon to have bicyclists complain mightily if
they ever have to leave the bike lane for any reason, or (shudder!) if
they have to ride a street that has no bike lane.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 10/1/2021 2:37 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> It's going to be hard transitioning back to the meat-powered commuter full time. Even when I was in shape, there were nights when I would dread having to flog my bike over the hills to get home. I'll probably continue to commute some days on the Vado.

Over to the dark side. :-/

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Friday, October 1, 2021 at 6:49:09 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 10/1/2021 2:37 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> > It's going to be hard transitioning back to the meat-powered commuter full time. Even when I was in shape, there were nights when I would dread having to flog my bike over the hills to get home. I'll probably continue to commute some days on the Vado.
> Over to the dark side. :-/

This is actually less dark-side than driving a car, which was my usual tired-day transportation mode. It's pedal assist, so I'm not riding a motorcycle -- but I can get home over the hills in a reasonable time without killing myself.

-- Jay Beattie.

Am 30.09.2021 um 18:59 schrieb William Crowell:

> Kinetic energy increases as velocity squared. Someone going 20 mph
> on an e-bike has to dissipate 16 times as much kinetic energy if they
> crash than does someone going 5 mph on an ordinary bike. That is
> easily the difference between merely bruising your head in an
> accident and suffering a fatal skull fracture.

This is one reason for the 14 mph limit on class-1 Ebikes in Europe:
half the stopping distance and kinetic energy as a 20 mph ebike.

14 mph is still faster than 90% of commuters on "leasure bikes", almost
only people of road bikes are faster.

Rolf

Am 01.10.2021 um 18:19 schrieb jbeattie:
> And in most states, "careful filtering" -- passing on the right
> without a bike lane -- is illegal, although generally not enforced.

In my 'bike handling in traffic' course, it's clearly "overtake on the
left":
You cycle on the right; as you appraoch a traffic queue you merge into
the lane, and if it's meaningful to overtake you do so on the left, like
motorbikes do (passing on the right as a bicycle is legal in Germany but
that does not reduce the danger).

Luckily, for me this is a rare occurrence doe to my reverse commute.

Am 02.10.2021 um 17:07 schrieb jbeattie:
> On Friday, October 1, 2021 at 6:49:09 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski
> wrote:
>> On 10/1/2021 2:37 PM, jbeattie wrote:
>>> It's going to be hard transitioning back to the meat-powered
>>> commuter full time. Even when I was in shape, there were nights
>>> when I would dread having to flog my bike over the hills to get
>>> home. I'll probably continue to commute some days on the Vado.
>> Over to the dark side. :-/
>
> This is actually less dark-side than driving a car, which was my
> usual tired-day transportation mode. It's pedal assist, so I'm not
> riding a motorcycle -- but I can get home over the hills in a
> reasonable time without killing myself.

To be honest, before Corona, I considered changing my commute from 2
days per week bike and 3 days per week train to 5 days per week ebike.

The main reason against was that without E-bike there's the hope of
upping to 3 days per week by bike.

Now it's more likely going to stay commute 2 or 3 days by bike and do
home office on the other days (even when the standing order "do home
office if at all possible" sunsets in Mid-2022).

Rolf

On Monday, October 4, 2021 at 5:01:56 AM UTC-7, Rolf Mantel wrote:
> Am 01.10.2021 um 18:19 schrieb jbeattie:
> > And in most states, "careful filtering" -- passing on the right
> > without a bike lane -- is illegal, although generally not enforced.
> In my 'bike handling in traffic' course, it's clearly "overtake on the
> left":
> You cycle on the right; as you appraoch a traffic queue you merge into
> the lane, and if it's meaningful to overtake you do so on the left, like
> motorbikes do (passing on the right as a bicycle is legal in Germany but
> that does not reduce the danger).
>
> Luckily, for me this is a rare occurrence doe to my reverse commute.

Lane sharing is illegal in Oregon -- so passing in the lane on the left is illegal, except when a car is executing a right. It is legal in California for motorcycles, which is disturbing when I go to California. I'm sitting in traffic and all these motorcyclist are whizzing by about an inch from my door.

Passing on the right for bicycles is legal in Oregon, and yes, you want to be very careful.

-- Jay Beattie.

On Monday, October 4, 2021 at 4:54:53 AM UTC-7, Rolf Mantel wrote:
> Am 30.09.2021 um 18:59 schrieb William Crowell:
>
> > Kinetic energy increases as velocity squared. Someone going 20 mph
> > on an e-bike has to dissipate 16 times as much kinetic energy if they
> > crash than does someone going 5 mph on an ordinary bike. That is
> > easily the difference between merely bruising your head in an
> > accident and suffering a fatal skull fracture.
> This is one reason for the 14 mph limit on class-1 Ebikes in Europe:
> half the stopping distance and kinetic energy as a 20 mph ebike.
>
> 14 mph is still faster than 90% of commuters on "leasure bikes", almost
> only people of road bikes are faster.

i did a relatively quick 22 miler yesterday to test my just finished Airborne 11 speed setup. There were a few minor problems but the interesting part is that although there wasn't a lot of wind I was going straight into it a great deal. My average speed for that 22 miles was 12 mph and that is a little faster than my normal average speed over that same course. Now I'm a long experienced rider and I passed or was passed by quite a few people that most obviously did not know how to even pass people properly. What if these people were on electric bikes going a great deal faster than they knew how to handle. At one point I was crossing a bridge on the pedestrian walkway because of heavy car traffic across the steel grating. In very light traffic I will occasionally ride across this grating but this is rare. The bike tends to walk around and while I know how to handle it I don't want anyone seeing me doing that and try it themselves with the obvious level of ability that is now so common. What the hell would happen to someone on an electric bike that doesn't maintain a steady course and has a lot more speed? I normally cross these at 20 mph since it is easier to hold a steady course and get clear of that before some one comes up behind you in a truck and honks their horn when it would have been easier or them to go around.

On the bayside trail, there were a lot of walkers getting their exercise. They improperly walk on the right side of the trail so that they can't see me coming. If you call out they pivot around their left foot directly in the path of the passing bicycle. So you DON'T call out. You try to pass them as rapidly as possible so that you're already passed before they know you're there. This minimizes their being startled. Bicycles traveling in the opposite direction don't seem able to understand that you have to time your passing for that you're not in the wrong lane when a bicycle is coming in the other direction. Absolutely the last thing I want is for these sorts of people to be much faster than they can ride on a pedal bike.

Andre Jute wrote:

>>> The rail, of logs sawn in
>>> half, is festooned with reflectors to mark out the edge of the
>>> road for the motorists.

> . Once a year there's a huge meeting of Honda Gold Wing owners here,
> but whatever their dreams of thuggishness and free sex may be, you
> can judge how likely they are to realize them when I tell you that
> they organize their bash together with a big meeting of middle-aged
> Morris Minor owners.

> Andre Jute

> The blessings of Sir Alec Issigonis upon you.

<https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10057345/Car-crash-death-Swedish-artist-drew-cartoons-Mohammed-caused-burst-tyre.html>

Did Sir Alec ever mention that one ought to especially take a Mini (or a
tubeless e-bike) if one is in a hurry and the enemy expects some big
armored car? Or that a few steel ropes might not be a match for a
veering 4.5t car?

On Monday, October 4, 2021 at 8:01:56 a.m. UTC-4, Rolf Mantel wrote:
> Am 01.10.2021 um 18:19 schrieb jbeattie:
> > And in most states, "careful filtering" -- passing on the right
> > without a bike lane -- is illegal, although generally not enforced.
> In my 'bike handling in traffic' course, it's clearly "overtake on the
> left":
> You cycle on the right; as you appraoch a traffic queue you merge into
> the lane, and if it's meaningful to overtake you do so on the left, like
> motorbikes do (passing on the right as a bicycle is legal in Germany but
> that does not reduce the danger).
>
> Luckily, for me this is a rare occurrence doe to my reverse commute.

I wish bicyclists and especially E-bikers/E-scooter riders would learn to pass on the left around here. Far too many times I've been hit or nearly hit by an e-bike or e-scooter passing on my right. I think those things should require some sort of certification proving that the rider knows the rules of the road.

Cheers

On Monday, October 4, 2021 at 10:02:35 AM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
> On Monday, October 4, 2021 at 8:01:56 a.m. UTC-4, Rolf Mantel wrote:
> > Am 01.10.2021 um 18:19 schrieb jbeattie:
> > > And in most states, "careful filtering" -- passing on the right
> > > without a bike lane -- is illegal, although generally not enforced.
> > In my 'bike handling in traffic' course, it's clearly "overtake on the
> > left":
> > You cycle on the right; as you appraoch a traffic queue you merge into
> > the lane, and if it's meaningful to overtake you do so on the left, like
> > motorbikes do (passing on the right as a bicycle is legal in Germany but
> > that does not reduce the danger).
> >
> > Luckily, for me this is a rare occurrence doe to my reverse commute.
> I wish bicyclists and especially E-bikers/E-scooter riders would learn to pass on the left around here. Far too many times I've been hit or nearly hit by an e-bike or e-scooter passing on my right. I think those things should require some sort of certification proving that the rider knows the rules of the road.

I think ALL bicyclists should be licensed, registered and tattooed with a VIN. During the morning commute/Cat 6 criterium, meat-powered bicyclists will pass me as annoyingly as someone on a Class I/III e-bike. Scooters are a different thing and should be banned -- along with over-powered skateboards. At least the e-bikers are pedaling, and if they're not pedaling, then they're e-motorcyclists and should be treated as such.

I did a meat-powered ride yesterday -- a 45 mile (43 miles rounded-up for disability) boring ride to Boring, Oregon on a MUP. https://static.rootsrated.com/image/upload/s--MpHOFz_n--/t_rr_large_natural/wddzluixcyzzs6tuakza.jpg (it actually looked like that yesterday). My wife was on her e-bike, and I was riding faster than her much of the way back. She was a good racer and commuted by bike until she was disabled by a neurologic disorder, but now she can ride again. It's great. E-bikes can be a boon, but yes, the do allow for idiot-amplification.

-- Jay Beattie.

On Monday, October 4, 2021 at 5:05:01 PM UTC+1, Sepp Ruf wrote:
> Andre Jute wrote:
>
> >>> The rail, of logs sawn in
> >>> half, is festooned with reflectors to mark out the edge of the
> >>> road for the motorists.
> > . Once a year there's a huge meeting of Honda Gold Wing owners here,
> > but whatever their dreams of thuggishness and free sex may be, you
> > can judge how likely they are to realize them when I tell you that
> > they organize their bash together with a big meeting of middle-aged
> > Morris Minor owners.
> > Andre Jute
>
> > The blessings of Sir Alec Issigonis upon you.
> <https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10057345/Car-crash-death-Swedish-artist-drew-cartoons-Mohammed-caused-burst-tyre.html>
>
> Did Sir Alec ever mention that one ought to especially take a Mini (or a
> tubeless e-bike) if one is in a hurry and the enemy expects some big
> armored car? Or that a few steel ropes might not be a match for a
> veering 4.5t car?

I don't know Sir Alec's view on the matter, but can tell you he was a charming man, not confrontational at all. The designers of cars for Everyman usually are. Dante Giacosa, designer of the prewar FIAT Topolino, exactly two paces long, was apparently also charming.

My own view, from experience when the South African Bureau of State Security (BOSS!) twice sent assassins after me, the second pair trying for my life in the Forest of Devres with a car, is that a Bentley Turbo, over two and a half tons, is the weapon of choice, but if you can't have one of those, a Volvo estate car with a Chevy V8 motor for a bit of extra oomph, about a ton and a half, is an excellent substitute.

Andre Jute
In a difference of opinion between a minicar and a tailfin Cadillac, the Cadillac will always prevail..