On 10/18/2021 1:00 AM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:

<snip>

> When I bought my loaded touring bike, Trek 520, in early 1992, it was a 1991 model, it had 50-45-30 chainrings. They claimed it was half step plus granny. Ha Ha Ha. I immediately changed the 30 inner ring to a 24 tooth. It was a Shimano Deore 110/74 mm BCD chainrings. 12-28 seven speed cassette. I replaced the 28 cog with a 32 tooth. Now it had a real granny gear. The half step with 50-45 rings was never a correct half step. With half step each full step, up and down one cog, should be the same/similar percentage change. And the half steps should be half the full step. But with the five tooth difference in the chainrings, the percentage changes were wrong. I fixed that later by replacing the 50 with a 48. 48-45-24 rings with the seven speed cassette. The percentage changes were perfect then.
>
> Eventually I replaced the Trek 520 frame with a Redline touring frame. Better fitting frame. Trek 520 was too small for me. But I did not know enough when I bought it. On the new Redline touring bike I fixed the gearing so its perfect now. 44-33-20 chainrings. Ten speed SRAM cassette 11-32. Shimano 105 STI shifters. I originally had bar end shifters. But STI is better.

Trek called the 520 a "touring bike" but whoever designed it knew very
little about bicycle touring. It's more than just adding three sets of
cage bosses and bosses for a low-rider rack.

But they seem to have addressed some of the earlier flaws. It's now
48/36/26 in front, 11-36 in back. Since Shimano discontinued their
higher-end triple components the 520 now uses Sora. They have disc brake
version of the 520 now as well. It also has much better racks than in
the past.

On 10/18/2021 10:52 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 10/18/2021 4:00 AM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
>> On Sunday, October 17, 2021 at 7:33:03 PM UTC-5, Frank
>> Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 10/17/2021 2:26 PM, jbeattie wrote:
>>>> On Sunday, October 17, 2021 at 10:51:14 AM UTC-7, Frank
>>>> Krygowski wrote:
>>>>> On 10/17/2021 12:26 PM, jbeattie wrote:
>>>>>> The derailleur works great -- evil cross-chaining is
>>>>>> no problem with trim, and it provides super-snappy
>>>>>> shifting for us front-derailleur connoisseurs.
>>>>> Super-snappy! I'm so jealous. I've always had to put up
>>>>> with shifting
>>>>> that was no better than snappy.
>>>>>
>>>>> Congratulations on your purchase.
>>>>
>>>> You should try modernity, although with your half-step
>>>> derailleur, its better than the same-day service
>>>> shifting an olde-tyme FD on a standard 53/39. What's the
>>>> spread between your chain rings? Four teeth?
>>> I think it's five teeth. But I don't think about it much.
>>
>> When I bought my loaded touring bike, Trek 520, in early
>> 1992, it was a 1991 model, it had 50-45-30 chainrings.
>> They claimed it was half step plus granny. Ha Ha Ha. I
>> immediately changed the 30 inner ring to a 24 tooth. It
>> was a Shimano Deore 110/74 mm BCD chainrings. 12-28 seven
>> speed cassette. I replaced the 28 cog with a 32 tooth.
>> Now it had a real granny gear. The half step with 50-45
>> rings was never a correct half step. With half step each
>> full step, up and down one cog, should be the same/similar
>> percentage change. And the half steps should be half the
>> full step. But with the five tooth difference in the
>> chainrings, the percentage changes were wrong. I fixed
>> that later by replacing the 50 with a 48. 48-45-24 rings
>> with the seven speed cassette. The percentage changes
>> were perfect then.
>
> The size of the granny chainring is one matter. Getting a ~
> perfect half step is another matter. And yes, it was
> complicated. That was why, back in the mid-1970s I wrote a
> Fortran program to do logarithmic gear plots.
>
> Should chainrings have 3 or 4 or 5 tooth differences for the
> half step? It depends on the freewheel (I doubt there are
> many half step cassette systems). The wider the freewheel
> range and the fewer the cogs, the greater the chainring
> tooth counts.
>
> The thing is, back in the half-step days, racers didn't use
> half step and IME sometimes mocked the system. Instead,
> racers used 52-42 chainrings, changed freewheel cogs for
> important races, and didn't even bother to notice that of
> their theoretical "ten speeds," at least three were
> duplicates. Those real men muscled on with maybe seven
> ratios. For hilly courses they accepted large jumps between
> gears so they could get an acceptable gear range.
>
> Now those same (much older) gentlemen demand 11 cogs minimum
> to get acceptably small jumps between gears. Wider jumps are
> now terrible! Unless they're making the leap to 1x systems,
> where fewer gears and wider jumps are just fine...
>
>> Eventually I replaced the Trek 520 frame with a Redline
>> touring frame. Better fitting frame. Trek 520 was too
>> small for me. But I did not know enough when I bought
>> it. On the new Redline touring bike I fixed the gearing
>> so its perfect now. 44-33-20 chainrings. Ten speed SRAM
>> cassette 11-32. Shimano 105 STI shifters. I originally
>> had bar end shifters. But STI is better.
>
> Hah! Sez you!
>

Anquetil changed professional racing with his breakthrough
35x52 rather than the prior old-fashioned standard 47x51

http://classiclightweights.net/france/helyett/1963-helyett-speciale/

Trendy 1958 setup for Geminiani's victory:

http://www.bikeraceinfo.com/images-all/tdf-images/tdf-history/imageshist51/1958-5th-tappa-Bobet-e-Gemi.jpg

buncha fashionistas, those dilettante racer types.

Speaking of, here's an old-fashioned podium girl with an old
fashioned shifter posing next to him:

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/cc/6c/d6/cc6cd61c9e9407167579f3c21496e2c5.jpg
--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Monday, October 18, 2021 at 9:01:59 AM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> On 10/18/2021 3:00 AM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > On Sunday, October 17, 2021 at 7:33:03 PM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >> On 10/17/2021 2:26 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> >>> On Sunday, October 17, 2021 at 10:51:14 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>> On 10/17/2021 12:26 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> >>>>> The derailleur works great -- evil cross-chaining is no problem with trim, and it provides super-snappy shifting for us front-derailleur connoisseurs.
> >>>> Super-snappy! I'm so jealous. I've always had to put up with shifting
> >>>> that was no better than snappy.
> >>>>
> >>>> Congratulations on your purchase.
> >>>
> >>> You should try modernity, although with your half-step derailleur, its better than the same-day service shifting an olde-tyme FD on a standard 53/39. What's the spread between your chain rings? Four teeth?
> >> I think it's five teeth. But I don't think about it much.
> >
> > When I bought my loaded touring bike, Trek 520, in early 1992, it was a 1991 model, it had 50-45-30 chainrings. They claimed it was half step plus granny. Ha Ha Ha. I immediately changed the 30 inner ring to a 24 tooth. It was a Shimano Deore 110/74 mm BCD chainrings. 12-28 seven speed cassette. I replaced the 28 cog with a 32 tooth. Now it had a real granny gear. The half step with 50-45 rings was never a correct half step. With half step each full step, up and down one cog, should be the same/similar percentage change. And the half steps should be half the full step. But with the five tooth difference in the chainrings, the percentage changes were wrong. I fixed that later by replacing the 50 with a 48. 48-45-24 rings with the seven speed cassette. The percentage changes were perfect then.
> >
> > Eventually I replaced the Trek 520 frame with a Redline touring frame. Better fitting frame. Trek 520 was too small for me. But I did not know enough when I bought it. On the new Redline touring bike I fixed the gearing so its perfect now. 44-33-20 chainrings. Ten speed SRAM cassette 11-32. Shimano 105 STI shifters. I originally had bar end shifters. But STI is better.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> I know that I have better shifting with a 16 tooth spread, 50/34 -- and
> >> its on my brake . . . snak, done. No yanking at my bar end (or getting
> >> poked by my bar end).
> >> Ssshhh! If the hazard of "getting poked" by bar end shifters is
> >> revealed, the CPSC will require foam shift lever covers. And once they
> >> write the rule for bar ends, the even sharper levers of STI will be next
> >> in line. You'll live to regret it!
> >>
> >> Except by then you'll probably be all Di2, and mocking anyone who has to
> >> move their fingers more than half an inch.
> >>
> >> --
> >> - Frank Krygowski
> We were very happy with the Redline cross series aluminum
> frames but isn't that significantly shorter wheelbase than a
> Trek 520?
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

For a few years back in the early 2000s I think, Redline made a Redline Conquest Tour frame. I guess touring bikes were hot for a few years and Redline tried to cash in. Basically they took their cyclocross frame and added a fender/rack mount in back and put a new fork on it that accepted low rider racks. Touring bike frame!!!!!!!!! They may have changed a few other things too. But it was basically their cyclocross frame.
I think they only made it a couple years. Not a big seller. My Trek 520 frame was too small when I bought it. So I always wanted to get the right size touring frame to replace it. Online searching and I found this Redline Tour frame and fork. I forgot the exact price I paid. But it was really cheap. Size was a little large, but much better than the way too small Trek 520 frame I had. Had a Nitto Technomic 12cm quill stem raised as high as possible on the Trek. So I went for it. And it has worked out OK. Redline frame is a little too big, but with a shorter 10cm stem and zero setback seatpost, its a perfect fit. So I am very happy with it. Good frame/fork. Aluminum of course. Both frame and fork. And its RED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

On Monday, October 18, 2021 at 10:52:16 AM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 10/18/2021 4:00 AM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > On Sunday, October 17, 2021 at 7:33:03 PM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >> On 10/17/2021 2:26 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> >>> On Sunday, October 17, 2021 at 10:51:14 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>> On 10/17/2021 12:26 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> >>>>> The derailleur works great -- evil cross-chaining is no problem with trim, and it provides super-snappy shifting for us front-derailleur connoisseurs.
> >>>> Super-snappy! I'm so jealous. I've always had to put up with shifting
> >>>> that was no better than snappy.
> >>>>
> >>>> Congratulations on your purchase.
> >>>
> >>> You should try modernity, although with your half-step derailleur, its better than the same-day service shifting an olde-tyme FD on a standard 53/39. What's the spread between your chain rings? Four teeth?
> >> I think it's five teeth. But I don't think about it much.
> >
> > When I bought my loaded touring bike, Trek 520, in early 1992, it was a 1991 model, it had 50-45-30 chainrings. They claimed it was half step plus granny. Ha Ha Ha. I immediately changed the 30 inner ring to a 24 tooth. It was a Shimano Deore 110/74 mm BCD chainrings. 12-28 seven speed cassette. I replaced the 28 cog with a 32 tooth. Now it had a real granny gear. The half step with 50-45 rings was never a correct half step. With half step each full step, up and down one cog, should be the same/similar percentage change. And the half steps should be half the full step. But with the five tooth difference in the chainrings, the percentage changes were wrong. I fixed that later by replacing the 50 with a 48. 48-45-24 rings with the seven speed cassette. The percentage changes were perfect then.
> The size of the granny chainring is one matter. Getting a ~ perfect half
> step is another matter. And yes, it was complicated. That was why, back
> in the mid-1970s I wrote a Fortran program to do logarithmic gear plots.
>
> Should chainrings have 3 or 4 or 5 tooth differences for the half step?
> It depends on the freewheel (I doubt there are many half step cassette
> systems). The wider the freewheel range and the fewer the cogs, the
> greater the chainring tooth counts.
>
> The thing is, back in the half-step days, racers didn't use half step
> and IME sometimes mocked the system. Instead, racers used 52-42
> chainrings, changed freewheel cogs for important races, and didn't even
> bother to notice that of their theoretical "ten speeds," at least three
> were duplicates. Those real men muscled on with maybe seven ratios. For
> hilly courses they accepted large jumps between gears so they could get
> an acceptable gear range.
>
> Now those same (much older) gentlemen demand 11 cogs minimum to get
> acceptably small jumps between gears. Wider jumps are now terrible!
> Unless they're making the leap to 1x systems, where fewer gears and
> wider jumps are just fine...
> > Eventually I replaced the Trek 520 frame with a Redline touring frame. Better fitting frame. Trek 520 was too small for me. But I did not know enough when I bought it. On the new Redline touring bike I fixed the gearing so its perfect now. 44-33-20 chainrings. Ten speed SRAM cassette 11-32. Shimano 105 STI shifters. I originally had bar end shifters. But STI is better.
> Hah! Sez you!
>
> --
> - Frank Krygowski

I forgot to mention it above. But when I switched to the NEW Redline touring frame, which is very good, I changed the gearing on the touring bike too.. Kept the crankarms only basically. And wheels and bars. New TA chainrings and an Avid Tri adapter. It allowed me to use the 74mm BCD holes to mount a 58mm BCD 20 tooth inner ring. And I went with 44-33 outer and middle rings. And went to 10 speed cassette. 11-32. And Shimano 105 STI levers.. New Avid cantilever brakes too. Might have even changed from the old Ideale leather saddle to a new Brooks B17. New ten speed cassette with 44-33 rings gives closely spaced gear jumps. No need to monkey around with half step anymore when you have 9-10 or more cog cassettes. 5-6-7 speed freewheels, half step has advantages.

On Monday, October 18, 2021 at 10:55:12 AM UTC-5, sms wrote:
> On 10/18/2021 1:00 AM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> <snip>
> > When I bought my loaded touring bike, Trek 520, in early 1992, it was a 1991 model, it had 50-45-30 chainrings. They claimed it was half step plus granny. Ha Ha Ha. I immediately changed the 30 inner ring to a 24 tooth. It was a Shimano Deore 110/74 mm BCD chainrings. 12-28 seven speed cassette. I replaced the 28 cog with a 32 tooth. Now it had a real granny gear. The half step with 50-45 rings was never a correct half step. With half step each full step, up and down one cog, should be the same/similar percentage change. And the half steps should be half the full step. But with the five tooth difference in the chainrings, the percentage changes were wrong. I fixed that later by replacing the 50 with a 48. 48-45-24 rings with the seven speed cassette. The percentage changes were perfect then.
> >
> > Eventually I replaced the Trek 520 frame with a Redline touring frame. Better fitting frame. Trek 520 was too small for me. But I did not know enough when I bought it. On the new Redline touring bike I fixed the gearing so its perfect now. 44-33-20 chainrings. Ten speed SRAM cassette 11-32. Shimano 105 STI shifters. I originally had bar end shifters. But STI is better.
> Trek called the 520 a "touring bike" but whoever designed it knew very
> little about bicycle touring. It's more than just adding three sets of
> cage bosses and bosses for a low-rider rack.
>
> But they seem to have addressed some of the earlier flaws. It's now
> 48/36/26 in front, 11-36 in back. Since Shimano discontinued their
> higher-end triple components the 520 now uses Sora. They have disc brake
> version of the 520 now as well. It also has much better racks than in
> the past.

The factory gearing on the older Trek 520 bikes was not exactly correct. True. But it was pretty easy to fix the important parts that needed fixing to make it usable. New 24 tooth inner ring was $20 installed at the bike shop. New 32 cog to replace the not big enough 28 cog on the cassette was cheap and easy to get too. Other than that, I don't have any complaints about the 520 for loaded touring. All the rack mounts and eyelets were on the bike. And I put on many thousands of miles of loaded touring on the 520. Dolomites in Italy. Alps in Switzerland. Rockies in Colorado. Little hills in Portugal. Only real problem with my Trek 520 was it was too small for me. My fault for buying the wrong size bike.

On 10/18/2021 10:58 AM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:

<snip>

> The factory gearing on the older Trek 520 bikes was not exactly correct. True. But it was pretty easy to fix the important parts that needed fixing to make it usable. New 24 tooth inner ring was $20 installed at the bike shop. New 32 cog to replace the not big enough 28 cog on the cassette was cheap and easy to get too. Other than that, I don't have any complaints about the 520 for loaded touring. All the rack mounts and eyelets were on the bike. And I put on many thousands of miles of loaded touring on the 520. Dolomites in Italy. Alps in Switzerland. Rockies in Colorado. Little hills in Portugal. Only real problem with my Trek 520 was it was too small for me. My fault for buying the wrong size bike.

All true, but I think that most people are looking for "a product, not a
project," especially when spending a lot of money. At the height of the
bicycle touring craze, you could choose from a Miyata 1000, a
Specialized Expedition, or a Trek 520. There were others, less available
in the U.S., like the Panasonic Pro Touring, as well as something from
Shogun, and I believe something from Fuji.

I think that if I replaced my Specialized Expedition I'd get a Surly
Disc Long Haul Trucker.

On Monday, October 18, 2021 at 11:15:34 AM UTC-7, sms wrote:
> On 10/18/2021 10:58 AM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> <snip>
> > The factory gearing on the older Trek 520 bikes was not exactly correct.. True. But it was pretty easy to fix the important parts that needed fixing to make it usable. New 24 tooth inner ring was $20 installed at the bike shop. New 32 cog to replace the not big enough 28 cog on the cassette was cheap and easy to get too. Other than that, I don't have any complaints about the 520 for loaded touring. All the rack mounts and eyelets were on the bike. And I put on many thousands of miles of loaded touring on the 520. Dolomites in Italy. Alps in Switzerland. Rockies in Colorado. Little hills in Portugal. Only real problem with my Trek 520 was it was too small for me. My fault for buying the wrong size bike.
> All true, but I think that most people are looking for "a product, not a
> project," especially when spending a lot of money. At the height of the
> bicycle touring craze, you could choose from a Miyata 1000, a
> Specialized Expedition, or a Trek 520. There were others, less available
> in the U.S., like the Panasonic Pro Touring, as well as something from
> Shogun, and I believe something from Fuji.
>
> I think that if I replaced my Specialized Expedition I'd get a Surly
> Disc Long Haul Trucker.

The Expedition was produced from '83-85, which was after the height of the bicycle touring craze, which was in 1981 -- some time around September 21st -- maybe the 22nd. That was the absolute peak, and it was all downhill from there. Touring was pretty niche in the '70s, and lots of people built from scratch -- a lot on Bob Jackson and other British frames. https://www.flickr.com/photos/zbillster/albums/72157606789001880/ And a lot of people just rode 10 speeds, even into the late '70s and early '80s when OTC touring bikes became more common. They would just get a bike and take off.

I rode from SJ up to Canada in '76 and encountered some of the first Bikecentennial riders, many of whom were on OTC 10 speeds. You would listen to them complaining about saddle sores and the dissolution of their marriages in the campground bathrooms. They just went to the local bike shop with their wives/girlfriends, bought bikes/bags/racks and took off -- which was kind of mind-boggling to me. I did the coast-to-coast thing in '81 and ran into two frat brothers -- great guys who we rode with for a week or more -- and they just went and bought some Peugeot sport bikes and bolted on racks. Low gear was like 42/24. They had a unique climbing style -- hammer out of the saddle as long as they could and then rest, hammer, rest, repeat. We first encountered them riding over McKenzie Pass in a rainstorm (with snow at the top), and they had bread bags on their feet and were wearing trash-can liner ponchos. It's amazing what works for some people. I had an uber-expensive first generation Goretex Anorak from a now, long-defunct company -- Yakwear/Yakworks. https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Vchyn0UuRUo/Tcoyooh8qPI/AAAAAAAALnw/F2s5_60yUPk/s1600/rivendellandyakworks038.jpg I also had a first generation Early Winters Goretex single-wall tent. Both leaked like sieves.

-- Jay Beattie.

On 10/18/2021 1:34 PM, jbeattie wrote:

<snip>

> The Expedition was produced from '83-85, which was after the height of the bicycle touring craze, which was in 1981 -- some time around September 21st -- maybe the 22nd. That was the absolute peak, and it was all downhill from there. Touring was pretty niche in the '70s, and lots of people built from scratch -- a lot on Bob Jackson and other British frames. https://www.flickr.com/photos/zbillster/albums/72157606789001880/ And a lot of people just rode 10 speeds, even into the late '70s and early '80s when OTC touring bikes became more common. They would just get a bike and take off.

Mine is an '84. I bought it when the 85s were coming out and the dealers
had clearance sales on the 84s. I think I paid $499 or $399, I can't
remember. Got it at Talbot's in San Mateo because Shaw's was more
expensive. I remember buying the Blackburn Low Rider front rack and the
fork braze-ons didn't match the racks. I ran into someone from either
Blackburn or Specialized at some event and mentioned it to them and they
mailed me pair of adapters (fit? we'll make it fit!).

> I rode from SJ up to Canada in '76 and encountered some of the first Bikecentennial riders, many of whom were on OTC 10 speeds. You would listen to them complaining about saddle sores and the dissolution of their marriages in the campground bathrooms. They just went to the local bike shop with their wives/girlfriends, bought bikes/bags/racks and took off -- which was kind of mind-boggling to me. I did the coast-to-coast thing in '81 and ran into two frat brothers -- great guys who we rode with for a week or more -- and they just went and bought some Peugeot sport bikes and bolted on racks. Low gear was like 42/24.

They just had it reversed from what it should have been.

They had a unique climbing style -- hammer out of the saddle as long
as they could and then rest, hammer, rest, repeat. We first
encountered them riding over McKenzie Pass in a rainstorm (with snow at
the top), and they had bread bags on their feet and were wearing
trash-can liner ponchos. It's amazing what works for some people. I
had an uber-expensive first generation Goretex Anorak from a now,
long-defunct company -- Yakwear/Yakworks.
https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Vchyn0UuRUo/Tcoyooh8qPI/AAAAAAAALnw/F2s5_60yUPk/s1600/rivendellandyakworks038.jpg
I also had a first generation Early Winters Goretex single-wall
tent. Both leaked like sieves.

I had a Yak Works sleeping bag at some point. It was rather unique as it
was the only Thinsulate sleeping bag. The other synthetic bags were
Polarguard or some other synthetic and were much larger, see
<https://books.google.com/books?id=QFYKqzNP8FwC&pg=PA75&lpg=PA75>. I
think that I still have it.

Remember Frostline kits? <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frostline_Kits>.

On Monday, October 18, 2021 at 3:34:44 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
> On Monday, October 18, 2021 at 11:15:34 AM UTC-7, sms wrote:
> > On 10/18/2021 10:58 AM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >
> > <snip>
> > > The factory gearing on the older Trek 520 bikes was not exactly correct. True. But it was pretty easy to fix the important parts that needed fixing to make it usable. New 24 tooth inner ring was $20 installed at the bike shop. New 32 cog to replace the not big enough 28 cog on the cassette was cheap and easy to get too. Other than that, I don't have any complaints about the 520 for loaded touring. All the rack mounts and eyelets were on the bike. And I put on many thousands of miles of loaded touring on the 520. Dolomites in Italy. Alps in Switzerland. Rockies in Colorado. Little hills in Portugal. Only real problem with my Trek 520 was it was too small for me. My fault for buying the wrong size bike.
> > All true, but I think that most people are looking for "a product, not a
> > project," especially when spending a lot of money. At the height of the
> > bicycle touring craze, you could choose from a Miyata 1000, a
> > Specialized Expedition, or a Trek 520. There were others, less available
> > in the U.S., like the Panasonic Pro Touring, as well as something from
> > Shogun, and I believe something from Fuji.
> >
> > I think that if I replaced my Specialized Expedition I'd get a Surly
> > Disc Long Haul Trucker.
> The Expedition was produced from '83-85, which was after the height of the bicycle touring craze, which was in 1981 -- some time around September 21st -- maybe the 22nd. That was the absolute peak, and it was all downhill from there. Touring was pretty niche in the '70s, and lots of people built from scratch -- a lot on Bob Jackson and other British frames. https://www.flickr.com/photos/zbillster/albums/72157606789001880/ And a lot of people just rode 10 speeds, even into the late '70s and early '80s when OTC touring bikes became more common. They would just get a bike and take off.
>
> I rode from SJ up to Canada in '76 and encountered some of the first Bikecentennial riders, many of whom were on OTC 10 speeds. You would listen to them complaining about saddle sores and the dissolution of their marriages in the campground bathrooms. They just went to the local bike shop with their wives/girlfriends, bought bikes/bags/racks and took off -- which was kind of mind-boggling to me. I did the coast-to-coast thing in '81 and ran into two frat brothers -- great guys who we rode with for a week or more -- and they just went and bought some Peugeot sport bikes and bolted on racks. Low gear was like 42/24. They had a unique climbing style -- hammer out of the saddle as long as they could and then rest, hammer, rest, repeat. We first encountered them riding over McKenzie Pass in a rainstorm (with snow at the top), and they had bread bags on their feet and were wearing trash-can liner ponchos. It's amazing what works for some people. I had an uber-expensive first generation Goretex Anorak from a now, long-defunct company -- Yakwear/Yakworks. https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Vchyn0UuRUo/Tcoyooh8qPI/AAAAAAAALnw/F2s5_60yUPk/s1600/rivendellandyakworks038.jpg I also had a first generation Early Winters Goretex single-wall tent. Both leaked like sieves.
>
> -- Jay Beattie.

RAGBRAI 1981. July 27. Worst day of bicycling in the history of the world.. Even worse than Andy in the Giro. RAIN RAIN RAIN. COLD COLD COLD. 50s for temps. Every rider had the garbage bag poncho. I did. No bread bags on the feet.

On Monday, October 18, 2021 at 2:07:18 PM UTC-7, sms wrote:
> On 10/18/2021 1:34 PM, jbeattie wrote:
>
> <snip>
> > The Expedition was produced from '83-85, which was after the height of the bicycle touring craze, which was in 1981 -- some time around September 21st -- maybe the 22nd. That was the absolute peak, and it was all downhill from there. Touring was pretty niche in the '70s, and lots of people built from scratch -- a lot on Bob Jackson and other British frames. https://www..flickr.com/photos/zbillster/albums/72157606789001880/ And a lot of people just rode 10 speeds, even into the late '70s and early '80s when OTC touring bikes became more common. They would just get a bike and take off.
> Mine is an '84. I bought it when the 85s were coming out and the dealers
> had clearance sales on the 84s. I think I paid $499 or $399, I can't
> remember. Got it at Talbot's in San Mateo because Shaw's was more
> expensive. I remember buying the Blackburn Low Rider front rack and the
> fork braze-ons didn't match the racks. I ran into someone from either
> Blackburn or Specialized at some event and mentioned it to them and they
> mailed me pair of adapters (fit? we'll make it fit!).
> > I rode from SJ up to Canada in '76 and encountered some of the first Bikecentennial riders, many of whom were on OTC 10 speeds. You would listen to them complaining about saddle sores and the dissolution of their marriages in the campground bathrooms. They just went to the local bike shop with their wives/girlfriends, bought bikes/bags/racks and took off -- which was kind of mind-boggling to me. I did the coast-to-coast thing in '81 and ran into two frat brothers -- great guys who we rode with for a week or more -- and they just went and bought some Peugeot sport bikes and bolted on racks. Low gear was like 42/24.
> They just had it reversed from what it should have been.
> They had a unique climbing style -- hammer out of the saddle as long
> as they could and then rest, hammer, rest, repeat. We first
> encountered them riding over McKenzie Pass in a rainstorm (with snow at
> the top), and they had bread bags on their feet and were wearing
> trash-can liner ponchos. It's amazing what works for some people. I
> had an uber-expensive first generation Goretex Anorak from a now,
> long-defunct company -- Yakwear/Yakworks.
> https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Vchyn0UuRUo/Tcoyooh8qPI/AAAAAAAALnw/F2s5_60yUPk/s1600/rivendellandyakworks038.jpg
> I also had a first generation Early Winters Goretex single-wall
> tent. Both leaked like sieves.
> I had a Yak Works sleeping bag at some point. It was rather unique as it
> was the only Thinsulate sleeping bag. The other synthetic bags were
> Polarguard or some other synthetic and were much larger, see
> <https://books.google.com/books?id=QFYKqzNP8FwC&pg=PA75&lpg=PA75>. I
> think that I still have it.
>
> Remember Frostline kits? <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frostline_Kits>.

I still have a Frostline jacket sewn by my amazing seamstress college girlfriend -- who rode across the US with me. I also have my '74/5 Western Mountaineering bag, which was a somewhat unique, tight fitting design to reduce weight.

Speaking of Terry Shaw, I first met him at a shop owned by a guy named Steve Bleiler who occupied the space that became Western Mountaineering. Bleiler went bankrupt . . . with my PX10 that I was selling on consignment and my deposit for a Proteus frame. I got the bike back but not the deposit. At about the same time, Terry opened his own shop on E. Williams in the tiny space that had previously been occupied by Bleiler before he had gone to the future Western Mountaineering space. It was like hermit crabs changing shells -- except guys with beards running boutique bike shops. Unbelievably that space is still a bike shop, but it was only half the space originally occupied by Terry. https://tinyurl.com/pbr4xwhd

Terry sold Miyata 1000s and Holdsworth, which I think made a touring frame, among others. I don't know if he had Bob Jackson. I remember seeing my first Jim Merz frame there -- special ordered from exotic and far-away Ory-gun.. Jim later became one of the builders in residence at Specialized. https://www.facebook.com/merzbicycles Terry would give me crap because I bought frames made by my friend Dale Saso. Terry would faintly bad-mouth Dale, probably because he sold his frames too cheap -- until he became locally famous, and then you had to wait forever for a frame, unless you were me. I think I bought his fourth or fifth frame -- I can't remember, but it was an act of faith that paid off, and I basically lived at his shop. I bought a ton of stuff from Terry, too -- particularly when he was at the E. Williams street location. He had twice a week shop rides that were flat-out races populated by state champs, many of the guys from Specialized and some of the guys who rode with Jobst and show up in his pictures. Terry would also post daily telex results from the TdF, which was basically the only place I could go to get the standings. You talk about peak times -- that was it, the early mid-70s. Specialized was taking off, Blackburn too, and PAB and all sorts of local builders like Ritchey, Caylor, Lyons, Saso and all the Eisentraut protegees and whoever Spence Wolf was promoting at Cupertino Bikes. In far away Wisconsin, Trek was starting. You could still buy boxes of spokes cheap. It was a perfect world.

-- Jay Beattie.

On 10/18/2021 5:13 PM, jbeattie wrote:

<snip>

>> Remember Frostline kits? <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frostline_Kits>.
>
> I still have a Frostline jacket sewn by my amazing seamstress college girlfriend -- who rode across the US with me. I also have my '74/5 Western Mountaineering bag, which was a somewhat unique, tight fitting design to reduce weight.
>
> Speaking of Terry Shaw, I first met him at a shop owned by a guy named Steve Bleiler who occupied the space that became Western Mountaineering. Bleiler went bankrupt . . . with my PX10 that I was selling on consignment and my deposit for a Proteus frame. I got the bike back but not the deposit. At about the same time, Terry opened his own shop on E. Williams in the tiny space that had previously been occupied by Bleiler before he had gone to the future Western Mountaineering space. It was like hermit crabs changing shells -- except guys with beards running boutique bike shops. Unbelievably that space is still a bike shop, but it was only half the space originally occupied by Terry. https://tinyurl.com/pbr4xwhd

<snip>

> Spence Wolf was promoting at Cupertino Bikes. In far away Wisconsin, Trek was starting. You could still buy boxes of spokes cheap. It was a perfect world.

I only went to Shaw's when it was on Washington in Santa Clara.

Cupertino Bike Shop just moved again because their old building is being
torn down for a housing project. They are no longer in Cupertino. They
took over an old Kelly Moore paint store.

Only one bike shop left in Cupertino, a shop that does only mountain
bikes. They took over an old gun store that had been their for ages.
Some nice re-use of signs: <https://i.imgur.com/uCt1Alk.png>.

On 10/18/2021 1:49 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> No need to monkey around with half step anymore when you have 9-10 or more cog cassettes. 5-6-7 speed freewheels, half step has advantages.

I agree. If I were buying a new bike today, I wouldn't buy a half step
system. But I have no desire to convert my good old half step bikes to
more modern systems. They've worked fine.

One nice benefit: The only time my Cannondale touring bike ever broke a
spoke was after I loaned it to a friend. To my horror, he rode into some
soft sand, stalled out, dropped the bike and stood on the rear wheel
spokes.

I attribute the wheel strength to having much less dish than typical
today. Oh, and with the current wheels, to my skill at wheel building. ;-)

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Mon, 18 Oct 2021 07:44:45 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute
<fiultra1@yahoo.com> wrote:

>I've probably published 20 million words in my life, including 60 or 70 full-length books, so I'm a connoisseur of keyboards,

Ok. I'll assume you know how to operate a keyboard.

>They recently signed a consent order with and paid a fine in
>some tens of millions of euro to the EU for programming
>OS updates deliberately to slow down older devices to
>force people hanging on to them to buy new ones.

Not exactly. They were trying to solve a problem. As their battery
aged, its capacity, and therefore the phone's runtime, would decrease.
In order to extend the useful life of the phone, they slowed down the
clock rate, which reduced power consumption, and therefore extended
the runtime. For example, if a new phone ran for 8 hrs before giving
up, a 5 year old phone would also run of 8 hrs, but would run slower.
The problem was that they didn't inform the buyer of the intentional
slowdown and compounded it by designing the phone so that the battery
was too small and very difficult to replace.

>That infuriates me as I hate being an unpaid beta-tester for
>unproven gear and software

You're being generous. I suspect that the reason you're angry is that
you trusted Apple to do the right thing and instead they delivered an
inferior product. You also paid a premium for the phone, which comes
with the expectation of being better than the competition. In other
words, you probably felt cheated. Yet, you will probably continue to
believe that Apple is your friend, that Apple can do no wrong, and
that paying extra for Apple quality is a worthwhile investment. Guess
which company invented the now common 5 year product life, and the
"vintage" and "obsolete" designations?
<https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201624>

>indeed, people pay Apple and the software vendors for the privilege
>of being unpaid beta testers. I pay for gear that works and I make
>no allowances. I'm on ai iPhone SE (2016) I bought NOS last year
>when I searched high and low for an NOS 4S, and have no idea what
>I will do when the SE becomes obsolete because everything else is
>so grotesquely large and clumsy. (1)

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPhone_SE_(1st_generation)>
If Apple continues to support the SE (1st gen) for 5 years after it
was last produced, which was about 3 years ago, you have another 2
years of support left.

>However, the A1314 gave solid service but I don't think I'll
>replace it with the rather pricey rebuilt or promised-good A1314
>offered in the link you so graciously supplied.

Since I used to run a repair business, most of what I sold were
repairs of used equipment. Due to the lack of availability of Apple
parts, there was a rather lucrative market for refurbished equipment
and parts. However, I'm now officially retired and therefore don't
care as much.

I guess everyone has their favorite keyboard. For me, it's the Dell
SK-8115, SK-8135 and variations:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=dell+sk-8135&tbm=isch>
There's nothing superior or unique about this keyboard. The only
major defect is the screened white letters eventually rub off. I
think I have about 10 fairly new keyboards and a rather large bag of
salvaged keycaps.

Good luck with reviving the function and number keys. I have a
feeling that it's not a failure but rather a problem with some obscure
setting.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Monday, October 18, 2021 at 7:13:07 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
> On Monday, October 18, 2021 at 2:07:18 PM UTC-7, sms wrote:
> > On 10/18/2021 1:34 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> >
> > <snip>
> > > The Expedition was produced from '83-85, which was after the height of the bicycle touring craze, which was in 1981 -- some time around September 21st -- maybe the 22nd. That was the absolute peak, and it was all downhill from there. Touring was pretty niche in the '70s, and lots of people built from scratch -- a lot on Bob Jackson and other British frames. https://www.flickr.com/photos/zbillster/albums/72157606789001880/ And a lot of people just rode 10 speeds, even into the late '70s and early '80s when OTC touring bikes became more common. They would just get a bike and take off.
> > Mine is an '84. I bought it when the 85s were coming out and the dealers
> > had clearance sales on the 84s. I think I paid $499 or $399, I can't
> > remember. Got it at Talbot's in San Mateo because Shaw's was more
> > expensive. I remember buying the Blackburn Low Rider front rack and the
> > fork braze-ons didn't match the racks. I ran into someone from either
> > Blackburn or Specialized at some event and mentioned it to them and they
> > mailed me pair of adapters (fit? we'll make it fit!).
> > > I rode from SJ up to Canada in '76 and encountered some of the first Bikecentennial riders, many of whom were on OTC 10 speeds. You would listen to them complaining about saddle sores and the dissolution of their marriages in the campground bathrooms. They just went to the local bike shop with their wives/girlfriends, bought bikes/bags/racks and took off -- which was kind of mind-boggling to me. I did the coast-to-coast thing in '81 and ran into two frat brothers -- great guys who we rode with for a week or more -- and they just went and bought some Peugeot sport bikes and bolted on racks. Low gear was like 42/24.
> > They just had it reversed from what it should have been.
> > They had a unique climbing style -- hammer out of the saddle as long
> > as they could and then rest, hammer, rest, repeat. We first
> > encountered them riding over McKenzie Pass in a rainstorm (with snow at
> > the top), and they had bread bags on their feet and were wearing
> > trash-can liner ponchos. It's amazing what works for some people. I
> > had an uber-expensive first generation Goretex Anorak from a now,
> > long-defunct company -- Yakwear/Yakworks.
> > https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Vchyn0UuRUo/Tcoyooh8qPI/AAAAAAAALnw/F2s5_60yUPk/s1600/rivendellandyakworks038.jpg
> > I also had a first generation Early Winters Goretex single-wall
> > tent. Both leaked like sieves.
> > I had a Yak Works sleeping bag at some point. It was rather unique as it
> > was the only Thinsulate sleeping bag. The other synthetic bags were
> > Polarguard or some other synthetic and were much larger, see
> > <https://books.google.com/books?id=QFYKqzNP8FwC&pg=PA75&lpg=PA75>.. I
> > think that I still have it.
> >
> > Remember Frostline kits? <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frostline_Kits>..
> I still have a Frostline jacket sewn by my amazing seamstress college girlfriend -- who rode across the US with me. I also have my '74/5 Western Mountaineering bag, which was a somewhat unique, tight fitting design to reduce weight.
>
> Speaking of Terry Shaw, I first met him at a shop owned by a guy named Steve Bleiler who occupied the space that became Western Mountaineering. Bleiler went bankrupt . . . with my PX10 that I was selling on consignment and my deposit for a Proteus frame. I got the bike back but not the deposit. At about the same time, Terry opened his own shop on E. Williams in the tiny space that had previously been occupied by Bleiler before he had gone to the future Western Mountaineering space. It was like hermit crabs changing shells -- except guys with beards running boutique bike shops. Unbelievably that space is still a bike shop, but it was only half the space originally occupied by Terry. https://tinyurl.com/pbr4xwhd
>
> Terry sold Miyata 1000s and Holdsworth, which I think made a touring frame, among others.

Yes Holdsworth made a loaded touring frame/fork. Friend of mine has one. Still using it for touring.

I don't know if he had Bob Jackson. I remember seeing my first Jim Merz frame there -- special ordered from exotic and far-away Ory-gun.. Jim later became one of the builders in residence at Specialized. https://www.facebook..com/merzbicycles Terry would give me crap because I bought frames made by my friend Dale Saso. Terry would faintly bad-mouth Dale, probably because he sold his frames too cheap -- until he became locally famous, and then you had to wait forever for a frame, unless you were me. I think I bought his fourth or fifth frame -- I can't remember, but it was an act of faith that paid off, and I basically lived at his shop. I bought a ton of stuff from Terry, too -- particularly when he was at the E. Williams street location. He had twice a week shop rides that were flat-out races populated by state champs, many of the guys from Specialized and some of the guys who rode with Jobst and show up in his pictures. Terry would also post daily telex results from the TdF, which was basically the only place I could go to get the standings. You talk about peak times -- that was it, the early mid-70s. Specialized was taking off, Blackburn too, and PAB and all sorts of local builders like Ritchey, Caylor, Lyons, Saso and all the Eisentraut protegees and whoever Spence Wolf was promoting at Cupertino Bikes. In far away Wisconsin, Trek was starting. You could still buy boxes of spokes cheap. It was a perfect world.
>
> -- Jay Beattie.

On Monday, October 18, 2021 at 4:10:33 PM UTC+1, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, October 17, 2021 at 11:17:50 AM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
> > On Sunday, October 17, 2021 at 5:26:10 PM UTC+1, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Sun, 17 Oct 2021 07:47:26 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute
> > > <fiul...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > >On Sunday, October 17, 2021 at 9:53:22 AM UTC+1, Andre Jute wrote:
> > > >> On Sunday, October 17, 2021 at 3:44:09 AM UTC+1, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > >> > On Sat, 16 Oct 2021 01:43:54 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute
> > > >> > <fiul...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > >> >
> > > >> > > But at some point -- not immediately -- the ;numeric row and the function key row of the Apple keyboard went AWOL -- not totally but from 1 to 9 and except for the music/volume control buttons in the function row.. I can work without the function keys, if less conveniently, but it is impossible to work without the numeric row because Apple demands alphanumeric security codes.
> > > >> > You are not alone:
> > > >> > <https://www.google.com/search?q=apple+keyboard+1-9+not+working>
> > > >> > This thread looks useful:
> > > >> > <https://discussions.apple.com/thread/6520362>
> > > >> > However, I suspect that SMS's suggestion for fixing the cursor problem
> > > >> > may also apply to the function and number key rows. Try turning off
> > > >> > "mouse keys".
> > > >> Thanks, Jeff. Am investigating the links and all places where mouse keys might hide on the Bluetooth net. Just found another one in my iPhone SE, which arrived about the same time as the iPad Pro, but it too isn't the operative Mouse Key. My favorite line in all the movies is from Ghostbusters: "It isn't *my* girlfriend who lives in the corner penthouse at Spook Central!" I'm starting to wonder if my house isn't haunted by the ghosts I made fun of in our family house, St John Palace. -- AJ
> > > >
> > > >Removed the keyboard that was giving the trouble from the iMac's device list and can't add it again because the pairing code is 8 numbers from the list dud row. Both anger. Pissed off as this was my last one from the good ali keyboards with the round battery compartment/foot; everything since has been progressively cheaper until now Apple doesn't even give you a keyboard with your Mac, or a charger with your phone; their excuse is "because the environment" -- that has the sound of "because our profits". -- AJ
> > > This is turning into a challenge. Three suggestions:
> > >
> > > 1. Normally, you can simulate any key on your keyboard with an "alt
> > > code" on your Mac Keyboard. Before you can do this on a Mac, you need
> > > to temporarily change your keyboard language setting to "Unicode Hex
> > > Input":
> > > <https://www.webnots.com/how-to-use-unicode-hex-input-method-in-mac/>
> > > Once that's done, you can simulate the number "1" by holding down the
> > > option/alt key while typing 0031 and such for the other numbers.
> > > Summary of alt code shortcuts for MacOS:
> > > <https://www.webnots.com/option-or-alt-key-shortcuts-to-insert-symbols-in-mac-os-x/>
> > > For testing and to see what you're doing, try the "character viewer"
> > > using "Command + Control + Space".
> > >
> > > 2. Turn on the on-screen keyboard and use it to type in the BT
> > > pairing numbers:
> > > <https://support.apple.com/guide/mac-help/use-the-accessibility-keyboard-mchlc74c1c9f/mac>
> > > so that you can reconnect your external keyboard.
> > >
> > > 3. You can also use your iPhone as a BT wireless mouse and/or
> > > keyboard:
> > > <https://www.howtogeek.com/732974/how-to-use-your-iphone-or-ipad-as-a-wireless-mouse-or-keyboard/>
> > > <https://apps.apple.com/us/app/remote-mouse/id385894596#?platform=iphone>
> > >
> > > Note: I do mostly Windoze, Linux and Android. I gave up on Apple
> > > products long ago for reasons I don't want to discuss in RBT.
> > > --
> > > Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
> > > PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
> > > Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
> > > Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
> > Thanks again, Jeff. I tried it with the onscreen keyboard earlier, and repeated the experiment on hand of your post. No luck. There I think I'll leave it be before I'm accused of Scrooge-like obsession with saving a 10 year-old keyboard with most of the indices worn off
> >
> > Andre Jute
> > 1911-1921 RIP A1314 best keyboard I ever used.
> Once upon a time they used to make keyboards that had the letters and numbers pressed into the plastic and paint embedded into them so that it was essentially impossible to wear the lettering off. No more and I now wear the letters off within mere months. My present keyboard is now two years old and half of the letters are gone. Good thing I am a touch typist, though when the cat decides she is going to take over my lap I'm a one finger typist since I then have to put the keyboard from lap to top of computer. Then I need to see at least some of the letters to know my position.
..
Everything is made cheaper. I think the only reason Apple hasn't moved their design staff to China is the financial value of "Designed in California, made in China." It's a pisspoor comment on what has happened to American craftsmanship that that "Designed in China, made in California", wouldn't sell half as well. -- AJ

On Monday, October 18, 2021 at 4:55:12 PM UTC+1, sms wrote:
> On 10/18/2021 1:00 AM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> <snip>
> > When I bought my loaded touring bike, Trek 520, in early 1992, it was a 1991 model, it had 50-45-30 chainrings. They claimed it was half step plus granny. Ha Ha Ha. I immediately changed the 30 inner ring to a 24 tooth. It was a Shimano Deore 110/74 mm BCD chainrings. 12-28 seven speed cassette. I replaced the 28 cog with a 32 tooth. Now it had a real granny gear. The half step with 50-45 rings was never a correct half step. With half step each full step, up and down one cog, should be the same/similar percentage change. And the half steps should be half the full step. But with the five tooth difference in the chainrings, the percentage changes were wrong. I fixed that later by replacing the 50 with a 48. 48-45-24 rings with the seven speed cassette. The percentage changes were perfect then.
> >
> > Eventually I replaced the Trek 520 frame with a Redline touring frame. Better fitting frame. Trek 520 was too small for me. But I did not know enough when I bought it. On the new Redline touring bike I fixed the gearing so its perfect now. 44-33-20 chainrings. Ten speed SRAM cassette 11-32. Shimano 105 STI shifters. I originally had bar end shifters. But STI is better.
> Trek called the 520 a "touring bike" but whoever designed it knew very
> little about bicycle touring. It's more than just adding three sets of
> cage bosses and bosses for a low-rider rack.
>
> But they seem to have addressed some of the earlier flaws. It's now
> 48/36/26 in front, 11-36 in back. Since Shimano discontinued their
> higher-end triple components the 520 now uses Sora. They have disc brake
> version of the 520 now as well. It also has much better racks than in
> the past.
..
Even here in Europe, Trek's designers seem to have little idea of a touring/utility bike. On the other hand, when I bought my Trek Smover 20 years or so ago, and required esoteric parts to reengineer it to me and to the advertised purpose, Trek jumped in enthusiastically and gave no sign whatsoever that they were counting the cost. I still remember the warm glow of my first ride on the reengineered version, and the revelation of the silken VP191 pedals they sent me as a gift.

Andre Jute
May the cycling gods bless Trek.
http://coolmainpress.com/BICYCLINGsmover.html

On 10/19/2021 1:16 AM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Monday, October 18, 2021 at 7:13:07 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
>> On Monday, October 18, 2021 at 2:07:18 PM UTC-7, sms wrote:
>>> On 10/18/2021 1:34 PM, jbeattie wrote:
>>>
>>> <snip>
>>>> The Expedition was produced from '83-85, which was after the height of the bicycle touring craze, which was in 1981 -- some time around September 21st -- maybe the 22nd. That was the absolute peak, and it was all downhill from there. Touring was pretty niche in the '70s, and lots of people built from scratch -- a lot on Bob Jackson and other British frames. https://www.flickr.com/photos/zbillster/albums/72157606789001880/ And a lot of people just rode 10 speeds, even into the late '70s and early '80s when OTC touring bikes became more common. They would just get a bike and take off.
>>> Mine is an '84. I bought it when the 85s were coming out and the dealers
>>> had clearance sales on the 84s. I think I paid $499 or $399, I can't
>>> remember. Got it at Talbot's in San Mateo because Shaw's was more
>>> expensive. I remember buying the Blackburn Low Rider front rack and the
>>> fork braze-ons didn't match the racks. I ran into someone from either
>>> Blackburn or Specialized at some event and mentioned it to them and they
>>> mailed me pair of adapters (fit? we'll make it fit!).
>>>> I rode from SJ up to Canada in '76 and encountered some of the first Bikecentennial riders, many of whom were on OTC 10 speeds. You would listen to them complaining about saddle sores and the dissolution of their marriages in the campground bathrooms. They just went to the local bike shop with their wives/girlfriends, bought bikes/bags/racks and took off -- which was kind of mind-boggling to me. I did the coast-to-coast thing in '81 and ran into two frat brothers -- great guys who we rode with for a week or more -- and they just went and bought some Peugeot sport bikes and bolted on racks. Low gear was like 42/24.
>>> They just had it reversed from what it should have been.
>>> They had a unique climbing style -- hammer out of the saddle as long
>>> as they could and then rest, hammer, rest, repeat. We first
>>> encountered them riding over McKenzie Pass in a rainstorm (with snow at
>>> the top), and they had bread bags on their feet and were wearing
>>> trash-can liner ponchos. It's amazing what works for some people. I
>>> had an uber-expensive first generation Goretex Anorak from a now,
>>> long-defunct company -- Yakwear/Yakworks.
>>> https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Vchyn0UuRUo/Tcoyooh8qPI/AAAAAAAALnw/F2s5_60yUPk/s1600/rivendellandyakworks038.jpg
>>> I also had a first generation Early Winters Goretex single-wall
>>> tent. Both leaked like sieves.
>>> I had a Yak Works sleeping bag at some point. It was rather unique as it
>>> was the only Thinsulate sleeping bag. The other synthetic bags were
>>> Polarguard or some other synthetic and were much larger, see
>>> <https://books.google.com/books?id=QFYKqzNP8FwC&pg=PA75&lpg=PA75>. I
>>> think that I still have it.
>>>
>>> Remember Frostline kits? <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frostline_Kits>.
>> I still have a Frostline jacket sewn by my amazing seamstress college girlfriend -- who rode across the US with me. I also have my '74/5 Western Mountaineering bag, which was a somewhat unique, tight fitting design to reduce weight.
>>
>> Speaking of Terry Shaw, I first met him at a shop owned by a guy named Steve Bleiler who occupied the space that became Western Mountaineering. Bleiler went bankrupt . . . with my PX10 that I was selling on consignment and my deposit for a Proteus frame. I got the bike back but not the deposit. At about the same time, Terry opened his own shop on E. Williams in the tiny space that had previously been occupied by Bleiler before he had gone to the future Western Mountaineering space. It was like hermit crabs changing shells -- except guys with beards running boutique bike shops. Unbelievably that space is still a bike shop, but it was only half the space originally occupied by Terry. https://tinyurl.com/pbr4xwhd
>>
>> Terry sold Miyata 1000s and Holdsworth, which I think made a touring frame, among others.
>
> Yes Holdsworth made a loaded touring frame/fork. Friend of mine has one. Still using it for touring.
>
>
>
>
>
> I don't know if he had Bob Jackson. I remember seeing my first Jim Merz frame there -- special ordered from exotic and far-away Ory-gun.. Jim later became one of the builders in residence at Specialized. https://www.facebook.com/merzbicycles Terry would give me crap because I bought frames made by my friend Dale Saso. Terry would faintly bad-mouth Dale, probably because he sold his frames too cheap -- until he became locally famous, and then you had to wait forever for a frame, unless you were me. I think I bought his fourth or fifth frame -- I can't remember, but it was an act of faith that paid off, and I basically lived at his shop. I bought a ton of stuff from Terry, too -- particularly when he was at the E. Williams street location. He had twice a week shop rides that were flat-out races populated by state champs, many of the guys from Specialized and some of the guys who rode with Jobst and show up in his pictures. Terry would also post daily telex results from the TdF, wh
ich was basically the only place I could go to get the standings. You talk about peak times -- that was it, the early mid-70s. Specialized was taking off, Blackburn too, and PAB and all sorts of local builders like Ritchey, Caylor, Lyons, Saso and all the Eisentraut protegees and whoever Spence Wolf was promoting at Cupertino Bikes. In far away Wisconsin, Trek was starting. You could still buy boxes of spokes cheap. It was a perfect world.
>>
>> -- Jay Beattie.

Yes, Holdsworth Mistral:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/mistral.html

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Tuesday, October 19, 2021 at 6:33:15 AM UTC+1, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Mon, 18 Oct 2021 07:44:45 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute
> <fiul...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >I've probably published 20 million words in my life, including 60 or 70 full-length books, so I'm a connoisseur of keyboards,
> Ok. I'll assume you know how to operate a keyboard.
> >They recently signed a consent order with and paid a fine in
> >some tens of millions of euro to the EU for programming
> >OS updates deliberately to slow down older devices to
> >force people hanging on to them to buy new ones.
> Not exactly. They were trying to solve a problem. As their battery
> aged, its capacity, and therefore the phone's runtime, would decrease.
> In order to extend the useful life of the phone, they slowed down the
> clock rate, which reduced power consumption, and therefore extended
> the runtime. For example, if a new phone ran for 8 hrs before giving
> up, a 5 year old phone would also run of 8 hrs, but would run slower.
> The problem was that they didn't inform the buyer of the intentional
> slowdown and compounded it by designing the phone so that the battery
> was too small and very difficult to replace.
> >That infuriates me as I hate being an unpaid beta-tester for
> >unproven gear and software
> You're being generous. I suspect that the reason you're angry is that
> you trusted Apple to do the right thing and instead they delivered an
> inferior product. You also paid a premium for the phone, which comes
> with the expectation of being better than the competition. In other
> words, you probably felt cheated. Yet, you will probably continue to
> believe that Apple is your friend, that Apple can do no wrong, and
> that paying extra for Apple quality is a worthwhile investment. Guess
> which company invented the now common 5 year product life, and the
> "vintage" and "obsolete" designations?
> <https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201624>

Apple put a good deal of caviar and champagne on my table for several decades. But my loyalty is fast running out. But I don't get angry, I get even.

> >indeed, people pay Apple and the software vendors for the privilege
> >of being unpaid beta testers. I pay for gear that works and I make
> >no allowances. I'm on ai iPhone SE (2016) I bought NOS last year
> >when I searched high and low for an NOS 4S, and have no idea what
> >I will do when the SE becomes obsolete because everything else is
> >so grotesquely large and clumsy. (1)
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPhone_SE_(1st_generation)>
> If Apple continues to support the SE (1st gen) for 5 years after it
> was last produced, which was about 3 years ago, you have another 2
> years of support left.
> >However, the A1314 gave solid service but I don't think I'll
> >replace it with the rather pricey rebuilt or promised-good A1314
> >offered in the link you so graciously supplied.
> Since I used to run a repair business, most of what I sold were
> repairs of used equipment. Due to the lack of availability of Apple
> parts, there was a rather lucrative market for refurbished equipment
> and parts. However, I'm now officially retired and therefore don't
> care as much.
>
> I guess everyone has their favorite keyboard. For me, it's the Dell
> SK-8115, SK-8135 and variations:
> <https://www.google.com/search?q=dell+sk-8135&tbm=isch>
> There's nothing superior or unique about this keyboard. The only
> major defect is the screened white letters eventually rub off. I
> think I have about 10 fairly new keyboards and a rather large bag of
> salvaged keycaps.

Too Men in Black for me. One reason I stayed with Apple so long is that I'm an artist and I can't work with ugly or rough implements because they distract and depress me. Apple's gear and software is exquisitely styled to be pleasing to the hand and the eye.
> Good luck with reviving the function and number keys. I have a
> feeling that it's not a failure but rather a problem with some obscure
> setting.

That's exactly why I won't replace it like for like. I've failed, despite serious effort -- my time is expensive -- and generous help from knowledgeable people to discover the "obscure setting" that causes the problem, Apple clearly doesn't know either, and the wannabe experts in the "community" are useless, so the minute another Apple keyboard walks through my door, it could happen again, to a brand-new keyboard for what is an obscene price (over five times what the very similar Omoton keyboard costs). Time to move on.
> --
> Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
> PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
> Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
> Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Andre Jute
Blessings upon your house.

On Tuesday, October 19, 2021 at 7:51:31 AM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> On 10/19/2021 1:16 AM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > On Monday, October 18, 2021 at 7:13:07 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
> >> On Monday, October 18, 2021 at 2:07:18 PM UTC-7, sms wrote:
> >>> On 10/18/2021 1:34 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> >>>
> >>> <snip>
> >>>> The Expedition was produced from '83-85, which was after the height of the bicycle touring craze, which was in 1981 -- some time around September 21st -- maybe the 22nd. That was the absolute peak, and it was all downhill from there. Touring was pretty niche in the '70s, and lots of people built from scratch -- a lot on Bob Jackson and other British frames. https://www.flickr.com/photos/zbillster/albums/72157606789001880/ And a lot of people just rode 10 speeds, even into the late '70s and early '80s when OTC touring bikes became more common. They would just get a bike and take off.
> >>> Mine is an '84. I bought it when the 85s were coming out and the dealers
> >>> had clearance sales on the 84s. I think I paid $499 or $399, I can't
> >>> remember. Got it at Talbot's in San Mateo because Shaw's was more
> >>> expensive. I remember buying the Blackburn Low Rider front rack and the
> >>> fork braze-ons didn't match the racks. I ran into someone from either
> >>> Blackburn or Specialized at some event and mentioned it to them and they
> >>> mailed me pair of adapters (fit? we'll make it fit!).
> >>>> I rode from SJ up to Canada in '76 and encountered some of the first Bikecentennial riders, many of whom were on OTC 10 speeds. You would listen to them complaining about saddle sores and the dissolution of their marriages in the campground bathrooms. They just went to the local bike shop with their wives/girlfriends, bought bikes/bags/racks and took off -- which was kind of mind-boggling to me. I did the coast-to-coast thing in '81 and ran into two frat brothers -- great guys who we rode with for a week or more -- and they just went and bought some Peugeot sport bikes and bolted on racks. Low gear was like 42/24.
> >>> They just had it reversed from what it should have been.
> >>> They had a unique climbing style -- hammer out of the saddle as long
> >>> as they could and then rest, hammer, rest, repeat. We first
> >>> encountered them riding over McKenzie Pass in a rainstorm (with snow at
> >>> the top), and they had bread bags on their feet and were wearing
> >>> trash-can liner ponchos. It's amazing what works for some people. I
> >>> had an uber-expensive first generation Goretex Anorak from a now,
> >>> long-defunct company -- Yakwear/Yakworks.
> >>> https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Vchyn0UuRUo/Tcoyooh8qPI/AAAAAAAALnw/F2s5_60yUPk/s1600/rivendellandyakworks038.jpg
> >>> I also had a first generation Early Winters Goretex single-wall
> >>> tent. Both leaked like sieves.
> >>> I had a Yak Works sleeping bag at some point. It was rather unique as it
> >>> was the only Thinsulate sleeping bag. The other synthetic bags were
> >>> Polarguard or some other synthetic and were much larger, see
> >>> <https://books.google.com/books?id=QFYKqzNP8FwC&pg=PA75&lpg=PA75>. I
> >>> think that I still have it.
> >>>
> >>> Remember Frostline kits? <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frostline_Kits>.
> >> I still have a Frostline jacket sewn by my amazing seamstress college girlfriend -- who rode across the US with me. I also have my '74/5 Western Mountaineering bag, which was a somewhat unique, tight fitting design to reduce weight.
> >>
> >> Speaking of Terry Shaw, I first met him at a shop owned by a guy named Steve Bleiler who occupied the space that became Western Mountaineering. Bleiler went bankrupt . . . with my PX10 that I was selling on consignment and my deposit for a Proteus frame. I got the bike back but not the deposit. At about the same time, Terry opened his own shop on E. Williams in the tiny space that had previously been occupied by Bleiler before he had gone to the future Western Mountaineering space. It was like hermit crabs changing shells -- except guys with beards running boutique bike shops. Unbelievably that space is still a bike shop, but it was only half the space originally occupied by Terry. https://tinyurl.com/pbr4xwhd
> >>
> >> Terry sold Miyata 1000s and Holdsworth, which I think made a touring frame, among others.
> >
> > Yes Holdsworth made a loaded touring frame/fork. Friend of mine has one.. Still using it for touring.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I don't know if he had Bob Jackson. I remember seeing my first Jim Merz frame there -- special ordered from exotic and far-away Ory-gun.. Jim later became one of the builders in residence at Specialized. https://www.facebook.com/merzbicycles Terry would give me crap because I bought frames made by my friend Dale Saso. Terry would faintly bad-mouth Dale, probably because he sold his frames too cheap -- until he became locally famous, and then you had to wait forever for a frame, unless you were me. I think I bought his fourth or fifth frame -- I can't remember, but it was an act of faith that paid off, and I basically lived at his shop. I bought a ton of stuff from Terry, too -- particularly when he was at the E. Williams street location.. He had twice a week shop rides that were flat-out races populated by state champs, many of the guys from Specialized and some of the guys who rode with Jobst and show up in his pictures. Terry would also post daily telex results from the TdF, wh
> ich was basically the only place I could go to get the standings. You talk about peak times -- that was it, the early mid-70s. Specialized was taking off, Blackburn too, and PAB and all sorts of local builders like Ritchey, Caylor, Lyons, Saso and all the Eisentraut protegees and whoever Spence Wolf was promoting at Cupertino Bikes. In far away Wisconsin, Trek was starting. You could still buy boxes of spokes cheap. It was a perfect world.
> >>
> >> -- Jay Beattie.
> Yes, Holdsworth Mistral:
> http://www.yellowjersey.org/mistral.html
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Hey that Holdsworth is even the same color as my friend's bike. That brownish tannish color.

Andrew, I enjoyed your pictures of the re-paint on the Holdsworth Mistral, but could I please ask you a dumb question: when you had what looked like foil wrapped all around the tubes, I guess you were masking areas that you didn't want to paint at the time(?), but I couldn't figure out what you WERE trying to paint. It appeared that you had the entire frame masked. Am I crazy? Always curious about the correct way to paint things! Your bike knowledge never ceases to amaze me. I'm not worthy! Or should I say, I'm not Holdsworthy?

On 10/21/2021 5:40 AM, William Crowell wrote:
> Andrew, I enjoyed your pictures of the re-paint on the Holdsworth Mistral, but could I please ask you a dumb question: when you had what looked like foil wrapped all around the tubes, I guess you were masking areas that you didn't want to paint at the time(?), but I couldn't figure out what you WERE trying to paint. It appeared that you had the entire frame masked. Am I crazy? Always curious about the correct way to paint things! Your bike knowledge never ceases to amaze me. I'm not worthy! Or should I say, I'm not Holdsworthy?
>

The scuffy original Taupe paint was completely removed:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/hm18h.jpg

(that was back in the good old days of 2018 before the EPA
waged jihad on dimythylene chloride. That 30 minute job now
takes many hours.)

Mistral original spec was for Weinmann 750 centerpulls which
have declined in popularity so, since the paint was off
anyway, I added cantilevers before respray.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

"...before the EPA waged jihad on dimythylene chloride. That 30 minute job now takes many hours."

I do admit to being biased on the issue because I've spent a lot of time and money building a fairly big shop air system for sandblasting, so... is there some reason why you don't like to sandblast bike frames?

On Thursday, October 21, 2021 at 8:06:21 AM UTC-7, William Crowell wrote:
> "...before the EPA waged jihad on dimythylene chloride. That 30 minute job now takes many hours."
>
> I do admit to being biased on the issue because I've spent a lot of time and money building a fairly big shop air system for sandblasting, so... is there some reason why you don't like to sandblast bike frames?

Sandblasting a frame merely to remove the paint is not a particularly good way since it can cut out the braze if the lugs were not fit and brazed properly. They could last forever unless sandblasting cut out what is supposed to be an almost microscopic layer of braze.

Paint remover effects only the paint.

On Thursday, October 21, 2021 at 8:18:08 AM UTC-7, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, October 21, 2021 at 8:06:21 AM UTC-7, William Crowell wrote:
> > "...before the EPA waged jihad on dimythylene chloride. That 30 minute job now takes many hours."
> >
> > I do admit to being biased on the issue because I've spent a lot of time and money building a fairly big shop air system for sandblasting, so... is there some reason why you don't like to sandblast bike frames?
> Sandblasting a frame merely to remove the paint is not a particularly good way since it can cut out the braze if the lugs were not fit and brazed properly. They could last forever unless sandblasting cut out what is supposed to be an almost microscopic layer of braze.
>
> Paint remover effects only the paint.

Wet-painted bike frames are sandblasted all the time. There is no problem with sandblasting a wet-painted bicycle frame, and if there were some issue with the durability of the metal (unlikely with a rideable frame), you could blast with beads or walnut shells. The old wet paints were not that hard to remove, and blasting a frame does not remove the brass -- as you can tell from a frame that has been blasted. You can still see the excess brass from the joints and braze-ons. https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikeforums.net-vbulletin/2000x1493/image_52386574fc9bbdd2328b064d8ff577909cf61f02.jpg

Removing a powder coat is a different matter, and you would have to blast it hard -- maybe hard enough to damage thin-walled steel, but I don't know for sure. I would chemically strip a powder coat job.

-- Jay Beattie.

On Thursday, October 21, 2021 at 8:35:13 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
> On Thursday, October 21, 2021 at 8:18:08 AM UTC-7, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Thursday, October 21, 2021 at 8:06:21 AM UTC-7, William Crowell wrote:
> > > "...before the EPA waged jihad on dimythylene chloride. That 30 minute job now takes many hours."
> > >
> > > I do admit to being biased on the issue because I've spent a lot of time and money building a fairly big shop air system for sandblasting, so... is there some reason why you don't like to sandblast bike frames?
> > Sandblasting a frame merely to remove the paint is not a particularly good way since it can cut out the braze if the lugs were not fit and brazed properly. They could last forever unless sandblasting cut out what is supposed to be an almost microscopic layer of braze.
> >
> > Paint remover effects only the paint.
> Wet-painted bike frames are sandblasted all the time. There is no problem with sandblasting a wet-painted bicycle frame, and if there were some issue with the durability of the metal (unlikely with a rideable frame), you could blast with beads or walnut shells. The old wet paints were not that hard to remove, and blasting a frame does not remove the brass -- as you can tell from a frame that has been blasted. You can still see the excess brass from the joints and braze-ons. https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikeforums.net-vbulletin/2000x1493/image_52386574fc9bbdd2328b064d8ff577909cf61f02.jpg
>
> Removing a powder coat is a different matter, and you would have to blast it hard -- maybe hard enough to damage thin-walled steel, but I don't know for sure. I would chemically strip a powder coat job.

Jay, I don't particularly like your term "wet painted" as if there are some sorts of dry paints. But in any case, just look at the chain stay nearest the photographer. You can see that it wasn't nearly as carefully brazed as the other joints on that bike. You yourself have talked about failures of steel frames and many of those are from improperly brazed joints. These were often found on mass produced cheap bikes.