Hi everyone

Reason for saying "in UK" is there's an orthodoxy which means it's
difficult to get other than Ar/20%CO2.
So for the rest of the world this "wow!" moment would come as a
surprise.

I worked at a highly-skilled high-specification place and they did
have Ar/15%CO2.
Can get clearly formed spray transfer.
Do not get "cannonball" spatters.
Delight to use

(eg. with Ar/20%CO2, for the time spent welding, you often spend half
as much time again chipping off spatter - even have an air power tool
to to it it's such a common matter)

Is Ar/12%CO2 better still?
Problem we'd have here is most weld qualification with "M21" gas - so
Ar/15%CO2 good, but Ar/12%CO2 is in category "M20" and would need new
WPQR and WPS.
If all dip-transfer MIG/GMAW is positional eg. v-up, or low thickness
(eg. butt/girth welding RHS's together), is Ar/12%CO2 even better?
Spray transfer - even clearer defined? Or same as with 15%CO2?
"bite" with dip-transfer still good for positional?

On 5/31/2021 3:14 AM, Richard Smith wrote:
> Hi everyone
>
> Reason for saying "in UK" is there's an orthodoxy which means it's
> difficult to get other than Ar/20%CO2.
> So for the rest of the world this "wow!" moment would come as a
> surprise.
>
> I worked at a highly-skilled high-specification place and they did
> have Ar/15%CO2.
> Can get clearly formed spray transfer.
> Do not get "cannonball" spatters.
> Delight to use
>
> (eg. with Ar/20%CO2, for the time spent welding, you often spend half
> as much time again chipping off spatter - even have an air power tool
> to to it it's such a common matter)
>
> Is Ar/12%CO2 better still?
> Problem we'd have here is most weld qualification with "M21" gas - so
> Ar/15%CO2 good, but Ar/12%CO2 is in category "M20" and would need new
> WPQR and WPS.
> If all dip-transfer MIG/GMAW is positional eg. v-up, or low thickness
> (eg. butt/girth welding RHS's together), is Ar/12%CO2 even better?
> Spray transfer - even clearer defined? Or same as with 15%CO2?
> "bite" with dip-transfer still good for positional?
>

I'm just a "hobby welder" and my machine is a light duty Lincoln
Weldpak 100 , but I've been using straight CO2 for years . I don't have
what I consider excessive spatter ... Most MIG users here - including my
neighbor who is a pro weldor - are using 25% CO2 unless they're welding
aluminum , which calls for pure argon . Seems like from what you've
posted here in the past that the industry there isn't willing to try
anything new ... any chance you could rig a setup that would allow you
the mix your gasses at different proportions to test your hypotheses ?
--
Snag
Race only matters to racists ...

On 31/05/2021 09:14, Richard Smith wrote:
> Hi everyone
>
> Reason for saying "in UK" is there's an orthodoxy which means it's
> difficult to get other than Ar/20%CO2.
> So for the rest of the world this "wow!" moment would come as a
> surprise.
>
> I worked at a highly-skilled high-specification place and they did
> have Ar/15%CO2.
> Can get clearly formed spray transfer.
> Do not get "cannonball" spatters.
> Delight to use
>
> (eg. with Ar/20%CO2, for the time spent welding, you often spend half
> as much time again chipping off spatter - even have an air power tool
> to to it it's such a common matter)
>
> Is Ar/12%CO2 better still?
> Problem we'd have here is most weld qualification with "M21" gas - so
> Ar/15%CO2 good, but Ar/12%CO2 is in category "M20" and would need new
> WPQR and WPS.
> If all dip-transfer MIG/GMAW is positional eg. v-up, or low thickness
> (eg. butt/girth welding RHS's together), is Ar/12%CO2 even better?
> Spray transfer - even clearer defined? Or same as with 15%CO2?
> "bite" with dip-transfer still good for positional?

I use BOC Argoshield light which is 93% Ar, 5% CO2, 2% O2 I've never had
a problem getting it. The Argoshield Universal is 86% Ar, 12% CO2, and
2% O2 I've no idea about availability as I've never needed to ask.

Snag - is commercial welding - fine line with productivity and cost.
With a big industrial welding machine on 3-phase power, you can and
will be using spray transfer a lot of the time. Around 8kW at the
arc. More into the machine.
This gas optimisation is about getting good spray transfer, which
starts at 240A 29V - lowest commercial spray transfer condition and a
nice condition actually.

David Billington <djb@invalid.com> writes:

> On 31/05/2021 09:14, Richard Smith wrote:
>> ...
>> "bite" with dip-transfer still good for positional?
>
> I use BOC Argoshield light which is 93% Ar, 5% CO2, 2% O2 I've never
> had a problem getting it. The Argoshield Universal is 86% Ar, 12% CO2,
> and 2% O2 I've no idea about availability as I've never needed to ask.

OK - thanks for relating experience.
It's the "Argoshield Light / Medium / Heavy", a catchy marketing
slogan from some time ago, which is exactly why we have this problem,
with it becoming an orthodoxy.
There was only dip transfer then, which contributed to getting it
fairly much the wrong way around.
The problem is most have qualified their welds - done WPQR tests, with
all the costs of witnessing and tests - with Ar 20%CO2 (2%O2) - which
is in gas category "M21".
Ar 12%CO2 (2%O2) is in gas category "M20". Which I suspect these days
you'd want. But there's no way for me to know. Requalifying welds -
expensive. "Painted into corner". A situation that's more political
than technical?

I don't know if with 5%CO2 you'd have enough "bite" to do dip transfer
on positional thick plate and box-sections (SHS, RHS - efficient low
thicknesses compared to plate and beam)?
Honestly - never chance to try, and no-one to ask.

On 02/06/2021 07:08, Richard Smith wrote:
> David Billington <djb@invalid.com> writes:
>
>> On 31/05/2021 09:14, Richard Smith wrote:
>>> ...
>>> "bite" with dip-transfer still good for positional?
>> I use BOC Argoshield light which is 93% Ar, 5% CO2, 2% O2 I've never
>> had a problem getting it. The Argoshield Universal is 86% Ar, 12% CO2,
>> and 2% O2 I've no idea about availability as I've never needed to ask.
> OK - thanks for relating experience.
> It's the "Argoshield Light / Medium / Heavy", a catchy marketing
> slogan from some time ago, which is exactly why we have this problem,
> with it becoming an orthodoxy.
> There was only dip transfer then, which contributed to getting it
> fairly much the wrong way around.
> The problem is most have qualified their welds - done WPQR tests, with
> all the costs of witnessing and tests - with Ar 20%CO2 (2%O2) - which
> is in gas category "M21".
> Ar 12%CO2 (2%O2) is in gas category "M20". Which I suspect these days
> you'd want. But there's no way for me to know. Requalifying welds -
> expensive. "Painted into corner". A situation that's more political
> than technical?
>
> I don't know if with 5%CO2 you'd have enough "bite" to do dip transfer
> on positional thick plate and box-sections (SHS, RHS - efficient low
> thicknesses compared to plate and beam)?
> Honestly - never chance to try, and no-one to ask.
>
I don't know how long the Argoshield gases have been around it's just
what I use currently. My venerable old Eland MIG is only 160A so dip
transfer only AFAIK but it suits my needs fine. The only time I've had
the pleasure of trying spray transfer was at a small welding show back
in about 1985 in Bristol and it worked great but I don't need to weld
thick stuff very often, when I do I'll either use MMA  or farm it out.

David Billington <djb@invalid.com> writes:

> On 02/06/2021 07:08, Richard Smith wrote:
>> David Billington <djb@invalid.com> writes:
>>
>>> On 31/05/2021 09:14, Richard Smith wrote:
>>>> ...
>>>...
>>...
> I don't know how long the Argoshield gases have been around it's just
> what I use currently. My venerable old Eland MIG is only 160A so dip
> transfer only AFAIK but it suits my needs fine. The only time I've had
> the pleasure of trying spray transfer was at a small welding show back
> in about 1985 in Bristol and it worked great but I don't need to weld
> thick stuff very often, when I do I'll either use MMA  or farm it out.

Commercially - if "spray" would be advantageous, do it, obviously.
* penetration / fusion - very adequare - not absurd - about
"Goldilocks quantity" = just right
* * no spatter * - not spending ages tidying-up / de-spattering
* washes away oxides - totally satisfactory welds low Execution Class
2 over light off-the-mill black scale and weldable primer.
* smooth low-effort welding - very radiatant arc illuminates area for
easy view of weld
* etc.

By the way - best have a long shroud on torch which is optimum for
spray.

Spray puts a lot of heat load on the torch.
So one of
* water-cooled torch
* big spray-capable air cooled torch
* only spray where necessary, dip transfer when can get away with it -
and "enhanced air cooling" - puncture a fine hole through a plastic
bottle top, fill with clean water, and between runs squeeze bottle
to make "spider's web strand" jet of water onto air-cooling fins of
torch until stops evaporating

Reminds me I have come a long way, even if I am aware there is still
so much to learn - only know a fraction of what someone does if have
been a welder non-stop since leaving school.

> ...
> I don't need to weld thick stuff very often, when I do I'll either
> use MMA ...

David - sounds like a very good technically sound choice.
"stick"/SMAW has that advantage.
'tother advantage is - while "stick"'s doing nothing, it's costing
nothing. Good for infrequently used process, obviouisly.
Whereas MIG/GMAW - gas bottle hire - need regular work to justify it.
Well, you know all this. Just agreeing, for what it's worth.
Rich S

On 6/5/2021 1:07 AM, Richard Smith wrote:
>> ...
>> I don't need to weld thick stuff very often, when I do I'll either
>> use MMA ...
>
> David - sounds like a very good technically sound choice.
> "stick"/SMAW has that advantage.
> 'tother advantage is - while "stick"'s doing nothing, it's costing
> nothing. Good for infrequently used process, obviouisly.
> Whereas MIG/GMAW - gas bottle hire - need regular work to justify it.
> Well, you know all this. Just agreeing, for what it's worth.
> Rich S
>

Every bottle I have here is owned , not leased ... I leased an oxygen
bottle for a couple of years because the supplier (NLR out of north
Little Rock Ar) refused to refill my 20 cf bottles . When I found a
supplier that would and returned that leased bottle , the new manager
GAVE me a couple of empty 20's as an apology for the previous manager's
being an asshole . They could have filled MY bottles rather than swap
them , but he was an asshole who didn't like "small guys" .
--
Snag
Race only matters to racists ...

"Snag" wrote in message news:s9fofj$53a$1@dont-email.me...

On 6/5/2021 1:07 AM, Richard Smith wrote:
>> ...
>> I don't need to weld thick stuff very often, when I do I'll either
>> use MMA ...
>
> David - sounds like a very good technically sound choice.
> "stick"/SMAW has that advantage.
> 'tother advantage is - while "stick"'s doing nothing, it's costing
> nothing. Good for infrequently used process, obviouisly.
> Whereas MIG/GMAW - gas bottle hire - need regular work to justify it.
> Well, you know all this. Just agreeing, for what it's worth.
> Rich S
>

Every bottle I have here is owned , not leased ... I leased an oxygen
bottle for a couple of years because the supplier (NLR out of north
Little Rock Ar) refused to refill my 20 cf bottles . When I found a
supplier that would and returned that leased bottle , the new manager
GAVE me a couple of empty 20's as an apology for the previous manager's
being an asshole . They could have filled MY bottles rather than swap
them , but he was an asshole who didn't like "small guys" .
--
Snag
Race only matters to racists ...

------------------------
Same here in NH, but the dealers will sell only the smaller portable tanks,
not the industrial sizes.
https://hobbyweld.co.uk/

On 6/5/2021 4:29 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
> "Snag"  wrote in message news:s9fofj$53a$1@dont-email.me...
>
> On 6/5/2021 1:07 AM, Richard Smith wrote:
>>> ...
>>> I don't need to weld thick stuff very often, when I do I'll either
>>> use MMA ...
>>
>> David - sounds like a very good technically sound choice.
>> "stick"/SMAW has that advantage.
>> 'tother advantage is - while "stick"'s doing nothing, it's costing
>> nothing.  Good for infrequently used process, obviouisly.
>> Whereas MIG/GMAW - gas bottle hire - need regular work to justify it.
>> Well, you know all this.  Just agreeing, for what it's worth.
>> Rich S
>>
>
>   Every bottle I have here is owned , not leased ... I leased an oxygen
> bottle for a couple of years because the supplier (NLR out of north
> Little Rock Ar) refused to refill my 20 cf bottles . When I found a
> supplier that would and returned that leased bottle , the new manager
> GAVE me a couple of empty 20's as an apology for the previous manager's
> being an asshole . They could have filled MY bottles rather than swap
> them , but he was an asshole who didn't like "small guys" .

Same here in NH, but the dealers will sell only the smaller portable
tanks, not the industrial sizes.
https://hobbyweld.co.uk/

---------------------------

The only big tank I have is the argon for the TIG welder , it's a 300
cf . CO2 , oxy and acetylene are all the smaller bottles . That's OK
though , I don't use that much of any of them - my last argon bottle
lasted like 3 years . I might use a pair of OA bottles (20 cf O2 , "B"
tank of acetylene) in a year ... especially now that I have a plasma
cutter .
--
Snag
Race only matters to racists ...

On 6/5/2021 8:41 PM, Snag wrote:
> On 6/5/2021 4:29 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
>> "Snag"  wrote in message news:s9fofj$53a$1@dont-email.me...
>>
>> On 6/5/2021 1:07 AM, Richard Smith wrote:
>>>> ...
>>>> I don't need to weld thick stuff very often, when I do I'll either
>>>> use MMA ...
>>>
>>> David - sounds like a very good technically sound choice.
>>> "stick"/SMAW has that advantage.
>>> 'tother advantage is - while "stick"'s doing nothing, it's costing
>>> nothing.  Good for infrequently used process, obviouisly.
>>> Whereas MIG/GMAW - gas bottle hire - need regular work to justify it.
>>> Well, you know all this.  Just agreeing, for what it's worth.
>>> Rich S
>>>
>>
>>    Every bottle I have here is owned , not leased ... I leased an oxygen
>> bottle for a couple of years because the supplier (NLR out of north
>> Little Rock Ar) refused to refill my 20 cf bottles . When I found a
>> supplier that would and returned that leased bottle , the new manager
>> GAVE me a couple of empty 20's as an apology for the previous manager's
>> being an asshole . They could have filled MY bottles rather than swap
>> them , but he was an asshole who didn't like "small guys" .
>
>
> Same here in NH, but the dealers will sell only the smaller portable
> tanks, not the industrial sizes.
> https://hobbyweld.co.uk/
>
> ---------------------------
>
>  The only big tank I have is the argon for the TIG welder , it's a 300
> cf . CO2 , oxy and acetylene are all the smaller bottles . That's OK
> though , I don't use that much of any of them - my last argon bottle
> lasted like 3 years . I might use a pair of OA bottles (20 cf O2 , "B"
> tank of acetylene) in a year ... especially now that I have a plasma
> cutter .

I am a big fan of owner bottles. I have several, and will probably get
a couple more.

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

On 6/1/2021 10:52 PM, Richard Smith wrote:
> Snag - is commercial welding - fine line with productivity and cost.
> With a big industrial welding machine on 3-phase power, you can and
> will be using spray transfer a lot of the time. Around 8kW at the
> arc. More into the machine.
> This gas optimisation is about getting good spray transfer, which
> starts at 240A 29V - lowest commercial spray transfer condition and a
> nice condition actually.
>

I think Snag was talking about setting up a gas mixing setup to test
your ideas. I have not seen one, but I seem to recall people talking
about having such a rig right here on this group in years past. They
hook up two bottles and the rig mixes it to give you the desired ratio.

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> writes:

> On 6/1/2021 10:52 PM, Richard Smith wrote:
>> Snag - is commercial welding - fine line with productivity and cost.
>> With a big industrial welding machine on 3-phase power, you can and
>> will be using spray transfer a lot of the time. Around 8kW at the
>> arc. More into the machine.
>> This gas optimisation is about getting good spray transfer, which
>> starts at 240A 29V - lowest commercial spray transfer condition and a
>> nice condition actually.
>>
>
>
> I think Snag was talking about setting up a gas mixing setup to test
> your ideas. I have not seen one, but I seem to recall people talking
> about having such a rig right here on this group in years past. They
> hook up two bottles and the rig mixes it to give you the desired
> ratio.
>
>
> --
> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
> https://www.avg.com

Oh if I've misread his post and said something skewy I extend
apologies to Snag.

On 8/26/2021 3:30 PM, Richard Smith wrote:
> Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> writes:
>
>> On 6/1/2021 10:52 PM, Richard Smith wrote:
>>> Snag - is commercial welding - fine line with productivity and cost.
>>> With a big industrial welding machine on 3-phase power, you can and
>>> will be using spray transfer a lot of the time. Around 8kW at the
>>> arc. More into the machine.
>>> This gas optimisation is about getting good spray transfer, which
>>> starts at 240A 29V - lowest commercial spray transfer condition and a
>>> nice condition actually.
>>>
>>
>>
>> I think Snag was talking about setting up a gas mixing setup to test
>> your ideas. I have not seen one, but I seem to recall people talking
>> about having such a rig right here on this group in years past. They
>> hook up two bottles and the rig mixes it to give you the desired
>> ratio.
>>
>>
>> --
>> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
>> https://www.avg.com
>
> Oh if I've misread his post and said something skewy I extend
> apologies to Snag.
>

Bob is right about what I meant , and no apology needed . What you
need is 2 (or more) flow meters working at the same pressure , you
adjust the flow meters to the desired proportion - say 20 cfh Ar and 10
cfh CO2 would give you 66/33 . You can regulate the actual gas flow
downstream , the critical factor is the ratio from each source .
--
Snag
Race only matters to racists ...