One of the problems using a road bike on a gravel trail is that the tire clearance is pretty small. Until recently road bikes believed that 23 mm tires should be the standard for "large" tires.

New gravel bikes made out of carbon fiber are rather silly. On gravel trails if you are making any speed at all the tires through up a lot of gravel that chips the front of the downtube.

But these people tend to think of bicycles as expendables anyway.

Steel and titanium bikes have little to no damage from this except possibly to the paint and few titanium bikes are painted.

I have only, in my memory, ridden the 20 miles of gravel to the Dumbarton Bridge but I know that there has to be another 20 miles to the ghost town of Alviso and past. So that will give me a project for the next couple of years.

Tom Kunich <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
> One of the problems using a road bike on a gravel trail is that the tire
> clearance is pretty small. Until recently road bikes believed that 23 mm
> tires should be the standard for "large" tires.
>
> New gravel bikes made out of carbon fiber are rather silly. On gravel
> trails if you are making any speed at all the tires through up a lot of
> gravel that chips the front of the downtube.
>
> But these people tend to think of bicycles as expendables anyway.
>
> Steel and titanium bikes have little to no damage from this except
> possibly to the paint and few titanium bikes are painted.
>
While I do think that metal makes more sense for bikes that are going to be
banged about, possibly crashed a few times and so on.

In fairness bar some scratches very little else on either the gravel or
MTB.

> I have only, in my memory, ridden the 20 miles of gravel to the Dumbarton
> Bridge but I know that there has to be another 20 miles to the ghost town
> of Alviso and past. So that will give me a project for the next couple of years.
>
Roger Merriman.

On 10/21/2021 2:53 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:

<snip>

> While I do think that metal makes more sense for bikes that are going to be
> banged about, possibly crashed a few times and so on.

I was a little surprised when Jay said that he had a carbon-fiber gravel
bike. I guess Specialized and other companies have a vested interest in
selling the most expensive products possible, but until then I just
naively believed that gravel bikes were one area where no one in their
right mind would use carbon-fiber. I was wrong.

Last month I thought I rented a gravel bike in Vermont, but it turns out
that it was actually an "urban" bike. 27.5" x 47mm tires, CroMo frame,
disc brakes, 48/38/28 front, 11-34 rear, even fenders. I went looking to
buy the same bike but of course it's out of stock everywhere.

On Thursday, October 21, 2021 at 3:46:06 PM UTC-7, sms wrote:
> On 10/21/2021 2:53 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>
> <snip>
> > While I do think that metal makes more sense for bikes that are going to be
> > banged about, possibly crashed a few times and so on.
> I was a little surprised when Jay said that he had a carbon-fiber gravel
> bike. I guess Specialized and other companies have a vested interest in
> selling the most expensive products possible, but until then I just
> naively believed that gravel bikes were one area where no one in their
> right mind would use carbon-fiber. I was wrong.

Dude, I have a Norco CF gravel bike -- that I got on sale at Western Bikeworks for $1600 all 105. Its a great bike. I love it. https://www.sefiles.net/images/library/large/norco-search-c-105-239581-1.jpg That has been my go-to non-powered recovery bike, and it is far more fun than my aluminum CX commuter: https://www.cxmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/2017-cannondale-caadx-cyclocross-apex-img_4788-cxmagazine-ay-web_1-750x504.jpg

I got my CAADX commuter as a warranty replacement, and I built it 2X, so it is not like the OTC bike. I dislike the 71 degree HT and 50mm offset "out front" forks. The Norco feels like a road bike with a soft tail. It has seen plenty of rocks and gravel.

Specialized has the Crux and the Diverge, and they just released -- so I can talk about it now -- a super-light Crux. The best drop bike bar ever! https://www.bicycling.com/bikes-gear/a37894585/specialized-crux-gravel-review/ CF off-road bikes are getting to be as light as race frame from five years ago.

There are many CF gravel bikes -- including the one my buddy just purchased pro deal from Gerard Vroomen, the Open Up. https://opencycle.com/UP Actually, my friend sits on a board with a guy who is a friend of Gerard's and swung the deal. The same friend also just bought a Moots. He has a lot of disposable income.

>
> Last month I thought I rented a gravel bike in Vermont, but it turns out
> that it was actually an "urban" bike. 27.5" x 47mm tires, CroMo frame,
> disc brakes, 48/38/28 front, 11-34 rear, even fenders. I went looking to
> buy the same bike but of course it's out of stock everywhere.

If they're out of stock, then you should buy a Moots with Shimano 12 and Enve wheels. That's what you do when you can't find what you want in a store.

I just got a text from my son. He is being given an S-Works mountain bike frame of some sort as a gift from upper management. Somebody knew he was looking for a frame. Life is good. I keep telling him not to become a bicycle cat-lady because his apartment isn't big enough.

-- Jay Beattie.

sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
> On 10/21/2021 2:53 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> While I do think that metal makes more sense for bikes that are going to be
>> banged about, possibly crashed a few times and so on.
>
> I was a little surprised when Jay said that he had a carbon-fiber gravel
> bike. I guess Specialized and other companies have a vested interest in
> selling the most expensive products possible, but until then I just
> naively believed that gravel bikes were one area where no one in their
> right mind would use carbon-fiber. I was wrong.
>
> Last month I thought I rented a gravel bike in Vermont, but it turns out
> that it was actually an "urban" bike. 27.5" x 47mm tires, CroMo frame,
> disc brakes, 48/38/28 front, 11-34 rear, even fenders. I went looking to
> buy the same bike but of course it's out of stock everywhere.
>
>
>
Been MTB even DH rigs with carbon for decades so gravel was always going to
have carbon and for some use cases probably a good fit.

Roger Merriman

On Friday, October 22, 2021 at 10:34:54 AM UTC+2, Roger Merriman wrote:
> sms <scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:
> > On 10/21/2021 2:53 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> >> While I do think that metal makes more sense for bikes that are going to be
> >> banged about, possibly crashed a few times and so on.
> >
> > I was a little surprised when Jay said that he had a carbon-fiber gravel
> > bike. I guess Specialized and other companies have a vested interest in
> > selling the most expensive products possible, but until then I just
> > naively believed that gravel bikes were one area where no one in their
> > right mind would use carbon-fiber. I was wrong.
> >
> > Last month I thought I rented a gravel bike in Vermont, but it turns out
> > that it was actually an "urban" bike. 27.5" x 47mm tires, CroMo frame,
> > disc brakes, 48/38/28 front, 11-34 rear, even fenders. I went looking to
> > buy the same bike but of course it's out of stock everywhere.
> >
> >
> >
> Been MTB even DH rigs with carbon for decades so gravel was always going to
> have carbon and for some use cases probably a good fit.
>
> Roger Merriman

If I had the weight budget of a decent steel frameset to spend I rather do that on a CF frame. You get a much stronger frame.

Lou

Lou Holtman <lou.holtman@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Friday, October 22, 2021 at 10:34:54 AM UTC+2, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> sms <scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:
>>> On 10/21/2021 2:53 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>
>>> <snip>
>>>
>>>> While I do think that metal makes more sense for bikes that are going to be
>>>> banged about, possibly crashed a few times and so on.
>>>
>>> I was a little surprised when Jay said that he had a carbon-fiber gravel
>>> bike. I guess Specialized and other companies have a vested interest in
>>> selling the most expensive products possible, but until then I just
>>> naively believed that gravel bikes were one area where no one in their
>>> right mind would use carbon-fiber. I was wrong.
>>>
>>> Last month I thought I rented a gravel bike in Vermont, but it turns out
>>> that it was actually an "urban" bike. 27.5" x 47mm tires, CroMo frame,
>>> disc brakes, 48/38/28 front, 11-34 rear, even fenders. I went looking to
>>> buy the same bike but of course it's out of stock everywhere.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> Been MTB even DH rigs with carbon for decades so gravel was always going to
>> have carbon and for some use cases probably a good fit.
>>
>> Roger Merriman
>
> If I had the weight budget of a decent steel frameset to spend I rather
> do that on a CF frame. You get a much stronger frame.
>
> Lou
>
I’m not disagreeing that I think carbon in MTB/CX/Gravel etc seems foolish
for a bike that is likely to be crashed assuming it’s used, but I can see
for the racers they might want every weight etc saving and tuned stiffness
and so on.

Roger Merriman.

On Friday, October 22, 2021 at 1:34:54 AM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote:
> sms <scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:
> > On 10/21/2021 2:53 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> >> While I do think that metal makes more sense for bikes that are going to be
> >> banged about, possibly crashed a few times and so on.
> >
> > I was a little surprised when Jay said that he had a carbon-fiber gravel
> > bike. I guess Specialized and other companies have a vested interest in
> > selling the most expensive products possible, but until then I just
> > naively believed that gravel bikes were one area where no one in their
> > right mind would use carbon-fiber. I was wrong.
> >
> > Last month I thought I rented a gravel bike in Vermont, but it turns out
> > that it was actually an "urban" bike. 27.5" x 47mm tires, CroMo frame,
> > disc brakes, 48/38/28 front, 11-34 rear, even fenders. I went looking to
> > buy the same bike but of course it's out of stock everywhere.
> >
> >
> >
> Been MTB even DH rigs with carbon for decades so gravel was always going to
> have carbon and for some use cases probably a good fit.

Over the counter MTB's and especially downhill carbon fiber bikes are WAY overbuilt and actually heavy. I have aluminum bikes that not only were lighter but would drop, particularly, full suspension bikes in a heart beat. Watching MTB's climbing and even descending on anything other than the perfect MTB track makes it painfully obvious that they do not perform anything like a good CX or gravel bike. The weight of a suspension fork alone makes most MTB's pigs for climbing. The large and heavy tires as well., Now these things DO have the effect of holding the front wheel down which with CX or gravel bikes lift very easily causing you to lose control. But do NOT expect performance from these things simply because they are carbon fiber.

Tom Kunich <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Friday, October 22, 2021 at 1:34:54 AM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> sms <scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:
>>> On 10/21/2021 2:53 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>
>>> <snip>
>>>
>>>> While I do think that metal makes more sense for bikes that are going to be
>>>> banged about, possibly crashed a few times and so on.
>>>
>>> I was a little surprised when Jay said that he had a carbon-fiber gravel
>>> bike. I guess Specialized and other companies have a vested interest in
>>> selling the most expensive products possible, but until then I just
>>> naively believed that gravel bikes were one area where no one in their
>>> right mind would use carbon-fiber. I was wrong.
>>>
>>> Last month I thought I rented a gravel bike in Vermont, but it turns out
>>> that it was actually an "urban" bike. 27.5" x 47mm tires, CroMo frame,
>>> disc brakes, 48/38/28 front, 11-34 rear, even fenders. I went looking to
>>> buy the same bike but of course it's out of stock everywhere.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> Been MTB even DH rigs with carbon for decades so gravel was always going to
>> have carbon and for some use cases probably a good fit.
>
> Over the counter MTB's and especially downhill carbon fiber bikes are WAY
> overbuilt and actually heavy. I have aluminum bikes that not only were
> lighter but would drop, particularly, full suspension bikes in a heart
> beat. Watching MTB's climbing and even descending on anything other than
> the perfect MTB track makes it painfully obvious that they do not perform
> anything like a good CX or gravel bike. The weight of a suspension fork
> alone makes most MTB's pigs for climbing. The large and heavy tires as
> well., Now these things DO have the effect of holding the front wheel
> down which with CX or gravel bikes lift very easily causing you to lose
> control. But do NOT expect performance from these things simply because
> they are carbon fiber.
>
DH or even enduro are heavy as they need to survive well the technical
terrain, ie if you can keep up with a XC bike let along a gravel bike it’s
definitely not where it’s supposed to be, DH bikes generally climb via a
chairlift or similar, Enduro they will climb but slowly as they are heavy
lumps.

MTB shine on technical climbs, fire road and similar are right on the money
for Gravel bikes.

Roger Merriman

On Friday, October 22, 2021 at 9:53:19 AM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote:
> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Friday, October 22, 2021 at 1:34:54 AM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote:
> >> sms <scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:
> >>> On 10/21/2021 2:53 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> >>>
> >>> <snip>
> >>>
> >>>> While I do think that metal makes more sense for bikes that are going to be
> >>>> banged about, possibly crashed a few times and so on.
> >>>
> >>> I was a little surprised when Jay said that he had a carbon-fiber gravel
> >>> bike. I guess Specialized and other companies have a vested interest in
> >>> selling the most expensive products possible, but until then I just
> >>> naively believed that gravel bikes were one area where no one in their
> >>> right mind would use carbon-fiber. I was wrong.
> >>>
> >>> Last month I thought I rented a gravel bike in Vermont, but it turns out
> >>> that it was actually an "urban" bike. 27.5" x 47mm tires, CroMo frame,
> >>> disc brakes, 48/38/28 front, 11-34 rear, even fenders. I went looking to
> >>> buy the same bike but of course it's out of stock everywhere.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >> Been MTB even DH rigs with carbon for decades so gravel was always going to
> >> have carbon and for some use cases probably a good fit.
> >
> > Over the counter MTB's and especially downhill carbon fiber bikes are WAY
> > overbuilt and actually heavy. I have aluminum bikes that not only were
> > lighter but would drop, particularly, full suspension bikes in a heart
> > beat. Watching MTB's climbing and even descending on anything other than
> > the perfect MTB track makes it painfully obvious that they do not perform
> > anything like a good CX or gravel bike. The weight of a suspension fork
> > alone makes most MTB's pigs for climbing. The large and heavy tires as
> > well., Now these things DO have the effect of holding the front wheel
> > down which with CX or gravel bikes lift very easily causing you to lose
> > control. But do NOT expect performance from these things simply because
> > they are carbon fiber.
> >
> DH or even enduro are heavy as they need to survive well the technical
> terrain, ie if you can keep up with a XC bike let along a gravel bike it’s
> definitely not where it’s supposed to be, DH bikes generally climb via a
> chairlift or similar, Enduro they will climb but slowly as they are heavy
> lumps.
>
> MTB shine on technical climbs, fire road and similar are right on the money
> for Gravel bikes.

I think that for the most part we have a difference in definitions. Conditions in a professional downhill competition ARE NOT what normal riders ride in as well as cross country., The normal rider almost always rides fire roads or groomed trails. While these are rough enough to warrant full suspension, it isn't absolutely necessary. I did say that MTB's have a definite advantage on steep loose climbs since the weight is so far forward as compared to a gravel bike. You haven't lived until you tried to climb a 20% and have the front wheel lift and the bike turn 180 degrees. My response was to crash to the high side at 90 degree of rotation.

Tom Kunich <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Friday, October 22, 2021 at 9:53:19 AM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Friday, October 22, 2021 at 1:34:54 AM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>> sms <scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:
>>>>> On 10/21/2021 2:53 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> <snip>
>>>>>
>>>>>> While I do think that metal makes more sense for bikes that are going to be
>>>>>> banged about, possibly crashed a few times and so on.
>>>>>
>>>>> I was a little surprised when Jay said that he had a carbon-fiber gravel
>>>>> bike. I guess Specialized and other companies have a vested interest in
>>>>> selling the most expensive products possible, but until then I just
>>>>> naively believed that gravel bikes were one area where no one in their
>>>>> right mind would use carbon-fiber. I was wrong.
>>>>>
>>>>> Last month I thought I rented a gravel bike in Vermont, but it turns out
>>>>> that it was actually an "urban" bike. 27.5" x 47mm tires, CroMo frame,
>>>>> disc brakes, 48/38/28 front, 11-34 rear, even fenders. I went looking to
>>>>> buy the same bike but of course it's out of stock everywhere.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Been MTB even DH rigs with carbon for decades so gravel was always going to
>>>> have carbon and for some use cases probably a good fit.
>>>
>>> Over the counter MTB's and especially downhill carbon fiber bikes are WAY
>>> overbuilt and actually heavy. I have aluminum bikes that not only were
>>> lighter but would drop, particularly, full suspension bikes in a heart
>>> beat. Watching MTB's climbing and even descending on anything other than
>>> the perfect MTB track makes it painfully obvious that they do not perform
>>> anything like a good CX or gravel bike. The weight of a suspension fork
>>> alone makes most MTB's pigs for climbing. The large and heavy tires as
>>> well., Now these things DO have the effect of holding the front wheel
>>> down which with CX or gravel bikes lift very easily causing you to lose
>>> control. But do NOT expect performance from these things simply because
>>> they are carbon fiber.
>>>
>> DH or even enduro are heavy as they need to survive well the technical
>> terrain, ie if you can keep up with a XC bike let along a gravel bike it’s
>> definitely not where it’s supposed to be, DH bikes generally climb via a
>> chairlift or similar, Enduro they will climb but slowly as they are heavy
>> lumps.
>>
>> MTB shine on technical climbs, fire road and similar are right on the money
>> for Gravel bikes.
>
> I think that for the most part we have a difference in definitions.
> Conditions in a professional downhill competition ARE NOT what normal
> riders ride in as well as cross country., The normal rider almost always
> rides fire roads or groomed trails. While these are rough enough to
> warrant full suspension, it isn't absolutely necessary. I did say that
> MTB's have a definite advantage on steep loose climbs since the weight is
> so far forward as compared to a gravel bike. You haven't lived until you
> tried to climb a 20% and have the front wheel lift and the bike turn 180
> degrees. My response was to crash to the high side at 90 degree of rotation.
>
Fire roads really aren’t what most MTB ride, they are where it started yes.
But are total overkill on a MTB and frankly dull! Unlike with GraveL bikes
where they can be fun zipping along etc.

MTB will climb technical stuff as well it can get more grip down from tires
and suspension plus generally lower gearing.

On the whole gravel bikes the geometry is slightly more forward which if
anything would favour them, if you compare XC bikes to DH you can see the
geometry change and essentially are they designed for up or down!

I’m a old MTBer I’ve never had problems with the front wheel lifting, bar
the commute bike before I got a bar bag!

Roadies are very easy spot off road as they are rigid and well lumpen and
essentially don’t move around on the bike.

I regularly climb stuff over 20% off and on road. Like anything it’s a
skill to learn to keep the weight just so, but it’s not difficult by any
means.

Roger Merriman.