On 10/20/2021 11:08 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Wed, 20 Oct 2021 09:01:27 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
> <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Germans in this country that are still alive from before WW II are themselves saying this is exactly how Germany fell into the NAZI trap.
>
> Let's see if that works. WWII started in 1939. Someone living at
> that time would need to be at least 16 years old in order to be fairly
> politically aware. Therefore, they would need to be born no later
> than 1939 - 16 = 1923 and would therefore be 2021 - 1923 = 98 years
> old. Oddly, I haven't heard anything on the topic from anyone in that
> age bracket. As usual, you invent all your assertions.

Actually, my elderly German neighbor confirmed that the rise of the
Third Reich was similar to how the Alt-Right Trumpers tried to seize
power in the U.S. and nearly did so. Lie about the news media. Blame
immigrants for all the country's ills. Spend excessively on the
military. Promote mindless nationalism. Embrace conspiracy theories
(like Trump and the Birthers). Spread ethnic myths. Use dehumanizing
language. Ignore the precepts of your own religion.

It is not unreasonable to recognize the similarities of what led to the
third Reich in Germany and what led to Trump being elected n the U.S..
We should recognize the warning signs and not fall into the same trap
that Germany fell into. Remember, there are still a lot of Americans
that believe fake news coming from sources like OAN, Fox, the New York
Post, etc., and just as in Germany, many of them don't _really_ believe
it, they pretend to believe it because it suits their agenda.

On Wednesday, October 20, 2021 at 12:12:52 PM UTC-7, sms wrote:
> On 10/20/2021 10:38 AM, jbeattie wrote:
> > On Wednesday, October 20, 2021 at 10:20:15 AM UTC-7, sms wrote:
> >> On 10/20/2021 9:20 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> >>> On 10/20/2021 11:11 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>> On 10/20/2021 8:50 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> At the small end of sizing, custom is still sometimes
> >>>>> necessary:
> >>>>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/wfd650t2.jpg
> >>>>
> >>>> What's the wheel size on that bike?
> >>>>
> >>>> My kid (all grown up) still rides her Terry bike with the
> >>>> small front wheel - some version of 24", IIRC. There seem to
> >>>> be very few choices in tires.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>> 571mm (650C) which allows a much shorter top tube
> >> Yeah, with 650C it would seem that small, mass production, bikes would
> >> be more practical. I think that it's just that the market for such small
> >> frames (38cm to 44cm) is so small that few companies want to bother with
> >> it so custom becomes necessary. A bike shop wouldn't want to stock such
> >> a slow selling item so it would be a special order.
> >>
> >> The original post was not about super-small or super-large bikes. It was
> >> that older riders may not want to use a bunch of spacers on the steer
> >> tube, though the tubes are often cut so short that this isn't even
> >> possible, you need something like the Delta stem extender to raise the
> >> bars sufficiently high. Of course back in the days of quill stems things
> >> were less difficult since there was usually sufficient height
> >> adjustment, and if not you could put in a longer quill stem.
> >>
> >> Sheldon had the right idea...
> >> <https://www.sheldonbrown.com/org/thorn-index.html>.
> >
> > Speaking as an older rider who is also tall, anything I want, I can get OTC -- with minor modifications, maybe. I actually lowered the stem on my Synapse by rearranging the spacers, which took me all of two minutes. An older rider who is stacking spacers perilously high on an S-Works Tarmac bought the wrong bike.
> >
> > And who adjusted quill stems after the initial installation -- which was probably why the constantly got stuck.
> I was just putting bikes away for storage two days ago. To save space I
> removed the pedals and loosened the stems so I could turn the
> handlebars. All four of the bikes had quill stems. None was stuck. One
> of the bikes probably hadn't had the stem loosened in 15 years and it
> was no problem. If anything the problem with quill stems was that they
> could get loose if not properly tightened and that the headset nuts
> could get loose and properly tightening those nuts required those large
> headset wrenches. There were some headset nuts with lock screws, a good
> idea that didn't catch on.
>
> Glad to see a lot of new bicycles going back to quill stems.

They are? What bikes? I know the Rene Herse has the new-old permanently brazed steel quill. Are they also going back to 1" steerers? If so, maybe all my Cinelli stems are now worth a mint -- except the 1R, which was a POS.. I had a 1A on my touring bike, and I remember trying to get that moving so I could turn the bars to box the bike for the flight home. It took me hours but it finally broke free, and it was installed only months earlier. I guess if you don't sweat, its not a problem. I don't look forward to trying to get my last in-service Cinelli stem out of my track bike. I don't think I've moved that thing in 20 years.

-- Jay Beattie.

On Wed, 20 Oct 2021 08:47:00 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
<funkmasterxx@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, October 20, 2021 at 10:05:52 AM UTC-4, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Tuesday, October 19, 2021 at 4:07:12 PM UTC-7, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
>> > On Tue, 19 Oct 2021 12:56:28 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
>> > <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > > Ralph, what resources does a bicycle use?
>> > "How much energy does it take (on average) to produce 1 kilogram of
>> > the following materials?"
>> > <https://www.lowtechmagazine.com/what-is-the-embodied-energy-of-materials.html>
>> > Note the rather large amount of electricity needed to make 1kg of
>> > titanium.
>> >
>> > "What is the greenest type of bike frame?"
>> > <https://grist.org/living/what-is-the-greenest-type-of-bike-frame/>
>> >
>> > From the standpoint of best long term investment and minimum resource
>> > depletion, a used or reconditioned bicycle of any type would probably
>> > be best. From the standpoint of corporate enrichment, a bicycle that
>> > lasts just long enough to win a race, and then falls apart, is
>> > probably today's optimum retail bicycle. For a new bicycle, wood has
>> > the smallest environmental impact, but probably a very high labor
>> > content. For the best sustainability, it's better to repair than to
>> > replace.
>> > --
>> > Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
>> > PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
>> > Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
>> > Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
>> Jeff. you like all of your good little NAZI pals will say anything won't you? Covid-19 despite the fact that there isn't any such thing. Or at least no pandemic disease killing people. Climate change despite the fact that there is no unusual climate change. You're tell me about how much electricity it takes to manufacture a titanium bicycle despite the fact that is has virtually an unlimited lifespan. You are one of the good little NAZI's willing to perpetrate any lie and any time. And you think that you aren't going to become a target of your own hatred.
>
>Tommy going full Godwin on display

Well taking Tommy's frequent posts about all the illegal immigrants
and the National Socialists frequent allusion to the Master, i.e.
Caucasian, Race it seem obvious that Tommy is a firm believer in at
least some of Adolph's theories.

Although it must be said that Tommy coming from a slovac background
probably wouldn't have qualified as a member of the Master Race (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Wed, 20 Oct 2021 11:08:08 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Wed, 20 Oct 2021 09:01:27 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
><cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Germans in this country that are still alive from before WW II are themselves saying this is exactly how Germany fell into the NAZI trap.
>
>Let's see if that works. WWII started in 1939. Someone living at
>that time would need to be at least 16 years old in order to be fairly
>politically aware. Therefore, they would need to be born no later
>than 1939 - 16 = 1923 and would therefore be 2021 - 1923 = 98 years
>old. Oddly, I haven't heard anything on the topic from anyone in that
>age bracket. As usual, you invent all your assertions.

Mark Twain (Samuel Clemens) wrote that
"Anybody can tell lies: there is no merit in a mere lie, it must
possess art, it must exhibit a splendid & plausible & convincing
probability; that is to say, it must be powerfully calculated to
deceive."

And Tommy's lies just don't make the grade. They don't possess art,
they don't exhibit plausibility and they aren't convincing.

Quite the opposite, in fact. More in the nature of dog turds on the
sidewalk. No one pays any attention to then except to step around
them.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Wed, 20 Oct 2021 21:18:41 +0200, Sepp Ruf <inqbel@Safe-mail.net>
wrote:

>Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> Tom Kunich wrote:
>
>>> Germans in this country that are still alive from before WW II are
>>> themselves saying this is exactly how Germany fell into the NAZI
>>> trap.
>
>There certainly are parallels. Got a link, Tom?
>
>> Let's see if that works. WWII started in 1939. Someone living at
>> that time would need to be at least 16 years old in order to be
>> fairly politically aware. Therefore, they would need to be born no
>> later than 1939 - 16 = 1923 and would therefore be 2021 - 1923 = 98
>> years old. Oddly, I haven't heard anything on the topic from anyone
>> in that age bracket. As usual, you invent all your assertions.
>
>In a hostile environment, age 10 is plenty to become socially aware, the
>political interpretation can follow later. 1939 would be a bit late to
>witness the beginnings, though.

I want to produce the best case (youngest age today) that might have
been a witness to events prior to WWII. If I wanted to be realistic,
I think the last year that any party in Germany had a chance to end
the madness was about 1933. For age, I used myself as an example. I
didn't care much about politics until college, so I think 16 would be
about right. Between age 10 and 16, my interests were girls,
bicycles, ham radio and early computers. Had I been the same age in
1933-1939 Germany, I probably would have been a member of the
Hitlerjugend and had my political views delivered to me by the party.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler_Youth>

Recalculating, in order to be 16 in 1933, a witness would need to have
been born in 1933 - 16 = 1917 and would therefore be 2021 - 1917 = 104
years old today. I guess Tom thinks it's safe to shove words into the
mouths of those who are safely dead and buried.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Wed, 20 Oct 2021 21:29:13 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Wed, 20 Oct 2021 21:18:41 +0200, Sepp Ruf <inqbel@Safe-mail.net>
>wrote:
>
>>Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>> Tom Kunich wrote:
>>
>>>> Germans in this country that are still alive from before WW II are
>>>> themselves saying this is exactly how Germany fell into the NAZI
>>>> trap.
>>
>>There certainly are parallels. Got a link, Tom?
>>
>>> Let's see if that works. WWII started in 1939. Someone living at
>>> that time would need to be at least 16 years old in order to be
>>> fairly politically aware. Therefore, they would need to be born no
>>> later than 1939 - 16 = 1923 and would therefore be 2021 - 1923 = 98
>>> years old. Oddly, I haven't heard anything on the topic from anyone
>>> in that age bracket. As usual, you invent all your assertions.
>>
>>In a hostile environment, age 10 is plenty to become socially aware, the
>>political interpretation can follow later. 1939 would be a bit late to
>>witness the beginnings, though.
>
>I want to produce the best case (youngest age today) that might have
>been a witness to events prior to WWII. If I wanted to be realistic,
>I think the last year that any party in Germany had a chance to end
>the madness was about 1933. For age, I used myself as an example. I
>didn't care much about politics until college, so I think 16 would be
>about right. Between age 10 and 16, my interests were girls,
>bicycles, ham radio and early computers. Had I been the same age in
>1933-1939 Germany, I probably would have been a member of the
>Hitlerjugend and had my political views delivered to me by the party.
><https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler_Youth>
>
>Recalculating, in order to be 16 in 1933, a witness would need to have
>been born in 1933 - 16 = 1917 and would therefore be 2021 - 1917 = 104
>years old today. I guess Tom thinks it's safe to shove words into the
>mouths of those who are safely dead and buried.

Well the Internet has it that there are 82,000 centenarians in the
United States (:-)

But, I suppose that as Tommy's "proof" is so frequently "I said so"
perhaps that isn't a sufficient number to refute his delusions.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Wednesday, October 20, 2021 at 8:53:35 AM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> On 10/20/2021 8:13 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > On Wednesday, October 20, 2021 at 2:50:23 PM UTC+2, AMuzi wrote:
> >> On 10/20/2021 4:29 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> >>> On Tuesday, October 19, 2021 at 9:06:34 PM UTC+2, sms wrote:
> >>>> On 10/19/2021 11:29 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> >>>
> >>> .
> >>>>
> >>>> One of my friends, in her 60's, and short, gave up on finding what she
> >>>> needed at a bicycle shop and ended up getting a custom titanium bike..
> >>>
> >>> Hmm, someone not finding what she is looking for and ended up getting a custom Ti bike? I wonder what she was looking for. A bike that fits her or something special?
> >>>
> >>> Lou
> >>>
> >> Over the last few years very tall people have been well
> >> accommodated by our industry, 68cm are now a standard size:
> >> http://www.yellowjersey.org/fastl11.jpg
> >>
> >> At the small end of sizing, custom is still sometimes necessary:
> >> http://www.yellowjersey.org/wfd650t2.jpg
> >
> > Sure, but was that better 20 years ago? I don't think so.
> >
> > Lou
> >
> You're correct. No, not at all.
>
> Custom generally has declined because there's more
> style/material/size selection than ever. Extra small frames
> are the last unaddressed area where custom is still popular.
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Back in the mid 1990s my Mom. Short height. Needed a bike to ride across the USA. Pacific to Atlantic oceans. She bought a factory Trek aluminum bike with a triple and 650C wheels. Back then bike makers realized small people needed appropriately sized wheels to make the rest of the bike geometry work. Some companies used 26" wheels on road bikes. But Trek chose to use the sort of common, available, 650C wheels size. This was long before 650B wheels became the in style cool wheel size it is today. This Trek was a road bike. It only took skinny tires. But had a triple.

Once, or for a short period of time, bike makers understood that fitting short people meant making a proportional bike. Small frame, small wheels too.. But today making correct bikes is not cool I guess. I doubt any bike maker today making tiny frames uses correctly sized wheels. They try to make large wheels, 700C, fit tiny frames. They don't. Similar to Nike only making size 9 shoes. Everyone wears size 9 shoes. Doesn't make no difference if your feet are size 7 or size 12. You wear size 9 shoes if you want Nike swoosh.

On Wednesday, October 20, 2021 at 10:17:31 AM UTC-5, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wed, 20 Oct 2021 07:05:50 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >Jeff. you like all of your good little NAZI pals will say anything won't you? Covid-19 despite the fact that there isn't any such thing. Or at least no pandemic disease killing people. Climate change despite the fact that there is no unusual climate change. You're tell me about how much electricity it takes to manufacture a titanium bicycle despite the fact that is has virtually an unlimited lifespan. You are one of the good little NAZI's willing to perpetrate any lie and any time. And you think that you aren't going to become a target of your own hatred.
> Godwin's Law:
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law>
> Discussion over.
>
> [ 30 seconds totally wasted ]
> --
> Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
> PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
> Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
> Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

I had never heard of that "law". But applying it to the current situation in the USA. Covid 19 started March 2020, and it took about a year until Republicans, anti vaccination, anti mask, anti Covid, anti Critical Race Theory, anti democracy, people to scream Hitler and Nazi at school board meetings and every other gathering they attend.

On Wednesday, October 20, 2021 at 7:07:28 PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
> On Wed, 20 Oct 2021 08:47:00 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
> <funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Wednesday, October 20, 2021 at 10:05:52 AM UTC-4, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> On Tuesday, October 19, 2021 at 4:07:12 PM UTC-7, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> > On Tue, 19 Oct 2021 12:56:28 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
> >> > <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > Ralph, what resources does a bicycle use?
> >> > "How much energy does it take (on average) to produce 1 kilogram of
> >> > the following materials?"
> >> > <https://www.lowtechmagazine.com/what-is-the-embodied-energy-of-materials.html>
> >> > Note the rather large amount of electricity needed to make 1kg of
> >> > titanium.
> >> >
> >> > "What is the greenest type of bike frame?"
> >> > <https://grist.org/living/what-is-the-greenest-type-of-bike-frame/>
> >> >
> >> > From the standpoint of best long term investment and minimum resource
> >> > depletion, a used or reconditioned bicycle of any type would probably
> >> > be best. From the standpoint of corporate enrichment, a bicycle that
> >> > lasts just long enough to win a race, and then falls apart, is
> >> > probably today's optimum retail bicycle. For a new bicycle, wood has
> >> > the smallest environmental impact, but probably a very high labor
> >> > content. For the best sustainability, it's better to repair than to
> >> > replace.
> >> > --
> >> > Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
> >> > PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
> >> > Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
> >> > Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
> >> Jeff. you like all of your good little NAZI pals will say anything won't you? Covid-19 despite the fact that there isn't any such thing. Or at least no pandemic disease killing people. Climate change despite the fact that there is no unusual climate change. You're tell me about how much electricity it takes to manufacture a titanium bicycle despite the fact that is has virtually an unlimited lifespan. You are one of the good little NAZI's willing to perpetrate any lie and any time. And you think that you aren't going to become a target of your own hatred.
> >
> >Tommy going full Godwin on display
> Well taking Tommy's frequent posts about all the illegal immigrants
> and the National Socialists frequent allusion to the Master, i.e.
> Caucasian, Race it seem obvious that Tommy is a firm believer in at
> least some of Adolph's theories.
>
> Although it must be said that Tommy coming from a slovac background
> probably wouldn't have qualified as a member of the Master Race (:-)
He'd be given a pass as a member of the Ustaše

On 10/21/2021 2:34 AM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 20, 2021 at 10:17:31 AM UTC-5, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Wed, 20 Oct 2021 07:05:50 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Jeff. you like all of your good little NAZI pals will say anything won't you? Covid-19 despite the fact that there isn't any such thing. Or at least no pandemic disease killing people. Climate change despite the fact that there is no unusual climate change. You're tell me about how much electricity it takes to manufacture a titanium bicycle despite the fact that is has virtually an unlimited lifespan. You are one of the good little NAZI's willing to perpetrate any lie and any time. And you think that you aren't going to become a target of your own hatred.
>> Godwin's Law:
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law>
>> Discussion over.
>>
>> [ 30 seconds totally wasted ]
>> --
>> Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
>> PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
>> Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
>> Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
>
> I had never heard of that "law". But applying it to the current situation in the USA. Covid 19 started March 2020, and it took about a year until Republicans, anti vaccination, anti mask, anti Covid, anti Critical Race Theory, anti democracy, people to scream Hitler and Nazi at school board meetings and every other gathering they attend.

I'm sure most of those people never heard of Godwin's Law either. Fox
News has never done a report on it.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 10/20/2021 11:27 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:

<snip>

> Back in the mid 1990s my Mom. Short height. Needed a bike to ride across the USA. Pacific to Atlantic oceans. She bought a factory Trek aluminum bike with a triple and 650C wheels. Back then bike makers realized small people needed appropriately sized wheels to make the rest of the bike geometry work. Some companies used 26" wheels on road bikes. But Trek chose to use the sort of common, available, 650C wheels size. This was long before 650B wheels became the in style cool wheel size it is today. This Trek was a road bike. It only took skinny tires. But had a triple.
>
> Once, or for a short period of time, bike makers understood that fitting short people meant making a proportional bike. Small frame, small wheels too. But today making correct bikes is not cool I guess. I doubt any bike maker today making tiny frames uses correctly sized wheels. They try to make large wheels, 700C, fit tiny frames. They don't. Similar to Nike only making size 9 shoes. Everyone wears size 9 shoes. Doesn't make no difference if your feet are size 7 or size 12. You wear size 9 shoes if you want Nike swoosh.

Your mom is no longer the target market for Trek, or Specialized.

What used to be production bicycles, reasonably priced, are now either
niche and expensive boutique bicycles, or custom.

There are still some companies making small frames and selling them to
bicycle shops that will build up a complete bicycle, i.e. Soma has a 42
cm frame. But it's expensive because often a shop wants to charge you
full retail price for every component on the bike--it's like building a
car buying all the parts from a car dealer's parts department.

I saw this list
<https://www.cyclingabout.com/list-of-touring-bikes-for-smaller-cyclists/>
not sure how many of them are actually available, and how many offer
full range gearing.

On 10/20/2021 11:34 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:

<snip>

> I had never heard of that "law". But applying it to the current situation in the USA. Covid 19 started March 2020, and it took about a year until Republicans, anti vaccination, anti mask, anti Covid, anti Critical Race Theory, anti democracy, people to scream Hitler and Nazi at school board meetings and every other gathering they attend.

I am fortunate to live in an area where almost none of the population
acts like that! And that includes Republicans. There are two people in
Santa Clara Valley that have been seen holding up anti-mask signs at
various places, but it is very rare to see something like that. There
have been a small number of reported incidents of people being not
allowed into stores for refusing to abide by mask mandates but only a
couple of times were there any physical altercations over mask mandates,
in the other cases they either left peacefully or put on a mask that the
business provided.

No one ever called into a City Council meeting while I was the mayor
complaining about masks, vaccinations, or testing. We passed the first
mask mandate ordinance in our County after our public health officer,
for some unknown reason, failed to act (all the other counties passed
mask mandates, but Santa Clara County refused, and eventually cities had
to pass their own mask mandates).

There were a few parents that thought the schools should have re-opened
before there were vaccinations available, but it was a very small number.

Do not extrapolate Tom's behavior onto all, or even most, Republicans.
Biden won by gaining a larger share of educated voters, especially
Republicans, even in a heavily Republican state like Georgia.

You can't go just by education either. In my city 94.4% of people over
12 are fully vaccinated. Where Tom lives, 83.4% of people over 12 have
been vaccinated. But there is a vast difference in education level (79%
versus 32% of residents with a college degree).

In the time of Reagan, there were "Reagan Democrats," who were largely
blue-collar, non-college educated, and socially conservative. Now we
have "Biden Republicans," who are affluent, educated and socially
liberal (though in California many of those Republicans changed their
registration to NPP (No Party Preference).

On Wednesday, October 20, 2021 at 11:27:32 PM UTC-7, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 20, 2021 at 8:53:35 AM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> > On 10/20/2021 8:13 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, October 20, 2021 at 2:50:23 PM UTC+2, AMuzi wrote:
> > >> On 10/20/2021 4:29 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > >>> On Tuesday, October 19, 2021 at 9:06:34 PM UTC+2, sms wrote:
> > >>>> On 10/19/2021 11:29 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> .
> > >>>>
> > >>>> One of my friends, in her 60's, and short, gave up on finding what she
> > >>>> needed at a bicycle shop and ended up getting a custom titanium bike.
> > >>>
> > >>> Hmm, someone not finding what she is looking for and ended up getting a custom Ti bike? I wonder what she was looking for. A bike that fits her or something special?
> > >>>
> > >>> Lou
> > >>>
> > >> Over the last few years very tall people have been well
> > >> accommodated by our industry, 68cm are now a standard size:
> > >> http://www.yellowjersey.org/fastl11.jpg
> > >>
> > >> At the small end of sizing, custom is still sometimes necessary:
> > >> http://www.yellowjersey.org/wfd650t2.jpg
> > >
> > > Sure, but was that better 20 years ago? I don't think so.
> > >
> > > Lou
> > >
> > You're correct. No, not at all.
> >
> > Custom generally has declined because there's more
> > style/material/size selection than ever. Extra small frames
> > are the last unaddressed area where custom is still popular.
> > --
> > Andrew Muzi
> > <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> > Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> Back in the mid 1990s my Mom. Short height. Needed a bike to ride across the USA. Pacific to Atlantic oceans. She bought a factory Trek aluminum bike with a triple and 650C wheels. Back then bike makers realized small people needed appropriately sized wheels to make the rest of the bike geometry work. Some companies used 26" wheels on road bikes. But Trek chose to use the sort of common, available, 650C wheels size. This was long before 650B wheels became the in style cool wheel size it is today. This Trek was a road bike. It only took skinny tires. But had a triple.
>
> Once, or for a short period of time, bike makers understood that fitting short people meant making a proportional bike. Small frame, small wheels too. But today making correct bikes is not cool I guess. I doubt any bike maker today making tiny frames uses correctly sized wheels. They try to make large wheels, 700C, fit tiny frames. They don't. Similar to Nike only making size 9 shoes. Everyone wears size 9 shoes. Doesn't make no difference if your feet are size 7 or size 12. You wear size 9 shoes if you want Nike swoosh.

I assume your mom took some spare tires. Finding a 650B tire in most places was impossible in the '90s. And let's be specific. In the mid '90s, let's say 1995, these were Trek's offerings: chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/viewer.html?pdfurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.vintage-trek.com%2FTrek-Fisher-Klein-Lemond%2F1995trek.pdf&clen=36367561&chunk=true

I'm not seeing a 650B bike. The skinny tire 2120 with a triple wasn't even one-to-one (30/28) -- a current Checkpoint ALR has a lower low and is a better touring bike, but it starts in a 49cm.

-- Jay Beattie.

On 10/21/2021 12:47 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 20, 2021 at 11:27:32 PM UTC-7, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
>> On Wednesday, October 20, 2021 at 8:53:35 AM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 10/20/2021 8:13 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>> On Wednesday, October 20, 2021 at 2:50:23 PM UTC+2, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>> On 10/20/2021 4:29 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>>>> On Tuesday, October 19, 2021 at 9:06:34 PM UTC+2, sms wrote:
>>>>>>> On 10/19/2021 11:29 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> One of my friends, in her 60's, and short, gave up on finding what she
>>>>>>> needed at a bicycle shop and ended up getting a custom titanium bike.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hmm, someone not finding what she is looking for and ended up getting a custom Ti bike? I wonder what she was looking for. A bike that fits her or something special?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lou
>>>>>>
>>>>> Over the last few years very tall people have been well
>>>>> accommodated by our industry, 68cm are now a standard size:
>>>>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/fastl11.jpg
>>>>>
>>>>> At the small end of sizing, custom is still sometimes necessary:
>>>>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/wfd650t2.jpg
>>>>
>>>> Sure, but was that better 20 years ago? I don't think so.
>>>>
>>>> Lou
>>>>
>>> You're correct. No, not at all.
>>>
>>> Custom generally has declined because there's more
>>> style/material/size selection than ever. Extra small frames
>>> are the last unaddressed area where custom is still popular.
>>> --
>>> Andrew Muzi
>>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
>>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>> Back in the mid 1990s my Mom. Short height. Needed a bike to ride across the USA. Pacific to Atlantic oceans. She bought a factory Trek aluminum bike with a triple and 650C wheels. Back then bike makers realized small people needed appropriately sized wheels to make the rest of the bike geometry work. Some companies used 26" wheels on road bikes. But Trek chose to use the sort of common, available, 650C wheels size. This was long before 650B wheels became the in style cool wheel size it is today. This Trek was a road bike. It only took skinny tires. But had a triple.
>>
>> Once, or for a short period of time, bike makers understood that fitting short people meant making a proportional bike. Small frame, small wheels too. But today making correct bikes is not cool I guess. I doubt any bike maker today making tiny frames uses correctly sized wheels. They try to make large wheels, 700C, fit tiny frames. They don't. Similar to Nike only making size 9 shoes. Everyone wears size 9 shoes. Doesn't make no difference if your feet are size 7 or size 12. You wear size 9 shoes if you want Nike swoosh.
>
> I assume your mom took some spare tires. Finding a 650B tire in most places was impossible in the '90s. And let's be specific. In the mid '90s, let's say 1995, these were Trek's offerings: chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/viewer.html?pdfurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.vintage-trek.com%2FTrek-Fisher-Klein-Lemond%2F1995trek.pdf&clen=36367561&chunk=true
>
> I'm not seeing a 650B bike. The skinny tire 2120 with a triple wasn't even one-to-one (30/28) -- a current Checkpoint ALR has a lower low and is a better touring bike, but it starts in a 49cm.
>
> -- Jay Beattie.
>
571mm 650C was a popular triathlon format from the 1980s
through the early 2000s. 584mm 650B was nearly extinct until
recently (last 10 years) resurrected.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Thursday, October 21, 2021 at 12:47:38 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 20, 2021 at 11:27:32 PM UTC-7, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > On Wednesday, October 20, 2021 at 8:53:35 AM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> > > On 10/20/2021 8:13 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > > On Wednesday, October 20, 2021 at 2:50:23 PM UTC+2, AMuzi wrote:
> > > >> On 10/20/2021 4:29 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > >>> On Tuesday, October 19, 2021 at 9:06:34 PM UTC+2, sms wrote:
> > > >>>> On 10/19/2021 11:29 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > >>>
> > > >>> .
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> One of my friends, in her 60's, and short, gave up on finding what she
> > > >>>> needed at a bicycle shop and ended up getting a custom titanium bike.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Hmm, someone not finding what she is looking for and ended up getting a custom Ti bike? I wonder what she was looking for. A bike that fits her or something special?
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Lou
> > > >>>
> > > >> Over the last few years very tall people have been well
> > > >> accommodated by our industry, 68cm are now a standard size:
> > > >> http://www.yellowjersey.org/fastl11.jpg
> > > >>
> > > >> At the small end of sizing, custom is still sometimes necessary:
> > > >> http://www.yellowjersey.org/wfd650t2.jpg
> > > >
> > > > Sure, but was that better 20 years ago? I don't think so.
> > > >
> > > > Lou
> > > >
> > > You're correct. No, not at all.
> > >
> > > Custom generally has declined because there's more
> > > style/material/size selection than ever. Extra small frames
> > > are the last unaddressed area where custom is still popular.
> > > --
> > > Andrew Muzi
> > > <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> > > Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> > Back in the mid 1990s my Mom. Short height. Needed a bike to ride across the USA. Pacific to Atlantic oceans. She bought a factory Trek aluminum bike with a triple and 650C wheels. Back then bike makers realized small people needed appropriately sized wheels to make the rest of the bike geometry work. Some companies used 26" wheels on road bikes. But Trek chose to use the sort of common, available, 650C wheels size. This was long before 650B wheels became the in style cool wheel size it is today. This Trek was a road bike. It only took skinny tires. But had a triple.
> >
> > Once, or for a short period of time, bike makers understood that fitting short people meant making a proportional bike. Small frame, small wheels too. But today making correct bikes is not cool I guess. I doubt any bike maker today making tiny frames uses correctly sized wheels. They try to make large wheels, 700C, fit tiny frames. They don't. Similar to Nike only making size 9 shoes. Everyone wears size 9 shoes. Doesn't make no difference if your feet are size 7 or size 12. You wear size 9 shoes if you want Nike swoosh.
> I assume your mom took some spare tires. Finding a 650B tire in most places was impossible in the '90s. And let's be specific. In the mid '90s, let's say 1995, these were Trek's offerings: chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/viewer.html?pdfurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.vintage-trek.com%2FTrek-Fisher-Klein-Lemond%2F1995trek.pdf&clen=36367561&chunk=true
>
> I'm not seeing a 650B bike. The skinny tire 2120 with a triple wasn't even one-to-one (30/28) -- a current Checkpoint ALR has a lower low and is a better touring bike, but it starts in a 49cm.
>
> -- Jay Beattie.

Here it is. I got the years a bit mixed up. 2000 not mid 1990s.

2000 Trek 2200 WSD. 650C wheels. Not 650B the new stylish size. The old little 650C wheels that were almost exactly like 26" wheels. Shimano 105 9 speed triple. I know she has a bigger cog on back than the listed 12-25. Women Specific Design. Little bike frame, little wheels. Same purple color.
https://www.bicyclebluebook.com/value-guide/product/45205/

On Thursday, October 21, 2021 at 11:27:12 PM UTC-7, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Thursday, October 21, 2021 at 12:47:38 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
> > On Wednesday, October 20, 2021 at 11:27:32 PM UTC-7, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, October 20, 2021 at 8:53:35 AM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> > > > On 10/20/2021 8:13 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > > > On Wednesday, October 20, 2021 at 2:50:23 PM UTC+2, AMuzi wrote:
> > > > >> On 10/20/2021 4:29 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > > >>> On Tuesday, October 19, 2021 at 9:06:34 PM UTC+2, sms wrote:
> > > > >>>> On 10/19/2021 11:29 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> .
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> One of my friends, in her 60's, and short, gave up on finding what she
> > > > >>>> needed at a bicycle shop and ended up getting a custom titanium bike.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Hmm, someone not finding what she is looking for and ended up getting a custom Ti bike? I wonder what she was looking for. A bike that fits her or something special?
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Lou
> > > > >>>
> > > > >> Over the last few years very tall people have been well
> > > > >> accommodated by our industry, 68cm are now a standard size:
> > > > >> http://www.yellowjersey.org/fastl11.jpg
> > > > >>
> > > > >> At the small end of sizing, custom is still sometimes necessary:
> > > > >> http://www.yellowjersey.org/wfd650t2.jpg
> > > > >
> > > > > Sure, but was that better 20 years ago? I don't think so.
> > > > >
> > > > > Lou
> > > > >
> > > > You're correct. No, not at all.
> > > >
> > > > Custom generally has declined because there's more
> > > > style/material/size selection than ever. Extra small frames
> > > > are the last unaddressed area where custom is still popular.
> > > > --
> > > > Andrew Muzi
> > > > <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> > > > Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> > > Back in the mid 1990s my Mom. Short height. Needed a bike to ride across the USA. Pacific to Atlantic oceans. She bought a factory Trek aluminum bike with a triple and 650C wheels. Back then bike makers realized small people needed appropriately sized wheels to make the rest of the bike geometry work. Some companies used 26" wheels on road bikes. But Trek chose to use the sort of common, available, 650C wheels size. This was long before 650B wheels became the in style cool wheel size it is today. This Trek was a road bike. It only took skinny tires. But had a triple.
> > >
> > > Once, or for a short period of time, bike makers understood that fitting short people meant making a proportional bike. Small frame, small wheels too. But today making correct bikes is not cool I guess. I doubt any bike maker today making tiny frames uses correctly sized wheels. They try to make large wheels, 700C, fit tiny frames. They don't. Similar to Nike only making size 9 shoes. Everyone wears size 9 shoes. Doesn't make no difference if your feet are size 7 or size 12. You wear size 9 shoes if you want Nike swoosh.
> > I assume your mom took some spare tires. Finding a 650B tire in most places was impossible in the '90s. And let's be specific. In the mid '90s, let's say 1995, these were Trek's offerings: chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/viewer.html?pdfurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.vintage-trek.com%2FTrek-Fisher-Klein-Lemond%2F1995trek.pdf&clen=36367561&chunk=true
> >
> > I'm not seeing a 650B bike. The skinny tire 2120 with a triple wasn't even one-to-one (30/28) -- a current Checkpoint ALR has a lower low and is a better touring bike, but it starts in a 49cm.
> >
> > -- Jay Beattie.
> Here it is. I got the years a bit mixed up. 2000 not mid 1990s.
>
> 2000 Trek 2200 WSD. 650C wheels. Not 650B the new stylish size. The old little 650C wheels that were almost exactly like 26" wheels. Shimano 105 9 speed triple. I know she has a bigger cog on back than the listed 12-25. Women Specific Design. Little bike frame, little wheels. Same purple color.
> https://www.bicyclebluebook.com/value-guide/product/45205/

650b was a European size that would mount European size tires. 650c were standard Schwinn tires that would NOT work on 650b.