On Monday, December 6, 2021 at 6:36:54 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
> On Mon, 6 Dec 2021 16:56:01 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Monday, December 6, 2021 at 4:39:34 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
> >> On Mon, 6 Dec 2021 13:09:45 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> >> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> >On 12/6/2021 10:56 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> We can finally see Fauci going to prison as his illegal insider trading is prosecuted.
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >Let's start recording these predictions, OK?
> >> It's going to be a L-o-n-g list.
> >
> >Have you ever considered going into slave trading to implement your lack of military retirement pay that you said you didn't get?
> Tommy, I don't need to trade slaves, I've got all the money I need. We
> have the Bangkok house, 2 story 3 bedroom, and the "Country house"
> again 3 bedroom, 2 story. The car is only a year old, no debts at all,
> not even credit cards. We also own, as an investment, a rather large
> "house lot" in a very "up market" housing area and, unlike you,
> sufficient cash in hand that I don't have to whine and complain about
> the cost of groceries.

And all on the backs of slaves.

On Monday, December 6, 2021 at 6:55:28 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
> On Mon, 6 Dec 2021 17:25:56 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Monday, December 6, 2021 at 5:02:52 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
> >> On Mon, 6 Dec 2021 07:34:35 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
> >> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >On Sunday, December 5, 2021 at 9:57:54 AM UTC-8, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> >> On Sun, 05 Dec 2021 08:31:46 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >> >And I do read that
> >> >> >"During the 1947–1949 Palestine war, many Bedouin switched sides to
> >> >> >join the Zionist forces in opposing the invasion by the regular Arab
> >> >> >armies. Negev Bedouins, a Muslim minority which includes about 12% of
> >> >> >Israeli Arabs, tend to identify more as Israelis than other Arab
> >> >> >citizens of Israel"
> >> >> >
> >> >> >But is 12% "MOST"?
> >> >> That's not quite what happened. When Israel declared its
> >> >> independence, the surrounding Arabs declared that they would deport or
> >> >> exterminate all the Israeli's from Palestine. Just one problem. The
> >> >> invading Arabs had a difficult time identifying the Arabs that favored
> >> >> Israeli rule (because they had family, homes, jobs and businesses in
> >> >> Israel). To make things easier for them, the invading Arabs announce
> >> >> that all Arabs living in Israel were to temporarily move to the
> >> >> neighboring Arab countries. Any Arabs left behind in Israel were to
> >> >> be considered supporters of Israel and were to be deported or
> >> >> exterminated accordingly. About half left, largely along tribal
> >> >> dividing lines:
> >> >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_exodus>
> >> >> Eventually, the Israeli side survived the war, creating an awkward
> >> >> situation for the 700,000 Arabs who had left Israel. They wanted to
> >> >> return to their former homes, but Israel thought otherwise. In
> >> >> response to their disloyalty, Israel didn't want them back, thus
> >> >> creating the Palestinian refugee mess. Since the refugees were mostly
> >> >> from the wrong tribes, the Arabs also didn't want them.
> >> >
> >> >Jeff again is telling us what is going on in the Holy Land and why. Hey, why don't you look everything up on Google and then explain it to us as if we couldn't look there and see the utter bullshit of it all? AFTER the Six Day War, Palestinians on the West Bank STILL were fleeing to Israel because they were much safer and could live more peacefully in Israel than they could in Palestine. They are not allowed the vote in Israel but they weren't allowed a say in anything in Palestine either. So they have gained a peaceful and prosperous life and lost the harassment where the Palestinian authorities were putting missile launchers in the middle of school yards making their own children targets.
> >> >
> >> >Jeff, you are not only stupid but you want everyone else to believe that you know something when they too could use Google and get the same stupid cover-up answers.
> >> Tommy Boy, you keep exposing your ignorance. You say
> >> "AFTER the Six Day War, Palestinians on the West Bank STILL were
> >> fleeing to Israel"???
> >>
> >> But after the 6 day war the west bank WAS Israel, so if a Palestinian
> >> lived on the West Bank he didn't have to flee anywhere to get to
> >> Israel. He was already there.
> >>
> >> (Yet another subject about which our very own Tommy exhibits his
> >> ignorance)
> >
> >John, then explain what the Camp David accords were.
> The Camp David accords, in part, called for the establishment of an
> autonomous self-governing authority in the West Bank. And this
> agreement was condemned by the UN.
>
> And Israel, today, occupies and controls the majority of the area.

So you admit that Palestinians are fleeing the PLA to the much safer Israel..

On Monday, December 6, 2021 at 7:02:22 PM UTC-8, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Mon, 6 Dec 2021 07:34:35 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On Sunday, December 5, 2021 at 9:57:54 AM UTC-8, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> On Sun, 05 Dec 2021 08:31:46 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >> >And I do read that
> >> >"During the 1947–1949 Palestine war, many Bedouin switched sides to
> >> >join the Zionist forces in opposing the invasion by the regular Arab
> >> >armies. Negev Bedouins, a Muslim minority which includes about 12% of
> >> >Israeli Arabs, tend to identify more as Israelis than other Arab
> >> >citizens of Israel"
> >> >
> >> >But is 12% "MOST"?
> >> That's not quite what happened. When Israel declared its
> >> independence, the surrounding Arabs declared that they would deport or
> >> exterminate all the Israeli's from Palestine. Just one problem. The
> >> invading Arabs had a difficult time identifying the Arabs that favored
> >> Israeli rule (because they had family, homes, jobs and businesses in
> >> Israel). To make things easier for them, the invading Arabs announce
> >> that all Arabs living in Israel were to temporarily move to the
> >> neighboring Arab countries. Any Arabs left behind in Israel were to
> >> be considered supporters of Israel and were to be deported or
> >> exterminated accordingly. About half left, largely along tribal
> >> dividing lines:
> >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_exodus>
> >> Eventually, the Israeli side survived the war, creating an awkward
> >> situation for the 700,000 Arabs who had left Israel. They wanted to
> >> return to their former homes, but Israel thought otherwise. In
> >> response to their disloyalty, Israel didn't want them back, thus
> >> creating the Palestinian refugee mess. Since the refugees were mostly
> >> from the wrong tribes, the Arabs also didn't want them.
>
> >Jeff again is telling us what is going on in the Holy Land and why. Hey, why don't you look everything up on Google and then explain it to us as if we couldn't look there and see the utter bullshit of it all? AFTER the Six Day War, Palestinians on the West Bank STILL were fleeing to Israel because they were much safer and could live more peacefully in Israel than they could in Palestine. They are not allowed the vote in Israel but they weren't allowed a say in anything in Palestine either. So they have gained a peaceful and prosperous life and lost the harassment where the Palestinian authorities were putting missile launchers in the middle of school yards making their own children targets.
> >
> >Jeff, you are not only stupid but you want everyone else to believe that you know something when they too could use Google and get the same stupid cover-up answers.
> I don't have the time right now to explain the details and problems
> with your "peaceful" Palestinian return to Israel. My knowledge of
> the situation is out of date and in need of some remedial reading.
> It's all here for your education:
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_return_to_Israel>
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizenship_and_Entry_into_Israel_Law>
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_West_Bank_barrier>

Tell us Jeff - WHEN were you in Palestine to discover all of your knowledge about it?>

On Tuesday, December 7, 2021 at 9:52:14 AM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Monday, December 6, 2021 at 7:02:22 PM UTC-8, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Mon, 6 Dec 2021 07:34:35 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
> > <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >On Sunday, December 5, 2021 at 9:57:54 AM UTC-8, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >> On Sun, 05 Dec 2021 08:31:46 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
> > >> wrote:
> > >> >And I do read that
> > >> >"During the 1947–1949 Palestine war, many Bedouin switched sides to
> > >> >join the Zionist forces in opposing the invasion by the regular Arab
> > >> >armies. Negev Bedouins, a Muslim minority which includes about 12% of
> > >> >Israeli Arabs, tend to identify more as Israelis than other Arab
> > >> >citizens of Israel"
> > >> >
> > >> >But is 12% "MOST"?
> > >> That's not quite what happened. When Israel declared its
> > >> independence, the surrounding Arabs declared that they would deport or
> > >> exterminate all the Israeli's from Palestine. Just one problem. The
> > >> invading Arabs had a difficult time identifying the Arabs that favored
> > >> Israeli rule (because they had family, homes, jobs and businesses in
> > >> Israel). To make things easier for them, the invading Arabs announce
> > >> that all Arabs living in Israel were to temporarily move to the
> > >> neighboring Arab countries. Any Arabs left behind in Israel were to
> > >> be considered supporters of Israel and were to be deported or
> > >> exterminated accordingly. About half left, largely along tribal
> > >> dividing lines:
> > >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_exodus>
> > >> Eventually, the Israeli side survived the war, creating an awkward
> > >> situation for the 700,000 Arabs who had left Israel. They wanted to
> > >> return to their former homes, but Israel thought otherwise. In
> > >> response to their disloyalty, Israel didn't want them back, thus
> > >> creating the Palestinian refugee mess. Since the refugees were mostly
> > >> from the wrong tribes, the Arabs also didn't want them.
> >
> > >Jeff again is telling us what is going on in the Holy Land and why. Hey, why don't you look everything up on Google and then explain it to us as if we couldn't look there and see the utter bullshit of it all? AFTER the Six Day War, Palestinians on the West Bank STILL were fleeing to Israel because they were much safer and could live more peacefully in Israel than they could in Palestine. They are not allowed the vote in Israel but they weren't allowed a say in anything in Palestine either. So they have gained a peaceful and prosperous life and lost the harassment where the Palestinian authorities were putting missile launchers in the middle of school yards making their own children targets.
> > >
> > >Jeff, you are not only stupid but you want everyone else to believe that you know something when they too could use Google and get the same stupid cover-up answers.
> > I don't have the time right now to explain the details and problems
> > with your "peaceful" Palestinian return to Israel. My knowledge of
> > the situation is out of date and in need of some remedial reading.
> > It's all here for your education:
> > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_return_to_Israel>
> > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizenship_and_Entry_into_Israel_Law>
> > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_West_Bank_barrier>
> Tell us Jeff - WHEN were you in Palestine to discover all of your knowledge about it?>

This isn't meant as a direct insult but an indirect one. All of you people who have never done anything in your lives like Jeff and John, think that you actually know something because Google will give you some sort of article that is 100% opinion without one solid fact in it. And to YOU, this is knowledge.

I have done long distance touring by bicycle. I think that Frank has said he has too. And Jay has said that he has. My wife and the three daughters rode coast to coast. Twice and half again to attend the Jr. Olympics.

Jeff, John and Flunkmaster have never done this and reading a Google article about it doesn't tell them shit. So why would they talk about it?

On Tue, 7 Dec 2021 09:45:56 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Monday, December 6, 2021 at 6:36:54 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
>> On Mon, 6 Dec 2021 16:56:01 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Monday, December 6, 2021 at 4:39:34 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
>> >> On Mon, 6 Dec 2021 13:09:45 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>> >> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >On 12/6/2021 10:56 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> We can finally see Fauci going to prison as his illegal insider trading is prosecuted.
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >Let's start recording these predictions, OK?
>> >> It's going to be a L-o-n-g list.
>> >
>> >Have you ever considered going into slave trading to implement your lack of military retirement pay that you said you didn't get?
>> Tommy, I don't need to trade slaves, I've got all the money I need. We
>> have the Bangkok house, 2 story 3 bedroom, and the "Country house"
>> again 3 bedroom, 2 story. The car is only a year old, no debts at all,
>> not even credit cards. We also own, as an investment, a rather large
>> "house lot" in a very "up market" housing area and, unlike you,
>> sufficient cash in hand that I don't have to whine and complain about
>> the cost of groceries.
>
>And all on the backs of slaves.

Slaves? Tommy, you can't even hire a girl, here, to help with the
laundry. Prior to Covid unemployment in Thailand was something like
1%, compared with, what was it? 4%-5% in the U.S.

In numbers that is something like 13.4 million unemployed in "The Land
of Opportunity".

--
Cheers,

John B.

On Tue, 7 Dec 2021 09:50:41 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Monday, December 6, 2021 at 6:55:28 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
>> On Mon, 6 Dec 2021 17:25:56 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Monday, December 6, 2021 at 5:02:52 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
>> >> On Mon, 6 Dec 2021 07:34:35 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
>> >> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >On Sunday, December 5, 2021 at 9:57:54 AM UTC-8, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
>> >> >> On Sun, 05 Dec 2021 08:31:46 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
>> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >> >And I do read that
>> >> >> >"During the 1947–1949 Palestine war, many Bedouin switched sides to
>> >> >> >join the Zionist forces in opposing the invasion by the regular Arab
>> >> >> >armies. Negev Bedouins, a Muslim minority which includes about 12% of
>> >> >> >Israeli Arabs, tend to identify more as Israelis than other Arab
>> >> >> >citizens of Israel"
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >But is 12% "MOST"?
>> >> >> That's not quite what happened. When Israel declared its
>> >> >> independence, the surrounding Arabs declared that they would deport or
>> >> >> exterminate all the Israeli's from Palestine. Just one problem. The
>> >> >> invading Arabs had a difficult time identifying the Arabs that favored
>> >> >> Israeli rule (because they had family, homes, jobs and businesses in
>> >> >> Israel). To make things easier for them, the invading Arabs announce
>> >> >> that all Arabs living in Israel were to temporarily move to the
>> >> >> neighboring Arab countries. Any Arabs left behind in Israel were to
>> >> >> be considered supporters of Israel and were to be deported or
>> >> >> exterminated accordingly. About half left, largely along tribal
>> >> >> dividing lines:
>> >> >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_exodus>
>> >> >> Eventually, the Israeli side survived the war, creating an awkward
>> >> >> situation for the 700,000 Arabs who had left Israel. They wanted to
>> >> >> return to their former homes, but Israel thought otherwise. In
>> >> >> response to their disloyalty, Israel didn't want them back, thus
>> >> >> creating the Palestinian refugee mess. Since the refugees were mostly
>> >> >> from the wrong tribes, the Arabs also didn't want them.
>> >> >
>> >> >Jeff again is telling us what is going on in the Holy Land and why. Hey, why don't you look everything up on Google and then explain it to us as if we couldn't look there and see the utter bullshit of it all? AFTER the Six Day War, Palestinians on the West Bank STILL were fleeing to Israel because they were much safer and could live more peacefully in Israel than they could in Palestine. They are not allowed the vote in Israel but they weren't allowed a say in anything in Palestine either. So they have gained a peaceful and prosperous life and lost the harassment where the Palestinian authorities were putting missile launchers in the middle of school yards making their own children targets.
>> >> >
>> >> >Jeff, you are not only stupid but you want everyone else to believe that you know something when they too could use Google and get the same stupid cover-up answers.
>> >> Tommy Boy, you keep exposing your ignorance. You say
>> >> "AFTER the Six Day War, Palestinians on the West Bank STILL were
>> >> fleeing to Israel"???
>> >>
>> >> But after the 6 day war the west bank WAS Israel, so if a Palestinian
>> >> lived on the West Bank he didn't have to flee anywhere to get to
>> >> Israel. He was already there.
>> >>
>> >> (Yet another subject about which our very own Tommy exhibits his
>> >> ignorance)
>> >
>> >John, then explain what the Camp David accords were.
>> The Camp David accords, in part, called for the establishment of an
>> autonomous self-governing authority in the West Bank. And this
>> agreement was condemned by the UN.
>>
>> And Israel, today, occupies and controls the majority of the area.
>
>So you admit that Palestinians are fleeing the PLA to the much safer Israel.

Admit? I'm not admitting anything. I'm simply pointing out your rather
far fetched argument that "AFTER the Six Day War, Palestinians on the
West Bank STILL were fleeing to Israel"

See Tommy, after the 6 day war the West Bank WAS Israel.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Tue, 7 Dec 2021 13:17:18 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Tuesday, December 7, 2021 at 9:52:14 AM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> On Monday, December 6, 2021 at 7:02:22 PM UTC-8, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
>> > On Mon, 6 Dec 2021 07:34:35 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
>> > <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > >On Sunday, December 5, 2021 at 9:57:54 AM UTC-8, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
>> > >> On Sun, 05 Dec 2021 08:31:46 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
>> > >> wrote:
>> > >> >And I do read that
>> > >> >"During the 1947–1949 Palestine war, many Bedouin switched sides to
>> > >> >join the Zionist forces in opposing the invasion by the regular Arab
>> > >> >armies. Negev Bedouins, a Muslim minority which includes about 12% of
>> > >> >Israeli Arabs, tend to identify more as Israelis than other Arab
>> > >> >citizens of Israel"
>> > >> >
>> > >> >But is 12% "MOST"?
>> > >> That's not quite what happened. When Israel declared its
>> > >> independence, the surrounding Arabs declared that they would deport or
>> > >> exterminate all the Israeli's from Palestine. Just one problem. The
>> > >> invading Arabs had a difficult time identifying the Arabs that favored
>> > >> Israeli rule (because they had family, homes, jobs and businesses in
>> > >> Israel). To make things easier for them, the invading Arabs announce
>> > >> that all Arabs living in Israel were to temporarily move to the
>> > >> neighboring Arab countries. Any Arabs left behind in Israel were to
>> > >> be considered supporters of Israel and were to be deported or
>> > >> exterminated accordingly. About half left, largely along tribal
>> > >> dividing lines:
>> > >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_exodus>
>> > >> Eventually, the Israeli side survived the war, creating an awkward
>> > >> situation for the 700,000 Arabs who had left Israel. They wanted to
>> > >> return to their former homes, but Israel thought otherwise. In
>> > >> response to their disloyalty, Israel didn't want them back, thus
>> > >> creating the Palestinian refugee mess. Since the refugees were mostly
>> > >> from the wrong tribes, the Arabs also didn't want them.
>> >
>> > >Jeff again is telling us what is going on in the Holy Land and why. Hey, why don't you look everything up on Google and then explain it to us as if we couldn't look there and see the utter bullshit of it all? AFTER the Six Day War, Palestinians on the West Bank STILL were fleeing to Israel because they were much safer and could live more peacefully in Israel than they could in Palestine. They are not allowed the vote in Israel but they weren't allowed a say in anything in Palestine either. So they have gained a peaceful and prosperous life and lost the harassment where the Palestinian authorities were putting missile launchers in the middle of school yards making their own children targets.
>> > >
>> > >Jeff, you are not only stupid but you want everyone else to believe that you know something when they too could use Google and get the same stupid cover-up answers.
>> > I don't have the time right now to explain the details and problems
>> > with your "peaceful" Palestinian return to Israel. My knowledge of
>> > the situation is out of date and in need of some remedial reading.
>> > It's all here for your education:
>> > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_return_to_Israel>
>> > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizenship_and_Entry_into_Israel_Law>
>> > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_West_Bank_barrier>
>> Tell us Jeff - WHEN were you in Palestine to discover all of your knowledge about it?>
>
>This isn't meant as a direct insult but an indirect one. All of you people who have never done anything in your lives like Jeff and John, think that you actually know something because Google will give you some sort of article that is 100% opinion without one solid fact in it. And to YOU, this is knowledge.
>
>I have done long distance touring by bicycle. I think that Frank has said he has too. And Jay has said that he has. My wife and the three daughters rode coast to coast. Twice and half again to attend the Jr. Olympics.
>
>Jeff, John and Flunkmaster have never done this and reading a Google article about it doesn't tell them shit. So why would they talk about it?

Tommy Boy, I hate to tell you but the fact that you ride a bicycle
doesn't make you any sort of expert on Israel.

However, your posts regarding the West Bank and Israel certainly do
prove your ignorance of the subject.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Tuesday, December 7, 2021 at 3:17:21 PM UTC-6, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 7, 2021 at 9:52:14 AM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Monday, December 6, 2021 at 7:02:22 PM UTC-8, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Mon, 6 Dec 2021 07:34:35 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
> > > <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >On Sunday, December 5, 2021 at 9:57:54 AM UTC-8, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > >> On Sun, 05 Dec 2021 08:31:46 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
> > > >> wrote:
> > > >> >And I do read that
> > > >> >"During the 1947–1949 Palestine war, many Bedouin switched sides to
> > > >> >join the Zionist forces in opposing the invasion by the regular Arab
> > > >> >armies. Negev Bedouins, a Muslim minority which includes about 12% of
> > > >> >Israeli Arabs, tend to identify more as Israelis than other Arab
> > > >> >citizens of Israel"
> > > >> >
> > > >> >But is 12% "MOST"?
> > > >> That's not quite what happened. When Israel declared its
> > > >> independence, the surrounding Arabs declared that they would deport or
> > > >> exterminate all the Israeli's from Palestine. Just one problem. The
> > > >> invading Arabs had a difficult time identifying the Arabs that favored
> > > >> Israeli rule (because they had family, homes, jobs and businesses in
> > > >> Israel). To make things easier for them, the invading Arabs announce
> > > >> that all Arabs living in Israel were to temporarily move to the
> > > >> neighboring Arab countries. Any Arabs left behind in Israel were to
> > > >> be considered supporters of Israel and were to be deported or
> > > >> exterminated accordingly. About half left, largely along tribal
> > > >> dividing lines:
> > > >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_exodus>
> > > >> Eventually, the Israeli side survived the war, creating an awkward
> > > >> situation for the 700,000 Arabs who had left Israel. They wanted to
> > > >> return to their former homes, but Israel thought otherwise. In
> > > >> response to their disloyalty, Israel didn't want them back, thus
> > > >> creating the Palestinian refugee mess. Since the refugees were mostly
> > > >> from the wrong tribes, the Arabs also didn't want them.
> > >
> > > >Jeff again is telling us what is going on in the Holy Land and why. Hey, why don't you look everything up on Google and then explain it to us as if we couldn't look there and see the utter bullshit of it all? AFTER the Six Day War, Palestinians on the West Bank STILL were fleeing to Israel because they were much safer and could live more peacefully in Israel than they could in Palestine. They are not allowed the vote in Israel but they weren't allowed a say in anything in Palestine either. So they have gained a peaceful and prosperous life and lost the harassment where the Palestinian authorities were putting missile launchers in the middle of school yards making their own children targets.
> > > >
> > > >Jeff, you are not only stupid but you want everyone else to believe that you know something when they too could use Google and get the same stupid cover-up answers.
> > > I don't have the time right now to explain the details and problems
> > > with your "peaceful" Palestinian return to Israel. My knowledge of
> > > the situation is out of date and in need of some remedial reading.
> > > It's all here for your education:
> > > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_return_to_Israel>
> > > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizenship_and_Entry_into_Israel_Law>
> > > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_West_Bank_barrier>
> > Tell us Jeff - WHEN were you in Palestine to discover all of your knowledge about it?>
> This isn't meant as a direct insult but an indirect one. All of you people who have never done anything in your lives like Jeff and John, think that you actually know something because Google will give you some sort of article that is 100% opinion without one solid fact in it. And to YOU, this is knowledge.
>
> I have done long distance touring by bicycle. I think that Frank has said he has too. And Jay has said that he has. My wife and the three daughters rode coast to coast. Twice and half again to attend the Jr. Olympics.
>

I've done some long distance touring in my cycling lifetime. Rode my Trek 520 with panniers and handlebar bag around Europe in summer 1992. Rome to Brussels. About 4000 miles. I kept my computer on miles in Europe. Even though everything was in kilometers. I multiplied and divided by 0.6 all the time to get distances I understood.

I've also ridden week long loaded tours in Colorado and Iowa. And several multi day loaded tours in Iowa. All over the past few decades.

When I see "long distance touring by bicycle" I think of loaded touring on a touring bike carrying panniers front and back and a handlebar bag and stuff on the rear rack. NOT riding an unloaded bike with a vehicle carrying the luggage. Tommy boy, when you claim to have toured across the USA with your wife and daughters or step daughters, were you caring your luggage on your bike with panniers or pulling a bike trailer? Or did you have someone else driving a vehicle carrying the baggage?

> Jeff, John and Flunkmaster have never done this and reading a Google article about it doesn't tell them shit. So why would they talk about it?

So you are saying that Carl Sagan guy and that Neil deGrasse Tyson bum are just flunkys when they talk about space and astronomy and physics? After all, they have never been into space and are not official astronauts who landed on the moon and flew around the earth in space. What shysters!!!!! Good logic Tommy boy.

On Tue, 7 Dec 2021 20:58:24 -0800 (PST), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
<ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Tuesday, December 7, 2021 at 3:17:21 PM UTC-6, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Tuesday, December 7, 2021 at 9:52:14 AM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> > On Monday, December 6, 2021 at 7:02:22 PM UTC-8, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
>> > > On Mon, 6 Dec 2021 07:34:35 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
>> > > <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > > >On Sunday, December 5, 2021 at 9:57:54 AM UTC-8, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
>> > > >> On Sun, 05 Dec 2021 08:31:46 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
>> > > >> wrote:
>> > > >> >And I do read that
>> > > >> >"During the 1947–1949 Palestine war, many Bedouin switched sides to
>> > > >> >join the Zionist forces in opposing the invasion by the regular Arab
>> > > >> >armies. Negev Bedouins, a Muslim minority which includes about 12% of
>> > > >> >Israeli Arabs, tend to identify more as Israelis than other Arab
>> > > >> >citizens of Israel"
>> > > >> >
>> > > >> >But is 12% "MOST"?
>> > > >> That's not quite what happened. When Israel declared its
>> > > >> independence, the surrounding Arabs declared that they would deport or
>> > > >> exterminate all the Israeli's from Palestine. Just one problem. The
>> > > >> invading Arabs had a difficult time identifying the Arabs that favored
>> > > >> Israeli rule (because they had family, homes, jobs and businesses in
>> > > >> Israel). To make things easier for them, the invading Arabs announce
>> > > >> that all Arabs living in Israel were to temporarily move to the
>> > > >> neighboring Arab countries. Any Arabs left behind in Israel were to
>> > > >> be considered supporters of Israel and were to be deported or
>> > > >> exterminated accordingly. About half left, largely along tribal
>> > > >> dividing lines:
>> > > >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_exodus>
>> > > >> Eventually, the Israeli side survived the war, creating an awkward
>> > > >> situation for the 700,000 Arabs who had left Israel. They wanted to
>> > > >> return to their former homes, but Israel thought otherwise. In
>> > > >> response to their disloyalty, Israel didn't want them back, thus
>> > > >> creating the Palestinian refugee mess. Since the refugees were mostly
>> > > >> from the wrong tribes, the Arabs also didn't want them.
>> > >
>> > > >Jeff again is telling us what is going on in the Holy Land and why. Hey, why don't you look everything up on Google and then explain it to us as if we couldn't look there and see the utter bullshit of it all? AFTER the Six Day War, Palestinians on the West Bank STILL were fleeing to Israel because they were much safer and could live more peacefully in Israel than they could in Palestine. They are not allowed the vote in Israel but they weren't allowed a say in anything in Palestine either. So they have gained a peaceful and prosperous life and lost the harassment where the Palestinian authorities were putting missile launchers in the middle of school yards making their own children targets.
>> > > >
>> > > >Jeff, you are not only stupid but you want everyone else to believe that you know something when they too could use Google and get the same stupid cover-up answers.
>> > > I don't have the time right now to explain the details and problems
>> > > with your "peaceful" Palestinian return to Israel. My knowledge of
>> > > the situation is out of date and in need of some remedial reading.
>> > > It's all here for your education:
>> > > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_return_to_Israel>
>> > > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizenship_and_Entry_into_Israel_Law>
>> > > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_West_Bank_barrier>
>> > Tell us Jeff - WHEN were you in Palestine to discover all of your knowledge about it?>
>> This isn't meant as a direct insult but an indirect one. All of you people who have never done anything in your lives like Jeff and John, think that you actually know something because Google will give you some sort of article that is 100% opinion without one solid fact in it. And to YOU, this is knowledge.
>>
>> I have done long distance touring by bicycle. I think that Frank has said he has too. And Jay has said that he has. My wife and the three daughters rode coast to coast. Twice and half again to attend the Jr. Olympics.
>>
>
>I've done some long distance touring in my cycling lifetime. Rode my Trek 520 with panniers and handlebar bag around Europe in summer 1992. Rome to Brussels. About 4000 miles. I kept my computer on miles in Europe. Even though everything was in kilometers. I multiplied and divided by 0.6 all the time to get distances I understood.
>
>I've also ridden week long loaded tours in Colorado and Iowa. And several multi day loaded tours in Iowa. All over the past few decades.
>
>When I see "long distance touring by bicycle" I think of loaded touring on a touring bike carrying panniers front and back and a handlebar bag and stuff on the rear rack. NOT riding an unloaded bike with a vehicle carrying the luggage. Tommy boy, when you claim to have toured across the USA with your wife and daughters or step daughters, were you caring your luggage on your bike with panniers or pulling a bike trailer? Or did you have someone else driving a vehicle carrying the baggage?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>> Jeff, John and Flunkmaster have never done this and reading a Google article about it doesn't tell them shit. So why would they talk about it?
>
>So you are saying that Carl Sagan guy and that Neil deGrasse Tyson bum are just flunkys when they talk about space and astronomy and physics? After all, they have never been into space and are not official astronauts who landed on the moon and flew around the earth in space. What shysters!!!!! Good logic Tommy boy.

Why did you carry all that "stuff". The first guy to ride across the
U.S, was a bloke named Thomas Stevens who carried "socks, a spare
shirt, a raincoat and a pocket revolver". He left San Francisco at 8
o'clock on 22 April 1884 and arrived in Boston on 4 August 1884.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 12/8/2021 1:25 AM, John B. wrote:
> On Tue, 7 Dec 2021 20:58:24 -0800 (PST), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
> <ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Tuesday, December 7, 2021 at 3:17:21 PM UTC-6, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, December 7, 2021 at 9:52:14 AM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>> On Monday, December 6, 2021 at 7:02:22 PM UTC-8, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, 6 Dec 2021 07:34:35 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
>>>>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On Sunday, December 5, 2021 at 9:57:54 AM UTC-8, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sun, 05 Dec 2021 08:31:46 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> And I do read that
>>>>>>>> "During the 1947–1949 Palestine war, many Bedouin switched sides to
>>>>>>>> join the Zionist forces in opposing the invasion by the regular Arab
>>>>>>>> armies. Negev Bedouins, a Muslim minority which includes about 12% of
>>>>>>>> Israeli Arabs, tend to identify more as Israelis than other Arab
>>>>>>>> citizens of Israel"
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But is 12% "MOST"?
>>>>>>> That's not quite what happened. When Israel declared its
>>>>>>> independence, the surrounding Arabs declared that they would deport or
>>>>>>> exterminate all the Israeli's from Palestine. Just one problem. The
>>>>>>> invading Arabs had a difficult time identifying the Arabs that favored
>>>>>>> Israeli rule (because they had family, homes, jobs and businesses in
>>>>>>> Israel). To make things easier for them, the invading Arabs announce
>>>>>>> that all Arabs living in Israel were to temporarily move to the
>>>>>>> neighboring Arab countries. Any Arabs left behind in Israel were to
>>>>>>> be considered supporters of Israel and were to be deported or
>>>>>>> exterminated accordingly. About half left, largely along tribal
>>>>>>> dividing lines:
>>>>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_exodus>
>>>>>>> Eventually, the Israeli side survived the war, creating an awkward
>>>>>>> situation for the 700,000 Arabs who had left Israel. They wanted to
>>>>>>> return to their former homes, but Israel thought otherwise. In
>>>>>>> response to their disloyalty, Israel didn't want them back, thus
>>>>>>> creating the Palestinian refugee mess. Since the refugees were mostly
>>>>>>> from the wrong tribes, the Arabs also didn't want them.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Jeff again is telling us what is going on in the Holy Land and why. Hey, why don't you look everything up on Google and then explain it to us as if we couldn't look there and see the utter bullshit of it all? AFTER the Six Day War, Palestinians on the West Bank STILL were fleeing to Israel because they were much safer and could live more peacefully in Israel than they could in Palestine. They are not allowed the vote in Israel but they weren't allowed a say in anything in Palestine either. So they have gained a peaceful and prosperous life and lost the harassment where the Palestinian authorities were putting missile launchers in the middle of school yards making their own children targets.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jeff, you are not only stupid but you want everyone else to believe that you know something when they too could use Google and get the same stupid cover-up answers.
>>>>> I don't have the time right now to explain the details and problems
>>>>> with your "peaceful" Palestinian return to Israel. My knowledge of
>>>>> the situation is out of date and in need of some remedial reading.
>>>>> It's all here for your education:
>>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_return_to_Israel>
>>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizenship_and_Entry_into_Israel_Law>
>>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_West_Bank_barrier>
>>>> Tell us Jeff - WHEN were you in Palestine to discover all of your knowledge about it?>
>>> This isn't meant as a direct insult but an indirect one. All of you people who have never done anything in your lives like Jeff and John, think that you actually know something because Google will give you some sort of article that is 100% opinion without one solid fact in it. And to YOU, this is knowledge.
>>>
>>> I have done long distance touring by bicycle. I think that Frank has said he has too. And Jay has said that he has. My wife and the three daughters rode coast to coast. Twice and half again to attend the Jr. Olympics.
>>>
>>
>> I've done some long distance touring in my cycling lifetime. Rode my Trek 520 with panniers and handlebar bag around Europe in summer 1992. Rome to Brussels. About 4000 miles. I kept my computer on miles in Europe. Even though everything was in kilometers. I multiplied and divided by 0.6 all the time to get distances I understood.
>>
>> I've also ridden week long loaded tours in Colorado and Iowa. And several multi day loaded tours in Iowa. All over the past few decades.
>>
>> When I see "long distance touring by bicycle" I think of loaded touring on a touring bike carrying panniers front and back and a handlebar bag and stuff on the rear rack. NOT riding an unloaded bike with a vehicle carrying the luggage. Tommy boy, when you claim to have toured across the USA with your wife and daughters or step daughters, were you caring your luggage on your bike with panniers or pulling a bike trailer? Or did you have someone else driving a vehicle carrying the baggage?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> Jeff, John and Flunkmaster have never done this and reading a Google article about it doesn't tell them shit. So why would they talk about it?
>>
>> So you are saying that Carl Sagan guy and that Neil deGrasse Tyson bum are just flunkys when they talk about space and astronomy and physics? After all, they have never been into space and are not official astronauts who landed on the moon and flew around the earth in space. What shysters!!!!! Good logic Tommy boy.
>
> Why did you carry all that "stuff". The first guy to ride across the
> U.S, was a bloke named Thomas Stevens who carried "socks, a spare
> shirt, a raincoat and a pocket revolver". He left San Francisco at 8
> o'clock on 22 April 1884 and arrived in Boston on 4 August 1884.
>

Excellent example of small-group deliberations and democracy
writ small. Trouble is, 'democracy' doesn't scale:

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/illinois/articles/2021-06-24/lawsuit-75-year-chicago-parking-meter-deal-is-a-monopoly

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 12/8/2021 2:25 AM, John B. wrote:
> On Tue, 7 Dec 2021 20:58:24 -0800 (PST), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
> <ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> When I see "long distance touring by bicycle" I think of loaded touring on a touring bike carrying panniers front and back and a handlebar bag and stuff on the rear rack. NOT riding an unloaded bike with a vehicle carrying the luggage. Tommy boy, when you claim to have toured across the USA with your wife and daughters or step daughters, were you caring your luggage on your bike with panniers or pulling a bike trailer? Or did you have someone else driving a vehicle carrying the baggage?
>>
> Why did you carry all that "stuff". The first guy to ride across the
> U.S, was a bloke named Thomas Stevens who carried "socks, a spare
> shirt, a raincoat and a pocket revolver". He left San Francisco at 8
> o'clock on 22 April 1884 and arrived in Boston on 4 August 1884.

As I recall, Jobst Brandt was almost as spartan as Stevens. He toured
the alps with one large saddlebag and IIRC no clothing other than
bicycle clothing. (Correct me if I'm wrong.) However, Jobst did not
camp, preferring hotels and such.

Our club has a now elderly couple (even more elderly than me!) who were
similar to Jobst in their tandem touring days. For one club program,
they rolled their packed tandem into the room and unpacked everything.
Those folks almost always slept in their tent and cooked their own
meals; yet I was amazed at how little they carried.

I, OTOH, tend to over-pack no matter how diligently I try to pare my
load. After most trips I've done an accounting exercise, weighing each
item after unpacking it, and noting how many times I used it. But still,
next time I'd cave in to temptation: "Well, it might be nice to take
this..."

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Tuesday, December 7, 2021 at 8:58:26 PM UTC-8, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 7, 2021 at 3:17:21 PM UTC-6, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Tuesday, December 7, 2021 at 9:52:14 AM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > On Monday, December 6, 2021 at 7:02:22 PM UTC-8, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > On Mon, 6 Dec 2021 07:34:35 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
> > > > <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > >On Sunday, December 5, 2021 at 9:57:54 AM UTC-8, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > >> On Sun, 05 Dec 2021 08:31:46 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
> > > > >> wrote:
> > > > >> >And I do read that
> > > > >> >"During the 1947–1949 Palestine war, many Bedouin switched sides to
> > > > >> >join the Zionist forces in opposing the invasion by the regular Arab
> > > > >> >armies. Negev Bedouins, a Muslim minority which includes about 12% of
> > > > >> >Israeli Arabs, tend to identify more as Israelis than other Arab
> > > > >> >citizens of Israel"
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >But is 12% "MOST"?
> > > > >> That's not quite what happened. When Israel declared its
> > > > >> independence, the surrounding Arabs declared that they would deport or
> > > > >> exterminate all the Israeli's from Palestine. Just one problem. The
> > > > >> invading Arabs had a difficult time identifying the Arabs that favored
> > > > >> Israeli rule (because they had family, homes, jobs and businesses in
> > > > >> Israel). To make things easier for them, the invading Arabs announce
> > > > >> that all Arabs living in Israel were to temporarily move to the
> > > > >> neighboring Arab countries. Any Arabs left behind in Israel were to
> > > > >> be considered supporters of Israel and were to be deported or
> > > > >> exterminated accordingly. About half left, largely along tribal
> > > > >> dividing lines:
> > > > >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_exodus>
> > > > >> Eventually, the Israeli side survived the war, creating an awkward
> > > > >> situation for the 700,000 Arabs who had left Israel. They wanted to
> > > > >> return to their former homes, but Israel thought otherwise. In
> > > > >> response to their disloyalty, Israel didn't want them back, thus
> > > > >> creating the Palestinian refugee mess. Since the refugees were mostly
> > > > >> from the wrong tribes, the Arabs also didn't want them.
> > > >
> > > > >Jeff again is telling us what is going on in the Holy Land and why.. Hey, why don't you look everything up on Google and then explain it to us as if we couldn't look there and see the utter bullshit of it all? AFTER the Six Day War, Palestinians on the West Bank STILL were fleeing to Israel because they were much safer and could live more peacefully in Israel than they could in Palestine. They are not allowed the vote in Israel but they weren't allowed a say in anything in Palestine either. So they have gained a peaceful and prosperous life and lost the harassment where the Palestinian authorities were putting missile launchers in the middle of school yards making their own children targets.
> > > > >
> > > > >Jeff, you are not only stupid but you want everyone else to believe that you know something when they too could use Google and get the same stupid cover-up answers.
> > > > I don't have the time right now to explain the details and problems
> > > > with your "peaceful" Palestinian return to Israel. My knowledge of
> > > > the situation is out of date and in need of some remedial reading.
> > > > It's all here for your education:
> > > > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_return_to_Israel>
> > > > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizenship_and_Entry_into_Israel_Law>
> > > > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_West_Bank_barrier>
> > > Tell us Jeff - WHEN were you in Palestine to discover all of your knowledge about it?>
> > This isn't meant as a direct insult but an indirect one. All of you people who have never done anything in your lives like Jeff and John, think that you actually know something because Google will give you some sort of article that is 100% opinion without one solid fact in it. And to YOU, this is knowledge.
> >
> > I have done long distance touring by bicycle. I think that Frank has said he has too. And Jay has said that he has. My wife and the three daughters rode coast to coast. Twice and half again to attend the Jr. Olympics.
> >
> I've done some long distance touring in my cycling lifetime. Rode my Trek 520 with panniers and handlebar bag around Europe in summer 1992. Rome to Brussels. About 4000 miles. I kept my computer on miles in Europe. Even though everything was in kilometers. I multiplied and divided by 0.6 all the time to get distances I understood.
>
> I've also ridden week long loaded tours in Colorado and Iowa. And several multi day loaded tours in Iowa. All over the past few decades.
>
> When I see "long distance touring by bicycle" I think of loaded touring on a touring bike carrying panniers front and back and a handlebar bag and stuff on the rear rack. NOT riding an unloaded bike with a vehicle carrying the luggage. Tommy boy, when you claim to have toured across the USA with your wife and daughters or step daughters, were you caring your luggage on your bike with panniers or pulling a bike trailer? Or did you have someone else driving a vehicle carrying the baggage?
> > Jeff, John and Flunkmaster have never done this and reading a Google article about it doesn't tell them shit. So why would they talk about it?
> So you are saying that Carl Sagan guy and that Neil deGrasse Tyson bum are just flunkys when they talk about space and astronomy and physics? After all, they have never been into space and are not official astronauts who landed on the moon and flew around the earth in space. What shysters!!!!! Good logic Tommy boy.
Why do you force yourself to be stupid? I said my wife and three daughters rode across the US. You sound like Jay at his moronic tell me that it wasn't "across the US because the starting point wasn't at the edge of the Pacific but only a couple of miles from it.

Tell me you mindless piece of shit. Where did I say that I rode across the USA? And if you like to pretend that riding carrying all of the stuff for four people on a rack is somehow noble and that having a broken down old chase station wagon then that simply shows your mental illness for all to see.

Yes, I did a lot of loaded touring but your claim of 4,000 miles is pure bullshit. The distance from Rome to Brussels is only 750 miles. And with every side trip possible you couldn't force a 4,000 miles trip in Europe.

So why don't you try lying to people who would believe your shit - I'm sure that John would.

On Wednesday, December 8, 2021 at 5:53:18 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> On 12/8/2021 1:25 AM, John B. wrote:
> > On Tue, 7 Dec 2021 20:58:24 -0800 (PST), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> > <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On Tuesday, December 7, 2021 at 3:17:21 PM UTC-6, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>> On Tuesday, December 7, 2021 at 9:52:14 AM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>> On Monday, December 6, 2021 at 7:02:22 PM UTC-8, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>>> On Mon, 6 Dec 2021 07:34:35 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
> >>>>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>> On Sunday, December 5, 2021 at 9:57:54 AM UTC-8, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Sun, 05 Dec 2021 08:31:46 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>> And I do read that
> >>>>>>>> "During the 1947–1949 Palestine war, many Bedouin switched sides to
> >>>>>>>> join the Zionist forces in opposing the invasion by the regular Arab
> >>>>>>>> armies. Negev Bedouins, a Muslim minority which includes about 12% of
> >>>>>>>> Israeli Arabs, tend to identify more as Israelis than other Arab
> >>>>>>>> citizens of Israel"
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> But is 12% "MOST"?
> >>>>>>> That's not quite what happened. When Israel declared its
> >>>>>>> independence, the surrounding Arabs declared that they would deport or
> >>>>>>> exterminate all the Israeli's from Palestine. Just one problem. The
> >>>>>>> invading Arabs had a difficult time identifying the Arabs that favored
> >>>>>>> Israeli rule (because they had family, homes, jobs and businesses in
> >>>>>>> Israel). To make things easier for them, the invading Arabs announce
> >>>>>>> that all Arabs living in Israel were to temporarily move to the
> >>>>>>> neighboring Arab countries. Any Arabs left behind in Israel were to
> >>>>>>> be considered supporters of Israel and were to be deported or
> >>>>>>> exterminated accordingly. About half left, largely along tribal
> >>>>>>> dividing lines:
> >>>>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_exodus>
> >>>>>>> Eventually, the Israeli side survived the war, creating an awkward
> >>>>>>> situation for the 700,000 Arabs who had left Israel. They wanted to
> >>>>>>> return to their former homes, but Israel thought otherwise. In
> >>>>>>> response to their disloyalty, Israel didn't want them back, thus
> >>>>>>> creating the Palestinian refugee mess. Since the refugees were mostly
> >>>>>>> from the wrong tribes, the Arabs also didn't want them.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Jeff again is telling us what is going on in the Holy Land and why.. Hey, why don't you look everything up on Google and then explain it to us as if we couldn't look there and see the utter bullshit of it all? AFTER the Six Day War, Palestinians on the West Bank STILL were fleeing to Israel because they were much safer and could live more peacefully in Israel than they could in Palestine. They are not allowed the vote in Israel but they weren't allowed a say in anything in Palestine either. So they have gained a peaceful and prosperous life and lost the harassment where the Palestinian authorities were putting missile launchers in the middle of school yards making their own children targets.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Jeff, you are not only stupid but you want everyone else to believe that you know something when they too could use Google and get the same stupid cover-up answers.
> >>>>> I don't have the time right now to explain the details and problems
> >>>>> with your "peaceful" Palestinian return to Israel. My knowledge of
> >>>>> the situation is out of date and in need of some remedial reading.
> >>>>> It's all here for your education:
> >>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_return_to_Israel>
> >>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizenship_and_Entry_into_Israel_Law>
> >>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_West_Bank_barrier>
> >>>> Tell us Jeff - WHEN were you in Palestine to discover all of your knowledge about it?>
> >>> This isn't meant as a direct insult but an indirect one. All of you people who have never done anything in your lives like Jeff and John, think that you actually know something because Google will give you some sort of article that is 100% opinion without one solid fact in it. And to YOU, this is knowledge.
> >>>
> >>> I have done long distance touring by bicycle. I think that Frank has said he has too. And Jay has said that he has. My wife and the three daughters rode coast to coast. Twice and half again to attend the Jr. Olympics.
> >>>
> >>
> >> I've done some long distance touring in my cycling lifetime. Rode my Trek 520 with panniers and handlebar bag around Europe in summer 1992. Rome to Brussels. About 4000 miles. I kept my computer on miles in Europe. Even though everything was in kilometers. I multiplied and divided by 0.6 all the time to get distances I understood.
> >>
> >> I've also ridden week long loaded tours in Colorado and Iowa. And several multi day loaded tours in Iowa. All over the past few decades.
> >>
> >> When I see "long distance touring by bicycle" I think of loaded touring on a touring bike carrying panniers front and back and a handlebar bag and stuff on the rear rack. NOT riding an unloaded bike with a vehicle carrying the luggage. Tommy boy, when you claim to have toured across the USA with your wife and daughters or step daughters, were you caring your luggage on your bike with panniers or pulling a bike trailer? Or did you have someone else driving a vehicle carrying the baggage?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> Jeff, John and Flunkmaster have never done this and reading a Google article about it doesn't tell them shit. So why would they talk about it?
> >>
> >> So you are saying that Carl Sagan guy and that Neil deGrasse Tyson bum are just flunkys when they talk about space and astronomy and physics? After all, they have never been into space and are not official astronauts who landed on the moon and flew around the earth in space. What shysters!!!!! Good logic Tommy boy.
> >
> > Why did you carry all that "stuff". The first guy to ride across the
> > U.S, was a bloke named Thomas Stevens who carried "socks, a spare
> > shirt, a raincoat and a pocket revolver". He left San Francisco at 8
> > o'clock on 22 April 1884 and arrived in Boston on 4 August 1884.
> >
> Excellent example of small-group deliberations and democracy
> writ small. Trouble is, 'democracy' doesn't scale:
>
> https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/illinois/articles/2021-06-24/lawsuit-75-year-chicago-parking-meter-deal-is-a-monopoly

Very many government contracts especially in Democrat controlled areas are illegal monopolies. But you seldom can challenge them without disappearing.

On Wednesday, December 8, 2021 at 7:48:47 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 12/8/2021 2:25 AM, John B. wrote:
> > On Tue, 7 Dec 2021 20:58:24 -0800 (PST), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> > <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> When I see "long distance touring by bicycle" I think of loaded touring on a touring bike carrying panniers front and back and a handlebar bag and stuff on the rear rack. NOT riding an unloaded bike with a vehicle carrying the luggage. Tommy boy, when you claim to have toured across the USA with your wife and daughters or step daughters, were you caring your luggage on your bike with panniers or pulling a bike trailer? Or did you have someone else driving a vehicle carrying the baggage?
> >>
> > Why did you carry all that "stuff". The first guy to ride across the
> > U.S, was a bloke named Thomas Stevens who carried "socks, a spare
> > shirt, a raincoat and a pocket revolver". He left San Francisco at 8
> > o'clock on 22 April 1884 and arrived in Boston on 4 August 1884.
> As I recall, Jobst Brandt was almost as spartan as Stevens. He toured
> the alps with one large saddlebag and IIRC no clothing other than
> bicycle clothing. (Correct me if I'm wrong.) However, Jobst did not
> camp, preferring hotels and such.
>
> Our club has a now elderly couple (even more elderly than me!) who were
> similar to Jobst in their tandem touring days. For one club program,
> they rolled their packed tandem into the room and unpacked everything.
> Those folks almost always slept in their tent and cooked their own
> meals; yet I was amazed at how little they carried.
>
> I, OTOH, tend to over-pack no matter how diligently I try to pare my
> load. After most trips I've done an accounting exercise, weighing each
> item after unpacking it, and noting how many times I used it. But still,
> next time I'd cave in to temptation: "Well, it might be nice to take
> this..."

I carried a large tent and even a stove, and cooking utensils. All of this stuff is still down in the garage and I'll be damned if I can remember how I ever got all of that on my bike. Since we always toured as a group perhaps the other guys carried part of it.

On Wednesday, December 8, 2021 at 7:48:47 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 12/8/2021 2:25 AM, John B. wrote:
> > On Tue, 7 Dec 2021 20:58:24 -0800 (PST), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> > <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> When I see "long distance touring by bicycle" I think of loaded touring on a touring bike carrying panniers front and back and a handlebar bag and stuff on the rear rack. NOT riding an unloaded bike with a vehicle carrying the luggage. Tommy boy, when you claim to have toured across the USA with your wife and daughters or step daughters, were you caring your luggage on your bike with panniers or pulling a bike trailer? Or did you have someone else driving a vehicle carrying the baggage?
> >>
> > Why did you carry all that "stuff". The first guy to ride across the
> > U.S, was a bloke named Thomas Stevens who carried "socks, a spare
> > shirt, a raincoat and a pocket revolver". He left San Francisco at 8
> > o'clock on 22 April 1884 and arrived in Boston on 4 August 1884.
> As I recall, Jobst Brandt was almost as spartan as Stevens. He toured
> the alps with one large saddlebag and IIRC no clothing other than
> bicycle clothing. (Correct me if I'm wrong.) However, Jobst did not
> camp, preferring hotels and such.
>
> Our club has a now elderly couple (even more elderly than me!) who were
> similar to Jobst in their tandem touring days. For one club program,
> they rolled their packed tandem into the room and unpacked everything.
> Those folks almost always slept in their tent and cooked their own
> meals; yet I was amazed at how little they carried.
>
> I, OTOH, tend to over-pack no matter how diligently I try to pare my
> load. After most trips I've done an accounting exercise, weighing each
> item after unpacking it, and noting how many times I used it. But still,
> next time I'd cave in to temptation: "Well, it might be nice to take
> this..."

I rode with a guy on the TransAm trail that had a handlebar bag and a single stuff-sack with his sleeping bag and clothes stuffed in it. He camped but had to find some sort of shelter if it rained. Great guy. What people pack is really idiosyncratic. If you under-pack, you can pick things up in population areas or bail-out to motel/hostel, etc., but if you're in the middle of nowhere, under-packing is a lot more consequential, particularly if it involves food and water. I think with touring the Alps and that sort of thing, you're probably near a mountain town or village most of the time. In many places in the West, including eastern Oregon, you can get in trouble. https://imgur.com/29uMwi7 I hate having to load up on supplemental water, usually in some squishy bag bungee corded to my rack.

-- Jay Beattie.

On Wed, 08 Dec 2021 07:53:16 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 12/8/2021 1:25 AM, John B. wrote:
>> On Tue, 7 Dec 2021 20:58:24 -0800 (PST), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
>> <ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Tuesday, December 7, 2021 at 3:17:21 PM UTC-6, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> On Tuesday, December 7, 2021 at 9:52:14 AM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>> On Monday, December 6, 2021 at 7:02:22 PM UTC-8, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>> On Mon, 6 Dec 2021 07:34:35 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
>>>>>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sunday, December 5, 2021 at 9:57:54 AM UTC-8, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Sun, 05 Dec 2021 08:31:46 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> And I do read that
>>>>>>>>> "During the 1947–1949 Palestine war, many Bedouin switched sides to
>>>>>>>>> join the Zionist forces in opposing the invasion by the regular Arab
>>>>>>>>> armies. Negev Bedouins, a Muslim minority which includes about 12% of
>>>>>>>>> Israeli Arabs, tend to identify more as Israelis than other Arab
>>>>>>>>> citizens of Israel"
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But is 12% "MOST"?
>>>>>>>> That's not quite what happened. When Israel declared its
>>>>>>>> independence, the surrounding Arabs declared that they would deport or
>>>>>>>> exterminate all the Israeli's from Palestine. Just one problem. The
>>>>>>>> invading Arabs had a difficult time identifying the Arabs that favored
>>>>>>>> Israeli rule (because they had family, homes, jobs and businesses in
>>>>>>>> Israel). To make things easier for them, the invading Arabs announce
>>>>>>>> that all Arabs living in Israel were to temporarily move to the
>>>>>>>> neighboring Arab countries. Any Arabs left behind in Israel were to
>>>>>>>> be considered supporters of Israel and were to be deported or
>>>>>>>> exterminated accordingly. About half left, largely along tribal
>>>>>>>> dividing lines:
>>>>>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_exodus>
>>>>>>>> Eventually, the Israeli side survived the war, creating an awkward
>>>>>>>> situation for the 700,000 Arabs who had left Israel. They wanted to
>>>>>>>> return to their former homes, but Israel thought otherwise. In
>>>>>>>> response to their disloyalty, Israel didn't want them back, thus
>>>>>>>> creating the Palestinian refugee mess. Since the refugees were mostly
>>>>>>>> from the wrong tribes, the Arabs also didn't want them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jeff again is telling us what is going on in the Holy Land and why. Hey, why don't you look everything up on Google and then explain it to us as if we couldn't look there and see the utter bullshit of it all? AFTER the Six Day War, Palestinians on the West Bank STILL were fleeing to Israel because they were much safer and could live more peacefully in Israel than they could in Palestine. They are not allowed the vote in Israel but they weren't allowed a say in anything in Palestine either. So they have gained a peaceful and prosperous life and lost the harassment where the Palestinian authorities were putting missile launchers in the middle of school yards making their own children targets.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jeff, you are not only stupid but you want everyone else to believe that you know something when they too could use Google and get the same stupid cover-up answers.
>>>>>> I don't have the time right now to explain the details and problems
>>>>>> with your "peaceful" Palestinian return to Israel. My knowledge of
>>>>>> the situation is out of date and in need of some remedial reading.
>>>>>> It's all here for your education:
>>>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_return_to_Israel>
>>>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizenship_and_Entry_into_Israel_Law>
>>>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_West_Bank_barrier>
>>>>> Tell us Jeff - WHEN were you in Palestine to discover all of your knowledge about it?>
>>>> This isn't meant as a direct insult but an indirect one. All of you people who have never done anything in your lives like Jeff and John, think that you actually know something because Google will give you some sort of article that is 100% opinion without one solid fact in it. And to YOU, this is knowledge.
>>>>
>>>> I have done long distance touring by bicycle. I think that Frank has said he has too. And Jay has said that he has. My wife and the three daughters rode coast to coast. Twice and half again to attend the Jr. Olympics.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I've done some long distance touring in my cycling lifetime. Rode my Trek 520 with panniers and handlebar bag around Europe in summer 1992. Rome to Brussels. About 4000 miles. I kept my computer on miles in Europe. Even though everything was in kilometers. I multiplied and divided by 0.6 all the time to get distances I understood.
>>>
>>> I've also ridden week long loaded tours in Colorado and Iowa. And several multi day loaded tours in Iowa. All over the past few decades.
>>>
>>> When I see "long distance touring by bicycle" I think of loaded touring on a touring bike carrying panniers front and back and a handlebar bag and stuff on the rear rack. NOT riding an unloaded bike with a vehicle carrying the luggage. Tommy boy, when you claim to have toured across the USA with your wife and daughters or step daughters, were you caring your luggage on your bike with panniers or pulling a bike trailer? Or did you have someone else driving a vehicle carrying the baggage?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Jeff, John and Flunkmaster have never done this and reading a Google article about it doesn't tell them shit. So why would they talk about it?
>>>
>>> So you are saying that Carl Sagan guy and that Neil deGrasse Tyson bum are just flunkys when they talk about space and astronomy and physics? After all, they have never been into space and are not official astronauts who landed on the moon and flew around the earth in space. What shysters!!!!! Good logic Tommy boy.
>>
>> Why did you carry all that "stuff". The first guy to ride across the
>> U.S, was a bloke named Thomas Stevens who carried "socks, a spare
>> shirt, a raincoat and a pocket revolver". He left San Francisco at 8
>> o'clock on 22 April 1884 and arrived in Boston on 4 August 1884.
>>
>
>Excellent example of small-group deliberations and democracy
>writ small. Trouble is, 'democracy' doesn't scale:
>
>https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/illinois/articles/2021-06-24/lawsuit-75-year-chicago-parking-meter-deal-is-a-monopoly

That article seems a bit weak on data. It seems to say that the
company paid, cash money, 1.6 billion dollars, and in return got a 50
year contract, on which they have received $138.7 million over some 12
years, to date, or 11.5 million a year.

But it doesn't calculate maintenance and upkeep, overhead, interest
losses on 1.6 billion over 50 years, and other costs, so really a
reasonable evaluation of the project can't be made.

As an example $1000 at 4% for 50 years is something like a 600 percent
increase (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Wed, 8 Dec 2021 10:48:43 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 12/8/2021 2:25 AM, John B. wrote:
>> On Tue, 7 Dec 2021 20:58:24 -0800 (PST), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
>> <ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> When I see "long distance touring by bicycle" I think of loaded touring on a touring bike carrying panniers front and back and a handlebar bag and stuff on the rear rack. NOT riding an unloaded bike with a vehicle carrying the luggage. Tommy boy, when you claim to have toured across the USA with your wife and daughters or step daughters, were you caring your luggage on your bike with panniers or pulling a bike trailer? Or did you have someone else driving a vehicle carrying the baggage?
>>>
>> Why did you carry all that "stuff". The first guy to ride across the
>> U.S, was a bloke named Thomas Stevens who carried "socks, a spare
>> shirt, a raincoat and a pocket revolver". He left San Francisco at 8
>> o'clock on 22 April 1884 and arrived in Boston on 4 August 1884.
>
>As I recall, Jobst Brandt was almost as spartan as Stevens. He toured
>the alps with one large saddlebag and IIRC no clothing other than
>bicycle clothing. (Correct me if I'm wrong.) However, Jobst did not
>camp, preferring hotels and such.
>
>Our club has a now elderly couple (even more elderly than me!) who were
>similar to Jobst in their tandem touring days. For one club program,
>they rolled their packed tandem into the room and unpacked everything.
>Those folks almost always slept in their tent and cooked their own
>meals; yet I was amazed at how little they carried.
>
>I, OTOH, tend to over-pack no matter how diligently I try to pare my
>load. After most trips I've done an accounting exercise, weighing each
>item after unpacking it, and noting how many times I used it. But still,
>next time I'd cave in to temptation: "Well, it might be nice to take
>this..."

Not a bicycle ride but when we were living in Jakarta we used to visit
Singapore a few days a month and my baggage was one carry on bag and
my wife's was one large suitcase.
And when I complained about it she used to say, "But... I Need
everything that's in there" (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.