1. Do I need to keep the spacer on the skewer? Gettng the quick release tight enough is a problem and I might be more able to get my frame on the skwwer more readily without it.

2. The skewer came with my Lemond Revolution indoor trainer. The way things are set up, it's almost impossible to do anything with the quick release level because it is right next to the fan for the unit. The fan doesn't come off that I can tell and of course, the lever has to be right next to the frame. I'm having trouble making this work. I can use the nut on the derailleur side to tighten the skewer on the frame mostly, but I still have to use the quick release lever. Has anyone come across a problem like this? Is there a solution? I've never had skewer problems before. I once had a J-Disc and put a skewer into it without knowing much of what to do, and it worked fine.

Thanks for any suggestions. Yes, I've watch a bunch of videos on skewers but they didn't address either of these problems. Thanks.

On 1/30/2022 5:24 PM, Kenneth Litwak wrote:
> 1. Do I need to keep the spacer on the skewer? Gettng the quick release tight enough is a problem and I might be more able to get my frame on the skwwer more readily without it.
>
> 2. The skewer came with my Lemond Revolution indoor trainer. The way things are set up, it's almost impossible to do anything with the quick release level because it is right next to the fan for the unit. The fan doesn't come off that I can tell and of course, the lever has to be right next to the frame. I'm having trouble making this work. I can use the nut on the derailleur side to tighten the skewer on the frame mostly, but I still have to use the quick release lever. Has anyone come across a problem like this? Is there a solution? I've never had skewer problems before. I once had a J-Disc and put a skewer into it without knowing much of what to do, and it worked fine.
>
> Thanks for any suggestions. Yes, I've watch a bunch of videos on skewers but they didn't address either of these problems. Thanks.
>

This should not be that much trouble. If there's not room to
close the lever you might try installing it with the lever
on the other side of the bike.

Historical note: In the 1960s, lever on the photo (chain)
side was common but in the early 1970s everyone decided they
looked right with lever on the off side.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Sunday, January 30, 2022 at 3:41:06 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> On 1/30/2022 5:24 PM, Kenneth Litwak wrote:
> > 1. Do I need to keep the spacer on the skewer? Gettng the quick release tight enough is a problem and I might be more able to get my frame on the skwwer more readily without it.
> >
> > 2. The skewer came with my Lemond Revolution indoor trainer. The way things are set up, it's almost impossible to do anything with the quick release level because it is right next to the fan for the unit. The fan doesn't come off that I can tell and of course, the lever has to be right next to the frame. I'm having trouble making this work. I can use the nut on the derailleur side to tighten the skewer on the frame mostly, but I still have to use the quick release lever. Has anyone come across a problem like this? Is there a solution? I've never had skewer problems before. I once had a J-Disc and put a skewer into it without knowing much of what to do, and it worked fine.
> >
> > Thanks for any suggestions. Yes, I've watch a bunch of videos on skewers but they didn't address either of these problems. Thanks.
> >
> This should not be that much trouble. If there's not room to
> close the lever you might try installing it with the lever
> on the other side of the bike.
>
> Historical note: In the 1960s, lever on the photo (chain)
> side was common but in the early 1970s everyone decided they
> looked right with lever on the off side.

The front fork is mirror image so it doesn't matter which side the quick release handle is on. The rear is GENERALLY no problem but with the rear derailleur it can possibly get in the way though I wouldn't think so on a trainer.

On 1/30/2022 6:24 PM, Kenneth Litwak wrote:
> 1. Do I need to keep the spacer on the skewer? Gettng the quick release tight enough is a problem and I might be more able to get my frame on the skwwer more readily without it.
>
> 2. The skewer came with my Lemond Revolution indoor trainer. The way things are set up, it's almost impossible to do anything with the quick release level because it is right next to the fan for the unit. The fan doesn't come off that I can tell and of course, the lever has to be right next to the frame. I'm having trouble making this work. I can use the nut on the derailleur side to tighten the skewer on the frame mostly, but I still have to use the quick release lever. Has anyone come across a problem like this? Is there a solution? I've never had skewer problems before. I once had a J-Disc and put a skewer into it without knowing much of what to do, and it worked fine.
>
> Thanks for any suggestions. Yes, I've watch a bunch of videos on skewers but they didn't address either of these problems. Thanks.

Can you post a photo of the problem on some photo hosting site like
Flickr, etc. and give us a link?

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Sun, 30 Jan 2022 15:24:14 -0800 (PST), Kenneth Litwak
<kennethdlitwak@gmail.com> wrote:

>1. Do I need to keep the spacer on the skewer? Gettng the quick release tight enough is a problem and I might be more able to get my frame on the skwwer more readily without it.
>
>2. The skewer came with my Lemond Revolution indoor trainer. The way things are set up, it's almost impossible to do anything with the quick release level because it is right next to the fan for the unit. The fan doesn't come off that I can tell and of course, the lever has to be right next to the frame. I'm having trouble making this work. I can use the nut on the derailleur side to tighten the skewer on the frame mostly, but I still have to use the quick release lever. Has anyone come across a problem like this? Is there a solution? I've never had skewer problems before. I once had a J-Disc and put a skewer into it without knowing much of what to do, and it worked fine.
>
>Thanks for any suggestions. Yes, I've watch a bunch of videos on skewers but they didn't address either of these problems. Thanks.

Well, I've never seen a Lemond Revolution indoor trainer but I did
look it up on the Net and found
https://tinyurl.com/2p885twp
Which seems to show that there is room to close the lever on the
skewer.

It may not be your problem but I've found that there are two basic
types of Skewer
https://tinyurl.com/5dzyjrhw
and
https://tinyurl.com/nrzace3b
My experience was that the first type did not clamp as tightly as the
second type.

Andrew Muzi can probably give you more information.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 1/30/2022 7:46 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Sun, 30 Jan 2022 15:24:14 -0800 (PST), Kenneth Litwak
> <kennethdlitwak@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> 1. Do I need to keep the spacer on the skewer? Gettng the quick release tight enough is a problem and I might be more able to get my frame on the skwwer more readily without it.
>>
>> 2. The skewer came with my Lemond Revolution indoor trainer. The way things are set up, it's almost impossible to do anything with the quick release level because it is right next to the fan for the unit. The fan doesn't come off that I can tell and of course, the lever has to be right next to the frame. I'm having trouble making this work. I can use the nut on the derailleur side to tighten the skewer on the frame mostly, but I still have to use the quick release lever. Has anyone come across a problem like this? Is there a solution? I've never had skewer problems before. I once had a J-Disc and put a skewer into it without knowing much of what to do, and it worked fine.
>>
>> Thanks for any suggestions. Yes, I've watch a bunch of videos on skewers but they didn't address either of these problems. Thanks.
>
> Well, I've never seen a Lemond Revolution indoor trainer but I did
> look it up on the Net and found
> https://tinyurl.com/2p885twp
> Which seems to show that there is room to close the lever on the
> skewer.
>
> It may not be your problem but I've found that there are two basic
> types of Skewer
> https://tinyurl.com/5dzyjrhw
> and
> https://tinyurl.com/nrzace3b
> My experience was that the first type did not clamp as tightly as the
> second type.
>
> Andrew Muzi can probably give you more information.
>

I already have.
This problem has yet persisted (at least here on RBT) for
weeks. Frank suggested posting images to show the problem
more clearly as general advice hasn't proved effective.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Thanks, everyone, especially Andrew. I think I'll try putting the level on the chain side. It seems like the skewer has been somehow bent a little, and I cannot pull it out on the quick release side. This is ridiculous.I might have to find my mallet to get it out. I can't get over what a hassle this is. Clearly, this was not a good choice for a trainer, even though it was on sale. I'll get a new skewer. I also learned that I don't need the spacer on the skewer. I never knew there was so much to learn. Thank you.

John,

Thanks for the picture. I have the second type.

Best,

Ken

On Sunday, January 30, 2022 at 5:46:11 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
> On Sun, 30 Jan 2022 15:24:14 -0800 (PST), Kenneth Litwak
>
>
> >1. Do I need to keep the spacer on the skewer? Gettng the quick release tight enough is a problem and I might be more able to get my frame on the skwwer more readily without it.
> >
> >2. The skewer came with my Lemond Revolution indoor trainer. The way things are set up, it's almost impossible to do anything with the quick release level because it is right next to the fan for the unit. The fan doesn't come off that I can tell and of course, the lever has to be right next to the frame. I'm having trouble making this work. I can use the nut on the derailleur side to tighten the skewer on the frame mostly, but I still have to use the quick release lever. Has anyone come across a problem like this? Is there a solution? I've never had skewer problems before. I once had a J-Disc and put a skewer into it without knowing much of what to do, and it worked fine.
> >
> >Thanks for any suggestions. Yes, I've watch a bunch of videos on skewers but they didn't address either of these problems. Thanks.
> Well, I've never seen a Lemond Revolution indoor trainer but I did
> look it up on the Net and found
> https://tinyurl.com/2p885twp
> Which seems to show that there is room to close the lever on the
> skewer.
>
> It may not be your problem but I've found that there are two basic
> types of Skewer
> https://tinyurl.com/5dzyjrhw
> and
> https://tinyurl.com/nrzace3b
> My experience was that the first type did not clamp as tightly as the
> second type.
>
> Andrew Muzi can probably give you more information.
> --
> Cheers,
>
> John B.

In article <g8fevg1s2caf8q1bod57orq3p11775d31a@4ax.com>,
John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com> wrote:

....

>It may not be your problem but I've found that there are two basic
>types of Skewer
>https://tinyurl.com/5dzyjrhw
>and
>https://tinyurl.com/nrzace3b
>My experience was that the first type did not clamp as tightly as the
>second type.

That's correct. See Sheldon Brown's article on quick release
skewers:

https://www.sheldonbrown.com/skewers.html

In particular both of the above types of skewer are discussed in the
section "Quick-release choices".
--
Dennis Davis <dennisdavis@fastmail.fm>

On Sunday, January 30, 2022 at 6:05:01 PM UTC-8, kenneth...@gmail.com wrote:
> Thanks, everyone, especially Andrew. I think I'll try putting the level on the chain side. It seems like the skewer has been somehow bent a little, and I cannot pull it out on the quick release side. This is ridiculous.I might have to find my mallet to get it out. I can't get over what a hassle this is. Clearly, this was not a good choice for a trainer, even though it was on sale. I'll get a new skewer. I also learned that I don't need the spacer on the skewer. I never knew there was so much to learn. Thank you.
>
> John,
>
> Thanks for the picture. I have the second type.
>
> Best,
>
> Ken
> On Sunday, January 30, 2022 at 5:46:11 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
> > On Sun, 30 Jan 2022 15:24:14 -0800 (PST), Kenneth Litwak
> >
> >
> > >1. Do I need to keep the spacer on the skewer? Gettng the quick release tight enough is a problem and I might be more able to get my frame on the skwwer more readily without it.
> > >
> > >2. The skewer came with my Lemond Revolution indoor trainer. The way things are set up, it's almost impossible to do anything with the quick release level because it is right next to the fan for the unit. The fan doesn't come off that I can tell and of course, the lever has to be right next to the frame. I'm having trouble making this work. I can use the nut on the derailleur side to tighten the skewer on the frame mostly, but I still have to use the quick release lever. Has anyone come across a problem like this? Is there a solution? I've never had skewer problems before. I once had a J-Disc and put a skewer into it without knowing much of what to do, and it worked fine.
> > >
> > >Thanks for any suggestions. Yes, I've watch a bunch of videos on skewers but they didn't address either of these problems. Thanks.
> > Well, I've never seen a Lemond Revolution indoor trainer but I did
> > look it up on the Net and found
> > https://tinyurl.com/2p885twp
> > Which seems to show that there is room to close the lever on the
> > skewer.
> >
> > It may not be your problem but I've found that there are two basic
> > types of Skewer
> > https://tinyurl.com/5dzyjrhw
> > and
> > https://tinyurl.com/nrzace3b
> > My experience was that the first type did not clamp as tightly as the
> > second type.
> >
> > Andrew Muzi can probably give you more information.

The older Campagnolo levers made of brass and steel had two advantages - they were nearly impossible to bend and they closed very smoothly making it less likely to bend even the high strength pole arm. You can still find these around on Craigslist and the like.

Interesting article. I guess I've done this wrong.

My Schwinn 10 speed is on a Minoura Mag 850 trainer. I've had the bike since the 70s, and the trainer for many years, but didn't start using the trainer until arthritis made running impossible.

So I just looked. The quick release on the front is a Joytech, nicely closed, lever on the left.

The quick release on the back is not, hard to read but might be a Minoura. I vaguely remember the trainer came with its own skewer and dire warnings to use it. I wasn't sure I used it but apparently i did. The lever is on the left, opposite the derailleur, and it appears to be open. Did I maybe just spin it down until tight, and couldn't get it to clamp? From the article it seems likely I did it wrong. I would guess it's been on that way for 10 years or so, but only recently have I used it every week.

Is there some risk here, do I need to take it all apart and start over? I seem to remember I had some trouble getting it all set up. It might be the Minoura skewer was the wrong size for a Super LeTour.

I really like my trainer workouts. I had a wind trainer in the 80s when those were big, (and noisy) and the mag trainer is much nicer.

On Saturday, February 5, 2022 at 7:29:38 AM UTC-8, timoth...@gmail.com wrote:
> Interesting article. I guess I've done this wrong.
>
> My Schwinn 10 speed is on a Minoura Mag 850 trainer. I've had the bike since the 70s, and the trainer for many years, but didn't start using the trainer until arthritis made running impossible.
>
> So I just looked. The quick release on the front is a Joytech, nicely closed, lever on the left.
>
> The quick release on the back is not, hard to read but might be a Minoura.. I vaguely remember the trainer came with its own skewer and dire warnings to use it. I wasn't sure I used it but apparently i did. The lever is on the left, opposite the derailleur, and it appears to be open. Did I maybe just spin it down until tight, and couldn't get it to clamp? From the article it seems likely I did it wrong. I would guess it's been on that way for 10 years or so, but only recently have I used it every week.
>
> Is there some risk here, do I need to take it all apart and start over? I seem to remember I had some trouble getting it all set up. It might be the Minoura skewer was the wrong size for a Super LeTour.
>
> I really like my trainer workouts. I had a wind trainer in the 80s when those were big, (and noisy) and the mag trainer is much nicer.
The skewer is meant to keep the rear wheel from slipping out of the dropouts. Dropouts come in several different types but if the wheel isn't slipping out of the dropouts and is retaining solid co9mtact with the trainer you don't have a problem.

On 2/5/2022 9:29 AM, Tim R wrote:
> Interesting article. I guess I've done this wrong.
>
> My Schwinn 10 speed is on a Minoura Mag 850 trainer. I've had the bike since the 70s, and the trainer for many years, but didn't start using the trainer until arthritis made running impossible.
>
> So I just looked. The quick release on the front is a Joytech, nicely closed, lever on the left.
>
> The quick release on the back is not, hard to read but might be a Minoura. I vaguely remember the trainer came with its own skewer and dire warnings to use it. I wasn't sure I used it but apparently i did. The lever is on the left, opposite the derailleur, and it appears to be open. Did I maybe just spin it down until tight, and couldn't get it to clamp? From the article it seems likely I did it wrong. I would guess it's been on that way for 10 years or so, but only recently have I used it every week.
>
> Is there some risk here, do I need to take it all apart and start over? I seem to remember I had some trouble getting it all set up. It might be the Minoura skewer was the wrong size for a Super LeTour.
>
> I really like my trainer workouts. I had a wind trainer in the 80s when those were big, (and noisy) and the mag trainer is much nicer.
>

Learn how to use a skewer and how the cam works. Should take
a minute or two. Any skewer ten years old or more will work
much better with a little oil dripped into the cam.

http://www.yellowjersey.org/SUZUEQR.JPG

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Saturday, February 5, 2022 at 4:57:33 PM UTC+1, AMuzi wrote:
> On 2/5/2022 9:29 AM, Tim R wrote:
> > Interesting article. I guess I've done this wrong.
> >
> > My Schwinn 10 speed is on a Minoura Mag 850 trainer. I've had the bike since the 70s, and the trainer for many years, but didn't start using the trainer until arthritis made running impossible.
> >
> > So I just looked. The quick release on the front is a Joytech, nicely closed, lever on the left.
> >
> > The quick release on the back is not, hard to read but might be a Minoura. I vaguely remember the trainer came with its own skewer and dire warnings to use it. I wasn't sure I used it but apparently i did. The lever is on the left, opposite the derailleur, and it appears to be open. Did I maybe just spin it down until tight, and couldn't get it to clamp? From the article it seems likely I did it wrong. I would guess it's been on that way for 10 years or so, but only recently have I used it every week.
> >
> > Is there some risk here, do I need to take it all apart and start over? I seem to remember I had some trouble getting it all set up. It might be the Minoura skewer was the wrong size for a Super LeTour.
> >
> > I really like my trainer workouts. I had a wind trainer in the 80s when those were big, (and noisy) and the mag trainer is much nicer.
> >
> Learn how to use a skewer and how the cam works. Should take
> a minute or two. Any skewer ten years old or more will work
> much better with a little oil dripped into the cam.
>
> http://www.yellowjersey.org/SUZUEQR.JPG
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Unbelievable. Never expected that a QR is a puzzle to so many people. Now I understand lawyer lips for those people. Never believed such people exist. My bad.

Lou

On 2/5/2022 11:37 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Saturday, February 5, 2022 at 4:57:33 PM UTC+1, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 2/5/2022 9:29 AM, Tim R wrote:
>>> Interesting article. I guess I've done this wrong.
>>>
>>> My Schwinn 10 speed is on a Minoura Mag 850 trainer. I've had the bike since the 70s, and the trainer for many years, but didn't start using the trainer until arthritis made running impossible.
>>>
>>> So I just looked. The quick release on the front is a Joytech, nicely closed, lever on the left.
>>>
>>> The quick release on the back is not, hard to read but might be a Minoura. I vaguely remember the trainer came with its own skewer and dire warnings to use it. I wasn't sure I used it but apparently i did. The lever is on the left, opposite the derailleur, and it appears to be open. Did I maybe just spin it down until tight, and couldn't get it to clamp? From the article it seems likely I did it wrong. I would guess it's been on that way for 10 years or so, but only recently have I used it every week.
>>>
>>> Is there some risk here, do I need to take it all apart and start over? I seem to remember I had some trouble getting it all set up. It might be the Minoura skewer was the wrong size for a Super LeTour.
>>>
>>> I really like my trainer workouts. I had a wind trainer in the 80s when those were big, (and noisy) and the mag trainer is much nicer.
>>>
>> Learn how to use a skewer and how the cam works. Should take
>> a minute or two. Any skewer ten years old or more will work
>> much better with a little oil dripped into the cam.
>>
>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/SUZUEQR.JPG
>> --
>> Andrew Muzi
>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>
> Unbelievable. Never expected that a QR is a puzzle to so many people. Now I understand lawyer lips for those people. Never believed such people exist. My bad.

As I've said, I think many people here on r.b.tech overestimate the
world's average level of mechanical competence. I've mentioned PhD
engineers who had to come to me to adjust their sidepull brakes. That
was not fiction.

We here on r.b.tech are a pretty select group.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Saturday, February 5, 2022 at 10:23:34 PM UTC+1, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sat, 5 Feb 2022 08:37:33 -0800 (PST), Lou Holtman
> <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >Unbelievable. Never expected that a QR is a puzzle to so many people. Now I understand lawyer lips for those people. Never believed such people exist. My bad.
> >Lou
> They exist. However, I don't believe that the problem is hereditary.
> Two stories:
>
> 1. About 30 years ago, I was introduced to a prospective computer
> repair customer who had setup several computers in his house and was
> doing custom programming for small companies. I was impressed by his
> programming abilities. However, he had a problem. He had no
> mechanical abilities, no dexterity, and no ability to assemble or
> disassemble his computers. I watched as he fumbled with a screwdriver
> trying to open a case. My attempts to show him how to use various
> hand tools were futile.
>
> Of course, I asked how this happened. He explained that his father
> had been an automobile mechanic and didn't want his son to also be an
> automobile mechanic. Every time the son would try to use a tool, the
> father would take the tool away from him. He said that this was the
> situation up to when he left home at about age 18.
>
> The results were not pretty. He literally could not use tools, had no
> mechanical aptitude, and most important, was less able to learn these
> skills as he grew older. So, I became his mechanic, in trade for him
> teaching me to program and letting me use his computer farm.
>
> 2. I attended college in the late 1960's. At the time, engineers
> were required to take a variety of mechanical classes that included
> hands on experience with the machinery. At the time, the US was on
> good terms with the Shah of Iran. A fairly large percentage of the
> engineering schools had foreign exchange students from Iran. Most of
> them were the sons of the wealthy and powerful in Iran. Some even
> arranged to be accompanied by a servant. It was considered
> inappropriate for the upper classes to get their hands dirty, which
> was the job of the servant. This created some major problems in the
> mechanical classes, where they were actually expected to use the
> equipment and tools. To suggest that they constituted a safety hazard
> to themselves and others would be an understatement.
>
> Of course, we all attempted to help them learn how to operate the
> machinery. That's when we realized that the complicated tool they had
> ever operated was a pencil sharpener. Skipping the hand tools and
> trying to teach them to use a bench grinder, much less a mill or a
> lathe, was an exercise in frustration.
>
> It was the same problem as the son of the auto mechanic. If one
> doesn't learn to use basic tools and machinery at an early age, trying
> to do so at a later age is difficult or impossible. That might
> explain why operating a quick release is a challenge for some,
> possibly because they lack prior experience working with machinery.
>
> --
> Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
> PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
> Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
> Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

I don’t expect people to know how a bolt works, but I could explain to my neighbor how to operate a QR when she got her first ‘sporty’ bike and have to be able to fix a flat. She never saw a Home Depot from the inside. It took me 15 sec.

Lou

On Saturday, February 5, 2022 at 1:23:34 PM UTC-8, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> Two stories:
>
> 1. ... I watched as he fumbled with a screwdriver
> trying to open a case. My attempts to show him how to use various
> hand tools were futile. ... He literally could not use tools, had no
> mechanical aptitude, and most important, was less able to learn these
> skills as he grew older.

I recall reading a serious research paper examining the brain's response to tool use.
While I don't recall the details, it said that the brain internally treats the tool as if it were part of the body.
The tip of the tool gets treated similar to the tip of one's fingers, etc.

I imagine that sort of capability has to be developed from an early age.

> 2. I attended college in the late 1960's. At the time, engineers
> were required to take a variety of mechanical classes that included
> hands on experience with the machinery. At the time, the US was on
> good terms with the Shah of Iran. A fairly large percentage of the
> engineering schools had foreign exchange students from Iran. Most of
> them were the sons of the wealthy and powerful in Iran. Some even
> arranged to be accompanied by a servant. It was considered
> inappropriate for the upper classes to get their hands dirty, which
> was the job of the servant. This created some major problems in the
> mechanical classes, where they were actually expected to use the
> equipment and tools. To suggest that they constituted a safety hazard
> to themselves and others would be an understatement.
>
> Of course, we all attempted to help them learn how to operate the
> machinery. That's when we realized that the complicated tool they had
> ever operated was a pencil sharpener. Skipping the hand tools and
> trying to teach them to use a bench grinder, much less a mill or a
> lathe, was an exercise in frustration.

Stories from the university:

I once developed a lab exercise that had students disassembling small 4 stroke engines and analyzing
them in many ways - force diagrams, manufacturing techniques and materials, etc. Teams
of students worked hard together on this, learned a lot and found it really interesting. (Many of
them had never seen the inside of an engine.)

One middle eastern faculty member I worked with then was highly educated, an expert in heat transfer
and fluid flow, but clueless mechanically. He walked into the lab one day, chatted happily with the students,
then stopped suddenly. He grabbed a connecting rod and end cap and almost shouted: "What's this cheap
American junk?? Why is this bolted together?? It should be made one piece!!!" He was loud enough that
everyone stopped work and looked at him.

I said "This is the crankshaft. If the connecting rod were one piece, how would you install it?"

He paused, looked at the con rod and crankshaft, back to the con rod, then said "Oh. OK."
And he quietly walked out of the lab.

(And since this is r.b.tech, I'll interject that yes, I know many two strokes have one piece
con rods and assembled crankshafts. I've worked on those too.)

Second story: Sometimes I also taught an intro to machine shop lab. It was just the basics of
layout, some work with hand tools like hacksaws and files, then moving on up to use of a lathe,
milling machine, drill press, etc. They made a couple small assemblies - a bell center punch and
a V-block clamp set.We were certainly not trying to make them machinists! But
we considered it valuable to know how things were done in a machine shop, to have a
practical idea of the shop's capabilities, and (as I often said) to teach them to think twice
before specifying an unnecessarily tight tolerance.

Occasionally a different department in the School of Engineering would send a student
to take our lab, typically if they were short on some lab requirement and needed a substitution
to graduate. One such young woman arrived with a tremendous chip on her shoulder.
She was obviously VERY displeased at getting her hands dirty in any way.

I tried once to take her aside and get her to appreciate that the experience would have
some practical value. Her retort: "I don't need this! When I get a job I'm going to
have _people_ to do this for me!"

I gave up. And at the end of that term, I was pleased to give her a grade as low as
she deserved.

- Frank Krygowski

On Saturday, February 5, 2022 at 1:56:14 PM UTC-8, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, February 5, 2022 at 10:23:34 PM UTC+1, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Sat, 5 Feb 2022 08:37:33 -0800 (PST), Lou Holtman
> > <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > >Unbelievable. Never expected that a QR is a puzzle to so many people. Now I understand lawyer lips for those people. Never believed such people exist. My bad.
> > >Lou
> > They exist. However, I don't believe that the problem is hereditary.
> > Two stories:
> >
> > 1. About 30 years ago, I was introduced to a prospective computer
> > repair customer who had setup several computers in his house and was
> > doing custom programming for small companies. I was impressed by his
> > programming abilities. However, he had a problem. He had no
> > mechanical abilities, no dexterity, and no ability to assemble or
> > disassemble his computers. I watched as he fumbled with a screwdriver
> > trying to open a case. My attempts to show him how to use various
> > hand tools were futile.
> >
> > Of course, I asked how this happened. He explained that his father
> > had been an automobile mechanic and didn't want his son to also be an
> > automobile mechanic. Every time the son would try to use a tool, the
> > father would take the tool away from him. He said that this was the
> > situation up to when he left home at about age 18.
> >
> > The results were not pretty. He literally could not use tools, had no
> > mechanical aptitude, and most important, was less able to learn these
> > skills as he grew older. So, I became his mechanic, in trade for him
> > teaching me to program and letting me use his computer farm.
> >
> > 2. I attended college in the late 1960's. At the time, engineers
> > were required to take a variety of mechanical classes that included
> > hands on experience with the machinery. At the time, the US was on
> > good terms with the Shah of Iran. A fairly large percentage of the
> > engineering schools had foreign exchange students from Iran. Most of
> > them were the sons of the wealthy and powerful in Iran. Some even
> > arranged to be accompanied by a servant. It was considered
> > inappropriate for the upper classes to get their hands dirty, which
> > was the job of the servant. This created some major problems in the
> > mechanical classes, where they were actually expected to use the
> > equipment and tools. To suggest that they constituted a safety hazard
> > to themselves and others would be an understatement.
> >
> > Of course, we all attempted to help them learn how to operate the
> > machinery. That's when we realized that the complicated tool they had
> > ever operated was a pencil sharpener. Skipping the hand tools and
> > trying to teach them to use a bench grinder, much less a mill or a
> > lathe, was an exercise in frustration.
> >
> > It was the same problem as the son of the auto mechanic. If one
> > doesn't learn to use basic tools and machinery at an early age, trying
> > to do so at a later age is difficult or impossible. That might
> > explain why operating a quick release is a challenge for some,
> > possibly because they lack prior experience working with machinery.
> >
> > --
> > Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
> > PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
> > Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
> > Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
> I don’t expect people to know how a bolt works, but I could explain to my neighbor how to operate a QR when she got her first ‘sporty’ bike and have to be able to fix a flat. She never saw a Home Depot from the inside. It took me 15 sec.
>
> Lou
Kenneth Litwak <kennethdlitwak@gmail.com>
4:20 PM (1 minute ago)
to rec.bicycles.tech
I might have missed something in this thread, but I have never had a problem using a quick release. However, there has never been the fan of an indoor trainer that as less than 1": away from the quick release lever in my way... That is the problem, not my lack of understanding of quick release levers.. I can't count how many flats I've fixed, but I've never had a quick release problem. In this case, the dropouts on the seat/chain tubes keep coming off the skewer. I simply can't get it tight enough. That has never been a problem. I'm about to head to a bike store to buy a new skewer and get help removing the bent skewer from the trainer. Then, I will follow the recommendation to put the skewer in with the quick release on the derailleur side and hope it won't interfere with the derailleur. I've been around the block several times, and tired for about two years to ro do road racing. I have never seen a dBTW, I have used tools most of my life, whether a flat-bladed screw driver or drill press (in eighth grade). I do have problems with some bike maintenance issues because every demo I have ever watched was too far away for me to see the details of what needed to happen. I was born with a significant visual impairment.

Nevertheless, I can operate a quick release lever. If you have to take a wheel off, it's makes it fairly obvious what to do.

On Saturday, February 5, 2022 at 7:32:26 PM UTC-5, kenneth...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, February 5, 2022 at 1:56:14 PM UTC-8, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Saturday, February 5, 2022 at 10:23:34 PM UTC+1, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Sat, 5 Feb 2022 08:37:33 -0800 (PST), Lou Holtman
> > > <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > >Unbelievable. Never expected that a QR is a puzzle to so many people.. Now I understand lawyer lips for those people. Never believed such people exist. My bad.
> > > >Lou
> > > They exist. However, I don't believe that the problem is hereditary.
> > > Two stories:
> > >
> > > 1. About 30 years ago, I was introduced to a prospective computer
> > > repair customer who had setup several computers in his house and was
> > > doing custom programming for small companies. I was impressed by his
> > > programming abilities. However, he had a problem. He had no
> > > mechanical abilities, no dexterity, and no ability to assemble or
> > > disassemble his computers. I watched as he fumbled with a screwdriver
> > > trying to open a case. My attempts to show him how to use various
> > > hand tools were futile.
> > >
> > > Of course, I asked how this happened. He explained that his father
> > > had been an automobile mechanic and didn't want his son to also be an
> > > automobile mechanic. Every time the son would try to use a tool, the
> > > father would take the tool away from him. He said that this was the
> > > situation up to when he left home at about age 18.
> > >
> > > The results were not pretty. He literally could not use tools, had no
> > > mechanical aptitude, and most important, was less able to learn these
> > > skills as he grew older. So, I became his mechanic, in trade for him
> > > teaching me to program and letting me use his computer farm.
> > >
> > > 2. I attended college in the late 1960's. At the time, engineers
> > > were required to take a variety of mechanical classes that included
> > > hands on experience with the machinery. At the time, the US was on
> > > good terms with the Shah of Iran. A fairly large percentage of the
> > > engineering schools had foreign exchange students from Iran. Most of
> > > them were the sons of the wealthy and powerful in Iran. Some even
> > > arranged to be accompanied by a servant. It was considered
> > > inappropriate for the upper classes to get their hands dirty, which
> > > was the job of the servant. This created some major problems in the
> > > mechanical classes, where they were actually expected to use the
> > > equipment and tools. To suggest that they constituted a safety hazard
> > > to themselves and others would be an understatement.
> > >
> > > Of course, we all attempted to help them learn how to operate the
> > > machinery. That's when we realized that the complicated tool they had
> > > ever operated was a pencil sharpener. Skipping the hand tools and
> > > trying to teach them to use a bench grinder, much less a mill or a
> > > lathe, was an exercise in frustration.
> > >
> > > It was the same problem as the son of the auto mechanic. If one
> > > doesn't learn to use basic tools and machinery at an early age, trying
> > > to do so at a later age is difficult or impossible. That might
> > > explain why operating a quick release is a challenge for some,
> > > possibly because they lack prior experience working with machinery.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
> > > PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
> > > Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
> > > Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
> > I don’t expect people to know how a bolt works, but I could explain to my neighbor how to operate a QR when she got her first ‘sporty’ bike and have to be able to fix a flat. She never saw a Home Depot from the inside. It took me 15 sec.
> >
> > Lou
> Kenneth Litwak <kenneth...@gmail.com>
>
> 4:20 PM (1 minute ago)
>
> to rec.bicycles.tech
> I might have missed something in this thread, but I have never had a problem using a quick release. However, there has never been the fan of an indoor trainer that as less than 1": away from the quick release lever in my way.. That is the problem, not my lack of understanding of quick release levers. I can't count how many flats I've fixed, but I've never had a quick release problem. In this case, the dropouts on the seat/chain tubes keep coming off the skewer. I simply can't get it tight enough. That has never been a problem. I'm about to head to a bike store to buy a new skewer and get help removing the bent skewer from the trainer. Then, I will follow the recommendation to put the skewer in with the quick release on the derailleur side and hope it won't interfere with the derailleur. I've been around the block several times, and tired for about two years to ro do road racing. I have never seen a dBTW, I have used tools most of my life, whether a flat-bladed screw driver or drill press (in eighth grade). I do have problems with some bike maintenance issues because every demo I have ever watched was too far away for me to see the details of what needed to happen. I was born with a significant visual impairment.
>
> Nevertheless, I can operate a quick release lever. If you have to take a wheel off, it's makes it fairly obvious what to do.

I also had a question about the quick release on my indoor trainer. I'm not a bike mechanic but I've done a reasonable amount of household and auto maintenance, and I've had no issue getting a quick release off and changing a bike tire. I didn't really know how they worked until I read that article someone shared above. But that article makes it clear they should be cammed into place, not screwed, and when I looked at the bike on my trainer it was clear I had not done that. I remember having trouble getting it to fit, but not the details of why.

I think I see why the trainer mfg supplied a replacement skewer. The trainer assembly has a sort of a socket the skewer has to fit inside, and probably some quick releases wouldn't fit. For some reason I couldn't get theirs to cam shut, but I've ridden that trainer off and on for probably 10 years and heavily for the last year or two. So the question is am I damaging bearings or something? Will it slip off at some point, and since I'm pedaling at speed I'll be propelled across the room into the tv?

Off topic, but in the 70s I also went to grad school with some students from Iran (they called it Persia). We were not allowed to record any lectures if those students were present because of concerns with secret police. I made the mistake of riding with one once, and she scared the crap out of me, totally different approach to getting from point A to B, and it didn't involve any legalities.

On Sat, 5 Feb 2022 07:29:36 -0800 (PST), Tim R
<timothy42bach@gmail.com> wrote:

>Interesting article. I guess I've done this wrong.
>
>My Schwinn 10 speed is on a Minoura Mag 850 trainer. I've had the bike since the 70s, and the trainer for many years, but didn't start using the trainer until arthritis made running impossible.
>
>So I just looked. The quick release on the front is a Joytech, nicely closed, lever on the left.
>
>The quick release on the back is not, hard to read but might be a Minoura. I vaguely remember the trainer came with its own skewer and dire warnings to use it. I wasn't sure I used it but apparently i did. The lever is on the left, opposite the derailleur, and it appears to be open. Did I maybe just spin it down until tight, and couldn't get it to clamp? From the article it seems likely I did it wrong. I would guess it's been on that way for 10 years or so, but only recently have I used it every week.
>
>Is there some risk here, do I need to take it all apart and start over? I seem to remember I had some trouble getting it all set up. It might be the Minoura skewer was the wrong size for a Super LeTour.
>
>I really like my trainer workouts. I had a wind trainer in the 80s when those were big, (and noisy) and the mag trainer is much nicer.

I've never had a Minoura Mag 850 trainer so I
googled it"
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Minoura+Mag+850+trainer&iax=images&ia=images
and some of the photos seem to show the trainer clamping on the outer
end of a skewer, but a different site
https://www.manualslib.com/manual/407548/Minoura-Mag-850.html#manual
shows a "coupling" and in page #2 states

--- Replace your quick release skewer with the supplied one and
install the supplied coupler protection cap into the right side
coupling when you use the trainer.

--- remove the protector cap when you use your own quick release
skewer.

I would think that the real question would be whether the skewer end
fitted well into the trainer "clamps". If so then I suspect that it
will work and the only question would be how tight to set the clamping
side. Note that the clamping force of the skewer is, on a wheel,
sufficient to change the wheel bearing clearance so winding a hand
crank against the end of the skewer could well do the same.
https://sheldonbrown.com/cone-adjustment.html

Logically spinning the wheel after it is clamped in place, if
possible, would indicate whether it was too tightly clamped.

--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sat, 5 Feb 2022 13:12:12 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 2/5/2022 11:37 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>> On Saturday, February 5, 2022 at 4:57:33 PM UTC+1, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 2/5/2022 9:29 AM, Tim R wrote:
>>>> Interesting article. I guess I've done this wrong.
>>>>
>>>> My Schwinn 10 speed is on a Minoura Mag 850 trainer. I've had the bike since the 70s, and the trainer for many years, but didn't start using the trainer until arthritis made running impossible.
>>>>
>>>> So I just looked. The quick release on the front is a Joytech, nicely closed, lever on the left.
>>>>
>>>> The quick release on the back is not, hard to read but might be a Minoura. I vaguely remember the trainer came with its own skewer and dire warnings to use it. I wasn't sure I used it but apparently i did. The lever is on the left, opposite the derailleur, and it appears to be open. Did I maybe just spin it down until tight, and couldn't get it to clamp? From the article it seems likely I did it wrong. I would guess it's been on that way for 10 years or so, but only recently have I used it every week.
>>>>
>>>> Is there some risk here, do I need to take it all apart and start over? I seem to remember I had some trouble getting it all set up. It might be the Minoura skewer was the wrong size for a Super LeTour.
>>>>
>>>> I really like my trainer workouts. I had a wind trainer in the 80s when those were big, (and noisy) and the mag trainer is much nicer.
>>>>
>>> Learn how to use a skewer and how the cam works. Should take
>>> a minute or two. Any skewer ten years old or more will work
>>> much better with a little oil dripped into the cam.
>>>
>>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/SUZUEQR.JPG
>>> --
>>> Andrew Muzi
>>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
>>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>>
>> Unbelievable. Never expected that a QR is a puzzle to so many people. Now I understand lawyer lips for those people. Never believed such people exist. My bad.
>
>As I've said, I think many people here on r.b.tech overestimate the
>world's average level of mechanical competence. I've mentioned PhD
>engineers who had to come to me to adjust their sidepull brakes. That
>was not fiction.
>
>We here on r.b.tech are a pretty select group.

I frequently use my wife as a "test" of the complexity of a mechanical
device. If she can operate it then anyone can.

Out of curiosity I just tested her on how a wheel fits a bicycle frame
and how a skewer actually functions to clamp it in place. She didn't
have a clue. Not how the clamping action was controlled by the skewer
lever nor how it actually clamped the wheel.

On the other hand, she can crochet, knit, is a competent dressmaker,
cooks, gardens, minds the kids (past tense now, thank God), and a lot
of things that I'm at a complete loss at how to do.

It really is "horses for courses" as the British have it (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Saturday, February 5, 2022 at 6:07:50 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
> On Sat, 5 Feb 2022 13:12:12 -0500, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>
> >We here on r.b.tech are a pretty select group.
> I frequently use my wife as a "test" of the complexity of a mechanical
> device. If she can operate it then anyone can.
>
> Out of curiosity I just tested her on how a wheel fits a bicycle frame
> and how a skewer actually functions to clamp it in place. She didn't
> have a clue. Not how the clamping action was controlled by the skewer
> lever nor how it actually clamped the wheel.
>
> On the other hand, she can crochet, knit, is a competent dressmaker,
> cooks, gardens, minds the kids (past tense now, thank God), and a lot
> of things that I'm at a complete loss at how to do.
>
> It really is "horses for courses" as the British have it (:-)

Agreed. The PhD electrical engineer whose brakes I had to adjust for him is absolutely
expert in microprocessors. The guy who never saw a connecting rod was great at
heat transfer. Another EE I know told her dad (my best friend at the time) that she wouldn't
even try to answer his home wiring question. "Dad, I'm not _that_ kind of electrical engineer."

And that's just some engineer stories. I could talk about cooking, poetry, home remodeling,
and many other fields in which I know impressive experts.

- Frank Krygowski

On Sat, 5 Feb 2022 16:25:03 -0800 (PST), Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Saturday, February 5, 2022 at 1:23:34 PM UTC-8, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>> Two stories:
>>
>> 1. ... I watched as he fumbled with a screwdriver
>> trying to open a case. My attempts to show him how to use various
>> hand tools were futile. ... He literally could not use tools, had no
>> mechanical aptitude, and most important, was less able to learn these
>> skills as he grew older.
>
>I recall reading a serious research paper examining the brain's response to tool use.
>While I don't recall the details, it said that the brain internally treats the tool as if it were part of the body.
>The tip of the tool gets treated similar to the tip of one's fingers, etc.
>
>I imagine that sort of capability has to be developed from an early age.
>
>> 2. I attended college in the late 1960's. At the time, engineers
>> were required to take a variety of mechanical classes that included
>> hands on experience with the machinery. At the time, the US was on
>> good terms with the Shah of Iran. A fairly large percentage of the
>> engineering schools had foreign exchange students from Iran. Most of
>> them were the sons of the wealthy and powerful in Iran. Some even
>> arranged to be accompanied by a servant. It was considered
>> inappropriate for the upper classes to get their hands dirty, which
>> was the job of the servant. This created some major problems in the
>> mechanical classes, where they were actually expected to use the
>> equipment and tools. To suggest that they constituted a safety hazard
>> to themselves and others would be an understatement.
>>
>> Of course, we all attempted to help them learn how to operate the
>> machinery. That's when we realized that the complicated tool they had
>> ever operated was a pencil sharpener. Skipping the hand tools and
>> trying to teach them to use a bench grinder, much less a mill or a
>> lathe, was an exercise in frustration.
>
>Stories from the university:
>
>I once developed a lab exercise that had students disassembling small 4 stroke engines and analyzing
>them in many ways - force diagrams, manufacturing techniques and materials, etc. Teams
>of students worked hard together on this, learned a lot and found it really interesting. (Many of
>them had never seen the inside of an engine.)
>
>One middle eastern faculty member I worked with then was highly educated, an expert in heat transfer
>and fluid flow, but clueless mechanically. He walked into the lab one day, chatted happily with the students,
>then stopped suddenly. He grabbed a connecting rod and end cap and almost shouted: "What's this cheap
>American junk?? Why is this bolted together?? It should be made one piece!!!" He was loud enough that
>everyone stopped work and looked at him.
>
>I said "This is the crankshaft. If the connecting rod were one piece, how would you install it?"
>
>He paused, looked at the con rod and crankshaft, back to the con rod, then said "Oh. OK."
>And he quietly walked out of the lab.
>
>(And since this is r.b.tech, I'll interject that yes, I know many two strokes have one piece
>con rods and assembled crankshafts. I've worked on those too.)
>
>Second story: Sometimes I also taught an intro to machine shop lab. It was just the basics of
>layout, some work with hand tools like hacksaws and files, then moving on up to use of a lathe,
>milling machine, drill press, etc. They made a couple small assemblies - a bell center punch and
>a V-block clamp set.We were certainly not trying to make them machinists! But
>we considered it valuable to know how things were done in a machine shop, to have a
>practical idea of the shop's capabilities, and (as I often said) to teach them to think twice
>before specifying an unnecessarily tight tolerance.
>
>Occasionally a different department in the School of Engineering would send a student
>to take our lab, typically if they were short on some lab requirement and needed a substitution
>to graduate. One such young woman arrived with a tremendous chip on her shoulder.
>She was obviously VERY displeased at getting her hands dirty in any way.
>
>I tried once to take her aside and get her to appreciate that the experience would have
>some practical value. Her retort: "I don't need this! When I get a job I'm going to
>have _people_ to do this for me!"
>
>I gave up. And at the end of that term, I was pleased to give her a grade as low as
>she deserved.
>
>- Frank Krygowski

There is a guy on another site that is forever posting about how to
make some connecting part as it is so tiny and difficult to make. I
suggested one day, that perhaps he ought to design from the other end,
so to speak, and first figure out how to hold it together and then
design the main part.

He, of course, got all upset, but just yesterday he was trying to
figure out how to machine some sort of tiny plastic pin (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Saturday, February 5, 2022 at 5:13:36 PM UTC-8, timoth...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, February 5, 2022 at 7:32:26 PM UTC-5, kenneth...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Saturday, February 5, 2022 at 1:56:14 PM UTC-8, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Saturday, February 5, 2022 at 10:23:34 PM UTC+1, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > On Sat, 5 Feb 2022 08:37:33 -0800 (PST), Lou Holtman
> > > > <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >Unbelievable. Never expected that a QR is a puzzle to so many people. Now I understand lawyer lips for those people. Never believed such people exist. My bad.
> > > > >Lou
> > > > They exist. However, I don't believe that the problem is hereditary..
> > > > Two stories:
> > > >
> > > > 1. About 30 years ago, I was introduced to a prospective computer
> > > > repair customer who had setup several computers in his house and was
> > > > doing custom programming for small companies. I was impressed by his
> > > > programming abilities. However, he had a problem. He had no
> > > > mechanical abilities, no dexterity, and no ability to assemble or
> > > > disassemble his computers. I watched as he fumbled with a screwdriver
> > > > trying to open a case. My attempts to show him how to use various
> > > > hand tools were futile.
> > > >
> > > > Of course, I asked how this happened. He explained that his father
> > > > had been an automobile mechanic and didn't want his son to also be an
> > > > automobile mechanic. Every time the son would try to use a tool, the
> > > > father would take the tool away from him. He said that this was the
> > > > situation up to when he left home at about age 18.
> > > >
> > > > The results were not pretty. He literally could not use tools, had no
> > > > mechanical aptitude, and most important, was less able to learn these
> > > > skills as he grew older. So, I became his mechanic, in trade for him
> > > > teaching me to program and letting me use his computer farm.
> > > >
> > > > 2. I attended college in the late 1960's. At the time, engineers
> > > > were required to take a variety of mechanical classes that included
> > > > hands on experience with the machinery. At the time, the US was on
> > > > good terms with the Shah of Iran. A fairly large percentage of the
> > > > engineering schools had foreign exchange students from Iran. Most of
> > > > them were the sons of the wealthy and powerful in Iran. Some even
> > > > arranged to be accompanied by a servant. It was considered
> > > > inappropriate for the upper classes to get their hands dirty, which
> > > > was the job of the servant. This created some major problems in the
> > > > mechanical classes, where they were actually expected to use the
> > > > equipment and tools. To suggest that they constituted a safety hazard
> > > > to themselves and others would be an understatement.
> > > >
> > > > Of course, we all attempted to help them learn how to operate the
> > > > machinery. That's when we realized that the complicated tool they had
> > > > ever operated was a pencil sharpener. Skipping the hand tools and
> > > > trying to teach them to use a bench grinder, much less a mill or a
> > > > lathe, was an exercise in frustration.
> > > >
> > > > It was the same problem as the son of the auto mechanic. If one
> > > > doesn't learn to use basic tools and machinery at an early age, trying
> > > > to do so at a later age is difficult or impossible. That might
> > > > explain why operating a quick release is a challenge for some,
> > > > possibly because they lack prior experience working with machinery.
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
> > > > PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
> > > > Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
> > > > Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
> > > I don’t expect people to know how a bolt works, but I could explain to my neighbor how to operate a QR when she got her first ‘sporty’ bike and have to be able to fix a flat. She never saw a Home Depot from the inside. It took me 15 sec.
> > >
> > > Lou
> > Kenneth Litwak <kenneth...@gmail.com>
> >
> > 4:20 PM (1 minute ago)
> >
> > to rec.bicycles.tech
> > I might have missed something in this thread, but I have never had a problem using a quick release. However, there has never been the fan of an indoor trainer that as less than 1": away from the quick release lever in my way.. That is the problem, not my lack of understanding of quick release levers. I can't count how many flats I've fixed, but I've never had a quick release problem. In this case, the dropouts on the seat/chain tubes keep coming off the skewer. I simply can't get it tight enough. That has never been a problem. I'm about to head to a bike store to buy a new skewer and get help removing the bent skewer from the trainer. Then, I will follow the recommendation to put the skewer in with the quick release on the derailleur side and hope it won't interfere with the derailleur. I've been around the block several times, and tired for about two years to ro do road racing. I have never seen a dBTW, I have used tools most of my life, whether a flat-bladed screw driver or drill press (in eighth grade). I do have problems with some bike maintenance issues because every demo I have ever watched was too far away for me to see the details of what needed to happen. I was born with a significant visual impairment.
> >
> > Nevertheless, I can operate a quick release lever. If you have to take a wheel off, it's makes it fairly obvious what to do.
> I also had a question about the quick release on my indoor trainer. I'm not a bike mechanic but I've done a reasonable amount of household and auto maintenance, and I've had no issue getting a quick release off and changing a bike tire. I didn't really know how they worked until I read that article someone shared above. But that article makes it clear they should be cammed into place, not screwed, and when I looked at the bike on my trainer it was clear I had not done that. I remember having trouble getting it to fit, but not the details of why.
>
> I think I see why the trainer mfg supplied a replacement skewer. The trainer assembly has a sort of a socket the skewer has to fit inside, and probably some quick releases wouldn't fit. For some reason I couldn't get theirs to cam shut, but I've ridden that trainer off and on for probably 10 years and heavily for the last year or two. So the question is am I damaging bearings or something? Will it slip off at some point, and since I'm pedaling at speed I'll be propelled across the room into the tv?
>
> Off topic, but in the 70s I also went to grad school with some students from Iran (they called it Persia). We were not allowed to record any lectures if those students were present because of concerns with secret police. I made the mistake of riding with one once, and she scared the crap out of me, totally different approach to getting from point A to B, and it didn't involve any legalities.

Sorry for the incoherent message. I was having trouble with typing (the message kept going below the bottom
of the screen. It should have read, " of the screen). By the way, I h ave never seen a quick release on the derailleur side of the rear wheel. Sorry

On Sat, 05 Feb 2022 20:11:05 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Sat, 5 Feb 2022 16:25:03 -0800 (PST), Frank Krygowski
><frkrygow@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Saturday, February 5, 2022 at 1:23:34 PM UTC-8, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>
>>> Two stories:
>>>
>>> 1. ... I watched as he fumbled with a screwdriver
>>> trying to open a case. My attempts to show him how to use various
>>> hand tools were futile. ... He literally could not use tools, had no
>>> mechanical aptitude, and most important, was less able to learn these
>>> skills as he grew older.
>
>>I recall reading a serious research paper examining the brain's response to tool use.
>>While I don't recall the details, it said that the brain internally treats the tool as if it were part of the body.
>>The tip of the tool gets treated similar to the tip of one's fingers, etc.
>
>Exactly. Try this simple experiment. Take a stick, about two cubits
>long, and poke at various objects that have a surface texture, such as
>a carpet, tree bark, flooring, or window glass. It might help to
>close your eyes to enhance the effect. You'll find that you feel the
>texture at the tip of the stick, not in your fingers. It's much like
>the stick was an extension of your fingers. For extra credit, try
>groping around in a totally dark room (or blindfolded) with and
>without the stick. You'll find that it's easier to locate, identify,
>and navigate around objects with the stick than with just the hands.
>

2 cubits? A modern cubit is .4572 meters so 2 cubits is just about 1
yard.
http://www.kylesconverter.com/Length/Cubits-to-Feet
So I poke a window and a towel with my yardstick? Yes I can feel a
difference in effort to drag the tip of the stick across the two
different surfaces but no I can't feel the surface texture as such.

As for walking around in a dark room? Well, it is about noon right now
so I tried your test with my eyes closed and poked my wife with my
stick and (disregarding her comments) yes I could feel something
there. It has a little "give" to it not like poking, say a concrete
wall. Then I tried it with bare hands. Hot Dog! A Girl!

>Hint: Humans and hominids have been carrying and using sticks for
>millions of years. After a large number of generations, such sensory
>enhancing instruments are no longer separate tools, but are worn as a
>prosthetic hand extension.
>
>Drivel: If you want to watch the stick fail, rigidly attach the stick
>to a hard hat or possibly bicycle helmet. Yes, it looks and feels
>kinda dumb and strange. Try using the stick to feel surface textures
>and identify objects. For most (not all) people, it doesn't work as
>well as holding the stick in the hands.
>
>>I imagine that sort of capability has to be developed from an early age.
>
>That seems to be my experience. Many skills must be learned at an
>early age. For example, my attempts to learn (and re-learn) several
>foreign languages have all failed.
>
>When we are mechanically proficient, we tend to make some dubious
>assumptions. For example, we instantly recognize some fabricated
>object as being composed of obviously separate parts and are assembled
>into the final object, such as the quick release. The assumption is
>that everyone can instantly identify the parts and how they go
>together. That's not always true.
><https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molyneux%27s_problem>
>In 1688, Moyneux studied five children, who were blind from birth, and
>asked if they could recognize objects, after their sight had been
>restored, which they had previously only recognized by touch. The
>over-simplified answer is yes, but not immediately. It takes some
>time for the brain to transfer the objects from feel to sight. There
>was a better example, which I can't seem to find right now. Several
>brothers were blind from birth and had their sight restored. While
>they were blind, they would hold hands, with the oldest brother in the
>lead with a cane or stick. They would weave their way through
>obstacles in this manner. However, when their sight was restored,
>they continued to hold hands and rely on the oldest to find a safe
>path. The problem was that they could not distinguish, solely by
>sight, where different but adjacent objects divided. For example, put
>a box on a table, and they thought the box and table were one solid
>object.
>
>I've seen mild versions of this in people who are not mechanically
>inclined. They don't know how something works, moves, or operates
>because they can't identify the individual components by sight (or
>from the drawings in the instruction manual). They also could not
>visualize how some things look when disassembled or when viewed from
>the back. Orthographic and isometric projections were difficult (or
>impossible). Give them a quick release and they would have
>difficulties describing how it works without some trial and error
>experimentation.
>
>While a quick release is almost a trivial example which most people
>can figure out, we have technology in daily use that is not so
>trivial. For example, we have a large part of the population that can
>operate a motor vehicle, without the slightest idea of what is
>happening in the engine compartment or what makes it move. Even basic
>repairs are a challenge to some. However, if they had learned how a
>car works and how to maintain and fix it while young, things would be
>very different.
>
>Same with the quick release. If the bicycle owner did not do their
>own bicycle repairs when young, I doubt they would be able to learn
>those skills past about age 20. To the greater part of the department
>store bicycle buying public, a bicycle is intended to be ridden with
>the maintenance left to the LBS (local bike shop). That includes
>simple tasks, like adjusting a quick release. Seems simple enough,
>but without the experience of knowing the difference between loose,
>snug, tight, and thread stripping super-tight, they would lack the
>feel necessary to properly adjust the quick release. Unless one has
>been working with nuts and bolts from an early age, acquiring the
>skill to recognize the proper torque is difficult and usually requires
>a torque wrench[1].
>
>
>[1] It would be easy enough to install two Belleville washers on
>quick release and instruct the owner to tighten until the washers are
>partially flattened or until one "clicks". That would give the
>inexperienced owner a measuring tool as to the correct torque,
>preload, pressure etc.

Well, maybe. But threaded fasteners will require different torque to
achieve the same clamping force depending a number of things. Thread
pitch, for example, or whether the fastener is dry or has been
lubricated.
I worked on radial aircraft engines that had a two piece crankshaft
that was held together with a single large bolt. You measured the
length of the bolt an then tightened it to a specific stretched
length. No torque value mentioned.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Saturday, February 5, 2022 at 11:11:14 PM UTC-5, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:

> >I imagine that sort of capability has to be developed from an early age.
> That seems to be my experience. Many skills must be learned at an
> early age. For example, my attempts to learn (and re-learn) several
> foreign languages have all failed.
>
> --
> Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
> PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
> Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
> Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

I think there is a lot to the early learning experience. Just try to teach an adult to throw a ball - near impossible. If you want the experience, try with your nondominant hand.

But I also see a mental aspect to this. Some people have the worldview that anything broken can be fixed or built, others just hit a dead stop, and I suspect that also develops at an early age.

When my kids were in elementary school they ended up getting off the bus and nobody was home, my wife and I had missed connections somehow. (today we'd be arrested for child abuse) Locked out of the house, they didn't give up in helplessness, they decided to pick the lock. Of course they jammed it and I had to replace it, and I was a little embarassed that an engineer's kid did that, but then I thought better of it later. They had a sense that it was possible, they had some vague idea of how to start trying, and they accepted the challenge rather than giving up.