Gutsick Gibbon is the Youtube handle of a biological anthropology PhD
student named Eriks. Two of her recent videos discuss some of the
latest developments relating to the origins of human bipedalism:

<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbQAgPSHbZE>

The above is a link to a 32-minute video where Erika discusses several
papers relating to Sahelanthropus tchadensis. This fossil is
remarkable in part because it's dated to about 7mya and was found in
central-african Chad, and also because it may be the oldest bipedal
hominin fossil found to date. However, there appears to be strong
disagreement whether the evidence supports bipedalism.

<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nwkfkp360ps>

The above is a link to a 22-minute video where Erika discusses several
hypotheses about *why* our ancestors shifted to obligate bipedalism.
She discusses several hypotheses, and presents compelling arguments
for her preferred one.

On Monday, October 24, 2022 at 2:50:22 AM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
> Gutsick Gibbon is the Youtube handle of a biological anthropology PhD
> student named Eriks. Two of her recent videos discuss some of the
> latest developments relating to the origins of human bipedalism:
>
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbQAgPSHbZE>
>
> The above is a link to a 32-minute video where Erika discusses several
> papers relating to Sahelanthropus tchadensis. This fossil is
> remarkable in part because it's dated to about 7mya and was found in
> central-african Chad, and also because it may be the oldest bipedal
> hominin fossil found to date. However, there appears to be strong
> disagreement whether the evidence supports bipedalism.
>
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nwkfkp360ps>
>
> The above is a link to a 22-minute video where Erika discusses several
> hypotheses about *why* our ancestors shifted to obligate bipedalism.
> She discusses several hypotheses, and presents compelling arguments
> for her preferred one.

Thanks I added a couple comments.

On 10/23/22 11:50 PM, jillery wrote:
> Gutsick Gibbon is the Youtube handle of a biological anthropology PhD
> student named Eriks. Two of her recent videos discuss some of the
> latest developments relating to the origins of human bipedalism:
>
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbQAgPSHbZE>
>
> The above is a link to a 32-minute video where Erika discusses several
> papers relating to Sahelanthropus tchadensis. This fossil is
> remarkable in part because it's dated to about 7mya and was found in
> central-african Chad, and also because it may be the oldest bipedal
> hominin fossil found to date. However, there appears to be strong
> disagreement whether the evidence supports bipedalism.
>
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nwkfkp360ps>
>
> The above is a link to a 22-minute video where Erika discusses several
> hypotheses about *why* our ancestors shifted to obligate bipedalism.
> She discusses several hypotheses, and presents compelling arguments
> for her preferred one.

I tend to think of it as none of the above.

Simply because it is not that easy to stand upright.

When an animal stands upright you need to solve a problem -
how do you keep from falling over forward and backward.

This might seem simple but it is not because with a four
footed animal the center of gravity forward and backward
is between the front legs and the back legs, and often
that is a greater distance than between the left legs and
the right legs.

Some animals that sort of walk on twos have not solved the
problem - a kangaroo can hop but in general it can not
stably stand. Either way, in essence, the long hand enables
force to be supplied to the far front and far back to counter
falling forward or backward - the forefoot and big toe are
the front force appliers and the heel is the back force
applier. Then of course there are some animals that might
sort of walk on threes (I am thinking of the Jerboa) - but
humans have an extra problem because they have no tail to
possibly act as an extra walking limb, or at least a balance.

On Tue, 25 Oct 2022 01:18:27 -0700, Trolidan7
<Trolidan7@eternal-september.org> wrote:

>On 10/23/22 11:50 PM, jillery wrote:
>> Gutsick Gibbon is the Youtube handle of a biological anthropology PhD
>> student named Eriks. Two of her recent videos discuss some of the
>> latest developments relating to the origins of human bipedalism:
>>
>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbQAgPSHbZE>
>>
>> The above is a link to a 32-minute video where Erika discusses several
>> papers relating to Sahelanthropus tchadensis. This fossil is
>> remarkable in part because it's dated to about 7mya and was found in
>> central-african Chad, and also because it may be the oldest bipedal
>> hominin fossil found to date. However, there appears to be strong
>> disagreement whether the evidence supports bipedalism.
>>
>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nwkfkp360ps>
>>
>> The above is a link to a 22-minute video where Erika discusses several
>> hypotheses about *why* our ancestors shifted to obligate bipedalism.
>> She discusses several hypotheses, and presents compelling arguments
>> for her preferred one.
>
>I tend to think of it as none of the above.
>
>Simply because it is not that easy to stand upright.
>
>When an animal stands upright you need to solve a problem -
>how do you keep from falling over forward and backward.
>
>This might seem simple but it is not because with a four
>footed animal the center of gravity forward and backward
>is between the front legs and the back legs, and often
>that is a greater distance than between the left legs and
>the right legs.

Watch the cited videos. Erika points out the challenges of going from
quadruped to biped, the differences between upright posture and
bipedalism, and the plausibility of suspensory orthograde posture in
trees as a precursor to bipedalism on the ground.

>Some animals that sort of walk on twos have not solved the
>problem - a kangaroo can hop but in general it can not
>stably stand. Either way, in essence, the long hand enables
>force to be supplied to the far front and far back to counter
>falling forward or backward - the forefoot and big toe are
>the front force appliers and the heel is the back force
>applier. Then of course there are some animals that might
>sort of walk on threes (I am thinking of the Jerboa) - but
>humans have an extra problem because they have no tail to
>possibly act as an extra walking limb, or at least a balance.

That's why humans like big butts, I can not lie.

On Tuesday, October 25, 2022 at 6:59:05 PM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tue, 25 Oct 2022 01:18:27 -0700, Trolidan7
> <Trol...@eternal-september.org> wrote:
>
> >On 10/23/22 11:50 PM, jillery wrote:
> >> Gutsick Gibbon is the Youtube handle of a biological anthropology PhD
> >> student named Eriks. Two of her recent videos discuss some of the
> >> latest developments relating to the origins of human bipedalism:
> >>
> >> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbQAgPSHbZE>
> >>
> >> The above is a link to a 32-minute video where Erika discusses several
> >> papers relating to Sahelanthropus tchadensis. This fossil is
> >> remarkable in part because it's dated to about 7mya and was found in
> >> central-african Chad, and also because it may be the oldest bipedal
> >> hominin fossil found to date. However, there appears to be strong
> >> disagreement whether the evidence supports bipedalism.
> >>
> >> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nwkfkp360ps>
> >>
> >> The above is a link to a 22-minute video where Erika discusses several
> >> hypotheses about *why* our ancestors shifted to obligate bipedalism.
> >> She discusses several hypotheses, and presents compelling arguments
> >> for her preferred one.
> >
> >I tend to think of it as none of the above.
> >
> >Simply because it is not that easy to stand upright.
> >
> >When an animal stands upright you need to solve a problem -
> >how do you keep from falling over forward and backward.
> >
> >This might seem simple but it is not because with a four
> >footed animal the center of gravity forward and backward
> >is between the front legs and the back legs, and often
> >that is a greater distance than between the left legs and
> >the right legs.
> Watch the cited videos. Erika points out the challenges of going from
> quadruped to biped, the differences between upright posture and
> bipedalism, and the plausibility of suspensory orthograde posture in
> trees as a precursor to bipedalism on the ground.
> >Some animals that sort of walk on twos have not solved the
> >problem - a kangaroo can hop but in general it can not
> >stably stand. Either way, in essence, the long hand enables
> >force to be supplied to the far front and far back to counter
> >falling forward or backward - the forefoot and big toe are
> >the front force appliers and the heel is the back force
> >applier. Then of course there are some animals that might
> >sort of walk on threes (I am thinking of the Jerboa) - but
> >humans have an extra problem because they have no tail to
> >possibly act as an extra walking limb, or at least a balance.
> That's why humans like big butts, I can not lie.

Bigger butt bones, bigger brain bones, initially.
Homo erectus had unusually thick dense femurs and unusually thick dense occiputs (rear skull bone), which counterbalanced the pace over orthogonal bipedal treks on the ground, substituting for the more typical long dense tail of other bipeds (T rex, giant short faced kangaroo, giant ground sloth, running jesus lizard). This primitive mechanical gyroscope was replaced by genetic software improvements enabling reduced body bone weight (esp. femur & occiput), faster & longer bipedal locomotion, drastically reduced climbing/brachiating abilities.

Casually walking while chewing gum, chatting and carrying a squirming child is something only humans could ever do.

On Tue, 25 Oct 2022 16:32:06 -0700 (PDT), Daud Deden
<daud.deden@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Tuesday, October 25, 2022 at 6:59:05 PM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Tue, 25 Oct 2022 01:18:27 -0700, Trolidan7
>> <Trol...@eternal-september.org> wrote:
>>
>> >On 10/23/22 11:50 PM, jillery wrote:
>> >> Gutsick Gibbon is the Youtube handle of a biological anthropology PhD
>> >> student named Eriks. Two of her recent videos discuss some of the
>> >> latest developments relating to the origins of human bipedalism:
>> >>
>> >> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbQAgPSHbZE>
>> >>
>> >> The above is a link to a 32-minute video where Erika discusses several
>> >> papers relating to Sahelanthropus tchadensis. This fossil is
>> >> remarkable in part because it's dated to about 7mya and was found in
>> >> central-african Chad, and also because it may be the oldest bipedal
>> >> hominin fossil found to date. However, there appears to be strong
>> >> disagreement whether the evidence supports bipedalism.
>> >>
>> >> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nwkfkp360ps>
>> >>
>> >> The above is a link to a 22-minute video where Erika discusses several
>> >> hypotheses about *why* our ancestors shifted to obligate bipedalism.
>> >> She discusses several hypotheses, and presents compelling arguments
>> >> for her preferred one.
>> >
>> >I tend to think of it as none of the above.
>> >
>> >Simply because it is not that easy to stand upright.
>> >
>> >When an animal stands upright you need to solve a problem -
>> >how do you keep from falling over forward and backward.
>> >
>> >This might seem simple but it is not because with a four
>> >footed animal the center of gravity forward and backward
>> >is between the front legs and the back legs, and often
>> >that is a greater distance than between the left legs and
>> >the right legs.
>> Watch the cited videos. Erika points out the challenges of going from
>> quadruped to biped, the differences between upright posture and
>> bipedalism, and the plausibility of suspensory orthograde posture in
>> trees as a precursor to bipedalism on the ground.
>> >Some animals that sort of walk on twos have not solved the
>> >problem - a kangaroo can hop but in general it can not
>> >stably stand. Either way, in essence, the long hand enables
>> >force to be supplied to the far front and far back to counter
>> >falling forward or backward - the forefoot and big toe are
>> >the front force appliers and the heel is the back force
>> >applier. Then of course there are some animals that might
>> >sort of walk on threes (I am thinking of the Jerboa) - but
>> >humans have an extra problem because they have no tail to
>> >possibly act as an extra walking limb, or at least a balance.
>> That's why humans like big butts, I can not lie.
>
>Bigger butt bones, bigger brain bones, initially.
>Homo erectus had unusually thick dense femurs and unusually thick dense occiputs (rear skull bone), which counterbalanced the pace over orthogonal bipedal treks on the ground, substituting for the more typical long dense tail of other bipeds (T rex, giant short faced kangaroo, giant ground sloth, running jesus lizard). This primitive mechanical gyroscope was replaced by genetic software improvements enabling reduced body bone weight (esp. femur & occiput), faster & longer bipedal locomotion, drastically reduced climbing/brachiating abilities.
>
>Casually walking while chewing gum, chatting and carrying a squirming child is something only humans could ever do.

@378 cm^3, S. tchadensis' braincase is similar to that of extant
chimpanzees and approximately a third the size of modern human brains.

On Wednesday, October 26, 2022 at 4:10:49 AM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tue, 25 Oct 2022 16:32:06 -0700 (PDT), Daud Deden
> <daud....@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Tuesday, October 25, 2022 at 6:59:05 PM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> On Tue, 25 Oct 2022 01:18:27 -0700, Trolidan7
> >> <Trol...@eternal-september.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> >On 10/23/22 11:50 PM, jillery wrote:
> >> >> Gutsick Gibbon is the Youtube handle of a biological anthropology PhD
> >> >> student named Eriks. Two of her recent videos discuss some of the
> >> >> latest developments relating to the origins of human bipedalism:
> >> >>
> >> >> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbQAgPSHbZE>
> >> >>
> >> >> The above is a link to a 32-minute video where Erika discusses several
> >> >> papers relating to Sahelanthropus tchadensis. This fossil is
> >> >> remarkable in part because it's dated to about 7mya and was found in
> >> >> central-african Chad, and also because it may be the oldest bipedal
> >> >> hominin fossil found to date. However, there appears to be strong
> >> >> disagreement whether the evidence supports bipedalism.
> >> >>
> >> >> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nwkfkp360ps>
> >> >>
> >> >> The above is a link to a 22-minute video where Erika discusses several
> >> >> hypotheses about *why* our ancestors shifted to obligate bipedalism..
> >> >> She discusses several hypotheses, and presents compelling arguments
> >> >> for her preferred one.
> >> >
> >> >I tend to think of it as none of the above.
> >> >
> >> >Simply because it is not that easy to stand upright.
> >> >
> >> >When an animal stands upright you need to solve a problem -
> >> >how do you keep from falling over forward and backward.
> >> >
> >> >This might seem simple but it is not because with a four
> >> >footed animal the center of gravity forward and backward
> >> >is between the front legs and the back legs, and often
> >> >that is a greater distance than between the left legs and
> >> >the right legs.
> >> Watch the cited videos. Erika points out the challenges of going from
> >> quadruped to biped, the differences between upright posture and
> >> bipedalism, and the plausibility of suspensory orthograde posture in
> >> trees as a precursor to bipedalism on the ground.
> >> >Some animals that sort of walk on twos have not solved the
> >> >problem - a kangaroo can hop but in general it can not
> >> >stably stand. Either way, in essence, the long hand enables
> >> >force to be supplied to the far front and far back to counter
> >> >falling forward or backward - the forefoot and big toe are
> >> >the front force appliers and the heel is the back force
> >> >applier. Then of course there are some animals that might
> >> >sort of walk on threes (I am thinking of the Jerboa) - but
> >> >humans have an extra problem because they have no tail to
> >> >possibly act as an extra walking limb, or at least a balance.
> >> That's why humans like big butts, I can not lie.
> >
> >Bigger butt bones, bigger brain bones, initially.
> >Homo erectus had unusually thick dense femurs and unusually thick dense occiputs (rear skull bone), which counterbalanced the pace over orthogonal bipedal treks on the ground, substituting for the more typical long dense tail of other bipeds (T rex, giant short faced kangaroo, giant ground sloth, running jesus lizard). This primitive mechanical gyroscope was replaced by genetic software improvements enabling reduced body bone weight (esp. femur & occiput), faster & longer bipedal locomotion, drastically reduced climbing/brachiating abilities.
> >
> >Casually walking while chewing gum, chatting and carrying a squirming child is something only humans could ever do.
> @378 cm^3, S. tchadensis' braincase is similar to that of extant
> chimpanzees and approximately a third the size of modern human brains.
S chadensis was imo not a habitual nor obligate terrestrial orthograde biped, nor a part-time knucklewalking terrestrial quadruped, its foramen magnum reflected a more primitive arboreal orthograde bipedalism associated with suspensory slow brachiation x arboreal bipedalism, as in European miocene - pliocene apes and similar to but distinct from faster extant gibbons.

Chimps & gorillas became more quadrupedal (partly pronograde terrestrial knucklewalking) while Homo became more bipedal (fully orthograde habitual obligate terrestrial striding), these produced changes of position and orientation of the foramen magnum.

https://carta.anthropogeny.org/moca/topics/foramen-magnum-placement#:~:text=The%20foramen%20magnum%20position%20has,case%20for%20Ardipithecus%20and%20Sahelanthropus.

On Wed, 26 Oct 2022 03:17:08 -0700 (PDT), Daud Deden
<daud.deden@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, October 26, 2022 at 4:10:49 AM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Tue, 25 Oct 2022 16:32:06 -0700 (PDT), Daud Deden
>> <daud....@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Tuesday, October 25, 2022 at 6:59:05 PM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
>> >> On Tue, 25 Oct 2022 01:18:27 -0700, Trolidan7
>> >> <Trol...@eternal-september.org> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >On 10/23/22 11:50 PM, jillery wrote:
>> >> >> Gutsick Gibbon is the Youtube handle of a biological anthropology PhD
>> >> >> student named Eriks. Two of her recent videos discuss some of the
>> >> >> latest developments relating to the origins of human bipedalism:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbQAgPSHbZE>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> The above is a link to a 32-minute video where Erika discusses several
>> >> >> papers relating to Sahelanthropus tchadensis. This fossil is
>> >> >> remarkable in part because it's dated to about 7mya and was found in
>> >> >> central-african Chad, and also because it may be the oldest bipedal
>> >> >> hominin fossil found to date. However, there appears to be strong
>> >> >> disagreement whether the evidence supports bipedalism.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nwkfkp360ps>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> The above is a link to a 22-minute video where Erika discusses several
>> >> >> hypotheses about *why* our ancestors shifted to obligate bipedalism.
>> >> >> She discusses several hypotheses, and presents compelling arguments
>> >> >> for her preferred one.
>> >> >
>> >> >I tend to think of it as none of the above.
>> >> >
>> >> >Simply because it is not that easy to stand upright.
>> >> >
>> >> >When an animal stands upright you need to solve a problem -
>> >> >how do you keep from falling over forward and backward.
>> >> >
>> >> >This might seem simple but it is not because with a four
>> >> >footed animal the center of gravity forward and backward
>> >> >is between the front legs and the back legs, and often
>> >> >that is a greater distance than between the left legs and
>> >> >the right legs.
>> >> Watch the cited videos. Erika points out the challenges of going from
>> >> quadruped to biped, the differences between upright posture and
>> >> bipedalism, and the plausibility of suspensory orthograde posture in
>> >> trees as a precursor to bipedalism on the ground.
>> >> >Some animals that sort of walk on twos have not solved the
>> >> >problem - a kangaroo can hop but in general it can not
>> >> >stably stand. Either way, in essence, the long hand enables
>> >> >force to be supplied to the far front and far back to counter
>> >> >falling forward or backward - the forefoot and big toe are
>> >> >the front force appliers and the heel is the back force
>> >> >applier. Then of course there are some animals that might
>> >> >sort of walk on threes (I am thinking of the Jerboa) - but
>> >> >humans have an extra problem because they have no tail to
>> >> >possibly act as an extra walking limb, or at least a balance.
>> >> That's why humans like big butts, I can not lie.
>> >
>> >Bigger butt bones, bigger brain bones, initially.
>> >Homo erectus had unusually thick dense femurs and unusually thick dense occiputs (rear skull bone), which counterbalanced the pace over orthogonal bipedal treks on the ground, substituting for the more typical long dense tail of other bipeds (T rex, giant short faced kangaroo, giant ground sloth, running jesus lizard). This primitive mechanical gyroscope was replaced by genetic software improvements enabling reduced body bone weight (esp. femur & occiput), faster & longer bipedal locomotion, drastically reduced climbing/brachiating abilities.
>> >
>> >Casually walking while chewing gum, chatting and carrying a squirming child is something only humans could ever do.
>> @378 cm^3, S. tchadensis' braincase is similar to that of extant
>> chimpanzees and approximately a third the size of modern human brains.
>S chadensis was imo not a habitual nor obligate terrestrial orthograde biped, nor a part-time knucklewalking terrestrial quadruped, its foramen magnum reflected a more primitive arboreal orthograde bipedalism associated with suspensory slow brachiation x arboreal bipedalism, as in European miocene - pliocene apes and similar to but distinct from faster extant gibbons.
>
>Chimps & gorillas became more quadrupedal (partly pronograde terrestrial knucklewalking) while Homo became more bipedal (fully orthograde habitual obligate terrestrial striding), these produced changes of position and orientation of the foramen magnum.
>
>https://carta.anthropogeny.org/moca/topics/foramen-magnum-placement#:~:text=The%20foramen%20magnum%20position%20has,case%20for%20Ardipithecus%20and%20Sahelanthropus.

The authors of the paper Erika cited disagree with your opinion.

On Wednesday, October 26, 2022 at 7:56:43 PM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wed, 26 Oct 2022 03:17:08 -0700 (PDT), Daud Deden
> <daud....@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Wednesday, October 26, 2022 at 4:10:49 AM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> On Tue, 25 Oct 2022 16:32:06 -0700 (PDT), Daud Deden
> >> <daud....@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >On Tuesday, October 25, 2022 at 6:59:05 PM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> >> On Tue, 25 Oct 2022 01:18:27 -0700, Trolidan7
> >> >> <Trol...@eternal-september.org> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >On 10/23/22 11:50 PM, jillery wrote:
> >> >> >> Gutsick Gibbon is the Youtube handle of a biological anthropology PhD
> >> >> >> student named Eriks. Two of her recent videos discuss some of the
> >> >> >> latest developments relating to the origins of human bipedalism:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbQAgPSHbZE>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> The above is a link to a 32-minute video where Erika discusses several
> >> >> >> papers relating to Sahelanthropus tchadensis. This fossil is
> >> >> >> remarkable in part because it's dated to about 7mya and was found in
> >> >> >> central-african Chad, and also because it may be the oldest bipedal
> >> >> >> hominin fossil found to date. However, there appears to be strong
> >> >> >> disagreement whether the evidence supports bipedalism.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nwkfkp360ps>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> The above is a link to a 22-minute video where Erika discusses several
> >> >> >> hypotheses about *why* our ancestors shifted to obligate bipedalism.
> >> >> >> She discusses several hypotheses, and presents compelling arguments
> >> >> >> for her preferred one.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >I tend to think of it as none of the above.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Simply because it is not that easy to stand upright.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >When an animal stands upright you need to solve a problem -
> >> >> >how do you keep from falling over forward and backward.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >This might seem simple but it is not because with a four
> >> >> >footed animal the center of gravity forward and backward
> >> >> >is between the front legs and the back legs, and often
> >> >> >that is a greater distance than between the left legs and
> >> >> >the right legs.
> >> >> Watch the cited videos. Erika points out the challenges of going from
> >> >> quadruped to biped, the differences between upright posture and
> >> >> bipedalism, and the plausibility of suspensory orthograde posture in
> >> >> trees as a precursor to bipedalism on the ground.
> >> >> >Some animals that sort of walk on twos have not solved the
> >> >> >problem - a kangaroo can hop but in general it can not
> >> >> >stably stand. Either way, in essence, the long hand enables
> >> >> >force to be supplied to the far front and far back to counter
> >> >> >falling forward or backward - the forefoot and big toe are
> >> >> >the front force appliers and the heel is the back force
> >> >> >applier. Then of course there are some animals that might
> >> >> >sort of walk on threes (I am thinking of the Jerboa) - but
> >> >> >humans have an extra problem because they have no tail to
> >> >> >possibly act as an extra walking limb, or at least a balance.
> >> >> That's why humans like big butts, I can not lie.
> >> >
> >> >Bigger butt bones, bigger brain bones, initially.
> >> >Homo erectus had unusually thick dense femurs and unusually thick dense occiputs (rear skull bone), which counterbalanced the pace over orthogonal bipedal treks on the ground, substituting for the more typical long dense tail of other bipeds (T rex, giant short faced kangaroo, giant ground sloth, running jesus lizard). This primitive mechanical gyroscope was replaced by genetic software improvements enabling reduced body bone weight (esp. femur & occiput), faster & longer bipedal locomotion, drastically reduced climbing/brachiating abilities.
> >> >
> >> >Casually walking while chewing gum, chatting and carrying a squirming child is something only humans could ever do.
> >> @378 cm^3, S. tchadensis' braincase is similar to that of extant
> >> chimpanzees and approximately a third the size of modern human brains.
> >S chadensis was imo not a habitual nor obligate terrestrial orthograde biped, nor a part-time knucklewalking terrestrial quadruped, its foramen magnum reflected a more primitive arboreal orthograde bipedalism associated with suspensory slow brachiation x arboreal bipedalism, as in European miocene - pliocene apes and similar to but distinct from faster extant gibbons.
> >
> >Chimps & gorillas became more quadrupedal (partly pronograde terrestrial knucklewalking) while Homo became more bipedal (fully orthograde habitual obligate terrestrial striding), these produced changes of position and orientation of the foramen magnum.
> >
> >https://carta.anthropogeny.org/moca/topics/foramen-magnum-placement#:~:text=The%20foramen%20magnum%20position%20has,case%20for%20Ardipithecus%20and%20Sahelanthropus.
> The authors of the paper Erika cited disagree with your opinion.
They might
be right.

On Thu, 27 Oct 2022 02:17:42 -0700 (PDT), Daud Deden
<daud.deden@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, October 26, 2022 at 7:56:43 PM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Wed, 26 Oct 2022 03:17:08 -0700 (PDT), Daud Deden
>> <daud....@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Wednesday, October 26, 2022 at 4:10:49 AM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
>> >> On Tue, 25 Oct 2022 16:32:06 -0700 (PDT), Daud Deden
>> >> <daud....@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >On Tuesday, October 25, 2022 at 6:59:05 PM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
>> >> >> On Tue, 25 Oct 2022 01:18:27 -0700, Trolidan7
>> >> >> <Trol...@eternal-september.org> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >On 10/23/22 11:50 PM, jillery wrote:
>> >> >> >> Gutsick Gibbon is the Youtube handle of a biological anthropology PhD
>> >> >> >> student named Eriks. Two of her recent videos discuss some of the
>> >> >> >> latest developments relating to the origins of human bipedalism:
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbQAgPSHbZE>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> The above is a link to a 32-minute video where Erika discusses several
>> >> >> >> papers relating to Sahelanthropus tchadensis. This fossil is
>> >> >> >> remarkable in part because it's dated to about 7mya and was found in
>> >> >> >> central-african Chad, and also because it may be the oldest bipedal
>> >> >> >> hominin fossil found to date. However, there appears to be strong
>> >> >> >> disagreement whether the evidence supports bipedalism.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nwkfkp360ps>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> The above is a link to a 22-minute video where Erika discusses several
>> >> >> >> hypotheses about *why* our ancestors shifted to obligate bipedalism.
>> >> >> >> She discusses several hypotheses, and presents compelling arguments
>> >> >> >> for her preferred one.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >I tend to think of it as none of the above.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >Simply because it is not that easy to stand upright.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >When an animal stands upright you need to solve a problem -
>> >> >> >how do you keep from falling over forward and backward.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >This might seem simple but it is not because with a four
>> >> >> >footed animal the center of gravity forward and backward
>> >> >> >is between the front legs and the back legs, and often
>> >> >> >that is a greater distance than between the left legs and
>> >> >> >the right legs.
>> >> >> Watch the cited videos. Erika points out the challenges of going from
>> >> >> quadruped to biped, the differences between upright posture and
>> >> >> bipedalism, and the plausibility of suspensory orthograde posture in
>> >> >> trees as a precursor to bipedalism on the ground.
>> >> >> >Some animals that sort of walk on twos have not solved the
>> >> >> >problem - a kangaroo can hop but in general it can not
>> >> >> >stably stand. Either way, in essence, the long hand enables
>> >> >> >force to be supplied to the far front and far back to counter
>> >> >> >falling forward or backward - the forefoot and big toe are
>> >> >> >the front force appliers and the heel is the back force
>> >> >> >applier. Then of course there are some animals that might
>> >> >> >sort of walk on threes (I am thinking of the Jerboa) - but
>> >> >> >humans have an extra problem because they have no tail to
>> >> >> >possibly act as an extra walking limb, or at least a balance.
>> >> >> That's why humans like big butts, I can not lie.
>> >> >
>> >> >Bigger butt bones, bigger brain bones, initially.
>> >> >Homo erectus had unusually thick dense femurs and unusually thick dense occiputs (rear skull bone), which counterbalanced the pace over orthogonal bipedal treks on the ground, substituting for the more typical long dense tail of other bipeds (T rex, giant short faced kangaroo, giant ground sloth, running jesus lizard). This primitive mechanical gyroscope was replaced by genetic software improvements enabling reduced body bone weight (esp. femur & occiput), faster & longer bipedal locomotion, drastically reduced climbing/brachiating abilities.
>> >> >
>> >> >Casually walking while chewing gum, chatting and carrying a squirming child is something only humans could ever do.
>> >> @378 cm^3, S. tchadensis' braincase is similar to that of extant
>> >> chimpanzees and approximately a third the size of modern human brains.
>> >S chadensis was imo not a habitual nor obligate terrestrial orthograde biped, nor a part-time knucklewalking terrestrial quadruped, its foramen magnum reflected a more primitive arboreal orthograde bipedalism associated with suspensory slow brachiation x arboreal bipedalism, as in European miocene - pliocene apes and similar to but distinct from faster extant gibbons.
>> >
>> >Chimps & gorillas became more quadrupedal (partly pronograde terrestrial knucklewalking) while Homo became more bipedal (fully orthograde habitual obligate terrestrial striding), these produced changes of position and orientation of the foramen magnum.
>> >
>> >https://carta.anthropogeny.org/moca/topics/foramen-magnum-placement#:~:text=The%20foramen%20magnum%20position%20has,case%20for%20Ardipithecus%20and%20Sahelanthropus.
>> The authors of the paper Erika cited disagree with your opinion.
>They might be right.

If only there were some way to judge between contrasting opinions...

On Thursday, October 27, 2022 at 5:53:29 AM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thu, 27 Oct 2022 02:17:42 -0700 (PDT), Daud Deden
> <daud....@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Wednesday, October 26, 2022 at 7:56:43 PM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> On Wed, 26 Oct 2022 03:17:08 -0700 (PDT), Daud Deden
> >> <daud....@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >On Wednesday, October 26, 2022 at 4:10:49 AM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> >> On Tue, 25 Oct 2022 16:32:06 -0700 (PDT), Daud Deden
> >> >> <daud....@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >On Tuesday, October 25, 2022 at 6:59:05 PM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> >> >> On Tue, 25 Oct 2022 01:18:27 -0700, Trolidan7
> >> >> >> <Trol...@eternal-september.org> wrote:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >On 10/23/22 11:50 PM, jillery wrote:
> >> >> >> >> Gutsick Gibbon is the Youtube handle of a biological anthropology PhD
> >> >> >> >> student named Eriks. Two of her recent videos discuss some of the
> >> >> >> >> latest developments relating to the origins of human bipedalism:
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbQAgPSHbZE>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> The above is a link to a 32-minute video where Erika discusses several
> >> >> >> >> papers relating to Sahelanthropus tchadensis. This fossil is
> >> >> >> >> remarkable in part because it's dated to about 7mya and was found in
> >> >> >> >> central-african Chad, and also because it may be the oldest bipedal
> >> >> >> >> hominin fossil found to date. However, there appears to be strong
> >> >> >> >> disagreement whether the evidence supports bipedalism.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nwkfkp360ps>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> The above is a link to a 22-minute video where Erika discusses several
> >> >> >> >> hypotheses about *why* our ancestors shifted to obligate bipedalism.
> >> >> >> >> She discusses several hypotheses, and presents compelling arguments
> >> >> >> >> for her preferred one.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >I tend to think of it as none of the above.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >Simply because it is not that easy to stand upright.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >When an animal stands upright you need to solve a problem -
> >> >> >> >how do you keep from falling over forward and backward.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >This might seem simple but it is not because with a four
> >> >> >> >footed animal the center of gravity forward and backward
> >> >> >> >is between the front legs and the back legs, and often
> >> >> >> >that is a greater distance than between the left legs and
> >> >> >> >the right legs.
> >> >> >> Watch the cited videos. Erika points out the challenges of going from
> >> >> >> quadruped to biped, the differences between upright posture and
> >> >> >> bipedalism, and the plausibility of suspensory orthograde posture in
> >> >> >> trees as a precursor to bipedalism on the ground.
> >> >> >> >Some animals that sort of walk on twos have not solved the
> >> >> >> >problem - a kangaroo can hop but in general it can not
> >> >> >> >stably stand. Either way, in essence, the long hand enables
> >> >> >> >force to be supplied to the far front and far back to counter
> >> >> >> >falling forward or backward - the forefoot and big toe are
> >> >> >> >the front force appliers and the heel is the back force
> >> >> >> >applier. Then of course there are some animals that might
> >> >> >> >sort of walk on threes (I am thinking of the Jerboa) - but
> >> >> >> >humans have an extra problem because they have no tail to
> >> >> >> >possibly act as an extra walking limb, or at least a balance.
> >> >> >> That's why humans like big butts, I can not lie.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Bigger butt bones, bigger brain bones, initially.
> >> >> >Homo erectus had unusually thick dense femurs and unusually thick dense occiputs (rear skull bone), which counterbalanced the pace over orthogonal bipedal treks on the ground, substituting for the more typical long dense tail of other bipeds (T rex, giant short faced kangaroo, giant ground sloth, running jesus lizard). This primitive mechanical gyroscope was replaced by genetic software improvements enabling reduced body bone weight (esp.. femur & occiput), faster & longer bipedal locomotion, drastically reduced climbing/brachiating abilities.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Casually walking while chewing gum, chatting and carrying a squirming child is something only humans could ever do.
> >> >> @378 cm^3, S. tchadensis' braincase is similar to that of extant
> >> >> chimpanzees and approximately a third the size of modern human brains.
> >> >S chadensis was imo not a habitual nor obligate terrestrial orthograde biped, nor a part-time knucklewalking terrestrial quadruped, its foramen magnum reflected a more primitive arboreal orthograde bipedalism associated with suspensory slow brachiation x arboreal bipedalism, as in European miocene - pliocene apes and similar to but distinct from faster extant gibbons..
> >> >
> >> >Chimps & gorillas became more quadrupedal (partly pronograde terrestrial knucklewalking) while Homo became more bipedal (fully orthograde habitual obligate terrestrial striding), these produced changes of position and orientation of the foramen magnum.
> >> >
> >> >https://carta.anthropogeny.org/moca/topics/foramen-magnum-placement#:~:text=The%20foramen%20magnum%20position%20has,case%20for%20Ardipithecus%20and%20Sahelanthropus.
> >> The authors of the paper Erika cited disagree with your opinion.
> >They might be right.
> If only there were some way to judge between contrasting opinions...

Parsimony is good.
Please direct me to the author(s) who disagree with what I wrote earlier. I don't know where to start, which vid, which paper... I'll examine inconsistencies (their or mine).
DD

How about that! You, who seldom post here, actually did an on-topic OP.
This puts you ahead of John Harshman: in the almost dozen years
since I returned here, I don't recall him ever doing an on-topic OP to sci.bio.paleontology.
This despite the fact that he has probably done a few thousand posts
here in that time.

I do have a few recommendations. The optimal place to post information about
homini is sci.anthropology.paleo. Not only are they the "specialty" of that ng,
it is more active, with more regulars than s.b.p. Best of all perhaps, Pandora
takes a very active part there, going into depth with one person after another.
Pandora occasionally posts to s.b.p. too, but the majority of her posts here are OP's.
They are almost invariably excellent and thought-provoking, but she seldom
comments on the thoughts she has provoked, even when they are on-topic
in every sense of the word.

On Monday, October 24, 2022 at 2:50:22 AM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:

> Gutsick Gibbon is the Youtube handle of a biological anthropology PhD
> student named Eriks. Two of her recent videos discuss some of the
> latest developments relating to the origins of human bipedalism:
>
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbQAgPSHbZE>
>
> The above is a link to a 32-minute video where Erika discusses several
> papers relating to Sahelanthropus tchadensis.

I don't have enough time this evening to watch either this video or
the one you mention below. This being a science ng, it is very
appropriate to give the titles of these papers. Those of us who
are interested in research papers shouldn't have to sit through a video
to find out what they are.

> This fossil is remarkable in part because it's dated to about 7mya and was found in
> central-african Chad, and also because it may be the oldest bipedal
> hominin fossil found to date. However, there appears to be strong
> disagreement whether the evidence supports bipedalism.
>
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nwkfkp360ps>
>
> The above is a link to a 22-minute video where Erika discusses several
> hypotheses about *why* our ancestors shifted to obligate bipedalism.
> She discusses several hypotheses, and presents compelling arguments
> for her preferred one.

In science, hypotheses on such an open ended theme are seldom
compelling. Before you decide to post this to s.a.p., I strongly recommend
that you state this preferred hypothesis; some people there may already
have heard of it (especially Pandora, who comes across as a professional
well past the age of earning the Ph.D.) and have formulated ideas about it.

Peter Nyikos
Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
University of South Carolina
http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos

On Tuesday, October 25, 2022 at 4:18:31 AM UTC-4, Trolidan7 wrote:
> On 10/23/22 11:50 PM, jillery wrote:
> > Gutsick Gibbon is the Youtube handle of a biological anthropology PhD
> > student named Eriks. Two of her recent videos discuss some of the
> > latest developments relating to the origins of human bipedalism:
> >
> > <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbQAgPSHbZE>
> >
> > The above is a link to a 32-minute video where Erika discusses several
> > papers relating to Sahelanthropus tchadensis. This fossil is
> > remarkable in part because it's dated to about 7mya and was found in
> > central-african Chad, and also because it may be the oldest bipedal
> > hominin fossil found to date. However, there appears to be strong
> > disagreement whether the evidence supports bipedalism.
> >
> > <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nwkfkp360ps>
> >
> > The above is a link to a 22-minute video where Erika discusses several
> > hypotheses about *why* our ancestors shifted to obligate bipedalism.
> > She discusses several hypotheses, and presents compelling arguments
> > for her preferred one.

> I tend to think of it as none of the above.

Did you watch the video, to see what they were?

Granted, with an open-ended subject like bipedalism, it is quite
unlikely that any "why" that we humans can easily formulate
gives a reason that is anywhere near complete. It's almost
as bad as theories about how we developed such amazingly
sophisticated speech. Simplified theories have been
given derisive names like "bow-wow theory" and "ding-dong theory"
or even been accused of being "pseudoscientific."

> Simply because it is not that easy to stand upright.
>
> When an animal stands upright you need to solve a problem -
> how do you keep from falling over forward and backward.
>
> This might seem simple but it is not because with a four
> footed animal the center of gravity forward and backward
> is between the front legs and the back legs, and often
> that is a greater distance than between the left legs and
> the right legs.
>
> Some animals that sort of walk on twos have not solved the
> problem - a kangaroo can hop but in general it can not
> stably stand.

On the other hand, sifakas, the avahi, and the indri -- all lemurs -- are even more
obligate bipedal than we are: their forelimbs are even shorter
in proportion to their hindlimbs than ours are.

Their primary way of getting from one place to another
is fully bipedal hopping, generally between trees.
However, I have a book with a photograph
in which a sifaka has a very typically human style
running pose, with arms swinging in opposite
orientation to her wide-apart (from front to back) legs.

> Either way, in essence, the long hand enables
> force to be supplied to the far front and far back to counter
> falling forward or backward - the forefoot and big toe are
> the front force appliers and the heel is the back force
> applier. Then of course there are some animals that might
> sort of walk on threes (I am thinking of the Jerboa) - but
> humans have an extra problem because they have no tail to
> possibly act as an extra walking limb, or at least a balance.

Indris have almost lost their tails, but you've made me wonder
whether the long, narrow tail of that sifaka was an aid in
balancing, making that human-like stride possible.

Peter Nyikos
Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
Univ. of South Carolina at Columbia
http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos

On Thu, 27 Oct 2022 18:42:42 -0700 (PDT), Peter Nyikos
<peter2nyikos@gmail.com> wrote:

>How about that! You, who seldom post here, actually did an on-topic OP.
>This puts you ahead of John Harshman: in the almost dozen years
>since I returned here, I don't recall him ever doing an on-topic OP to sci.bio.paleontology.
>This despite the fact that he has probably done a few thousand posts
>here in that time.
>
>I do have a few recommendations. The optimal place to post information about
>homini is sci.anthropology.paleo. Not only are they the "specialty" of that ng,
>it is more active, with more regulars than s.b.p. Best of all perhaps, Pandora
>takes a very active part there, going into depth with one person after another.
>Pandora occasionally posts to s.b.p. too, but the majority of her posts here are OP's.
>They are almost invariably excellent and thought-provoking, but she seldom
>comments on the thoughts she has provoked, even when they are on-topic
>in every sense of the word.
>
>On Monday, October 24, 2022 at 2:50:22 AM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> Gutsick Gibbon is the Youtube handle of a biological anthropology PhD
>> student named Erika. Two of her recent videos discuss some of the
>> latest developments relating to the origins of human bipedalism:
>>
>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbQAgPSHbZE>
>>
>> The above is a link to a 32-minute video where Erika discusses several
>> papers relating to Sahelanthropus tchadensis.
>
>I don't have enough time this evening to watch either this video or
>the one you mention below. This being a science ng, it is very
>appropriate to give the titles of these papers. Those of us who
>are interested in research papers shouldn't have to sit through a video
>to find out what they are.
>
>
>> This fossil is remarkable in part because it's dated to about 7mya and was found in
>> central-african Chad, and also because it may be the oldest bipedal
>> hominin fossil found to date. However, there appears to be strong
>> disagreement whether the evidence supports bipedalism.
>>
>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nwkfkp360ps>
>>
>> The above is a link to a 22-minute video where Erika discusses several
>> hypotheses about *why* our ancestors shifted to obligate bipedalism.
>> She discusses several hypotheses, and presents compelling arguments
>> for her preferred one.
>
>In science, hypotheses on such an open ended theme are seldom
>compelling. Before you decide to post this to s.a.p., I strongly recommend
>that you state this preferred hypothesis; some people there may already
>have heard of it (especially Pandora, who comes across as a professional
>well past the age of earning the Ph.D.) and have formulated ideas about it.

The videos are comparable to college-level lectures. Anybody who is
actually interested in the topic can easily find the answers to your
questions in the cited videos. Anybody who is more interested in
posting transparent obfuscating noise won't bother no matter what I
post.

On Thu, 27 Oct 2022 16:44:19 -0700 (PDT), Daud Deden
<daud.deden@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Thursday, October 27, 2022 at 5:53:29 AM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Thu, 27 Oct 2022 02:17:42 -0700 (PDT), Daud Deden
>> <daud....@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Wednesday, October 26, 2022 at 7:56:43 PM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
>> >> On Wed, 26 Oct 2022 03:17:08 -0700 (PDT), Daud Deden
>> >> <daud....@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >On Wednesday, October 26, 2022 at 4:10:49 AM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
>> >> >> On Tue, 25 Oct 2022 16:32:06 -0700 (PDT), Daud Deden
>> >> >> <daud....@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >On Tuesday, October 25, 2022 at 6:59:05 PM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
>> >> >> >> On Tue, 25 Oct 2022 01:18:27 -0700, Trolidan7
>> >> >> >> <Trol...@eternal-september.org> wrote:
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >On 10/23/22 11:50 PM, jillery wrote:
>> >> >> >> >> Gutsick Gibbon is the Youtube handle of a biological anthropology PhD
>> >> >> >> >> student named Erika. Two of her recent videos discuss some of the
>> >> >> >> >> latest developments relating to the origins of human bipedalism:
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbQAgPSHbZE>
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> The above is a link to a 32-minute video where Erika discusses several
>> >> >> >> >> papers relating to Sahelanthropus tchadensis. This fossil is
>> >> >> >> >> remarkable in part because it's dated to about 7mya and was found in
>> >> >> >> >> central-african Chad, and also because it may be the oldest bipedal
>> >> >> >> >> hominin fossil found to date. However, there appears to be strong
>> >> >> >> >> disagreement whether the evidence supports bipedalism.
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nwkfkp360ps>
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> The above is a link to a 22-minute video where Erika discusses several
>> >> >> >> >> hypotheses about *why* our ancestors shifted to obligate bipedalism.
>> >> >> >> >> She discusses several hypotheses, and presents compelling arguments
>> >> >> >> >> for her preferred one.
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >I tend to think of it as none of the above.
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >Simply because it is not that easy to stand upright.
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >When an animal stands upright you need to solve a problem -
>> >> >> >> >how do you keep from falling over forward and backward.
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >This might seem simple but it is not because with a four
>> >> >> >> >footed animal the center of gravity forward and backward
>> >> >> >> >is between the front legs and the back legs, and often
>> >> >> >> >that is a greater distance than between the left legs and
>> >> >> >> >the right legs.
>> >> >> >> Watch the cited videos. Erika points out the challenges of going from
>> >> >> >> quadruped to biped, the differences between upright posture and
>> >> >> >> bipedalism, and the plausibility of suspensory orthograde posture in
>> >> >> >> trees as a precursor to bipedalism on the ground.
>> >> >> >> >Some animals that sort of walk on twos have not solved the
>> >> >> >> >problem - a kangaroo can hop but in general it can not
>> >> >> >> >stably stand. Either way, in essence, the long hand enables
>> >> >> >> >force to be supplied to the far front and far back to counter
>> >> >> >> >falling forward or backward - the forefoot and big toe are
>> >> >> >> >the front force appliers and the heel is the back force
>> >> >> >> >applier. Then of course there are some animals that might
>> >> >> >> >sort of walk on threes (I am thinking of the Jerboa) - but
>> >> >> >> >humans have an extra problem because they have no tail to
>> >> >> >> >possibly act as an extra walking limb, or at least a balance.
>> >> >> >> That's why humans like big butts, I can not lie.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >Bigger butt bones, bigger brain bones, initially.
>> >> >> >Homo erectus had unusually thick dense femurs and unusually thick dense occiputs (rear skull bone), which counterbalanced the pace over orthogonal bipedal treks on the ground, substituting for the more typical long dense tail of other bipeds (T rex, giant short faced kangaroo, giant ground sloth, running jesus lizard). This primitive mechanical gyroscope was replaced by genetic software improvements enabling reduced body bone weight (esp. femur & occiput), faster & longer bipedal locomotion, drastically reduced climbing/brachiating abilities.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >Casually walking while chewing gum, chatting and carrying a squirming child is something only humans could ever do.
>> >> >> @378 cm^3, S. tchadensis' braincase is similar to that of extant
>> >> >> chimpanzees and approximately a third the size of modern human brains.
>> >> >S chadensis was imo not a habitual nor obligate terrestrial orthograde biped, nor a part-time knucklewalking terrestrial quadruped, its foramen magnum reflected a more primitive arboreal orthograde bipedalism associated with suspensory slow brachiation x arboreal bipedalism, as in European miocene - pliocene apes and similar to but distinct from faster extant gibbons.
>> >> >
>> >> >Chimps & gorillas became more quadrupedal (partly pronograde terrestrial knucklewalking) while Homo became more bipedal (fully orthograde habitual obligate terrestrial striding), these produced changes of position and orientation of the foramen magnum.
>> >> >
>> >> >https://carta.anthropogeny.org/moca/topics/foramen-magnum-placement#:~:text=The%20foramen%20magnum%20position%20has,case%20for%20Ardipithecus%20and%20Sahelanthropus.
>> >> The authors of the paper Erika cited disagree with your opinion.
>> >They might be right.
>> If only there were some way to judge between contrasting opinions...
>
>Parsimony is good.
>Please direct me to the author(s) who disagree with what I wrote earlier. I don't know where to start, which vid, which paper... I'll examine inconsistencies (their or mine).

Once again, watch the cited video. Erika identifies the paper in the
first few minutes of the first vdeo. But if you watch/listen to all
of both, you might actually learn something.

On Thursday, October 27, 2022 at 10:56:53 PM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thu, 27 Oct 2022 16:44:19 -0700 (PDT), Daud Deden
> <daud....@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Thursday, October 27, 2022 at 5:53:29 AM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> On Thu, 27 Oct 2022 02:17:42 -0700 (PDT), Daud Deden
> >> <daud....@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >On Wednesday, October 26, 2022 at 7:56:43 PM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> >> On Wed, 26 Oct 2022 03:17:08 -0700 (PDT), Daud Deden
> >> >> <daud....@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >On Wednesday, October 26, 2022 at 4:10:49 AM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> >> >> On Tue, 25 Oct 2022 16:32:06 -0700 (PDT), Daud Deden
> >> >> >> <daud....@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >On Tuesday, October 25, 2022 at 6:59:05 PM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail..com wrote:
> >> >> >> >> On Tue, 25 Oct 2022 01:18:27 -0700, Trolidan7
> >> >> >> >> <Trol...@eternal-september.org> wrote:
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >On 10/23/22 11:50 PM, jillery wrote:
> >> >> >> >> >> Gutsick Gibbon is the Youtube handle of a biological anthropology PhD
> >> >> >> >> >> student named Erika. Two of her recent videos discuss some of the
> >> >> >> >> >> latest developments relating to the origins of human bipedalism:
> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbQAgPSHbZE>
> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> The above is a link to a 32-minute video where Erika discusses several
> >> >> >> >> >> papers relating to Sahelanthropus tchadensis. This fossil is
> >> >> >> >> >> remarkable in part because it's dated to about 7mya and was found in
> >> >> >> >> >> central-african Chad, and also because it may be the oldest bipedal
> >> >> >> >> >> hominin fossil found to date. However, there appears to be strong
> >> >> >> >> >> disagreement whether the evidence supports bipedalism.
> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nwkfkp360ps>
> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> The above is a link to a 22-minute video where Erika discusses several
> >> >> >> >> >> hypotheses about *why* our ancestors shifted to obligate bipedalism.
> >> >> >> >> >> She discusses several hypotheses, and presents compelling arguments
> >> >> >> >> >> for her preferred one.
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >I tend to think of it as none of the above.
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >Simply because it is not that easy to stand upright.
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >When an animal stands upright you need to solve a problem -
> >> >> >> >> >how do you keep from falling over forward and backward.
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >This might seem simple but it is not because with a four
> >> >> >> >> >footed animal the center of gravity forward and backward
> >> >> >> >> >is between the front legs and the back legs, and often
> >> >> >> >> >that is a greater distance than between the left legs and
> >> >> >> >> >the right legs.
> >> >> >> >> Watch the cited videos. Erika points out the challenges of going from
> >> >> >> >> quadruped to biped, the differences between upright posture and
> >> >> >> >> bipedalism, and the plausibility of suspensory orthograde posture in
> >> >> >> >> trees as a precursor to bipedalism on the ground.
> >> >> >> >> >Some animals that sort of walk on twos have not solved the
> >> >> >> >> >problem - a kangaroo can hop but in general it can not
> >> >> >> >> >stably stand. Either way, in essence, the long hand enables
> >> >> >> >> >force to be supplied to the far front and far back to counter
> >> >> >> >> >falling forward or backward - the forefoot and big toe are
> >> >> >> >> >the front force appliers and the heel is the back force
> >> >> >> >> >applier. Then of course there are some animals that might
> >> >> >> >> >sort of walk on threes (I am thinking of the Jerboa) - but
> >> >> >> >> >humans have an extra problem because they have no tail to
> >> >> >> >> >possibly act as an extra walking limb, or at least a balance..
> >> >> >> >> That's why humans like big butts, I can not lie.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >Bigger butt bones, bigger brain bones, initially.
> >> >> >> >Homo erectus had unusually thick dense femurs and unusually thick dense occiputs (rear skull bone), which counterbalanced the pace over orthogonal bipedal treks on the ground, substituting for the more typical long dense tail of other bipeds (T rex, giant short faced kangaroo, giant ground sloth, running jesus lizard). This primitive mechanical gyroscope was replaced by genetic software improvements enabling reduced body bone weight (esp. femur & occiput), faster & longer bipedal locomotion, drastically reduced climbing/brachiating abilities.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >Casually walking while chewing gum, chatting and carrying a squirming child is something only humans could ever do.
> >> >> >> @378 cm^3, S. tchadensis' braincase is similar to that of extant
> >> >> >> chimpanzees and approximately a third the size of modern human brains.
> >> >> >S chadensis was imo not a habitual nor obligate terrestrial orthograde biped, nor a part-time knucklewalking terrestrial quadruped, its foramen magnum reflected a more primitive arboreal orthograde bipedalism associated with suspensory slow brachiation x arboreal bipedalism, as in European miocene - pliocene apes and similar to but distinct from faster extant gibbons.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Chimps & gorillas became more quadrupedal (partly pronograde terrestrial knucklewalking) while Homo became more bipedal (fully orthograde habitual obligate terrestrial striding), these produced changes of position and orientation of the foramen magnum.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >https://carta.anthropogeny.org/moca/topics/foramen-magnum-placement#:~:text=The%20foramen%20magnum%20position%20has,case%20for%20Ardipithecus%20and%20Sahelanthropus.
> >> >> The authors of the paper Erika cited disagree with your opinion.
> >> >They might be right.
> >> If only there were some way to judge between contrasting opinions...
> >
> >Parsimony is good.
> >Please direct me to the author(s) who disagree with what I wrote earlier.. I don't know where to start, which vid, which paper... I'll examine inconsistencies (their or mine).
> Once again, watch the cited video. Erika identifies the paper in the
> first few minutes of the first vdeo. But if you watch/listen to all
> of both, you might actually learn something.
Ok, I'd watched half of the 2nd video. I'll watch both tomorrow. I'll certainly learn something, I always do. For now, I stand behind every word I wrote earlier about Homo & Sahelanthropus.

On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 12:13:33 AM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> On Thursday, October 27, 2022 at 10:56:53 PM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Thu, 27 Oct 2022 16:44:19 -0700 (PDT), Daud Deden
> > <daud....@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > >On Thursday, October 27, 2022 at 5:53:29 AM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >> On Thu, 27 Oct 2022 02:17:42 -0700 (PDT), Daud Deden
> > >> <daud....@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> >On Wednesday, October 26, 2022 at 7:56:43 PM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >> >> On Wed, 26 Oct 2022 03:17:08 -0700 (PDT), Daud Deden
> > >> >> <daud....@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> >>
> > >> >> >On Wednesday, October 26, 2022 at 4:10:49 AM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >> >> >> On Tue, 25 Oct 2022 16:32:06 -0700 (PDT), Daud Deden
> > >> >> >> <daud....@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> >On Tuesday, October 25, 2022 at 6:59:05 PM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >> >> >> >> On Tue, 25 Oct 2022 01:18:27 -0700, Trolidan7
> > >> >> >> >> <Trol...@eternal-september.org> wrote:
> > >> >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> >> >On 10/23/22 11:50 PM, jillery wrote:
> > >> >> >> >> >> Gutsick Gibbon is the Youtube handle of a biological anthropology PhD
> > >> >> >> >> >> student named Erika. Two of her recent videos discuss some of the
> > >> >> >> >> >> latest developments relating to the origins of human bipedalism:
> > >> >> >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> >> >> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbQAgPSHbZE>
> > >> >> >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> >> >> The above is a link to a 32-minute video where Erika discusses several
> > >> >> >> >> >> papers relating to Sahelanthropus tchadensis. This fossil is
> > >> >> >> >> >> remarkable in part because it's dated to about 7mya and was found in
> > >> >> >> >> >> central-african Chad, and also because it may be the oldest bipedal
> > >> >> >> >> >> hominin fossil found to date. However, there appears to be strong
> > >> >> >> >> >> disagreement whether the evidence supports bipedalism.
> > >> >> >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> >> >> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nwkfkp360ps>
> > >> >> >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> >> >> The above is a link to a 22-minute video where Erika discusses several
> > >> >> >> >> >> hypotheses about *why* our ancestors shifted to obligate bipedalism.
> > >> >> >> >> >> She discusses several hypotheses, and presents compelling arguments
> > >> >> >> >> >> for her preferred one.
> > >> >> >> >> >
> > >> >> >> >> >I tend to think of it as none of the above.
> > >> >> >> >> >
> > >> >> >> >> >Simply because it is not that easy to stand upright.
> > >> >> >> >> >
> > >> >> >> >> >When an animal stands upright you need to solve a problem -
> > >> >> >> >> >how do you keep from falling over forward and backward.
> > >> >> >> >> >
> > >> >> >> >> >This might seem simple but it is not because with a four
> > >> >> >> >> >footed animal the center of gravity forward and backward
> > >> >> >> >> >is between the front legs and the back legs, and often
> > >> >> >> >> >that is a greater distance than between the left legs and
> > >> >> >> >> >the right legs.
> > >> >> >> >> Watch the cited videos. Erika points out the challenges of going from
> > >> >> >> >> quadruped to biped, the differences between upright posture and
> > >> >> >> >> bipedalism, and the plausibility of suspensory orthograde posture in
> > >> >> >> >> trees as a precursor to bipedalism on the ground.
> > >> >> >> >> >Some animals that sort of walk on twos have not solved the
> > >> >> >> >> >problem - a kangaroo can hop but in general it can not
> > >> >> >> >> >stably stand. Either way, in essence, the long hand enables
> > >> >> >> >> >force to be supplied to the far front and far back to counter
> > >> >> >> >> >falling forward or backward - the forefoot and big toe are
> > >> >> >> >> >the front force appliers and the heel is the back force
> > >> >> >> >> >applier. Then of course there are some animals that might
> > >> >> >> >> >sort of walk on threes (I am thinking of the Jerboa) - but
> > >> >> >> >> >humans have an extra problem because they have no tail to
> > >> >> >> >> >possibly act as an extra walking limb, or at least a balance.
> > >> >> >> >> That's why humans like big butts, I can not lie.
> > >> >> >> >
> > >> >> >> >Bigger butt bones, bigger brain bones, initially.
> > >> >> >> >Homo erectus had unusually thick dense femurs and unusually thick dense occiputs (rear skull bone), which counterbalanced the pace over orthogonal bipedal treks on the ground, substituting for the more typical long dense tail of other bipeds (T rex, giant short faced kangaroo, giant ground sloth, running jesus lizard). This primitive mechanical gyroscope was replaced by genetic software improvements enabling reduced body bone weight (esp. femur & occiput), faster & longer bipedal locomotion, drastically reduced climbing/brachiating abilities.
> > >> >> >> >
> > >> >> >> >Casually walking while chewing gum, chatting and carrying a squirming child is something only humans could ever do.
> > >> >> >> @378 cm^3, S. tchadensis' braincase is similar to that of extant
> > >> >> >> chimpanzees and approximately a third the size of modern human brains.
> > >> >> >S chadensis was imo not a habitual nor obligate terrestrial orthograde biped, nor a part-time knucklewalking terrestrial quadruped, its foramen magnum reflected a more primitive arboreal orthograde bipedalism associated with suspensory slow brachiation x arboreal bipedalism, as in European miocene - pliocene apes and similar to but distinct from faster extant gibbons.
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >Chimps & gorillas became more quadrupedal (partly pronograde terrestrial knucklewalking) while Homo became more bipedal (fully orthograde habitual obligate terrestrial striding), these produced changes of position and orientation of the foramen magnum.
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >https://carta.anthropogeny.org/moca/topics/foramen-magnum-placement#:~:text=The%20foramen%20magnum%20position%20has,case%20for%20Ardipithecus%20and%20Sahelanthropus.
> > >> >> The authors of the paper Erika cited disagree with your opinion.
> > >> >They might be right.
> > >> If only there were some way to judge between contrasting opinions...
> > >
> > >Parsimony is good.
> > >Please direct me to the author(s) who disagree with what I wrote earlier. I don't know where to start, which vid, which paper... I'll examine inconsistencies (their or mine).
> > Once again, watch the cited video. Erika identifies the paper in the
> > first few minutes of the first vdeo. But if you watch/listen to all
> > of both, you might actually learn something.
> Ok, I'd watched half of the 2nd video. I'll watch both tomorrow. I'll certainly learn something, I always do. For now, I stand behind every word I wrote earlier about Homo & Sahelanthropus.
After a sneak peek, I see the paper, Postcranial ..., about the femur. I've skimmed it, no change in my thinking. But I'm flexible.

On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 12:20:59 AM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 12:13:33 AM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > On Thursday, October 27, 2022 at 10:56:53 PM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Thu, 27 Oct 2022 16:44:19 -0700 (PDT), Daud Deden
> > > <daud....@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > >On Thursday, October 27, 2022 at 5:53:29 AM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > >> On Thu, 27 Oct 2022 02:17:42 -0700 (PDT), Daud Deden
> > > >> <daud....@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> >On Wednesday, October 26, 2022 at 7:56:43 PM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail..com wrote:
> > > >> >> On Wed, 26 Oct 2022 03:17:08 -0700 (PDT), Daud Deden
> > > >> >> <daud....@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> >On Wednesday, October 26, 2022 at 4:10:49 AM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > >> >> >> On Tue, 25 Oct 2022 16:32:06 -0700 (PDT), Daud Deden
> > > >> >> >> <daud....@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >> >> >>
> > > >> >> >> >On Tuesday, October 25, 2022 at 6:59:05 PM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > >> >> >> >> On Tue, 25 Oct 2022 01:18:27 -0700, Trolidan7
> > > >> >> >> >> <Trol...@eternal-september.org> wrote:
> > > >> >> >> >>
> > > >> >> >> >> >On 10/23/22 11:50 PM, jillery wrote:
> > > >> >> >> >> >> Gutsick Gibbon is the Youtube handle of a biological anthropology PhD
> > > >> >> >> >> >> student named Erika. Two of her recent videos discuss some of the
> > > >> >> >> >> >> latest developments relating to the origins of human bipedalism:
> > > >> >> >> >> >>
> > > >> >> >> >> >> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbQAgPSHbZE>
> > > >> >> >> >> >>
> > > >> >> >> >> >> The above is a link to a 32-minute video where Erika discusses several
> > > >> >> >> >> >> papers relating to Sahelanthropus tchadensis. This fossil is
> > > >> >> >> >> >> remarkable in part because it's dated to about 7mya and was found in
> > > >> >> >> >> >> central-african Chad, and also because it may be the oldest bipedal
> > > >> >> >> >> >> hominin fossil found to date. However, there appears to be strong
> > > >> >> >> >> >> disagreement whether the evidence supports bipedalism.
> > > >> >> >> >> >>
> > > >> >> >> >> >> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nwkfkp360ps>
> > > >> >> >> >> >>
> > > >> >> >> >> >> The above is a link to a 22-minute video where Erika discusses several
> > > >> >> >> >> >> hypotheses about *why* our ancestors shifted to obligate bipedalism.
> > > >> >> >> >> >> She discusses several hypotheses, and presents compelling arguments
> > > >> >> >> >> >> for her preferred one.
> > > >> >> >> >> >
> > > >> >> >> >> >I tend to think of it as none of the above.
> > > >> >> >> >> >
> > > >> >> >> >> >Simply because it is not that easy to stand upright.
> > > >> >> >> >> >
> > > >> >> >> >> >When an animal stands upright you need to solve a problem -
> > > >> >> >> >> >how do you keep from falling over forward and backward.
> > > >> >> >> >> >
> > > >> >> >> >> >This might seem simple but it is not because with a four
> > > >> >> >> >> >footed animal the center of gravity forward and backward
> > > >> >> >> >> >is between the front legs and the back legs, and often
> > > >> >> >> >> >that is a greater distance than between the left legs and
> > > >> >> >> >> >the right legs.
> > > >> >> >> >> Watch the cited videos. Erika points out the challenges of going from
> > > >> >> >> >> quadruped to biped, the differences between upright posture and
> > > >> >> >> >> bipedalism, and the plausibility of suspensory orthograde posture in
> > > >> >> >> >> trees as a precursor to bipedalism on the ground.
> > > >> >> >> >> >Some animals that sort of walk on twos have not solved the
> > > >> >> >> >> >problem - a kangaroo can hop but in general it can not
> > > >> >> >> >> >stably stand. Either way, in essence, the long hand enables
> > > >> >> >> >> >force to be supplied to the far front and far back to counter
> > > >> >> >> >> >falling forward or backward - the forefoot and big toe are
> > > >> >> >> >> >the front force appliers and the heel is the back force
> > > >> >> >> >> >applier. Then of course there are some animals that might
> > > >> >> >> >> >sort of walk on threes (I am thinking of the Jerboa) - but
> > > >> >> >> >> >humans have an extra problem because they have no tail to
> > > >> >> >> >> >possibly act as an extra walking limb, or at least a balance.
> > > >> >> >> >> That's why humans like big butts, I can not lie.
> > > >> >> >> >
> > > >> >> >> >Bigger butt bones, bigger brain bones, initially.
> > > >> >> >> >Homo erectus had unusually thick dense femurs and unusually thick dense occiputs (rear skull bone), which counterbalanced the pace over orthogonal bipedal treks on the ground, substituting for the more typical long dense tail of other bipeds (T rex, giant short faced kangaroo, giant ground sloth, running jesus lizard). This primitive mechanical gyroscope was replaced by genetic software improvements enabling reduced body bone weight (esp. femur & occiput), faster & longer bipedal locomotion, drastically reduced climbing/brachiating abilities.
> > > >> >> >> >
> > > >> >> >> >Casually walking while chewing gum, chatting and carrying a squirming child is something only humans could ever do.
> > > >> >> >> @378 cm^3, S. tchadensis' braincase is similar to that of extant
> > > >> >> >> chimpanzees and approximately a third the size of modern human brains.
> > > >> >> >S chadensis was imo not a habitual nor obligate terrestrial orthograde biped, nor a part-time knucklewalking terrestrial quadruped, its foramen magnum reflected a more primitive arboreal orthograde bipedalism associated with suspensory slow brachiation x arboreal bipedalism, as in European miocene - pliocene apes and similar to but distinct from faster extant gibbons.
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >> >Chimps & gorillas became more quadrupedal (partly pronograde terrestrial knucklewalking) while Homo became more bipedal (fully orthograde habitual obligate terrestrial striding), these produced changes of position and orientation of the foramen magnum.
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >> >https://carta.anthropogeny.org/moca/topics/foramen-magnum-placement#:~:text=The%20foramen%20magnum%20position%20has,case%20for%20Ardipithecus%20and%20Sahelanthropus.
> > > >> >> The authors of the paper Erika cited disagree with your opinion..
> > > >> >They might be right.
> > > >> If only there were some way to judge between contrasting opinions....
> > > >
> > > >Parsimony is good.
> > > >Please direct me to the author(s) who disagree with what I wrote earlier. I don't know where to start, which vid, which paper... I'll examine inconsistencies (their or mine).
> > > Once again, watch the cited video. Erika identifies the paper in the
> > > first few minutes of the first vdeo. But if you watch/listen to all
> > > of both, you might actually learn something.
> > Ok, I'd watched half of the 2nd video. I'll watch both tomorrow. I'll certainly learn something, I always do. For now, I stand behind every word I wrote earlier about Homo & Sahelanthropus.
> After a sneak peek, I see the paper, Postcranial ..., about the femur. I've skimmed it, no change in my thinking. But I'm flexible.
I am so far sorely disappointed. At around 8:23, Erika intelligently but ignorantly describes the position of the foramen magnum and its significance. To her, bipedalism is terrestrial bipedalism. That is the central flaw in the study of hominoid, hominin & Homo evolution, one which I have already specifically addressed earlier. She and the various authors seem to be unable to comprehend the significance of arboreal habitual bipedalism. The authors do not disagree with my opinion, they are not even aware of the concept that bipedalism led to ape quadrupedalism. Erika is bright, but as blind as they are on this. More tomorrow, hopefully more enlightening.

On Thu, 27 Oct 2022 21:53:46 -0700 (PDT), Daud Deden
<daud.deden@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 12:20:59 AM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
>> On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 12:13:33 AM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
>> > On Thursday, October 27, 2022 at 10:56:53 PM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
>> > > On Thu, 27 Oct 2022 16:44:19 -0700 (PDT), Daud Deden
>> > > <daud....@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > >On Thursday, October 27, 2022 at 5:53:29 AM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
>> > > >> On Thu, 27 Oct 2022 02:17:42 -0700 (PDT), Daud Deden
>> > > >> <daud....@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > > >>
>> > > >> >On Wednesday, October 26, 2022 at 7:56:43 PM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
>> > > >> >> On Wed, 26 Oct 2022 03:17:08 -0700 (PDT), Daud Deden
>> > > >> >> <daud....@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > > >> >>
>> > > >> >> >On Wednesday, October 26, 2022 at 4:10:49 AM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
>> > > >> >> >> On Tue, 25 Oct 2022 16:32:06 -0700 (PDT), Daud Deden
>> > > >> >> >> <daud....@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > > >> >> >>
>> > > >> >> >> >On Tuesday, October 25, 2022 at 6:59:05 PM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
>> > > >> >> >> >> On Tue, 25 Oct 2022 01:18:27 -0700, Trolidan7
>> > > >> >> >> >> <Trol...@eternal-september.org> wrote:
>> > > >> >> >> >>
>> > > >> >> >> >> >On 10/23/22 11:50 PM, jillery wrote:
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> Gutsick Gibbon is the Youtube handle of a biological anthropology PhD
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> student named Erika. Two of her recent videos discuss some of the
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> latest developments relating to the origins of human bipedalism:
>> > > >> >> >> >> >>
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbQAgPSHbZE>
>> > > >> >> >> >> >>
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> The above is a link to a 32-minute video where Erika discusses several
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> papers relating to Sahelanthropus tchadensis. This fossil is
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> remarkable in part because it's dated to about 7mya and was found in
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> central-african Chad, and also because it may be the oldest bipedal
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> hominin fossil found to date. However, there appears to be strong
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> disagreement whether the evidence supports bipedalism.
>> > > >> >> >> >> >>
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nwkfkp360ps>
>> > > >> >> >> >> >>
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> The above is a link to a 22-minute video where Erika discusses several
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> hypotheses about *why* our ancestors shifted to obligate bipedalism.
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> She discusses several hypotheses, and presents compelling arguments
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> for her preferred one.
>> > > >> >> >> >> >
>> > > >> >> >> >> >I tend to think of it as none of the above.
>> > > >> >> >> >> >
>> > > >> >> >> >> >Simply because it is not that easy to stand upright.
>> > > >> >> >> >> >
>> > > >> >> >> >> >When an animal stands upright you need to solve a problem -
>> > > >> >> >> >> >how do you keep from falling over forward and backward.
>> > > >> >> >> >> >
>> > > >> >> >> >> >This might seem simple but it is not because with a four
>> > > >> >> >> >> >footed animal the center of gravity forward and backward
>> > > >> >> >> >> >is between the front legs and the back legs, and often
>> > > >> >> >> >> >that is a greater distance than between the left legs and
>> > > >> >> >> >> >the right legs.
>> > > >> >> >> >> Watch the cited videos. Erika points out the challenges of going from
>> > > >> >> >> >> quadruped to biped, the differences between upright posture and
>> > > >> >> >> >> bipedalism, and the plausibility of suspensory orthograde posture in
>> > > >> >> >> >> trees as a precursor to bipedalism on the ground.
>> > > >> >> >> >> >Some animals that sort of walk on twos have not solved the
>> > > >> >> >> >> >problem - a kangaroo can hop but in general it can not
>> > > >> >> >> >> >stably stand. Either way, in essence, the long hand enables
>> > > >> >> >> >> >force to be supplied to the far front and far back to counter
>> > > >> >> >> >> >falling forward or backward - the forefoot and big toe are
>> > > >> >> >> >> >the front force appliers and the heel is the back force
>> > > >> >> >> >> >applier. Then of course there are some animals that might
>> > > >> >> >> >> >sort of walk on threes (I am thinking of the Jerboa) - but
>> > > >> >> >> >> >humans have an extra problem because they have no tail to
>> > > >> >> >> >> >possibly act as an extra walking limb, or at least a balance.
>> > > >> >> >> >> That's why humans like big butts, I can not lie.
>> > > >> >> >> >
>> > > >> >> >> >Bigger butt bones, bigger brain bones, initially.
>> > > >> >> >> >Homo erectus had unusually thick dense femurs and unusually thick dense occiputs (rear skull bone), which counterbalanced the pace over orthogonal bipedal treks on the ground, substituting for the more typical long dense tail of other bipeds (T rex, giant short faced kangaroo, giant ground sloth, running jesus lizard). This primitive mechanical gyroscope was replaced by genetic software improvements enabling reduced body bone weight (esp. femur & occiput), faster & longer bipedal locomotion, drastically reduced climbing/brachiating abilities.
>> > > >> >> >> >
>> > > >> >> >> >Casually walking while chewing gum, chatting and carrying a squirming child is something only humans could ever do.
>> > > >> >> >> @378 cm^3, S. tchadensis' braincase is similar to that of extant
>> > > >> >> >> chimpanzees and approximately a third the size of modern human brains.
>> > > >> >> >S chadensis was imo not a habitual nor obligate terrestrial orthograde biped, nor a part-time knucklewalking terrestrial quadruped, its foramen magnum reflected a more primitive arboreal orthograde bipedalism associated with suspensory slow brachiation x arboreal bipedalism, as in European miocene - pliocene apes and similar to but distinct from faster extant gibbons.
>> > > >> >> >
>> > > >> >> >Chimps & gorillas became more quadrupedal (partly pronograde terrestrial knucklewalking) while Homo became more bipedal (fully orthograde habitual obligate terrestrial striding), these produced changes of position and orientation of the foramen magnum.
>> > > >> >> >
>> > > >> >> >https://carta.anthropogeny.org/moca/topics/foramen-magnum-placement#:~:text=The%20foramen%20magnum%20position%20has,case%20for%20Ardipithecus%20and%20Sahelanthropus.
>> > > >> >> The authors of the paper Erika cited disagree with your opinion.
>> > > >> >They might be right.
>> > > >> If only there were some way to judge between contrasting opinions...
>> > > >
>> > > >Parsimony is good.
>> > > >Please direct me to the author(s) who disagree with what I wrote earlier. I don't know where to start, which vid, which paper... I'll examine inconsistencies (their or mine).
>> > > Once again, watch the cited video. Erika identifies the paper in the
>> > > first few minutes of the first vdeo. But if you watch/listen to all
>> > > of both, you might actually learn something.
>> > Ok, I'd watched half of the 2nd video. I'll watch both tomorrow. I'll certainly learn something, I always do. For now, I stand behind every word I wrote earlier about Homo & Sahelanthropus.
>> After a sneak peek, I see the paper, Postcranial ..., about the femur. I've skimmed it, no change in my thinking. But I'm flexible.
>I am so far sorely disappointed. At around 8:23, Erika intelligently but ignorantly describes the position of the foramen magnum and its significance. To her, bipedalism is terrestrial bipedalism. That is the central flaw in the study of hominoid, hominin & Homo evolution, one which I have already specifically addressed earlier. She and the various authors seem to be unable to comprehend the significance of arboreal habitual bipedalism. The authors do not disagree with my opinion, they are not even aware of the concept that bipedalism led to ape quadrupedalism. Erika is bright, but as blind as they are on this. More tomorrow, hopefully more enlightening.

On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 4:45:58 AM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thu, 27 Oct 2022 21:53:46 -0700 (PDT), Daud Deden
> <daud....@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 12:20:59 AM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> >> On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 12:13:33 AM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> >> > On Thursday, October 27, 2022 at 10:56:53 PM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> > > On Thu, 27 Oct 2022 16:44:19 -0700 (PDT), Daud Deden
> >> > > <daud....@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > >On Thursday, October 27, 2022 at 5:53:29 AM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> > > >> On Thu, 27 Oct 2022 02:17:42 -0700 (PDT), Daud Deden
> >> > > >> <daud....@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> >On Wednesday, October 26, 2022 at 7:56:43 PM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> > > >> >> On Wed, 26 Oct 2022 03:17:08 -0700 (PDT), Daud Deden
> >> > > >> >> <daud....@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > > >> >>
> >> > > >> >> >On Wednesday, October 26, 2022 at 4:10:49 AM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> > > >> >> >> On Tue, 25 Oct 2022 16:32:06 -0700 (PDT), Daud Deden
> >> > > >> >> >> <daud....@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > > >> >> >>
> >> > > >> >> >> >On Tuesday, October 25, 2022 at 6:59:05 PM UTC-4, 69jp....@gmail.com wrote:
> >> > > >> >> >> >> On Tue, 25 Oct 2022 01:18:27 -0700, Trolidan7
> >> > > >> >> >> >> <Trol...@eternal-september.org> wrote:
> >> > > >> >> >> >>
> >> > > >> >> >> >> >On 10/23/22 11:50 PM, jillery wrote:
> >> > > >> >> >> >> >> Gutsick Gibbon is the Youtube handle of a biological anthropology PhD
> >> > > >> >> >> >> >> student named Erika. Two of her recent videos discuss some of the
> >> > > >> >> >> >> >> latest developments relating to the origins of human bipedalism:
> >> > > >> >> >> >> >>
> >> > > >> >> >> >> >> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbQAgPSHbZE>
> >> > > >> >> >> >> >>
> >> > > >> >> >> >> >> The above is a link to a 32-minute video where Erika discusses several
> >> > > >> >> >> >> >> papers relating to Sahelanthropus tchadensis. This fossil is
> >> > > >> >> >> >> >> remarkable in part because it's dated to about 7mya and was found in
> >> > > >> >> >> >> >> central-african Chad, and also because it may be the oldest bipedal
> >> > > >> >> >> >> >> hominin fossil found to date. However, there appears to be strong
> >> > > >> >> >> >> >> disagreement whether the evidence supports bipedalism.
> >> > > >> >> >> >> >>
> >> > > >> >> >> >> >> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nwkfkp360ps>
> >> > > >> >> >> >> >>
> >> > > >> >> >> >> >> The above is a link to a 22-minute video where Erika discusses several
> >> > > >> >> >> >> >> hypotheses about *why* our ancestors shifted to obligate bipedalism.
> >> > > >> >> >> >> >> She discusses several hypotheses, and presents compelling arguments
> >> > > >> >> >> >> >> for her preferred one.
> >> > > >> >> >> >> >
> >> > > >> >> >> >> >I tend to think of it as none of the above.
> >> > > >> >> >> >> >
> >> > > >> >> >> >> >Simply because it is not that easy to stand upright.
> >> > > >> >> >> >> >
> >> > > >> >> >> >> >When an animal stands upright you need to solve a problem -
> >> > > >> >> >> >> >how do you keep from falling over forward and backward.
> >> > > >> >> >> >> >
> >> > > >> >> >> >> >This might seem simple but it is not because with a four
> >> > > >> >> >> >> >footed animal the center of gravity forward and backward
> >> > > >> >> >> >> >is between the front legs and the back legs, and often
> >> > > >> >> >> >> >that is a greater distance than between the left legs and
> >> > > >> >> >> >> >the right legs.
> >> > > >> >> >> >> Watch the cited videos. Erika points out the challenges of going from
> >> > > >> >> >> >> quadruped to biped, the differences between upright posture and
> >> > > >> >> >> >> bipedalism, and the plausibility of suspensory orthograde posture in
> >> > > >> >> >> >> trees as a precursor to bipedalism on the ground.
> >> > > >> >> >> >> >Some animals that sort of walk on twos have not solved the
> >> > > >> >> >> >> >problem - a kangaroo can hop but in general it can not
> >> > > >> >> >> >> >stably stand. Either way, in essence, the long hand enables
> >> > > >> >> >> >> >force to be supplied to the far front and far back to counter
> >> > > >> >> >> >> >falling forward or backward - the forefoot and big toe are
> >> > > >> >> >> >> >the front force appliers and the heel is the back force
> >> > > >> >> >> >> >applier. Then of course there are some animals that might
> >> > > >> >> >> >> >sort of walk on threes (I am thinking of the Jerboa) - but
> >> > > >> >> >> >> >humans have an extra problem because they have no tail to
> >> > > >> >> >> >> >possibly act as an extra walking limb, or at least a balance.
> >> > > >> >> >> >> That's why humans like big butts, I can not lie.
> >> > > >> >> >> >
> >> > > >> >> >> >Bigger butt bones, bigger brain bones, initially.
> >> > > >> >> >> >Homo erectus had unusually thick dense femurs and unusually thick dense occiputs (rear skull bone), which counterbalanced the pace over orthogonal bipedal treks on the ground, substituting for the more typical long dense tail of other bipeds (T rex, giant short faced kangaroo, giant ground sloth, running jesus lizard). This primitive mechanical gyroscope was replaced by genetic software improvements enabling reduced body bone weight (esp. femur & occiput), faster & longer bipedal locomotion, drastically reduced climbing/brachiating abilities.
> >> > > >> >> >> >
> >> > > >> >> >> >Casually walking while chewing gum, chatting and carrying a squirming child is something only humans could ever do.
> >> > > >> >> >> @378 cm^3, S. tchadensis' braincase is similar to that of extant
> >> > > >> >> >> chimpanzees and approximately a third the size of modern human brains.
> >> > > >> >> >S chadensis was imo not a habitual nor obligate terrestrial orthograde biped, nor a part-time knucklewalking terrestrial quadruped, its foramen magnum reflected a more primitive arboreal orthograde bipedalism associated with suspensory slow brachiation x arboreal bipedalism, as in European miocene - pliocene apes and similar to but distinct from faster extant gibbons.
> >> > > >> >> >
> >> > > >> >> >Chimps & gorillas became more quadrupedal (partly pronograde terrestrial knucklewalking) while Homo became more bipedal (fully orthograde habitual obligate terrestrial striding), these produced changes of position and orientation of the foramen magnum.
> >> > > >> >> >
> >> > > >> >> >https://carta.anthropogeny.org/moca/topics/foramen-magnum-placement#:~:text=The%20foramen%20magnum%20position%20has,case%20for%20Ardipithecus%20and%20Sahelanthropus.
> >> > > >> >> The authors of the paper Erika cited disagree with your opinion.
> >> > > >> >They might be right.
> >> > > >> If only there were some way to judge between contrasting opinions...
> >> > > >
> >> > > >Parsimony is good.
> >> > > >Please direct me to the author(s) who disagree with what I wrote earlier. I don't know where to start, which vid, which paper... I'll examine inconsistencies (their or mine).
> >> > > Once again, watch the cited video. Erika identifies the paper in the
> >> > > first few minutes of the first vdeo. But if you watch/listen to all
> >> > > of both, you might actually learn something.
> >> > Ok, I'd watched half of the 2nd video. I'll watch both tomorrow. I'll certainly learn something, I always do. For now, I stand behind every word I wrote earlier about Homo & Sahelanthropus.
> >> After a sneak peek, I see the paper, Postcranial ..., about the femur. I've skimmed it, no change in my thinking. But I'm flexible.
> >I am so far sorely disappointed. At around 8:23, Erika intelligently but ignorantly describes the position of the foramen magnum and its significance. To her, bipedalism is terrestrial bipedalism. That is the central flaw in the study of hominoid, hominin & Homo evolution, one which I have already specifically addressed earlier. She and the various authors seem to be unable to comprehend the significance of arboreal habitual bipedalism. The authors do not disagree with my opinion, they are not even aware of the concept that bipedalism led to ape quadrupedalism. Erika is bright, but as blind as they are on this. More tomorrow, hopefully more enlightening.
> I acknowledge in the first video Erika mostly uses "bipedalism"
> without distinction between arboreal and terrestrial. However, her
> argument explicitly distinguishes between hominin and panin, and also
> explicitly mentions terrestrial bipedality once. My understanding is
> Erika uses hominin v panin to distinguish terrestrial v arboreal
> bipedalism. I could be wrong.
>
> Also, in the second video, Erika explicitly identifies arboreal
> bipedalism as an enabling adaptation to terrestrial bipedalism. So to
> say she doesn't comprehend its significance is an exaggeration at
> least.
>
> Erika is careful for copyright purposes to limit how much of the cited
> paper she includes in her video, so I can't say if the paper's authors
> make an explicit distinction between arboreal and terrestrial
> bipedalism. Someone who has access to the full paper will have to
> weigh in on that point.
>
> However, Erika does mention that the paper discusses anatomical
> features of the femur (proto linear aspira, gluteal tuberosity, calcar
> femoral {sp?}), and cortical bone of the ulnae. My understanding is
> these features are not present in arboreal bipedal species, and
> instead indicate the more robust musculature of terrestrial
> bipedalism.
>
> Finally, Erika's expressed reservation with the paper is if the
> evidence supports habitual bipedalism. She argues that would inform
> whether the common ancestor between hominin and panin was more
> human-like or more chimpanzee-like.

On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 5:45:10 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 4:45:58 AM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Thu, 27 Oct 2022 21:53:46 -0700 (PDT), Daud Deden
> > <daud....@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > >On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 12:20:59 AM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > >> On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 12:13:33 AM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > >> > On Thursday, October 27, 2022 at 10:56:53 PM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >> > > On Thu, 27 Oct 2022 16:44:19 -0700 (PDT), Daud Deden
> > >> > > <daud....@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> > >
> > >> > > >On Thursday, October 27, 2022 at 5:53:29 AM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >> > > >> On Thu, 27 Oct 2022 02:17:42 -0700 (PDT), Daud Deden
> > >> > > >> <daud....@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> > > >>
> > >> > > >> >On Wednesday, October 26, 2022 at 7:56:43 PM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >> > > >> >> On Wed, 26 Oct 2022 03:17:08 -0700 (PDT), Daud Deden
> > >> > > >> >> <daud....@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> > > >> >>
> > >> > > >> >> >On Wednesday, October 26, 2022 at 4:10:49 AM UTC-4, 69jp....@gmail.com wrote:
> > >> > > >> >> >> On Tue, 25 Oct 2022 16:32:06 -0700 (PDT), Daud Deden
> > >> > > >> >> >> <daud....@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> > > >> >> >>
> > >> > > >> >> >> >On Tuesday, October 25, 2022 at 6:59:05 PM UTC-4, 69jp....@gmail.com wrote:
> > >> > > >> >> >> >> On Tue, 25 Oct 2022 01:18:27 -0700, Trolidan7
> > >> > > >> >> >> >> <Trol...@eternal-september.org> wrote:
> > >> > > >> >> >> >>
> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >On 10/23/22 11:50 PM, jillery wrote:
> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >> Gutsick Gibbon is the Youtube handle of a biological anthropology PhD
> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >> student named Erika. Two of her recent videos discuss some of the
> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >> latest developments relating to the origins of human bipedalism:
> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >>
> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbQAgPSHbZE>
> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >>
> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >> The above is a link to a 32-minute video where Erika discusses several
> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >> papers relating to Sahelanthropus tchadensis. This fossil is
> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >> remarkable in part because it's dated to about 7mya and was found in
> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >> central-african Chad, and also because it may be the oldest bipedal
> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >> hominin fossil found to date. However, there appears to be strong
> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >> disagreement whether the evidence supports bipedalism.
> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >>
> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nwkfkp360ps>
> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >>
> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >> The above is a link to a 22-minute video where Erika discusses several
> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >> hypotheses about *why* our ancestors shifted to obligate bipedalism.
> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >> She discusses several hypotheses, and presents compelling arguments
> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >> for her preferred one.
> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >
> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >I tend to think of it as none of the above.
> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >
> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >Simply because it is not that easy to stand upright..
> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >
> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >When an animal stands upright you need to solve a problem -
> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >how do you keep from falling over forward and backward.
> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >
> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >This might seem simple but it is not because with a four
> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >footed animal the center of gravity forward and backward
> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >is between the front legs and the back legs, and often
> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >that is a greater distance than between the left legs and
> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >the right legs.
> > >> > > >> >> >> >> Watch the cited videos. Erika points out the challenges of going from
> > >> > > >> >> >> >> quadruped to biped, the differences between upright posture and
> > >> > > >> >> >> >> bipedalism, and the plausibility of suspensory orthograde posture in
> > >> > > >> >> >> >> trees as a precursor to bipedalism on the ground.
> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >Some animals that sort of walk on twos have not solved the
> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >problem - a kangaroo can hop but in general it can not
> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >stably stand. Either way, in essence, the long hand enables
> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >force to be supplied to the far front and far back to counter
> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >falling forward or backward - the forefoot and big toe are
> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >the front force appliers and the heel is the back force
> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >applier. Then of course there are some animals that might
> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >sort of walk on threes (I am thinking of the Jerboa) - but
> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >humans have an extra problem because they have no tail to
> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >possibly act as an extra walking limb, or at least a balance.
> > >> > > >> >> >> >> That's why humans like big butts, I can not lie.
> > >> > > >> >> >> >
> > >> > > >> >> >> >Bigger butt bones, bigger brain bones, initially.
> > >> > > >> >> >> >Homo erectus had unusually thick dense femurs and unusually thick dense occiputs (rear skull bone), which counterbalanced the pace over orthogonal bipedal treks on the ground, substituting for the more typical long dense tail of other bipeds (T rex, giant short faced kangaroo, giant ground sloth, running jesus lizard). This primitive mechanical gyroscope was replaced by genetic software improvements enabling reduced body bone weight (esp. femur & occiput), faster & longer bipedal locomotion, drastically reduced climbing/brachiating abilities.
> > >> > > >> >> >> >
> > >> > > >> >> >> >Casually walking while chewing gum, chatting and carrying a squirming child is something only humans could ever do.
> > >> > > >> >> >> @378 cm^3, S. tchadensis' braincase is similar to that of extant
> > >> > > >> >> >> chimpanzees and approximately a third the size of modern human brains.
> > >> > > >> >> >S chadensis was imo not a habitual nor obligate terrestrial orthograde biped, nor a part-time knucklewalking terrestrial quadruped, its foramen magnum reflected a more primitive arboreal orthograde bipedalism associated with suspensory slow brachiation x arboreal bipedalism, as in European miocene - pliocene apes and similar to but distinct from faster extant gibbons.
> > >> > > >> >> >
> > >> > > >> >> >Chimps & gorillas became more quadrupedal (partly pronograde terrestrial knucklewalking) while Homo became more bipedal (fully orthograde habitual obligate terrestrial striding), these produced changes of position and orientation of the foramen magnum.
> > >> > > >> >> >
> > >> > > >> >> >https://carta.anthropogeny.org/moca/topics/foramen-magnum-placement#:~:text=The%20foramen%20magnum%20position%20has,case%20for%20Ardipithecus%20and%20Sahelanthropus.
> > >> > > >> >> The authors of the paper Erika cited disagree with your opinion.
> > >> > > >> >They might be right.
> > >> > > >> If only there were some way to judge between contrasting opinions...
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > >Parsimony is good.
> > >> > > >Please direct me to the author(s) who disagree with what I wrote earlier. I don't know where to start, which vid, which paper... I'll examine inconsistencies (their or mine).
> > >> > > Once again, watch the cited video. Erika identifies the paper in the
> > >> > > first few minutes of the first vdeo. But if you watch/listen to all
> > >> > > of both, you might actually learn something.
> > >> > Ok, I'd watched half of the 2nd video. I'll watch both tomorrow. I'll certainly learn something, I always do. For now, I stand behind every word I wrote earlier about Homo & Sahelanthropus.
> > >> After a sneak peek, I see the paper, Postcranial ..., about the femur. I've skimmed it, no change in my thinking. But I'm flexible.
> > >I am so far sorely disappointed. At around 8:23, Erika intelligently but ignorantly describes the position of the foramen magnum and its significance. To her, bipedalism is terrestrial bipedalism. That is the central flaw in the study of hominoid, hominin & Homo evolution, one which I have already specifically addressed earlier. She and the various authors seem to be unable to comprehend the significance of arboreal habitual bipedalism. The authors do not disagree with my opinion, they are not even aware of the concept that bipedalism led to ape quadrupedalism. Erika is bright, but as blind as they are on this. More tomorrow, hopefully more enlightening.
> > I acknowledge in the first video Erika mostly uses "bipedalism"
> > without distinction between arboreal and terrestrial. However, her
> > argument explicitly distinguishes between hominin and panin, and also
> > explicitly mentions terrestrial bipedality once. My understanding is
> > Erika uses hominin v panin to distinguish terrestrial v arboreal
> > bipedalism. I could be wrong.
> >
> > Also, in the second video, Erika explicitly identifies arboreal
> > bipedalism as an enabling adaptation to terrestrial bipedalism. So to
> > say she doesn't comprehend its significance is an exaggeration at
> > least.
> >
> > Erika is careful for copyright purposes to limit how much of the cited
> > paper she includes in her video, so I can't say if the paper's authors
> > make an explicit distinction between arboreal and terrestrial
> > bipedalism. Someone who has access to the full paper will have to
> > weigh in on that point.
> >
> > However, Erika does mention that the paper discusses anatomical
> > features of the femur (proto linear aspira, gluteal tuberosity, calcar
> > femoral {sp?}), and cortical bone of the ulnae. My understanding is
> > these features are not present in arboreal bipedal species, and
> > instead indicate the more robust musculature of terrestrial
> > bipedalism.
> >
> > Finally, Erika's expressed reservation with the paper is if the
> > evidence supports habitual bipedalism. She argues that would inform
> > whether the common ancestor between hominin and panin was more
> > human-like or more chimpanzee-like.
> My written response was lost. Damn. 15 sentences evaporated.
> The data graphs have nothing about hylobatids or macaques, so are worthless.
> Near the end of video one, Erika talks about 'bipedal or arboreal', revealing that she still doesn't get it.
> J: "these features are not present in arboreal bipedal species" Extant knucklewalking apes which sleep in bowl nests? Humans are gracile terrestrial bipeds.
> Not even mentioned: gibbons and humans share long achilles tendon and long lower back, opposite of extant great apes.
There's also this: https://bmcgenomics.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12864-022-08828-7

On Fri, 28 Oct 2022 21:26:43 -0700 (PDT), Daud Deden
<daud.deden@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 5:45:10 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
>> On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 4:45:58 AM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
>> > On Thu, 27 Oct 2022 21:53:46 -0700 (PDT), Daud Deden
>> > <daud....@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > >On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 12:20:59 AM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
>> > >> On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 12:13:33 AM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
>> > >> > On Thursday, October 27, 2022 at 10:56:53 PM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
>> > >> > > On Thu, 27 Oct 2022 16:44:19 -0700 (PDT), Daud Deden
>> > >> > > <daud....@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > > >On Thursday, October 27, 2022 at 5:53:29 AM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
>> > >> > > >> On Thu, 27 Oct 2022 02:17:42 -0700 (PDT), Daud Deden
>> > >> > > >> <daud....@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > >> > > >>
>> > >> > > >> >On Wednesday, October 26, 2022 at 7:56:43 PM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
>> > >> > > >> >> On Wed, 26 Oct 2022 03:17:08 -0700 (PDT), Daud Deden
>> > >> > > >> >> <daud....@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > >> > > >> >>
>> > >> > > >> >> >On Wednesday, October 26, 2022 at 4:10:49 AM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
>> > >> > > >> >> >> On Tue, 25 Oct 2022 16:32:06 -0700 (PDT), Daud Deden
>> > >> > > >> >> >> <daud....@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > >> > > >> >> >>
>> > >> > > >> >> >> >On Tuesday, October 25, 2022 at 6:59:05 PM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
>> > >> > > >> >> >> >> On Tue, 25 Oct 2022 01:18:27 -0700, Trolidan7
>> > >> > > >> >> >> >> <Trol...@eternal-september.org> wrote:
>> > >> > > >> >> >> >>
>> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >On 10/23/22 11:50 PM, jillery wrote:
>> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >> Gutsick Gibbon is the Youtube handle of a biological anthropology PhD
>> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >> student named Erika. Two of her recent videos discuss some of the
>> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >> latest developments relating to the origins of human bipedalism:
>> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >>
>> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbQAgPSHbZE>
>> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >>
>> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >> The above is a link to a 32-minute video where Erika discusses several
>> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >> papers relating to Sahelanthropus tchadensis. This fossil is
>> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >> remarkable in part because it's dated to about 7mya and was found in
>> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >> central-african Chad, and also because it may be the oldest bipedal
>> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >> hominin fossil found to date. However, there appears to be strong
>> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >> disagreement whether the evidence supports bipedalism.
>> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >>
>> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nwkfkp360ps>
>> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >>
>> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >> The above is a link to a 22-minute video where Erika discusses several
>> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >> hypotheses about *why* our ancestors shifted to obligate bipedalism.
>> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >> She discusses several hypotheses, and presents compelling arguments
>> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >> for her preferred one.
>> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >
>> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >I tend to think of it as none of the above.
>> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >
>> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >Simply because it is not that easy to stand upright.
>> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >
>> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >When an animal stands upright you need to solve a problem -
>> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >how do you keep from falling over forward and backward.
>> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >
>> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >This might seem simple but it is not because with a four
>> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >footed animal the center of gravity forward and backward
>> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >is between the front legs and the back legs, and often
>> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >that is a greater distance than between the left legs and
>> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >the right legs.
>> > >> > > >> >> >> >> Watch the cited videos. Erika points out the challenges of going from
>> > >> > > >> >> >> >> quadruped to biped, the differences between upright posture and
>> > >> > > >> >> >> >> bipedalism, and the plausibility of suspensory orthograde posture in
>> > >> > > >> >> >> >> trees as a precursor to bipedalism on the ground.
>> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >Some animals that sort of walk on twos have not solved the
>> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >problem - a kangaroo can hop but in general it can not
>> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >stably stand. Either way, in essence, the long hand enables
>> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >force to be supplied to the far front and far back to counter
>> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >falling forward or backward - the forefoot and big toe are
>> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >the front force appliers and the heel is the back force
>> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >applier. Then of course there are some animals that might
>> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >sort of walk on threes (I am thinking of the Jerboa) - but
>> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >humans have an extra problem because they have no tail to
>> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >possibly act as an extra walking limb, or at least a balance.
>> > >> > > >> >> >> >> That's why humans like big butts, I can not lie.
>> > >> > > >> >> >> >
>> > >> > > >> >> >> >Bigger butt bones, bigger brain bones, initially.
>> > >> > > >> >> >> >Homo erectus had unusually thick dense femurs and unusually thick dense occiputs (rear skull bone), which counterbalanced the pace over orthogonal bipedal treks on the ground, substituting for the more typical long dense tail of other bipeds (T rex, giant short faced kangaroo, giant ground sloth, running jesus lizard). This primitive mechanical gyroscope was replaced by genetic software improvements enabling reduced body bone weight (esp. femur & occiput), faster & longer bipedal locomotion, drastically reduced climbing/brachiating abilities.
>> > >> > > >> >> >> >
>> > >> > > >> >> >> >Casually walking while chewing gum, chatting and carrying a squirming child is something only humans could ever do.
>> > >> > > >> >> >> @378 cm^3, S. tchadensis' braincase is similar to that of extant
>> > >> > > >> >> >> chimpanzees and approximately a third the size of modern human brains.
>> > >> > > >> >> >S chadensis was imo not a habitual nor obligate terrestrial orthograde biped, nor a part-time knucklewalking terrestrial quadruped, its foramen magnum reflected a more primitive arboreal orthograde bipedalism associated with suspensory slow brachiation x arboreal bipedalism, as in European miocene - pliocene apes and similar to but distinct from faster extant gibbons.
>> > >> > > >> >> >
>> > >> > > >> >> >Chimps & gorillas became more quadrupedal (partly pronograde terrestrial knucklewalking) while Homo became more bipedal (fully orthograde habitual obligate terrestrial striding), these produced changes of position and orientation of the foramen magnum.
>> > >> > > >> >> >
>> > >> > > >> >> >https://carta.anthropogeny.org/moca/topics/foramen-magnum-placement#:~:text=The%20foramen%20magnum%20position%20has,case%20for%20Ardipithecus%20and%20Sahelanthropus.
>> > >> > > >> >> The authors of the paper Erika cited disagree with your opinion.
>> > >> > > >> >They might be right.
>> > >> > > >> If only there were some way to judge between contrasting opinions...
>> > >> > > >
>> > >> > > >Parsimony is good.
>> > >> > > >Please direct me to the author(s) who disagree with what I wrote earlier. I don't know where to start, which vid, which paper... I'll examine inconsistencies (their or mine).
>> > >> > > Once again, watch the cited video. Erika identifies the paper in the
>> > >> > > first few minutes of the first vdeo. But if you watch/listen to all
>> > >> > > of both, you might actually learn something.
>> > >> > Ok, I'd watched half of the 2nd video. I'll watch both tomorrow. I'll certainly learn something, I always do. For now, I stand behind every word I wrote earlier about Homo & Sahelanthropus.
>> > >> After a sneak peek, I see the paper, Postcranial ..., about the femur. I've skimmed it, no change in my thinking. But I'm flexible.
>> > >I am so far sorely disappointed. At around 8:23, Erika intelligently but ignorantly describes the position of the foramen magnum and its significance. To her, bipedalism is terrestrial bipedalism. That is the central flaw in the study of hominoid, hominin & Homo evolution, one which I have already specifically addressed earlier. She and the various authors seem to be unable to comprehend the significance of arboreal habitual bipedalism. The authors do not disagree with my opinion, they are not even aware of the concept that bipedalism led to ape quadrupedalism. Erika is bright, but as blind as they are on this. More tomorrow, hopefully more enlightening.
>> > I acknowledge in the first video Erika mostly uses "bipedalism"
>> > without distinction between arboreal and terrestrial. However, her
>> > argument explicitly distinguishes between hominin and panin, and also
>> > explicitly mentions terrestrial bipedality once. My understanding is
>> > Erika uses hominin v panin to distinguish terrestrial v arboreal
>> > bipedalism. I could be wrong.
>> >
>> > Also, in the second video, Erika explicitly identifies arboreal
>> > bipedalism as an enabling adaptation to terrestrial bipedalism. So to
>> > say she doesn't comprehend its significance is an exaggeration at
>> > least.
>> >
>> > Erika is careful for copyright purposes to limit how much of the cited
>> > paper she includes in her video, so I can't say if the paper's authors
>> > make an explicit distinction between arboreal and terrestrial
>> > bipedalism. Someone who has access to the full paper will have to
>> > weigh in on that point.
>> >
>> > However, Erika does mention that the paper discusses anatomical
>> > features of the femur (proto linear aspira, gluteal tuberosity, calcar
>> > femoral {sp?}), and cortical bone of the ulnae. My understanding is
>> > these features are not present in arboreal bipedal species, and
>> > instead indicate the more robust musculature of terrestrial
>> > bipedalism.
>> >
>> > Finally, Erika's expressed reservation with the paper is if the
>> > evidence supports habitual bipedalism. She argues that would inform
>> > whether the common ancestor between hominin and panin was more
>> > human-like or more chimpanzee-like.
>> My written response was lost. Damn. 15 sentences evaporated.

On Saturday, October 29, 2022 at 2:11:43 AM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Fri, 28 Oct 2022 21:26:43 -0700 (PDT), Daud Deden
> <daud....@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 5:45:10 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> >> On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 4:45:58 AM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> > On Thu, 27 Oct 2022 21:53:46 -0700 (PDT), Daud Deden
> >> > <daud....@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > >On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 12:20:59 AM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> >> > >> On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 12:13:33 AM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> >> > >> > On Thursday, October 27, 2022 at 10:56:53 PM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> > >> > > On Thu, 27 Oct 2022 16:44:19 -0700 (PDT), Daud Deden
> >> > >> > > <daud....@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > >> > >
> >> > >> > > >On Thursday, October 27, 2022 at 5:53:29 AM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> > >> > > >> On Thu, 27 Oct 2022 02:17:42 -0700 (PDT), Daud Deden
> >> > >> > > >> <daud....@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > >> > > >>
> >> > >> > > >> >On Wednesday, October 26, 2022 at 7:56:43 PM UTC-4, 69jp....@gmail.com wrote:
> >> > >> > > >> >> On Wed, 26 Oct 2022 03:17:08 -0700 (PDT), Daud Deden
> >> > >> > > >> >> <daud....@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > >> > > >> >>
> >> > >> > > >> >> >On Wednesday, October 26, 2022 at 4:10:49 AM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> > >> > > >> >> >> On Tue, 25 Oct 2022 16:32:06 -0700 (PDT), Daud Deden
> >> > >> > > >> >> >> <daud....@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > >> > > >> >> >>
> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >On Tuesday, October 25, 2022 at 6:59:05 PM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> On Tue, 25 Oct 2022 01:18:27 -0700, Trolidan7
> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> <Trol...@eternal-september.org> wrote:
> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >>
> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >On 10/23/22 11:50 PM, jillery wrote:
> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >> Gutsick Gibbon is the Youtube handle of a biological anthropology PhD
> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >> student named Erika. Two of her recent videos discuss some of the
> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >> latest developments relating to the origins of human bipedalism:
> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >>
> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbQAgPSHbZE>
> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >>
> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >> The above is a link to a 32-minute video where Erika discusses several
> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >> papers relating to Sahelanthropus tchadensis. This fossil is
> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >> remarkable in part because it's dated to about 7mya and was found in
> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >> central-african Chad, and also because it may be the oldest bipedal
> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >> hominin fossil found to date. However, there appears to be strong
> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >> disagreement whether the evidence supports bipedalism.
> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >>
> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nwkfkp360ps>
> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >>
> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >> The above is a link to a 22-minute video where Erika discusses several
> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >> hypotheses about *why* our ancestors shifted to obligate bipedalism.
> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >> She discusses several hypotheses, and presents compelling arguments
> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >> for her preferred one.
> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >
> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >I tend to think of it as none of the above.
> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >
> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >Simply because it is not that easy to stand upright.
> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >
> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >When an animal stands upright you need to solve a problem -
> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >how do you keep from falling over forward and backward.
> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >
> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >This might seem simple but it is not because with a four
> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >footed animal the center of gravity forward and backward
> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >is between the front legs and the back legs, and often
> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >that is a greater distance than between the left legs and
> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >the right legs.
> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> Watch the cited videos. Erika points out the challenges of going from
> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> quadruped to biped, the differences between upright posture and
> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> bipedalism, and the plausibility of suspensory orthograde posture in
> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> trees as a precursor to bipedalism on the ground.
> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >Some animals that sort of walk on twos have not solved the
> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >problem - a kangaroo can hop but in general it can not
> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >stably stand. Either way, in essence, the long hand enables
> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >force to be supplied to the far front and far back to counter
> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >falling forward or backward - the forefoot and big toe are
> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >the front force appliers and the heel is the back force
> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >applier. Then of course there are some animals that might
> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >sort of walk on threes (I am thinking of the Jerboa) - but
> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >humans have an extra problem because they have no tail to
> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >possibly act as an extra walking limb, or at least a balance.
> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> That's why humans like big butts, I can not lie.
> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >
> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >Bigger butt bones, bigger brain bones, initially.
> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >Homo erectus had unusually thick dense femurs and unusually thick dense occiputs (rear skull bone), which counterbalanced the pace over orthogonal bipedal treks on the ground, substituting for the more typical long dense tail of other bipeds (T rex, giant short faced kangaroo, giant ground sloth, running jesus lizard). This primitive mechanical gyroscope was replaced by genetic software improvements enabling reduced body bone weight (esp. femur & occiput), faster & longer bipedal locomotion, drastically reduced climbing/brachiating abilities.
> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >
> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >Casually walking while chewing gum, chatting and carrying a squirming child is something only humans could ever do.
> >> > >> > > >> >> >> @378 cm^3, S. tchadensis' braincase is similar to that of extant
> >> > >> > > >> >> >> chimpanzees and approximately a third the size of modern human brains.
> >> > >> > > >> >> >S chadensis was imo not a habitual nor obligate terrestrial orthograde biped, nor a part-time knucklewalking terrestrial quadruped, its foramen magnum reflected a more primitive arboreal orthograde bipedalism associated with suspensory slow brachiation x arboreal bipedalism, as in European miocene - pliocene apes and similar to but distinct from faster extant gibbons.
> >> > >> > > >> >> >
> >> > >> > > >> >> >Chimps & gorillas became more quadrupedal (partly pronograde terrestrial knucklewalking) while Homo became more bipedal (fully orthograde habitual obligate terrestrial striding), these produced changes of position and orientation of the foramen magnum.
> >> > >> > > >> >> >
> >> > >> > > >> >> >https://carta.anthropogeny.org/moca/topics/foramen-magnum-placement#:~:text=The%20foramen%20magnum%20position%20has,case%20for%20Ardipithecus%20and%20Sahelanthropus.
> >> > >> > > >> >> The authors of the paper Erika cited disagree with your opinion.
> >> > >> > > >> >They might be right.
> >> > >> > > >> If only there were some way to judge between contrasting opinions...
> >> > >> > > >
> >> > >> > > >Parsimony is good.
> >> > >> > > >Please direct me to the author(s) who disagree with what I wrote earlier. I don't know where to start, which vid, which paper... I'll examine inconsistencies (their or mine).
> >> > >> > > Once again, watch the cited video. Erika identifies the paper in the
> >> > >> > > first few minutes of the first vdeo. But if you watch/listen to all
> >> > >> > > of both, you might actually learn something.
> >> > >> > Ok, I'd watched half of the 2nd video. I'll watch both tomorrow.. I'll certainly learn something, I always do. For now, I stand behind every word I wrote earlier about Homo & Sahelanthropus.
> >> > >> After a sneak peek, I see the paper, Postcranial ..., about the femur. I've skimmed it, no change in my thinking. But I'm flexible.
> >> > >I am so far sorely disappointed. At around 8:23, Erika intelligently but ignorantly describes the position of the foramen magnum and its significance. To her, bipedalism is terrestrial bipedalism. That is the central flaw in the study of hominoid, hominin & Homo evolution, one which I have already specifically addressed earlier. She and the various authors seem to be unable to comprehend the significance of arboreal habitual bipedalism. The authors do not disagree with my opinion, they are not even aware of the concept that bipedalism led to ape quadrupedalism. Erika is bright, but as blind as they are on this. More tomorrow, hopefully more enlightening.
> >> > I acknowledge in the first video Erika mostly uses "bipedalism"
> >> > without distinction between arboreal and terrestrial. However, her
> >> > argument explicitly distinguishes between hominin and panin, and also
> >> > explicitly mentions terrestrial bipedality once. My understanding is
> >> > Erika uses hominin v panin to distinguish terrestrial v arboreal
> >> > bipedalism. I could be wrong.
> >> >
> >> > Also, in the second video, Erika explicitly identifies arboreal
> >> > bipedalism as an enabling adaptation to terrestrial bipedalism. So to
> >> > say she doesn't comprehend its significance is an exaggeration at
> >> > least.
> >> >
> >> > Erika is careful for copyright purposes to limit how much of the cited
> >> > paper she includes in her video, so I can't say if the paper's authors
> >> > make an explicit distinction between arboreal and terrestrial
> >> > bipedalism. Someone who has access to the full paper will have to
> >> > weigh in on that point.
> >> >
> >> > However, Erika does mention that the paper discusses anatomical
> >> > features of the femur (proto linear aspira, gluteal tuberosity, calcar
> >> > femoral {sp?}), and cortical bone of the ulnae. My understanding is
> >> > these features are not present in arboreal bipedal species, and
> >> > instead indicate the more robust musculature of terrestrial
> >> > bipedalism.
> >> >
> >> > Finally, Erika's expressed reservation with the paper is if the
> >> > evidence supports habitual bipedalism. She argues that would inform
> >> > whether the common ancestor between hominin and panin was more
> >> > human-like or more chimpanzee-like.
> >> My written response was lost. Damn. 15 sentences evaporated.
> Been there, done that. I agree it suks.
> >> The data graphs have nothing about hylobatids or macaques, so are worthless.
> >> Near the end of video one, Erika talks about 'bipedal or arboreal', revealing that she still doesn't get it.
> >> J: "these features are not present in arboreal bipedal species"
> I can't find where Erika says that,

On Sat, 29 Oct 2022 05:26:51 -0700 (PDT), Daud Deden
<daud.deden@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Saturday, October 29, 2022 at 2:11:43 AM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Fri, 28 Oct 2022 21:26:43 -0700 (PDT), Daud Deden
>> <daud....@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 5:45:10 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
>> >> On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 4:45:58 AM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
>> >> > On Thu, 27 Oct 2022 21:53:46 -0700 (PDT), Daud Deden
>> >> > <daud....@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > >On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 12:20:59 AM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
>> >> > >> On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 12:13:33 AM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
>> >> > >> > On Thursday, October 27, 2022 at 10:56:53 PM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
>> >> > >> > > On Thu, 27 Oct 2022 16:44:19 -0700 (PDT), Daud Deden
>> >> > >> > > <daud....@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> > >> > >
>> >> > >> > > >On Thursday, October 27, 2022 at 5:53:29 AM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
>> >> > >> > > >> On Thu, 27 Oct 2022 02:17:42 -0700 (PDT), Daud Deden
>> >> > >> > > >> <daud....@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> > >> > > >>
>> >> > >> > > >> >On Wednesday, October 26, 2022 at 7:56:43 PM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
>> >> > >> > > >> >> On Wed, 26 Oct 2022 03:17:08 -0700 (PDT), Daud Deden
>> >> > >> > > >> >> <daud....@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> > >> > > >> >>
>> >> > >> > > >> >> >On Wednesday, October 26, 2022 at 4:10:49 AM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
>> >> > >> > > >> >> >> On Tue, 25 Oct 2022 16:32:06 -0700 (PDT), Daud Deden
>> >> > >> > > >> >> >> <daud....@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> > >> > > >> >> >>
>> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >On Tuesday, October 25, 2022 at 6:59:05 PM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
>> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> On Tue, 25 Oct 2022 01:18:27 -0700, Trolidan7
>> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> <Trol...@eternal-september.org> wrote:
>> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >>
>> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >On 10/23/22 11:50 PM, jillery wrote:
>> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >> Gutsick Gibbon is the Youtube handle of a biological anthropology PhD
>> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >> student named Erika. Two of her recent videos discuss some of the
>> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >> latest developments relating to the origins of human bipedalism:
>> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >>
>> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbQAgPSHbZE>
>> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >>
>> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >> The above is a link to a 32-minute video where Erika discusses several
>> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >> papers relating to Sahelanthropus tchadensis. This fossil is
>> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >> remarkable in part because it's dated to about 7mya and was found in
>> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >> central-african Chad, and also because it may be the oldest bipedal
>> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >> hominin fossil found to date. However, there appears to be strong
>> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >> disagreement whether the evidence supports bipedalism.
>> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >>
>> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nwkfkp360ps>
>> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >>
>> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >> The above is a link to a 22-minute video where Erika discusses several
>> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >> hypotheses about *why* our ancestors shifted to obligate bipedalism.
>> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >> She discusses several hypotheses, and presents compelling arguments
>> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >> for her preferred one.
>> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >
>> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >I tend to think of it as none of the above.
>> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >
>> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >Simply because it is not that easy to stand upright.
>> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >
>> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >When an animal stands upright you need to solve a problem -
>> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >how do you keep from falling over forward and backward.
>> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >
>> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >This might seem simple but it is not because with a four
>> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >footed animal the center of gravity forward and backward
>> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >is between the front legs and the back legs, and often
>> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >that is a greater distance than between the left legs and
>> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >the right legs.
>> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> Watch the cited videos. Erika points out the challenges of going from
>> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> quadruped to biped, the differences between upright posture and
>> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> bipedalism, and the plausibility of suspensory orthograde posture in
>> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> trees as a precursor to bipedalism on the ground.
>> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >Some animals that sort of walk on twos have not solved the
>> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >problem - a kangaroo can hop but in general it can not
>> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >stably stand. Either way, in essence, the long hand enables
>> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >force to be supplied to the far front and far back to counter
>> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >falling forward or backward - the forefoot and big toe are
>> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >the front force appliers and the heel is the back force
>> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >applier. Then of course there are some animals that might
>> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >sort of walk on threes (I am thinking of the Jerboa) - but
>> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >humans have an extra problem because they have no tail to
>> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >possibly act as an extra walking limb, or at least a balance.
>> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> That's why humans like big butts, I can not lie.
>> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >
>> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >Bigger butt bones, bigger brain bones, initially.
>> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >Homo erectus had unusually thick dense femurs and unusually thick dense occiputs (rear skull bone), which counterbalanced the pace over orthogonal bipedal treks on the ground, substituting for the more typical long dense tail of other bipeds (T rex, giant short faced kangaroo, giant ground sloth, running jesus lizard). This primitive mechanical gyroscope was replaced by genetic software improvements enabling reduced body bone weight (esp. femur & occiput), faster & longer bipedal locomotion, drastically reduced climbing/brachiating abilities.
>> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >
>> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >Casually walking while chewing gum, chatting and carrying a squirming child is something only humans could ever do.
>> >> > >> > > >> >> >> @378 cm^3, S. tchadensis' braincase is similar to that of extant
>> >> > >> > > >> >> >> chimpanzees and approximately a third the size of modern human brains.
>> >> > >> > > >> >> >S chadensis was imo not a habitual nor obligate terrestrial orthograde biped, nor a part-time knucklewalking terrestrial quadruped, its foramen magnum reflected a more primitive arboreal orthograde bipedalism associated with suspensory slow brachiation x arboreal bipedalism, as in European miocene - pliocene apes and similar to but distinct from faster extant gibbons.
>> >> > >> > > >> >> >
>> >> > >> > > >> >> >Chimps & gorillas became more quadrupedal (partly pronograde terrestrial knucklewalking) while Homo became more bipedal (fully orthograde habitual obligate terrestrial striding), these produced changes of position and orientation of the foramen magnum.
>> >> > >> > > >> >> >
>> >> > >> > > >> >> >https://carta.anthropogeny.org/moca/topics/foramen-magnum-placement#:~:text=The%20foramen%20magnum%20position%20has,case%20for%20Ardipithecus%20and%20Sahelanthropus.
>> >> > >> > > >> >> The authors of the paper Erika cited disagree with your opinion.
>> >> > >> > > >> >They might be right.
>> >> > >> > > >> If only there were some way to judge between contrasting opinions...
>> >> > >> > > >
>> >> > >> > > >Parsimony is good.
>> >> > >> > > >Please direct me to the author(s) who disagree with what I wrote earlier. I don't know where to start, which vid, which paper... I'll examine inconsistencies (their or mine).
>> >> > >> > > Once again, watch the cited video. Erika identifies the paper in the
>> >> > >> > > first few minutes of the first vdeo. But if you watch/listen to all
>> >> > >> > > of both, you might actually learn something.
>> >> > >> > Ok, I'd watched half of the 2nd video. I'll watch both tomorrow. I'll certainly learn something, I always do. For now, I stand behind every word I wrote earlier about Homo & Sahelanthropus.
>> >> > >> After a sneak peek, I see the paper, Postcranial ..., about the femur. I've skimmed it, no change in my thinking. But I'm flexible.
>> >> > >I am so far sorely disappointed. At around 8:23, Erika intelligently but ignorantly describes the position of the foramen magnum and its significance. To her, bipedalism is terrestrial bipedalism. That is the central flaw in the study of hominoid, hominin & Homo evolution, one which I have already specifically addressed earlier. She and the various authors seem to be unable to comprehend the significance of arboreal habitual bipedalism. The authors do not disagree with my opinion, they are not even aware of the concept that bipedalism led to ape quadrupedalism. Erika is bright, but as blind as they are on this. More tomorrow, hopefully more enlightening.
>> >> > I acknowledge in the first video Erika mostly uses "bipedalism"
>> >> > without distinction between arboreal and terrestrial. However, her
>> >> > argument explicitly distinguishes between hominin and panin, and also
>> >> > explicitly mentions terrestrial bipedality once. My understanding is
>> >> > Erika uses hominin v panin to distinguish terrestrial v arboreal
>> >> > bipedalism. I could be wrong.
>> >> >
>> >> > Also, in the second video, Erika explicitly identifies arboreal
>> >> > bipedalism as an enabling adaptation to terrestrial bipedalism. So to
>> >> > say she doesn't comprehend its significance is an exaggeration at
>> >> > least.
>> >> >
>> >> > Erika is careful for copyright purposes to limit how much of the cited
>> >> > paper she includes in her video, so I can't say if the paper's authors
>> >> > make an explicit distinction between arboreal and terrestrial
>> >> > bipedalism. Someone who has access to the full paper will have to
>> >> > weigh in on that point.
>> >> >
>> >> > However, Erika does mention that the paper discusses anatomical
>> >> > features of the femur (proto linear aspira, gluteal tuberosity, calcar
>> >> > femoral {sp?}), and cortical bone of the ulnae. My understanding is
>> >> > these features are not present in arboreal bipedal species, and
>> >> > instead indicate the more robust musculature of terrestrial
>> >> > bipedalism.
>> >> >
>> >> > Finally, Erika's expressed reservation with the paper is if the
>> >> > evidence supports habitual bipedalism. She argues that would inform
>> >> > whether the common ancestor between hominin and panin was more
>> >> > human-like or more chimpanzee-like.
>> >> My written response was lost. Damn. 15 sentences evaporated.
>> Been there, done that. I agree it suks.
>> >> The data graphs have nothing about hylobatids or macaques, so are worthless.
>> >> Near the end of video one, Erika talks about 'bipedal or arboreal', revealing that she still doesn't get it.
>> >> J: "these features are not present in arboreal bipedal species"
>> I can't find where Erika says that,
>
>Possibly video 2.

On Sunday, October 30, 2022 at 2:40:46 AM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sat, 29 Oct 2022 05:26:51 -0700 (PDT), Daud Deden
> <daud....@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Saturday, October 29, 2022 at 2:11:43 AM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> On Fri, 28 Oct 2022 21:26:43 -0700 (PDT), Daud Deden
> >> <daud....@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 5:45:10 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> >> >> On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 4:45:58 AM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> >> > On Thu, 27 Oct 2022 21:53:46 -0700 (PDT), Daud Deden
> >> >> > <daud....@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> > >On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 12:20:59 AM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> >> >> > >> On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 12:13:33 AM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> >> >> > >> > On Thursday, October 27, 2022 at 10:56:53 PM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> >> > >> > > On Thu, 27 Oct 2022 16:44:19 -0700 (PDT), Daud Deden
> >> >> > >> > > <daud....@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> > >> > >
> >> >> > >> > > >On Thursday, October 27, 2022 at 5:53:29 AM UTC-4, 69jp....@gmail.com wrote:
> >> >> > >> > > >> On Thu, 27 Oct 2022 02:17:42 -0700 (PDT), Daud Deden
> >> >> > >> > > >> <daud....@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> > >> > > >>
> >> >> > >> > > >> >On Wednesday, October 26, 2022 at 7:56:43 PM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> >> > >> > > >> >> On Wed, 26 Oct 2022 03:17:08 -0700 (PDT), Daud Deden
> >> >> > >> > > >> >> <daud....@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> > >> > > >> >>
> >> >> > >> > > >> >> >On Wednesday, October 26, 2022 at 4:10:49 AM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> >> > >> > > >> >> >> On Tue, 25 Oct 2022 16:32:06 -0700 (PDT), Daud Deden
> >> >> > >> > > >> >> >> <daud....@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> > >> > > >> >> >>
> >> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >On Tuesday, October 25, 2022 at 6:59:05 PM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> On Tue, 25 Oct 2022 01:18:27 -0700, Trolidan7
> >> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> <Trol...@eternal-september.org> wrote:
> >> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >>
> >> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >On 10/23/22 11:50 PM, jillery wrote:
> >> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >> Gutsick Gibbon is the Youtube handle of a biological anthropology PhD
> >> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >> student named Erika. Two of her recent videos discuss some of the
> >> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >> latest developments relating to the origins of human bipedalism:
> >> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbQAgPSHbZE>
> >> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >> The above is a link to a 32-minute video where Erika discusses several
> >> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >> papers relating to Sahelanthropus tchadensis. This fossil is
> >> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >> remarkable in part because it's dated to about 7mya and was found in
> >> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >> central-african Chad, and also because it may be the oldest bipedal
> >> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >> hominin fossil found to date. However, there appears to be strong
> >> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >> disagreement whether the evidence supports bipedalism.
> >> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nwkfkp360ps>
> >> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >> The above is a link to a 22-minute video where Erika discusses several
> >> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >> hypotheses about *why* our ancestors shifted to obligate bipedalism.
> >> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >> She discusses several hypotheses, and presents compelling arguments
> >> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >> for her preferred one.
> >> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >I tend to think of it as none of the above.
> >> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >Simply because it is not that easy to stand upright.
> >> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >When an animal stands upright you need to solve a problem -
> >> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >how do you keep from falling over forward and backward.
> >> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >This might seem simple but it is not because with a four
> >> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >footed animal the center of gravity forward and backward
> >> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >is between the front legs and the back legs, and often
> >> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >that is a greater distance than between the left legs and
> >> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >the right legs.
> >> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> Watch the cited videos. Erika points out the challenges of going from
> >> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> quadruped to biped, the differences between upright posture and
> >> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> bipedalism, and the plausibility of suspensory orthograde posture in
> >> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> trees as a precursor to bipedalism on the ground.
> >> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >Some animals that sort of walk on twos have not solved the
> >> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >problem - a kangaroo can hop but in general it can not
> >> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >stably stand. Either way, in essence, the long hand enables
> >> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >force to be supplied to the far front and far back to counter
> >> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >falling forward or backward - the forefoot and big toe are
> >> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >the front force appliers and the heel is the back force
> >> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >applier. Then of course there are some animals that might
> >> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >sort of walk on threes (I am thinking of the Jerboa) - but
> >> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >humans have an extra problem because they have no tail to
> >> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> >possibly act as an extra walking limb, or at least a balance.
> >> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >> That's why humans like big butts, I can not lie.
> >> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >
> >> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >Bigger butt bones, bigger brain bones, initially..
> >> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >Homo erectus had unusually thick dense femurs and unusually thick dense occiputs (rear skull bone), which counterbalanced the pace over orthogonal bipedal treks on the ground, substituting for the more typical long dense tail of other bipeds (T rex, giant short faced kangaroo, giant ground sloth, running jesus lizard). This primitive mechanical gyroscope was replaced by genetic software improvements enabling reduced body bone weight (esp. femur & occiput), faster & longer bipedal locomotion, drastically reduced climbing/brachiating abilities.
> >> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >
> >> >> > >> > > >> >> >> >Casually walking while chewing gum, chatting and carrying a squirming child is something only humans could ever do.
> >> >> > >> > > >> >> >> @378 cm^3, S. tchadensis' braincase is similar to that of extant
> >> >> > >> > > >> >> >> chimpanzees and approximately a third the size of modern human brains.
> >> >> > >> > > >> >> >S chadensis was imo not a habitual nor obligate terrestrial orthograde biped, nor a part-time knucklewalking terrestrial quadruped, its foramen magnum reflected a more primitive arboreal orthograde bipedalism associated with suspensory slow brachiation x arboreal bipedalism, as in European miocene - pliocene apes and similar to but distinct from faster extant gibbons.
> >> >> > >> > > >> >> >
> >> >> > >> > > >> >> >Chimps & gorillas became more quadrupedal (partly pronograde terrestrial knucklewalking) while Homo became more bipedal (fully orthograde habitual obligate terrestrial striding), these produced changes of position and orientation of the foramen magnum.
> >> >> > >> > > >> >> >
> >> >> > >> > > >> >> >https://carta.anthropogeny.org/moca/topics/foramen-magnum-placement#:~:text=The%20foramen%20magnum%20position%20has,case%20for%20Ardipithecus%20and%20Sahelanthropus.
> >> >> > >> > > >> >> The authors of the paper Erika cited disagree with your opinion.
> >> >> > >> > > >> >They might be right.
> >> >> > >> > > >> If only there were some way to judge between contrasting opinions...
> >> >> > >> > > >
> >> >> > >> > > >Parsimony is good.
> >> >> > >> > > >Please direct me to the author(s) who disagree with what I wrote earlier. I don't know where to start, which vid, which paper... I'll examine inconsistencies (their or mine).
> >> >> > >> > > Once again, watch the cited video. Erika identifies the paper in the
> >> >> > >> > > first few minutes of the first vdeo. But if you watch/listen to all
> >> >> > >> > > of both, you might actually learn something.
> >> >> > >> > Ok, I'd watched half of the 2nd video. I'll watch both tomorrow. I'll certainly learn something, I always do. For now, I stand behind every word I wrote earlier about Homo & Sahelanthropus.
> >> >> > >> After a sneak peek, I see the paper, Postcranial ..., about the femur. I've skimmed it, no change in my thinking. But I'm flexible.
> >> >> > >I am so far sorely disappointed. At around 8:23, Erika intelligently but ignorantly describes the position of the foramen magnum and its significance. To her, bipedalism is terrestrial bipedalism. That is the central flaw in the study of hominoid, hominin & Homo evolution, one which I have already specifically addressed earlier. She and the various authors seem to be unable to comprehend the significance of arboreal habitual bipedalism.. The authors do not disagree with my opinion, they are not even aware of the concept that bipedalism led to ape quadrupedalism. Erika is bright, but as blind as they are on this. More tomorrow, hopefully more enlightening.
> >> >> > I acknowledge in the first video Erika mostly uses "bipedalism"
> >> >> > without distinction between arboreal and terrestrial. However, her
> >> >> > argument explicitly distinguishes between hominin and panin, and also
> >> >> > explicitly mentions terrestrial bipedality once. My understanding is
> >> >> > Erika uses hominin v panin to distinguish terrestrial v arboreal
> >> >> > bipedalism. I could be wrong.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Also, in the second video, Erika explicitly identifies arboreal
> >> >> > bipedalism as an enabling adaptation to terrestrial bipedalism. So to
> >> >> > say she doesn't comprehend its significance is an exaggeration at
> >> >> > least.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Erika is careful for copyright purposes to limit how much of the cited
> >> >> > paper she includes in her video, so I can't say if the paper's authors
> >> >> > make an explicit distinction between arboreal and terrestrial
> >> >> > bipedalism. Someone who has access to the full paper will have to
> >> >> > weigh in on that point.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > However, Erika does mention that the paper discusses anatomical
> >> >> > features of the femur (proto linear aspira, gluteal tuberosity, calcar
> >> >> > femoral {sp?}), and cortical bone of the ulnae. My understanding is
> >> >> > these features are not present in arboreal bipedal species, and
> >> >> > instead indicate the more robust musculature of terrestrial
> >> >> > bipedalism.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Finally, Erika's expressed reservation with the paper is if the
> >> >> > evidence supports habitual bipedalism. She argues that would inform
> >> >> > whether the common ancestor between hominin and panin was more
> >> >> > human-like or more chimpanzee-like.
> >> >> My written response was lost. Damn. 15 sentences evaporated.
> >> Been there, done that. I agree it suks.
> >> >> The data graphs have nothing about hylobatids or macaques, so are worthless.
> >> >> Near the end of video one, Erika talks about 'bipedal or arboreal', revealing that she still doesn't get it.
> >> >> J: "these features are not present in arboreal bipedal species"
> >> I can't find where Erika says that,
> >
> >Possibly video 2.
> I can't find your quote in either video. Why don't you know where you
> got that quote?