novaBBS - rec.bicycles.tech - Re: Bicycle Subjects

On Tuesday, October 26, 2021 at 9:23:07 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, October 25, 2021 at 5:08:06 PM UTC-7, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > On Monday, October 25, 2021 at 10:31:56 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Sunday, October 24, 2021 at 12:04:07 PM UTC-7, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > > On Sunday, October 24, 2021 at 1:34:39 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > On Sunday, October 24, 2021 at 11:29:43 AM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > > > On Sunday, October 24, 2021 at 10:46:41 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > > > > > > On 10/24/2021 11:07 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > > > > > Disks will overheat to the point where the metal becomes pliable...
> > > > > > > > Hmm. "Pliable" is not a term normally found in tables of metallic
> > > > > > > properties. How is that defined, exactly? What units are used to measure
> > > > > > > it?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > ... and there is nothing you can do about that. Shimano has even gone so far as to sandwich two steel plates over an aluminum center to spread the heat and yet they have measured 350 C on descents. What so you suppose that does to the brake pads and hydraulic fluid? Bu
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > That's pretty impressive. 350 C is seriously hot. Can you give us a link
> > > > > > > describing the details of the bike's descent, the method of temperature
> > > > > > > measurement,
> > > > > > They simulated the downhill constant braking on a rolling resistance drum and used that really modern technology called infrared photography. This required multimillions of dollars as I'm sure you would agree. Of course, the really hard part would be knowing what color would be what temperature. You might be forced to open a physics book. Or if they really wanted to go out on a limb, they could pay $80 for an over-the-counter pyrometer and take direct temperature readings in real time.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > For the life of me I simply cannot tell why you feel the need to prove to everyone that as an engineer you are totally incompetent. You have been doing this repeatedly and I have simply figured it was you attempting to make me write another thesis. But it has become so plain that a child could tell that you know NOTHING about engineering.
> > > > > Frank, I am not saying this merely as some sort of baseless insult. I think that it is time for you to face the fact that if you ever had any engineering knowledge that time has long ago passed. You sound like Russell who can't do simple math telling us that he is an accountant.
> > > > But Tommy boy, I have shown you lots and lots of simple math that plainly and clearly show the stock market went up more under Obama than under Trump. Yet you, no high school diploma, cannot understand that math. I encourage you to show us the stock market numbers on Obama's two inaugurations and on Trump's inauguration and the numbers on their leaving office. Then we can all do the simple math. Please present the FACTS Tommy. FACTS. FACTS.
> > > >
> > > > When you present these stock numbers, please present broad based numbers representing the whole stock market. Such as the Vanguard Total stock market, the S&P 500. Dow Jones, Russell 2000, Nasdaq, QQQ. Something that is a lot of companies. Not one or two companies that went up or down. Broad based, diverse.
> > > >
> > > > Me and everyone else are waiting for your factual numbers Tommy boy..
> > > I showed you the numbers of the market during Obama and Trump and you couldn't dispute them but then you turned right around and said that people made money during Obama. Plainly you have something missing if you couldn't tell the difference between attempting to recover from the Great Recession and " making money". No one with any investments save the lucky few who predicted the wild growth of Google and Facebook and Amazon made any money. Why did you do this when it was so plainly not true? That FINAL growth of 11% was more than absorbed by the deflation of the dollar from Obama's printing money for his quantitative easing. Inventing your own universe like Scharf does (and continues to do so sadly that even Frank has to call him out) is not a sign of intelligence. As an accountant you must be able to have seen what happened to the market. Either that or it was of no interest to you because you had no investments to lose and no bank savings to have deflated out of existence.
> >
> > You are STUPID Tommy boy. Anyway...
> >
> > Below is a post I made in another thread. I have edited it a bit.
> >
> >
> > "I am going to use the S&P 500 index as the Market. It is only the 500 biggest market capitalization companies, but it is a broad representation of all areas of the economy since the 500 biggest companies do everything on earth.
> >
> > Below is a table, list, columns, showing the S&P 500 index on January 20 or the prior closing day if the 20th is a weekend. Year first, then S&P 500 index are the two columns. Easy to figure out the annual return in the S&P 500 each year.
> > 2009 805.22
> > 2010 1138.04
> > 2011 1280.26
> > 2012 1315.38
> > 2013 1485.98
> > 2014 1838.7
> > 2015 2022.55
> > 2016 1859.33
> > 2017 2271.31
> >
> > S&P 500 under golden calf Trump. All are January 20 prices in the year listed.
> > 2017 2271.31
> > 2018 2810.3
> > 2019 2670.71
> > 2020 3329.62
> > 2021 3851.85"
> >
> >
> > The S&P 500 reached an all time high of 1565.15 on October 9, 2007.
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closing_milestones_of_the_S%26P_500
> >
> > The S&P 500 reached that high again on March 28, 2013 at 1569.19. This happened during Obama's second term as president.
> >
> > During Obama's first term the S&P 500 went from 805.22 to 1485.98, GAIN of 84.54% since he took office. During Obama's second term the S&P 500 went from 1485.98 to 2271.31, GAIN of 52.85%. During Trump's one term as president the S&P 500 went from 2271.31 to 3851.85, GAIN of 69.59%.
> >
> > Now I will throw the scoundrel DOG Tommy boy a bone. It took Obama four years and two plus months in office to get the S&P 500 back to the high reached under Bush2. Do you understand that Tommy boy? The high for the S&P 500 was achieved by BUSH2 back in October 9, 2007. BUSH2 the REPUBLICAN. Obama the Democrat did not take office until almost 16 months later. The S&P 500 was at a high months before the first primary in Iowa was even held in January 2008. I'm guessing Obama had declared himself running for president by October 2007. But BUSH2 was president when the S&P 500 reached its high on October 9, 2007. And it took until March 28, 2013 before Obama got the S&P 500 to close that high again. Four plus years later. Obama had to overcome a lot of destruction to the economy that Bush2 and Republicans did before he took office. And it took until his second term to overcome their destruction.
> >
> > You seem fascinated with this high and low of the markets. You seem to think everyone, or you anyway, can buy at the low and sell at the high. And you think this is achievable every single day too. Maybe for you the greatest financial genius in all of history, you, can do this. But everyone else sees high and lows and that is it. For instance, all of the stocks I own were at a high today. But I did not sell at the high today. No, I kept them and they all finished lower than the daily highs. So by your F-cked up nonsense, I lost money today. But no, I gained from the closing yesterday to the closing today. No one on earth can buy and sell every day at the highs and lows every day. You would be the richest person on earth if you could do that every day.
> Why do you insist on showing your ignorance. According to Russy, there was no recession at all let alone a Great Recession. Well, as it turns out, the Standard and Poor's 500 are the largest companies in the US and in some cases the world and those least likely to have much change in their values. These are the companies that people who do not wish to make money but only want a place to safely stash their money so that it pays slightly more than bank rates invests. This is where Billionaires invest, not the common investor.
>

Gosh almighty, Tommy. You are STUPID!!!!!!!!!!!!!

> Don't you find it interesting that Russy had to work very hard to show that large companies even, did poorly under Obama?

Stupid. The S&P 500, the LARGE companies, did very well under Obama's presidency. Started at 805.22 on Obama's first inauguration and ended at 2271.31 when he left office eight years later. The FACTS show this very clearly.. Since you are mathematically challenged Tommy boy, I will explain to you that 2271.31 is a whole lot larger than 805.22. The S&P 500 GAINED 182% during Obama's time in office. GAINED 182%!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! GAINED 182%!!!!!!!!!!!!! GAINED 182%!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Click here to read the complete article

> Why do you insist on showing your ignorance. According to Russy, there was no recession at all let alone a Great Recession. Well, as it turns out, the Standard and Poor's 500 are the largest companies in the US and in some cases the world and those least likely to have much change in their values. These are the companies that people who do not wish to make money but only want a place to safely stash their money so that it pays slightly more than bank rates invests. This is where Billionaires invest, not the common investor.

Sorry my apologies. I forgot to comment on this asinine statement by Tommy in my first response to this basket case of a reply by Tommy boy.

Tommy said: "the Standard and Poor's 500 are the largest companies in the US and in some cases the world and those least likely to have much change in their values. These are the companies that people who do not wish to make money but only want a place to safely stash their money so that it pays slightly more than bank rates invests."

So Tommy thinks the S&P 500 are the companies least likely to have much change in their values. Apple, Microsoft, Facebook, Google, Amazon are all the very top of the S&P 500 list. They don't ever change in valuation. Right Tommy boy? Stupidity, thy name is Tommy. So people who do not want to make any money buy these stocks? I bet no one has ever made any money buying Apple or Facebook or Google or Microsoft or Amazon. They just bought these stocks to earn more than their bank interest rates. I know its too complex for Tommy boy to do the math, but anyone else can easily see the annual percentage increase in the S&P 500 is much greater than bank interest rates. Except 2015 to 2016 and 2018 to 2019 when the S&P 500 lost money those two years.

Click here to read the complete article

> Why do you insist on showing your ignorance. According to Russy, there was no recession at all let alone a Great Recession.

Apologies again for responding again to this one post from Tommy. It had so many crazy arse comments I lost track of what to castigate him about. Yes Tommy boy there was a Great Recession. They had to think up a new name after the Great Depression of the 1930s. So Great Recession. Maybe they will call the next big huge enormous downfall the Great Catastrophe. Anyway, the Great Recession officially occurred December 2007 to June 2009. Bush2 was president from December 2007 to January 20, 2009. Obama took over as president on January 20, 2009 and was still president when he ended the great Recession in June 2009. Started by the Republicans, ended by the Democrats. Typical.

This is what Google displayed when I did a search on "great recession".
The Great Recession, one of the worst economic declines in US history, officially lasted from December 2007 to June 2009. The collapse of the housing market — fueled by low interest rates, easy credit, insufficient regulation, and toxic subprime mortgages — led to the economic crisis..

Click here to read the complete article

Tom Kunich <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Monday, October 25, 2021 at 11:41:57 AM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> John B. <sloc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Sun, 24 Oct 2021 19:37:58 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sunday, October 24, 2021 at 5:55:00 PM UTC-5, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>>> John B. <sloc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On Sun, 24 Oct 2021 13:46:35 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 10/24/2021 11:07 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>> Disks will overheat to the point where the metal becomes pliable...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hmm. "Pliable" is not a term normally found in tables of metallic
>>>>>>> properties. How is that defined, exactly? What units are used to measure
>>>>>>> it?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ... and there is nothing you can do about that. Shimano has even gone
>>>>>>>> so far as to sandwich two steel plates over an aluminum center to
>>>>>>>> spread the heat and yet they have measured 350 C on descents. What so
>>>>>>>> you suppose that does to the brake pads and hydraulic fluid? But
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That's pretty impressive. 350 C is seriously hot. Can you give us a link
>>>>>>> describing the details of the bike's descent, the method of temperature
>>>>>>> measurement, etc?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I really wonder about this brake heating as I've descended some rather
>>>>>> long and steep hills with aluminum rims with no apparent heating at
>>>>>> all. Perhaps it is in the technique?
>>>>> Largely I think possibly exasperated by some road bikes being fitted with
>>>>> 140mm rotors in a weight saving effort.
>>>>>
>>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>>
>>>> I've always been a bit skeptical of the overheating rims and blowing off
>>>> tires myth. I've toured on a loaded touring bike in the Swiss Alp,
>>>> Italian Dolomites, and Colorado Rockies. Multi, multi mile descents.
>>>> 50-60 mph easily achieved. I would always brake hard and slow down a
>>>> lot. And then coast back up to high speed. Repeat. Because I was
>>>> aware of the overheating rims myth, I never ever rode the brakes
>>>> constantly. On hard, then off to let them cool. If that was even needed.
>>>
>>> I once did a sort of test on rim heating. First time down the mountain
>>> I rode the brakes nearly all the way down and stopped and felt of the
>>> rims. Yes! Hot! then I did a repeat run braking hard to almost a
>>> walking speed then off the brake and coasted and braked hard, etc.
>>> Felt the rims and not hot at all.
>> One of my MTB descents is wet rocky and very steep, you can hear how hot
>> the brakes get due to the water boiling off the rotors!
>>
>> It’s about the only one though and the brakes don’t seem to mind ie fade
>> they just get hot!
>
> I really don't understand this. Although the off-road stuff I was riding
> was REALLY extreme and I was fairly careful with the brakes, I warped a
> disk myself. How can anyone ride off-road crash and burn levels of MTB
> and not have disk warping? In that video I sited the expansion and
> contraction of the Shimano sandwich disks were causing them to fracture
> on the sides. I think they even showed a disk with a chunk broken out of
> it. It isn't as if this is some unknown problem. That is why Shimano is
> attempting to find a means of preventing it.
>
I’ve yet to but my background is MTB I’m a MTBer who likes road bikes well
Gravel bikes. So I’m quite light on the bike, after all I grew up with
bikes with no suspension and primitive braking at best!

I don’t even seem to wear out pads fast and I use organic as sintered does
my head in!

I go though though the full travel on the suspension now and then, and have
ripped tires that weren’t burly enough, mainly when first had the full
suspension and it allows you to travel much faster/harder and the lighter
weight tires I had being using just didn’t cope!

> Another problem is that now people are using direct mount calipers. These
> are mounted directly on carbon fiber forks and chainstays and produce
> temperatures well above those that melt the resins used in carbon fiber.
> Because people so rarely are in these positions they don't know what can
> happen. This reminds me of a video that one of the crit guys posted.
> There was a guy drafting the camera bike and he pulled out for the final
> sprint and as he pulled out and hit the gas, his aero wheel distorted
> over about 30 degrees of course crashing him. Without that video, I'll
> bet you, he would never have known what cause his crash because the wheel
> appeared normal after the crash.
>
I’d assume that would be a warranty/recall so that I suspect maybe less
that the full truth.

Roger Merriman

On Wednesday, October 27, 2021 at 1:31:46 AM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote:
> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Monday, October 25, 2021 at 11:41:57 AM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote:
> >> John B. <sloc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> On Sun, 24 Oct 2021 19:37:58 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> >>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On Sunday, October 24, 2021 at 5:55:00 PM UTC-5, Roger Merriman wrote:
> >>>>> John B. <sloc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>> On Sun, 24 Oct 2021 13:46:35 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> >>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On 10/24/2021 11:07 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>>>>>> Disks will overheat to the point where the metal becomes pliable....
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Hmm. "Pliable" is not a term normally found in tables of metallic
> >>>>>>> properties. How is that defined, exactly? What units are used to measure
> >>>>>>> it?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> ... and there is nothing you can do about that. Shimano has even gone
> >>>>>>>> so far as to sandwich two steel plates over an aluminum center to
> >>>>>>>> spread the heat and yet they have measured 350 C on descents. What so
> >>>>>>>> you suppose that does to the brake pads and hydraulic fluid? But
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> That's pretty impressive. 350 C is seriously hot. Can you give us a link
> >>>>>>> describing the details of the bike's descent, the method of temperature
> >>>>>>> measurement, etc?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I really wonder about this brake heating as I've descended some rather
> >>>>>> long and steep hills with aluminum rims with no apparent heating at
> >>>>>> all. Perhaps it is in the technique?
> >>>>> Largely I think possibly exasperated by some road bikes being fitted with
> >>>>> 140mm rotors in a weight saving effort.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Roger Merriman
> >>>>
> >>>> I've always been a bit skeptical of the overheating rims and blowing off
> >>>> tires myth. I've toured on a loaded touring bike in the Swiss Alp,
> >>>> Italian Dolomites, and Colorado Rockies. Multi, multi mile descents.
> >>>> 50-60 mph easily achieved. I would always brake hard and slow down a
> >>>> lot. And then coast back up to high speed. Repeat. Because I was
> >>>> aware of the overheating rims myth, I never ever rode the brakes
> >>>> constantly. On hard, then off to let them cool. If that was even needed.
> >>>
> >>> I once did a sort of test on rim heating. First time down the mountain
> >>> I rode the brakes nearly all the way down and stopped and felt of the
> >>> rims. Yes! Hot! then I did a repeat run braking hard to almost a
> >>> walking speed then off the brake and coasted and braked hard, etc.
> >>> Felt the rims and not hot at all.
> >> One of my MTB descents is wet rocky and very steep, you can hear how hot
> >> the brakes get due to the water boiling off the rotors!
> >>
> >> It’s about the only one though and the brakes don’t seem to mind ie fade
> >> they just get hot!
> >
> > I really don't understand this. Although the off-road stuff I was riding
> > was REALLY extreme and I was fairly careful with the brakes, I warped a
> > disk myself. How can anyone ride off-road crash and burn levels of MTB
> > and not have disk warping? In that video I sited the expansion and
> > contraction of the Shimano sandwich disks were causing them to fracture
> > on the sides. I think they even showed a disk with a chunk broken out of
> > it. It isn't as if this is some unknown problem. That is why Shimano is
> > attempting to find a means of preventing it.
> >
> I’ve yet to but my background is MTB I’m a MTBer who likes road bikes well
> Gravel bikes. So I’m quite light on the bike, after all I grew up with
> bikes with no suspension and primitive braking at best!
>
> I don’t even seem to wear out pads fast and I use organic as sintered does
> my head in!
>
> I go though though the full travel on the suspension now and then, and have
> ripped tires that weren’t burly enough, mainly when first had the full
> suspension and it allows you to travel much faster/harder and the lighter
> weight tires I had being using just didn’t cope!
> > Another problem is that now people are using direct mount calipers. These
> > are mounted directly on carbon fiber forks and chainstays and produce
> > temperatures well above those that melt the resins used in carbon fiber..
> > Because people so rarely are in these positions they don't know what can
> > happen. This reminds me of a video that one of the crit guys posted.
> > There was a guy drafting the camera bike and he pulled out for the final
> > sprint and as he pulled out and hit the gas, his aero wheel distorted
> > over about 30 degrees of course crashing him. Without that video, I'll
> > bet you, he would never have known what cause his crash because the wheel
> > appeared normal after the crash.
> >
> I’d assume that would be a warranty/recall so that I suspect maybe less
> that the full truth.

I intend to mount SpD MTB pedals on the gravel bike. I found some new takeoffs on Ebay so they're coming. I just went down into the garage and the tubeless tires are flat again. There doesn't appear to be any leaking sealant anywhere around the tires and I seem to remember that some tires would absorb the sealant and need almost immediate renewal so that is my next move. With them pumped all of the way up the ride was remarkably smooth very much smoother than the same size tire with a tube in it. I expect the Douglas Vector to ride smother since I installed Latex tubes in them as the only tubes I had that had 40 mm fillers. And since the largest tires that fit that bike are 25's it will need them.

I was one of the first to start riding off-road on MTB's. I had already done a lot of off-road with street bike or what became CX since touring bikes had cantilevers and VB-brakes turned up very rapidly since cantilevers required so much hand strength to stop you. Remember the Bridgestone MB series? It took a whole lot longer than you would expect to catch on. But there was a large uptick when hydraulic suspension forks showed up not so much because of the suspension I believe as much as because that heavy fork held the front end down during hard climbs.

But I used street bikes so much off-road that I could never could quite see the point in an MTB and soon returned. Now they are called gravel bikes but are what I usually rode. I did have some real CX bikes and with 32 mm knobbies on them they rolled quite well on the road. I would do our weekly Moraga Ride ( 37 miles and 3700 feet of climbing up to 10%) on them and they didn't slow me up at all. Of course I was still in my 60's and hadn't started the rather rapid slow down I have gone through.

When I am too old to climb anymore, I will do wind rides and gravel rides that simulate most if not all of the effort. I won't quit and I'm only glad my cop friend brought me back from my near death experience and I intend to torture him with his mistake for the rest of his life.

Tom Kunich <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 27, 2021 at 1:31:46 AM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Monday, October 25, 2021 at 11:41:57 AM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>> John B. <sloc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 24 Oct 2021 19:37:58 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>>>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sunday, October 24, 2021 at 5:55:00 PM UTC-5, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>>>>> John B. <sloc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Sun, 24 Oct 2021 13:46:35 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 10/24/2021 11:07 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Disks will overheat to the point where the metal becomes pliable...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hmm. "Pliable" is not a term normally found in tables of metallic
>>>>>>>>> properties. How is that defined, exactly? What units are used to measure
>>>>>>>>> it?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ... and there is nothing you can do about that. Shimano has even gone
>>>>>>>>>> so far as to sandwich two steel plates over an aluminum center to
>>>>>>>>>> spread the heat and yet they have measured 350 C on descents. What so
>>>>>>>>>> you suppose that does to the brake pads and hydraulic fluid? But
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> That's pretty impressive. 350 C is seriously hot. Can you give us a link
>>>>>>>>> describing the details of the bike's descent, the method of temperature
>>>>>>>>> measurement, etc?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I really wonder about this brake heating as I've descended some rather
>>>>>>>> long and steep hills with aluminum rims with no apparent heating at
>>>>>>>> all. Perhaps it is in the technique?
>>>>>>> Largely I think possibly exasperated by some road bikes being fitted with
>>>>>>> 140mm rotors in a weight saving effort.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I've always been a bit skeptical of the overheating rims and blowing off
>>>>>> tires myth. I've toured on a loaded touring bike in the Swiss Alp,
>>>>>> Italian Dolomites, and Colorado Rockies. Multi, multi mile descents.
>>>>>> 50-60 mph easily achieved. I would always brake hard and slow down a
>>>>>> lot. And then coast back up to high speed. Repeat. Because I was
>>>>>> aware of the overheating rims myth, I never ever rode the brakes
>>>>>> constantly. On hard, then off to let them cool. If that was even needed.
>>>>>
>>>>> I once did a sort of test on rim heating. First time down the mountain
>>>>> I rode the brakes nearly all the way down and stopped and felt of the
>>>>> rims. Yes! Hot! then I did a repeat run braking hard to almost a
>>>>> walking speed then off the brake and coasted and braked hard, etc.
>>>>> Felt the rims and not hot at all.
>>>> One of my MTB descents is wet rocky and very steep, you can hear how hot
>>>> the brakes get due to the water boiling off the rotors!
>>>>
>>>> It’s about the only one though and the brakes don’t seem to mind ie fade
>>>> they just get hot!
>>>
>>> I really don't understand this. Although the off-road stuff I was riding
>>> was REALLY extreme and I was fairly careful with the brakes, I warped a
>>> disk myself. How can anyone ride off-road crash and burn levels of MTB
>>> and not have disk warping? In that video I sited the expansion and
>>> contraction of the Shimano sandwich disks were causing them to fracture
>>> on the sides. I think they even showed a disk with a chunk broken out of
>>> it. It isn't as if this is some unknown problem. That is why Shimano is
>>> attempting to find a means of preventing it.
>>>
>> I’ve yet to but my background is MTB I’m a MTBer who likes road bikes well
>> Gravel bikes. So I’m quite light on the bike, after all I grew up with
>> bikes with no suspension and primitive braking at best!
>>
>> I don’t even seem to wear out pads fast and I use organic as sintered does
>> my head in!
>>
>> I go though though the full travel on the suspension now and then, and have
>> ripped tires that weren’t burly enough, mainly when first had the full
>> suspension and it allows you to travel much faster/harder and the lighter
>> weight tires I had being using just didn’t cope!
>>> Another problem is that now people are using direct mount calipers. These
>>> are mounted directly on carbon fiber forks and chainstays and produce
>>> temperatures well above those that melt the resins used in carbon fiber.
>>> Because people so rarely are in these positions they don't know what can
>>> happen. This reminds me of a video that one of the crit guys posted.
>>> There was a guy drafting the camera bike and he pulled out for the final
>>> sprint and as he pulled out and hit the gas, his aero wheel distorted
>>> over about 30 degrees of course crashing him. Without that video, I'll
>>> bet you, he would never have known what cause his crash because the wheel
>>> appeared normal after the crash.
>>>
>> I’d assume that would be a warranty/recall so that I suspect maybe less
>> that the full truth.
>
> I intend to mount SpD MTB pedals on the gravel bike. I found some new
> takeoffs on Ebay so they're coming. I just went down into the garage and
> the tubeless tires are flat again. There doesn't appear to be any leaking
> sealant anywhere around the tires and I seem to remember that some tires
> would absorb the sealant and need almost immediate renewal so that is my
> next move. With them pumped all of the way up the ride was remarkably
> smooth very much smoother than the same size tire with a tube in it. I
> expect the Douglas Vector to ride smother since I installed Latex tubes
> in them as the only tubes I had that had 40 mm fillers. And since the
> largest tires that fit that bike are 25's it will need them.
>
> I was one of the first to start riding off-road on MTB's. I had already
> done a lot of off-road with street bike or what became CX since touring
> bikes had cantilevers and VB-brakes turned up very rapidly since
> cantilevers required so much hand strength to stop you. Remember the
> Bridgestone MB series? It took a whole lot longer than you would expect
> to catch on. But there was a large uptick when hydraulic suspension forks
> showed up not so much because of the suspension I believe as much as
> because that heavy fork held the front end down during hard climbs.
>
> But I used street bikes so much off-road that I could never could quite
> see the point in an MTB and soon returned. Now they are called gravel
> bikes but are what I usually rode. I did have some real CX bikes and with
> 32 mm knobbies on them they rolled quite well on the road. I would do our
> weekly Moraga Ride ( 37 miles and 3700 feet of climbing up to 10%) on
> them and they didn't slow me up at all. Of course I was still in my 60's
> and hadn't started the rather rapid slow down I have gone through.
>
If you the Gravel bike copes and well it’s generally a hint that it’s not
really MTB stuff, some of the trails are simply un rideable on gravel bikes
for most people even with 30mm of suspension and 50mm tires, they simply
can’t cope with the slope or hits like a MTB with 60mm + of tire and at
least 100mm of suspension plus the geometry etc, I have both and they are
both great but very different.

> When I am too old to climb anymore, I will do wind rides and gravel rides
> that simulate most if not all of the effort. I won't quit and I'm only
> glad my cop friend brought me back from my near death experience and I
> intend to torture him with his mistake for the rest of his life.
>

Roger Merriman

On Wednesday, October 27, 2021 at 10:09:31 AM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote:
> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Wednesday, October 27, 2021 at 1:31:46 AM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote:
> >> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> On Monday, October 25, 2021 at 11:41:57 AM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote:
> >>>> John B. <sloc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>> On Sun, 24 Oct 2021 19:37:58 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> >>>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On Sunday, October 24, 2021 at 5:55:00 PM UTC-5, Roger Merriman wrote:
> >>>>>>> John B. <sloc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On Sun, 24 Oct 2021 13:46:35 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> >>>>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> On 10/24/2021 11:07 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> Disks will overheat to the point where the metal becomes pliable...
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Hmm. "Pliable" is not a term normally found in tables of metallic
> >>>>>>>>> properties. How is that defined, exactly? What units are used to measure
> >>>>>>>>> it?
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> ... and there is nothing you can do about that. Shimano has even gone
> >>>>>>>>>> so far as to sandwich two steel plates over an aluminum center to
> >>>>>>>>>> spread the heat and yet they have measured 350 C on descents. What so
> >>>>>>>>>> you suppose that does to the brake pads and hydraulic fluid? But
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> That's pretty impressive. 350 C is seriously hot. Can you give us a link
> >>>>>>>>> describing the details of the bike's descent, the method of temperature
> >>>>>>>>> measurement, etc?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I really wonder about this brake heating as I've descended some rather
> >>>>>>>> long and steep hills with aluminum rims with no apparent heating at
> >>>>>>>> all. Perhaps it is in the technique?
> >>>>>>> Largely I think possibly exasperated by some road bikes being fitted with
> >>>>>>> 140mm rotors in a weight saving effort.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Roger Merriman
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I've always been a bit skeptical of the overheating rims and blowing off
> >>>>>> tires myth. I've toured on a loaded touring bike in the Swiss Alp,
> >>>>>> Italian Dolomites, and Colorado Rockies. Multi, multi mile descents.
> >>>>>> 50-60 mph easily achieved. I would always brake hard and slow down a
> >>>>>> lot. And then coast back up to high speed. Repeat. Because I was
> >>>>>> aware of the overheating rims myth, I never ever rode the brakes
> >>>>>> constantly. On hard, then off to let them cool. If that was even needed.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I once did a sort of test on rim heating. First time down the mountain
> >>>>> I rode the brakes nearly all the way down and stopped and felt of the
> >>>>> rims. Yes! Hot! then I did a repeat run braking hard to almost a
> >>>>> walking speed then off the brake and coasted and braked hard, etc.
> >>>>> Felt the rims and not hot at all.
> >>>> One of my MTB descents is wet rocky and very steep, you can hear how hot
> >>>> the brakes get due to the water boiling off the rotors!
> >>>>
> >>>> It’s about the only one though and the brakes don’t seem to mind ie fade
> >>>> they just get hot!
> >>>
> >>> I really don't understand this. Although the off-road stuff I was riding
> >>> was REALLY extreme and I was fairly careful with the brakes, I warped a
> >>> disk myself. How can anyone ride off-road crash and burn levels of MTB
> >>> and not have disk warping? In that video I sited the expansion and
> >>> contraction of the Shimano sandwich disks were causing them to fracture
> >>> on the sides. I think they even showed a disk with a chunk broken out of
> >>> it. It isn't as if this is some unknown problem. That is why Shimano is
> >>> attempting to find a means of preventing it.
> >>>
> >> I’ve yet to but my background is MTB I’m a MTBer who likes road bikes well
> >> Gravel bikes. So I’m quite light on the bike, after all I grew up with
> >> bikes with no suspension and primitive braking at best!
> >>
> >> I don’t even seem to wear out pads fast and I use organic as sintered does
> >> my head in!
> >>
> >> I go though though the full travel on the suspension now and then, and have
> >> ripped tires that weren’t burly enough, mainly when first had the full
> >> suspension and it allows you to travel much faster/harder and the lighter
> >> weight tires I had being using just didn’t cope!
> >>> Another problem is that now people are using direct mount calipers. These
> >>> are mounted directly on carbon fiber forks and chainstays and produce
> >>> temperatures well above those that melt the resins used in carbon fiber.
> >>> Because people so rarely are in these positions they don't know what can
> >>> happen. This reminds me of a video that one of the crit guys posted.
> >>> There was a guy drafting the camera bike and he pulled out for the final
> >>> sprint and as he pulled out and hit the gas, his aero wheel distorted
> >>> over about 30 degrees of course crashing him. Without that video, I'll
> >>> bet you, he would never have known what cause his crash because the wheel
> >>> appeared normal after the crash.
> >>>
> >> I’d assume that would be a warranty/recall so that I suspect maybe less
> >> that the full truth.
> >
> > I intend to mount SpD MTB pedals on the gravel bike. I found some new
> > takeoffs on Ebay so they're coming. I just went down into the garage and
> > the tubeless tires are flat again. There doesn't appear to be any leaking
> > sealant anywhere around the tires and I seem to remember that some tires
> > would absorb the sealant and need almost immediate renewal so that is my
> > next move. With them pumped all of the way up the ride was remarkably
> > smooth very much smoother than the same size tire with a tube in it. I
> > expect the Douglas Vector to ride smother since I installed Latex tubes
> > in them as the only tubes I had that had 40 mm fillers. And since the
> > largest tires that fit that bike are 25's it will need them.
> >
> > I was one of the first to start riding off-road on MTB's. I had already
> > done a lot of off-road with street bike or what became CX since touring
> > bikes had cantilevers and VB-brakes turned up very rapidly since
> > cantilevers required so much hand strength to stop you. Remember the
> > Bridgestone MB series? It took a whole lot longer than you would expect
> > to catch on. But there was a large uptick when hydraulic suspension forks
> > showed up not so much because of the suspension I believe as much as
> > because that heavy fork held the front end down during hard climbs.
> >
> > But I used street bikes so much off-road that I could never could quite
> > see the point in an MTB and soon returned. Now they are called gravel
> > bikes but are what I usually rode. I did have some real CX bikes and with
> > 32 mm knobbies on them they rolled quite well on the road. I would do our
> > weekly Moraga Ride ( 37 miles and 3700 feet of climbing up to 10%) on
> > them and they didn't slow me up at all. Of course I was still in my 60's
> > and hadn't started the rather rapid slow down I have gone through.
> >
> If you the Gravel bike copes and well it’s generally a hint that it’s not
> really MTB stuff, some of the trails are simply un rideable on gravel bikes
> for most people even with 30mm of suspension and 50mm tires, they simply
> can’t cope with the slope or hits like a MTB with 60mm + of tire and at
> least 100mm of suspension plus the geometry etc, I have both and they are
> both great but very different.
> > When I am too old to climb anymore, I will do wind rides and gravel rides
> > that simulate most if not all of the effort. I won't quit and I'm only
> > glad my cop friend brought me back from my near death experience and I
> > intend to torture him with his mistake for the rest of his life.
> >
> Roger Merriman
The only stuff that is un-rideable on anything but a mountain bike are areas you purposely have to chose and almost always even a hiker would not take that route. It is one thing saying that you can ride an MTB anywhere and then forcing yourself to ride where a better pathway exists. With care I can ascend and descent 25% trails and doing that on a fully suspended MTB simply makes the ruts less needing of attention.

Click here to read the complete article

On Tuesday, October 26, 2021 at 6:52:15 PM UTC-7, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, October 26, 2021 at 9:23:07 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Monday, October 25, 2021 at 5:08:06 PM UTC-7, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > On Monday, October 25, 2021 at 10:31:56 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > On Sunday, October 24, 2021 at 12:04:07 PM UTC-7, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > > > On Sunday, October 24, 2021 at 1:34:39 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > On Sunday, October 24, 2021 at 11:29:43 AM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > > > > On Sunday, October 24, 2021 at 10:46:41 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > > > > > > > On 10/24/2021 11:07 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > > > > > > Disks will overheat to the point where the metal becomes pliable...
> > > > > > > > > Hmm. "Pliable" is not a term normally found in tables of metallic
> > > > > > > > properties. How is that defined, exactly? What units are used to measure
> > > > > > > > it?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > ... and there is nothing you can do about that. Shimano has even gone so far as to sandwich two steel plates over an aluminum center to spread the heat and yet they have measured 350 C on descents. What so you suppose that does to the brake pads and hydraulic fluid? Bu
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > That's pretty impressive. 350 C is seriously hot. Can you give us a link
> > > > > > > > describing the details of the bike's descent, the method of temperature
> > > > > > > > measurement,
> > > > > > > They simulated the downhill constant braking on a rolling resistance drum and used that really modern technology called infrared photography. This required multimillions of dollars as I'm sure you would agree. Of course, the really hard part would be knowing what color would be what temperature. You might be forced to open a physics book. Or if they really wanted to go out on a limb, they could pay $80 for an over-the-counter pyrometer and take direct temperature readings in real time.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > For the life of me I simply cannot tell why you feel the need to prove to everyone that as an engineer you are totally incompetent. You have been doing this repeatedly and I have simply figured it was you attempting to make me write another thesis. But it has become so plain that a child could tell that you know NOTHING about engineering.
> > > > > > Frank, I am not saying this merely as some sort of baseless insult. I think that it is time for you to face the fact that if you ever had any engineering knowledge that time has long ago passed. You sound like Russell who can't do simple math telling us that he is an accountant.
> > > > > But Tommy boy, I have shown you lots and lots of simple math that plainly and clearly show the stock market went up more under Obama than under Trump. Yet you, no high school diploma, cannot understand that math. I encourage you to show us the stock market numbers on Obama's two inaugurations and on Trump's inauguration and the numbers on their leaving office. Then we can all do the simple math. Please present the FACTS Tommy. FACTS. FACTS.
> > > > >
> > > > > When you present these stock numbers, please present broad based numbers representing the whole stock market. Such as the Vanguard Total stock market, the S&P 500. Dow Jones, Russell 2000, Nasdaq, QQQ. Something that is a lot of companies. Not one or two companies that went up or down. Broad based, diverse.
> > > > >
> > > > > Me and everyone else are waiting for your factual numbers Tommy boy.
> > > > I showed you the numbers of the market during Obama and Trump and you couldn't dispute them but then you turned right around and said that people made money during Obama. Plainly you have something missing if you couldn't tell the difference between attempting to recover from the Great Recession and " making money". No one with any investments save the lucky few who predicted the wild growth of Google and Facebook and Amazon made any money. Why did you do this when it was so plainly not true? That FINAL growth of 11% was more than absorbed by the deflation of the dollar from Obama's printing money for his quantitative easing. Inventing your own universe like Scharf does (and continues to do so sadly that even Frank has to call him out) is not a sign of intelligence. As an accountant you must be able to have seen what happened to the market. Either that or it was of no interest to you because you had no investments to lose and no bank savings to have deflated out of existence.
> > >
> > > You are STUPID Tommy boy. Anyway...
> > >
> > > Below is a post I made in another thread. I have edited it a bit.
> > >
> > >
> > > "I am going to use the S&P 500 index as the Market. It is only the 500 biggest market capitalization companies, but it is a broad representation of all areas of the economy since the 500 biggest companies do everything on earth.
> > >
> > > Below is a table, list, columns, showing the S&P 500 index on January 20 or the prior closing day if the 20th is a weekend. Year first, then S&P 500 index are the two columns. Easy to figure out the annual return in the S&P 500 each year.
> > > 2009 805.22
> > > 2010 1138.04
> > > 2011 1280.26
> > > 2012 1315.38
> > > 2013 1485.98
> > > 2014 1838.7
> > > 2015 2022.55
> > > 2016 1859.33
> > > 2017 2271.31
> > >
> > > S&P 500 under golden calf Trump. All are January 20 prices in the year listed.
> > > 2017 2271.31
> > > 2018 2810.3
> > > 2019 2670.71
> > > 2020 3329.62
> > > 2021 3851.85"
> > >
> > >
> > > The S&P 500 reached an all time high of 1565.15 on October 9, 2007.
> > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closing_milestones_of_the_S%26P_500
> > >
> > > The S&P 500 reached that high again on March 28, 2013 at 1569.19. This happened during Obama's second term as president.
> > >
> > > During Obama's first term the S&P 500 went from 805.22 to 1485.98, GAIN of 84.54% since he took office. During Obama's second term the S&P 500 went from 1485.98 to 2271.31, GAIN of 52.85%. During Trump's one term as president the S&P 500 went from 2271.31 to 3851.85, GAIN of 69.59%.
> > >
> > > Now I will throw the scoundrel DOG Tommy boy a bone. It took Obama four years and two plus months in office to get the S&P 500 back to the high reached under Bush2. Do you understand that Tommy boy? The high for the S&P 500 was achieved by BUSH2 back in October 9, 2007. BUSH2 the REPUBLICAN. Obama the Democrat did not take office until almost 16 months later. The S&P 500 was at a high months before the first primary in Iowa was even held in January 2008. I'm guessing Obama had declared himself running for president by October 2007. But BUSH2 was president when the S&P 500 reached its high on October 9, 2007. And it took until March 28, 2013 before Obama got the S&P 500 to close that high again. Four plus years later. Obama had to overcome a lot of destruction to the economy that Bush2 and Republicans did before he took office. And it took until his second term to overcome their destruction.
> > >
> > > You seem fascinated with this high and low of the markets. You seem to think everyone, or you anyway, can buy at the low and sell at the high. And you think this is achievable every single day too. Maybe for you the greatest financial genius in all of history, you, can do this. But everyone else sees high and lows and that is it. For instance, all of the stocks I own were at a high today. But I did not sell at the high today. No, I kept them and they all finished lower than the daily highs. So by your F-cked up nonsense, I lost money today. But no, I gained from the closing yesterday to the closing today. No one on earth can buy and sell every day at the highs and lows every day. You would be the richest person on earth if you could do that every day.
>
> > Why do you insist on showing your ignorance. According to Russy, there was no recession at all let alone a Great Recession.
> Apologies again for responding again to this one post from Tommy. It had so many crazy arse comments I lost track of what to castigate him about. Yes Tommy boy there was a Great Recession. They had to think up a new name after the Great Depression of the 1930s. So Great Recession. Maybe they will call the next big huge enormous downfall the Great Catastrophe. Anyway, the Great Recession officially occurred December 2007 to June 2009. Bush2 was president from December 2007 to January 20, 2009. Obama took over as president on January 20, 2009 and was still president when he ended the great Recession in June 2009. Started by the Republicans, ended by the Democrats. Typical.
>
> This is what Google displayed when I did a search on "great recession".
> The Great Recession, one of the worst economic declines in US history, officially lasted from December 2007 to June 2009. The collapse of the housing market — fueled by low interest rates, easy credit, insufficient regulation, and toxic subprime mortgages — led to the economic crisis.
>
> Some more links for the great Recession.
> https://www.businessinsider.com/what-caused-the-great-recession#:~:text=The%20Great%20Recession%2C%20one%20of,led%20to%20the%20economic%20crisis..
>
> https://www.investopedia.com/terms/g/great-recession.asp
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Recession
>
> https://www.federalreservehistory.org/essays/great-recession-of-200709
> Well, as it turns out, the Standard and Poor's 500 are the largest companies in the US and in some cases the world and those least likely to have much change in their values. These are the companies that people who do not wish to make money but only want a place to safely stash their money so that it pays slightly more than bank rates invests. This is where Billionaires invest, not the common investor.
> >
> > Don't you find it interesting that Russy had to work very hard to show that large companies even, did poorly under Obama?
> >
> > On the other hand the Dow Jones Industrial Average was 13,338.23 on January 2, 2008 and 7449.38 on November 21st? Not to mention that when the Democrat Congress took over in 2006 the Dow was 1,000 points higher. This was a fall of 45%. As for my investments, I had lost quite a bit of money under the Democrat Congress but under Obama directly my losses almost perfectly tracked Obama's economic destuction with a 50% loss. Russy has no idea of how to calculate losses or gains and yet he pretends to be an accountant. I find that impossible to believe. Either than or he has an employer that is a twit.
> >
> > All of this is nothing more than the Democrats trying to put a fright into you so that they can save you from it., This is what covid-19 - the nondisease disease - is and Climate Change where the end of the world is always move up another 10 years as the end of the world approaches.
> >
> > This is the entire world of Russy and Scharf. Too bad the world won't cooperate with their stupidity.

Click here to read the complete article

On Wednesday, October 27, 2021 at 4:36:42 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, October 26, 2021 at 6:52:15 PM UTC-7, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > On Tuesday, October 26, 2021 at 9:23:07 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Monday, October 25, 2021 at 5:08:06 PM UTC-7, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > > On Monday, October 25, 2021 at 10:31:56 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > On Sunday, October 24, 2021 at 12:04:07 PM UTC-7, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > > > > On Sunday, October 24, 2021 at 1:34:39 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > On Sunday, October 24, 2021 at 11:29:43 AM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Sunday, October 24, 2021 at 10:46:41 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On 10/24/2021 11:07 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > Disks will overheat to the point where the metal becomes pliable...
> > > > > > > > > > Hmm. "Pliable" is not a term normally found in tables of metallic
> > > > > > > > > properties. How is that defined, exactly? What units are used to measure
> > > > > > > > > it?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > ... and there is nothing you can do about that. Shimano has even gone so far as to sandwich two steel plates over an aluminum center to spread the heat and yet they have measured 350 C on descents. What so you suppose that does to the brake pads and hydraulic fluid? Bu
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > That's pretty impressive. 350 C is seriously hot. Can you give us a link
> > > > > > > > > describing the details of the bike's descent, the method of temperature
> > > > > > > > > measurement,
> > > > > > > > They simulated the downhill constant braking on a rolling resistance drum and used that really modern technology called infrared photography. This required multimillions of dollars as I'm sure you would agree. Of course, the really hard part would be knowing what color would be what temperature. You might be forced to open a physics book. Or if they really wanted to go out on a limb, they could pay $80 for an over-the-counter pyrometer and take direct temperature readings in real time.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > For the life of me I simply cannot tell why you feel the need to prove to everyone that as an engineer you are totally incompetent. You have been doing this repeatedly and I have simply figured it was you attempting to make me write another thesis. But it has become so plain that a child could tell that you know NOTHING about engineering.
> > > > > > > Frank, I am not saying this merely as some sort of baseless insult. I think that it is time for you to face the fact that if you ever had any engineering knowledge that time has long ago passed. You sound like Russell who can't do simple math telling us that he is an accountant.
> > > > > > But Tommy boy, I have shown you lots and lots of simple math that plainly and clearly show the stock market went up more under Obama than under Trump. Yet you, no high school diploma, cannot understand that math. I encourage you to show us the stock market numbers on Obama's two inaugurations and on Trump's inauguration and the numbers on their leaving office. Then we can all do the simple math. Please present the FACTS Tommy. FACTS. FACTS.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > When you present these stock numbers, please present broad based numbers representing the whole stock market. Such as the Vanguard Total stock market, the S&P 500. Dow Jones, Russell 2000, Nasdaq, QQQ. Something that is a lot of companies. Not one or two companies that went up or down. Broad based, diverse.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Me and everyone else are waiting for your factual numbers Tommy boy.
> > > > > I showed you the numbers of the market during Obama and Trump and you couldn't dispute them but then you turned right around and said that people made money during Obama. Plainly you have something missing if you couldn't tell the difference between attempting to recover from the Great Recession and " making money". No one with any investments save the lucky few who predicted the wild growth of Google and Facebook and Amazon made any money. Why did you do this when it was so plainly not true? That FINAL growth of 11% was more than absorbed by the deflation of the dollar from Obama's printing money for his quantitative easing. Inventing your own universe like Scharf does (and continues to do so sadly that even Frank has to call him out) is not a sign of intelligence. As an accountant you must be able to have seen what happened to the market. Either that or it was of no interest to you because you had no investments to lose and no bank savings to have deflated out of existence.
> > > >
> > > > You are STUPID Tommy boy. Anyway...
> > > >
> > > > Below is a post I made in another thread. I have edited it a bit.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "I am going to use the S&P 500 index as the Market. It is only the 500 biggest market capitalization companies, but it is a broad representation of all areas of the economy since the 500 biggest companies do everything on earth.
> > > >
> > > > Below is a table, list, columns, showing the S&P 500 index on January 20 or the prior closing day if the 20th is a weekend. Year first, then S&P 500 index are the two columns. Easy to figure out the annual return in the S&P 500 each year.
> > > > 2009 805.22
> > > > 2010 1138.04
> > > > 2011 1280.26
> > > > 2012 1315.38
> > > > 2013 1485.98
> > > > 2014 1838.7
> > > > 2015 2022.55
> > > > 2016 1859.33
> > > > 2017 2271.31
> > > >
> > > > S&P 500 under golden calf Trump. All are January 20 prices in the year listed.
> > > > 2017 2271.31
> > > > 2018 2810.3
> > > > 2019 2670.71
> > > > 2020 3329.62
> > > > 2021 3851.85"
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > The S&P 500 reached an all time high of 1565.15 on October 9, 2007.
> > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closing_milestones_of_the_S%26P_500
> > > >
> > > > The S&P 500 reached that high again on March 28, 2013 at 1569.19. This happened during Obama's second term as president.
> > > >
> > > > During Obama's first term the S&P 500 went from 805.22 to 1485.98, GAIN of 84.54% since he took office. During Obama's second term the S&P 500 went from 1485.98 to 2271.31, GAIN of 52.85%. During Trump's one term as president the S&P 500 went from 2271.31 to 3851.85, GAIN of 69.59%.
> > > >
> > > > Now I will throw the scoundrel DOG Tommy boy a bone. It took Obama four years and two plus months in office to get the S&P 500 back to the high reached under Bush2. Do you understand that Tommy boy? The high for the S&P 500 was achieved by BUSH2 back in October 9, 2007. BUSH2 the REPUBLICAN. Obama the Democrat did not take office until almost 16 months later. The S&P 500 was at a high months before the first primary in Iowa was even held in January 2008. I'm guessing Obama had declared himself running for president by October 2007. But BUSH2 was president when the S&P 500 reached its high on October 9, 2007. And it took until March 28, 2013 before Obama got the S&P 500 to close that high again. Four plus years later. Obama had to overcome a lot of destruction to the economy that Bush2 and Republicans did before he took office. And it took until his second term to overcome their destruction.
> > > >
> > > > You seem fascinated with this high and low of the markets. You seem to think everyone, or you anyway, can buy at the low and sell at the high. And you think this is achievable every single day too. Maybe for you the greatest financial genius in all of history, you, can do this. But everyone else sees high and lows and that is it. For instance, all of the stocks I own were at a high today. But I did not sell at the high today. No, I kept them and they all finished lower than the daily highs. So by your F-cked up nonsense, I lost money today. But no, I gained from the closing yesterday to the closing today. No one on earth can buy and sell every day at the highs and lows every day. You would be the richest person on earth if you could do that every day.
> >
> > > Why do you insist on showing your ignorance. According to Russy, there was no recession at all let alone a Great Recession.
> > Apologies again for responding again to this one post from Tommy. It had so many crazy arse comments I lost track of what to castigate him about. Yes Tommy boy there was a Great Recession. They had to think up a new name after the Great Depression of the 1930s. So Great Recession. Maybe they will call the next big huge enormous downfall the Great Catastrophe. Anyway, the Great Recession officially occurred December 2007 to June 2009. Bush2 was president from December 2007 to January 20, 2009. Obama took over as president on January 20, 2009 and was still president when he ended the great Recession in June 2009. Started by the Republicans, ended by the Democrats. Typical.
> >
> > This is what Google displayed when I did a search on "great recession".
> > The Great Recession, one of the worst economic declines in US history, officially lasted from December 2007 to June 2009. The collapse of the housing market — fueled by low interest rates, easy credit, insufficient regulation, and toxic subprime mortgages — led to the economic crisis.
> >
> > Some more links for the great Recession.
> > https://www.businessinsider.com/what-caused-the-great-recession#:~:text=The%20Great%20Recession%2C%20one%20of,led%20to%20the%20economic%20crisis..
> >
> > https://www.investopedia.com/terms/g/great-recession.asp
> >
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Recession
> >
> > https://www.federalreservehistory.org/essays/great-recession-of-200709
> > Well, as it turns out, the Standard and Poor's 500 are the largest companies in the US and in some cases the world and those least likely to have much change in their values. These are the companies that people who do not wish to make money but only want a place to safely stash their money so that it pays slightly more than bank rates invests. This is where Billionaires invest, not the common investor.
> > >
> > > Don't you find it interesting that Russy had to work very hard to show that large companies even, did poorly under Obama?
> > >
> > > On the other hand the Dow Jones Industrial Average was 13,338.23 on January 2, 2008 and 7449.38 on November 21st? Not to mention that when the Democrat Congress took over in 2006 the Dow was 1,000 points higher. This was a fall of 45%. As for my investments, I had lost quite a bit of money under the Democrat Congress but under Obama directly my losses almost perfectly tracked Obama's economic destuction with a 50% loss. Russy has no idea of how to calculate losses or gains and yet he pretends to be an accountant. I find that impossible to believe. Either than or he has an employer that is a twit.
> > >
> > > All of this is nothing more than the Democrats trying to put a fright into you so that they can save you from it., This is what covid-19 - the nondisease disease - is and Climate Change where the end of the world is always move up another 10 years as the end of the world approaches.
> > >
> > > This is the entire world of Russy and Scharf. Too bad the world won't cooperate with their stupidity.
> Every time you post I get another laugh. For instance. I actually went out and looked at the historic S&P 500. Before Obama was elected the S&P was at 1530. Upon Obama's election it fell to 735. For someone like you who is clumsy with numbers that is a 52% drop. From that point it is pretty difficult to go any way but up. In December of 2018 when Obama left office the S&P was at 2673 which means that the large business investor made only 1000 points and every inch of the way they LOST money which made that "gain" a loss with a 14.2%. inflation. Trump had a 5.6% inflation but by the end of his term it had slowed to 4%, A second term with his policies would have brought it to a halt.
>
> Tell me, do you really think that your lies aren't going to be discovered and thrown right back in your face?

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On Wednesday, October 27, 2021 at 9:08:19 PM UTC-7, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 27, 2021 at 4:36:42 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Tuesday, October 26, 2021 at 6:52:15 PM UTC-7, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, October 26, 2021 at 9:23:07 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > On Monday, October 25, 2021 at 5:08:06 PM UTC-7, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > > > On Monday, October 25, 2021 at 10:31:56 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > On Sunday, October 24, 2021 at 12:04:07 PM UTC-7, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > > > > > On Sunday, October 24, 2021 at 1:34:39 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Sunday, October 24, 2021 at 11:29:43 AM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On Sunday, October 24, 2021 at 10:46:41 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > On 10/24/2021 11:07 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > Disks will overheat to the point where the metal becomes pliable...
> > > > > > > > > > > Hmm. "Pliable" is not a term normally found in tables of metallic
> > > > > > > > > > properties. How is that defined, exactly? What units are used to measure
> > > > > > > > > > it?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > ... and there is nothing you can do about that. Shimano has even gone so far as to sandwich two steel plates over an aluminum center to spread the heat and yet they have measured 350 C on descents. What so you suppose that does to the brake pads and hydraulic fluid? Bu
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > That's pretty impressive. 350 C is seriously hot. Can you give us a link
> > > > > > > > > > describing the details of the bike's descent, the method of temperature
> > > > > > > > > > measurement,
> > > > > > > > > They simulated the downhill constant braking on a rolling resistance drum and used that really modern technology called infrared photography. This required multimillions of dollars as I'm sure you would agree. Of course, the really hard part would be knowing what color would be what temperature. You might be forced to open a physics book. Or if they really wanted to go out on a limb, they could pay $80 for an over-the-counter pyrometer and take direct temperature readings in real time.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > For the life of me I simply cannot tell why you feel the need to prove to everyone that as an engineer you are totally incompetent. You have been doing this repeatedly and I have simply figured it was you attempting to make me write another thesis. But it has become so plain that a child could tell that you know NOTHING about engineering.
> > > > > > > > Frank, I am not saying this merely as some sort of baseless insult. I think that it is time for you to face the fact that if you ever had any engineering knowledge that time has long ago passed. You sound like Russell who can't do simple math telling us that he is an accountant.
> > > > > > > But Tommy boy, I have shown you lots and lots of simple math that plainly and clearly show the stock market went up more under Obama than under Trump. Yet you, no high school diploma, cannot understand that math.. I encourage you to show us the stock market numbers on Obama's two inaugurations and on Trump's inauguration and the numbers on their leaving office.. Then we can all do the simple math. Please present the FACTS Tommy. FACTS.. FACTS.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > When you present these stock numbers, please present broad based numbers representing the whole stock market. Such as the Vanguard Total stock market, the S&P 500. Dow Jones, Russell 2000, Nasdaq, QQQ. Something that is a lot of companies. Not one or two companies that went up or down. Broad based, diverse.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Me and everyone else are waiting for your factual numbers Tommy boy.
> > > > > > I showed you the numbers of the market during Obama and Trump and you couldn't dispute them but then you turned right around and said that people made money during Obama. Plainly you have something missing if you couldn't tell the difference between attempting to recover from the Great Recession and " making money". No one with any investments save the lucky few who predicted the wild growth of Google and Facebook and Amazon made any money. Why did you do this when it was so plainly not true? That FINAL growth of 11% was more than absorbed by the deflation of the dollar from Obama's printing money for his quantitative easing. Inventing your own universe like Scharf does (and continues to do so sadly that even Frank has to call him out) is not a sign of intelligence. As an accountant you must be able to have seen what happened to the market. Either that or it was of no interest to you because you had no investments to lose and no bank savings to have deflated out of existence.
> > > > >
> > > > > You are STUPID Tommy boy. Anyway...
> > > > >
> > > > > Below is a post I made in another thread. I have edited it a bit.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "I am going to use the S&P 500 index as the Market. It is only the 500 biggest market capitalization companies, but it is a broad representation of all areas of the economy since the 500 biggest companies do everything on earth.
> > > > >
> > > > > Below is a table, list, columns, showing the S&P 500 index on January 20 or the prior closing day if the 20th is a weekend. Year first, then S&P 500 index are the two columns. Easy to figure out the annual return in the S&P 500 each year.
> > > > > 2009 805.22
> > > > > 2010 1138.04
> > > > > 2011 1280.26
> > > > > 2012 1315.38
> > > > > 2013 1485.98
> > > > > 2014 1838.7
> > > > > 2015 2022.55
> > > > > 2016 1859.33
> > > > > 2017 2271.31
> > > > >
> > > > > S&P 500 under golden calf Trump. All are January 20 prices in the year listed.
> > > > > 2017 2271.31
> > > > > 2018 2810.3
> > > > > 2019 2670.71
> > > > > 2020 3329.62
> > > > > 2021 3851.85"
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > The S&P 500 reached an all time high of 1565.15 on October 9, 2007.
> > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closing_milestones_of_the_S%26P_500
> > > > >
> > > > > The S&P 500 reached that high again on March 28, 2013 at 1569.19. This happened during Obama's second term as president.
> > > > >
> > > > > During Obama's first term the S&P 500 went from 805.22 to 1485.98, GAIN of 84.54% since he took office. During Obama's second term the S&P 500 went from 1485.98 to 2271.31, GAIN of 52.85%. During Trump's one term as president the S&P 500 went from 2271.31 to 3851.85, GAIN of 69.59%.
> > > > >
> > > > > Now I will throw the scoundrel DOG Tommy boy a bone. It took Obama four years and two plus months in office to get the S&P 500 back to the high reached under Bush2. Do you understand that Tommy boy? The high for the S&P 500 was achieved by BUSH2 back in October 9, 2007. BUSH2 the REPUBLICAN. Obama the Democrat did not take office until almost 16 months later. The S&P 500 was at a high months before the first primary in Iowa was even held in January 2008. I'm guessing Obama had declared himself running for president by October 2007. But BUSH2 was president when the S&P 500 reached its high on October 9, 2007. And it took until March 28, 2013 before Obama got the S&P 500 to close that high again. Four plus years later. Obama had to overcome a lot of destruction to the economy that Bush2 and Republicans did before he took office. And it took until his second term to overcome their destruction.
> > > > >
> > > > > You seem fascinated with this high and low of the markets. You seem to think everyone, or you anyway, can buy at the low and sell at the high. And you think this is achievable every single day too. Maybe for you the greatest financial genius in all of history, you, can do this. But everyone else sees high and lows and that is it. For instance, all of the stocks I own were at a high today. But I did not sell at the high today. No, I kept them and they all finished lower than the daily highs. So by your F-cked up nonsense, I lost money today. But no, I gained from the closing yesterday to the closing today. No one on earth can buy and sell every day at the highs and lows every day. You would be the richest person on earth if you could do that every day.
> > >
> > > > Why do you insist on showing your ignorance. According to Russy, there was no recession at all let alone a Great Recession.
> > > Apologies again for responding again to this one post from Tommy. It had so many crazy arse comments I lost track of what to castigate him about.. Yes Tommy boy there was a Great Recession. They had to think up a new name after the Great Depression of the 1930s. So Great Recession. Maybe they will call the next big huge enormous downfall the Great Catastrophe. Anyway, the Great Recession officially occurred December 2007 to June 2009. Bush2 was president from December 2007 to January 20, 2009. Obama took over as president on January 20, 2009 and was still president when he ended the great Recession in June 2009. Started by the Republicans, ended by the Democrats.. Typical.
> > >
> > > This is what Google displayed when I did a search on "great recession".
> > > The Great Recession, one of the worst economic declines in US history, officially lasted from December 2007 to June 2009. The collapse of the housing market — fueled by low interest rates, easy credit, insufficient regulation, and toxic subprime mortgages — led to the economic crisis.
> > >
> > > Some more links for the great Recession.
> > > https://www.businessinsider.com/what-caused-the-great-recession#:~:text=The%20Great%20Recession%2C%20one%20of,led%20to%20the%20economic%20crisis.
> > >
> > > https://www.investopedia.com/terms/g/great-recession.asp
> > >
> > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Recession
> > >
> > > https://www.federalreservehistory.org/essays/great-recession-of-200709
> > > Well, as it turns out, the Standard and Poor's 500 are the largest companies in the US and in some cases the world and those least likely to have much change in their values. These are the companies that people who do not wish to make money but only want a place to safely stash their money so that it pays slightly more than bank rates invests. This is where Billionaires invest, not the common investor.
> > > >
> > > > Don't you find it interesting that Russy had to work very hard to show that large companies even, did poorly under Obama?
> > > >
> > > > On the other hand the Dow Jones Industrial Average was 13,338.23 on January 2, 2008 and 7449.38 on November 21st? Not to mention that when the Democrat Congress took over in 2006 the Dow was 1,000 points higher. This was a fall of 45%. As for my investments, I had lost quite a bit of money under the Democrat Congress but under Obama directly my losses almost perfectly tracked Obama's economic destuction with a 50% loss. Russy has no idea of how to calculate losses or gains and yet he pretends to be an accountant.. I find that impossible to believe. Either than or he has an employer that is a twit.
> > > >
> > > > All of this is nothing more than the Democrats trying to put a fright into you so that they can save you from it., This is what covid-19 - the nondisease disease - is and Climate Change where the end of the world is always move up another 10 years as the end of the world approaches.
> > > >
> > > > This is the entire world of Russy and Scharf. Too bad the world won't cooperate with their stupidity.
> > Every time you post I get another laugh. For instance. I actually went out and looked at the historic S&P 500. Before Obama was elected the S&P was at 1530. Upon Obama's election it fell to 735. For someone like you who is clumsy with numbers that is a 52% drop. From that point it is pretty difficult to go any way but up. In December of 2018 when Obama left office the S&P was at 2673 which means that the large business investor made only 1000 points and every inch of the way they LOST money which made that "gain" a loss with a 14.2%. inflation. Trump had a 5.6% inflation but by the end of his term it had slowed to 4%, A second term with his policies would have brought it to a halt.
> >
> > Tell me, do you really think that your lies aren't going to be discovered and thrown right back in your face?
> Wow Tommy boy. Your LIES are getting to rival your idol Trumpy.
>
> I wrote this in a prior post to this thread. Facts.
> "The S&P 500 reached an all time high of 1565.15 on October 9, 2007."
> Bush2 was president when this occurred and would be president for another 13 months before Obama was elected president the first time in November 2008. You claim the S&P 500 was about 735 when Obama was elected in November 2008. I did not check this but maybe its true. Hard to tell with you as a source. But after Obama was elected the country saw hope with him as the upcoming president and rallied to 805.22 on January 20, 2009 when Obama was first inaugurated. Small gain of about 10% with the optimism of having him as president. Took 2.5 months for this increase in the S&P 500. OK. From your 735 to 805.22.
>
> When Obama was elected the S&P 500 was 805.22. When he left 8 years later it was 2271.31. 182% increase attributable all to Obama. You claim one must always judge things against historical highs. For some reason. So from the high of 1565.15 on October 9, 2007 to the 2271.31 on January 20, 2017, when Obama left office, the S&P 500 gained 706.16 points total. 45.12% GAIN from the prior S&P 500 high on Oct 9, 2007 to Jan 20, 2017.
>
> https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/USA/united-states/inflation-rate-cpi
> The ab==ove link shows the inflation rate every year. You can easily download a spreadsheet showing the inflation rate each year. During Obama's eight years in office 2009-2016, the total inflation adds up to 10.9778%. Total. 1.37% per year divided by eight. I'm not sure with inflation if its additive each year or is you have to multiply it year after year. Compound. But Obama's total inflation for his eight years was 10.9778%. Now for Trumpy's four years in office, the total inflation was 7.6185%. 2017 was 2.13%. 2018 was 2.44%. 2019 was 1.81%. 2020 was 1.23%. Trump averaged 1.9% inflation each year if you divide the 7.6185% by four. Obama's average annual inflation rate was much lower than Trump's annual inflation rate. Another Obama win. See the above link I posted for annual inflation rates.
>
> So again Tommy boy is a LIAR. Obama was not 14.2% as you LIE. It was only 10.9778%. And Trump's was not 5.6% as you LIE. It was 7.6185%. LIAR LIAR Tommy boy, pants on fire.
>
> Tommy boy, now might be the time I should recommend you stop responding to my FACTS, with your LIES, and run away and hide your head in a toilet.
You didn't check because it didn't fit you leftist propaganda and you haven't any idea of what investing is and only want to argue. PLEASE talk like this around normal people so that someone will snap that pencil neck of yours and put you in a wheelchair for the rest of your life where you can discover just what the Democrats really think of people. You are a radical leftist for one reason only - you are a moron that has nothing because you ARE nothing and you actually believe that the Democrats would give you something despite 100 years of history showing differently.

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Tom Kunich <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 27, 2021 at 10:09:31 AM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, October 27, 2021 at 1:31:46 AM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Monday, October 25, 2021 at 11:41:57 AM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>>>> John B. <sloc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sun, 24 Oct 2021 19:37:58 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>>>>>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Sunday, October 24, 2021 at 5:55:00 PM UTC-5, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>>>>>>> John B. <sloc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 24 Oct 2021 13:46:35 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 10/24/2021 11:07 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Disks will overheat to the point where the metal becomes pliable...
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Hmm. "Pliable" is not a term normally found in tables of metallic
>>>>>>>>>>> properties. How is that defined, exactly? What units are used to measure
>>>>>>>>>>> it?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> ... and there is nothing you can do about that. Shimano has even gone
>>>>>>>>>>>> so far as to sandwich two steel plates over an aluminum center to
>>>>>>>>>>>> spread the heat and yet they have measured 350 C on descents. What so
>>>>>>>>>>>> you suppose that does to the brake pads and hydraulic fluid? But
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> That's pretty impressive. 350 C is seriously hot. Can you give us a link
>>>>>>>>>>> describing the details of the bike's descent, the method of temperature
>>>>>>>>>>> measurement, etc?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I really wonder about this brake heating as I've descended some rather
>>>>>>>>>> long and steep hills with aluminum rims with no apparent heating at
>>>>>>>>>> all. Perhaps it is in the technique?
>>>>>>>>> Largely I think possibly exasperated by some road bikes being fitted with
>>>>>>>>> 140mm rotors in a weight saving effort.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I've always been a bit skeptical of the overheating rims and blowing off
>>>>>>>> tires myth. I've toured on a loaded touring bike in the Swiss Alp,
>>>>>>>> Italian Dolomites, and Colorado Rockies. Multi, multi mile descents.
>>>>>>>> 50-60 mph easily achieved. I would always brake hard and slow down a
>>>>>>>> lot. And then coast back up to high speed. Repeat. Because I was
>>>>>>>> aware of the overheating rims myth, I never ever rode the brakes
>>>>>>>> constantly. On hard, then off to let them cool. If that was even needed.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I once did a sort of test on rim heating. First time down the mountain
>>>>>>> I rode the brakes nearly all the way down and stopped and felt of the
>>>>>>> rims. Yes! Hot! then I did a repeat run braking hard to almost a
>>>>>>> walking speed then off the brake and coasted and braked hard, etc.
>>>>>>> Felt the rims and not hot at all.
>>>>>> One of my MTB descents is wet rocky and very steep, you can hear how hot
>>>>>> the brakes get due to the water boiling off the rotors!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It’s about the only one though and the brakes don’t seem to mind ie fade
>>>>>> they just get hot!
>>>>>
>>>>> I really don't understand this. Although the off-road stuff I was riding
>>>>> was REALLY extreme and I was fairly careful with the brakes, I warped a
>>>>> disk myself. How can anyone ride off-road crash and burn levels of MTB
>>>>> and not have disk warping? In that video I sited the expansion and
>>>>> contraction of the Shimano sandwich disks were causing them to fracture
>>>>> on the sides. I think they even showed a disk with a chunk broken out of
>>>>> it. It isn't as if this is some unknown problem. That is why Shimano is
>>>>> attempting to find a means of preventing it.
>>>>>
>>>> I’ve yet to but my background is MTB I’m a MTBer who likes road bikes well
>>>> Gravel bikes. So I’m quite light on the bike, after all I grew up with
>>>> bikes with no suspension and primitive braking at best!
>>>>
>>>> I don’t even seem to wear out pads fast and I use organic as sintered does
>>>> my head in!
>>>>
>>>> I go though though the full travel on the suspension now and then, and have
>>>> ripped tires that weren’t burly enough, mainly when first had the full
>>>> suspension and it allows you to travel much faster/harder and the lighter
>>>> weight tires I had being using just didn’t cope!
>>>>> Another problem is that now people are using direct mount calipers. These
>>>>> are mounted directly on carbon fiber forks and chainstays and produce
>>>>> temperatures well above those that melt the resins used in carbon fiber.
>>>>> Because people so rarely are in these positions they don't know what can
>>>>> happen. This reminds me of a video that one of the crit guys posted.
>>>>> There was a guy drafting the camera bike and he pulled out for the final
>>>>> sprint and as he pulled out and hit the gas, his aero wheel distorted
>>>>> over about 30 degrees of course crashing him. Without that video, I'll
>>>>> bet you, he would never have known what cause his crash because the wheel
>>>>> appeared normal after the crash.
>>>>>
>>>> I’d assume that would be a warranty/recall so that I suspect maybe less
>>>> that the full truth.
>>>
>>> I intend to mount SpD MTB pedals on the gravel bike. I found some new
>>> takeoffs on Ebay so they're coming. I just went down into the garage and
>>> the tubeless tires are flat again. There doesn't appear to be any leaking
>>> sealant anywhere around the tires and I seem to remember that some tires
>>> would absorb the sealant and need almost immediate renewal so that is my
>>> next move. With them pumped all of the way up the ride was remarkably
>>> smooth very much smoother than the same size tire with a tube in it. I
>>> expect the Douglas Vector to ride smother since I installed Latex tubes
>>> in them as the only tubes I had that had 40 mm fillers. And since the
>>> largest tires that fit that bike are 25's it will need them.
>>>
>>> I was one of the first to start riding off-road on MTB's. I had already
>>> done a lot of off-road with street bike or what became CX since touring
>>> bikes had cantilevers and VB-brakes turned up very rapidly since
>>> cantilevers required so much hand strength to stop you. Remember the
>>> Bridgestone MB series? It took a whole lot longer than you would expect
>>> to catch on. But there was a large uptick when hydraulic suspension forks
>>> showed up not so much because of the suspension I believe as much as
>>> because that heavy fork held the front end down during hard climbs.
>>>
>>> But I used street bikes so much off-road that I could never could quite
>>> see the point in an MTB and soon returned. Now they are called gravel
>>> bikes but are what I usually rode. I did have some real CX bikes and with
>>> 32 mm knobbies on them they rolled quite well on the road. I would do our
>>> weekly Moraga Ride ( 37 miles and 3700 feet of climbing up to 10%) on
>>> them and they didn't slow me up at all. Of course I was still in my 60's
>>> and hadn't started the rather rapid slow down I have gone through.
>>>
>> If you the Gravel bike copes and well it’s generally a hint that it’s not
>> really MTB stuff, some of the trails are simply un rideable on gravel bikes
>> for most people even with 30mm of suspension and 50mm tires, they simply
>> can’t cope with the slope or hits like a MTB with 60mm + of tire and at
>> least 100mm of suspension plus the geometry etc, I have both and they are
>> both great but very different.
>>> When I am too old to climb anymore, I will do wind rides and gravel rides
>>> that simulate most if not all of the effort. I won't quit and I'm only
>>> glad my cop friend brought me back from my near death experience and I
>>> intend to torture him with his mistake for the rest of his life.
>>>
>> Roger Merriman
> The only stuff that is un-rideable on anything but a mountain bike are
> areas you purposely have to chose and almost always even a hiker would
> not take that route. It is one thing saying that you can ride an MTB
> anywhere and then forcing yourself to ride where a better pathway exists.
> With care I can ascend and descent 25% trails and doing that on a fully
> suspended MTB simply makes the ruts less needing of attention.
>
Why would you choose to ride tame stuff like fire roads even if steep on a
MTB it’s frankly dull!

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On Friday, October 29, 2021 at 9:29:15 AM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote:
> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Wednesday, October 27, 2021 at 10:09:31 AM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote:
> >> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> On Wednesday, October 27, 2021 at 1:31:46 AM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote:
> >>>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>> On Monday, October 25, 2021 at 11:41:57 AM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote:
> >>>>>> John B. <sloc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Sun, 24 Oct 2021 19:37:58 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> >>>>>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On Sunday, October 24, 2021 at 5:55:00 PM UTC-5, Roger Merriman wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> John B. <sloc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 24 Oct 2021 13:46:35 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> >>>>>>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> On 10/24/2021 11:07 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Disks will overheat to the point where the metal becomes pliable...
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Hmm. "Pliable" is not a term normally found in tables of metallic
> >>>>>>>>>>> properties. How is that defined, exactly? What units are used to measure
> >>>>>>>>>>> it?
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> ... and there is nothing you can do about that. Shimano has even gone
> >>>>>>>>>>>> so far as to sandwich two steel plates over an aluminum center to
> >>>>>>>>>>>> spread the heat and yet they have measured 350 C on descents.. What so
> >>>>>>>>>>>> you suppose that does to the brake pads and hydraulic fluid? But
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> That's pretty impressive. 350 C is seriously hot. Can you give us a link
> >>>>>>>>>>> describing the details of the bike's descent, the method of temperature
> >>>>>>>>>>> measurement, etc?
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> I really wonder about this brake heating as I've descended some rather
> >>>>>>>>>> long and steep hills with aluminum rims with no apparent heating at
> >>>>>>>>>> all. Perhaps it is in the technique?
> >>>>>>>>> Largely I think possibly exasperated by some road bikes being fitted with
> >>>>>>>>> 140mm rotors in a weight saving effort.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Roger Merriman
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I've always been a bit skeptical of the overheating rims and blowing off
> >>>>>>>> tires myth. I've toured on a loaded touring bike in the Swiss Alp,
> >>>>>>>> Italian Dolomites, and Colorado Rockies. Multi, multi mile descents.
> >>>>>>>> 50-60 mph easily achieved. I would always brake hard and slow down a
> >>>>>>>> lot. And then coast back up to high speed. Repeat. Because I was
> >>>>>>>> aware of the overheating rims myth, I never ever rode the brakes
> >>>>>>>> constantly. On hard, then off to let them cool. If that was even needed.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I once did a sort of test on rim heating. First time down the mountain
> >>>>>>> I rode the brakes nearly all the way down and stopped and felt of the
> >>>>>>> rims. Yes! Hot! then I did a repeat run braking hard to almost a
> >>>>>>> walking speed then off the brake and coasted and braked hard, etc..
> >>>>>>> Felt the rims and not hot at all.
> >>>>>> One of my MTB descents is wet rocky and very steep, you can hear how hot
> >>>>>> the brakes get due to the water boiling off the rotors!
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> It’s about the only one though and the brakes don’t seem to mind ie fade
> >>>>>> they just get hot!
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I really don't understand this. Although the off-road stuff I was riding
> >>>>> was REALLY extreme and I was fairly careful with the brakes, I warped a
> >>>>> disk myself. How can anyone ride off-road crash and burn levels of MTB
> >>>>> and not have disk warping? In that video I sited the expansion and
> >>>>> contraction of the Shimano sandwich disks were causing them to fracture
> >>>>> on the sides. I think they even showed a disk with a chunk broken out of
> >>>>> it. It isn't as if this is some unknown problem. That is why Shimano is
> >>>>> attempting to find a means of preventing it.
> >>>>>
> >>>> I’ve yet to but my background is MTB I’m a MTBer who likes road bikes well
> >>>> Gravel bikes. So I’m quite light on the bike, after all I grew up with
> >>>> bikes with no suspension and primitive braking at best!
> >>>>
> >>>> I don’t even seem to wear out pads fast and I use organic as sintered does
> >>>> my head in!
> >>>>
> >>>> I go though though the full travel on the suspension now and then, and have
> >>>> ripped tires that weren’t burly enough, mainly when first had the full
> >>>> suspension and it allows you to travel much faster/harder and the lighter
> >>>> weight tires I had being using just didn’t cope!
> >>>>> Another problem is that now people are using direct mount calipers. These
> >>>>> are mounted directly on carbon fiber forks and chainstays and produce
> >>>>> temperatures well above those that melt the resins used in carbon fiber.
> >>>>> Because people so rarely are in these positions they don't know what can
> >>>>> happen. This reminds me of a video that one of the crit guys posted..
> >>>>> There was a guy drafting the camera bike and he pulled out for the final
> >>>>> sprint and as he pulled out and hit the gas, his aero wheel distorted
> >>>>> over about 30 degrees of course crashing him. Without that video, I'll
> >>>>> bet you, he would never have known what cause his crash because the wheel
> >>>>> appeared normal after the crash.
> >>>>>
> >>>> I’d assume that would be a warranty/recall so that I suspect maybe less
> >>>> that the full truth.
> >>>
> >>> I intend to mount SpD MTB pedals on the gravel bike. I found some new
> >>> takeoffs on Ebay so they're coming. I just went down into the garage and
> >>> the tubeless tires are flat again. There doesn't appear to be any leaking
> >>> sealant anywhere around the tires and I seem to remember that some tires
> >>> would absorb the sealant and need almost immediate renewal so that is my
> >>> next move. With them pumped all of the way up the ride was remarkably
> >>> smooth very much smoother than the same size tire with a tube in it. I
> >>> expect the Douglas Vector to ride smother since I installed Latex tubes
> >>> in them as the only tubes I had that had 40 mm fillers. And since the
> >>> largest tires that fit that bike are 25's it will need them.
> >>>
> >>> I was one of the first to start riding off-road on MTB's. I had already
> >>> done a lot of off-road with street bike or what became CX since touring
> >>> bikes had cantilevers and VB-brakes turned up very rapidly since
> >>> cantilevers required so much hand strength to stop you. Remember the
> >>> Bridgestone MB series? It took a whole lot longer than you would expect
> >>> to catch on. But there was a large uptick when hydraulic suspension forks
> >>> showed up not so much because of the suspension I believe as much as
> >>> because that heavy fork held the front end down during hard climbs.
> >>>
> >>> But I used street bikes so much off-road that I could never could quite
> >>> see the point in an MTB and soon returned. Now they are called gravel
> >>> bikes but are what I usually rode. I did have some real CX bikes and with
> >>> 32 mm knobbies on them they rolled quite well on the road. I would do our
> >>> weekly Moraga Ride ( 37 miles and 3700 feet of climbing up to 10%) on
> >>> them and they didn't slow me up at all. Of course I was still in my 60's
> >>> and hadn't started the rather rapid slow down I have gone through.
> >>>
> >> If you the Gravel bike copes and well it’s generally a hint that it’s not
> >> really MTB stuff, some of the trails are simply un rideable on gravel bikes
> >> for most people even with 30mm of suspension and 50mm tires, they simply
> >> can’t cope with the slope or hits like a MTB with 60mm + of tire and at
> >> least 100mm of suspension plus the geometry etc, I have both and they are
> >> both great but very different.
> >>> When I am too old to climb anymore, I will do wind rides and gravel rides
> >>> that simulate most if not all of the effort. I won't quit and I'm only
> >>> glad my cop friend brought me back from my near death experience and I
> >>> intend to torture him with his mistake for the rest of his life.
> >>>
> >> Roger Merriman
> > The only stuff that is un-rideable on anything but a mountain bike are
> > areas you purposely have to chose and almost always even a hiker would
> > not take that route. It is one thing saying that you can ride an MTB
> > anywhere and then forcing yourself to ride where a better pathway exists.
> > With care I can ascend and descent 25% trails and doing that on a fully
> > suspended MTB simply makes the ruts less needing of attention.
> >
> Why would you choose to ride tame stuff like fire roads even if steep on a
> MTB it’s frankly dull!
>
> MTB allows one to tackle much more technical climbs/descents and so on,
> I’ve just been on a short 14 mile loop on the old workings on the hill
> behind, with very soggy land and 1800ft climbing it’s a hard but fun ride,
> but also way beyond a Gravel bike, the land is too rocky too steep and too
> many hits.
>
> I’ve ridden on sections on the Gravel bike and it’s no fun even in summer
> your nursing the bike as you don’t want to rip a sidewall or crack a rim
> and so on.

Click here to read the complete article

Tom Kunich <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Friday, October 29, 2021 at 9:29:15 AM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, October 27, 2021 at 10:09:31 AM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Wednesday, October 27, 2021 at 1:31:46 AM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>>>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Monday, October 25, 2021 at 11:41:57 AM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>>>>>> John B. <sloc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 24 Oct 2021 19:37:58 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>>>>>>>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Sunday, October 24, 2021 at 5:55:00 PM UTC-5, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> John B. <sloc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 24 Oct 2021 13:46:35 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 10/24/2021 11:07 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Disks will overheat to the point where the metal becomes pliable...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hmm. "Pliable" is not a term normally found in tables of metallic
>>>>>>>>>>>>> properties. How is that defined, exactly? What units are used to measure
>>>>>>>>>>>>> it?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ... and there is nothing you can do about that. Shimano has even gone
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> so far as to sandwich two steel plates over an aluminum center to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> spread the heat and yet they have measured 350 C on descents. What so
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you suppose that does to the brake pads and hydraulic fluid? But
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> That's pretty impressive. 350 C is seriously hot. Can you give us a link
>>>>>>>>>>>>> describing the details of the bike's descent, the method of temperature
>>>>>>>>>>>>> measurement, etc?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I really wonder about this brake heating as I've descended some rather
>>>>>>>>>>>> long and steep hills with aluminum rims with no apparent heating at
>>>>>>>>>>>> all. Perhaps it is in the technique?
>>>>>>>>>>> Largely I think possibly exasperated by some road bikes being fitted with
>>>>>>>>>>> 140mm rotors in a weight saving effort.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I've always been a bit skeptical of the overheating rims and blowing off
>>>>>>>>>> tires myth. I've toured on a loaded touring bike in the Swiss Alp,
>>>>>>>>>> Italian Dolomites, and Colorado Rockies. Multi, multi mile descents.
>>>>>>>>>> 50-60 mph easily achieved. I would always brake hard and slow down a
>>>>>>>>>> lot. And then coast back up to high speed. Repeat. Because I was
>>>>>>>>>> aware of the overheating rims myth, I never ever rode the brakes
>>>>>>>>>> constantly. On hard, then off to let them cool. If that was even needed.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I once did a sort of test on rim heating. First time down the mountain
>>>>>>>>> I rode the brakes nearly all the way down and stopped and felt of the
>>>>>>>>> rims. Yes! Hot! then I did a repeat run braking hard to almost a
>>>>>>>>> walking speed then off the brake and coasted and braked hard, etc.
>>>>>>>>> Felt the rims and not hot at all.
>>>>>>>> One of my MTB descents is wet rocky and very steep, you can hear how hot
>>>>>>>> the brakes get due to the water boiling off the rotors!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It’s about the only one though and the brakes don’t seem to mind ie fade
>>>>>>>> they just get hot!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I really don't understand this. Although the off-road stuff I was riding
>>>>>>> was REALLY extreme and I was fairly careful with the brakes, I warped a
>>>>>>> disk myself. How can anyone ride off-road crash and burn levels of MTB
>>>>>>> and not have disk warping? In that video I sited the expansion and
>>>>>>> contraction of the Shimano sandwich disks were causing them to fracture
>>>>>>> on the sides. I think they even showed a disk with a chunk broken out of
>>>>>>> it. It isn't as if this is some unknown problem. That is why Shimano is
>>>>>>> attempting to find a means of preventing it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> I’ve yet to but my background is MTB I’m a MTBer who likes road bikes well
>>>>>> Gravel bikes. So I’m quite light on the bike, after all I grew up with
>>>>>> bikes with no suspension and primitive braking at best!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don’t even seem to wear out pads fast and I use organic as sintered does
>>>>>> my head in!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I go though though the full travel on the suspension now and then, and have
>>>>>> ripped tires that weren’t burly enough, mainly when first had the full
>>>>>> suspension and it allows you to travel much faster/harder and the lighter
>>>>>> weight tires I had being using just didn’t cope!
>>>>>>> Another problem is that now people are using direct mount calipers. These
>>>>>>> are mounted directly on carbon fiber forks and chainstays and produce
>>>>>>> temperatures well above those that melt the resins used in carbon fiber.
>>>>>>> Because people so rarely are in these positions they don't know what can
>>>>>>> happen. This reminds me of a video that one of the crit guys posted.
>>>>>>> There was a guy drafting the camera bike and he pulled out for the final
>>>>>>> sprint and as he pulled out and hit the gas, his aero wheel distorted
>>>>>>> over about 30 degrees of course crashing him. Without that video, I'll
>>>>>>> bet you, he would never have known what cause his crash because the wheel
>>>>>>> appeared normal after the crash.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> I’d assume that would be a warranty/recall so that I suspect maybe less
>>>>>> that the full truth.
>>>>>
>>>>> I intend to mount SpD MTB pedals on the gravel bike. I found some new
>>>>> takeoffs on Ebay so they're coming. I just went down into the garage and
>>>>> the tubeless tires are flat again. There doesn't appear to be any leaking
>>>>> sealant anywhere around the tires and I seem to remember that some tires
>>>>> would absorb the sealant and need almost immediate renewal so that is my
>>>>> next move. With them pumped all of the way up the ride was remarkably
>>>>> smooth very much smoother than the same size tire with a tube in it. I
>>>>> expect the Douglas Vector to ride smother since I installed Latex tubes
>>>>> in them as the only tubes I had that had 40 mm fillers. And since the
>>>>> largest tires that fit that bike are 25's it will need them.
>>>>>
>>>>> I was one of the first to start riding off-road on MTB's. I had already
>>>>> done a lot of off-road with street bike or what became CX since touring
>>>>> bikes had cantilevers and VB-brakes turned up very rapidly since
>>>>> cantilevers required so much hand strength to stop you. Remember the
>>>>> Bridgestone MB series? It took a whole lot longer than you would expect
>>>>> to catch on. But there was a large uptick when hydraulic suspension forks
>>>>> showed up not so much because of the suspension I believe as much as
>>>>> because that heavy fork held the front end down during hard climbs.
>>>>>
>>>>> But I used street bikes so much off-road that I could never could quite
>>>>> see the point in an MTB and soon returned. Now they are called gravel
>>>>> bikes but are what I usually rode. I did have some real CX bikes and with
>>>>> 32 mm knobbies on them they rolled quite well on the road. I would do our
>>>>> weekly Moraga Ride ( 37 miles and 3700 feet of climbing up to 10%) on
>>>>> them and they didn't slow me up at all. Of course I was still in my 60's
>>>>> and hadn't started the rather rapid slow down I have gone through.
>>>>>
>>>> If you the Gravel bike copes and well it’s generally a hint that it’s not
>>>> really MTB stuff, some of the trails are simply un rideable on gravel bikes
>>>> for most people even with 30mm of suspension and 50mm tires, they simply
>>>> can’t cope with the slope or hits like a MTB with 60mm + of tire and at
>>>> least 100mm of suspension plus the geometry etc, I have both and they are
>>>> both great but very different.
>>>>> When I am too old to climb anymore, I will do wind rides and gravel rides
>>>>> that simulate most if not all of the effort. I won't quit and I'm only
>>>>> glad my cop friend brought me back from my near death experience and I
>>>>> intend to torture him with his mistake for the rest of his life.
>>>>>
>>>> Roger Merriman
>>> The only stuff that is un-rideable on anything but a mountain bike are
>>> areas you purposely have to chose and almost always even a hiker would
>>> not take that route. It is one thing saying that you can ride an MTB
>>> anywhere and then forcing yourself to ride where a better pathway exists.
>>> With care I can ascend and descent 25% trails and doing that on a fully
>>> suspended MTB simply makes the ruts less needing of attention.
>>>
>> Why would you choose to ride tame stuff like fire roads even if steep on a
>> MTB it’s frankly dull!
>>
>> MTB allows one to tackle much more technical climbs/descents and so on,
>> I’ve just been on a short 14 mile loop on the old workings on the hill
>> behind, with very soggy land and 1800ft climbing it’s a hard but fun ride,
>> but also way beyond a Gravel bike, the land is too rocky too steep and too
>> many hits.
>>
>> I’ve ridden on sections on the Gravel bike and it’s no fun even in summer
>> your nursing the bike as you don’t want to rip a sidewall or crack a rim
>> and so on.
>
> I don't know what you mean by a "technical climb" 5 mph makes almost
> nothing "technical" In my experience, you had to TRY to crash a full
> suspension. The only technical climb I could think of was a slippery 23%
> climb and you had to stop at the 100 yard top of that to catch your
> breath. Granted, I could not climb that section on a gravel bike but I
> could get to within 10 feet of the top before the bike simply didn't have
> the gears to continue. And you couldn't put any lower gears on a bike
> like that because it would just lift the front wheel. And if you stood
> you would lose traction. MTBs are heavier, longer and so have a lot more
> traction on climbs so they can carry tiny gears.
>
Technical would mean more than simply steep, personally would need to be a
climb where line choice is crucial and it’s by no means sure that you’ll
clear it, so maybe heavily rutted, with roots, rock step ups, and so on.

Click here to read the complete article

On Friday, October 29, 2021 at 10:31:39 AM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote:
> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Friday, October 29, 2021 at 9:29:15 AM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote:
> >> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> On Wednesday, October 27, 2021 at 10:09:31 AM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote:
> >>>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>> On Wednesday, October 27, 2021 at 1:31:46 AM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote:
> >>>>>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Monday, October 25, 2021 at 11:41:57 AM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote:
> >>>>>>>> John B. <sloc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> On Sun, 24 Oct 2021 19:37:58 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> >>>>>>>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> On Sunday, October 24, 2021 at 5:55:00 PM UTC-5, Roger Merriman wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>> John B. <sloc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 24 Oct 2021 13:46:35 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> >>>>>>>>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 10/24/2021 11:07 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Disks will overheat to the point where the metal becomes pliable...
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Hmm. "Pliable" is not a term normally found in tables of metallic
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> properties. How is that defined, exactly? What units are used to measure
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> it?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ... and there is nothing you can do about that. Shimano has even gone
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> so far as to sandwich two steel plates over an aluminum center to
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> spread the heat and yet they have measured 350 C on descents. What so
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> you suppose that does to the brake pads and hydraulic fluid? But
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> That's pretty impressive. 350 C is seriously hot. Can you give us a link
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> describing the details of the bike's descent, the method of temperature
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> measurement, etc?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> I really wonder about this brake heating as I've descended some rather
> >>>>>>>>>>>> long and steep hills with aluminum rims with no apparent heating at
> >>>>>>>>>>>> all. Perhaps it is in the technique?
> >>>>>>>>>>> Largely I think possibly exasperated by some road bikes being fitted with
> >>>>>>>>>>> 140mm rotors in a weight saving effort.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Roger Merriman
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> I've always been a bit skeptical of the overheating rims and blowing off
> >>>>>>>>>> tires myth. I've toured on a loaded touring bike in the Swiss Alp,
> >>>>>>>>>> Italian Dolomites, and Colorado Rockies. Multi, multi mile descents.
> >>>>>>>>>> 50-60 mph easily achieved. I would always brake hard and slow down a
> >>>>>>>>>> lot. And then coast back up to high speed. Repeat. Because I was
> >>>>>>>>>> aware of the overheating rims myth, I never ever rode the brakes
> >>>>>>>>>> constantly. On hard, then off to let them cool. If that was even needed.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> I once did a sort of test on rim heating. First time down the mountain
> >>>>>>>>> I rode the brakes nearly all the way down and stopped and felt of the
> >>>>>>>>> rims. Yes! Hot! then I did a repeat run braking hard to almost a
> >>>>>>>>> walking speed then off the brake and coasted and braked hard, etc.
> >>>>>>>>> Felt the rims and not hot at all.
> >>>>>>>> One of my MTB descents is wet rocky and very steep, you can hear how hot
> >>>>>>>> the brakes get due to the water boiling off the rotors!
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> It’s about the only one though and the brakes don’t seem to mind ie fade
> >>>>>>>> they just get hot!
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I really don't understand this. Although the off-road stuff I was riding
> >>>>>>> was REALLY extreme and I was fairly careful with the brakes, I warped a
> >>>>>>> disk myself. How can anyone ride off-road crash and burn levels of MTB
> >>>>>>> and not have disk warping? In that video I sited the expansion and
> >>>>>>> contraction of the Shimano sandwich disks were causing them to fracture
> >>>>>>> on the sides. I think they even showed a disk with a chunk broken out of
> >>>>>>> it. It isn't as if this is some unknown problem. That is why Shimano is
> >>>>>>> attempting to find a means of preventing it.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> I’ve yet to but my background is MTB I’m a MTBer who likes road bikes well
> >>>>>> Gravel bikes. So I’m quite light on the bike, after all I grew up with
> >>>>>> bikes with no suspension and primitive braking at best!
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I don’t even seem to wear out pads fast and I use organic as sintered does
> >>>>>> my head in!
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I go though though the full travel on the suspension now and then, and have
> >>>>>> ripped tires that weren’t burly enough, mainly when first had the full
> >>>>>> suspension and it allows you to travel much faster/harder and the lighter
> >>>>>> weight tires I had being using just didn’t cope!
> >>>>>>> Another problem is that now people are using direct mount calipers. These
> >>>>>>> are mounted directly on carbon fiber forks and chainstays and produce
> >>>>>>> temperatures well above those that melt the resins used in carbon fiber.
> >>>>>>> Because people so rarely are in these positions they don't know what can
> >>>>>>> happen. This reminds me of a video that one of the crit guys posted.
> >>>>>>> There was a guy drafting the camera bike and he pulled out for the final
> >>>>>>> sprint and as he pulled out and hit the gas, his aero wheel distorted
> >>>>>>> over about 30 degrees of course crashing him. Without that video, I'll
> >>>>>>> bet you, he would never have known what cause his crash because the wheel
> >>>>>>> appeared normal after the crash.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> I’d assume that would be a warranty/recall so that I suspect maybe less
> >>>>>> that the full truth.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I intend to mount SpD MTB pedals on the gravel bike. I found some new
> >>>>> takeoffs on Ebay so they're coming. I just went down into the garage and
> >>>>> the tubeless tires are flat again. There doesn't appear to be any leaking
> >>>>> sealant anywhere around the tires and I seem to remember that some tires
> >>>>> would absorb the sealant and need almost immediate renewal so that is my
> >>>>> next move. With them pumped all of the way up the ride was remarkably
> >>>>> smooth very much smoother than the same size tire with a tube in it.. I
> >>>>> expect the Douglas Vector to ride smother since I installed Latex tubes
> >>>>> in them as the only tubes I had that had 40 mm fillers. And since the
> >>>>> largest tires that fit that bike are 25's it will need them.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I was one of the first to start riding off-road on MTB's. I had already
> >>>>> done a lot of off-road with street bike or what became CX since touring
> >>>>> bikes had cantilevers and VB-brakes turned up very rapidly since
> >>>>> cantilevers required so much hand strength to stop you. Remember the
> >>>>> Bridgestone MB series? It took a whole lot longer than you would expect
> >>>>> to catch on. But there was a large uptick when hydraulic suspension forks
> >>>>> showed up not so much because of the suspension I believe as much as
> >>>>> because that heavy fork held the front end down during hard climbs.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> But I used street bikes so much off-road that I could never could quite
> >>>>> see the point in an MTB and soon returned. Now they are called gravel
> >>>>> bikes but are what I usually rode. I did have some real CX bikes and with
> >>>>> 32 mm knobbies on them they rolled quite well on the road. I would do our
> >>>>> weekly Moraga Ride ( 37 miles and 3700 feet of climbing up to 10%) on
> >>>>> them and they didn't slow me up at all. Of course I was still in my 60's
> >>>>> and hadn't started the rather rapid slow down I have gone through.
> >>>>>
> >>>> If you the Gravel bike copes and well it’s generally a hint that it’s not
> >>>> really MTB stuff, some of the trails are simply un rideable on gravel bikes
> >>>> for most people even with 30mm of suspension and 50mm tires, they simply
> >>>> can’t cope with the slope or hits like a MTB with 60mm + of tire and at
> >>>> least 100mm of suspension plus the geometry etc, I have both and they are
> >>>> both great but very different.
> >>>>> When I am too old to climb anymore, I will do wind rides and gravel rides
> >>>>> that simulate most if not all of the effort. I won't quit and I'm only
> >>>>> glad my cop friend brought me back from my near death experience and I
> >>>>> intend to torture him with his mistake for the rest of his life.
> >>>>>
> >>>> Roger Merriman
> >>> The only stuff that is un-rideable on anything but a mountain bike are
> >>> areas you purposely have to chose and almost always even a hiker would
> >>> not take that route. It is one thing saying that you can ride an MTB
> >>> anywhere and then forcing yourself to ride where a better pathway exists.
> >>> With care I can ascend and descent 25% trails and doing that on a fully
> >>> suspended MTB simply makes the ruts less needing of attention.
> >>>
> >> Why would you choose to ride tame stuff like fire roads even if steep on a
> >> MTB it’s frankly dull!
> >>
> >> MTB allows one to tackle much more technical climbs/descents and so on,
> >> I’ve just been on a short 14 mile loop on the old workings on the hill
> >> behind, with very soggy land and 1800ft climbing it’s a hard but fun ride,
> >> but also way beyond a Gravel bike, the land is too rocky too steep and too
> >> many hits.
> >>
> >> I’ve ridden on sections on the Gravel bike and it’s no fun even in summer
> >> your nursing the bike as you don’t want to rip a sidewall or crack a rim
> >> and so on.
> >
> > I don't know what you mean by a "technical climb" 5 mph makes almost
> > nothing "technical" In my experience, you had to TRY to crash a full
> > suspension. The only technical climb I could think of was a slippery 23%
> > climb and you had to stop at the 100 yard top of that to catch your
> > breath. Granted, I could not climb that section on a gravel bike but I
> > could get to within 10 feet of the top before the bike simply didn't have
> > the gears to continue. And you couldn't put any lower gears on a bike
> > like that because it would just lift the front wheel. And if you stood
> > you would lose traction. MTBs are heavier, longer and so have a lot more
> > traction on climbs so they can carry tiny gears.
> >
> Technical would mean more than simply steep, personally would need to be a
> climb where line choice is crucial and it’s by no means sure that you’ll
> clear it, so maybe heavily rutted, with roots, rock step ups, and so on.
>
> Roger Merriman.
Well, if you find that sort of riding enjoyable, more power to you. But I prefer to take the easy way up.

Click here to read the complete article

Breadth-first search is the bulldozer of science. -- Randy Goebel

tech / rec.bicycles.tech / Re: Bicycle Subjects

tech / rec.bicycles.tech / Re: Bicycle Subjects

Subject	Author
Bicycle Subjects	Tom Kunich
Re: Bicycle Subjects	jbeattie
Re: Bicycle Subjects	Tom Kunich
Re: Bicycle Subjects	Tom Kunich
Re: Bicycle Subjects	jbeattie
Re: Bicycle Subjects	jbeattie
Re: Bicycle Subjects	Tom Kunich
Re: Bicycle Subjects	Frank Krygowski
Re: Bicycle Subjects	Lou Holtman
Re: Bicycle Subjects	jbeattie
Re: Bicycle Subjects	Lou Holtman
Re: Bicycle Subjects	Roger Merriman
Re: Bicycle Subjects	Tom Kunich
Re: Bicycle Subjects	Roger Merriman
Re: Bicycle Subjects	Tom Kunich
Re: Bicycle Subjects	Tom Kunich
Re: Bicycle Subjects	russellseaton1@yahoo.com
Re: Bicycle Subjects	Tom Kunich
Re: Bicycle Subjects	Frank Krygowski
Re: Bicycle Subjects	russellseaton1@yahoo.com
Re: Bicycle Subjects	Tom Kunich
Re: Bicycle Subjects	russellseaton1@yahoo.com
Re: Bicycle Subjects	russellseaton1@yahoo.com
Re: Bicycle Subjects	russellseaton1@yahoo.com
Re: Bicycle Subjects	Tom Kunich
Re: Bicycle Subjects	russellseaton1@yahoo.com
Re: Bicycle Subjects	Tom Kunich
Re: Bicycle Subjects	Frank Krygowski
Re: Bicycle Subjects	russellseaton1@yahoo.com
Re: Bicycle Subjects	Tom Kunich
Re: Bicycle Subjects	Frank Krygowski
Re: Bicycle Subjects	Tom Kunich
Re: Bicycle Subjects	AMuzi
Re: Bicycle Subjects	Frank Krygowski
Re: Bicycle Subjects	Tom Kunich
Re: Bicycle Subjects	AMuzi
Re: Bicycle Subjects	Tom Kunich
Re: Bicycle Subjects	AMuzi
Re: Bicycle Subjects	John B.
Re: Bicycle Subjects	Tom Kunich
Re: Bicycle Subjects	AMuzi
Re: Bicycle Subjects	Tom Kunich
Re: Bicycle Subjects	AMuzi
Re: Bicycle Subjects	John B.
Re: Bicycle Subjects	AMuzi
Re: Bicycle Subjects	John B.
Re: Bicycle Subjects	Jeff Liebermann
Re: Bicycle Subjects	John B.
Re: Bicycle Subjects	Roger Merriman
Re: Bicycle Subjects	John B.
Re: Bicycle Subjects	russellseaton1@yahoo.com
Re: Bicycle Subjects	John B.
Re: Bicycle Subjects	Roger Merriman
Re: Bicycle Subjects	Tom Kunich
Re: Bicycle Subjects	Roger Merriman
Re: Bicycle Subjects	Tom Kunich
Re: Bicycle Subjects	Roger Merriman
Re: Bicycle Subjects	Tom Kunich
Re: Bicycle Subjects	Roger Merriman
Re: Bicycle Subjects	Tom Kunich
Re: Bicycle Subjects	Roger Merriman
Re: Bicycle Subjects	Tom Kunich
Re: Bicycle Subjects	Duane
Re: Bicycle Subjects	John B.
Re: Bicycle Subjects	jbeattie
Re: Bicycle Subjects	Roger Merriman
Re: Bicycle Subjects	sms
Re: Bicycle Subjects	William Crowell
Re: Bicycle Subjects	AMuzi
Re: Bicycle Subjects	William Crowell
Re: Bicycle Subjects	Frank Krygowski
Re: Bicycle Subjects	jbeattie
Re: Bicycle Subjects	Tom Kunich
Re: Bicycle Subjects	Tom Kunich
Re: Bicycle Subjects	sms
Re: Bicycle Subjects	William Crowell
Re: Bicycle Subjects	Frank Krygowski
Re: Bicycle Subjects	Rolf Mantel
Re: Bicycle Subjects	Frank Krygowski
Re: Bicycle Subjects	Tom Kunich
Re: Bicycle Subjects	Ralph Barone
Re: Bicycle Subjects	Tom Kunich
Re: Bicycle Subjects	russellseaton1@yahoo.com
Re: Bicycle Subjects	Tom Kunich
Re: Bicycle Subjects	russellseaton1@yahoo.com
Re: Bicycle Subjects	jbeattie
Re: Bicycle Subjects	Tom Kunich
Re: Bicycle Subjects	Tom Kunich
Re: Bicycle Subjects	jbeattie