I sometimes have to press premade registers and pins into molds that are
rather to large to hold flat easily on the arbor press or my shop press.
Also the location can be awkward. I was thinking it might be useful
to setup a small HEAVY table with some rails to move the bridge of a
hydraulic press back and forth for this purpose. I have seen presses
that will allow for side to side movement of the ram. They roll on
bearings, but when activated a large flange is pressed against the
bottom of the bridge.

Ok... tell me everything that is stupid about this idea.... Well
besides the fact that I don't have to do it that often so its kind of
like swatting flies with a 2 x 4.

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

On Thu, 26 Aug 2021 09:48:53 -0700
Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> wrote:

>I sometimes have to press premade registers and pins into molds that are
>rather to large to hold flat easily on the arbor press or my shop press.
> Also the location can be awkward. I was thinking it might be useful
>to setup a small HEAVY table with some rails to move the bridge of a
>hydraulic press back and forth for this purpose. I have seen presses
>that will allow for side to side movement of the ram. They roll on
>bearings, but when activated a large flange is pressed against the
>bottom of the bridge.
>
>Ok... tell me everything that is stupid about this idea.... Well
>besides the fact that I don't have to do it that often so its kind of
>like swatting flies with a 2 x 4.
>

Have you looked at the portapower type stuff? Not sure how much
reach/throat you may need but they have 10 and 20 ton c-clamps. If
nothing else browsing through the offerings may give you some more
ideas ;-)

https://www.enerpac.com/en-us/presses/USPressesHydraulic

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:sg8glm$22t$1@gioia.aioe.org...

I sometimes have to press premade registers and pins into molds that are
rather to large to hold flat easily on the arbor press or my shop press.
Also the location can be awkward. I was thinking it might be useful
to setup a small HEAVY table with some rails to move the bridge of a
hydraulic press back and forth for this purpose. I have seen presses
that will allow for side to side movement of the ram. They roll on
bearings, but when activated a large flange is pressed against the
bottom of the bridge.

Ok... tell me everything that is stupid about this idea.... Well
besides the fact that I don't have to do it that often so its kind of
like swatting flies with a 2 x 4.

'''-- <- Sig marker commented out. OK?
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

-----------------------

I solved a heavy lifting and sliding problem at Segway by ordering a
platform stacker similar to this:
https://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200273774_200273774

It's so handy as a mobile work platform or extension table that I bought one
for $10 at an auction to use around the house, mostly to work on motorized
yard equipment. It drops lower and raises higher than a scissors lift table.
A lever chain hoist replaced the broken hydraulics.

On 8/26/21 12:42 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
> "Bob La Londe"  wrote in message news:sg8glm$22t$1@gioia.aioe.org...
>
> I sometimes have to press premade registers and pins into molds that are
> rather to large to hold flat easily on the arbor press or my shop press.
>  Also the location can be awkward.  I was thinking it might be useful
> to setup a small HEAVY table with some rails to move the bridge of a
> hydraulic press back and forth for this purpose.  I have seen presses
> that will allow for side to side movement of the ram.  They roll on
> bearings, but when activated a large flange is pressed against the
> bottom of the bridge.
>
> Ok... tell me everything that is stupid about this idea....  Well
> besides the fact that I don't have to do it that often so its kind of
> like swatting flies with a 2 x 4.
>
> '''--  <- Sig marker commented out. OK?

YEAH!!!

> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
> https://www.avg.com
>
> -----------------------
>
> I solved a heavy lifting and sliding problem at Segway by ordering a
> platform stacker similar to this:
> https://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200273774_200273774
>
> It's so handy as a mobile work platform or extension table that I bought
> one for $10 at an auction to use around the house, mostly to work on
> motorized yard equipment. It drops lower and raises higher than a
> scissors lift table. A lever chain hoist replaced the broken hydraulics.

The 24in. x 24in. platform looks like a folded piece of sheet. With the
strengthening flanges notched out at the fold line. And the video
doesn't reveal any more structure hidden underneath it. Can it possibly
hold 1000 lbs.?

"Corvid" wrote in message news:sg97ag$tui$1@gioia.aioe.org...

On 8/26/21 12:42 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
> "Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:sg8glm$22t$1@gioia.aioe.org...
>
> I sometimes have to press premade registers and pins into molds that are
> rather to large to hold flat easily on the arbor press or my shop press.
> Also the location can be awkward. I was thinking it might be useful
> to setup a small HEAVY table with some rails to move the bridge of a
> hydraulic press back and forth for this purpose. I have seen presses
> that will allow for side to side movement of the ram. They roll on
> bearings, but when activated a large flange is pressed against the
> bottom of the bridge.
>
> Ok... tell me everything that is stupid about this idea.... Well
> besides the fact that I don't have to do it that often so its kind of
> like swatting flies with a 2 x 4.
>
> '''-- <- Sig marker commented out. OK?

YEAH!!!

> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
> https://www.avg.com
>
> -----------------------
>
> I solved a heavy lifting and sliding problem at Segway by ordering a
> platform stacker similar to this:
> https://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200273774_200273774
>
> It's so handy as a mobile work platform or extension table that I bought
> one for $10 at an auction to use around the house, mostly to work on
> motorized yard equipment. It drops lower and raises higher than a scissors
> lift table. A lever chain hoist replaced the broken hydraulics.

The 24in. x 24in. platform looks like a folded piece of sheet. With the
strengthening flanges notched out at the fold line. And the video
doesn't reveal any more structure hidden underneath it. Can it possibly
hold 1000 lbs.?

---------------------

The Wesco simply had a shorter URL than others I looked at. At Segway I
bought a Vestil for half that price. 1000 Lbs on the small pallet that heavy
objects are delivered on would rest on the edges. Platform stackers are
intended as close-quarters forklifts to store and retrieve stuff from
shelves.

I've seen two versions of the platform and legs, a thin-edged wedge (like
forklift forks) that lowers to the floor between the legs so a box can be
muscled onto it, and a thicker rimmed platform that rests on the legs and
drops low enough to slide the load onto it from a pallet, but not easily
from the floor. Mine is the thicker, higher type though it goes low enough
to push a tilted-back snow thrower onto it. A heavy box or appliance on the
ground can be tilted back high enough on a hand truck to edge it onto the
platform.

I moved from general shop help to apprentice machine designer rapidly enough
that I don't have much experience with warehouse equipment. The most
overloaded, beat-up example of a platform stacker I've seen is the one I
bought for $10, fixed for $40, and modified for off-pavement use, and it has
the stronger-looking platform. The other, good one went for $125 at the
auction.

On Thursday, August 26, 2021 at 9:48:59 AM UTC-7, Bob La Londe wrote:
> I sometimes have to press premade registers and pins into molds that are
> rather to large to hold flat easily on the arbor press or my shop press.
> Also the location can be awkward. I was thinking it might be useful
> to setup a small HEAVY table with some rails to move the bridge of a
> hydraulic press back and forth for this purpose. I have seen presses
> that will allow for side to side movement of the ram. They roll on
> bearings, but when activated a large flange is pressed against the
> bottom of the bridge.

Yeah, my old 50 ton press worked like that. We rarely moved it from center, though.
If the work is too big to easily move, I'd consider a pneumatic hammer (with maybe an
alignment jig), and some pin compliance (like, knurling or using spring pins).

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:sg8glm$22t$1@gioia.aioe.org...

I sometimes have to press premade registers and pins into molds that are
rather to large to hold flat easily on the arbor press or my shop press.
Also the location can be awkward. I was thinking it might be useful
to setup a small HEAVY table with some rails to move the bridge of a
hydraulic press back and forth for this purpose. I have seen presses
that will allow for side to side movement of the ram. They roll on
bearings, but when activated a large flange is pressed against the
bottom of the bridge.

Ok... tell me everything that is stupid about this idea.... Well
besides the fact that I don't have to do it that often so its kind of
like swatting flies with a 2 x 4.

-----------

A gantry crane is a fine answer to lifting problems as it makes you
Superman, able to lift great weights and fly them through the air. Their
problems for me are that they are expensive, bulky and unable to operate off
level pavement.
https://www.harborfreight.com/1-ton-telescoping-gantry-crane-41188.html

For temporary hoisting and moving loads under 1/2 ton I rig two 8' sections
of (salvaged) channel iron overhead and run HF beam trolleys #97392 on them
with chain hoists. Individually the channels are about half the weight of
one comparable Wide Flange beam, easy for two people to lift and manageable
for one with stepladder aid. I set up and took down the 16', 200 Lb gantry
track by myself by attaching boat trailer winches to the supporting tripod
legs with muffler clamps.

The bolts that join the channel webs at the ends provide several
possibilities for leveling hangers, such as turnbuckles or long forged eye
bolts. Depending on length and load the channels may need intermediate bolts
and spacers connecting the webs to prevent shear and lateral deflection. A
single W section beam is better for a permanent installation, but more
difficult to erect and suspend. The channel requires only a few bolt holes
through the web. I used a battery drill and a Portalign.
https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/beam-stress-deflection-d_1312.html
https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/american-standard-steel-channels-d_1321.html
https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/american-wide-flange-steel-beams-d_1319.html

Two hoists could lift a pair of long angle irons under the sides of the
mold, held in place with threaded rod. The rigid slings at the ends could be
slotted angle which allow width changes and suspend the mold from above its
center of gravity. Web slings might let the load twist and fall. As long as
you can jack up one side of the mold to remove or place the angle irons this
should allow you to shift the mold in and out of the press and set it on the
bed. The same rig works even better if the mold has corner lift eyes.

The wheels on the 97392 need to be turned a little smaller to fit into 3" x
4.1 channel. They fit as-is in 4" (high) x 5.4 (Lbs per foot) channel. The
trolley is easier to assemble onto the beam if you drill the lower corners
for long bolts or threaded rod that holds the sides in place while fitting
the hanger rod and spacers.

I use a trolley and hoist at each end to move logs into or out of the
storage shed, thus I stay outside the stack, clear of danger if logs shift
sideways. Once the log is more than half way out I chain the outer end to
the overhead track and move the trolley and hoist to the center so the log
can be swung a quarter turn onto the sawmill bed. The overhead track is
permanent within the shed, temporary outside it.

I described this as if starting from scratch. My second 3" channel trolley
is a shop made mount for the HF 1300 Lb electric hoist that lets me stay
even further from the load than a manual chain fall allows. When working out
back away from power it takes a centered eye bolt to hang a lever chain
hoist. The electric hoist starts with a jolt that visibly deflects the
track, so I've considerably derated its load capacity. A manual hoist can
position much more precisely.

Good luck.

On 8/28/2021 6:30 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
> "Bob La Londe"  wrote in message news:sg8glm$22t$1@gioia.aioe.org...
>
> I sometimes have to press premade registers and pins into molds that are
> rather to large to hold flat easily on the arbor press or my shop press.
>  Also the location can be awkward.  I was thinking it might be useful
> to setup a small HEAVY table with some rails to move the bridge of a
> hydraulic press back and forth for this purpose.  I have seen presses
> that will allow for side to side movement of the ram.  They roll on
> bearings, but when activated a large flange is pressed against the
> bottom of the bridge.
>
> Ok... tell me everything that is stupid about this idea....  Well
> besides the fact that I don't have to do it that often so its kind of
> like swatting flies with a 2 x 4.
>
> -----------
>
> A gantry crane is a fine answer to lifting problems as it makes you
> Superman, able to lift great weights and fly them through the air. Their
> problems for me are that they are expensive, bulky and unable to operate
> off level pavement.
> https://www.harborfreight.com/1-ton-telescoping-gantry-crane-41188.html
>
> For temporary hoisting and moving loads under 1/2 ton I rig two 8'
> sections of (salvaged) channel iron overhead and run HF beam trolleys
> #97392 on them with chain hoists. Individually the channels are about
> half the weight of one comparable Wide Flange beam, easy for two people
> to lift and manageable for one with stepladder aid. I set up and took
> down the 16', 200 Lb gantry track by myself by attaching boat trailer
> winches to the supporting tripod legs with muffler clamps.
>
> The bolts that join the channel webs at the ends provide several
> possibilities for leveling hangers, such as turnbuckles or long forged
> eye bolts. Depending on length and load the channels may need
> intermediate bolts and spacers connecting the webs to prevent shear and
> lateral deflection. A single W section beam is better for a permanent
> installation, but more difficult to erect and suspend. The channel
> requires only a few bolt holes through the web. I used a battery drill
> and a Portalign.
> https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/beam-stress-deflection-d_1312.html
> https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/american-standard-steel-channels-d_1321.html
>
> https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/american-wide-flange-steel-beams-d_1319.html
>
>
> Two hoists could lift a pair of long angle irons under the sides of the
> mold, held in place with threaded rod. The rigid slings at the ends
> could be slotted angle which allow width changes and suspend the mold
> from above its center of gravity. Web slings might let the load twist
> and fall. As long as you can jack up one side of the mold to remove or
> place the angle irons this should allow you to shift the mold in and out
> of the press and set it on the bed. The same rig works even better if
> the mold has corner lift eyes.
>
> The wheels on the 97392 need to be turned a little smaller to fit into
> 3" x 4.1 channel. They fit as-is in 4" (high) x 5.4 (Lbs per foot)
> channel. The trolley is easier to assemble onto the beam if you drill
> the lower corners for long bolts or threaded rod that holds the sides in
> place while fitting the hanger rod and spacers.
>
> I use a trolley and hoist at each end to move logs into or out of the
> storage shed, thus I stay outside the stack, clear of danger if logs
> shift sideways. Once the log is more than half way out I chain the outer
> end to the overhead track and move the trolley and hoist to the center
> so the log can be swung a quarter turn onto the sawmill bed. The
> overhead track is permanent within the shed, temporary outside it.
>
> I described this as if starting from scratch. My second 3" channel
> trolley is a shop made mount for the HF 1300 Lb electric hoist that lets
> me stay even further from the load than a manual chain fall allows. When
> working out back away from power it takes a centered eye bolt to hang a
> lever chain hoist. The electric hoist starts with a jolt that visibly
> deflects the track, so I've considerably derated its load capacity. A
> manual hoist can position much more precisely.
>
> Good luck.
>

I was not at all talking about lifting and hauling a piece of stock. I
was talking specifically about making a press with a X & Y moveable ram.

** I was thinking it might be useful to setup a small HEAVY table with
some rails to move the bridge of a hydraulic press back and forth for
this purpose. **

Like a bridge mill, but reinforced differently with a hydraulic ram
instead of a spindle.

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:sgdq1g$fv2$1@gioia.aioe.org...

I was not at all talking about lifting and hauling a piece of stock. I
was talking specifically about making a press with a X & Y moveable ram.

** I was thinking it might be useful to setup a small HEAVY table with
some rails to move the bridge of a hydraulic press back and forth for
this purpose. **

Like a bridge mill, but reinforced differently with a hydraulic ram
instead of a spindle.

--------------------

You wrote about moving the ram to the mold, I suggested two fairly simple
and inexpensive alternatives to position the mold under the ram because of
the difficulty I've had designing and building a man-portable bridge-like
structure to withstand only one ton, using material on hand that's too large
to accurately machine on my mill (or fit in my shop). It's the inverse of
your problem, with tension and compression swapped.

The Engineeringtoolbox references should help you size the structural
elements to the desired span and force.

"Cam followers" are stud-mounted rollers that are easy to turn into low
profile retractable landing gear for the heavy moving parts. Since the ram
will lift the bridge upward they might not even have to retract.

Maybe you could find and use an old radial arm drill press to press in the
pins?
https://nsmachine.com/product/4-x-9-cincinnati-bickford-radial-arm-drill-2/

On 8/28/2021 3:02 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
> "Bob La Londe"  wrote in message news:sgdq1g$fv2$1@gioia.aioe.org...
>
> I was not at all talking about lifting and hauling a piece of stock.  I
> was talking specifically about making a press with a X & Y moveable ram.
>
> ** I was thinking it might be useful to setup a small HEAVY table with
> some rails to move the bridge of a hydraulic press back and forth for
> this purpose. **
>
> Like a bridge mill, but reinforced differently with a hydraulic ram
> instead of a spindle.
>
> --------------------
>
> You wrote about moving the ram to the mold, I suggested two fairly
> simple and inexpensive alternatives to position the mold under the ram
> because of the difficulty I've had designing and building a man-portable
> bridge-like structure to withstand only one ton, using material on hand
> that's too large to accurately machine on my mill (or fit in my shop).
> It's the inverse of your problem, with tension and compression swapped.
>
> The Engineeringtoolbox references should help you size the structural
> elements to the desired span and force.
>
> "Cam followers" are stud-mounted rollers that are easy to turn into low
> profile retractable landing gear for the heavy moving parts. Since the
> ram will lift the bridge upward they might not even have to retract.
>
> Maybe you could find and use an old radial arm drill press to press in
> the pins?
> https://nsmachine.com/product/4-x-9-cincinnati-bickford-radial-arm-drill-2/
>

I was thinking something a lot less portable. its not like I pick up
and lug around my current presses anyway. I've got a couple pieces of
standard rail I thought might go on the bottom of the structure to pull
against. I expect it needs to be no heavier in tension otherwise than
the 3/16 stamped sheet most of my 20 ton press is made out of now. I
was thinking a 30 by 40 structure with a working range of about 20 x 30.
I could still use it like a regular shop press at one end of the
table. If it worked out well I could get rid of the two shop presses I
have and just keep the 6 ton arbor press for light work. I think the
net space used in the shop might be less.

Of course things always change. Turns out the large pins I though I was
going to have to press in are threaded and fitted. I'll just thread
mill them before they come off the mill table. Still the idea of a
hydraulic ram mounted on an extra heavy duty mobile bridge intrigues me.

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:sgeeh2$p6q$1@gioia.aioe.org...

I was thinking something a lot less portable. its not like I pick up
and lug around my current presses anyway. I've got a couple pieces of
standard rail I thought might go on the bottom of the structure to pull
against. I expect it needs to be no heavier in tension otherwise than
the 3/16 stamped sheet most of my 20 ton press is made out of now. I
was thinking a 30 by 40 structure with a working range of about 20 x 30.
I could still use it like a regular shop press at one end of the
table. If it worked out well I could get rid of the two shop presses I
have and just keep the 6 ton arbor press for light work. I think the
net space used in the shop might be less.

Of course things always change. Turns out the large pins I though I was
going to have to press in are threaded and fitted. I'll just thread
mill them before they come off the mill table. Still the idea of a
hydraulic ram mounted on an extra heavy duty mobile bridge intrigues me.

-------------------------

OK, taking 40" as worst-case beam span between attachments, what is the
maximum ram force?

With both numbers you can experiment with on-line beam calculators to find
the Ixx of the upper crosspiece that gives acceptable deflection at the
center and angular twist of the ram when off center, as the beam bows. I'd
start with simpler pinned end conditions although rigid connections to the
bridge uprights might increase stiffness. The same process gives an idea of
how stiff the table has to be under the ram.

Then you look for shapes with suitable Ixx that lend themselves to being
track for the moving ram. Two parallel channels are an attractive choice,
used on commercial hydraulic presses and engine levelers, but they can fail
by twisting and bending sideways (Iyy). I had to add bolts and spacers
joining the webs and straighten one channel in the Y axis to cure that and
let my gantry track reach proof load. My center splice was stiffer than the
channels themselves, which was the intent. The splice would have been easy
if the trolley wheels didn't have to roll through it.

Some of the salvaged channels (pallet rack shelves) were slightly crooked
and had to be straightened by bending them past their yield point. I was
surprised by how much deflection that required, substantially more than the
calculators indicated for 36 KSI maximum stress. One withstood bending like
a (, over a foot in 8 feet. It may have been 50 KSI steel and was
work-hardened when initially bent. I didn't get close enough to measure
accurately. It helps to gain experience with how steel actually fails, which
isn't intuitive from common experience with other materials.