The _only_ reason I lump hotspotting & tethering is that T-Mobile does.
The limitations for each are combined and therefore treated the same.

To me, the definition of hotspotting is sort of like this:
a. Your phone has access to have cellular data via a tower connection
b. You make your phone an access point
c. Any number of Wi-Fi clients can access that cellular data through it

To me, the definition of tethering might be sort of something like this.
a. Your phone has access to have cellular data via a tower connection
b. You connect your phone by cable to a PC (USB-C to USB-A for example)
c. A single PC can access that cellular data through that wired connection

However, while I've hotspotted at times, I have never tethered.
I do not know if tethering requires anything special on the (Windows) PC.

Does it?

Wally J wrote:

> To me, the definition of hotspotting is sort of like this:
> a. Your phone has access to have cellular data via a tower connection
> b. You make your phone an access point
> c. Any number of Wi-Fi clients can access that cellular data through it

yep, though "any" will have an upper limit.

> To me, the definition of tethering might be sort of something like this.
> a. Your phone has access to have cellular data via a tower connection
> b. You connect your phone by cable to a PC (USB-C to USB-A for example)
> c. A single PC can access that cellular data through that wired connection

possibly bluetooth instead of USB (in the old days IrDA)

> However, while I've hotspotted at times, I have never tethered.
> I do not know if tethering requires anything special on the (Windows) PC.
>
> Does it?

Generally a driver to make a virtual ethernet device appear over the USB
connection (in the old days a virtual COM port and emulated modem with
"AT" commands).

On 18 Dec 2023 04:29:48 +0000 Andy Burns wrote:
>Wally J wrote:
>
>> To me, the definition of hotspotting is sort of like this:
>> a. Your phone has access to have cellular data via a tower connection
>> b. You make your phone an access point
>> c. Any number of Wi-Fi clients can access that cellular data through it
>
>yep, though "any" will have an upper limit.
>
>> To me, the definition of tethering might be sort of something like this.
>> a. Your phone has access to have cellular data via a tower connection
>> b. You connect your phone by cable to a PC (USB-C to USB-A for example)
>> c. A single PC can access that cellular data through that wired connection
>
>possibly bluetooth instead of USB (in the old days IrDA)
>
>> However, while I've hotspotted at times, I have never tethered.
>> I do not know if tethering requires anything special on the (Windows) PC.
>>
>> Does it?
>
>Generally a driver to make a virtual ethernet device appear over the USB
>connection (in the old days a virtual COM port and emulated modem with
>"AT" commands).

When I did it in the '90s, at work, I used IrDA and Nokia PC Suite
<https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokia_PC_Suite>

Ten years later, when not at work, Bluetooth or USB. On my first tablet, a
Zaurus C860 running Linux, I had to run scripts which issued the AT
commands to set up the GPRS connection. I also had a very long USB cable
so that if necessary I could hoist the phone up into my boat's rigging to
get a better signal.
--
(Remove numerics from email address)

Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
> Wally J wrote:
>
> > To me, the definition of hotspotting is sort of like this:
> > a. Your phone has access to have cellular data via a tower connection
> > b. You make your phone an access point
> > c. Any number of Wi-Fi clients can access that cellular data through it
>
> yep, though "any" will have an upper limit.
>
> > To me, the definition of tethering might be sort of something like this.
> > a. Your phone has access to have cellular data via a tower connection
> > b. You connect your phone by cable to a PC (USB-C to USB-A for example)
> > c. A single PC can access that cellular data through that wired connection
>
> possibly bluetooth instead of USB (in the old days IrDA)
>
> > However, while I've hotspotted at times, I have never tethered.
> > I do not know if tethering requires anything special on the (Windows) PC.
> >
> > Does it?
>
> Generally a driver to make a virtual ethernet device appear over the USB
> connection (in the old days a virtual COM port and emulated modem with
> "AT" commands).

Often the USB sticks show up as generic USB serial or USB network devices,
so they don't need specific drivers. Sometimes they provide a virtual CD
drive with the Windows software on it. The software is mostly for network
features like sending SMS or showing your credit balance - in general it's
possible to get the sticks working without it.

On older 3G/4G sticks (not sure about modern ones) the stick would show up
with the CD and then the software sent it a 'secret handshake' packet to
flip it into USB serial mode - either this could be turned off (so it was
serial to begin with) or there was software usb_modeswitch for Linux which
knew how to send the secret handshake when the stick was plugged in.

One advantage of Bluetooth serial or the USB virtual modem approach is they
don't decrement the TTL as the routed networking does, so your network may
not be able to tell you are tethering.

Theo

On 2023-12-18 00:44, Wally J wrote:
> The _only_ reason I lump hotspotting & tethering is that T-Mobile does.
> The limitations for each are combined and therefore treated the same.
>
> To me, the definition of hotspotting is sort of like this:
> a. Your phone has access to have cellular data via a tower connection
> b. You make your phone an access point
> c. Any number of Wi-Fi clients can access that cellular data through it
>
> To me, the definition of tethering might be sort of something like this.
> a. Your phone has access to have cellular data via a tower connection
> b. You connect your phone by cable to a PC (USB-C to USB-A for example)
> c. A single PC can access that cellular data through that wired connection
>
> However, while I've hotspotted at times, I have never tethered.
> I do not know if tethering requires anything special on the (Windows) PC.
>
> Does it?

Both methods I call tethering.

When using WiFi, the phone may limit the number of clients. I think mine
says six.

When using a dedicated USB stick with a SIM inside, that is not tethering.

I have only done it on Linux, and it works instantly. The cable method
may be more quirky, but is more private and the phone doesn't discharge.

I haven't managed to do it using BT.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

Andy Burns wrote:
> Generally a driver to make a virtual ethernet device appear over the USB
> connection (in the old days a virtual COM port and emulated modem with
> "AT" commands).

Dave Royal <dave@dave123royal.com> wrote

> Ten years later, when not at work, Bluetooth or USB. On my first tablet, a
> Zaurus C860 running Linux, I had to run scripts which issued the AT
> commands to set up the GPRS connection. I also had a very long USB cable
> so that if necessary I could hoist the phone up into my boat's rigging to
> get a better signal.

Thanks Dave & Andy & others for the advice on tethering which seems to be
a. Bluetooth (nowadays)
b. USB (nowadays)
c. IrDA (olden days)

I wonder if "ad hoc Wi-Fi" is considered either tethering or hotspotting?
(Probably tethering perhaps as it's not the same as access-point Wi-Fi.)

It has been a long time since I've issued AT commands (into a US Robotics
modem tied to the serial port of a PC) so let's hope things have improved.

What seems most significantly different between hotspotting & tethering is
A. One to multiple (hotspotting) versus one to one (tethering)
B. Wi-Fi Access Point (hotspotting) versus irDA/USB/Bluetooth (tethering)

The open question is whether the virtual Ethernet device Andy spoke about
happens automagically on Windows or if it has to be installed specifically.

Googling, I found these instructions for Windows 10 and 11.
<https://www.lifewire.com/enable-usb-tethering-windows-11-5196403>
<https://www.lifewire.com/set-up-usb-tethering-windows-10-4584419>

Which seem to claim the software setup happens automagically on Windows 10.
1. Connect your Android or iPhone to your PC with a USB cable.
2. Turn on USB Tethering (Android) or Personal Hotspot (iPhone).
3. Open Windows Network and Internet settings to verify the connection.
Paradoxically with a different procedure on Windows 11.
1. Turn off Windows 11 Wi-Fi & connect your smartphone via a USB cable.
2. iPhone Settings > Cellular > Personal Hotspot > Allow Others to Join.
Android Settings > Network & internet > Hotspot & tethering > USB tethering.

Does it work was pretty much what I was wondering as hotspotting seems more
intuitive if the PC has Wi-Fi (which most Windows laptops will have).

On an older desktop, there may only be the USB connection (mine are
all bridged using an old spare router) so tethering might be needed.

On 18 Dec 2023 11:09:38 -0400 Wally J wrote:

>Thanks Dave & Andy & others for the advice on tethering which seems to be
>a. Bluetooth (nowadays)
>b. USB (nowadays)
>c. IrDA (olden days)
>
>I wonder if "ad hoc Wi-Fi" is considered either tethering or hotspotting?
>(Probably tethering perhaps as it's not the same as access-point Wi-Fi.)

Some of my later Nokia phones supported Java apps and I used one called
JoikuSpot. I remember having a paid-for version.

<https://www.science20.com/newswire/joikuspot_turns_symbian_s60_smartphones_to_wi_fi_hotspots>

That connected >1 devices (tablet and laptop usually) using ad-hoc wiki. I
remember that ad-hoc wasn't supported by a wifi Kindle reader.

JoikuSoft was a Finnish company - like Nokia and later Jolla.

>It has been a long time since I've issued AT commands (into a US Robotics
>modem tied to the serial port of a PC) so let's hope things have improved.
>
>What seems most significantly different between hotspotting & tethering is
>A. One to multiple (hotspotting) versus one to one (tethering)
>B. Wi-Fi Access Point (hotspotting) versus irDA/USB/Bluetooth (tethering)
>
>The open question is whether the virtual Ethernet device Andy spoke about
>happens automagically on Windows or if it has to be installed specifically.
>
>Googling, I found these instructions for Windows 10 and 11.
> <https://www.lifewire.com/enable-usb-tethering-windows-11-5196403>
> <https://www.lifewire.com/set-up-usb-tethering-windows-10-4584419>
>
>Which seem to claim the software setup happens automagically on Windows 10.
>1. Connect your Android or iPhone to your PC with a USB cable.
>2. Turn on USB Tethering (Android) or Personal Hotspot (iPhone).
>3. Open Windows Network and Internet settings to verify the connection.
>Paradoxically with a different procedure on Windows 11.
>1. Turn off Windows 11 Wi-Fi & connect your smartphone via a USB cable.
>2. iPhone Settings > Cellular > Personal Hotspot > Allow Others to Join.
>Android Settings > Network & internet > Hotspot & tethering > USB tethering.
>
>Does it work was pretty much what I was wondering as hotspotting seems more
>intuitive if the PC has Wi-Fi (which most Windows laptops will have).
>
>On an older desktop, there may only be the USB connection (mine are
>all bridged using an old spare router) so tethering might be needed.

--
(Remove numerics from email address)

Wally J wrote:

> It has been a long time since I've issued AT commands (into a US Robotics
> modem tied to the serial port of a PC) so let's hope things have improved.

they got quite convoluted with GPRS modems pretending to "dial"

e.g.
AT+CGDCONT=1,"IP","internet"
ATD*99***1

can pick a pre-defined profile, tell i you want IP not X.25. which APN
to use etc.

Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
> On 2023-12-18 00:44, Wally J wrote:
> > The _only_ reason I lump hotspotting & tethering is that T-Mobile does.
> > The limitations for each are combined and therefore treated the same.
> >
> > To me, the definition of hotspotting is sort of like this:
> > a. Your phone has access to have cellular data via a tower connection
> > b. You make your phone an access point
> > c. Any number of Wi-Fi clients can access that cellular data through it
> >
> > To me, the definition of tethering might be sort of something like this.
> > a. Your phone has access to have cellular data via a tower connection
> > b. You connect your phone by cable to a PC (USB-C to USB-A for example)
> > c. A single PC can access that cellular data through that wired connection
> >
> > However, while I've hotspotted at times, I have never tethered.
> > I do not know if tethering requires anything special on the (Windows) PC.
> >
> > Does it?
>
> Both methods I call tethering.

Wikipedia agrees with you (<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tethering>).

But in many cases a distiction is made between hotspot and thethering,
similar to what 'Wally J' describes.

For example my Samsung Galaxy A51 settings have the main category of
'Mobile Hotspot and Thethering', which is subdivided in:

- Mobile Hotspot, which sets up a Wi-Fi access point, i.e. devices are
connected to the hotspot by Wi-Fi.

- Thethering, which is subdivided in:
- Bluetooth thethering
- USB thethering
- Ethernet thethering

And to answer 'Wally J''s question, yes I've thethered, via USB,
Bluetooth and (as Dave mentioned) IrDA (in the Good Old Days (TM)).

[...]

Andy Burns, 2023-12-18 05:29:

> Wally J wrote:
[...]
>> However, while I've hotspotted at times, I have never tethered.
>> I do not know if tethering requires anything special on the (Windows) PC.
>>
>> Does it?
>
> Generally a driver to make a virtual ethernet device appear over the USB
> connection (in the old days a virtual COM port and emulated modem with
> "AT" commands).

Windows 10/11 should recognize the provided internet connection via USB
tethering as network similar to a WiFi hotspot or ethernet router. So
there should not be any need to emulate a modem.

--
Arno Welzel
https://arnowelzel.de

Andy Burns, 2023-12-18 18:12:

> Wally J wrote:
>
>> It has been a long time since I've issued AT commands (into a US Robotics
>> modem tied to the serial port of a PC) so let's hope things have improved.
>
> they got quite convoluted with GPRS modems pretending to "dial"
>
> e.g.
> AT+CGDCONT=1,"IP","internet"
> ATD*99***1

For Smartphone which are already connected there is no need to "dial"
anything at all when using them for internet access via USB, WiFi or
Bluetooth.

--
Arno Welzel
https://arnowelzel.de

On 2023-12-20 02:10, Arno Welzel wrote:
> Andy Burns, 2023-12-18 05:29:
>
>> Wally J wrote:
> [...]
>>> However, while I've hotspotted at times, I have never tethered.
>>> I do not know if tethering requires anything special on the (Windows) PC.
>>>
>>> Does it?
>>
>> Generally a driver to make a virtual ethernet device appear over the USB
>> connection (in the old days a virtual COM port and emulated modem with
>> "AT" commands).
>
> Windows 10/11 should recognize the provided internet connection via USB
> tethering as network similar to a WiFi hotspot or ethernet router. So
> there should not be any need to emulate a modem.

The decision is not Windows to take.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

Arno Welzel wrote:

> For Smartphone which are already connected there is no need to "dial"
> anything at all when using them for internet access via USB, WiFi or
> Bluetooth.

But a device connected to the smartphone doesn't necessarily know that,
if (for whatever reason) it doesn't use RNDIS it may use the
serial/modem method, the dialling and communicating with a supposed
remote PPP server is all a pretence ...

Carlos E.R., 2023-12-20 02:45:

> On 2023-12-20 02:10, Arno Welzel wrote:
>> Andy Burns, 2023-12-18 05:29:
>>
>>> Wally J wrote:
>> [...]
>>>> However, while I've hotspotted at times, I have never tethered.
>>>> I do not know if tethering requires anything special on the (Windows) PC.
>>>>
>>>> Does it?
>>>
>>> Generally a driver to make a virtual ethernet device appear over the USB
>>> connection (in the old days a virtual COM port and emulated modem with
>>> "AT" commands).
>>
>> Windows 10/11 should recognize the provided internet connection via USB
>> tethering as network similar to a WiFi hotspot or ethernet router. So
>> there should not be any need to emulate a modem.
>
> The decision is not Windows to take.

Just try it and see for yourself.

--
Arno Welzel
https://arnowelzel.de