Deep thoughts: Airtags for Android

I gather that most functions of airtags only work with iphones or ipads.
So, get them anyhow if you're concerned someone will steal your car or
your luggage or your shipments. Even if you only have an android phone.
Borrow a phone or ipad to set them up, record on paper what you have to
record, and IF anything is ever lost or stolen, run out and buy an
iphone. How long does that take? It will probably never happen anyhow.
But if it does, you're prepared.

micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> wrote:
> Deep thoughts: Airtags for Android
>
> I gather that most functions of airtags only work with iphones or ipads.
> So, get them anyhow if you're concerned someone will steal your car or
> your luggage or your shipments. Even if you only have an android phone.
> Borrow a phone or ipad to set them up, record on paper what you have to
> record, and IF anything is ever lost or stolen, run out and buy an
> iphone. How long does that take? It will probably never happen anyhow.
> But if it does, you're prepared.

Running to buy an iPhone if they're lost or stolen won't work, because
you need the AppleID and credentials to find out where they are and the
user of the borrowed iPhone/iPad of course won't give *that* to you.

What I did is ask a close relative to set them up and if there's ever
a problem, I just set her a message asking to locate our AirTags (we
have two).

I actually tested that when we were in Australia (she was in NL) and
she sent us a screenshot showing the location and that was indeed
exactly where they were. Of course the that is to be expected, but at
that particular location, I didn't expect (m)any iPhones to be present
to do the tracking, but it worked anyway.

BTW, there is a 'Tracker Detect' app for Android to detect close-by
AirTags. It's *not* for remote tracking, but for close-by detection, for
example to check if some culprit hasn't put *their* AirTag somewhere
close-by, to track you, or (try to) steal your belongings, or ...

'Tracker Detect' (by Apple)
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.apple.trackerdetect>

micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> wrote:

> Deep thoughts: Airtags for Android
>
> I gather that most functions of airtags only work with iphones or ipads.
> So, get them anyhow if you're concerned someone will steal your car or
> your luggage or your shipments. Even if you only have an android phone.
> Borrow a phone or ipad to set them up, record on paper what you have to
> record, and IF anything is ever lost or stolen, run out and buy an
> iphone. How long does that take? It will probably never happen anyhow.
> But if it does, you're prepared.

It's not just iPhones that are required to setup (as Frank noted), it's
also iPhones that must be close to the Airtag to pick up the BT signal,
and those iPhones need to be running the Find My app. The BT signal is
obviously too weak to transmit far enough for any Apple server to
receive, so nearby iPhones running the app must be present to pickup the
signal. You find your Airtag using other people's iPhones.

Tile Pro (https://www.tile.com/en-us) has a BT range of 400 feet, and
works with apps for both Android and iOS. Obviously only Airtag or Tile
users are going to have the app installed or active on their phones.
Not everyone walking by your locator will have the app installed, or
their phone powered on whether they have the app or not.

Considering the mobile market share of Android versus iOS, I'd opt for
the Tile locator.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/272698/global-market-share-held-by-mobile-operating-systems-since-2009/

Just remember it will be a tiny share of the mobile phone market that
has the matching app installed.

Finding your phone doesn't require a locator tag. It's other stuff you
want to find where a locator tag is needed.

micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> wrote:
> Deep thoughts: Airtags for Android
>
> I gather that most functions of airtags only work with iphones or ipads.
> So, get them anyhow if you're concerned someone will steal your car or
> your luggage or your shipments. Even if you only have an android phone.
> Borrow a phone or ipad to set them up, record on paper what you have to
> record,

There's nothing to record, however, the Tags do need to be registered
against your AppleID. For that to happen you need the borrowed ipad/iphone
to be logged into your account. The owner of the device may not be happy to
let you do that.

> and IF anything is ever lost or stolen, run out and buy an
> iphone. How long does that take? It will probably never happen anyhow.
> But if it does, you're prepared.

No need to buy an iphone. Just log into icloud.com.

On 2023-10-18 03:54, micky wrote:
> Deep thoughts: Airtags for Android
>
> I gather that most functions of airtags only work with iphones or ipads.
> So, get them anyhow if you're concerned someone will steal your car or
> your luggage or your shipments. Even if you only have an android phone.
> Borrow a phone or ipad to set them up, record on paper what you have to
> record, and IF anything is ever lost or stolen, run out and buy an
> iphone. How long does that take? It will probably never happen anyhow.
> But if it does, you're prepared.

I bought a "Tile Pro (2022)", designed for Android, this summer.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Tile-Bluetooth-finding-Android-Compatible/dp/B09B2WLRWX/

It works, but I wanted another gadget that still had not released when I
needed it, that follows the new api published by Android, which I think
is more or less compatible with the iphone one. Sorry, I don't remember
the name, it is in another computer 500 Km from me currently.

I can say that my luggage was not detected in the Montreal airport.
Maybe iphones don't detect the Tile. In Spain yes, it was detected.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> wrote:
> micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> wrote:
>
>> Deep thoughts: Airtags for Android
>>
>> I gather that most functions of airtags only work with iphones or ipads.
>> So, get them anyhow if you're concerned someone will steal your car or
>> your luggage or your shipments. Even if you only have an android phone.
>> Borrow a phone or ipad to set them up, record on paper what you have to
>> record, and IF anything is ever lost or stolen, run out and buy an
>> iphone. How long does that take? It will probably never happen anyhow.
>> But if it does, you're prepared.
>
> It's not just iPhones that are required to setup (as Frank noted), it's
> also iPhones that must be close to the Airtag to pick up the BT signal,
> and those iPhones need to be running the Find My app.

Which is all of them.

> The BT signal is
> obviously too weak to transmit far enough for any Apple server to
> receive, so nearby iPhones running the app must be present to pickup the
> signal. You find your Airtag using other people's iPhones.

And ipads, macs, ipods, airpods and apple watches.

> Tile Pro (https://www.tile.com/en-us) has a BT range of 400 feet, and
> works with apps for both Android and iOS. Obviously only Airtag or Tile
> users are going to have the app installed or active on their phones.
> Not everyone walking by your locator will have the app installed, or
> their phone powered on whether they have the app or not.
>
> Considering the mobile market share of Android versus iOS, I'd opt for
> the Tile locator.

Except only a tiny fraction of mobile users will have the Tile app. Whereas
pretty much every single apple device has FindMy. That's well over a
billion devices. AirTags are far more likely to be pinged than a Tile.

> https://www.statista.com/statistics/272698/global-market-share-held-by-mobile-operating-systems-since-2009/
>
> Just remember it will be a tiny share of the mobile phone market that
> has the matching app installed.

For the Tile only.

> Finding your phone doesn't require a locator tag. It's other stuff you
> want to find where a locator tag is needed.
>

VanguardLH <V@nguard.lh> wrote:
[...]
> It's not just iPhones that are required to setup (as Frank noted), it's
> also iPhones that must be close to the Airtag to pick up the BT signal,
> and those iPhones need to be running the Find My app.

As far as I know, this is not correct. They don't need to have any
'Find My' *app* running, but they need to have enabled the
*functionality* to do the detection. And according to our Apple friends,
most if not all Apple devices have that turned on. (This would have been
a case were crossposting to misc.phone.mobile.iphone, *would* have been
appropriate! :-()

> The BT signal is
> obviously too weak to transmit far enough for any Apple server to
> receive, so nearby iPhones running the app must be present to pickup the
> signal. You find your Airtag using other people's iPhones.
>
> Tile Pro (https://www.tile.com/en-us) has a BT range of 400 feet, and
> works with apps for both Android and iOS. Obviously only Airtag or Tile
> users are going to have the app installed or active on their phones.
> Not everyone walking by your locator will have the app installed, or
> their phone powered on whether they have the app or not.
>
> Considering the mobile market share of Android versus iOS, I'd opt for
> the Tile locator.

Before I bought our AirTags, I investigated both AirTags and Tiles and
came to the opposite conclusion: Yes, there are more Androids than
iPhones, but what counts is the combination of Android *and* an
installed/working Tile app. Because Find My is a kind of default for
iPhone users, the number of relevant iPhones probably largely outweighs
the number of relevant Android phones.

This was confirmed by information on 'unbiased' (i.e. Apple *and*
Android) webshops and my reported field test and implied by your
comment:

> Just remember it will be a tiny share of the mobile phone market that
> has the matching app installed.
>
> Finding your phone doesn't require a locator tag. It's other stuff you
> want to find where a locator tag is needed.

Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote:

> VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> wrote:
>> micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Deep thoughts: Airtags for Android
>>>
>>> I gather that most functions of airtags only work with iphones or ipads.
>>> So, get them anyhow if you're concerned someone will steal your car or
>>> your luggage or your shipments. Even if you only have an android phone.
>>> Borrow a phone or ipad to set them up, record on paper what you have to
>>> record, and IF anything is ever lost or stolen, run out and buy an
>>> iphone. How long does that take? It will probably never happen anyhow.
>>> But if it does, you're prepared.
>>
>> It's not just iPhones that are required to setup (as Frank noted), it's
>> also iPhones that must be close to the Airtag to pick up the BT signal,
>> and those iPhones need to be running the Find My app.
>
> Which is all of them.

Ah, I didn't know the Find My app would be running all the time while
draining the battery.

"Find My Service is ALWAYS running, as long as the phone is powered on,
and even for 24 hours after the phone is powered off."
(From a forum post.)

If true, powering off your iPhone won't stop all battery drain. The
only way to stop the service is to logout of the app which also disables
the activation lock on the phone. GPS must also be kept running, so the
phone finding the locator tag can report its position. There's the
drain to keep the BT and GPS radios active along with running the app.
Well, the same is true of using Android devices: run the app, GPS and BT
active. So, do you want to drain your battery helping other users find
their stuff?

Find My can be turned off in settings, so I may not be running on all
those claimed billions (*) of Apple devices.

(*) With a market share of 27%, and a worldwide population of 8 billion
(neglecting distribution is not equal across all nations), there could
only 2 billion Apple devices, but that's around the world, and not where
is your device. From what I've read, the estimate is there are 1.46
billion active iPhones. I suspect you are correct in that there will be
fewer Androids running the Tile app around wherever is your locator tag.
The point is detection is not as ubiquitous as the marketers want you to
believe. Seems these locators are more oriented for use in large
metropolis than out in the burbs or boonies. Can't see anyone detecting
your device you lost while riding a tractor out in the middle of a corn
field.

>> The BT signal is
>> obviously too weak to transmit far enough for any Apple server to
>> receive, so nearby iPhones running the app must be present to pickup the
>> signal. You find your Airtag using other people's iPhones.
>
> And ipads, macs, ipods, airpods and apple watches.
\ \ \ \ \__ very small market
\ \ \ \__ Airpods Pro 2nd gen
\ \ \__ discontinued 2014
\ \__ only for laptops, desktops are fixed
\__ sales dipped to half in 2018, but came back up

> Except only a tiny fraction of mobile users will have the Tile app.
> Whereas pretty much every single apple device has FindMy. That's well
> over a billion devices. AirTags are far more likely to be pinged than
> a Tile.

Could be, but we're still talking about the density of mobile device
users that happen to be within 100-400 feet of wherever is your lost
item. In a metropolis, or high density locations (e.g., airport), the
chances are much better. In the burbs, or farther out, forget it.

VanguardLH <V@nguard.lh> wrote:
[...]
> Seems these locators are more oriented for use in large
> metropolis than out in the burbs or boonies.

Well, my (successful) field test was in the *extreme* boonies, a
campground on the outskirts of a very small village in Australia, with
the vehicles widely spread out, But still some Apple device picked up
our AirTags, which were sitting in our backpacks *inside* our (small)
'motorhome' (4WD campervan/camper).

[...]

> Could be, but we're still talking about the density of mobile device
> users that happen to be within 100-400 feet of wherever is your lost
> item. In a metropolis, or high density locations (e.g., airport), the
> chances are much better. In the burbs, or farther out, forget it.

As long as there are people around, at least sometimes, there's a good
chance, even "In the burbs, or farther out". See above.

I thought Tiles only worked in Android smartphones (Android 9+) with the
app/service running. But I keep seeing articles that make it look like
Tiles also work with iPhones. Hard to separate when they mention
platform compatibility as to whether that means the app, or the tag
device (locator). Tile mentions they have an app for both Android and
iOS, so their app runs on Apple phones. But will an Apple phone running
FindMy, and not running the Tile app, find a Tile tag? With Apple, I
would suspect they'd employ a proprietary protocol atop of Bluetooth.

https://www.tile.com/en-us/blog/tile-tags-compatible-with-android-and-ios-apple-devices

https://www.androidauthority.com/tile-vs-airtag-3193567/

While the article mentions Tile can be used on both Android and iOS,
that's might be just the app. Yet I keep seeing statements like "Tile
Pro is platform agnostic, ensuring full functionality no matter your
phone" (https://www.expressvpn.com/blog/best-airtag-alternatives/).
Both require Bluetooth 4.0+.

Seems the airtags are limited to one community: Apple users. While
Tiles are covered by both communities: Apple and Android. With Apple,
FindMy is always running (unless you disable the service) which drains
battery power due to app power, GPS radio power, and BT power, and for
24 hours after you thought you powered off the phone. With Android,
battery drain happens, too, when running the app.

Tile can have detection disabled to prevent thieves from knowing they
are being tracked. Tiles have also been used to track people without
their consent (plant a Tile on someone or their belongings).

https://www.tile.com/blog/tile-introduces-scan-and-secure-feature-unwanted-tracking-safety

But thieves could also use the Scan and Secure app to see if they are
being tracked. So, Tile came out with a feature to hide their tags from
Scan and Secure.

https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/tile-takes-aim-at-bluetooth-tracker-industrys-theft-and-stalking-measures-with-launch-of-anti-theft-mode-301748350.html

Does the Airtag have an option to disable notification on iPhones of
finding someone's airtag? Can the airtag prevent detecting it, so
thieves won't know they're being tracked?

On 2023-10-18 20:34, VanguardLH wrote:
> Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> wrote:
>>> micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Deep thoughts: Airtags for Android
>>>>
>>>> I gather that most functions of airtags only work with iphones or ipads.
>>>> So, get them anyhow if you're concerned someone will steal your car or
>>>> your luggage or your shipments. Even if you only have an android phone.
>>>> Borrow a phone or ipad to set them up, record on paper what you have to
>>>> record, and IF anything is ever lost or stolen, run out and buy an
>>>> iphone. How long does that take? It will probably never happen anyhow.
>>>> But if it does, you're prepared.
>>>
>>> It's not just iPhones that are required to setup (as Frank noted), it's
>>> also iPhones that must be close to the Airtag to pick up the BT signal,
>>> and those iPhones need to be running the Find My app.
>>
>> Which is all of them.
>
> Ah, I didn't know the Find My app would be running all the time while
> draining the battery.
>
> "Find My Service is ALWAYS running, as long as the phone is powered on,
> and even for 24 hours after the phone is powered off."
> (From a forum post.)
>
> If true, powering off your iPhone won't stop all battery drain. The
> only way to stop the service is to logout of the app which also disables
> the activation lock on the phone. GPS must also be kept running, so the
> phone finding the locator tag can report its position. There's the
> drain to keep the BT and GPS radios active along with running the app.
> Well, the same is true of using Android devices: run the app, GPS and BT
> active. So, do you want to drain your battery helping other users find
> their stuff?

I don't notice any battery draining. System says the Tile app has used
1% of the battery in the last 14 hours. Compared to 14% by Android Auto,
it is nothing.

....

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On 2023-10-18 20:12, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> VanguardLH <V@nguard.lh> wrote:
> [...]
>> It's not just iPhones that are required to setup (as Frank noted), it's
>> also iPhones that must be close to the Airtag to pick up the BT signal,
>> and those iPhones need to be running the Find My app.
>
> As far as I know, this is not correct. They don't need to have any
> 'Find My' *app* running, but they need to have enabled the
> *functionality* to do the detection. And according to our Apple friends,
> most if not all Apple devices have that turned on. (This would have been
> a case were crossposting to misc.phone.mobile.iphone, *would* have been
> appropriate! :-()
>
>> The BT signal is
>> obviously too weak to transmit far enough for any Apple server to
>> receive, so nearby iPhones running the app must be present to pickup the
>> signal. You find your Airtag using other people's iPhones.
>>
>> Tile Pro (https://www.tile.com/en-us) has a BT range of 400 feet, and
>> works with apps for both Android and iOS. Obviously only Airtag or Tile
>> users are going to have the app installed or active on their phones.
>> Not everyone walking by your locator will have the app installed, or
>> their phone powered on whether they have the app or not.
>>
>> Considering the mobile market share of Android versus iOS, I'd opt for
>> the Tile locator.
>
> Before I bought our AirTags, I investigated both AirTags and Tiles and
> came to the opposite conclusion: Yes, there are more Androids than
> iPhones, but what counts is the combination of Android *and* an
> installed/working Tile app. Because Find My is a kind of default for
> iPhone users, the number of relevant iPhones probably largely outweighs
> the number of relevant Android phones.
>
> This was confirmed by information on 'unbiased' (i.e. Apple *and*
> Android) webshops and my reported field test and implied by your
> comment:
>
>> Just remember it will be a tiny share of the mobile phone market that
>> has the matching app installed.
>>
>> Finding your phone doesn't require a locator tag. It's other stuff you
>> want to find where a locator tag is needed.

You need to use a tag gadget that uses the new Android api, which is not
the Tile as of this summer. This api runs fulltime on Android and is
compatible with Apple. Google and Apple reached some kind of agreement
for interworking.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On 10/18/2023 10:39 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

<anip>

> I can say that my luggage was not detected in the Montreal airport.
> Maybe iphones don't detect the Tile. In Spain yes, it was detected.

iPhones will detect Tile tags if the iPhone user has installed the Tile app.

The advantage of the Apple Airtags, at least in the U.S., is that
iPhones are pervasive so the chance of someone with an iPhone (where no
app is required) passing within receiving distance of a transmitting
Airtag is much greater than the chance of someone that has installed the
Tile app, whether on an iPhone or an Android device, passing close
enough to a Tile tag. What's needed is a "Google Tag" with the
capability being part of stock Android, not an app that needs to be
installed.

Apple would never enable full-functionality of Airtags for Android, even
though it would help them sell more Airtags, for the same reason that
they will not allow iMessage on Android.

--
“If you are not an expert on a subject, then your opinions about it
really do matter less than the opinions of experts. It's not
indoctrination nor elitism. It's just that you don't know as much as
they do about the subject.”—Tin Foil Awards

On 2023-10-19 01:22, sms wrote:
> On 10/18/2023 10:39 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>
> <anip>
>
>> I can say that my luggage was not detected in the Montreal airport.
>> Maybe iphones don't detect the Tile. In Spain yes, it was detected.
>
> iPhones will detect Tile tags if the iPhone user has installed the Tile
> app.
>
> The advantage of the Apple Airtags, at least in the U.S., is that
> iPhones are pervasive so the chance of someone with an iPhone (where no
> app is required) passing within receiving distance of a transmitting
> Airtag is much greater than the chance of someone that has installed the
> Tile app, whether on an iPhone or an Android device, passing close
> enough to a Tile tag. What's needed is a "Google Tag" with the
> capability being part of stock Android, not an app that needs to be
> installed.

There are Google Tags, and they have an agreement with Apple, so that
Apple devices will detect them, and Google phones will detect Apple tags
(without any app on both phones worlds). That is done, but at the time I
needed one this summer they were still not sold to the public.

<https://www.tile.com/blog/does-airtag-work-with-android>

<https://www.androidauthority.com/apple-airtags-alternatives-1222793/>

<https://www.lavanguardia.com/andro4all/compras/apple-airtag-alternativa-android>

and:

<https://www.independent.co.uk/extras/indybest/gadgets-tech/chipolo-tracker-google-find-airtag-b2336981.html>

I don't have a link to the agreement news recently.

> Apple would never enable full-functionality of Airtags for Android, even
> though it would help them sell more Airtags, for the same reason that
> they will not allow iMessage on Android.

But an agreement benefits them in areas where there are many more
Androids than iPhones. So, there is an agreement.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On 10/18/2023 5:11 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

<snip>

> But an agreement benefits them in areas where there are many more
> Androids than iPhones. So, there is an agreement.

Thanks, this has not gotten much publicity.

<https://chipolo.net/en-us/products/chipolo-one-point>

But it's premature. “We are working in partnership with Apple to help
finalize the joint unwanted tracker alert specification by the end of
this year. At this time we’ve made the decision to hold the rollout of
the Find My Device network until Apple has implemented protections for
iOS.” Also, the devices are sold out.

But once they work everything out it does indeed look like a good system.

--
“If you are not an expert on a subject, then your opinions about it
really do matter less than the opinions of experts. It's not
indoctrination nor elitism. It's just that you don't know as much as
they do about the subject.”—Tin Foil Awards

"Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

> On 2023-10-18 20:12, Frank Slootweg wrote:
>> VanguardLH <V@nguard.lh> wrote:
>> [...]
>>> It's not just iPhones that are required to setup (as Frank noted), it's
>>> also iPhones that must be close to the Airtag to pick up the BT signal,
>>> and those iPhones need to be running the Find My app.
>>
>> As far as I know, this is not correct. They don't need to have any
>> 'Find My' *app* running, but they need to have enabled the
>> *functionality* to do the detection. And according to our Apple friends,
>> most if not all Apple devices have that turned on. (This would have been
>> a case were crossposting to misc.phone.mobile.iphone, *would* have been
>> appropriate! :-()
>>
>>> The BT signal is
>>> obviously too weak to transmit far enough for any Apple server to
>>> receive, so nearby iPhones running the app must be present to pickup the
>>> signal. You find your Airtag using other people's iPhones.
>>>
>>> Tile Pro (https://www.tile.com/en-us) has a BT range of 400 feet, and
>>> works with apps for both Android and iOS. Obviously only Airtag or Tile
>>> users are going to have the app installed or active on their phones.
>>> Not everyone walking by your locator will have the app installed, or
>>> their phone powered on whether they have the app or not.
>>>
>>> Considering the mobile market share of Android versus iOS, I'd opt for
>>> the Tile locator.
>>
>> Before I bought our AirTags, I investigated both AirTags and Tiles and
>> came to the opposite conclusion: Yes, there are more Androids than
>> iPhones, but what counts is the combination of Android *and* an
>> installed/working Tile app. Because Find My is a kind of default for
>> iPhone users, the number of relevant iPhones probably largely outweighs
>> the number of relevant Android phones.
>>
>> This was confirmed by information on 'unbiased' (i.e. Apple *and*
>> Android) webshops and my reported field test and implied by your
>> comment:
>>
>>> Just remember it will be a tiny share of the mobile phone market that
>>> has the matching app installed.
>>>
>>> Finding your phone doesn't require a locator tag. It's other stuff you
>>> want to find where a locator tag is needed.
>
> You need to use a tag gadget that uses the new Android api, which is not
> the Tile as of this summer. This api runs fulltime on Android and is
> compatible with Apple. Google and Apple reached some kind of agreement
> for interworking.

Android 14 was released Oct 4, 203. I bet the new API won't be
available until Android 15+ or later, so sometime around Q3 2024. My
phone keeps limping along on Android 8.

With cooperation with Apple, and to differentiate old incompatible Tiles
with Tiles supporting the new API, might they be called iTiles?

sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:

> On 10/18/2023 5:11 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> But an agreement benefits them in areas where there are many more
>> Androids than iPhones. So, there is an agreement.
>
> Thanks, this has not gotten much publicity.
>
> <https://chipolo.net/en-us/products/chipolo-one-point>
>
> But it's premature. “We are working in partnership with Apple to help
> finalize the joint unwanted tracker alert specification by the end of
> this year. At this time we’ve made the decision to hold the rollout of
> the Find My Device network until Apple has implemented protections for
> iOS.” Also, the devices are sold out.
>
> But once they work everything out it does indeed look like a good system.

Wonder how long before the politicians catch up to pass laws making it
illegal to use these trackers unless sanctioned by court order. Like
raising the crime from burglary to robbery, might stalkers be prosecuted
more harshly if they use a tracker? There are increasing reports on the
use of trackers related to spousal abuse.

Indiana
https://iga.in.gov/legislative/2023/bills/senate/161/details

Kentucky
https://apps.legislature.ky.gov/record/23rs/sb199.html

Pennsylvania, Ohio, New Jersey (proposals)
https://www.digitaltrends.com/mobile/airtag-legislation-pennsylvania-ohio-new-jersey/

Hmm, if a tracker can track a person, someone has to do the tracking.
So, if a person gets tracked then it seems you can detect who is doing
the tracking. Catch the stalker with his own tracker.

On 10/18/23 14:28, VanguardLH wrote:
> But thieves could also use the Scan and Secure app to see if they are
> being tracked. So, Tile came out with a feature to hide their tags from
> Scan and Secure.

This feels like the start of a back and forth.
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

On 10/18/23 19:53, VanguardLH wrote:
> With cooperation with Apple, and to differentiate old incompatible Tiles
> with Tiles supporting the new API, might they be called iTiles?

That doesn't flow super well. Maybe like, Apple Tiles?
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

On 2023-10-19 02:53, VanguardLH wrote:
> "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 2023-10-18 20:12, Frank Slootweg wrote:
>>> VanguardLH <V@nguard.lh> wrote:
>>> [...]
>>>> It's not just iPhones that are required to setup (as Frank noted), it's
>>>> also iPhones that must be close to the Airtag to pick up the BT signal,
>>>> and those iPhones need to be running the Find My app.
>>>
>>> As far as I know, this is not correct. They don't need to have any
>>> 'Find My' *app* running, but they need to have enabled the
>>> *functionality* to do the detection. And according to our Apple friends,
>>> most if not all Apple devices have that turned on. (This would have been
>>> a case were crossposting to misc.phone.mobile.iphone, *would* have been
>>> appropriate! :-()
>>>
>>>> The BT signal is
>>>> obviously too weak to transmit far enough for any Apple server to
>>>> receive, so nearby iPhones running the app must be present to pickup the
>>>> signal. You find your Airtag using other people's iPhones.
>>>>
>>>> Tile Pro (https://www.tile.com/en-us) has a BT range of 400 feet, and
>>>> works with apps for both Android and iOS. Obviously only Airtag or Tile
>>>> users are going to have the app installed or active on their phones.
>>>> Not everyone walking by your locator will have the app installed, or
>>>> their phone powered on whether they have the app or not.
>>>>
>>>> Considering the mobile market share of Android versus iOS, I'd opt for
>>>> the Tile locator.
>>>
>>> Before I bought our AirTags, I investigated both AirTags and Tiles and
>>> came to the opposite conclusion: Yes, there are more Androids than
>>> iPhones, but what counts is the combination of Android *and* an
>>> installed/working Tile app. Because Find My is a kind of default for
>>> iPhone users, the number of relevant iPhones probably largely outweighs
>>> the number of relevant Android phones.
>>>
>>> This was confirmed by information on 'unbiased' (i.e. Apple *and*
>>> Android) webshops and my reported field test and implied by your
>>> comment:
>>>
>>>> Just remember it will be a tiny share of the mobile phone market that
>>>> has the matching app installed.
>>>>
>>>> Finding your phone doesn't require a locator tag. It's other stuff you
>>>> want to find where a locator tag is needed.
>>
>> You need to use a tag gadget that uses the new Android api, which is not
>> the Tile as of this summer. This api runs fulltime on Android and is
>> compatible with Apple. Google and Apple reached some kind of agreement
>> for interworking.
>
> Android 14 was released Oct 4, 203. I bet the new API won't be
> available until Android 15+ or later, so sometime around Q3 2024. My
> phone keeps limping along on Android 8.

I don't think so.

Same as they expanded the functionality for that covid app to all phones.

>
> With cooperation with Apple, and to differentiate old incompatible Tiles
> with Tiles supporting the new API, might they be called iTiles?

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On 2023-10-19 03:08, VanguardLH wrote:
> sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 10/18/2023 5:11 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>> But an agreement benefits them in areas where there are many more
>>> Androids than iPhones. So, there is an agreement.
>>
>> Thanks, this has not gotten much publicity.
>>
>> <https://chipolo.net/en-us/products/chipolo-one-point>
>>
>> But it's premature. “We are working in partnership with Apple to help
>> finalize the joint unwanted tracker alert specification by the end of
>> this year. At this time we’ve made the decision to hold the rollout of
>> the Find My Device network until Apple has implemented protections for
>> iOS.” Also, the devices are sold out.
>>
>> But once they work everything out it does indeed look like a good system.
>
> Wonder how long before the politicians catch up to pass laws making it
> illegal to use these trackers unless sanctioned by court order. Like
> raising the crime from burglary to robbery, might stalkers be prosecuted
> more harshly if they use a tracker? There are increasing reports on the
> use of trackers related to spousal abuse.

It is already prohibited on planes luggage, on the ground of batteries
exploding, even though they use non rechargeable batteries. Fortunately,
they don't scan for them when doing the check in.

There is already a class of luggage that is "smart", because they come
with a tracker. They are listed as prohibited.

At least the company I last flew with had that in their web page.

>
> Indiana
> https://iga.in.gov/legislative/2023/bills/senate/161/details
>
> Kentucky
> https://apps.legislature.ky.gov/record/23rs/sb199.html
>
> Pennsylvania, Ohio, New Jersey (proposals)
> https://www.digitaltrends.com/mobile/airtag-legislation-pennsylvania-ohio-new-jersey/
>
> Hmm, if a tracker can track a person, someone has to do the tracking.
> So, if a person gets tracked then it seems you can detect who is doing
> the tracking. Catch the stalker with his own tracker.

There are many bad things they can do. Put a tracker on the kids in
order to find the hidden wife, that ran away from the beatings, for
instance.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

In comp.mobile.android, on Wed, 18 Oct 2023 22:14:05 -0500,
candycanearter07 <no@thanks.net> wrote:

>On 10/18/23 19:53, VanguardLH wrote:
>> With cooperation with Apple, and to differentiate old incompatible Tiles
>> with Tiles supporting the new API, might they be called iTiles?

Heavens, no. No device that starts witn i will ever be allowed in my
house.
>
>That doesn't flow super well. Maybe like, Apple Tiles?

I hadn't thought of that, but same problem.

I also didn't think to cross post to the iphone group, but I wouldn't
have because I don't want them knowing I'm jealous of the people with
money who buy iphones, especially since no one is going to steal my car
and I'm only taking one more big trip.

Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
[...]

> It is already prohibited on planes luggage, on the ground of batteries
> exploding, even though they use non rechargeable batteries. Fortunately,
> they don't scan for them when doing the check in.
>
> There is already a class of luggage that is "smart", because they come
> with a tracker. They are listed as prohibited.
>
> At least the company I last flew with had that in their web page.

As you say, it's airline dependent, so check the rules for *your*
airline.

IIRC, there are no worldwide nor US (FAA) rules against using trackers
(with lithium button cells) in checked baggage, but an airline can have
their own restrictions.

I can't (easily) find my notes invetigating this issue, but we took
our AirTags in our checked suitcases on our Dec/Mar United Airlines
flights from NL (via US) to Australia.

VanguardLH <V@nguard.lh> wrote:
[...]

> Ah, I didn't know the Find My app would be running all the time while
> draining the battery.
>
> "Find My Service is ALWAYS running, as long as the phone is powered on,
> and even for 24 hours after the phone is powered off."
> (From a forum post.)
>
> If true, powering off your iPhone won't stop all battery drain. The
> only way to stop the service is to logout of the app which also disables
> the activation lock on the phone. GPS must also be kept running, so the
> phone finding the locator tag can report its position. There's the
> drain to keep the BT and GPS radios active along with running the app.
> Well, the same is true of using Android devices: run the app, GPS and BT
> active. So, do you want to drain your battery helping other users find
> their stuff?

The "drain" by the service (not "the app") and Bluetooth can be very
little. Realize that the AirTag runs for at least a year on a CR2032
button cell. The phone (et al) doesn't need to use more than that amount
of power for doing its bit of the detecting.

And what makes you think GPS must be on all the time?

GPS not needed for detecting an AirTag (or other Apple device). A
location service - not neccessarily GPS - might be needed to report the
location of the detected device.

See also Carlos' response on the (non-)"drain" of his battery for the
Tile 'app'.

Moral:

We know that you like to investigate all kinds of technical stuff,
often stuff which you do not have/use. That's fine. But it's not so fine
when you're doubting - and sometimes even disputing - people who *do*
have and use said stuff.

So if you present your theory, then *say* it's your theory. Don't
present your thinking as facts.

[...]

On 10/19/23 09:11, micky wrote:
> Heavens, no. No device that starts witn i will ever be allowed in my
> house.

Inhaler?
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom