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tech / rec.aviation.piloting / Re: World Economic Forum, Target True Zero is expected to lean heavily toward electric and hydrogen power

SubjectAuthor
* Re: World Economic Forum, Target True Zero is expected to lean heavily toward elJim Pennino
+* Re: World Economic Forum, Target True Zero is expected to lean heavily toward elLarry Dighera
|`* Re: World Economic Forum, Target True Zero is expected to lean heavily toward elJim Pennino
| `* Re: World Economic Forum, Target True Zero is expected to lean heavily toward elLarry Dighera
|  `* Re: World Economic Forum, Target True Zero is expected to lean heavily toward elJim Pennino
|   `* Re: World Economic Forum, Target True Zero is expected to lean heavily toward elLarry Dighera
|    `* Re: World Economic Forum, Target True Zero is expected to lean heavily toward elJim Pennino
|     `* Re: World Economic Forum, Target True Zero is expected to lean heavily toward elLarry Dighera
|      `* Re: World Economic Forum, Target True Zero is expected to lean heavily toward elJim Pennino
|       `* Re: World Economic Forum, Target True Zero is expected to leanGeoff Rove
|        `* Re: World Economic Forum, Target True Zero is expected to lean heavily toward elJim Pennino
|         `* Re: World Economic Forum, Target True Zero is expected to lean heavily toward elLarry Dighera
|          `* Re: World Economic Forum, Target True Zero is expected to lean heavily toward elJim Pennino
|           `* Re: World Economic Forum, Target True Zero is expected to lean heavily toward elLarry Dighera
|            `* Re: World Economic Forum, Target True Zero is expected to lean heavily toward elJim Pennino
|             `* Re: World Economic Forum, Target True Zero is expected to lean heavily toward elLarry Dighera
|              `- Re: World Economic Forum, Target True Zero is expected to lean heavily toward elJim Pennino
`- Re: World Economic Forum, Target True Zero is expected to lean heavily toward elDaniel

1
Re: World Economic Forum, Target True Zero is expected to lean heavily toward electric and hydrogen power

<a4qqth-2e96.ln1@gonzo.specsol.net>

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From: jim...@gonzo.specsol.net (Jim Pennino)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
Subject: Re: World Economic Forum, Target True Zero is expected to lean heavily toward electric and hydrogen power
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2021 08:59:40 -0700
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 by: Jim Pennino - Wed, 4 Aug 2021 15:59 UTC

Larry Dighera <LDighera@att.net> wrote:
>
> https://www.avweb.com/aviation-news/world-economic-forum-launches-target-true-zero-to-reduce-aviation-emissions
>
> World Economic Forum Launches Target True Zero to Reduce Aviation Emissions
> Mark Phelps August 3, 20215

Starry eyed dreamers can come up with all sorts of targets and plans for
zero emissions for things but none of it will become reality absent
blazing advances in technology or acceptance of politically incorrect
technology like nuclear reactors.

Yeah, I know reactors have real problems but all of them can be solved
with current technology.

Re: World Economic Forum, Target True Zero is expected to lean heavily toward electric and hydrogen power

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From: LDigh...@att.net (Larry Dighera)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
Subject: Re: World Economic Forum, Target True Zero is expected to lean heavily toward electric and hydrogen power
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2021 10:51:03 -0700
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 by: Larry Dighera - Sat, 7 Aug 2021 17:51 UTC

On Wed, 4 Aug 2021 08:59:40 -0700, Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net>
wrote:

>Larry Dighera <LDighera@att.net> wrote:
>>
>> https://www.avweb.com/aviation-news/world-economic-forum-launches-target-true-zero-to-reduce-aviation-emissions
>>
>> World Economic Forum Launches Target True Zero to Reduce Aviation Emissions
>> Mark Phelps August 3, 20215
>
>Starry eyed dreamers can come up with all sorts of targets and plans for
>zero emissions for things but none of it will become reality absent
>blazing advances in technology or acceptance of politically incorrect
>technology like nuclear reactors.
>
>Yeah, I know reactors have real problems but all of them can be solved
>with current technology.

Hello Jim,

My issue with nuclear power generation, aside from the potential for it to
render large areas of the planet uninhabitable virtually indefinitely, is
that it is fundamentally irresponsible to produce hazardous waste without an
acceptable means of its safe disposal. And then there's the enormous costs
being paid by our government annually to each nuclear generating entity to
cover on-site spent nuclear storage, and the equally exorbitant cost borne
by the rate-payers at the reactor's end of life for decommissioning them.
(The massive concrete containment and its contents must be sawed into blocks
and trucked to the (non-existent at this time) storage site.)

For use on ocean-going vessels, nuclear power makes better sense, because in
the event of a meltdown, the fissionable materials will burn through the
hull of the ship and sink into the ocean's cooling water, rather than
contaminating the atmosphere. Some of the developing nuclear technologies
may address some of these issue, but I'm not aware of anything specifically.

There is an exciting new technological development that holds promise for
achieving zero emissions for electric aviation. High temperature fuel-cell
advancement by Hypoint appears to have significantly advanced the efficiency
of typically ~60% efficient fuel-cells (Toyota Marai). Please have a look
at this video https://youtu.be/0stTeHSVvFw to see HyPoint's claims.
HyPoint's May, 2021 White Paper is here: https://docsend.com/view/t9aw2mk .

December 2020, HyPoint was named a winner of NASA's iTech Initiative.

https://www.aerospacetestinginternational.com/news/electric-hybrid/prototype-air-cooled-fuel-cell-for-aircraft-passes-validation-tests.html
Testing has shown that the turbo air-cooled hydrogen fuel cell system
will achieve up to 2,000 watts per kilogram of specific power, more than
triple the power-to-weight ratio of traditional hydrogen fuel cells
systems. It will also feature up to 1,500 watt-hours per kilogram of
energy density, enabling longer-distance journeys.

So if renewably-generated (tidal, solar, wind, geothermal) H2 electrolysis
was cryocooler liquefied (LH2) and employed for electric aviation, it seems
to me that zero emissions With LH2's energy density greater than gasoline
and light weight is an obvious course to pursue. Here's an inexpensive
High-purity hydrogen generator for laboratory Gaschromatograph produces
0-300ml/min: https://www.ebay.com/itm/183638440966

Here are some videos that illustrate how easy and inexpensive it is to
liquefy air and N2:
https://youtu.be/7PWESWqhD8s Liquid Nitrogen Generator
https://youtu.be/dCXkaQa53QQ liquid air
https://youtu.be/upuxp3OowbY LIQUID NITROGEN out of AIR
I realize that H2 liquefaction requires a lower temperature, around 21 K
IIRC, the techniques demonstrated in those videos would have to be modified
accordingly.

Here are some cheap used cryocoolers to provide some idea of what's
available:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/255039878032
AIRESEARCH F4 Phantom super conductor Nitrogen CRYOGENIC COMPRESSOR

https://www.ebay.com/itm/191506050025
NESLAB FTC-350A FlowThru Cooler CRYOCOOL COOLER

https://www.ebay.com/itm/114297652946
Advanced Research Systems DE-204NF Cryocooler Cold Head

https://www.ebay.com/itm/362591825340
APD MODEL125S CRYOGENIC PUMP

https://www.ebay.com/itm/283635450637
BRUKER Cryo Platform CryoCooling Unit 2M with Stabiline SVRS 88204CU

If the extremely cold temperature of LH2 becomes a limiting factor in the
field, H2 can be stored in solids:

https://www.renewableenergymagazine.com/hydrogen/new-powerpaste-for-hydrogen-storage-20210204
Fraunhofer Institute for Manufacturing Technology and Advanced Materials
IFAM in Dresden have now come up with a hydrogen-based fuel that is
ideal for small vehicles: Powerpaste, which is based on solid magnesium
hydride.

https://newatlas.com/energy/powerpaste-hydrogen-fuel-paste/
Fraunhofer researchers have presented a magnesium-based "Powerpaste"
that stores hydrogen energy at 10 times the density of a lithium
battery, offering hydrogen fuel cell vehicles the ability to travel
further than gasoline-powered ones, and refuel in minutes.

https://www.nrel.gov/hydrogen/storage.html
U.S. Department of Energy (DOE), NREL develops comprehensive storage
solutions, with a focus on hydrogen storage material properties, storage
system configurations, interface requirements, and well-to-wheel
analyses.

Finally, here are videos demonstrating H2 fuel cell powered aircraft:
https://youtu.be/U_FRA63uihw Hydrogen Fuel cell Powered Drone
https://youtu.be/u9DaHIecIc4 Hydrogen Fuel Cells Go Flying

Best regards,
Larry

---------------------------------------------------------
https://hypoint.com
drop us a line

we make zero emission air transport possible

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Re: World Economic Forum, Target True Zero is expected to lean heavily toward electric and hydrogen power

<vh03uh-pa42.ln1@gonzo.specsol.net>

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From: jim...@gonzo.specsol.net (Jim Pennino)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
Subject: Re: World Economic Forum, Target True Zero is expected to lean heavily toward electric and hydrogen power
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2021 11:38:25 -0700
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 by: Jim Pennino - Sat, 7 Aug 2021 18:38 UTC

Larry Dighera <LDighera@att.net> wrote:
>
> On Wed, 4 Aug 2021 08:59:40 -0700, Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net>
> wrote:
>
>>Larry Dighera <LDighera@att.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> https://www.avweb.com/aviation-news/world-economic-forum-launches-target-true-zero-to-reduce-aviation-emissions
>>>
>>> World Economic Forum Launches Target True Zero to Reduce Aviation Emissions
>>> Mark Phelps August 3, 20215
>>
>>Starry eyed dreamers can come up with all sorts of targets and plans for
>>zero emissions for things but none of it will become reality absent
>>blazing advances in technology or acceptance of politically incorrect
>>technology like nuclear reactors.
>>
>>Yeah, I know reactors have real problems but all of them can be solved
>>with current technology.
>
> Hello Jim,
>
> My issue with nuclear power generation, aside from the potential for it to
> render large areas of the planet uninhabitable virtually indefinitely, is
> that it is fundamentally irresponsible to produce hazardous waste without an
> acceptable means of its safe disposal. And then there's the enormous costs
> being paid by our government annually to each nuclear generating entity to
> cover on-site spent nuclear storage, and the equally exorbitant cost borne
> by the rate-payers at the reactor's end of life for decommissioning them.
> (The massive concrete containment and its contents must be sawed into blocks
> and trucked to the (non-existent at this time) storage site.)

True, mostly, about the risks, but like I said, all those problems can be
solved with current technology.

That is, we don't have to invent something new, just build something that
to date hasn't been built.

As for "uninhabitable virtually indefinitely", Chernobyl, in spite of
little action to make it happen, is already showing signs of recovery
after only 35 years, as opposed to the thousands of years of the
doomsday crowd.

The original exclusion area was about 3,000 km^2 and is shrinking
already.

As of 2016, 187 locals had returned and were living permanently in the zone.

3,000 km^2 is about 0.0002% of the Earth's land area, so it would take
100 Chernobyls to get to 0.02% and new reactors would not be the ratty
old design of Chernobyl or run by lackadaisical Russians.

Estimates for when the vast majority of the area will be considered
habitable again range from about 300 years up.

BTW, the government does not pay the generating entity anything.

It is the entity that is charged an operating fee by the government for
eventual shutdown and disposal of waste. It has been that way for a LONG
time.

Re: World Economic Forum, Target True Zero is expected to lean heavily toward electric and hydrogen power

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From: LDigh...@att.net (Larry Dighera)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
Subject: Re: World Economic Forum, Target True Zero is expected to lean heavily toward electric and hydrogen power
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2021 14:05:28 -0700
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 by: Larry Dighera - Sat, 7 Aug 2021 21:05 UTC

On Sat, 7 Aug 2021 11:38:25 -0700, Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net>
wrote:

>Larry Dighera <LDighera@att.net> wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, 4 Aug 2021 08:59:40 -0700, Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>Larry Dighera <LDighera@att.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> https://www.avweb.com/aviation-news/world-economic-forum-launches-target-true-zero-to-reduce-aviation-emissions
>>>>
>>>> World Economic Forum Launches Target True Zero to Reduce Aviation Emissions
>>>> Mark Phelps August 3, 20215
>>>
>>>Starry eyed dreamers can come up with all sorts of targets and plans for
>>>zero emissions for things but none of it will become reality absent
>>>blazing advances in technology or acceptance of politically incorrect
>>>technology like nuclear reactors.
>>>
>>>Yeah, I know reactors have real problems but all of them can be solved
>>>with current technology.
>>>

https://earth.stanford.edu/news/steep-costs-nuclear-waste-us#gs.7v7elx
America's nuclear waste: No solution in sight

America’s nuclear waste is accumulating at over 75 sites in 35 states. In
2016, Stanford scholars discussed why there was no clear way forward for its
final disposal. Not much has improved.

>>
>>
>> Hello Jim,
>>
>> My issue with nuclear power generation, aside from the potential for it to
>> render large areas of the planet uninhabitable virtually indefinitely, is
>> that it is fundamentally irresponsible to produce hazardous waste without an
>> acceptable means of its safe disposal. And then there's the enormous costs
>> being paid by our government annually to each nuclear generating entity to
>> cover on-site spent nuclear storage, and the equally exorbitant cost borne
>> by the rate-payers at the reactor's end of life for decommissioning them.
>> (The massive concrete containment and its contents must be sawed into blocks
>> and trucked to the (non-existent at this time) storage site.)
>
>True, mostly, about the risks, but like I said, all those problems can be
>solved with current technology.
>
>That is, we don't have to invent something new, just build something that
>to date hasn't been built.
>

So, you disagree that it is fundamentally irresponsible to produce hazardous
waste without an acceptable means of its safe disposal.

>
>As for "uninhabitable virtually indefinitely", Chernobyl, in spite of
>little action to make it happen, is already showing signs of recovery
>after only 35 years, as opposed to the thousands of years of the
>doomsday crowd.
>
>The original exclusion area was about 3,000 km^2 and is shrinking
>already.
>
>As of 2016, 187 locals had returned and were living permanently in the zone.
>
>3,000 km^2 is about 0.0002% of the Earth's land area, so it would take
>100 Chernobyls to get to 0.02% and new reactors would not be the ratty
>old design of Chernobyl or run by lackadaisical Russians.
>
>Estimates for when the vast majority of the area will be considered
>habitable again range from about 300 years up.
>
>BTW, the government does not pay the generating entity anything.
>
>It is the entity that is charged an operating fee by the government for
>eventual shutdown and disposal of waste. It has been that way for a LONG
>time.
>

Jim,

Have you seen these articles?

https://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-radioactive-nuclear-waste-storage-20190614-story.html
Almost 40 years after Congress decided the United States, and not private
companies, would be responsible for storing radioactive waste, the cost of
that effort has grown to $7.5 billion, and it’s about to get even pricier.

https://dc.medill.northwestern.edu/blog/2019/12/07/nuclear-power-plants-require-significant-subsidies-to-keep-operating-experts-say/
In January 2018 Illinois’ quad cities and Clinton nuclear reactors received
government subsidies worth $200 million a year. Two millstone plants in
Connecticut also received subsidies worth $330 million a year in December of
the same year, while Salem and Hope Creek reactors in New Jersey received
$300 million subsidies in April 2019.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economics_of_nuclear_power_plants
The study of the economics of nuclear power has found it has never been
financially viable, that most plants have been built while heavily
subsidised by governments, often motivated by military purposes, and that
nuclear power is not a good approach to tackling climate change.

https://fas.org/sgp/crs/nuke/IF11201.pdf
Political and legal opposition to
the project has delayed the licensing, construction, and
operation of the proposed Yucca Mountain repository.
NWPA authorized DOE to enter into agreements with
nuclear utilities and other reactor owners to collect fees to
pay for DOE’s disposal of the SNF. However, due to the
delay in operation of a permanent repository, the federal
government has paid roughly $7.4 billion from the
Judgment Fund to nuclear utilities and other reactor owners
pursuant to court settlements and final judgments through
FY2018.

https://earth.stanford.edu/news/steep-costs-nuclear-waste-us#gs.7v7elx
We pay about half-a-billion dollars a year to the utilities for their simply
keeping the fuel because there’s no place for it to go. --Rodney C. Ewing

What will happen if we don’t find a solution?

There will not be an immediate catastrophe; I don’t expect anything to
explode. There will be environmental contamination, but the biggest problem
is financial. We’re spending $6 billion a year trying to deal with the
problem, and we’ll continue to spend $4.5 to $5 billion a year without
solving the problem.

https://www.politico.com/story/2013/11/nuclear-waste-fiasco-100450

The $38 billion nuclear waste fiasco

By DARIUS DIXON

11/30/2013 12:29 PM EST
Share on Facebook
Share on Twitter

Doing nothing often has a cost — and when it comes to storing the nation’s
nuclear waste, the price is $38 billion and rising.

That’s just the lowball estimate for how much taxpayers will wind up
spending because of the government’s decades of dithering about how to
handle the radioactive leftovers sitting at dozens of sites in 38 states.
The final price will be higher unless the government starts collecting the
waste by 2020, which almost nobody who tracks the issue expects.

The first $15 billion is what the government spent on a controversial
nuclear waste repository at Nevada’s Yucca Mountain until the Obama
administration scrapped the project. The other $23 billion is the Energy
Department’s estimate of the damages the government will have to pay to
nuclear power utilities, which for the past 30 years have paid a fee to DOE
on the promise that the feds would begin collecting their waste in 1998.

Industry argues that the damages are closer to $50 billion — which raises
the bottom line to $65 billion including the money spent on Yucca.

( Sign up for POLITICO’s Morning Energy tip sheet)

The cost of the refunds is little known to the public, but it’s such a huge
liability that DOE tracks the figure closely. The government is still
fighting the utilities’ claims in court, but utilities have been racking up
a string of wins.

The costs of inaction don’t just include dollars. The lack of a final
resting place for the waste means that each nuclear plant has to stockpile
its own. Thousands of tons of waste are stranded at sites around the
country, including at plants that have shut down.

“I’m trying to think of some fancy words, but at the end of the day it’s
just a massive consumer rip-off,” said Greg White, a regulator on the
Michigan Public Service Commission who also heads the nuclear waste panel
for the National Association of Regulatory Utility Commissioners. NARUC,
which represents state-level regulators, won a legal victory this month when
the D.C. Circuit Court of Appeals ordered DOE to stop collecting the fee.
[...]

Re: World Economic Forum, Target True Zero is expected to lean heavily toward electric and hydrogen power

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From: jim...@gonzo.specsol.net (Jim Pennino)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
Subject: Re: World Economic Forum, Target True Zero is expected to lean heavily toward electric and hydrogen power
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2021 18:00:10 -0700
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 by: Jim Pennino - Sun, 8 Aug 2021 01:00 UTC

Larry Dighera <LDighera@att.net> wrote:
> On Sat, 7 Aug 2021 11:38:25 -0700, Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net>
> wrote:
>
>>Larry Dighera <LDighera@att.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Wed, 4 Aug 2021 08:59:40 -0700, Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Larry Dighera <LDighera@att.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.avweb.com/aviation-news/world-economic-forum-launches-target-true-zero-to-reduce-aviation-emissions
>>>>>
>>>>> World Economic Forum Launches Target True Zero to Reduce Aviation Emissions
>>>>> Mark Phelps August 3, 20215
>>>>
>>>>Starry eyed dreamers can come up with all sorts of targets and plans for
>>>>zero emissions for things but none of it will become reality absent
>>>>blazing advances in technology or acceptance of politically incorrect
>>>>technology like nuclear reactors.
>>>>
>>>>Yeah, I know reactors have real problems but all of them can be solved
>>>>with current technology.
>>>>
>
> https://earth.stanford.edu/news/steep-costs-nuclear-waste-us#gs.7v7elx
> America's nuclear waste: No solution in sight
>
> America?s nuclear waste is accumulating at over 75 sites in 35 states. In
> 2016, Stanford scholars discussed why there was no clear way forward for its
> final disposal. Not much has improved.

And yet again, that is NOT a technological problem, it is a POLITICAL
problem. How to build such facilities is century old tecnology.

>>> Hello Jim,
>>>
>>> My issue with nuclear power generation, aside from the potential for it to
>>> render large areas of the planet uninhabitable virtually indefinitely, is
>>> that it is fundamentally irresponsible to produce hazardous waste without an
>>> acceptable means of its safe disposal. And then there's the enormous costs
>>> being paid by our government annually to each nuclear generating entity to
>>> cover on-site spent nuclear storage, and the equally exorbitant cost borne
>>> by the rate-payers at the reactor's end of life for decommissioning them.
>>> (The massive concrete containment and its contents must be sawed into blocks
>>> and trucked to the (non-existent at this time) storage site.)
>>
>>True, mostly, about the risks, but like I said, all those problems can be
>>solved with current technology.
>>
>>That is, we don't have to invent something new, just build something that
>>to date hasn't been built.
>>
>
> So, you disagree that it is fundamentally irresponsible to produce hazardous
> waste without an acceptable means of its safe disposal.

Yes, but yet again, that is NOT a technological problem, it is a
POLITICAL problem. How to build such facilities is century old tecnology.

Actually building them is a POLITICAL issue.

>>
>>As for "uninhabitable virtually indefinitely", Chernobyl, in spite of
>>little action to make it happen, is already showing signs of recovery
>>after only 35 years, as opposed to the thousands of years of the
>>doomsday crowd.
>>
>>The original exclusion area was about 3,000 km^2 and is shrinking
>>already.
>>
>>As of 2016, 187 locals had returned and were living permanently in the zone.
>>
>>3,000 km^2 is about 0.0002% of the Earth's land area, so it would take
>>100 Chernobyls to get to 0.02% and new reactors would not be the ratty
>>old design of Chernobyl or run by lackadaisical Russians.
>>
>>Estimates for when the vast majority of the area will be considered
>>habitable again range from about 300 years up.
>>
>>BTW, the government does not pay the generating entity anything.
>>
>>It is the entity that is charged an operating fee by the government for
>>eventual shutdown and disposal of waste. It has been that way for a LONG
>>time.
>>
>
> Jim,
>
> Have you seen these articles?

<snip>

I don't care and most of it is irrelevant arm waving.

First, I don't care much what other countries do as long as they are not
bombing Pearl Harbour.

Second, the majority of US nuclear waste is generated by the US
government as a result of military operations, not private nuclear power
plants.

As of 2019 the US disposal fund was $43 billion and earns about $1.5
billion a year in interest, and utilities pumped in about $750 million per
year until the lawsuit over the utter lack of any action on the part of
the DOE, which is the agency responsible for handling waste.

Yet the DOE has done NOTHING to address the issue and a federal judge
found in 2014 that the DOE cannot charge for a service it is not
providing, and utilities stopped paying.

That sounds like yet another POLITICAL issue.

If this were a perfect world of rainbows and butterflys, then there
might be an international effort to find a remote, uninhabited place
where everyone could store the waste.

But that again, is a POLITICAL issue.

And since ALL the issues with nuclear power are political, discussions
of them belong somewhere else.

Re: World Economic Forum, Target True Zero is expected to lean heavily toward electric and hydrogen power

<87a6ls1fkm.fsf@scifidan.com>

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From: me...@scifidan.com (Daniel)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
Subject: Re: World Economic Forum, Target True Zero is expected to lean heavily toward electric and hydrogen power
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 by: Daniel - Sun, 8 Aug 2021 08:55 UTC

Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net> writes:

> Larry Dighera <LDighera@att.net> wrote:
>>
>> https://www.avweb.com/aviation-news/world-economic-forum-launches-target-true-zero-to-reduce-aviation-emissions
>>
>> World Economic Forum Launches Target True Zero to Reduce Aviation Emissions
>> Mark Phelps August 3, 20215
>
> Starry eyed dreamers can come up with all sorts of targets and plans for
> zero emissions for things but none of it will become reality absent
> blazing advances in technology or acceptance of politically incorrect
> technology like nuclear reactors.
>
> Yeah, I know reactors have real problems but all of them can be solved
> with current technology.

Politicians are dreamers.

Re: World Economic Forum, Target True Zero is expected to lean heavily toward electric and hydrogen power

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From: LDigh...@att.net (Larry Dighera)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
Subject: Re: World Economic Forum, Target True Zero is expected to lean heavily toward electric and hydrogen power
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2021 16:05:33 -0700
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 by: Larry Dighera - Mon, 9 Aug 2021 23:05 UTC

On Sat, 7 Aug 2021 18:00:10 -0700, Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net>
wrote:

>And since ALL the issues with nuclear power are political, discussions
>of them belong somewhere else.

As I recall, it was you who was first to mention nuclear power generation in
this forum.

I was hoping you might acknowledge the viability of LH2 for electric
aviation in light of the new high temperature fuel-cell technological
breakthrough information I provided.

On that subject, here is a technology that bypasses the necessity for
electricity to power electrolysis of water into its constituent H2 and O2
gases.

https://environment.harvard.edu/news/next-step-renewable-bionic-leaf-fuel-production
"What you do is you use sunlight to rearrange the bonds of water and
make hydrogen and oxygen. You can use the hydrogen as a fuel via fuel
cells. That takes the hydrogen and takes oxygen from the air and then it
generates electricity."

VIDEO: https://youtu.be/2KRlRhNbxKg
Watch as light splits water into H2 and O2 before your eyes.

https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2016/06/bionic-leaf-turns-sunlight-into-liquid-fuel/

https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2018/01/harvards-bionic-leaf-could-help-feed-the-world/
"The bionic leaf is an outgrowth of Nocera’s artificial leaf, which
efficiently splits water into hydrogen and oxygen gas by pairing silicon
— the material that makes up solar panels — with catalyst coatings. The
hydrogen gas can be stored on site and used to drive fuel cells,
providing a way to store and use power that originates from the sun."

https://www.pnas.org/content/118/9/e2024855118.short
RESEARCH ARTICLE
Continuous electrochemical water splitting from natural water sources
via forward osmosis
Samuel S. Veroneau and View ORCID ProfileDaniel G. Nocera

I'm thinking that this technology, together with the high-temperature
fuel-cell technology I mentioned in a previous message may advance the
movement toward long range electric aircraft.

High Temperature Fuel-cell Technological breakthrough:
There is an exciting new technological development that holds promise for
achieving zero emissions for electric aviation. High temperature fuel-cell
advancement by Hypoint appears to have significantly advanced the efficiency
of typically ~60% efficient fuel-cells (Toyota Marai). Please have a look
at this video https://youtu.be/0stTeHSVvFw to see HyPoint's claims.
HyPoint's May, 2021 White Paper is here: https://docsend.com/view/t9aw2mk .

December 2020, HyPoint was named a winner of NASA's iTech Initiative.

https://www.aerospacetestinginternational.com/news/electric-hybrid/prototype-air-cooled-fuel-cell-for-aircraft-passes-validation-tests.html
Testing has shown that the turbo air-cooled hydrogen fuel cell system
will achieve up to 2,000 watts per kilogram of specific power, more than
triple the power-to-weight ratio of traditional hydrogen fuel cells
systems. It will also feature up to 1,500 watt-hours per kilogram of
energy density, enabling longer-distance journeys.

Best regards,
Larry

Re: World Economic Forum, Target True Zero is expected to lean heavily toward electric and hydrogen power

<thq8uh-hj51.ln1@gonzo.specsol.net>

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From: jim...@gonzo.specsol.net (Jim Pennino)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
Subject: Re: World Economic Forum, Target True Zero is expected to lean heavily toward electric and hydrogen power
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 by: Jim Pennino - Mon, 9 Aug 2021 23:32 UTC

Larry Dighera <LDighera@att.net> wrote:
> On Sat, 7 Aug 2021 18:00:10 -0700, Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net>
> wrote:
>
>>And since ALL the issues with nuclear power are political, discussions
>>of them belong somewhere else.
>
> As I recall, it was you who was first to mention nuclear power generation in
> this forum.

Yeah, in a couple of words as an example of existing but politically incorrect
tecnology.

Then YOU took the ball and ran with it.

>
> I was hoping you might acknowledge the viability of LH2 for electric
> aviation in light of the new high temperature fuel-cell technological
> breakthrough information I provided.

Possibility, with a lot more research yes, viability any time soon, no.

Any day now we will have unlimited fusion energy, a cure for the common
cold, and peace in the Middle East.

And it has been that way for over a half century.

> On that subject, here is a technology that bypasses the necessity for
> electricity to power electrolysis of water into its constituent H2 and O2
> gases.

I read about this, yet another, pie in the sky scheme long ago.

That's never going to happen other than in some niche applications for a
LOT of reasons.

Even if you could get it to work on a large scale, you still have the issues
of compressing, storing, and transporting the hydrogen, none of which are
cheap in terms of energy.

Climate change will destroy civilization, so we better destroy
civilization to keep that from happening...

Re: World Economic Forum, Target True Zero is expected to lean heavily toward electric and hydrogen power

<bp15hglvmp8gn0mlcusl5lufctikk2cbih@4ax.com>

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From: LDigh...@att.net (Larry Dighera)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
Subject: Re: World Economic Forum, Target True Zero is expected to lean heavily toward electric and hydrogen power
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 by: Larry Dighera - Sun, 15 Aug 2021 19:29 UTC

On Mon, 9 Aug 2021 16:32:47 -0700, Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net>
wrote:

>Larry Dighera <LDighera@att.net> wrote:
>> On Sat, 7 Aug 2021 18:00:10 -0700, Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net>
>> wrote:
>>

[snip]

>> I was hoping you might acknowledge the viability of LH2 for electric
>> aviation in light of the new high temperature fuel-cell technological
>> breakthrough information I provided.
>
>Possibility, with a lot more research yes, viability any time soon, no.
>

Agreed. Some of the recent "breakthrough"technologies I have suggested
require further development. Apparently that development is underway,
however.

>
>Any day now we will have unlimited fusion energy, a cure for the common
>cold, and peace in the Middle East.
>
>And it has been that way for over a half century.
>

I would wager you were equally skeptical about the likelihood of electric
automobiles being accepted worldwide by governments and the public before
Elon Musk proved that they can be stylish, reasonably non-polluting, and
very fast.

You skepticism is why I value your input on this topic. You are
knowledgeable and difficult to convince; that drives me to research the
points you make, and learn something in the process.

>
>> On that subject, here is a technology that bypasses the necessity for
>> electricity to power electrolysis of water into its constituent H2 and O2
>> gases.
>
>I read about this, yet another, pie in the sky scheme long ago.
>
>That's never going to happen other than in some niche applications for a
>LOT of reasons.
>

I believe the report indicates that the direct photo-electrolysis of water
into its constituent gases is currently working in the laboratory.
Regardless of how efficient it is or is not, a passive solar electrolysis
cell fueled solely by sunshine could deliver H2 and O2 whenever and wherever
the sun hits it. That's about as clean H2 production as I can imagine.

Locally sited direct solar hydrolysis coupled with the very high efficiency
of electric motor technology, and more efficient high temperature fuel-cell
technology would eliminate the power required to generate H2, and deliver it
at the "filling station," all without emitting any CO2 or any other
pollutants.

>
>Even if you could get it to work on a large scale, you still have the issues
>of compressing, storing, and transporting the hydrogen, none of which are
>cheap in terms of energy.
>

Compressing H2 is not required if a cryocooler is employed to liquefy it;
LH2 is stored at ambient atmospheric pressure. In the videos at the links I
included in previous posts, you will see cryocoolers liquefying atmospheric
nitrogen with only ~150 Watts of energy required.

Alternatively, H2 can be stored in the spaces between solid-matter molecules
al la Power Paste, or some other similar product.

As mentioned above, on-site hydrogen generation obviates the necessity for
transporting it, and eliminates the emissions associated with the
traditional method of trucking fuel to filling stations.

>
>Climate change will destroy civilization, so we better destroy
>civilization to keep that from happening...
>

I too believe that we have passed the point of turning the destructive
environmental trend around as evidenced by the loss of forests:

https://www.iucn.org/resources/issues-briefs/deforestation-and-forest-degradation
"Over half of the tropical forests worldwide have been destroyed since
the 1960s, and every second, more than one hectare of tropical forests
is destroyed or drastically degraded. This intense and devastating
pressure on forests is not limited to the tropics – an estimated 3.7
million hectares of Europe’s forests are damaged by livestock, insects,
diseases, forest fires, and other human-linked activities."

Of course, the last phrase in your sentence is meant tongue-in-cheek, but it
sounds like QAnon fake news and makes me want to take my toddler aged
children to Mexico and shoot them through the heart with my spear gun to
"save the world from monsters." :-(
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/california-man-admitted-killing-his-kids-with-a-spear-gun-in-mexico-said-he-was-enlightened-by-qanon-and-believed-young-victims-had-serpent-dna-criminal-complaint/ar-AANfmh9

-----------------------

Have you been wondering what has happened to our democracy?

YOU MUST VIEW THIS VIDEO: https://youtu.be/mAplGu1RxPg

Senator Sheldon Whitehouse, Democrat from Road Island, delivers his first of
three speeches on court capture by the corporate elite:
https://youtu.be/mAplGu1RxPg . He clearly and articulately explains the
long term strategy of the of right-wing plutocrats' capture of our noble
nation for their own avaricious goals. His three damning speeches are a
clear explanation of how we got to this deplorable place in history.

What can we do about it?

The Move to Amend Coalition https://www.movetoamend.org Is actively working
to end corporate rule, and building a vibrant democracy that is genuinely
accountable to the people, not corporate interests. Please get the word out.

Re: World Economic Forum, Target True Zero is expected to lean heavily toward electric and hydrogen power

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From: jim...@gonzo.specsol.net (Jim Pennino)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
Subject: Re: World Economic Forum, Target True Zero is expected to lean heavily toward electric and hydrogen power
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2021 13:04:30 -0700
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 by: Jim Pennino - Sun, 15 Aug 2021 20:04 UTC

Larry Dighera <LDighera@att.net> wrote:
>
> On Mon, 9 Aug 2021 16:32:47 -0700, Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net>
> wrote:
>
>>Larry Dighera <LDighera@att.net> wrote:
>>> On Sat, 7 Aug 2021 18:00:10 -0700, Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>
> [snip]
>
>>> I was hoping you might acknowledge the viability of LH2 for electric
>>> aviation in light of the new high temperature fuel-cell technological
>>> breakthrough information I provided.
>>
>>Possibility, with a lot more research yes, viability any time soon, no.
>>
>
> Agreed. Some of the recent "breakthrough"technologies I have suggested
> require further development. Apparently that development is underway,
> however.
>

And likely will be for a LONG time.

>>
>>Any day now we will have unlimited fusion energy, a cure for the common
>>cold, and peace in the Middle East.
>>
>>And it has been that way for over a half century.
>>
>
> I would wager you were equally skeptical about the likelihood of electric
> automobiles being accepted worldwide by governments and the public before
> Elon Musk proved that they can be stylish, reasonably non-polluting, and
> very fast.

As well as very expensive, prone to catching fire, taking a
comparatively long time to refuel, needing a battery replacement
that is a significant fraction of the original vehicle cost after 6
years or so, and requiring government subsidies to make them anywhere
near affordable by most people.

> You skepticism is why I value your input on this topic. You are
> knowledgeable and difficult to convince; that drives me to research the
> points you make, and learn something in the process.
>
>>
>>> On that subject, here is a technology that bypasses the necessity for
>>> electricity to power electrolysis of water into its constituent H2 and O2
>>> gases.
>>
>>I read about this, yet another, pie in the sky scheme long ago.
>>
>>That's never going to happen other than in some niche applications for a
>>LOT of reasons.
>>
>
> I believe the report indicates that the direct photo-electrolysis of water
> into its constituent gases is currently working in the laboratory.

There are LOTS of things "currently working in the laboratory", but that
does not mean they will ever be actually useful.

> Regardless of how efficient it is or is not, a passive solar electrolysis
> cell fueled solely by sunshine could deliver H2 and O2 whenever and wherever
> the sun hits it. That's about as clean H2 production as I can imagine.

It would by the height of folly to disregard efficiency.

Remember just a few years back when alcohol would be the fuel of the
future until inconvenient facts like ALL agriculture would have to be
devoted to alcohol production to achieve it and the price of corn sky
rocketed in places like Mexico?

> Locally sited direct solar hydrolysis coupled with the very high efficiency
> of electric motor technology, and more efficient high temperature fuel-cell
> technology would eliminate the power required to generate H2, and deliver it
> at the "filling station," all without emitting any CO2 or any other
> pollutants.

So you are going to fuel your fuel cell based car with low pressure
hydrogen?

Yeah, that's going to work just great on oh so many levels.

>>
>>Even if you could get it to work on a large scale, you still have the issues
>>of compressing, storing, and transporting the hydrogen, none of which are
>>cheap in terms of energy.
>>
>
> Compressing H2 is not required if a cryocooler is employed to liquefy it;
> LH2 is stored at ambient atmospheric pressure. In the videos at the links I
> included in previous posts, you will see cryocoolers liquefying atmospheric
> nitrogen with only ~150 Watts of energy required.

Yep, all you need now is a VERY well insulated cryo tank and whoever
does the fueling needs a full face shield, safety glasses, insulated or
leather gloves, long-sleeved shirt, and pants without cuffs along with
a bunch of safety training and in some places a certificate of some sort.

BTW, did you bother to get the volume of nitrogen produced with 150 W?

> Alternatively, H2 can be stored in the spaces between solid-matter molecules
> al la Power Paste, or some other similar product.

Or maybe pixie dust...

>
> As mentioned above, on-site hydrogen generation obviates the necessity for
> transporting it, and eliminates the emissions associated with the
> traditional method of trucking fuel to filling stations.

And just where, on your typical filling station, would you put all this
high tech equipment and who monitors it to prevent another Hindenburg
event?

It is also highly unlikely that whoever does the actual fueling will be
someone working for gas station attendant wages.

>>
>>Climate change will destroy civilization, so we better destroy
>>civilization to keep that from happening...
>>
>
> I too believe that we have passed the point of turning the destructive
> environmental trend around as evidenced by the loss of forests:

I guess that just flew right over your head.

It was satire directed at the panic stricken Chicken Little's of the
world.

<snip>

Re: World Economic Forum, Target True Zero is expected to lean heavily toward electric and hydrogen power

<be9d2734-e7fa-4094-a78c-301c72ad7066n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: World Economic Forum, Target True Zero is expected to lean
heavily toward electric and hydrogen power
From: jgrov...@hotmail.com (Geoff Rove)
Injection-Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2021 21:15:51 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
 by: Geoff Rove - Fri, 20 Aug 2021 21:15 UTC

On Sunday, August 15, 2021 at 3:16:06 PM UTC-5, Jim Pennino wrote:
> Larry Dighera <LDig...@att.net> wrote:
> >
> > On Mon, 9 Aug 2021 16:32:47 -0700, Jim Pennino <ji...@gonzo.specsol.net>
> > wrote:
> >
> >>Larry Dighera <LDig...@att.net> wrote:
> >>> On Sat, 7 Aug 2021 18:00:10 -0700, Jim Pennino <ji...@gonzo.specsol.net>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >
> > [snip]
> >
> >>> I was hoping you might acknowledge the viability of LH2 for electric
> >>> aviation in light of the new high temperature fuel-cell technological
> >>> breakthrough information I provided.
> >>
> >>Possibility, with a lot more research yes, viability any time soon, no.
> >>
> >
> > Agreed. Some of the recent "breakthrough"technologies I have suggested
> > require further development. Apparently that development is underway,
> > however.
> >
> And likely will be for a LONG time.
> >>
> >>Any day now we will have unlimited fusion energy, a cure for the common
> >>cold, and peace in the Middle East.
> >>
> >>And it has been that way for over a half century.
> >>
> >
> > I would wager you were equally skeptical about the likelihood of electric
> > automobiles being accepted worldwide by governments and the public before
> > Elon Musk proved that they can be stylish, reasonably non-polluting, and
> > very fast.
> As well as very expensive, prone to catching fire, taking a
> comparatively long time to refuel, needing a battery replacement
> that is a significant fraction of the original vehicle cost after 6
> years or so, and requiring government subsidies to make them anywhere
> near affordable by most people.
> > You skepticism is why I value your input on this topic. You are
> > knowledgeable and difficult to convince; that drives me to research the
> > points you make, and learn something in the process.
> >
> >>
> >>> On that subject, here is a technology that bypasses the necessity for
> >>> electricity to power electrolysis of water into its constituent H2 and O2
> >>> gases.
> >>
> >>I read about this, yet another, pie in the sky scheme long ago.
> >>
> >>That's never going to happen other than in some niche applications for a
> >>LOT of reasons.
> >>
> >
> > I believe the report indicates that the direct photo-electrolysis of water
> > into its constituent gases is currently working in the laboratory.
> There are LOTS of things "currently working in the laboratory", but that
> does not mean they will ever be actually useful.
> > Regardless of how efficient it is or is not, a passive solar electrolysis
> > cell fueled solely by sunshine could deliver H2 and O2 whenever and wherever
> > the sun hits it. That's about as clean H2 production as I can imagine.
> It would by the height of folly to disregard efficiency.
>
> Remember just a few years back when alcohol would be the fuel of the
> future until inconvenient facts like ALL agriculture would have to be
> devoted to alcohol production to achieve it and the price of corn sky
> rocketed in places like Mexico?
> > Locally sited direct solar hydrolysis coupled with the very high efficiency
> > of electric motor technology, and more efficient high temperature fuel-cell
> > technology would eliminate the power required to generate H2, and deliver it
> > at the "filling station," all without emitting any CO2 or any other
> > pollutants.
> So you are going to fuel your fuel cell based car with low pressure
> hydrogen?
>
> Yeah, that's going to work just great on oh so many levels.
> >>
> >>Even if you could get it to work on a large scale, you still have the issues
> >>of compressing, storing, and transporting the hydrogen, none of which are
> >>cheap in terms of energy.
> >>
> >
> > Compressing H2 is not required if a cryocooler is employed to liquefy it;
> > LH2 is stored at ambient atmospheric pressure. In the videos at the links I
> > included in previous posts, you will see cryocoolers liquefying atmospheric
> > nitrogen with only ~150 Watts of energy required.
> Yep, all you need now is a VERY well insulated cryo tank and whoever
> does the fueling needs a full face shield, safety glasses, insulated or
> leather gloves, long-sleeved shirt, and pants without cuffs along with
> a bunch of safety training and in some places a certificate of some sort.
>
> BTW, did you bother to get the volume of nitrogen produced with 150 W?
> > Alternatively, H2 can be stored in the spaces between solid-matter molecules
> > al la Power Paste, or some other similar product.
> Or maybe pixie dust...
> >
> > As mentioned above, on-site hydrogen generation obviates the necessity for
> > transporting it, and eliminates the emissions associated with the
> > traditional method of trucking fuel to filling stations.
> And just where, on your typical filling station, would you put all this
> high tech equipment and who monitors it to prevent another Hindenburg
> event?
>
> It is also highly unlikely that whoever does the actual fueling will be
> someone working for gas station attendant wages.
> >>
> >>Climate change will destroy civilization, so we better destroy
> >>civilization to keep that from happening...
> >>
> >
> > I too believe that we have passed the point of turning the destructive
> > environmental trend around as evidenced by the loss of forests:
> I guess that just flew right over your head.
>
> It was satire directed at the panic stricken Chicken Little's of the
> world.
>
>
> <snip>

What if all the waste has already been sent to Nevada covertly??

Re: World Economic Forum, Target True Zero is expected to lean heavily toward electric and hydrogen power

<bri5vh-rium.ln1@gonzo.specsol.net>

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From: jim...@gonzo.specsol.net (Jim Pennino)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
Subject: Re: World Economic Forum, Target True Zero is expected to lean heavily toward electric and hydrogen power
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2021 14:19:09 -0700
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 by: Jim Pennino - Fri, 20 Aug 2021 21:19 UTC

Geoff Rove <jgrove24@hotmail.com> wrote:

<snip>
>
> What if all the waste has already been sent to Nevada covertly??

What if frogs had ballistic parachutes?

Re: World Economic Forum, Target True Zero is expected to lean heavily toward electric and hydrogen power

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From: LDigh...@att.net (Larry Dighera)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
Subject: Re: World Economic Forum, Target True Zero is expected to lean heavily toward electric and hydrogen power
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2021 15:13:58 -0700
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 by: Larry Dighera - Fri, 20 Aug 2021 22:13 UTC

On Fri, 20 Aug 2021 14:19:09 -0700, Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net>
wrote:

>Geoff Rove <jgrove24@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>>
>> What if all the waste has already been sent to Nevada covertly??
>
>What if frogs had ballistic parachutes?
>

What if there were a church of scientific enlightenment?

“Irrational beliefs ultimately lead to irrational acts.”
–LDighera

Re: World Economic Forum, Target True Zero is expected to lean heavily toward electric and hydrogen power

<rsm5vh-pj1n.ln1@gonzo.specsol.net>

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From: jim...@gonzo.specsol.net (Jim Pennino)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
Subject: Re: World Economic Forum, Target True Zero is expected to lean heavily toward electric and hydrogen power
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2021 15:28:13 -0700
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 by: Jim Pennino - Fri, 20 Aug 2021 22:28 UTC

Larry Dighera <LDighera@att.net> wrote:
> On Fri, 20 Aug 2021 14:19:09 -0700, Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net>
> wrote:
>
>>Geoff Rove <jgrove24@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>>
>>> What if all the waste has already been sent to Nevada covertly??
>>
>>What if frogs had ballistic parachutes?
>>
>
> What if there were a church of scientific enlightenment?

Religion and science are orthogonal.

Re: World Economic Forum, Target True Zero is expected to lean heavily toward electric and hydrogen power

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From: LDigh...@att.net (Larry Dighera)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
Subject: Re: World Economic Forum, Target True Zero is expected to lean heavily toward electric and hydrogen power
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2021 15:54:02 -0700
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 by: Larry Dighera - Fri, 20 Aug 2021 22:54 UTC

On Fri, 20 Aug 2021 15:28:13 -0700, Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net>
wrote:

>Larry Dighera <LDighera@att.net> wrote:
>> On Fri, 20 Aug 2021 14:19:09 -0700, Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>Geoff Rove <jgrove24@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> <snip>
>>>>
>>>> What if all the waste has already been sent to Nevada covertly??
>>>
>>>What if frogs had ballistic parachutes?
>>>
>>
>> What if there were a church of scientific enlightenment?
>
>Religion and science are orthogonal.
>

What if there were a neurophysiological structural difference between
individuals with a tendency toward emotionally dominant behavior and those
with the curiosity and courage to believe in the empirical facts they
observe?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
https://youtu.be/kI-un8rHP14
Gail Saltz: So I think what’s really fascinating is that there have been a
number of recent studies looking at brain structural differences between
liberals and conservatives. And what’s been found in several studies is that
liberals tend to have a larger anterior cingulate gyrus. That is an area
that is responsible for taking in new information and that impact of the new
information on decision making or choices. Conservatives tended on the whole
to have a larger right amygdala. Amygdala being a deeper brain structure
that processes more emotional information - specifically fear based
information. So it’s really responsible for the flight or fright response.
And this isn’t everybody. It’s not black and white and of course then, you
know, what about all of the people in the middle? But basically the study
showed that if you just based it on brain structural size different you
could predict who would be a conservative and who would be a liberal with
frequency of 71.6 percent.

71.6 percent is a pretty high ability to predict who is a conservative and
who is a liberal just from brain structure. When you look at what your
parents were in terms of predicting what you might be in terms of
conservative versus liberal, that enabled you to predict in studies at a
rate of 69.5 percent. So very close. Not quite as good and why is that
interesting? It’s because the brain is plastic. So the question as to
whether you have a brain structure to start with that informs whether you
will be a liberal or conservative or whether the formation of certain
thoughts from your parents for example shapes your brain structure. Because
the brain is plastic and ever changing, particularly in youth. So does
thinking certain thoughts or predominantly let’s say utilizing your right
amygdala versus your anterior cingulate gyrus inform the growth of those
areas and therefore help you predict later who is liberal and who is
conservative.

So in terms of interpreting the meaning of different sized structures for a
liberal versus a conservative I think you have to look at what that area is
predominantly responsible for. So for instance for conservatives if you’re
right amygdala is enlarged and that’s the fear processing area you would
expect maybe choices or decisions or character and personality to be more
informed by a response to a fearful situation. So for example conservatives
in fact in personality studies do tend to rate higher in areas of stability,
loyalty, not liking change, being more religiously involved in terms of
decision making, having that rate higher for them in making certain choices.
And if you look at liberals from a personality character standpoint you’re
going to find stronger ratings in terms of liking change wanting to actually
base decision making on new information, on science information. And so
those differences are not surprising in light of these brain structural
differences.

Being a liberal or being a conservative really is not black and white. It’s
really a bell shaped curve where, you know, someone who considers themselves
conservative may be far less conservative so to speak than someone else who
still calls themselves a conservative. And that bell shaped curve continues
all the way through where in the middle there may be a large group that
calls themselves independents.

What we don’t know is whether that has to do with differences in brain
structure and so would we see in independents, no one’s does that study to
say oh, independents don’t show any differences in brain structure or any
differences in say risk taking reaction. So we don’t know for sure what that
means but I think it’s fair to say that even when we looked at differences
in brain structure with a reliability of 71.6 percent that still leaves, you
know, a very larger number that don’t fit into that category. So, you know,
where do they fall out? Are they more likely to be independents in their
mind? We don’t know the answer to that but certainly, you know, these are
not hard and fast rules. This is not diagnostic science and people who are
independent obviously have certain characteristics I’ll say of both sides
are somewhere just like they sound in the middle.

I think by understanding what’s going on structurally in the brain and
functionally in the brain we can better understand what informs people’s
very strong opinions that ultimately inform our political system, right.
Because it’s one person, one vote. And in trying to change people’s minds I
think everybody has to look at what’s behind the ability to change a mind.
Is it really changeable?

When we look at voting and changing minds and say political advertising you
have to recognize that all of that new information always comes in through
the prism of your brain. Which means that what I say to you versus you may
be heard differently even though I’ve said the same thing. So it comes in
through the prism of does what you said make me nervous and afraid and
therefore I’m going to resort to my old standby I don’t want to change my
decision? Or am I going to hear the same information and say oh, that’s
novel. I have a receptivity to novel information. Therefore that’s
interesting to me and I’m going to think about whether I might change my
mind based on that new information.

I think that’s what the science is basically saying to us that there are
going to be some people who are going to hear the information and retreat to
their original thinking. And other people are going to hear new information
and say that really does change my mind.

If we’re trying to have a society that will work in its own best interest
let’s say then we do want to be able to communicate with one another. And so
if you’re a liberal and say you want to talk to a conservative about gay
marriage you want to have in your mind how it might still speak to loyalty,
stability and religious belief in some way. You want to have those ideas
inform your communication as opposed to simply saying but, you know, this
percentage of the population is homosexual and therefore, you know, we
should consider whether everybody should have those same rights. And, you
know, science shows it’s not a choice. It’s simply a fact you’re gay or not
gay. And therefore shouldn’t those people have the same rights? That’s not
the best way to appeal perhaps to a conservative on this issue.

You want to appeal to them in terms of how for example marital rules or
history might be maintained and not really altered for those who are in
let’s say a “traditional marriage.” How it won’t interrupt the fabric for
example of their lives, of the rules that they adhere to. Those kinds of
things would be more appealing to them whether or not that might be the most
appealing argument to you as a liberal.

The truth is a conservative is more likely to be able to appeal to a liberal
using novel new information that is science based and showing certain facts
and allowing for it not necessarily to be purely religiously based. That not
be the rule system so to speak. By being empathically understanding. And by
that I don’t mean sympathetically understanding. I mean truly being able to
stand in the other person’s shoes and have some insight into where their
brain is directing them and appealing to that argument. So if you are a
conservative you will want to appeal with new information because liberals
are more novelty seeking potentially. And often science based is a good way
to present new information.

Part of what’s difficult in terms of what I’m seeing now is that actually
people are tending to double down on their own style and what appeals to
their own group of thinkers. And that is increasingly preventing the kind of
communication that would be important to our future so that we can’t so to
speak cross the aisle because it would require trying on for size the
thought pattern of the other group. And that’s hard to do. Let me say that
is difficult to do. So if your amygdala is screaming at you, you know, run
for the hills or double down and fight it’s hard to say well, let me take a
step back and not have a fear based reaction but instead present the science
or present the new information.

A good example would be that of gun ownership. If I speak about gun
ownership to a liberal group they automatically have thoughts probably
about, particularly if they’re in an urban area, crime and danger because
statistically that is what they have been privy to. The information has been
given to them about how many homicides are committed, who is, you know,
dying by gun violence, et cetera.


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Re: World Economic Forum, Target True Zero is expected to lean heavily toward electric and hydrogen power

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From: jim...@gonzo.specsol.net (Jim Pennino)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
Subject: Re: World Economic Forum, Target True Zero is expected to lean heavily toward electric and hydrogen power
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2021 17:04:45 -0700
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 by: Jim Pennino - Sat, 21 Aug 2021 00:04 UTC

Larry Dighera <LDighera@att.net> wrote:
> On Fri, 20 Aug 2021 15:28:13 -0700, Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net>
> wrote:
>
>>Larry Dighera <LDighera@att.net> wrote:
>>> On Fri, 20 Aug 2021 14:19:09 -0700, Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Geoff Rove <jgrove24@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> <snip>
>>>>>
>>>>> What if all the waste has already been sent to Nevada covertly??
>>>>
>>>>What if frogs had ballistic parachutes?
>>>>
>>>
>>> What if there were a church of scientific enlightenment?
>>
>>Religion and science are orthogonal.
>>
>
> What if there were a neurophysiological structural difference between
> individuals with a tendency toward emotionally dominant behavior and those
> with the curiosity and courage to believe in the empirical facts they
> observe?

What about it and what does it have to do with piloting?

<snip>

Re: World Economic Forum, Target True Zero is expected to lean heavily toward electric and hydrogen power

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From: LDigh...@att.net (Larry Dighera)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
Subject: Re: World Economic Forum, Target True Zero is expected to lean heavily toward electric and hydrogen power
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 by: Larry Dighera - Sat, 21 Aug 2021 01:22 UTC

On Fri, 20 Aug 2021 17:04:45 -0700, Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net>
wrote:

>Larry Dighera <LDighera@att.net> wrote:
>> On Fri, 20 Aug 2021 15:28:13 -0700, Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>Larry Dighera <LDighera@att.net> wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 20 Aug 2021 14:19:09 -0700, Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Geoff Rove <jgrove24@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> <snip>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What if all the waste has already been sent to Nevada covertly??
>>>>>
>>>>>What if frogs had ballistic parachutes?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> What if there were a church of scientific enlightenment?
>>>
>>>Religion and science are orthogonal.
>>>
>>
>> What if there were a neurophysiological structural difference between
>> individuals with a tendency toward emotionally dominant behavior and those
>> with the curiosity and courage to believe in the empirical facts they
>> observe?
>
>
>What about it and what does it have to do with piloting?
>
><snip>
>

Oh. I thought the topic had wandered so from piloting till it was absurd.

I expected a more cogent response from you, Jim.

..

Re: World Economic Forum, Target True Zero is expected to lean heavily toward electric and hydrogen power

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Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
Subject: Re: World Economic Forum, Target True Zero is expected to lean heavily toward electric and hydrogen power
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 by: Jim Pennino - Sat, 21 Aug 2021 01:39 UTC

Larry Dighera <LDighera@att.net> wrote:
> On Fri, 20 Aug 2021 17:04:45 -0700, Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net>
> wrote:
>
>>Larry Dighera <LDighera@att.net> wrote:
>>> On Fri, 20 Aug 2021 15:28:13 -0700, Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Larry Dighera <LDighera@att.net> wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, 20 Aug 2021 14:19:09 -0700, Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>Geoff Rove <jgrove24@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <snip>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What if all the waste has already been sent to Nevada covertly??
>>>>>>
>>>>>>What if frogs had ballistic parachutes?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> What if there were a church of scientific enlightenment?
>>>>
>>>>Religion and science are orthogonal.
>>>>
>>>
>>> What if there were a neurophysiological structural difference between
>>> individuals with a tendency toward emotionally dominant behavior and those
>>> with the curiosity and courage to believe in the empirical facts they
>>> observe?
>>
>>
>>What about it and what does it have to do with piloting?
>>
>><snip>
>>
>
>
> Oh. I thought the topic had wandered so from piloting till it was absurd.
>
> I expected a more cogent response from you, Jim.
As soon as I hit the words "liberal" and "conservative" I totally shut
down.

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