On 1/23/2022 6:58 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>
> It's true the classification system for bikes is splintered
> tremendously. It seems one must now choose precisely the proper bike for
> riding roads, or racing on roads, or dirt, or small-sized gravel, or
> larger gravel, or wooded trails, or fire roads, or uphill, or downhill...
>
> How many here remember Jobst's excursions into extreme terrain on a
> (then) standard bike?
>
> How many here have done the same?
>
> Then there were these guys:
> https://www.instagram.com/rsfarchive/?hl=en
> back when men were men!  ;-)

And by coincidence, an article (or perhaps advertisment) on the Rough
Stuff Fellowship popped up today.

https://mailchi.mp/velo-orange.com/pioletsandcrazybarsareback-230634?e=e7ae9e0332

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Wed, 26 Jan 2022 13:47:19 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 1/23/2022 6:58 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>
>> It's true the classification system for bikes is splintered
>> tremendously. It seems one must now choose precisely the proper bike for
>> riding roads, or racing on roads, or dirt, or small-sized gravel, or
>> larger gravel, or wooded trails, or fire roads, or uphill, or downhill...
>>
>> How many here remember Jobst's excursions into extreme terrain on a
>> (then) standard bike?
>>
>> How many here have done the same?
>>
>> Then there were these guys:
>> https://www.instagram.com/rsfarchive/?hl=en
>> back when men were men!  ;-)
>
>And by coincidence, an article (or perhaps advertisment) on the Rough
>Stuff Fellowship popped up today.
>
>https://mailchi.mp/velo-orange.com/pioletsandcrazybarsareback-230634?e=e7ae9e0332

Out of curiosity, how exactly did Jobst die? I remember a report of
him being in some sort of bicycle cash and then an article by someone
who visited him in the hospital and then Bingo! he was dead.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Wednesday, January 26, 2022 at 5:36:42 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
> On Wed, 26 Jan 2022 13:47:19 -0500, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>
> >On 1/23/2022 6:58 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>
> >> It's true the classification system for bikes is splintered
> >> tremendously. It seems one must now choose precisely the proper bike for
> >> riding roads, or racing on roads, or dirt, or small-sized gravel, or
> >> larger gravel, or wooded trails, or fire roads, or uphill, or downhill...
> >>
> >> How many here remember Jobst's excursions into extreme terrain on a
> >> (then) standard bike?
> >>
> >> How many here have done the same?
> >>
> >> Then there were these guys:
> >> https://www.instagram.com/rsfarchive/?hl=en
> >> back when men were men! ;-)
> >
> >And by coincidence, an article (or perhaps advertisment) on the Rough
> >Stuff Fellowship popped up today.
> >
> >https://mailchi.mp/velo-orange.com/pioletsandcrazybarsareback-230634?e=e7ae9e0332
> Out of curiosity, how exactly did Jobst die? I remember a report of
> him being in some sort of bicycle cash and then an article by someone
> who visited him in the hospital and then Bingo! he was dead.

My understanding was a bad bicycle crash broke his femur badly. Probably as a result of that he suffered
a stroke. But I'm open to correction.

- Frank Krygowski

On 1/26/2022 9:16 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On Wednesday, January 26, 2022 at 5:36:42 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
>> On Wed, 26 Jan 2022 13:47:19 -0500, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>
>>> On 1/23/2022 6:58 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>
>>>> It's true the classification system for bikes is splintered
>>>> tremendously. It seems one must now choose precisely the proper bike for
>>>> riding roads, or racing on roads, or dirt, or small-sized gravel, or
>>>> larger gravel, or wooded trails, or fire roads, or uphill, or downhill...
>>>>
>>>> How many here remember Jobst's excursions into extreme terrain on a
>>>> (then) standard bike?
>>>>
>>>> How many here have done the same?
>>>>
>>>> Then there were these guys:
>>>> https://www.instagram.com/rsfarchive/?hl=en
>>>> back when men were men! ;-)
>>>
>>> And by coincidence, an article (or perhaps advertisment) on the Rough
>>> Stuff Fellowship popped up today.
>>>
>>> https://mailchi.mp/velo-orange.com/pioletsandcrazybarsareback-230634?e=e7ae9e0332
>> Out of curiosity, how exactly did Jobst die? I remember a report of
>> him being in some sort of bicycle cash and then an article by someone
>> who visited him in the hospital and then Bingo! he was dead.
>
> My understanding was a bad bicycle crash broke his femur badly. Probably as a result of that he suffered
> a stroke. But I'm open to correction.
>
> - Frank Krygowski
>

Yes, that's right.
My brother the anaesthesiologist says it was likely an
avoidable situation but I don't know.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Thursday, January 27, 2022 at 6:28:09 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> On 1/26/2022 9:16 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On Wednesday, January 26, 2022 at 5:36:42 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
> >> On Wed, 26 Jan 2022 13:47:19 -0500, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>
> >>> On 1/23/2022 6:58 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> It's true the classification system for bikes is splintered
> >>>> tremendously. It seems one must now choose precisely the proper bike for
> >>>> riding roads, or racing on roads, or dirt, or small-sized gravel, or
> >>>> larger gravel, or wooded trails, or fire roads, or uphill, or downhill...
> >>>>
> >>>> How many here remember Jobst's excursions into extreme terrain on a
> >>>> (then) standard bike?
> >>>>
> >>>> How many here have done the same?
> >>>>
> >>>> Then there were these guys:
> >>>> https://www.instagram.com/rsfarchive/?hl=en
> >>>> back when men were men! ;-)
> >>>
> >>> And by coincidence, an article (or perhaps advertisment) on the Rough
> >>> Stuff Fellowship popped up today.
> >>>
> >>> https://mailchi.mp/velo-orange.com/pioletsandcrazybarsareback-230634?e=e7ae9e0332
> >> Out of curiosity, how exactly did Jobst die? I remember a report of
> >> him being in some sort of bicycle cash and then an article by someone
> >> who visited him in the hospital and then Bingo! he was dead.
> >
> > My understanding was a bad bicycle crash broke his femur badly. Probably as a result of that he suffered
> > a stroke. But I'm open to correction.
> >
> > - Frank Krygowski
> >
> Yes, that's right.
> My brother the anaesthesiologist says it was likely an
> avoidable situation but I don't know.

I don't know any of the details. By that time Jobst and I were on very bad terms after my criticism of his dangerous riding practices with a group. As an engineer he was a very good one. As I remember he worked for Hewlett-Packard and was their chief mechanical engineer.

On Sunday, January 23, 2022 at 6:58:59 PM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 1/23/2022 6:42 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> > Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >> On 1/23/2022 11:46 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>> On Saturday, January 22, 2022 at 11:24:21 PM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
> >>>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>> On Saturday, January 22, 2022 at 4:50:27 PM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
> >>>>>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I just looked at a couple of $10,000+ 29ers and they did not list the
> >>>>>>> weight. This is almost a guarantee that they are 30+ lbs and not 20+
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> Very few bike companies list weight, to be honest.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Giant Anthem is claimed 24/25lb depending on size model year and so on.
> >>>>>> Fairly stock normal XC bike.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> https://www.bikeradar.com/reviews/bikes/mountain-bikes/full-suspension-mountain-bikes/giant-anthem-advanced-pro-29-1-review/
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Link but plenty more if one looks, and giant are fairly conservative so I’d
> >>>>>> expect some others to be lighter.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Roger Merriman.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I don't have any idea where you got those weights. That is so
> >>>>> extraordinarily light that everyone would want to brag about it and yet,
> >>>>> in NONE of the advertisements I was able to find on line and in Ebay were
> >>>>> any weights quoted. That is a dead giveaway that they don't want anyone
> >>>>> to know the true weights.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Now I suspect that some of the latest hardtails could be that light if
> >>>>> they were running rim brakes and light tires. But not a full suspension
> >>>>> bike with disks. I am saying this as a person that had several very top
> >>>>> of the line full suspension bikes which is why I returned to CX bikes.
> >>>>>
> >>>> That’s why I provided a link. Weight is listed for a size large.
> >>>
> >>> Roger, I have a feeling that that is the Giant claimed weight and not
> >>> actually measured weight.
> >>
> >> Here's one at 27 pounds.
> >>
> >> https://www.bicycling.com/bikes-gear/mountain-bike/a22658943/giant-trance-29-review/
> >>
> >>
> > To be fair that Trance is a trail MTB that is somewhat XC ie has less
> > Travel and so forth. But even so I suspect that’s with out pedals and the
> > Trance x which is the full trail beastie to be heavier, as a more capable
> > longer travel beastie.
> It's true the classification system for bikes is splintered
> tremendously. It seems one must now choose precisely the proper bike for
> riding roads, or racing on roads, or dirt, or small-sized gravel, or
> larger gravel, or wooded trails, or fire roads, or uphill, or downhill...
>
> How many here remember Jobst's excursions into extreme terrain on a
> (then) standard bike?
>
> How many here have done the same?
>
> Then there were these guys:
> https://www.instagram.com/rsfarchive/?hl=en
> back when men were men! ;-)
>

pffft...pikers. Now _these_ were _real_ men, CX on a fixed-gear!

http://www.blackbirdsf.org/cx/images/1923_champfr.jpg

On Thursday, January 27, 2022 at 12:48:57 p.m. UTC-5, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, January 23, 2022 at 6:58:59 PM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 1/23/2022 6:42 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> > > Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> > >> On 1/23/2022 11:46 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > >>> On Saturday, January 22, 2022 at 11:24:21 PM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
> > >>>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>>>> On Saturday, January 22, 2022 at 4:50:27 PM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
> > >>>>>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> I just looked at a couple of $10,000+ 29ers and they did not list the
> > >>>>>>> weight. This is almost a guarantee that they are 30+ lbs and not 20+
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Very few bike companies list weight, to be honest.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Giant Anthem is claimed 24/25lb depending on size model year and so on.
> > >>>>>> Fairly stock normal XC bike.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> https://www.bikeradar.com/reviews/bikes/mountain-bikes/full-suspension-mountain-bikes/giant-anthem-advanced-pro-29-1-review/
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Link but plenty more if one looks, and giant are fairly conservative so I’d
> > >>>>>> expect some others to be lighter.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Roger Merriman.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> I don't have any idea where you got those weights. That is so
> > >>>>> extraordinarily light that everyone would want to brag about it and yet,
> > >>>>> in NONE of the advertisements I was able to find on line and in Ebay were
> > >>>>> any weights quoted. That is a dead giveaway that they don't want anyone
> > >>>>> to know the true weights.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Now I suspect that some of the latest hardtails could be that light if
> > >>>>> they were running rim brakes and light tires. But not a full suspension
> > >>>>> bike with disks. I am saying this as a person that had several very top
> > >>>>> of the line full suspension bikes which is why I returned to CX bikes.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>> That’s why I provided a link. Weight is listed for a size large.
> > >>>
> > >>> Roger, I have a feeling that that is the Giant claimed weight and not
> > >>> actually measured weight.
> > >>
> > >> Here's one at 27 pounds.
> > >>
> > >> https://www.bicycling.com/bikes-gear/mountain-bike/a22658943/giant-trance-29-review/
> > >>
> > >>
> > > To be fair that Trance is a trail MTB that is somewhat XC ie has less
> > > Travel and so forth. But even so I suspect that’s with out pedals and the
> > > Trance x which is the full trail beastie to be heavier, as a more capable
> > > longer travel beastie.
> > It's true the classification system for bikes is splintered
> > tremendously. It seems one must now choose precisely the proper bike for
> > riding roads, or racing on roads, or dirt, or small-sized gravel, or
> > larger gravel, or wooded trails, or fire roads, or uphill, or downhill....
> >
> > How many here remember Jobst's excursions into extreme terrain on a
> > (then) standard bike?
> >
> > How many here have done the same?
> >
> > Then there were these guys:
> > https://www.instagram.com/rsfarchive/?hl=en
> > back when men were men! ;-)
> >
> pffft...pikers. Now _these_ were _real_ men, CX on a fixed-gear!
>
> http://www.blackbirdsf.org/cx/images/1923_champfr.jpg

Can a modern bicycle of certain type, such as a mtb, actually be ridden on such stuff?

Cheers

Sir Ridesalot <i_am_cycle_pathic@yahoo.ca> wrote:
> On Thursday, January 27, 2022 at 12:48:57 p.m. UTC-5, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> On Sunday, January 23, 2022 at 6:58:59 PM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 1/23/2022 6:42 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>> On 1/23/2022 11:46 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>> On Saturday, January 22, 2022 at 11:24:21 PM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>>>>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Saturday, January 22, 2022 at 4:50:27 PM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I just looked at a couple of $10,000+ 29ers and they did not list the
>>>>>>>>>> weight. This is almost a guarantee that they are 30+ lbs and not 20+
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Very few bike companies list weight, to be honest.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Giant Anthem is claimed 24/25lb depending on size model year and so on.
>>>>>>>>> Fairly stock normal XC bike.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://www.bikeradar.com/reviews/bikes/mountain-bikes/full-suspension-mountain-bikes/giant-anthem-advanced-pro-29-1-review/
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Link but plenty more if one looks, and giant are fairly conservative so I’d
>>>>>>>>> expect some others to be lighter.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Roger Merriman.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I don't have any idea where you got those weights. That is so
>>>>>>>> extraordinarily light that everyone would want to brag about it and yet,
>>>>>>>> in NONE of the advertisements I was able to find on line and in Ebay were
>>>>>>>> any weights quoted. That is a dead giveaway that they don't want anyone
>>>>>>>> to know the true weights.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Now I suspect that some of the latest hardtails could be that light if
>>>>>>>> they were running rim brakes and light tires. But not a full suspension
>>>>>>>> bike with disks. I am saying this as a person that had several very top
>>>>>>>> of the line full suspension bikes which is why I returned to CX bikes.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That’s why I provided a link. Weight is listed for a size large.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Roger, I have a feeling that that is the Giant claimed weight and not
>>>>>> actually measured weight.
>>>>>
>>>>> Here's one at 27 pounds.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.bicycling.com/bikes-gear/mountain-bike/a22658943/giant-trance-29-review/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> To be fair that Trance is a trail MTB that is somewhat XC ie has less
>>>> Travel and so forth. But even so I suspect that’s with out pedals and the
>>>> Trance x which is the full trail beastie to be heavier, as a more capable
>>>> longer travel beastie.
>>> It's true the classification system for bikes is splintered
>>> tremendously. It seems one must now choose precisely the proper bike for
>>> riding roads, or racing on roads, or dirt, or small-sized gravel, or
>>> larger gravel, or wooded trails, or fire roads, or uphill, or downhill...
>>>
>>> How many here remember Jobst's excursions into extreme terrain on a
>>> (then) standard bike?
>>>
>>> How many here have done the same?
>>>
>>> Then there were these guys:
>>> https://www.instagram.com/rsfarchive/?hl=en
>>> back when men were men! ;-)
>>>
>> pffft...pikers. Now _these_ were _real_ men, CX on a fixed-gear!
>>
>> http://www.blackbirdsf.org/cx/images/1923_champfr.jpg
>
> Can a modern bicycle of certain type, such as a mtb, actually be ridden on such stuff?
>
> Cheers
>
A road bike could bike if your a trials rider! Ie not a mortal!

The lower section probably yes, can see some of the riders, wheeling or
about to.

But it’s a fairly poor quality photo so difficult to be sure, and arguably
for most it’s still likely to be faster on foot!

Roger Merriman

On Thursday, January 27, 2022 at 2:09:13 PM UTC-5, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
> On Thursday, January 27, 2022 at 12:48:57 p.m. UTC-5, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > On Sunday, January 23, 2022 at 6:58:59 PM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > > On 1/23/2022 6:42 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> > > > Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> > > >> On 1/23/2022 11:46 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > >>> On Saturday, January 22, 2022 at 11:24:21 PM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
> > > >>>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >>>>> On Saturday, January 22, 2022 at 4:50:27 PM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
> > > >>>>>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> I just looked at a couple of $10,000+ 29ers and they did not list the
> > > >>>>>>> weight. This is almost a guarantee that they are 30+ lbs and not 20+
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> Very few bike companies list weight, to be honest.
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> Giant Anthem is claimed 24/25lb depending on size model year and so on.
> > > >>>>>> Fairly stock normal XC bike.
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> https://www.bikeradar.com/reviews/bikes/mountain-bikes/full-suspension-mountain-bikes/giant-anthem-advanced-pro-29-1-review/
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> Link but plenty more if one looks, and giant are fairly conservative so I’d
> > > >>>>>> expect some others to be lighter.
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> Roger Merriman.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> I don't have any idea where you got those weights. That is so
> > > >>>>> extraordinarily light that everyone would want to brag about it and yet,
> > > >>>>> in NONE of the advertisements I was able to find on line and in Ebay were
> > > >>>>> any weights quoted. That is a dead giveaway that they don't want anyone
> > > >>>>> to know the true weights.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> Now I suspect that some of the latest hardtails could be that light if
> > > >>>>> they were running rim brakes and light tires. But not a full suspension
> > > >>>>> bike with disks. I am saying this as a person that had several very top
> > > >>>>> of the line full suspension bikes which is why I returned to CX bikes.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>> That’s why I provided a link. Weight is listed for a size large.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Roger, I have a feeling that that is the Giant claimed weight and not
> > > >>> actually measured weight.
> > > >>
> > > >> Here's one at 27 pounds.
> > > >>
> > > >> https://www.bicycling.com/bikes-gear/mountain-bike/a22658943/giant-trance-29-review/
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > > To be fair that Trance is a trail MTB that is somewhat XC ie has less
> > > > Travel and so forth. But even so I suspect that’s with out pedals and the
> > > > Trance x which is the full trail beastie to be heavier, as a more capable
> > > > longer travel beastie.
> > > It's true the classification system for bikes is splintered
> > > tremendously. It seems one must now choose precisely the proper bike for
> > > riding roads, or racing on roads, or dirt, or small-sized gravel, or
> > > larger gravel, or wooded trails, or fire roads, or uphill, or downhill...
> > >
> > > How many here remember Jobst's excursions into extreme terrain on a
> > > (then) standard bike?
> > >
> > > How many here have done the same?
> > >
> > > Then there were these guys:
> > > https://www.instagram.com/rsfarchive/?hl=en
> > > back when men were men! ;-)
> > >
> > pffft...pikers. Now _these_ were _real_ men, CX on a fixed-gear!
> >
> > http://www.blackbirdsf.org/cx/images/1923_champfr.jpg
> Can a modern bicycle of certain type, such as a mtb, actually be ridden on such stuff?
>
> Cheers

No doubt - Chris Akrigg does stuff like that all the time https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LB--HCRr8iU

On 1/27/2022 1:09 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
> On Thursday, January 27, 2022 at 12:48:57 p.m. UTC-5, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> On Sunday, January 23, 2022 at 6:58:59 PM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 1/23/2022 6:42 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>> On 1/23/2022 11:46 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>> On Saturday, January 22, 2022 at 11:24:21 PM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>>>>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Saturday, January 22, 2022 at 4:50:27 PM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I just looked at a couple of $10,000+ 29ers and they did not list the
>>>>>>>>>> weight. This is almost a guarantee that they are 30+ lbs and not 20+
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Very few bike companies list weight, to be honest.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Giant Anthem is claimed 24/25lb depending on size model year and so on.
>>>>>>>>> Fairly stock normal XC bike.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://www.bikeradar.com/reviews/bikes/mountain-bikes/full-suspension-mountain-bikes/giant-anthem-advanced-pro-29-1-review/
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Link but plenty more if one looks, and giant are fairly conservative so I’d
>>>>>>>>> expect some others to be lighter.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Roger Merriman.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I don't have any idea where you got those weights. That is so
>>>>>>>> extraordinarily light that everyone would want to brag about it and yet,
>>>>>>>> in NONE of the advertisements I was able to find on line and in Ebay were
>>>>>>>> any weights quoted. That is a dead giveaway that they don't want anyone
>>>>>>>> to know the true weights.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Now I suspect that some of the latest hardtails could be that light if
>>>>>>>> they were running rim brakes and light tires. But not a full suspension
>>>>>>>> bike with disks. I am saying this as a person that had several very top
>>>>>>>> of the line full suspension bikes which is why I returned to CX bikes.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That’s why I provided a link. Weight is listed for a size large.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Roger, I have a feeling that that is the Giant claimed weight and not
>>>>>> actually measured weight.
>>>>>
>>>>> Here's one at 27 pounds.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.bicycling.com/bikes-gear/mountain-bike/a22658943/giant-trance-29-review/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> To be fair that Trance is a trail MTB that is somewhat XC ie has less
>>>> Travel and so forth. But even so I suspect that’s with out pedals and the
>>>> Trance x which is the full trail beastie to be heavier, as a more capable
>>>> longer travel beastie.
>>> It's true the classification system for bikes is splintered
>>> tremendously. It seems one must now choose precisely the proper bike for
>>> riding roads, or racing on roads, or dirt, or small-sized gravel, or
>>> larger gravel, or wooded trails, or fire roads, or uphill, or downhill...
>>>
>>> How many here remember Jobst's excursions into extreme terrain on a
>>> (then) standard bike?
>>>
>>> How many here have done the same?
>>>
>>> Then there were these guys:
>>> https://www.instagram.com/rsfarchive/?hl=en
>>> back when men were men! ;-)
>>>
>> pffft...pikers. Now _these_ were _real_ men, CX on a fixed-gear!
>>
>> http://www.blackbirdsf.org/cx/images/1923_champfr.jpg
>
> Can a modern bicycle of certain type, such as a mtb, actually be ridden on such stuff?
>
> Cheers
>

Define 'ride' !
Those gents are carrying bicycles. An MTB would be
functionally the same for the purpose and a modern MTB would
actually be lighter to carry.

Still and all, as Jobst noted often, it's more a pilot
attitude problem than an equipment problem.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 09:48:55 -0800 (PST), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
<funkmasterxx@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On Sunday, January 23, 2022 at 6:58:59 PM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 1/23/2022 6:42 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> > Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> >> On 1/23/2022 11:46 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> >>> On Saturday, January 22, 2022 at 11:24:21 PM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> >>>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>>> On Saturday, January 22, 2022 at 4:50:27 PM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> >>>>>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> I just looked at a couple of $10,000+ 29ers and they did not list the
>> >>>>>>> weight. This is almost a guarantee that they are 30+ lbs and not 20+
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Very few bike companies list weight, to be honest.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Giant Anthem is claimed 24/25lb depending on size model year and so on.
>> >>>>>> Fairly stock normal XC bike.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> https://www.bikeradar.com/reviews/bikes/mountain-bikes/full-suspension-mountain-bikes/giant-anthem-advanced-pro-29-1-review/
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Link but plenty more if one looks, and giant are fairly conservative so I’d
>> >>>>>> expect some others to be lighter.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Roger Merriman.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> I don't have any idea where you got those weights. That is so
>> >>>>> extraordinarily light that everyone would want to brag about it and yet,
>> >>>>> in NONE of the advertisements I was able to find on line and in Ebay were
>> >>>>> any weights quoted. That is a dead giveaway that they don't want anyone
>> >>>>> to know the true weights.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Now I suspect that some of the latest hardtails could be that light if
>> >>>>> they were running rim brakes and light tires. But not a full suspension
>> >>>>> bike with disks. I am saying this as a person that had several very top
>> >>>>> of the line full suspension bikes which is why I returned to CX bikes.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>> That’s why I provided a link. Weight is listed for a size large.
>> >>>
>> >>> Roger, I have a feeling that that is the Giant claimed weight and not
>> >>> actually measured weight.
>> >>
>> >> Here's one at 27 pounds.
>> >>
>> >> https://www.bicycling.com/bikes-gear/mountain-bike/a22658943/giant-trance-29-review/
>> >>
>> >>
>> > To be fair that Trance is a trail MTB that is somewhat XC ie has less
>> > Travel and so forth. But even so I suspect that’s with out pedals and the
>> > Trance x which is the full trail beastie to be heavier, as a more capable
>> > longer travel beastie.
>> It's true the classification system for bikes is splintered
>> tremendously. It seems one must now choose precisely the proper bike for
>> riding roads, or racing on roads, or dirt, or small-sized gravel, or
>> larger gravel, or wooded trails, or fire roads, or uphill, or downhill...
>>
>> How many here remember Jobst's excursions into extreme terrain on a
>> (then) standard bike?
>>
>> How many here have done the same?
>>
>> Then there were these guys:
>> https://www.instagram.com/rsfarchive/?hl=en
>> back when men were men! ;-)
>>
>
>pffft...pikers. Now _these_ were _real_ men, CX on a fixed-gear!
>
>http://www.blackbirdsf.org/cx/images/1923_champfr.jpg

pffft indeed.
The first to ride a bicycle across the United States was an
Englishman, Thomas Stevens in 1884... on a "Penny Farthing" bicycle
https://www.bicycle-and-bikes.com/history-of-bicycles/tomas-stevens-penny-farthing/
in fact he rode "around the world".

One might venture the thought that modern cyclists with their
electronic shifts and fancy suspension are... well... a bit less manly
then the old folks were (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 09:48:55 -0800 (PST), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
> <funkmasterxx@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sunday, January 23, 2022 at 6:58:59 PM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 1/23/2022 6:42 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>> On 1/23/2022 11:46 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>> On Saturday, January 22, 2022 at 11:24:21 PM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>>>>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Saturday, January 22, 2022 at 4:50:27 PM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I just looked at a couple of $10,000+ 29ers and they did not list the
>>>>>>>>>> weight. This is almost a guarantee that they are 30+ lbs and not 20+
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Very few bike companies list weight, to be honest.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Giant Anthem is claimed 24/25lb depending on size model year and so on.
>>>>>>>>> Fairly stock normal XC bike.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://www.bikeradar.com/reviews/bikes/mountain-bikes/full-suspension-mountain-bikes/giant-anthem-advanced-pro-29-1-review/
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Link but plenty more if one looks, and giant are fairly conservative so I’d
>>>>>>>>> expect some others to be lighter.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Roger Merriman.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I don't have any idea where you got those weights. That is so
>>>>>>>> extraordinarily light that everyone would want to brag about it and yet,
>>>>>>>> in NONE of the advertisements I was able to find on line and in Ebay were
>>>>>>>> any weights quoted. That is a dead giveaway that they don't want anyone
>>>>>>>> to know the true weights.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Now I suspect that some of the latest hardtails could be that light if
>>>>>>>> they were running rim brakes and light tires. But not a full suspension
>>>>>>>> bike with disks. I am saying this as a person that had several very top
>>>>>>>> of the line full suspension bikes which is why I returned to CX bikes.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That’s why I provided a link. Weight is listed for a size large.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Roger, I have a feeling that that is the Giant claimed weight and not
>>>>>> actually measured weight.
>>>>>
>>>>> Here's one at 27 pounds.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.bicycling.com/bikes-gear/mountain-bike/a22658943/giant-trance-29-review/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> To be fair that Trance is a trail MTB that is somewhat XC ie has less
>>>> Travel and so forth. But even so I suspect that’s with out pedals and the
>>>> Trance x which is the full trail beastie to be heavier, as a more capable
>>>> longer travel beastie.
>>> It's true the classification system for bikes is splintered
>>> tremendously. It seems one must now choose precisely the proper bike for
>>> riding roads, or racing on roads, or dirt, or small-sized gravel, or
>>> larger gravel, or wooded trails, or fire roads, or uphill, or downhill...
>>>
>>> How many here remember Jobst's excursions into extreme terrain on a
>>> (then) standard bike?
>>>
>>> How many here have done the same?
>>>
>>> Then there were these guys:
>>> https://www.instagram.com/rsfarchive/?hl=en
>>> back when men were men! ;-)
>>>
>>
>> pffft...pikers. Now _these_ were _real_ men, CX on a fixed-gear!
>>
>> http://www.blackbirdsf.org/cx/images/1923_champfr.jpg
>
>
> pffft indeed.
> The first to ride a bicycle across the United States was an
> Englishman, Thomas Stevens in 1884... on a "Penny Farthing" bicycle
> https://www.bicycle-and-bikes.com/history-of-bicycles/tomas-stevens-penny-farthing/
> in fact he rode "around the world".
>
> One might venture the thought that modern cyclists with their
> electronic shifts and fancy suspension are... well... a bit less manly
> then the old folks were (:-)

The book of Thomas Steven’s ride around the world is available via Project
Gutenberg. Reading it is highly interesting, both in terms of what has
changed (he had to ford frozen streams while carrying his iron bicycle,
then sleep outdoors) and what hasn’t (Afghanistan is still a dangerous
shithole).

On Fri, 28 Jan 2022 01:10:33 -0000 (UTC), Ralph Barone
<ralph@invalid.com> wrote:

>John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 09:48:55 -0800 (PST), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
>> <funkmasterxx@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sunday, January 23, 2022 at 6:58:59 PM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 1/23/2022 6:42 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>> On 1/23/2022 11:46 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>> On Saturday, January 22, 2022 at 11:24:21 PM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>>>>>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, January 22, 2022 at 4:50:27 PM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I just looked at a couple of $10,000+ 29ers and they did not list the
>>>>>>>>>>> weight. This is almost a guarantee that they are 30+ lbs and not 20+
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Very few bike companies list weight, to be honest.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Giant Anthem is claimed 24/25lb depending on size model year and so on.
>>>>>>>>>> Fairly stock normal XC bike.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.bikeradar.com/reviews/bikes/mountain-bikes/full-suspension-mountain-bikes/giant-anthem-advanced-pro-29-1-review/
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Link but plenty more if one looks, and giant are fairly conservative so I?d
>>>>>>>>>> expect some others to be lighter.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Roger Merriman.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I don't have any idea where you got those weights. That is so
>>>>>>>>> extraordinarily light that everyone would want to brag about it and yet,
>>>>>>>>> in NONE of the advertisements I was able to find on line and in Ebay were
>>>>>>>>> any weights quoted. That is a dead giveaway that they don't want anyone
>>>>>>>>> to know the true weights.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Now I suspect that some of the latest hardtails could be that light if
>>>>>>>>> they were running rim brakes and light tires. But not a full suspension
>>>>>>>>> bike with disks. I am saying this as a person that had several very top
>>>>>>>>> of the line full suspension bikes which is why I returned to CX bikes.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That?s why I provided a link. Weight is listed for a size large.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Roger, I have a feeling that that is the Giant claimed weight and not
>>>>>>> actually measured weight.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Here's one at 27 pounds.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.bicycling.com/bikes-gear/mountain-bike/a22658943/giant-trance-29-review/
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> To be fair that Trance is a trail MTB that is somewhat XC ie has less
>>>>> Travel and so forth. But even so I suspect that?s with out pedals and the
>>>>> Trance x which is the full trail beastie to be heavier, as a more capable
>>>>> longer travel beastie.
>>>> It's true the classification system for bikes is splintered
>>>> tremendously. It seems one must now choose precisely the proper bike for
>>>> riding roads, or racing on roads, or dirt, or small-sized gravel, or
>>>> larger gravel, or wooded trails, or fire roads, or uphill, or downhill...
>>>>
>>>> How many here remember Jobst's excursions into extreme terrain on a
>>>> (then) standard bike?
>>>>
>>>> How many here have done the same?
>>>>
>>>> Then there were these guys:
>>>> https://www.instagram.com/rsfarchive/?hl=en
>>>> back when men were men! ;-)
>>>>
>>>
>>> pffft...pikers. Now _these_ were _real_ men, CX on a fixed-gear!
>>>
>>> http://www.blackbirdsf.org/cx/images/1923_champfr.jpg
>>
>>
>> pffft indeed.
>> The first to ride a bicycle across the United States was an
>> Englishman, Thomas Stevens in 1884... on a "Penny Farthing" bicycle
>> https://www.bicycle-and-bikes.com/history-of-bicycles/tomas-stevens-penny-farthing/
>> in fact he rode "around the world".
>>
>> One might venture the thought that modern cyclists with their
>> electronic shifts and fancy suspension are... well... a bit less manly
>> then the old folks were (:-)
>
>The book of Thomas Steven’s ride around the world is available via Project
>Gutenberg. Reading it is highly interesting, both in terms of what has
>changed (he had to ford frozen streams while carrying his iron bicycle,
>then sleep outdoors) and what hasn’t (Afghanistan is still a dangerous
>shithole).

Years ago I read an account of a fellow that had ridden a motorcycle
from somewhere in Europe to Singapore and he told of people in
Afghanistan sitting up on the mountain side and shooting at him as he
rode by.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Thursday, January 27, 2022 at 7:28:57 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 09:48:55 -0800 (PST), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
> <funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Sunday, January 23, 2022 at 6:58:59 PM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >> On 1/23/2022 6:42 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> >> > Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >> >> On 1/23/2022 11:46 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >> >>> On Saturday, January 22, 2022 at 11:24:21 PM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
> >> >>>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >>>>> On Saturday, January 22, 2022 at 4:50:27 PM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
> >> >>>>>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>> I just looked at a couple of $10,000+ 29ers and they did not list the
> >> >>>>>>> weight. This is almost a guarantee that they are 30+ lbs and not 20+
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Very few bike companies list weight, to be honest.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Giant Anthem is claimed 24/25lb depending on size model year and so on.
> >> >>>>>> Fairly stock normal XC bike.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> https://www.bikeradar.com/reviews/bikes/mountain-bikes/full-suspension-mountain-bikes/giant-anthem-advanced-pro-29-1-review/
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Link but plenty more if one looks, and giant are fairly conservative so I’d
> >> >>>>>> expect some others to be lighter.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Roger Merriman.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> I don't have any idea where you got those weights. That is so
> >> >>>>> extraordinarily light that everyone would want to brag about it and yet,
> >> >>>>> in NONE of the advertisements I was able to find on line and in Ebay were
> >> >>>>> any weights quoted. That is a dead giveaway that they don't want anyone
> >> >>>>> to know the true weights.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> Now I suspect that some of the latest hardtails could be that light if
> >> >>>>> they were running rim brakes and light tires. But not a full suspension
> >> >>>>> bike with disks. I am saying this as a person that had several very top
> >> >>>>> of the line full suspension bikes which is why I returned to CX bikes.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>> That’s why I provided a link. Weight is listed for a size large.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Roger, I have a feeling that that is the Giant claimed weight and not
> >> >>> actually measured weight.
> >> >>
> >> >> Here's one at 27 pounds.
> >> >>
> >> >> https://www.bicycling.com/bikes-gear/mountain-bike/a22658943/giant-trance-29-review/
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> > To be fair that Trance is a trail MTB that is somewhat XC ie has less
> >> > Travel and so forth. But even so I suspect that’s with out pedals and the
> >> > Trance x which is the full trail beastie to be heavier, as a more capable
> >> > longer travel beastie.
> >> It's true the classification system for bikes is splintered
> >> tremendously. It seems one must now choose precisely the proper bike for
> >> riding roads, or racing on roads, or dirt, or small-sized gravel, or
> >> larger gravel, or wooded trails, or fire roads, or uphill, or downhill....
> >>
> >> How many here remember Jobst's excursions into extreme terrain on a
> >> (then) standard bike?
> >>
> >> How many here have done the same?
> >>
> >> Then there were these guys:
> >> https://www.instagram.com/rsfarchive/?hl=en
> >> back when men were men! ;-)
> >>
> >
> >pffft...pikers. Now _these_ were _real_ men, CX on a fixed-gear!
> >
> >http://www.blackbirdsf.org/cx/images/1923_champfr.jpg
> pffft indeed.
> The first to ride a bicycle across the United States was an
> Englishman, Thomas Stevens in 1884... on a "Penny Farthing" bicycle
> https://www.bicycle-and-bikes.com/history-of-bicycles/tomas-stevens-penny-farthing/
> in fact he rode "around the world".
>
> One might venture the thought that modern cyclists with their
> electronic shifts and fancy suspension are... well... a bit less manly
> then the old folks were (:-)

I bought my first real racing bike in 1985 - a 1984 Basso Gap with Campy NR and Nisi wheels with Vittoria sew-ups (Bike Exchange in Cambridge Ma - long gone now). While I was looking over the bike I overheard a customer ask the salesman to explain the new Shimano SIS to him. The salesman replied "it's for women and children who haven't learned how to shift yet".

Tom wrote: "As an engineer Jobst] was a very good one. As I remember he worked for Hewlett-Packard and was their chief mechanical engineer."

Before that, Tom, he worked for Porsche in Germany. He got his job there by walking into the factory one day and telling them that [1] the translations in their English instruction manuals sucked; [2] that he spoke both idiomatic German and English; and [3] that he was a mechanical engineer. They originally hired him to re-write their English instruction manuals, and if you compare, say, a 1960 356B manual with a 1964 356C manual, there is a world of difference in the translations. Then after they discovered what a good engineer he was, they put him to work designing suspensions.

Furthermore, I cannot even IMAGINE cornering like this:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ZfmdlhtE7Q5xiX5e2a4SKvfdFE9ydAX0/view?usp=sharing

On Friday, January 28, 2022 at 2:42:12 PM UTC-5, William Crowell wrote:
> Furthermore, I cannot even IMAGINE cornering like this:
>
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ZfmdlhtE7Q5xiX5e2a4SKvfdFE9ydAX0/view?usp=sharing

It's easy once you're used to it.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/W9GeHsmH95BESdhF7
https://photos.app.goo.gl/EEQAzozf3VeHaa3p9

These pics are from the regional criterium championships last summer in Concord NH. I'm the rider in the black/green/pink 2nd wheel in both pictures. The corner is a 90 degree right hander after a downhill. We were taking at around 28 mph on every lap, and went through it at 30 on the last lap setting up for the sprint, which was about 200 yards flat/straight out of that corner. The photographer didn't get any pictures of me in the apex, but you can see the guys behind me in pretty extreme leans - seems to be about the same as Jobst in the photo you shared.
Points of interest - in the first link the rider in front of me in the CCB kit is Tyler Munroe, who just won the 60+ CX national championship. In the center of the picture leaning hard at the apex of the corner is Paul Curley.. Pauls list of wins is impressive to say the least: 25 national amateur titles in CX and criteriums.