I have the three titanium bikes. The Merlin, the Douglas Ti and the Airborne.

I set them all up more or less identically. Since the Douglas is a 10 speed it has a low gear of 34/28 while the others are 34/32 In practice this means little since you generally ride a 28 on hard climbs anyway because lower gears make it impossible to get back on the bike if you are forced to stop for any reason. The bike won't move far enough forward in those tiny gears to allow you to clip in with your off-side foot.

The Douglas is the one I've been using for gravel but I am reconverting it over to road.

The Merlin and the Douglas with the same length of stem and the saddle in about the same place had a reach of 30" while the Airborne was 31". This would KILL my shoulders riding it so I got a 70 mm stem and pushed the saddle forward (which was a little difficult since the saddle and seat post were a little of a mismatch and it was very difficult to adjust.

It stopped raining today so I was going to go out and ride it for a test. But it was bitter cold and I didn't feel like riding 20 miles and still shaking when I got back. So the next riding day will be Saturday for the old farts ride and Sunday in heavy overcast building up for rain the rest of next week. So I will have to do another metric on Sunday. Saturday will give me a reason to ride the Airborne on Sunday or not. I don't know how well I will get along with a short stem.

Tom Kunich <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
> I have the three titanium bikes. The Merlin, the Douglas Ti and the Airborne.
>
> I set them all up more or less identically. Since the Douglas is a 10
> speed it has a low gear of 34/28 while the others are 34/32 In practice
> this means little since you generally ride a 28 on hard climbs anyway
> because lower gears make it impossible to get back on the bike if you are
> forced to stop for any reason. The bike won't move far enough forward in
> those tiny gears to allow you to clip in with your off-side foot.

Years of MTB and flat pedals mean, starting off isn’t a issue or rolling
along at low speeds even zero speed, which is handy at junctions etc.

My gravel bike is 32-34 which will flatten most roads and give me the
gearing up most gravel climbs, which are harder work as they tend to take
more direct ways up, plus being well gravel!
>
> The Douglas is the one I've been using for gravel but I am reconverting it over to road.
>
> The Merlin and the Douglas with the same length of stem and the saddle in
> about the same place had a reach of 30" while the Airborne was 31". This
> would KILL my shoulders riding it so I got a 70 mm stem and pushed the
> saddle forward (which was a little difficult since the saddle and seat
> post were a little of a mismatch and it was very difficult to adjust.
>
> It stopped raining today so I was going to go out and ride it for a test.
> But it was bitter cold and I didn't feel like riding 20 miles and still
> shaking when I got back. So the next riding day will be Saturday for the
> old farts ride and Sunday in heavy overcast building up for rain the rest
> of next week. So I will have to do another metric on Sunday. Saturday
> will give me a reason to ride the Airborne on Sunday or not. I don't know
> how well I will get along with a short stem.
>
Roger Merriman

On Wednesday, December 15, 2021 at 4:42:20 AM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I have the three titanium bikes. The Merlin, the Douglas Ti and the Airborne.
> >
> > I set them all up more or less identically. Since the Douglas is a 10
> > speed it has a low gear of 34/28 while the others are 34/32 In practice
> > this means little since you generally ride a 28 on hard climbs anyway
> > because lower gears make it impossible to get back on the bike if you are
> > forced to stop for any reason. The bike won't move far enough forward in
> > those tiny gears to allow you to clip in with your off-side foot.
> Years of MTB and flat pedals mean, starting off isn’t a issue or rolling
> along at low speeds even zero speed, which is handy at junctions etc.
>
> My gravel bike is 32-34 which will flatten most roads and give me the
> gearing up most gravel climbs, which are harder work as they tend to take
> more direct ways up, plus being well gravel!
> >
> > The Douglas is the one I've been using for gravel but I am reconverting it over to road.
> >
> > The Merlin and the Douglas with the same length of stem and the saddle in
> > about the same place had a reach of 30" while the Airborne was 31". This
> > would KILL my shoulders riding it so I got a 70 mm stem and pushed the
> > saddle forward (which was a little difficult since the saddle and seat
> > post were a little of a mismatch and it was very difficult to adjust.
> >
> > It stopped raining today so I was going to go out and ride it for a test.
> > But it was bitter cold and I didn't feel like riding 20 miles and still
> > shaking when I got back. So the next riding day will be Saturday for the
> > old farts ride and Sunday in heavy overcast building up for rain the rest
> > of next week. So I will have to do another metric on Sunday. Saturday
> > will give me a reason to ride the Airborne on Sunday or not. I don't know
> > how well I will get along with a short stem.

I used real gravel (well, CX) bikes on really difficult terrain. I would absolutely NOT use flat pedals. Stepping out of SpDs is no problem and you can pull on the cranks when you need to. There are climbing limits to a CX bike because too much traction and too much power required will absolutely lift the front wheel causing the bike to rotate around. My reaction to this was always to lay it over since it could spin facing straight downhill and you could be in an uncontrollable position with the front wheel 10 feet off of the ground. There absolutely are limits to the descent that you can do on a CX or gravel bike if they are short and there's a run out you can blast them.

On 12/15/2021 7:42 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> Tom Kunich <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I have the three titanium bikes. The Merlin, the Douglas Ti and the Airborne.
>>
>> I set them all up more or less identically. Since the Douglas is a 10
>> speed it has a low gear of 34/28 while the others are 34/32 In practice
>> this means little since you generally ride a 28 on hard climbs anyway
>> because lower gears make it impossible to get back on the bike if you are
>> forced to stop for any reason. The bike won't move far enough forward in
>> those tiny gears to allow you to clip in with your off-side foot.
>
> Years of MTB and flat pedals mean, starting off isn’t a issue or rolling
> along at low speeds even zero speed, which is handy at junctions etc.
>
> My gravel bike is 32-34 which will flatten most roads and give me the
> gearing up most gravel climbs, which are harder work as they tend to take
> more direct ways up, plus being well gravel!

My most difficult re-starts have been the (very) few times we've had to
stop our tandem during a steep climb. Yes, the slow speed, the low
gearing and the long wheelbase made it tricky.

But an advantage of flat pedals or pedals with toe clips is that one can
briefly push on the underside of the pedal using the instep of one's
foot to get started. If the situation is the least bit tricky, that's
what I do for a few crank revolutions. I worry about sliding into the
toe clips only once I've got momentum.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On 12/15/2021 7:42 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> Tom Kunich <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I have the three titanium bikes. The Merlin, the Douglas Ti and the Airborne.
>>>
>>> I set them all up more or less identically. Since the Douglas is a 10
>>> speed it has a low gear of 34/28 while the others are 34/32 In practice
>>> this means little since you generally ride a 28 on hard climbs anyway
>>> because lower gears make it impossible to get back on the bike if you are
>>> forced to stop for any reason. The bike won't move far enough forward in
>>> those tiny gears to allow you to clip in with your off-side foot.
>>
>> Years of MTB and flat pedals mean, starting off isn’t a issue or rolling
>> along at low speeds even zero speed, which is handy at junctions etc.
>>
>> My gravel bike is 32-34 which will flatten most roads and give me the
>> gearing up most gravel climbs, which are harder work as they tend to take
>> more direct ways up, plus being well gravel!
>
> My most difficult re-starts have been the (very) few times we've had to
> stop our tandem during a steep climb. Yes, the slow speed, the low
> gearing and the long wheelbase made it tricky.
>
> But an advantage of flat pedals or pedals with toe clips is that one can
> briefly push on the underside of the pedal using the instep of one's
> foot to get started. If the situation is the least bit tricky, that's
> what I do for a few crank revolutions. I worry about sliding into the
> toe clips only once I've got momentum.
>
>
My limit is grip, if it’s too steep and wet then I can’t get enough to get
going, I generally start slowly with which ever foot, and (attempt) a
smooth pull off, as any bursts of torque will on those sort of climbs spin
the wheel out.

On road not a problem as well loads of grip and things only get so steep
30ish %

Roger Merriman.

Tom Kunich <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 15, 2021 at 4:42:20 AM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I have the three titanium bikes. The Merlin, the Douglas Ti and the Airborne.
>>>
>>> I set them all up more or less identically. Since the Douglas is a 10
>>> speed it has a low gear of 34/28 while the others are 34/32 In practice
>>> this means little since you generally ride a 28 on hard climbs anyway
>>> because lower gears make it impossible to get back on the bike if you are
>>> forced to stop for any reason. The bike won't move far enough forward in
>>> those tiny gears to allow you to clip in with your off-side foot.
>> Years of MTB and flat pedals mean, starting off isn’t a issue or rolling
>> along at low speeds even zero speed, which is handy at junctions etc.
>>
>> My gravel bike is 32-34 which will flatten most roads and give me the
>> gearing up most gravel climbs, which are harder work as they tend to take
>> more direct ways up, plus being well gravel!
>>>
>>> The Douglas is the one I've been using for gravel but I am reconverting it over to road.
>>>
>>> The Merlin and the Douglas with the same length of stem and the saddle in
>>> about the same place had a reach of 30" while the Airborne was 31". This
>>> would KILL my shoulders riding it so I got a 70 mm stem and pushed the
>>> saddle forward (which was a little difficult since the saddle and seat
>>> post were a little of a mismatch and it was very difficult to adjust.
>>>
>>> It stopped raining today so I was going to go out and ride it for a test.
>>> But it was bitter cold and I didn't feel like riding 20 miles and still
>>> shaking when I got back. So the next riding day will be Saturday for the
>>> old farts ride and Sunday in heavy overcast building up for rain the rest
>>> of next week. So I will have to do another metric on Sunday. Saturday
>>> will give me a reason to ride the Airborne on Sunday or not. I don't know
>>> how well I will get along with a short stem.
>
> I used real gravel (well, CX) bikes on really difficult terrain. I would
> absolutely NOT use flat pedals. Stepping out of SpDs is no problem and
> you can pull on the cranks when you need to. There are climbing limits to
> a CX bike because too much traction and too much power required will
> absolutely lift the front wheel causing the bike to rotate around. My
> reaction to this was always to lay it over since it could spin facing
> straight downhill and you could be in an uncontrollable position with the
> front wheel 10 feet off of the ground. There absolutely are limits to the
> descent that you can do on a CX or gravel bike if they are short and
> there's a run out you can blast them.
>
I’m a old MTBer and though I have used clipless it’s not my first love and
essentially what your after is a secure connection between shoe/pedal which
if you use proper Flats and shoes you have to lift the shoe to reposition.

I find the gravel bike due to its position is a good climbing bike, it’s
slightly easier than the MTB to just sit and spin before the front will
start to get light. Though once your out of the saddle and into serious
gradients and technical climbs the MTB will clear stuff the gravel will
struggle with.

Roger Merriman

On Thursday, December 16, 2021 at 3:55:28 AM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> > On 12/15/2021 7:42 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> >> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> I have the three titanium bikes. The Merlin, the Douglas Ti and the Airborne.
> >>>
> >>> I set them all up more or less identically. Since the Douglas is a 10
> >>> speed it has a low gear of 34/28 while the others are 34/32 In practice
> >>> this means little since you generally ride a 28 on hard climbs anyway
> >>> because lower gears make it impossible to get back on the bike if you are
> >>> forced to stop for any reason. The bike won't move far enough forward in
> >>> those tiny gears to allow you to clip in with your off-side foot.
> >>
> >> Years of MTB and flat pedals mean, starting off isn’t a issue or rolling
> >> along at low speeds even zero speed, which is handy at junctions etc.
> >>
> >> My gravel bike is 32-34 which will flatten most roads and give me the
> >> gearing up most gravel climbs, which are harder work as they tend to take
> >> more direct ways up, plus being well gravel!
> >
> > My most difficult re-starts have been the (very) few times we've had to
> > stop our tandem during a steep climb. Yes, the slow speed, the low
> > gearing and the long wheelbase made it tricky.
> >
> > But an advantage of flat pedals or pedals with toe clips is that one can
> > briefly push on the underside of the pedal using the instep of one's
> > foot to get started. If the situation is the least bit tricky, that's
> > what I do for a few crank revolutions. I worry about sliding into the
> > toe clips only once I've got momentum.
> >
> >
> My limit is grip, if it’s too steep and wet then I can’t get enough to get
> going, I generally start slowly with which ever foot, and (attempt) a
> smooth pull off, as any bursts of torque will on those sort of climbs spin
> the wheel out.
>
> On road not a problem as well loads of grip and things only get so steep
> 30ish %

Well I do have trouble believing that you could ride anything other than a full suspension up a 30% grade with flat pedals.

Tom Kunich <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thursday, December 16, 2021 at 3:55:28 AM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> On 12/15/2021 7:42 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> I have the three titanium bikes. The Merlin, the Douglas Ti and the Airborne.
>>>>>
>>>>> I set them all up more or less identically. Since the Douglas is a 10
>>>>> speed it has a low gear of 34/28 while the others are 34/32 In practice
>>>>> this means little since you generally ride a 28 on hard climbs anyway
>>>>> because lower gears make it impossible to get back on the bike if you are
>>>>> forced to stop for any reason. The bike won't move far enough forward in
>>>>> those tiny gears to allow you to clip in with your off-side foot.
>>>>
>>>> Years of MTB and flat pedals mean, starting off isn’t a issue or rolling
>>>> along at low speeds even zero speed, which is handy at junctions etc.
>>>>
>>>> My gravel bike is 32-34 which will flatten most roads and give me the
>>>> gearing up most gravel climbs, which are harder work as they tend to take
>>>> more direct ways up, plus being well gravel!
>>>
>>> My most difficult re-starts have been the (very) few times we've had to
>>> stop our tandem during a steep climb. Yes, the slow speed, the low
>>> gearing and the long wheelbase made it tricky.
>>>
>>> But an advantage of flat pedals or pedals with toe clips is that one can
>>> briefly push on the underside of the pedal using the instep of one's
>>> foot to get started. If the situation is the least bit tricky, that's
>>> what I do for a few crank revolutions. I worry about sliding into the
>>> toe clips only once I've got momentum.
>>>
>>>
>> My limit is grip, if it’s too steep and wet then I can’t get enough to get
>> going, I generally start slowly with which ever foot, and (attempt) a
>> smooth pull off, as any bursts of torque will on those sort of climbs spin
>> the wheel out.
>>
>> On road not a problem as well loads of grip and things only get so steep
>> 30ish %
>
> Well I do have trouble believing that you could ride anything other than
> a full suspension up a 30% grade with flat pedals.
>

Why not? cycling is with few exceptions endurance and essentially heart and
lungs sport. And equally folks will have ridden up various hills and more
terrifying down said hills on improbable gearing and technology.

I used clipless for few years, but swapped back to proper flats ie not road
stuff which has nr zero grip. MTB shoes and flats are give a secure hold,
ie your not sliding around but the shoes are pinned in place.

In my experience I certainly couldn’t tell any difference in speed, and to
the best of my knowledge proving the performance of clipless isn’t as easy
as it seems ie it’s mostly about feel.

Roger Merriman.

On Thursday, December 16, 2021 at 5:31:03 PM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Thursday, December 16, 2021 at 3:55:28 AM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
> >> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>> On 12/15/2021 7:42 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> >>>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>> I have the three titanium bikes. The Merlin, the Douglas Ti and the Airborne.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I set them all up more or less identically. Since the Douglas is a 10
> >>>>> speed it has a low gear of 34/28 while the others are 34/32 In practice
> >>>>> this means little since you generally ride a 28 on hard climbs anyway
> >>>>> because lower gears make it impossible to get back on the bike if you are
> >>>>> forced to stop for any reason. The bike won't move far enough forward in
> >>>>> those tiny gears to allow you to clip in with your off-side foot.
> >>>>
> >>>> Years of MTB and flat pedals mean, starting off isn’t a issue or rolling
> >>>> along at low speeds even zero speed, which is handy at junctions etc..
> >>>>
> >>>> My gravel bike is 32-34 which will flatten most roads and give me the
> >>>> gearing up most gravel climbs, which are harder work as they tend to take
> >>>> more direct ways up, plus being well gravel!
> >>>
> >>> My most difficult re-starts have been the (very) few times we've had to
> >>> stop our tandem during a steep climb. Yes, the slow speed, the low
> >>> gearing and the long wheelbase made it tricky.
> >>>
> >>> But an advantage of flat pedals or pedals with toe clips is that one can
> >>> briefly push on the underside of the pedal using the instep of one's
> >>> foot to get started. If the situation is the least bit tricky, that's
> >>> what I do for a few crank revolutions. I worry about sliding into the
> >>> toe clips only once I've got momentum.
> >>>
> >>>
> >> My limit is grip, if it’s too steep and wet then I can’t get enough to get
> >> going, I generally start slowly with which ever foot, and (attempt) a
> >> smooth pull off, as any bursts of torque will on those sort of climbs spin
> >> the wheel out.
> >>
> >> On road not a problem as well loads of grip and things only get so steep
> >> 30ish %
> >
> > Well I do have trouble believing that you could ride anything other than
> > a full suspension up a 30% grade with flat pedals.
> >
> Why not? cycling is with few exceptions endurance and essentially heart and
> lungs sport. And equally folks will have ridden up various hills and more
> terrifying down said hills on improbable gearing and technology.
>
> I used clipless for few years, but swapped back to proper flats ie not road
> stuff which has nr zero grip. MTB shoes and flats are give a secure hold,
> ie your not sliding around but the shoes are pinned in place.
>
> In my experience I certainly couldn’t tell any difference in speed, and to
> the best of my knowledge proving the performance of clipless isn’t as easy
> as it seems ie it’s mostly about feel.
Today which will be one of two clear days for the week, I took the Airborne out for a ride. If you remember, I installed a 70 mm stem and pushed the saddle all the way forward. The effect of this was to make the steering faster with a shorter lever arm and put the center of mass nearer the center of the wheelbase. So what was the result?

Well, with my butt moved further forward it road a little harder which was no big deal, the shorter lever on the fork seemed to greatly improve the handling since you didn't have to move the bars as far to get enough movement.. All in all, it greatly improved the handling of the Airborne. I have set up another set of deep carbon wheels for tubeless operation and will put those on the Merlin as soon as I can find the Campy carbon brake pads from wherever I put them. I want to see if the ride of the Merlin is improved with tubeless to the extent that the Douglas was. You have to fill these tires and then ride them immediately. This sets the sealer into every little crack and crevice. The ones on the Douglas Ti feel fully inflated after two weeks but the new ones never having been ridden went flat overnight. They are sealed well enough that you can simply pump them up with the floor pump but they bleed down overnight. After a ride they should be set.

I'm not wild about tubeless since the tires cost more and you have to carry spare tubes anyway, but they do ride considerably softer.