On Friday, April 9, 2021 at 1:28:46 PM UTC-7, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Fri, 9 Apr 2021 12:50:11 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >I bough two sets of tools from OSH Hardware and one was inches and the other metric. I bought both because they had inch or metric Allan head tools In the process of working on my bike I discovered that the TORX tools which I assumed to be standardized are in fact different from inch sizes to metric. My 3T headset uses the INCH size Torx screw heads and none of the metric kit sized fit.
> There are no SAE or Metric specific Torx bits. Only Torx bits:
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torx>
> The same series of Torx drivers is used to drive
> SAE, metric and other thread system fasteners,
> reducing the number of bit sizes required.
>
> There are also Torx Plus bits:
> A Torx successor, Torx Plus, was introduced around
> 1990 when the original Torx patent was expiring.
> The lobes are more square to allow for higher torque
> and to minimize wear.
>
> Difference between Torx bits and Star bits:
> <https://carlawn.com/star-bits-vs-torx-bits/>
>
> You really should do some Googlie searching before guessing. Maybe
> ask the OSH salesman for help?
>
> We don't know why we bother providing corrections to your postings.
> You seem to enjoy playing the victim and posting erronious
> "information". Maybe if we post similar garbage, you could spend your
> afternoon fixing our mistakes?

This is also true but the problem is that they were experimentally used in places like the 10 speed Centaur lever bar ring tightener. The Torx end have to be shoved in via pulling the lever rubber cover back and then shoving the Torx in. This of course cut the rubber lever cover and eventually destroyed the cover. And they don't make replacement Centaur lever covers because they only allow you to go up one gear at a time rather than the Record 3 or 4. So replacement covers don't look right.

For awhile they were trying Torx on everything. They are nice in that they are very difficult to strip which makes home mechanics try harder and over torque everything. I have several sets of Torx drivers now so of course they are rapidly losing popularity. More than half of the tools in my bike tool box are of no use.

On 1/14/2022 11:34 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Friday, April 9, 2021 at 1:28:46 PM UTC-7, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Fri, 9 Apr 2021 12:50:11 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I bough two sets of tools from OSH Hardware and one was inches and the other metric. I bought both because they had inch or metric Allan head tools In the process of working on my bike I discovered that the TORX tools which I assumed to be standardized are in fact different from inch sizes to metric. My 3T headset uses the INCH size Torx screw heads and none of the metric kit sized fit.
>> There are no SAE or Metric specific Torx bits. Only Torx bits:
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torx>
>> The same series of Torx drivers is used to drive
>> SAE, metric and other thread system fasteners,
>> reducing the number of bit sizes required.
>>
>> There are also Torx Plus bits:
>> A Torx successor, Torx Plus, was introduced around
>> 1990 when the original Torx patent was expiring.
>> The lobes are more square to allow for higher torque
>> and to minimize wear.
>>
>> Difference between Torx bits and Star bits:
>> <https://carlawn.com/star-bits-vs-torx-bits/>
>>
>> You really should do some Googlie searching before guessing. Maybe
>> ask the OSH salesman for help?
>>
>> We don't know why we bother providing corrections to your postings.
>> You seem to enjoy playing the victim and posting erronious
>> "information". Maybe if we post similar garbage, you could spend your
>> afternoon fixing our mistakes?
>
> This is also true but the problem is that they were experimentally used in places like the 10 speed Centaur lever bar ring tightener. The Torx end have to be shoved in via pulling the lever rubber cover back and then shoving the Torx in. This of course cut the rubber lever cover and eventually destroyed the cover. And they don't make replacement Centaur lever covers because they only allow you to go up one gear at a time rather than the Record 3 or 4. So replacement covers don't look right.
>
> For awhile they were trying Torx on everything. They are nice in that they are very difficult to strip which makes home mechanics try harder and over torque everything. I have several sets of Torx drivers now so of course they are rapidly losing popularity. More than half of the tools in my bike tool box are of no use.
>

It's not 'only Centaur Ergo mounts'.
All Ergo mounts and all caliper mounts and it's because the
nuts are now aluminum, not steel.
Torx is a better design for the application.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Friday, January 14, 2022 at 9:50:36 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> On 1/14/2022 11:34 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Friday, April 9, 2021 at 1:28:46 PM UTC-7, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> On Fri, 9 Apr 2021 12:50:11 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
> >> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> I bough two sets of tools from OSH Hardware and one was inches and the other metric. I bought both because they had inch or metric Allan head tools In the process of working on my bike I discovered that the TORX tools which I assumed to be standardized are in fact different from inch sizes to metric. My 3T headset uses the INCH size Torx screw heads and none of the metric kit sized fit.
> >> There are no SAE or Metric specific Torx bits. Only Torx bits:
> >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torx>
> >> The same series of Torx drivers is used to drive
> >> SAE, metric and other thread system fasteners,
> >> reducing the number of bit sizes required.
> >>
> >> There are also Torx Plus bits:
> >> A Torx successor, Torx Plus, was introduced around
> >> 1990 when the original Torx patent was expiring.
> >> The lobes are more square to allow for higher torque
> >> and to minimize wear.
> >>
> >> Difference between Torx bits and Star bits:
> >> <https://carlawn.com/star-bits-vs-torx-bits/>
> >>
> >> You really should do some Googlie searching before guessing. Maybe
> >> ask the OSH salesman for help?
> >>
> >> We don't know why we bother providing corrections to your postings.
> >> You seem to enjoy playing the victim and posting erronious
> >> "information". Maybe if we post similar garbage, you could spend your
> >> afternoon fixing our mistakes?
> >
> > This is also true but the problem is that they were experimentally used in places like the 10 speed Centaur lever bar ring tightener. The Torx end have to be shoved in via pulling the lever rubber cover back and then shoving the Torx in. This of course cut the rubber lever cover and eventually destroyed the cover. And they don't make replacement Centaur lever covers because they only allow you to go up one gear at a time rather than the Record 3 or 4. So replacement covers don't look right.
> >
> > For awhile they were trying Torx on everything. They are nice in that they are very difficult to strip which makes home mechanics try harder and over torque everything. I have several sets of Torx drivers now so of course they are rapidly losing popularity. More than half of the tools in my bike tool box are of no use.
> >
> It's not 'only Centaur Ergo mounts'.
> All Ergo mounts and all caliper mounts and it's because the
> nuts are now aluminum, not steel.
> Torx is a better design for the application.

It was only the Centaur 10 speed, I don't know about those years of other groups like Record and Chorus which were 11 speeds. But when Centaur converted to 11 speed, Campy went from the Torx 27 to the 5 (??) mm hex again because of the Torx problem of cutting the rubber covers.

On 1/14/2022 3:50 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Friday, January 14, 2022 at 9:50:36 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 1/14/2022 11:34 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> On Friday, April 9, 2021 at 1:28:46 PM UTC-7, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 9 Apr 2021 12:50:11 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
>>>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I bough two sets of tools from OSH Hardware and one was inches and the other metric. I bought both because they had inch or metric Allan head tools In the process of working on my bike I discovered that the TORX tools which I assumed to be standardized are in fact different from inch sizes to metric. My 3T headset uses the INCH size Torx screw heads and none of the metric kit sized fit.
>>>> There are no SAE or Metric specific Torx bits. Only Torx bits:
>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torx>
>>>> The same series of Torx drivers is used to drive
>>>> SAE, metric and other thread system fasteners,
>>>> reducing the number of bit sizes required.
>>>>
>>>> There are also Torx Plus bits:
>>>> A Torx successor, Torx Plus, was introduced around
>>>> 1990 when the original Torx patent was expiring.
>>>> The lobes are more square to allow for higher torque
>>>> and to minimize wear.
>>>>
>>>> Difference between Torx bits and Star bits:
>>>> <https://carlawn.com/star-bits-vs-torx-bits/>
>>>>
>>>> You really should do some Googlie searching before guessing. Maybe
>>>> ask the OSH salesman for help?
>>>>
>>>> We don't know why we bother providing corrections to your postings.
>>>> You seem to enjoy playing the victim and posting erronious
>>>> "information". Maybe if we post similar garbage, you could spend your
>>>> afternoon fixing our mistakes?
>>>
>>> This is also true but the problem is that they were experimentally used in places like the 10 speed Centaur lever bar ring tightener. The Torx end have to be shoved in via pulling the lever rubber cover back and then shoving the Torx in. This of course cut the rubber lever cover and eventually destroyed the cover. And they don't make replacement Centaur lever covers because they only allow you to go up one gear at a time rather than the Record 3 or 4. So replacement covers don't look right.
>>>
>>> For awhile they were trying Torx on everything. They are nice in that they are very difficult to strip which makes home mechanics try harder and over torque everything. I have several sets of Torx drivers now so of course they are rapidly losing popularity. More than half of the tools in my bike tool box are of no use.
>>>
>> It's not 'only Centaur Ergo mounts'.
>> All Ergo mounts and all caliper mounts and it's because the
>> nuts are now aluminum, not steel.
>> Torx is a better design for the application.
>
> It was only the Centaur 10 speed, I don't know about those years of other groups like Record and Chorus which were 11 speeds. But when Centaur converted to 11 speed, Campy went from the Torx 27 to the 5 (??) mm hex again because of the Torx problem of cutting the rubber covers.
>

I just peeked into a new set of Centaur 11 and of Chorus 12.
Yep, both aluminum Torx.

But hey it's just a sleeved allen nut. You can swap a
chromed steel allen one if you prefer those. This should not
be any big deal.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Friday, January 14, 2022 at 2:47:32 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> On 1/14/2022 3:50 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Friday, January 14, 2022 at 9:50:36 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> >> On 1/14/2022 11:34 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>> On Friday, April 9, 2021 at 1:28:46 PM UTC-7, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>> On Fri, 9 Apr 2021 12:50:11 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
> >>>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> I bough two sets of tools from OSH Hardware and one was inches and the other metric. I bought both because they had inch or metric Allan head tools In the process of working on my bike I discovered that the TORX tools which I assumed to be standardized are in fact different from inch sizes to metric. My 3T headset uses the INCH size Torx screw heads and none of the metric kit sized fit.
> >>>> There are no SAE or Metric specific Torx bits. Only Torx bits:
> >>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torx>
> >>>> The same series of Torx drivers is used to drive
> >>>> SAE, metric and other thread system fasteners,
> >>>> reducing the number of bit sizes required.
> >>>>
> >>>> There are also Torx Plus bits:
> >>>> A Torx successor, Torx Plus, was introduced around
> >>>> 1990 when the original Torx patent was expiring.
> >>>> The lobes are more square to allow for higher torque
> >>>> and to minimize wear.
> >>>>
> >>>> Difference between Torx bits and Star bits:
> >>>> <https://carlawn.com/star-bits-vs-torx-bits/>
> >>>>
> >>>> You really should do some Googlie searching before guessing. Maybe
> >>>> ask the OSH salesman for help?
> >>>>
> >>>> We don't know why we bother providing corrections to your postings.
> >>>> You seem to enjoy playing the victim and posting erronious
> >>>> "information". Maybe if we post similar garbage, you could spend your
> >>>> afternoon fixing our mistakes?
> >>>
> >>> This is also true but the problem is that they were experimentally used in places like the 10 speed Centaur lever bar ring tightener. The Torx end have to be shoved in via pulling the lever rubber cover back and then shoving the Torx in. This of course cut the rubber lever cover and eventually destroyed the cover. And they don't make replacement Centaur lever covers because they only allow you to go up one gear at a time rather than the Record 3 or 4. So replacement covers don't look right.
> >>>
> >>> For awhile they were trying Torx on everything. They are nice in that they are very difficult to strip which makes home mechanics try harder and over torque everything. I have several sets of Torx drivers now so of course they are rapidly losing popularity. More than half of the tools in my bike tool box are of no use.
> >>>
> >> It's not 'only Centaur Ergo mounts'.
> >> All Ergo mounts and all caliper mounts and it's because the
> >> nuts are now aluminum, not steel.
> >> Torx is a better design for the application.
> >
> > It was only the Centaur 10 speed, I don't know about those years of other groups like Record and Chorus which were 11 speeds. But when Centaur converted to 11 speed, Campy went from the Torx 27 to the 5 (??) mm hex again because of the Torx problem of cutting the rubber covers.
> >
> I just peeked into a new set of Centaur 11 and of Chorus 12.
> Yep, both aluminum Torx.
>
> But hey it's just a sleeved allen nut. You can swap a
> chromed steel allen one if you prefer those. This should not
> be any big deal.

have two sets of new or new middle of last year Centaur and they have 5 mm (I think) hex and not Torx. As I said, while the Torx is superior connector into aluminum, it has the serious problem of cutting the rubber lever hoods. And I haven't figure out a way to prevent this without forcibly flexing the hood out of the way which is almost as bad on the hoods.

On 1/15/2022 2:03 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Friday, January 14, 2022 at 2:47:32 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 1/14/2022 3:50 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> On Friday, January 14, 2022 at 9:50:36 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 1/14/2022 11:34 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>> On Friday, April 9, 2021 at 1:28:46 PM UTC-7, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>> On Fri, 9 Apr 2021 12:50:11 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
>>>>>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I bough two sets of tools from OSH Hardware and one was inches and the other metric. I bought both because they had inch or metric Allan head tools In the process of working on my bike I discovered that the TORX tools which I assumed to be standardized are in fact different from inch sizes to metric. My 3T headset uses the INCH size Torx screw heads and none of the metric kit sized fit.
>>>>>> There are no SAE or Metric specific Torx bits. Only Torx bits:
>>>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torx>
>>>>>> The same series of Torx drivers is used to drive
>>>>>> SAE, metric and other thread system fasteners,
>>>>>> reducing the number of bit sizes required.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There are also Torx Plus bits:
>>>>>> A Torx successor, Torx Plus, was introduced around
>>>>>> 1990 when the original Torx patent was expiring.
>>>>>> The lobes are more square to allow for higher torque
>>>>>> and to minimize wear.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Difference between Torx bits and Star bits:
>>>>>> <https://carlawn.com/star-bits-vs-torx-bits/>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You really should do some Googlie searching before guessing. Maybe
>>>>>> ask the OSH salesman for help?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We don't know why we bother providing corrections to your postings.
>>>>>> You seem to enjoy playing the victim and posting erronious
>>>>>> "information". Maybe if we post similar garbage, you could spend your
>>>>>> afternoon fixing our mistakes?
>>>>>
>>>>> This is also true but the problem is that they were experimentally used in places like the 10 speed Centaur lever bar ring tightener. The Torx end have to be shoved in via pulling the lever rubber cover back and then shoving the Torx in. This of course cut the rubber lever cover and eventually destroyed the cover. And they don't make replacement Centaur lever covers because they only allow you to go up one gear at a time rather than the Record 3 or 4. So replacement covers don't look right.
>>>>>
>>>>> For awhile they were trying Torx on everything. They are nice in that they are very difficult to strip which makes home mechanics try harder and over torque everything. I have several sets of Torx drivers now so of course they are rapidly losing popularity. More than half of the tools in my bike tool box are of no use.
>>>>>
>>>> It's not 'only Centaur Ergo mounts'.
>>>> All Ergo mounts and all caliper mounts and it's because the
>>>> nuts are now aluminum, not steel.
>>>> Torx is a better design for the application.
>>>
>>> It was only the Centaur 10 speed, I don't know about those years of other groups like Record and Chorus which were 11 speeds. But when Centaur converted to 11 speed, Campy went from the Torx 27 to the 5 (??) mm hex again because of the Torx problem of cutting the rubber covers.
>>>
>> I just peeked into a new set of Centaur 11 and of Chorus 12.
>> Yep, both aluminum Torx.
>>
>> But hey it's just a sleeved allen nut. You can swap a
>> chromed steel allen one if you prefer those. This should not
>> be any big deal.
>
> have two sets of new or new middle of last year Centaur and they have 5 mm (I think) hex and not Torx. As I said, while the Torx is superior connector into aluminum, it has the serious problem of cutting the rubber lever hoods. And I haven't figure out a way to prevent this without forcibly flexing the hood out of the way which is almost as bad on the hoods.
>

Take a peek at the nice pictures in your manual. Campagnolo
suggests you slip the tool straight in from the front, under
the rubber cover.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Saturday, January 15, 2022 at 2:34:08 PM UTC-6, AMuzi wrote:
> On 1/15/2022 2:03 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Friday, January 14, 2022 at 2:47:32 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> >> On 1/14/2022 3:50 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>> On Friday, January 14, 2022 at 9:50:36 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>> On 1/14/2022 11:34 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>>> On Friday, April 9, 2021 at 1:28:46 PM UTC-7, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>>>> On Fri, 9 Apr 2021 12:50:11 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
> >>>>>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I bough two sets of tools from OSH Hardware and one was inches and the other metric. I bought both because they had inch or metric Allan head tools In the process of working on my bike I discovered that the TORX tools which I assumed to be standardized are in fact different from inch sizes to metric. My 3T headset uses the INCH size Torx screw heads and none of the metric kit sized fit.
> >>>>>> There are no SAE or Metric specific Torx bits. Only Torx bits:
> >>>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torx>
> >>>>>> The same series of Torx drivers is used to drive
> >>>>>> SAE, metric and other thread system fasteners,
> >>>>>> reducing the number of bit sizes required.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> There are also Torx Plus bits:
> >>>>>> A Torx successor, Torx Plus, was introduced around
> >>>>>> 1990 when the original Torx patent was expiring.
> >>>>>> The lobes are more square to allow for higher torque
> >>>>>> and to minimize wear.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Difference between Torx bits and Star bits:
> >>>>>> <https://carlawn.com/star-bits-vs-torx-bits/>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> You really should do some Googlie searching before guessing. Maybe
> >>>>>> ask the OSH salesman for help?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> We don't know why we bother providing corrections to your postings..
> >>>>>> You seem to enjoy playing the victim and posting erronious
> >>>>>> "information". Maybe if we post similar garbage, you could spend your
> >>>>>> afternoon fixing our mistakes?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> This is also true but the problem is that they were experimentally used in places like the 10 speed Centaur lever bar ring tightener. The Torx end have to be shoved in via pulling the lever rubber cover back and then shoving the Torx in. This of course cut the rubber lever cover and eventually destroyed the cover. And they don't make replacement Centaur lever covers because they only allow you to go up one gear at a time rather than the Record 3 or 4. So replacement covers don't look right.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> For awhile they were trying Torx on everything. They are nice in that they are very difficult to strip which makes home mechanics try harder and over torque everything. I have several sets of Torx drivers now so of course they are rapidly losing popularity. More than half of the tools in my bike tool box are of no use.
> >>>>>
> >>>> It's not 'only Centaur Ergo mounts'.
> >>>> All Ergo mounts and all caliper mounts and it's because the
> >>>> nuts are now aluminum, not steel.
> >>>> Torx is a better design for the application.
> >>>
> >>> It was only the Centaur 10 speed, I don't know about those years of other groups like Record and Chorus which were 11 speeds. But when Centaur converted to 11 speed, Campy went from the Torx 27 to the 5 (??) mm hex again because of the Torx problem of cutting the rubber covers.
> >>>
> >> I just peeked into a new set of Centaur 11 and of Chorus 12.
> >> Yep, both aluminum Torx.
> >>
> >> But hey it's just a sleeved allen nut. You can swap a
> >> chromed steel allen one if you prefer those. This should not
> >> be any big deal.
> >
> > have two sets of new or new middle of last year Centaur and they have 5 mm (I think) hex and not Torx. As I said, while the Torx is superior connector into aluminum, it has the serious problem of cutting the rubber lever hoods. And I haven't figure out a way to prevent this without forcibly flexing the hood out of the way which is almost as bad on the hoods.
> >
> Take a peek at the nice pictures in your manual. Campagnolo
> suggests you slip the tool straight in from the front, under
> the rubber cover.
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

I found using a 6" torx bit made it relatively simple. Much easier than trying to use a torx screwdriver.

On Fri, 14 Jan 2022 09:34:31 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>This is also true but the problem is that they were experimentally used in places like the 10 speed Centaur lever bar ring tightener. The Torx end have to be shoved in via pulling the lever rubber cover back and then shoving the Torx in. This of course cut the rubber lever cover and eventually destroyed the cover. And they don't make replacement Centaur lever covers because they only allow you to go up one gear at a time rather than the Record 3 or 4. So replacement covers don't look right.

I'm not familiar with Campagnolo products. I found this page for what
might be a similar Ergo levers:
<https://www.bikeradar.com/advice/workshop/workshop-how-to-fit-campagnolo-ergo-levers/>
Notice 3 things:
1. They indicate that this is not easy.
2. Levers can use either 5mm Allen or T25 Torx.
3. They suggest and optional torque wrench.

>For awhile they were trying Torx on everything. They are nice in that they are very difficult to strip which makes home mechanics try harder and over torque everything. I have several sets of Torx drivers now so of course they are rapidly losing popularity.

I don't know anything about pulling the lever hood back, but it seems
possible. If you're having problems doing this without destroying the
cover, you might want to ask for help. From what I see in the
instructions, it seems easy enough. If you find yourself destroying
the cover, perhaps a lubricant might help. I have a similar problem
with electrical cable hoods or handlebar grips. I use soap wire pull
lube to lubricate the inside of the hood:
<https://www.homedepot.com/p/Klein-Tools-Premium-Synthetic-Clear-Lubricant-1-Quart-51028/100660159>
<https://www.kleintools.com/catalog/wire-and-cable-pulling-lubricant/premium-synthetic-clear-lubricant-1-quart-0>
Note that I have NOT tried this lubricant on Campagnola lever hoods.

If you find yourself stripping the threads on a matching aluminum part
when tightening a Torx screw, I suggest you purchase and use a torque
wrench. I use a torque wrench on most of the bolts found on emergency
generators, chain saws, small engines, and automobiles. Most
reputable vendors will supply bolt torque specifications with their
documentation.

I stupidly bought a 1/4" and 1/2" drive torque wrenches from Harbor
Freight. Pieces of junk. The 1/2" would not click when the set
torque is exceeded. Neither was even close to being calibrated and
the 1/4" torque wrench would not stay calibrated. Not recommended
unless you don't mind calibrating it every time you use it:
<https://www.harborfreight.com/hand-tools/sockets-ratchets/torque-wrenches/14-in-drive-click-type-torque-wrench-63881.html>
There are bicycle specific torque wrenches available:
<https://www.bikeradar.com/features/the-best-cycling-torque-wrenches/>
If you want to do it right, get a digital torque wrench:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=digital+torque+wrench&tbm=isch>
This looks very tempting:
<https://www.amazon.com/Professional-Electronic-Wrenches-Repairing-Calibrated/dp/B08G4GBPG3/>

Note that the T25 Torx driver bit shown in the BikeRadar article is a
bit odd. It's a 1/4" drive for the torque wrench end, and has some
manner of replaceable Torx bit that I've never seen before. The idea
seems to be to use a narrow shaft to make it easier to fit under the
hood. A common 1/4" drive shaft extension will probably be to thick
on the socket end to fit under the hood. I use these Torx bits:
<https://www.ebay.com/itm/401654760787>
They work but seem to be made of mild steel. The shafts are easily
bent. At 3 inches, they are too short for your project, but longer
bits and shaft extensions are available. You might need a 1/4" drive
to hex drive adapter:
<https://www.ebay.com/itm/143047405863>

You seem concerned about the Torx bit "cutting" the rubber lever hood.
If that's happening, I suggest you either get a better Torx driver set
or file any sharp edges near the tip that might be responsible for the
damage. I looked at the T25 driver in six of my driver sets and
tools. Five of these were nicely deburred and quite dull. However,
one T-25 bit was crudely stamped and had would probably have done some
damage. Doing damage while extracting the bit is improbable because
there's nothing sharp in that direction.

>More than half of the tools in my bike tool box are of no use.

I have the same problem. I keep loaning my tools to friends,
customers and neighbors and then forget to record to whom I loaned the
tool(s).

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Sat, 15 Jan 2022 14:46:04 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Fri, 14 Jan 2022 09:34:31 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
><cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>This is also true but the problem is that they were experimentally used in places like the 10 speed Centaur lever bar ring tightener. The Torx end have to be shoved in via pulling the lever rubber cover back and then shoving the Torx in. This of course cut the rubber lever cover and eventually destroyed the cover. And they don't make replacement Centaur lever covers because they only allow you to go up one gear at a time rather than the Record 3 or 4. So replacement covers don't look right.
>
>I'm not familiar with Campagnolo products. I found this page for what
>might be a similar Ergo levers:
><https://www.bikeradar.com/advice/workshop/workshop-how-to-fit-campagnolo-ergo-levers/>
>Notice 3 things:
>1. They indicate that this is not easy.
>2. Levers can use either 5mm Allen or T25 Torx.
>3. They suggest and optional torque wrench.
>
>>For awhile they were trying Torx on everything. They are nice in that they are very difficult to strip which makes home mechanics try harder and over torque everything. I have several sets of Torx drivers now so of course they are rapidly losing popularity.
>
>I don't know anything about pulling the lever hood back, but it seems
>possible. If you're having problems doing this without destroying the
>cover, you might want to ask for help. From what I see in the
>instructions, it seems easy enough. If you find yourself destroying
>the cover, perhaps a lubricant might help. I have a similar problem
>with electrical cable hoods or handlebar grips. I use soap wire pull
>lube to lubricate the inside of the hood:
><https://www.homedepot.com/p/Klein-Tools-Premium-Synthetic-Clear-Lubricant-1-Quart-51028/100660159>
><https://www.kleintools.com/catalog/wire-and-cable-pulling-lubricant/premium-synthetic-clear-lubricant-1-quart-0>
>Note that I have NOT tried this lubricant on Campagnola lever hoods.
>
>If you find yourself stripping the threads on a matching aluminum part
>when tightening a Torx screw, I suggest you purchase and use a torque
>wrench. I use a torque wrench on most of the bolts found on emergency
>generators, chain saws, small engines, and automobiles. Most
>reputable vendors will supply bolt torque specifications with their
>documentation.
>
>I stupidly bought a 1/4" and 1/2" drive torque wrenches from Harbor
>Freight. Pieces of junk. The 1/2" would not click when the set
>torque is exceeded. Neither was even close to being calibrated and
>the 1/4" torque wrench would not stay calibrated. Not recommended
>unless you don't mind calibrating it every time you use it:
><https://www.harborfreight.com/hand-tools/sockets-ratchets/torque-wrenches/14-in-drive-click-type-torque-wrench-63881.html>
>There are bicycle specific torque wrenches available:
><https://www.bikeradar.com/features/the-best-cycling-torque-wrenches/>
>If you want to do it right, get a digital torque wrench:
><https://www.google.com/search?q=digital+torque+wrench&tbm=isch>
>This looks very tempting:
><https://www.amazon.com/Professional-Electronic-Wrenches-Repairing-Calibrated/dp/B08G4GBPG3/>
>
You can assume that all torque wrenches other then the ones that "bend
in the middle" need to be calibrated. I once worked in an Air Force
shop where one guy was the Base torque wrench calibrator and basically
every wrench that was tested required adjustment. And, of course the
"bend in the middle" wrenches are really only approximate (:-)

I might add that, at least in aircraft maintenance, having all bolts
holding something together tightened to the same tightness is usually
far more important then the exact torque value. What you are doing, in
most cases is actually stretching the bolt, or stud, to a
predetermined clamping force.

Another point is whether the bolt/nut should be dry or lubricated as
it makes a difference in the actual clamping pressure vis-a-vis the
turning force.

>Note that the T25 Torx driver bit shown in the BikeRadar article is a
>bit odd. It's a 1/4" drive for the torque wrench end, and has some
>manner of replaceable Torx bit that I've never seen before. The idea
>seems to be to use a narrow shaft to make it easier to fit under the
>hood. A common 1/4" drive shaft extension will probably be to thick
>on the socket end to fit under the hood. I use these Torx bits:
><https://www.ebay.com/itm/401654760787>
>They work but seem to be made of mild steel. The shafts are easily
>bent. At 3 inches, they are too short for your project, but longer
>bits and shaft extensions are available. You might need a 1/4" drive
>to hex drive adapter:
><https://www.ebay.com/itm/143047405863>
>
>You seem concerned about the Torx bit "cutting" the rubber lever hood.
>If that's happening, I suggest you either get a better Torx driver set
>or file any sharp edges near the tip that might be responsible for the
>damage. I looked at the T25 driver in six of my driver sets and
>tools. Five of these were nicely deburred and quite dull. However,
>one T-25 bit was crudely stamped and had would probably have done some
>damage. Doing damage while extracting the bit is improbable because
>there's nothing sharp in that direction.
>
>>More than half of the tools in my bike tool box are of no use.
>
Buy another tool box... they are cheap. I've got the bike box, the
car/truck box, the handyman - around the house - box and a whole
storage shelf full of tools that I hardly ever use. A tubing bending
took for 1/8th - 1/2" tubing... got one (:-) But of course, I
collected them over about a 50 year period (:-(

>I have the same problem. I keep loaning my tools to friends,
>customers and neighbors and then forget to record to whom I loaned the
>tool(s).
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Saturday, January 15, 2022 at 12:34:08 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> On 1/15/2022 2:03 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Friday, January 14, 2022 at 2:47:32 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> >> On 1/14/2022 3:50 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>> On Friday, January 14, 2022 at 9:50:36 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>> On 1/14/2022 11:34 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>>> On Friday, April 9, 2021 at 1:28:46 PM UTC-7, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>>>> On Fri, 9 Apr 2021 12:50:11 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
> >>>>>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I bough two sets of tools from OSH Hardware and one was inches and the other metric. I bought both because they had inch or metric Allan head tools In the process of working on my bike I discovered that the TORX tools which I assumed to be standardized are in fact different from inch sizes to metric. My 3T headset uses the INCH size Torx screw heads and none of the metric kit sized fit.
> >>>>>> There are no SAE or Metric specific Torx bits. Only Torx bits:
> >>>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torx>
> >>>>>> The same series of Torx drivers is used to drive
> >>>>>> SAE, metric and other thread system fasteners,
> >>>>>> reducing the number of bit sizes required.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> There are also Torx Plus bits:
> >>>>>> A Torx successor, Torx Plus, was introduced around
> >>>>>> 1990 when the original Torx patent was expiring.
> >>>>>> The lobes are more square to allow for higher torque
> >>>>>> and to minimize wear.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Difference between Torx bits and Star bits:
> >>>>>> <https://carlawn.com/star-bits-vs-torx-bits/>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> You really should do some Googlie searching before guessing. Maybe
> >>>>>> ask the OSH salesman for help?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> We don't know why we bother providing corrections to your postings..
> >>>>>> You seem to enjoy playing the victim and posting erronious
> >>>>>> "information". Maybe if we post similar garbage, you could spend your
> >>>>>> afternoon fixing our mistakes?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> This is also true but the problem is that they were experimentally used in places like the 10 speed Centaur lever bar ring tightener. The Torx end have to be shoved in via pulling the lever rubber cover back and then shoving the Torx in. This of course cut the rubber lever cover and eventually destroyed the cover. And they don't make replacement Centaur lever covers because they only allow you to go up one gear at a time rather than the Record 3 or 4. So replacement covers don't look right.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> For awhile they were trying Torx on everything. They are nice in that they are very difficult to strip which makes home mechanics try harder and over torque everything. I have several sets of Torx drivers now so of course they are rapidly losing popularity. More than half of the tools in my bike tool box are of no use.
> >>>>>
> >>>> It's not 'only Centaur Ergo mounts'.
> >>>> All Ergo mounts and all caliper mounts and it's because the
> >>>> nuts are now aluminum, not steel.
> >>>> Torx is a better design for the application.
> >>>
> >>> It was only the Centaur 10 speed, I don't know about those years of other groups like Record and Chorus which were 11 speeds. But when Centaur converted to 11 speed, Campy went from the Torx 27 to the 5 (??) mm hex again because of the Torx problem of cutting the rubber covers.
> >>>
> >> I just peeked into a new set of Centaur 11 and of Chorus 12.
> >> Yep, both aluminum Torx.
> >>
> >> But hey it's just a sleeved allen nut. You can swap a
> >> chromed steel allen one if you prefer those. This should not
> >> be any big deal.
> >
> > have two sets of new or new middle of last year Centaur and they have 5 mm (I think) hex and not Torx. As I said, while the Torx is superior connector into aluminum, it has the serious problem of cutting the rubber lever hoods. And I haven't figure out a way to prevent this without forcibly flexing the hood out of the way which is almost as bad on the hoods.
> >
> Take a peek at the nice pictures in your manual. Campagnolo
> suggests you slip the tool straight in from the front, under
> the rubber cover.

Please Andrew, I know very well how to use tools and have been doing so since the I was 5. It Campy intended a sharp object to be slid beneath a sensitive material don't you think that they could have made a deeper groove? I didn't cut ONE hood but five before I resorted to stretching the hoods out of the way.

On Saturday, January 15, 2022 at 1:32:34 PM UTC-8, TCL wrote:
> On Saturday, January 15, 2022 at 2:34:08 PM UTC-6, AMuzi wrote:
> > On 1/15/2022 2:03 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > On Friday, January 14, 2022 at 2:47:32 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> > >> On 1/14/2022 3:50 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > >>> On Friday, January 14, 2022 at 9:50:36 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> > >>>> On 1/14/2022 11:34 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > >>>>> On Friday, April 9, 2021 at 1:28:46 PM UTC-7, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >>>>>> On Fri, 9 Apr 2021 12:50:11 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
> > >>>>>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> I bough two sets of tools from OSH Hardware and one was inches and the other metric. I bought both because they had inch or metric Allan head tools In the process of working on my bike I discovered that the TORX tools which I assumed to be standardized are in fact different from inch sizes to metric. My 3T headset uses the INCH size Torx screw heads and none of the metric kit sized fit.
> > >>>>>> There are no SAE or Metric specific Torx bits. Only Torx bits:
> > >>>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torx>
> > >>>>>> The same series of Torx drivers is used to drive
> > >>>>>> SAE, metric and other thread system fasteners,
> > >>>>>> reducing the number of bit sizes required.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> There are also Torx Plus bits:
> > >>>>>> A Torx successor, Torx Plus, was introduced around
> > >>>>>> 1990 when the original Torx patent was expiring.
> > >>>>>> The lobes are more square to allow for higher torque
> > >>>>>> and to minimize wear.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Difference between Torx bits and Star bits:
> > >>>>>> <https://carlawn.com/star-bits-vs-torx-bits/>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> You really should do some Googlie searching before guessing. Maybe
> > >>>>>> ask the OSH salesman for help?
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> We don't know why we bother providing corrections to your postings.
> > >>>>>> You seem to enjoy playing the victim and posting erronious
> > >>>>>> "information". Maybe if we post similar garbage, you could spend your
> > >>>>>> afternoon fixing our mistakes?
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> This is also true but the problem is that they were experimentally used in places like the 10 speed Centaur lever bar ring tightener. The Torx end have to be shoved in via pulling the lever rubber cover back and then shoving the Torx in. This of course cut the rubber lever cover and eventually destroyed the cover. And they don't make replacement Centaur lever covers because they only allow you to go up one gear at a time rather than the Record 3 or 4. So replacement covers don't look right.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> For awhile they were trying Torx on everything. They are nice in that they are very difficult to strip which makes home mechanics try harder and over torque everything. I have several sets of Torx drivers now so of course they are rapidly losing popularity. More than half of the tools in my bike tool box are of no use.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>> It's not 'only Centaur Ergo mounts'.
> > >>>> All Ergo mounts and all caliper mounts and it's because the
> > >>>> nuts are now aluminum, not steel.
> > >>>> Torx is a better design for the application.
> > >>>
> > >>> It was only the Centaur 10 speed, I don't know about those years of other groups like Record and Chorus which were 11 speeds. But when Centaur converted to 11 speed, Campy went from the Torx 27 to the 5 (??) mm hex again because of the Torx problem of cutting the rubber covers.
> > >>>
> > >> I just peeked into a new set of Centaur 11 and of Chorus 12.
> > >> Yep, both aluminum Torx.
> > >>
> > >> But hey it's just a sleeved allen nut. You can swap a
> > >> chromed steel allen one if you prefer those. This should not
> > >> be any big deal.
> > >
> > > have two sets of new or new middle of last year Centaur and they have 5 mm (I think) hex and not Torx. As I said, while the Torx is superior connector into aluminum, it has the serious problem of cutting the rubber lever hoods. And I haven't figure out a way to prevent this without forcibly flexing the hood out of the way which is almost as bad on the hoods.
> > >
> > Take a peek at the nice pictures in your manual. Campagnolo
> > suggests you slip the tool straight in from the front, under
> > the rubber cover.
> > --
> I found using a 6" torx bit made it relatively simple. Much easier than trying to use a torx screwdriver.

Perhaps you suggested this before because I bought a set and had no better luck than with the screwdriver. I am presently with three full sets of Torx and the only use I've found for them recently is the two new generation Campy 10 speed levers and a couple of stems I've bought that use the Torx on 4 mm face screws. While it is a good idea, my tool box is filled with tools for good ideas that never caught on.

On 1/16/2022 9:47 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Saturday, January 15, 2022 at 12:34:08 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 1/15/2022 2:03 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> On Friday, January 14, 2022 at 2:47:32 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 1/14/2022 3:50 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>> On Friday, January 14, 2022 at 9:50:36 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>> On 1/14/2022 11:34 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>> On Friday, April 9, 2021 at 1:28:46 PM UTC-7, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Fri, 9 Apr 2021 12:50:11 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
>>>>>>>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I bough two sets of tools from OSH Hardware and one was inches and the other metric. I bought both because they had inch or metric Allan head tools In the process of working on my bike I discovered that the TORX tools which I assumed to be standardized are in fact different from inch sizes to metric. My 3T headset uses the INCH size Torx screw heads and none of the metric kit sized fit.
>>>>>>>> There are no SAE or Metric specific Torx bits. Only Torx bits:
>>>>>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torx>
>>>>>>>> The same series of Torx drivers is used to drive
>>>>>>>> SAE, metric and other thread system fasteners,
>>>>>>>> reducing the number of bit sizes required.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There are also Torx Plus bits:
>>>>>>>> A Torx successor, Torx Plus, was introduced around
>>>>>>>> 1990 when the original Torx patent was expiring.
>>>>>>>> The lobes are more square to allow for higher torque
>>>>>>>> and to minimize wear.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Difference between Torx bits and Star bits:
>>>>>>>> <https://carlawn.com/star-bits-vs-torx-bits/>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You really should do some Googlie searching before guessing. Maybe
>>>>>>>> ask the OSH salesman for help?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> We don't know why we bother providing corrections to your postings.
>>>>>>>> You seem to enjoy playing the victim and posting erronious
>>>>>>>> "information". Maybe if we post similar garbage, you could spend your
>>>>>>>> afternoon fixing our mistakes?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This is also true but the problem is that they were experimentally used in places like the 10 speed Centaur lever bar ring tightener. The Torx end have to be shoved in via pulling the lever rubber cover back and then shoving the Torx in. This of course cut the rubber lever cover and eventually destroyed the cover. And they don't make replacement Centaur lever covers because they only allow you to go up one gear at a time rather than the Record 3 or 4. So replacement covers don't look right.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> For awhile they were trying Torx on everything. They are nice in that they are very difficult to strip which makes home mechanics try harder and over torque everything. I have several sets of Torx drivers now so of course they are rapidly losing popularity. More than half of the tools in my bike tool box are of no use.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's not 'only Centaur Ergo mounts'.
>>>>>> All Ergo mounts and all caliper mounts and it's because the
>>>>>> nuts are now aluminum, not steel.
>>>>>> Torx is a better design for the application.
>>>>>
>>>>> It was only the Centaur 10 speed, I don't know about those years of other groups like Record and Chorus which were 11 speeds. But when Centaur converted to 11 speed, Campy went from the Torx 27 to the 5 (??) mm hex again because of the Torx problem of cutting the rubber covers.
>>>>>
>>>> I just peeked into a new set of Centaur 11 and of Chorus 12.
>>>> Yep, both aluminum Torx.
>>>>
>>>> But hey it's just a sleeved allen nut. You can swap a
>>>> chromed steel allen one if you prefer those. This should not
>>>> be any big deal.
>>>
>>> have two sets of new or new middle of last year Centaur and they have 5 mm (I think) hex and not Torx. As I said, while the Torx is superior connector into aluminum, it has the serious problem of cutting the rubber lever hoods. And I haven't figure out a way to prevent this without forcibly flexing the hood out of the way which is almost as bad on the hoods.
>>>
>> Take a peek at the nice pictures in your manual. Campagnolo
>> suggests you slip the tool straight in from the front, under
>> the rubber cover.
>
> Please Andrew, I know very well how to use tools and have been doing so since the I was 5. It Campy intended a sharp object to be slid beneath a sensitive material don't you think that they could have made a deeper groove? I didn't cut ONE hood but five before I resorted to stretching the hoods out of the way.
>

I lift the hood with a screwdriver handle 3mm allen 100mm
long and slide the Torx driver under the rubber cover. We
find these nice SnapOn T-handle Torx very handy:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/er11b.jpg

(not a recommended use for that tool of course)

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Sunday, January 16, 2022 at 8:19:39 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> On 1/16/2022 9:47 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Saturday, January 15, 2022 at 12:34:08 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> >> On 1/15/2022 2:03 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>> On Friday, January 14, 2022 at 2:47:32 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>> On 1/14/2022 3:50 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>>> On Friday, January 14, 2022 at 9:50:36 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>>>> On 1/14/2022 11:34 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Friday, April 9, 2021 at 1:28:46 PM UTC-7, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On Fri, 9 Apr 2021 12:50:11 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
> >>>>>>>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> I bough two sets of tools from OSH Hardware and one was inches and the other metric. I bought both because they had inch or metric Allan head tools In the process of working on my bike I discovered that the TORX tools which I assumed to be standardized are in fact different from inch sizes to metric. My 3T headset uses the INCH size Torx screw heads and none of the metric kit sized fit.
> >>>>>>>> There are no SAE or Metric specific Torx bits. Only Torx bits:
> >>>>>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torx>
> >>>>>>>> The same series of Torx drivers is used to drive
> >>>>>>>> SAE, metric and other thread system fasteners,
> >>>>>>>> reducing the number of bit sizes required.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> There are also Torx Plus bits:
> >>>>>>>> A Torx successor, Torx Plus, was introduced around
> >>>>>>>> 1990 when the original Torx patent was expiring.
> >>>>>>>> The lobes are more square to allow for higher torque
> >>>>>>>> and to minimize wear.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Difference between Torx bits and Star bits:
> >>>>>>>> <https://carlawn.com/star-bits-vs-torx-bits/>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> You really should do some Googlie searching before guessing. Maybe
> >>>>>>>> ask the OSH salesman for help?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> We don't know why we bother providing corrections to your postings.
> >>>>>>>> You seem to enjoy playing the victim and posting erronious
> >>>>>>>> "information". Maybe if we post similar garbage, you could spend your
> >>>>>>>> afternoon fixing our mistakes?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> This is also true but the problem is that they were experimentally used in places like the 10 speed Centaur lever bar ring tightener. The Torx end have to be shoved in via pulling the lever rubber cover back and then shoving the Torx in. This of course cut the rubber lever cover and eventually destroyed the cover. And they don't make replacement Centaur lever covers because they only allow you to go up one gear at a time rather than the Record 3 or 4. So replacement covers don't look right.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> For awhile they were trying Torx on everything. They are nice in that they are very difficult to strip which makes home mechanics try harder and over torque everything. I have several sets of Torx drivers now so of course they are rapidly losing popularity. More than half of the tools in my bike tool box are of no use.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> It's not 'only Centaur Ergo mounts'.
> >>>>>> All Ergo mounts and all caliper mounts and it's because the
> >>>>>> nuts are now aluminum, not steel.
> >>>>>> Torx is a better design for the application.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> It was only the Centaur 10 speed, I don't know about those years of other groups like Record and Chorus which were 11 speeds. But when Centaur converted to 11 speed, Campy went from the Torx 27 to the 5 (??) mm hex again because of the Torx problem of cutting the rubber covers.
> >>>>>
> >>>> I just peeked into a new set of Centaur 11 and of Chorus 12.
> >>>> Yep, both aluminum Torx.
> >>>>
> >>>> But hey it's just a sleeved allen nut. You can swap a
> >>>> chromed steel allen one if you prefer those. This should not
> >>>> be any big deal.
> >>>
> >>> have two sets of new or new middle of last year Centaur and they have 5 mm (I think) hex and not Torx. As I said, while the Torx is superior connector into aluminum, it has the serious problem of cutting the rubber lever hoods. And I haven't figure out a way to prevent this without forcibly flexing the hood out of the way which is almost as bad on the hoods.
> >>>
> >> Take a peek at the nice pictures in your manual. Campagnolo
> >> suggests you slip the tool straight in from the front, under
> >> the rubber cover.
> >
> > Please Andrew, I know very well how to use tools and have been doing so since the I was 5. It Campy intended a sharp object to be slid beneath a sensitive material don't you think that they could have made a deeper groove? I didn't cut ONE hood but five before I resorted to stretching the hoods out of the way.
> >
> I lift the hood with a screwdriver handle 3mm allen 100mm
> long and slide the Torx driver under the rubber cover. We
> find these nice SnapOn T-handle Torx very handy:
> http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/er11b.jpg
>
> (not a recommended use for that tool of course)

That is a very good suggestion and one that hadn't occurred to me. I'll use that method from now on.