Rocksolid Light

Welcome to novaBBS (click a section below)

mail  files  register  newsreader  groups  login

Message-ID:  

Spock: The odds of surviving another attack are 13562190123 to 1, Captain.


tech / rec.crafts.metalworking / Al-GMAW summary is correct?

SubjectAuthor
* Al-GMAW summary is correct?Richard Smith
`* Re: Al-GMAW summary is correct?Bob La Londe
 `* Re: Al-GMAW summary is correct?Richard Smith
  `* Re: Al-GMAW summary is correct?Bob La Londe
   +- Re: Al-GMAW summary is correct?Richard Smith
   +* Re: Al-GMAW summary is correct?Richard Smith
   |`* Re: Al-GMAW summary is correct?Bob La Londe
   | `* Re: Al-GMAW summary is correct?Richard Smith
   |  `* Re: Al-GMAW summary is correct?Bob La Londe
   |   `* Re: Al-GMAW summary is correct?Richard Smith
   |    `* Re: Al-GMAW summary is correct?Bob La Londe
   |     `* Re: Al-GMAW summary is correct?Richard Smith
   |      `* Re: Al-GMAW summary is correct?Gerry
   |       `* Re: Al-GMAW summary is correct?Richard Smith
   |        `* Re: Al-GMAW summary is correct?Bob La Londe
   |         `* Re: Al-GMAW summary is correct?David Billington
   |          `* Re: Al-GMAW summary is correct?Bob La Londe
   |           `* Re: Al-GMAW summary is correct?Richard Smith
   |            `* Re: Al-GMAW summary is correct?Bob La Londe
   |             `* Re: Al-GMAW summary is correct?Richard Smith
   |              `* Re: Al-GMAW summary is correct?Bob La Londe
   |               `- Re: Al-GMAW summary is correct?Jim Wilkins
   `- Re: Al-GMAW summary is correct?Richard Smith

1
Al-GMAW summary is correct?

<lymtoeqm3s.fsf@void.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=5074&group=rec.crafts.metalworking#5074

 copy link   Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!aioe.org!NR6cVADC5laEpWBPEQa+hA.user.46.165.242.91.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: nul...@void.com (Richard Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Al-GMAW summary is correct?
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 09:28:07 +0100
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID: <lymtoeqm3s.fsf@void.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Injection-Info: gioia.aioe.org; logging-data="55207"; posting-host="NR6cVADC5laEpWBPEQa+hA.user.gioia.aioe.org"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@aioe.org";
User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.1 (darwin)
Cancel-Lock: sha1:H6mTHXa1nSNRhbymsY67xyTT5p4=
X-Notice: Filtered by postfilter v. 0.9.2
 by: Richard Smith - Wed, 15 Sep 2021 08:28 UTC

Hello all

Copy of post to sci.engr.joining.welding ...

Using industrial 3-phase welding machine with "Constant Voltage" and
"Pulse", with pure Ar shielding gas and 1.2mm (47thou) 5183 wire
(Al-Mg-Mn).
On Al 5083 and 6062

Finding
* 10m/min and above (>=393ipm) - always spray transfer on CV
* <10m/min - always use pulse mode

I'm finding that optimum wire-feed-speed when in spray is
* faster than you hear a rasping from the wire-burn
* slower than gives extensive sooting of the weld
There's a narrow optimum wire-feed-speed where the weld flows in
smoothly, with a smooth arc, but below some "lot of heat" state which
gives the black soot (Mg from the alloy?).

In pulse I again think of the wire-feed-speed and trust the "synergic"
controls to do everything else.

At 10m/min, right at the bottom of the spray range (?), it seems you
can't trust the synergic and you have to significantly tune the
voltage.

How is that compared to what you know?

Rich S

Re: Al-GMAW summary is correct?

<shtjsf$kue$1@gioia.aioe.org>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=5079&group=rec.crafts.metalworking#5079

 copy link   Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!aioe.org!8O4CTVvGI43OLyHlA+QjDA.user.46.165.242.75.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: non...@none.com99 (Bob La Londe)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: Al-GMAW summary is correct?
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 13:08:45 -0700
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID: <shtjsf$kue$1@gioia.aioe.org>
References: <lymtoeqm3s.fsf@void.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Injection-Info: gioia.aioe.org; logging-data="21454"; posting-host="8O4CTVvGI43OLyHlA+QjDA.user.gioia.aioe.org"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@aioe.org";
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/78.14.0
X-Antivirus: AVG (VPS 210915-8, 9/15/2021), Outbound message
Content-Language: en-US
X-Notice: Filtered by postfilter v. 0.9.2
X-Antivirus-Status: Clean
 by: Bob La Londe - Wed, 15 Sep 2021 20:08 UTC

On 9/15/2021 1:28 AM, Richard Smith wrote:
> Hello all
>
> Copy of post to sci.engr.joining.welding ...
>
> Using industrial 3-phase welding machine with "Constant Voltage" and
> "Pulse", with pure Ar shielding gas and 1.2mm (47thou) 5183 wire
> (Al-Mg-Mn).
> On Al 5083 and 6062
>
> Finding
> * 10m/min and above (>=393ipm) - always spray transfer on CV
> * <10m/min - always use pulse mode
>
> I'm finding that optimum wire-feed-speed when in spray is
> * faster than you hear a rasping from the wire-burn
> * slower than gives extensive sooting of the weld
> There's a narrow optimum wire-feed-speed where the weld flows in
> smoothly, with a smooth arc, but below some "lot of heat" state which
> gives the black soot (Mg from the alloy?).
>
> In pulse I again think of the wire-feed-speed and trust the "synergic"
> controls to do everything else.
>
> At 10m/min, right at the bottom of the spray range (?), it seems you
> can't trust the synergic and you have to significantly tune the
> voltage.
>
> How is that compared to what you know?
>
> Rich S
>

MIG Spray arc aluminum with DC pulse? Is this correct?

I have only done a hundred feet or so of this type of bead. Maybe 200
feet at most. My experience is lacking. I have no broad breadth of
experience to draw from. I have a single phase DC MIG welder with a
spool gun I have used for this. It does not have pulse capability, but
I think some of what I have to add might help. My experience was that I
got a fair amount of burn back and tip slagging. I buy bulk import tips
for this reason. I just remove them and throw them away.

When trying to dial in the weld I would use all the factory suggested
settings and then I would have to increase the wire speed to get decent
continuous spray transfer. (nice smooth frying bacon sound) It worked
ok, but I overheated the metal and could only make short welds before
letting the base metal cool. I could get the job done, but I would have
to stitch and fill stacking my starts and stops.

I struggled with correct tip to work piece distance. I always wanted to
be closer than I should have been and I often started the arc to close
to the work piece. I did two things that helped a little bit. I pulled
the hood on my spool gun and shortened the tip holder so it was deeper
inside the hood, and rethreaded it so the tip would screw all the way
in. I clip the little ball off the end of the wire before EVERY
restart. The tip holder mod helped, but it may have contributed to
another problem. Even with fairly high (30-35 CFH) recommended flow
rate of argon I think I may not have been fully covering the HAZ when
welding because the hood was now closer to the weld. I dropped my spool
gun some time back and broke the internal tip holder. I have not
shortened it again since replacing that part. Instead I try to school
myself to maintain the recommended 3/4 inch (19mm) wire stick out.
Welds went ok, but I very recently learned two things that may help.

I need to be even further away from the weld on starts. This reduces
burn back. About 1 inch (25mm). As soon as the arc is established then
move up to 3/5 inch (19mm). The other thing is instead of increasing
wire speed I should turn down voltage low enough that the arc cuts out
and then slowly increase it until I get a decent continuous spray. This
latter should help with heat buildup in the work piece. I will probably
still have to stitch and fill. Its not a substitute for pulse for heat
management, but it should reduce the heat input a little.

I found no matter what I did when welding 5052 with 5356 I seemed to get
a lot of soot. Atleast when I was starting. Two things helped.
Getting the stick out distance correct, and adding a mesh inside the
hood to make the gas flow more homogenized. I still got soot, but not
as bad When welding 6061 with 4043 I was able to get almost, but not
quite zero soot.

I feel a little embarrassed sharing my experience with aluminum MIG
welding with an experienced pro such as yourself, but you have been
helpful to me in the past. I'll risk a little embarrassment if
something I can share will be helpful to you.

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

Re: Al-GMAW summary is correct?

<lyilz0ajul.fsf@void.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=5088&group=rec.crafts.metalworking#5088

 copy link   Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!aioe.org!NR6cVADC5laEpWBPEQa+hA.user.46.165.242.91.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: nul...@void.com (Richard Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: Al-GMAW summary is correct?
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 11:35:46 +0100
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID: <lyilz0ajul.fsf@void.com>
References: <lymtoeqm3s.fsf@void.com> <shtjsf$kue$1@gioia.aioe.org>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Injection-Info: gioia.aioe.org; logging-data="868"; posting-host="NR6cVADC5laEpWBPEQa+hA.user.gioia.aioe.org"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@aioe.org";
User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.1 (darwin)
Cancel-Lock: sha1:blsAtCGnOA5ERgwCSE+qx/3EHGE=
X-Notice: Filtered by postfilter v. 0.9.2
 by: Richard Smith - Thu, 16 Sep 2021 10:35 UTC

Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> writes:

> On 9/15/2021 1:28 AM, Richard Smith wrote:
>> Hello all
>>
>> Copy of post to sci.engr.joining.welding ...
>>
>> Using industrial 3-phase welding machine with "Constant Voltage" and
>> "Pulse", with pure Ar shielding gas and 1.2mm (47thou) 5183 wire
>> (Al-Mg-Mn).
>> On Al 5083 and 6062
>>
>> Finding
>> * 10m/min and above (>=393ipm) - always spray transfer on CV
>> * <10m/min - always use pulse mode
>>
>> I'm finding that optimum wire-feed-speed when in spray is
>> * faster than you hear a rasping from the wire-burn
>> * slower than gives extensive sooting of the weld
>> There's a narrow optimum wire-feed-speed where the weld flows in
>> smoothly, with a smooth arc, but below some "lot of heat" state which
>> gives the black soot (Mg from the alloy?).
>>
>> In pulse I again think of the wire-feed-speed and trust the "synergic"
>> controls to do everything else.
>>
>> At 10m/min, right at the bottom of the spray range (?), it seems you
>> can't trust the synergic and you have to significantly tune the
>> voltage.
>>
>> How is that compared to what you know?
>>
>> Rich S
>>
>
>
>
> MIG Spray arc aluminum with DC pulse? Is this correct?
>
> I have only done a hundred feet or so of this type of bead. Maybe 200
> feet at most. My experience is lacking. I have no broad breadth of
> experience to draw from. I have a single phase DC MIG welder with a
> spool gun I have used for this. It does not have pulse capability,
> but I think some of what I have to add might help. My experience was
> that I got a fair amount of burn back and tip slagging. I buy bulk
> import tips for this reason. I just remove them and throw them away.
>
> When trying to dial in the weld I would use all the factory suggested
> settings and then I would have to increase the wire speed to get
> decent continuous spray transfer. (nice smooth frying bacon sound)
> It worked ok, but I overheated the metal and could only make short
> welds before letting the base metal cool. I could get the job done,
> but I would have to stitch and fill stacking my starts and stops.
>
> I struggled with correct tip to work piece distance. I always wanted
> to be closer than I should have been and I often started the arc to
> close to the work piece. I did two things that helped a little bit.
> I pulled the hood on my spool gun and shortened the tip holder so it
> was deeper inside the hood, and rethreaded it so the tip would screw
> all the way in. I clip the little ball off the end of the wire before
> EVERY restart. The tip holder mod helped, but it may have contributed
> to another problem. Even with fairly high (30-35 CFH) recommended
> flow rate of argon I think I may not have been fully covering the HAZ
> when welding because the hood was now closer to the weld. I dropped
> my spool gun some time back and broke the internal tip holder. I have
> not shortened it again since replacing that part. Instead I try to
> school myself to maintain the recommended 3/4 inch (19mm) wire stick
> out. Welds went ok, but I very recently learned two things that may
> help.
>
> I need to be even further away from the weld on starts. This reduces
> burn back. About 1 inch (25mm). As soon as the arc is established
> then move up to 3/5 inch (19mm). The other thing is instead of
> increasing wire speed I should turn down voltage low enough that the
> arc cuts out and then slowly increase it until I get a decent
> continuous spray. This latter should help with heat buildup in the
> work piece. I will probably still have to stitch and fill. Its not a
> substitute for pulse for heat management, but it should reduce the
> heat input a little.
>
> I found no matter what I did when welding 5052 with 5356 I seemed to
> get a lot of soot. Atleast when I was starting. Two things
> helped. Getting the stick out distance correct, and adding a mesh
> inside the hood to make the gas flow more homogenized. I still got
> soot, but not as bad When welding 6061 with 4043 I was able to get
> almost, but not quite zero soot.
>
> I feel a little embarrassed sharing my experience with aluminum MIG
> welding with an experienced pro such as yourself, but you have been
> helpful to me in the past. I'll risk a little embarrassment if
> something I can share will be helpful to you.

It's good experience you tally here.

"Experienced pro" - LOL, not really ;-) But thanks anyway :-)

I've never used a spool gun. A friend says it is very advantageous
and simplifies things a lot, at the expense of a bigger gun and having
to swap (small) spools frequently.

Only used convention MIG machine with "push" feed from the wire-feeder
Apparently is manageable with stiff higher-strength 5000-series
(Al-Mg) wire and a slippery polymer liner in the harness (hose).
Mainly get to just squeeze the trigger and get the run going - nothing
"preparatory".

I've found the one about stick-out. Things do run smoother with about
20mm (3/4inch) of stick-out - you sense things getting smoother is you
pull back from very close up. I have been doing some
restricted-access awkward geometries, so have not been able to
optimise torch angles, stick-out, etc. at-will. But yes, recognise
what you say.

Stick-out - on steel I have a long shroud for spray transfer. Longer
electrical contact-tip-to-work distance (cttwd) without long
stand-off from work to shroud, which would risking shielding
shortcoming especially if say draughts through open doorway.
Smoother weld at no disadvantage.
Assume for Al that same thing - long shroud - might be a good way of
getting longer cttwd.
On steel, long "spray" shroud also works for pulse, as I have seen.
Can't say for Al.

Shroud length is the easier, freely changeable, way to adjust cttwd?

I have had run-ins with heat build-up and general collapse of weld
area, but in the main, run ahead of own welding heat (?) and don't
meet the issue.
I have had to come off the trigger as I've seen the weld-pool growing
and collapse would have been imminent, though, for sure.

I was saying about spray and pulse...

It seems to me that as in 100% spray at >=10m/min - why Pulse?
Pulse is surely a short time quantum of spray, then a background arc
with no metal transfer until the average power (in Watts) of the arc
is what you want it to be.
When the heat you want is high enough it's obtained by continuously
being in spray (zero "background" needed), what is Pulse doing apart
from adding complexity for no purpose ??? (genuine question).
As go to less than 10m/min - with 1.2mm wire - need an arc power which
is lower and obtained by Pulse - with a quantum of spray then a
dilute-down with a quantum of background arc, ever-reducing the
spray-to-background as you go to lower wire-feed-speeds?
As it seems to me. ???

Seriously, because at Leigh Quay Boat Services 2, they always used
Pulse (fierce "buzz"), and got pretty angry when I used spray (smooth
hiss - anyone could tell at a distance I was "spraying"). On trawler
wheelhouses, with the Al-plate thicknesses, you were well above the
spray transition in spray's "galloping-ground".
Their welds seemed cold and and messy - but quick because they weren't
having to control heat. They "whipped" back-and-forth to build-up the
weld. But annoying the amount of time I was there having to smooth
their welds with an angle-grinder.
I wasn't sure the fusion was there? "Not controlling heat" came at a
way unacceptable price?
Whereas spray was smooth and you simply ran a stringer-bead straight,
zero manipulation.
I switched to spray after getting my arm pock-marked with burns and
saying "enough is enough". A "blob" ejected per pulse = a lot of Al
blobs building up on the floor.
Spray - teeny "pops" of little sparks, but 99.9something percent of
metal went in the weld - as it should.

When I said "CV" I meant "constant voltage" - hopefully volts and amps
trace "as flat as a billiard table". For spray.
Totally separate issue - pulse.
Which is rapidly doing some fly-by-wire timed cycle.
But done so well, you see the same weld as in spray (shape, fusion,
etc.) continue on down to lower thicknesses.

All as seems to me...

???

Rich S

Re: Al-GMAW summary is correct?

<shvt8u$1sfr$1@gioia.aioe.org>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=5091&group=rec.crafts.metalworking#5091

 copy link   Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Path: i2pn2.org!rocksolid2!i2pn.org!aioe.org!8O4CTVvGI43OLyHlA+QjDA.user.46.165.242.75.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: non...@none.com99 (Bob La Londe)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: Al-GMAW summary is correct?
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 10:01:17 -0700
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID: <shvt8u$1sfr$1@gioia.aioe.org>
References: <lymtoeqm3s.fsf@void.com> <shtjsf$kue$1@gioia.aioe.org>
<lyilz0ajul.fsf@void.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Injection-Info: gioia.aioe.org; logging-data="61947"; posting-host="8O4CTVvGI43OLyHlA+QjDA.user.gioia.aioe.org"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@aioe.org";
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/78.14.0
X-Antivirus-Status: Clean
X-Antivirus: AVG (VPS 210916-2, 9/16/2021), Outbound message
X-Notice: Filtered by postfilter v. 0.9.2
Content-Language: en-US
 by: Bob La Londe - Thu, 16 Sep 2021 17:01 UTC

On 9/16/2021 3:35 AM, Richard Smith wrote:
> Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> writes:
>
>> On 9/15/2021 1:28 AM, Richard Smith wrote:
>>> Hello all
>>>
>>> Copy of post to sci.engr.joining.welding ...
>>>
>>> Using industrial 3-phase welding machine with "Constant Voltage" and
>>> "Pulse", with pure Ar shielding gas and 1.2mm (47thou) 5183 wire
>>> (Al-Mg-Mn).
>>> On Al 5083 and 6062
>>>
>>> Finding
>>> * 10m/min and above (>=393ipm) - always spray transfer on CV
>>> * <10m/min - always use pulse mode
>>>
>>> I'm finding that optimum wire-feed-speed when in spray is
>>> * faster than you hear a rasping from the wire-burn
>>> * slower than gives extensive sooting of the weld
>>> There's a narrow optimum wire-feed-speed where the weld flows in
>>> smoothly, with a smooth arc, but below some "lot of heat" state which
>>> gives the black soot (Mg from the alloy?).
>>>
>>> In pulse I again think of the wire-feed-speed and trust the "synergic"
>>> controls to do everything else.
>>>
>>> At 10m/min, right at the bottom of the spray range (?), it seems you
>>> can't trust the synergic and you have to significantly tune the
>>> voltage.
>>>
>>> How is that compared to what you know?
>>>
>>> Rich S
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> MIG Spray arc aluminum with DC pulse? Is this correct?
>>
>> I have only done a hundred feet or so of this type of bead. Maybe 200
>> feet at most. My experience is lacking. I have no broad breadth of
>> experience to draw from. I have a single phase DC MIG welder with a
>> spool gun I have used for this. It does not have pulse capability,
>> but I think some of what I have to add might help. My experience was
>> that I got a fair amount of burn back and tip slagging. I buy bulk
>> import tips for this reason. I just remove them and throw them away.
>>
>> When trying to dial in the weld I would use all the factory suggested
>> settings and then I would have to increase the wire speed to get
>> decent continuous spray transfer. (nice smooth frying bacon sound)
>> It worked ok, but I overheated the metal and could only make short
>> welds before letting the base metal cool. I could get the job done,
>> but I would have to stitch and fill stacking my starts and stops.
>>
>> I struggled with correct tip to work piece distance. I always wanted
>> to be closer than I should have been and I often started the arc to
>> close to the work piece. I did two things that helped a little bit.
>> I pulled the hood on my spool gun and shortened the tip holder so it
>> was deeper inside the hood, and rethreaded it so the tip would screw
>> all the way in. I clip the little ball off the end of the wire before
>> EVERY restart. The tip holder mod helped, but it may have contributed
>> to another problem. Even with fairly high (30-35 CFH) recommended
>> flow rate of argon I think I may not have been fully covering the HAZ
>> when welding because the hood was now closer to the weld. I dropped
>> my spool gun some time back and broke the internal tip holder. I have
>> not shortened it again since replacing that part. Instead I try to
>> school myself to maintain the recommended 3/4 inch (19mm) wire stick
>> out. Welds went ok, but I very recently learned two things that may
>> help.
>>
>> I need to be even further away from the weld on starts. This reduces
>> burn back. About 1 inch (25mm). As soon as the arc is established
>> then move up to 3/5 inch (19mm). The other thing is instead of
>> increasing wire speed I should turn down voltage low enough that the
>> arc cuts out and then slowly increase it until I get a decent
>> continuous spray. This latter should help with heat buildup in the
>> work piece. I will probably still have to stitch and fill. Its not a
>> substitute for pulse for heat management, but it should reduce the
>> heat input a little.
>>
>> I found no matter what I did when welding 5052 with 5356 I seemed to
>> get a lot of soot. Atleast when I was starting. Two things
>> helped. Getting the stick out distance correct, and adding a mesh
>> inside the hood to make the gas flow more homogenized. I still got
>> soot, but not as bad When welding 6061 with 4043 I was able to get
>> almost, but not quite zero soot.
>>
>> I feel a little embarrassed sharing my experience with aluminum MIG
>> welding with an experienced pro such as yourself, but you have been
>> helpful to me in the past. I'll risk a little embarrassment if
>> something I can share will be helpful to you.
>
> It's good experience you tally here.
>
> "Experienced pro" - LOL, not really ;-) But thanks anyway :-)
>
> I've never used a spool gun. A friend says it is very advantageous
> and simplifies things a lot, at the expense of a bigger gun and having
> to swap (small) spools frequently.
>
> Only used convention MIG machine with "push" feed from the wire-feeder
> Apparently is manageable with stiff higher-strength 5000-series
> (Al-Mg) wire and a slippery polymer liner in the harness (hose).
> Mainly get to just squeeze the trigger and get the run going - nothing
> "preparatory".
>
> I've found the one about stick-out. Things do run smoother with about
> 20mm (3/4inch) of stick-out - you sense things getting smoother is you
> pull back from very close up. I have been doing some
> restricted-access awkward geometries, so have not been able to
> optimise torch angles, stick-out, etc. at-will. But yes, recognise
> what you say.
>
> Stick-out - on steel I have a long shroud for spray transfer. Longer
> electrical contact-tip-to-work distance (cttwd) without long
> stand-off from work to shroud, which would risking shielding
> shortcoming especially if say draughts through open doorway.
> Smoother weld at no disadvantage.
> Assume for Al that same thing - long shroud - might be a good way of
> getting longer cttwd.
> On steel, long "spray" shroud also works for pulse, as I have seen.
> Can't say for Al.
>
> Shroud length is the easier, freely changeable, way to adjust cttwd?
>
> I have had run-ins with heat build-up and general collapse of weld
> area, but in the main, run ahead of own welding heat (?) and don't
> meet the issue.
> I have had to come off the trigger as I've seen the weld-pool growing
> and collapse would have been imminent, though, for sure.
>
> I was saying about spray and pulse...
>
> It seems to me that as in 100% spray at >=10m/min - why Pulse?
> Pulse is surely a short time quantum of spray, then a background arc
> with no metal transfer until the average power (in Watts) of the arc
> is what you want it to be.
> When the heat you want is high enough it's obtained by continuously
> being in spray (zero "background" needed), what is Pulse doing apart
> from adding complexity for no purpose ??? (genuine question).
> As go to less than 10m/min - with 1.2mm wire - need an arc power which
> is lower and obtained by Pulse - with a quantum of spray then a
> dilute-down with a quantum of background arc, ever-reducing the
> spray-to-background as you go to lower wire-feed-speeds?
> As it seems to me. ???
>
> Seriously, because at Leigh Quay Boat Services 2, they always used
> Pulse (fierce "buzz"), and got pretty angry when I used spray (smooth
> hiss - anyone could tell at a distance I was "spraying"). On trawler
> wheelhouses, with the Al-plate thicknesses, you were well above the
> spray transition in spray's "galloping-ground".
> Their welds seemed cold and and messy - but quick because they weren't
> having to control heat. They "whipped" back-and-forth to build-up the
> weld. But annoying the amount of time I was there having to smooth
> their welds with an angle-grinder.
> I wasn't sure the fusion was there? "Not controlling heat" came at a
> way unacceptable price?
> Whereas spray was smooth and you simply ran a stringer-bead straight,
> zero manipulation.
> I switched to spray after getting my arm pock-marked with burns and
> saying "enough is enough". A "blob" ejected per pulse = a lot of Al
> blobs building up on the floor.
> Spray - teeny "pops" of little sparks, but 99.9something percent of
> metal went in the weld - as it should.
>
> When I said "CV" I meant "constant voltage" - hopefully volts and amps
> trace "as flat as a billiard table". For spray.
> Totally separate issue - pulse.
> Which is rapidly doing some fly-by-wire timed cycle.
> But done so well, you see the same weld as in spray (shape, fusion,
> etc.) continue on down to lower thicknesses.
>
> All as seems to me...
>
> ???
>
> Rich S
>


Click here to read the complete article
Re: Al-GMAW summary is correct?

<ly4kak6ijx.fsf@richards-air-2.home>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=5096&group=rec.crafts.metalworking#5096

 copy link   Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!aioe.org!SitsikrlICv/kJ0vivirqg.user.46.165.242.91.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: nul...@void.com (Richard Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: Al-GMAW summary is correct?
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 03:29:38 +0100
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID: <ly4kak6ijx.fsf@richards-air-2.home>
References: <lymtoeqm3s.fsf@void.com> <shtjsf$kue$1@gioia.aioe.org> <lyilz0ajul.fsf@void.com> <shvt8u$1sfr$1@gioia.aioe.org>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Injection-Info: gioia.aioe.org; logging-data="34741"; posting-host="SitsikrlICv/kJ0vivirqg.user.gioia.aioe.org"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@aioe.org";
User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.1 (darwin)
Cancel-Lock: sha1:+YByfpmcycUDTi8LjUpl8Ph2OoU=
X-Notice: Filtered by postfilter v. 0.9.2
 by: Richard Smith - Fri, 17 Sep 2021 02:29 UTC

Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> writes:

> ... ... One of the biggest things I have
> heard about welding with a regular push only setup is to take the time
> to plan your weld and layout your stinger (and if necessary move your
> machine) so that it will be as straight as possible with no sharp
> turns through the entire weld. Also use as short of a stinger as you
> can. ...

Yes.
Exactly so.
You instinctively do this.
Even with a good setup, you get to like the smooth seems-easy work, so
you still do it to reduce the chance of annoying intrusions in your
work flow ever happening.

In that vein...
They say have a pocket full of Al contactor-tips (bigger wire hole
dia. than for steel) because you'll get through them at some rate.
Commercially welding, I've gone like 2 or 3 days on the same
contactor-tip.
Frequently stopping and "cleaning-out" the tip with oxy-acetylene
torch cleaning wires makes that happen.
Filing the outer end smooth.
On steel contactor tips wear out.
On Al they clog in.
(?)
So you are opening up the orifice in the tip for Al.

You'd have to intervene anyway, changing tips.
You like trouble-free welding, so cleaning the shroud and tip
frequently is an extra task yes, but you run trouble-free in-between.
Valuable if for no other reason that avoiding welder-the-person
fatigue. Smoothly working from break to break, pacing the work.

As seems to me...

Re: Al-GMAW summary is correct?

<lyzgsc53ou.fsf@richards-air-2.home>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=5097&group=rec.crafts.metalworking#5097

 copy link   Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!aioe.org!SitsikrlICv/kJ0vivirqg.user.46.165.242.91.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: nul...@void.com (Richard Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: Al-GMAW summary is correct?
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 03:36:01 +0100
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID: <lyzgsc53ou.fsf@richards-air-2.home>
References: <lymtoeqm3s.fsf@void.com> <shtjsf$kue$1@gioia.aioe.org> <lyilz0ajul.fsf@void.com> <shvt8u$1sfr$1@gioia.aioe.org>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Injection-Info: gioia.aioe.org; logging-data="37662"; posting-host="SitsikrlICv/kJ0vivirqg.user.gioia.aioe.org"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@aioe.org";
User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.1 (darwin)
Cancel-Lock: sha1:2USlCl2+UUBy6Z+a4IvKAjq3/aM=
X-Notice: Filtered by postfilter v. 0.9.2
 by: Richard Smith - Fri, 17 Sep 2021 02:36 UTC

Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> writes:

> ...
>
> I really do not know what advantage pulse adds when phrased like that
> in this application. I always thought it was to help manage heat
> input to avoid drop out so you could make longer welds without having
> to stop. Such as welding the seams of an aluminum boat hull. Many
> rough finish light cheap boat hull seams I have seen have a distorted
> stack of dimes look that was very unlikely to have been done with TIG
> due to the low relative cost of the boat and the significantly slower
> (yes I am aware there may be exceptions) TIG process. I had assumed
> (perhaps incorrectly) that it was done with a pulsed MIG welder.
>
> ...

There is a pulse-on-pulse as I've heard about which gives the
"stack-of-dimes" appearance when MIG/GMAW of Ali.
TIG appearance with MIG.
Never seen in - never met one.
Cannot make any comment about
- how it works
- how it's set-up
- the pro's and con's.
- etc.

Both my spray and pulse welds are smooth beads from unmanipulated
straight stringer bead progression.

Re: Al-GMAW summary is correct?

<lyv92z6hqd.fsf@richards-air-2.home>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=5098&group=rec.crafts.metalworking#5098

 copy link   Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!aioe.org!SitsikrlICv/kJ0vivirqg.user.46.165.242.91.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: nul...@void.com (Richard Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: Al-GMAW summary is correct?
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 03:47:22 +0100
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID: <lyv92z6hqd.fsf@richards-air-2.home>
References: <lymtoeqm3s.fsf@void.com> <shtjsf$kue$1@gioia.aioe.org> <lyilz0ajul.fsf@void.com> <shvt8u$1sfr$1@gioia.aioe.org>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Injection-Info: gioia.aioe.org; logging-data="42989"; posting-host="SitsikrlICv/kJ0vivirqg.user.gioia.aioe.org"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@aioe.org";
User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.1 (darwin)
X-Notice: Filtered by postfilter v. 0.9.2
Cancel-Lock: sha1:AZsBpiVgchZj3NRH0yvWl/cjC90=
 by: Richard Smith - Fri, 17 Sep 2021 02:47 UTC

Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> writes:

> ...
>
> I do not "know" this to be a fact. However, a pulsed MIG with
> push/pull setup is the often sought after & to expensive to acquire
> machine of home shop fabricators and hobbyists seeking to weld
> aluminum sheets faster. I am not sure if its a real improvement or
> just a (false grail)/(grass is greener) thing due to its much higher
> cost.
>
> ...

Seen push-pull guns in British Columbia, Canada.
Lot of Ali boats and other Ali applications.
Some locations had and continued to use spool-guns.
Others had taken to push-pull guns.
Colleges provided which one was the local practice.
Apparently push-pull guns have this "holy grail" of unconditional
effortless Ali MIG welding.
Friends who are long retired say push-pull for Ali used to be achieved
by having an air-motor driving rolls in the torch.
Long before electronics.
Makes sense - presumably they pulled on the wire in proportion to the
air pressure supplied. Air motors tend to be constant-torque.
Power electronics and data electronics make for "modern" push-pull
guns having electically powered rolls in the torch.
As you'll know...

Another I can't comment on further though.

Re: Al-GMAW summary is correct?

<si2mar$o02$1@gioia.aioe.org>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=5104&group=rec.crafts.metalworking#5104

 copy link   Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!aioe.org!8O4CTVvGI43OLyHlA+QjDA.user.46.165.242.75.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: non...@none.com99 (Bob La Londe)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: Al-GMAW summary is correct?
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 11:21:14 -0700
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID: <si2mar$o02$1@gioia.aioe.org>
References: <lymtoeqm3s.fsf@void.com> <shtjsf$kue$1@gioia.aioe.org>
<lyilz0ajul.fsf@void.com> <shvt8u$1sfr$1@gioia.aioe.org>
<lyzgsc53ou.fsf@richards-air-2.home>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Injection-Info: gioia.aioe.org; logging-data="24578"; posting-host="8O4CTVvGI43OLyHlA+QjDA.user.gioia.aioe.org"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@aioe.org";
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/78.14.0
X-Notice: Filtered by postfilter v. 0.9.2
X-Antivirus: AVG (VPS 210917-2, 9/17/2021), Outbound message
Content-Language: en-US
X-Antivirus-Status: Clean
 by: Bob La Londe - Fri, 17 Sep 2021 18:21 UTC

On 9/16/2021 7:36 PM, Richard Smith wrote:
> Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> writes:
>
>> ...
>>
>> I really do not know what advantage pulse adds when phrased like that
>> in this application. I always thought it was to help manage heat
>> input to avoid drop out so you could make longer welds without having
>> to stop. Such as welding the seams of an aluminum boat hull. Many
>> rough finish light cheap boat hull seams I have seen have a distorted
>> stack of dimes look that was very unlikely to have been done with TIG
>> due to the low relative cost of the boat and the significantly slower
>> (yes I am aware there may be exceptions) TIG process. I had assumed
>> (perhaps incorrectly) that it was done with a pulsed MIG welder.
>>
>> ...
>
> There is a pulse-on-pulse as I've heard about which gives the
> "stack-of-dimes" appearance when MIG/GMAW of Ali.
> TIG appearance with MIG.
> Never seen in - never met one.
> Cannot make any comment about
> - how it works
> - how it's set-up
> - the pro's and con's.
> - etc.
>
> Both my spray and pulse welds are smooth beads from unmanipulated
> straight stringer bead progression.
>

My spray aluminum welds look like somebody laid down a series of soft
turds. I'm just happy if I can see visible fusion in both toes.

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

Re: Al-GMAW summary is correct?

<lyzgsahbsn.fsf@void.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=5109&group=rec.crafts.metalworking#5109

 copy link   Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!aioe.org!SitsikrlICv/kJ0vivirqg.user.46.165.242.91.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: nul...@void.com (Richard Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: Al-GMAW summary is correct?
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2021 03:12:24 +0100
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID: <lyzgsahbsn.fsf@void.com>
References: <lymtoeqm3s.fsf@void.com> <shtjsf$kue$1@gioia.aioe.org> <lyilz0ajul.fsf@void.com> <shvt8u$1sfr$1@gioia.aioe.org> <lyzgsc53ou.fsf@richards-air-2.home> <si2mar$o02$1@gioia.aioe.org>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Injection-Info: gioia.aioe.org; logging-data="42562"; posting-host="SitsikrlICv/kJ0vivirqg.user.gioia.aioe.org"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@aioe.org";
User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.1 (darwin)
Cancel-Lock: sha1:gGTK+VMOnWCTTvEZzbViGdZC+fU=
X-Notice: Filtered by postfilter v. 0.9.2
 by: Richard Smith - Sat, 18 Sep 2021 02:12 UTC

> ... I'm just happy if I can see visible fusion in both toes.

As far as my experience goes; you can with Al-GMAW in spray get
fillets with a 45deg triangular shape and flat fillet face.

I'm warned from Canada that "good fusion" as you'd look for with steel
- what is really meant is plenty of weld-pool fluidity let us make
that clear - can be a liablity with costs on Al.

That fractures are more likely on Al welds which look very "fluid"
and smooth. As warned by breaking tack-welds and temporary welds for
dogging-together plates, etc. Likely also being there in the
"production" welds.
Keeping heat levels down in Al is a good thing. Else strength drops.

Al is "Face-Centred-Cubic" (FCC) crystal structure so never shows
brittleness. My assumption stated here without consulting with anyone
else is that weld flaws and defects cannot kick-off brittle fractures
like they can with steel.
Genuinely - ???
Obviously (?) though, in a highly cyclically stressed structure they
could be the immediate initiation location for fatigue cracks?
But if you grain-grow the Al and lose strength, you could get cracks
anyway.
So nett - apparently keep heat down in Al.

I find with my fillets that if I turn down the heat at all by a tiny
fraction, you immediately fall out of "smooth fillet" and get
something lumpy. Implying the conditions used are very very close to
the lower limit, and the inference is the Al cannot be dwelling at
temperature.

I wish I could strength-test my welds. Make samples and do one of my
strength measurement tests.
My welds are considered to look as solid.
I wish I could know that by measurement.

Your welds...
You mean they are smooth but highly convex?
That would to an extent mean more heat input as you have melted more
metal into place. More metal melted must mean more kJ/mm, (heat per
unit length).
If you turned up the power - more Amps and Volts - and got a flat
fillet surface in a faster weld run, you could have no more heat
input?

BTW - Al welds run fast, that's for sure. When your reference is
working with steel.

Re: Al-GMAW summary is correct?

<si7pmr$1dbl$1@gioia.aioe.org>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=5113&group=rec.crafts.metalworking#5113

 copy link   Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!aioe.org!8O4CTVvGI43OLyHlA+QjDA.user.46.165.242.75.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: non...@none.com99 (Bob La Londe)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: Al-GMAW summary is correct?
Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2021 09:49:31 -0700
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID: <si7pmr$1dbl$1@gioia.aioe.org>
References: <lymtoeqm3s.fsf@void.com> <shtjsf$kue$1@gioia.aioe.org>
<lyilz0ajul.fsf@void.com> <shvt8u$1sfr$1@gioia.aioe.org>
<lyzgsc53ou.fsf@richards-air-2.home> <si2mar$o02$1@gioia.aioe.org>
<lyzgsahbsn.fsf@void.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Injection-Info: gioia.aioe.org; logging-data="46453"; posting-host="8O4CTVvGI43OLyHlA+QjDA.user.gioia.aioe.org"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@aioe.org";
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/78.14.0
Content-Language: en-US
X-Antivirus: AVG (VPS 210919-2, 9/19/2021), Outbound message
X-Notice: Filtered by postfilter v. 0.9.2
X-Antivirus-Status: Clean
 by: Bob La Londe - Sun, 19 Sep 2021 16:49 UTC

On 9/17/2021 7:12 PM, Richard Smith wrote:
>> ... I'm just happy if I can see visible fusion in both toes.
>
> As far as my experience goes; you can with Al-GMAW in spray get
> fillets with a 45deg triangular shape and flat fillet face.
>
> I'm warned from Canada that "good fusion" as you'd look for with steel
> - what is really meant is plenty of weld-pool fluidity let us make
> that clear - can be a liablity with costs on Al.
>
> That fractures are more likely on Al welds which look very "fluid"
> and smooth. As warned by breaking tack-welds and temporary welds for
> dogging-together plates, etc. Likely also being there in the
> "production" welds.
> Keeping heat levels down in Al is a good thing. Else strength drops.
>
> Al is "Face-Centred-Cubic" (FCC) crystal structure so never shows
> brittleness. My assumption stated here without consulting with anyone
> else is that weld flaws and defects cannot kick-off brittle fractures
> like they can with steel.
> Genuinely - ???
> Obviously (?) though, in a highly cyclically stressed structure they
> could be the immediate initiation location for fatigue cracks?
> But if you grain-grow the Al and lose strength, you could get cracks
> anyway.
> So nett - apparently keep heat down in Al.
>
> I find with my fillets that if I turn down the heat at all by a tiny
> fraction, you immediately fall out of "smooth fillet" and get
> something lumpy. Implying the conditions used are very very close to
> the lower limit, and the inference is the Al cannot be dwelling at
> temperature.
>
> I wish I could strength-test my welds. Make samples and do one of my
> strength measurement tests.
> My welds are considered to look as solid.
> I wish I could know that by measurement.
>
> Your welds...
> You mean they are smooth but highly convex?
> That would to an extent mean more heat input as you have melted more
> metal into place. More metal melted must mean more kJ/mm, (heat per
> unit length).
> If you turned up the power - more Amps and Volts - and got a flat
> fillet surface in a faster weld run, you could have no more heat
> input?
>
> BTW - Al welds run fast, that's for sure. When your reference is
> working with steel.
>

No. I mean my aluminum welds look like crap.

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

Re: Al-GMAW summary is correct?

<lytuigs4fw.fsf@richards-air-2.home>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=5119&group=rec.crafts.metalworking#5119

 copy link   Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!aioe.org!SitsikrlICv/kJ0vivirqg.user.46.165.242.91.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: nul...@void.com (Richard Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: Al-GMAW summary is correct?
Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2021 21:20:19 +0100
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID: <lytuigs4fw.fsf@richards-air-2.home>
References: <lymtoeqm3s.fsf@void.com> <shtjsf$kue$1@gioia.aioe.org> <lyilz0ajul.fsf@void.com> <shvt8u$1sfr$1@gioia.aioe.org> <lyzgsc53ou.fsf@richards-air-2.home> <si2mar$o02$1@gioia.aioe.org> <lyzgsahbsn.fsf@void.com> <si7pmr$1dbl$1@gioia.aioe.org>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Injection-Info: gioia.aioe.org; logging-data="39480"; posting-host="SitsikrlICv/kJ0vivirqg.user.gioia.aioe.org"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@aioe.org";
User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.1 (darwin)
X-Notice: Filtered by postfilter v. 0.9.2
Cancel-Lock: sha1:yBBSIzfgeOIdXTY19IilfP81u9I=
 by: Richard Smith - Sun, 19 Sep 2021 20:20 UTC

Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> writes:

> On 9/17/2021 7:12 PM, Richard Smith wrote:
>>> ... I'm just happy if I can see visible fusion in both toes.
>>
>> ...
>> working with steel.
>>
>
>
> No. I mean my aluminum welds look like crap.

Ahhh - OK... I tend to be a bit of an optimist.

That should not be the case.
Could you manage an photos?

My impression is the welds go in just right, but that that "good
envelope" is very narrow. That the "easy" is a bit illusory...

Re: Al-GMAW summary is correct?

<siaj01$1tp5$1@gioia.aioe.org>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=5124&group=rec.crafts.metalworking#5124

 copy link   Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!aioe.org!8O4CTVvGI43OLyHlA+QjDA.user.46.165.242.75.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: non...@none.com99 (Bob La Londe)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: Al-GMAW summary is correct?
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2021 11:13:19 -0700
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID: <siaj01$1tp5$1@gioia.aioe.org>
References: <lymtoeqm3s.fsf@void.com> <shtjsf$kue$1@gioia.aioe.org>
<lyilz0ajul.fsf@void.com> <shvt8u$1sfr$1@gioia.aioe.org>
<lyzgsc53ou.fsf@richards-air-2.home> <si2mar$o02$1@gioia.aioe.org>
<lyzgsahbsn.fsf@void.com> <si7pmr$1dbl$1@gioia.aioe.org>
<lytuigs4fw.fsf@richards-air-2.home>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Injection-Info: gioia.aioe.org; logging-data="63269"; posting-host="8O4CTVvGI43OLyHlA+QjDA.user.gioia.aioe.org"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@aioe.org";
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/78.14.0
X-Antivirus-Status: Clean
X-Notice: Filtered by postfilter v. 0.9.2
X-Antivirus: AVG (VPS 210920-4, 9/20/2021), Outbound message
Content-Language: en-US
 by: Bob La Londe - Mon, 20 Sep 2021 18:13 UTC

On 9/19/2021 1:20 PM, Richard Smith wrote:
> Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> writes:
>
>> On 9/17/2021 7:12 PM, Richard Smith wrote:
>>>> ... I'm just happy if I can see visible fusion in both toes.
>>>
>>> ...
>>> working with steel.
>>>
>>
>>
>> No. I mean my aluminum welds look like crap.
>
> Ahhh - OK... I tend to be a bit of an optimist.
>
> That should not be the case.
> Could you manage an photos?
>
> My impression is the welds go in just right, but that that "good
> envelope" is very narrow. That the "easy" is a bit illusory...
>

LOL. Yep. Forever the optimist. I've actually found I get my best
aluminum welds by doing some research on feed. Making some practice
cold runs on coupons, then hot runs. Then adjusting and more practice
hot runs. Then cold runs on the part and finally welding my parts. I
actually weld so infrequently that muscle memory is totally forgotten by
the next time I need to weld a part.

Given that one of my wishful plans is to make a couple aluminum boats I
guess I am an optimist too.

Now I just need a 24 foot (~7-8 meter) sheet metal brake. LOL.

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

Re: Al-GMAW summary is correct?

<ly4kafnlfl.fsf@richards-air-2.home>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=5125&group=rec.crafts.metalworking#5125

 copy link   Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!aioe.org!SitsikrlICv/kJ0vivirqg.user.46.165.242.91.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: nul...@void.com (Richard Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: Al-GMAW summary is correct?
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2021 19:36:46 +0100
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID: <ly4kafnlfl.fsf@richards-air-2.home>
References: <lymtoeqm3s.fsf@void.com> <shtjsf$kue$1@gioia.aioe.org> <lyilz0ajul.fsf@void.com> <shvt8u$1sfr$1@gioia.aioe.org> <lyzgsc53ou.fsf@richards-air-2.home> <si2mar$o02$1@gioia.aioe.org> <lyzgsahbsn.fsf@void.com> <si7pmr$1dbl$1@gioia.aioe.org> <lytuigs4fw.fsf@richards-air-2.home> <siaj01$1tp5$1@gioia.aioe.org>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Injection-Info: gioia.aioe.org; logging-data="17498"; posting-host="SitsikrlICv/kJ0vivirqg.user.gioia.aioe.org"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@aioe.org";
User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.1 (darwin)
X-Notice: Filtered by postfilter v. 0.9.2
Cancel-Lock: sha1:2lBtPH3vf62zoS272fzyGvmhNPs=
 by: Richard Smith - Mon, 20 Sep 2021 18:36 UTC

Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> writes:

> On 9/19/2021 1:20 PM, Richard Smith wrote:
>> Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> writes:
>>
>>> On 9/17/2021 7:12 PM, Richard Smith wrote:
>>>>> ... I'm just happy if I can see visible fusion in both toes.
>>>>
>>>> ...
>>>> working with steel.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> No. I mean my aluminum welds look like crap.
>>
>> Ahhh - OK... I tend to be a bit of an optimist.
>>
>> That should not be the case.
>> Could you manage an photos?
>>
>> My impression is the welds go in just right, but that that "good
>> envelope" is very narrow. That the "easy" is a bit illusory...
>>
>
>
> LOL. Yep. Forever the optimist. I've actually found I get my best
> aluminum welds by doing some research on feed. Making some practice
> cold runs on coupons, then hot runs. Then adjusting and more practice
> hot runs. Then cold runs on the part and finally welding my parts. I
> actually weld so infrequently that muscle memory is totally forgotten
> by the next time I need to weld a part.
>
> Given that one of my wishful plans is to make a couple aluminum boats
> I guess I am an optimist too.
>
> Now I just need a 24 foot (~7-8 meter) sheet metal brake. LOL.

LOL. Thumbs-up

Re: Al-GMAW summary is correct?

<mtkikg95csh9i0ousovd87ci57g9k13l9q@4ax.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=5131&group=rec.crafts.metalworking#5131

 copy link   Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder6.news.weretis.net!news.misty.com!border2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!buffer2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!news.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2021 22:43:28 -0500
From: geraldrm...@yahoo.ca (Gerry)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: Al-GMAW summary is correct?
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2021 23:43:23 -0400
Message-ID: <mtkikg95csh9i0ousovd87ci57g9k13l9q@4ax.com>
References: <lymtoeqm3s.fsf@void.com> <shtjsf$kue$1@gioia.aioe.org> <lyilz0ajul.fsf@void.com> <shvt8u$1sfr$1@gioia.aioe.org> <lyzgsc53ou.fsf@richards-air-2.home> <si2mar$o02$1@gioia.aioe.org> <lyzgsahbsn.fsf@void.com> <si7pmr$1dbl$1@gioia.aioe.org> <lytuigs4fw.fsf@richards-air-2.home> <siaj01$1tp5$1@gioia.aioe.org> <ly4kafnlfl.fsf@richards-air-2.home>
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 6.00/32.1186
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 44
X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com
X-Trace: sv3-lmE7dtY9ABHL6aZXe5uNXlWHwd2omKT5Z0n95vY6zukRqyVOA5mH73lkB/KNLSRtL5penHjfNNMnIKQ!mDLvxgQx3FffvZtrf+JvwtOb1baAhaW3up7E/mdf6rOt0prRYdwCW+tMe0XaOmVwkhw2afKq3A==
X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com
X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly
X-Postfilter: 1.3.40
X-Original-Bytes: 2866
 by: Gerry - Tue, 21 Sep 2021 03:43 UTC

On Mon, 20 Sep 2021 19:36:46 +0100, Richard Smith <null@void.com>
wrote:

>Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> writes:
>
>> On 9/19/2021 1:20 PM, Richard Smith wrote:
>>> Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> writes:
>>>
>>>> On 9/17/2021 7:12 PM, Richard Smith wrote:
>>>>>> ... I'm just happy if I can see visible fusion in both toes.
>>>>>
>>>>> ...
>>>>> working with steel.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> No. I mean my aluminum welds look like crap.
>>>
>>> Ahhh - OK... I tend to be a bit of an optimist.
>>>
>>> That should not be the case.
>>> Could you manage an photos?
>>>
>>> My impression is the welds go in just right, but that that "good
>>> envelope" is very narrow. That the "easy" is a bit illusory...
>>>
>>
>>
>> LOL. Yep. Forever the optimist. I've actually found I get my best
>> aluminum welds by doing some research on feed. Making some practice
>> cold runs on coupons, then hot runs. Then adjusting and more practice
>> hot runs. Then cold runs on the part and finally welding my parts. I
>> actually weld so infrequently that muscle memory is totally forgotten
>> by the next time I need to weld a part.
>>
>> Given that one of my wishful plans is to make a couple aluminum boats
>> I guess I am an optimist too.
>>
>> Now I just need a 24 foot (~7-8 meter) sheet metal brake. LOL.
>
>LOL. Thumbs-up
What about thinking along the line of the people who instal continuous
eaves troughs? A coil of flat stock feeding through rollers to produce
the required profile.

Re: Al-GMAW summary is correct?

<ly8rzqsazs.fsf@richards-air-2.home>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=5132&group=rec.crafts.metalworking#5132

 copy link   Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!aioe.org!SitsikrlICv/kJ0vivirqg.user.46.165.242.91.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: nul...@void.com (Richard Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: Al-GMAW summary is correct?
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 07:23:19 +0100
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID: <ly8rzqsazs.fsf@richards-air-2.home>
References: <lymtoeqm3s.fsf@void.com> <shtjsf$kue$1@gioia.aioe.org> <lyilz0ajul.fsf@void.com> <shvt8u$1sfr$1@gioia.aioe.org> <lyzgsc53ou.fsf@richards-air-2.home> <si2mar$o02$1@gioia.aioe.org> <lyzgsahbsn.fsf@void.com> <si7pmr$1dbl$1@gioia.aioe.org> <lytuigs4fw.fsf@richards-air-2.home> <siaj01$1tp5$1@gioia.aioe.org> <ly4kafnlfl.fsf@richards-air-2.home> <mtkikg95csh9i0ousovd87ci57g9k13l9q@4ax.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Injection-Info: gioia.aioe.org; logging-data="32113"; posting-host="SitsikrlICv/kJ0vivirqg.user.gioia.aioe.org"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@aioe.org";
User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.1 (darwin)
Cancel-Lock: sha1:1ryT+a/TANwngpPi2r+sWlA9U3Q=
X-Notice: Filtered by postfilter v. 0.9.2
 by: Richard Smith - Tue, 21 Sep 2021 06:23 UTC

Gerry <geraldrmiller@yahoo.ca> writes:

> On Mon, 20 Sep 2021 19:36:46 +0100, Richard Smith <null@void.com>
> wrote:
>
>>Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> writes:
>>
>>> On 9/19/2021 1:20 PM, Richard Smith wrote:
>>>> Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> On 9/17/2021 7:12 PM, Richard Smith wrote:
>>>>>>> ... I'm just happy if I can see visible fusion in both toes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ...
>>>>>> working with steel.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> No. I mean my aluminum welds look like crap.
>>>>
>>>> Ahhh - OK... I tend to be a bit of an optimist.
>>>>
>>>> That should not be the case.
>>>> Could you manage an photos?
>>>>
>>>> My impression is the welds go in just right, but that that "good
>>>> envelope" is very narrow. That the "easy" is a bit illusory...
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> LOL. Yep. Forever the optimist. I've actually found I get my best
>>> aluminum welds by doing some research on feed. Making some practice
>>> cold runs on coupons, then hot runs. Then adjusting and more practice
>>> hot runs. Then cold runs on the part and finally welding my parts. I
>>> actually weld so infrequently that muscle memory is totally forgotten
>>> by the next time I need to weld a part.
>>>
>>> Given that one of my wishful plans is to make a couple aluminum boats
>>> I guess I am an optimist too.
>>>
>>> Now I just need a 24 foot (~7-8 meter) sheet metal brake. LOL.
>>
>>LOL. Thumbs-up
> What about thinking along the line of the people who instal continuous
> eaves troughs? A coil of flat stock feeding through rollers to produce
> the required profile.

It looks like they extrude ships by the metre and stick on a bluntly
pointy bit at the front and a chuggy bit with the bridge at the back -
but to make a small boat?

I've worked on boats, but never seen how you'd form-up an aluminium
boat. Any good links anyone can offer?

Re: Al-GMAW summary is correct?

<sid74n$1g3e$1@gioia.aioe.org>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=5133&group=rec.crafts.metalworking#5133

 copy link   Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!aioe.org!8O4CTVvGI43OLyHlA+QjDA.user.46.165.242.75.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: non...@none.com99 (Bob La Londe)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: Al-GMAW summary is correct?
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 11:09:26 -0700
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID: <sid74n$1g3e$1@gioia.aioe.org>
References: <lymtoeqm3s.fsf@void.com> <shtjsf$kue$1@gioia.aioe.org>
<lyilz0ajul.fsf@void.com> <shvt8u$1sfr$1@gioia.aioe.org>
<lyzgsc53ou.fsf@richards-air-2.home> <si2mar$o02$1@gioia.aioe.org>
<lyzgsahbsn.fsf@void.com> <si7pmr$1dbl$1@gioia.aioe.org>
<lytuigs4fw.fsf@richards-air-2.home> <siaj01$1tp5$1@gioia.aioe.org>
<ly4kafnlfl.fsf@richards-air-2.home>
<mtkikg95csh9i0ousovd87ci57g9k13l9q@4ax.com>
<ly8rzqsazs.fsf@richards-air-2.home>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Injection-Info: gioia.aioe.org; logging-data="49262"; posting-host="8O4CTVvGI43OLyHlA+QjDA.user.gioia.aioe.org"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@aioe.org";
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/78.14.0
X-Antivirus: AVG (VPS 210921-8, 9/21/2021), Outbound message
X-Antivirus-Status: Clean
X-Notice: Filtered by postfilter v. 0.9.2
Content-Language: en-US
 by: Bob La Londe - Tue, 21 Sep 2021 18:09 UTC

On 9/20/2021 11:23 PM, Richard Smith wrote:
> Gerry <geraldrmiller@yahoo.ca> writes:
>
>> On Mon, 20 Sep 2021 19:36:46 +0100, Richard Smith <null@void.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> writes:
>>>
>>>> On 9/19/2021 1:20 PM, Richard Smith wrote:
>>>>> Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> writes:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 9/17/2021 7:12 PM, Richard Smith wrote:
>>>>>>>> ... I'm just happy if I can see visible fusion in both toes.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>> working with steel.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No. I mean my aluminum welds look like crap.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ahhh - OK... I tend to be a bit of an optimist.
>>>>>
>>>>> That should not be the case.
>>>>> Could you manage an photos?
>>>>>
>>>>> My impression is the welds go in just right, but that that "good
>>>>> envelope" is very narrow. That the "easy" is a bit illusory...
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> LOL. Yep. Forever the optimist. I've actually found I get my best
>>>> aluminum welds by doing some research on feed. Making some practice
>>>> cold runs on coupons, then hot runs. Then adjusting and more practice
>>>> hot runs. Then cold runs on the part and finally welding my parts. I
>>>> actually weld so infrequently that muscle memory is totally forgotten
>>>> by the next time I need to weld a part.
>>>>
>>>> Given that one of my wishful plans is to make a couple aluminum boats
>>>> I guess I am an optimist too.
>>>>
>>>> Now I just need a 24 foot (~7-8 meter) sheet metal brake. LOL.
>>>
>>> LOL. Thumbs-up
>> What about thinking along the line of the people who instal continuous
>> eaves troughs? A coil of flat stock feeding through rollers to produce
>> the required profile.
>
> It looks like they extrude ships by the metre and stick on a bluntly
> pointy bit at the front and a chuggy bit with the bridge at the back -
> but to make a small boat?
>
> I've worked on boats, but never seen how you'd form-up an aluminium
> boat. Any good links anyone can offer?

I would guess it would be manufacturer specific. Most I've noted are
welded at the chines and keel. In some cases like inexpensive flat
bottoms the stringers and hulls stiffeners appear to be rolled or
stamped in. I expect using a rolling operation like corrugated sheet
metal used in metal building construction. Most backyard builders
usually weld in stiffeners and stringers (or on the outside in some
cases). Some purpose extruded, and some shop made. Some just a generic
piece of aluminum angle. The actual curved shape of a hull is usually
formed by flexing a flat sheet to fit up to strength members or other
sheets. They often employ more geometric sections than you might see in
a laid or sprayed glass boat for practical reasons of fit.

Since 5052 seems to be the preferred hull material work hardening IS an
issue when doing more complex forming. If for instance you want to make
a tight radius relatively sharp angle brake you may need to stop half
way and anneal the material before finishing the bend. The answer is
often either to cut and weld or to create a larger radius on the bend.

I've done a little aluminum boat repair (90% of my aluminum welding) and
spent a bit of time researching methods and looking at other builders
methods. One boat made by Tracker Was "formed" out of aluminum with
such nice lines that at a glance it looked like a glass boat sprayed
into a mold. Then you look closer and see they did do more welding than
just to fit trim, stiffeners, and gunnels. The keel (relatively sharp
bend) is welded right down the length of the boat.

The comment about a 24 foot brake is more a joke than any real need. A
rolling press of some kind would do a far better job, but for one or two
boats would be far to time consuming and expensive to build or have
built. If I ever get to that point I'll probably use purpose extruded
stiffeners and some form of ring roller to form them into shapes where
needed. I've got a lathe. I can make my own rolling dies. In fact I
madified some for a buddy of mine for his cheap Harbor Freight Roller.

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

Re: Al-GMAW summary is correct?

<sidaf6$c74$1@dont-email.me>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=5134&group=rec.crafts.metalworking#5134

 copy link   Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: djb...@invalid.com (David Billington)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: Al-GMAW summary is correct?
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 20:06:13 +0100
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 101
Message-ID: <sidaf6$c74$1@dont-email.me>
References: <lymtoeqm3s.fsf@void.com> <shtjsf$kue$1@gioia.aioe.org>
<lyilz0ajul.fsf@void.com> <shvt8u$1sfr$1@gioia.aioe.org>
<lyzgsc53ou.fsf@richards-air-2.home> <si2mar$o02$1@gioia.aioe.org>
<lyzgsahbsn.fsf@void.com> <si7pmr$1dbl$1@gioia.aioe.org>
<lytuigs4fw.fsf@richards-air-2.home> <siaj01$1tp5$1@gioia.aioe.org>
<ly4kafnlfl.fsf@richards-air-2.home>
<mtkikg95csh9i0ousovd87ci57g9k13l9q@4ax.com>
<ly8rzqsazs.fsf@richards-air-2.home> <sid74n$1g3e$1@gioia.aioe.org>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 19:06:14 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: reader02.eternal-september.org; posting-host="bb7267b99845a7aa6b5cc9281719dc77";
logging-data="12516"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX18l1JsjhU1LopA+prSv1DJi96DXl7OL2vs="
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/68.10.0
Cancel-Lock: sha1:CJfSuNQ4840guq2OhiI6sBulvWM=
In-Reply-To: <sid74n$1g3e$1@gioia.aioe.org>
Content-Language: en-GB
 by: David Billington - Tue, 21 Sep 2021 19:06 UTC

On 21/09/2021 19:09, Bob La Londe wrote:
> On 9/20/2021 11:23 PM, Richard Smith wrote:
>> Gerry <geraldrmiller@yahoo.ca> writes:
>>
>>> On Mon, 20 Sep 2021 19:36:46 +0100, Richard Smith <null@void.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> On 9/19/2021 1:20 PM, Richard Smith wrote:
>>>>>> Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> writes:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 9/17/2021 7:12 PM, Richard Smith wrote:
>>>>>>>>> ...   I'm just happy if I can see visible fusion in both toes.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>> working with steel.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No.  I mean my aluminum welds look like crap.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ahhh - OK...  I tend to be a bit of an optimist.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That should not be the case.
>>>>>> Could you manage an photos?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My impression is the welds go in just right, but that that "good
>>>>>> envelope" is very narrow.  That the "easy" is a bit illusory...
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> LOL.  Yep.  Forever the optimist.  I've actually found I get my best
>>>>> aluminum welds by doing some research on feed.  Making some practice
>>>>> cold runs on coupons, then hot runs.  Then adjusting and more
>>>>> practice
>>>>> hot runs.  Then cold runs on the part and finally welding my
>>>>> parts.  I
>>>>> actually weld so infrequently that muscle memory is totally forgotten
>>>>> by the next time I need to weld a part.
>>>>>
>>>>> Given that one of my wishful plans is to make a couple aluminum boats
>>>>> I guess I am an optimist too.
>>>>>
>>>>> Now I just need a 24 foot (~7-8 meter) sheet metal brake. LOL.
>>>>
>>>> LOL.  Thumbs-up
>>> What about thinking along the line of the people who instal continuous
>>> eaves troughs? A coil of flat stock feeding through rollers to produce
>>> the required profile.
>>
>> It looks like they extrude ships by the metre and stick on a bluntly
>> pointy bit at the front and a chuggy bit with the bridge at the back -
>> but to make a small boat?
>>
>> I've worked on boats, but never seen how you'd form-up an aluminium
>> boat. Any good links anyone can offer?
>
>
> I would guess it would be manufacturer specific.  Most I've noted are
> welded at the chines and keel.  In some cases like inexpensive flat
> bottoms the stringers and hulls stiffeners appear to be rolled or
> stamped in.  I expect using a rolling operation like corrugated sheet
> metal used in metal building construction.  Most backyard builders
> usually weld in stiffeners and stringers (or on the outside in some
> cases).  Some purpose extruded, and some shop made.  Some just a
> generic piece of aluminum angle.  The actual curved shape of a hull is
> usually formed by flexing a flat sheet to fit up to strength members
> or other sheets.  They often employ more geometric sections than you
> might see in a laid or sprayed glass boat for practical reasons of fit.
>
> Since 5052 seems to be the preferred hull material work hardening IS
> an issue when doing more complex forming.  If for instance you want to
> make a tight radius relatively sharp angle brake you may need to stop
> half way and anneal the material before finishing the bend.  The
> answer is often either to cut and weld or to create a larger radius on
> the bend.
>
> I've done a little aluminum boat repair (90% of my aluminum welding)
> and spent a bit of time researching methods and looking at other
> builders methods.  One boat made by Tracker Was "formed" out of
> aluminum with such nice lines that at a glance it looked like a glass
> boat sprayed into a mold.  Then you look closer and see they did do
> more welding than just to fit trim, stiffeners, and gunnels.  The keel
> (relatively sharp bend) is welded right down the length of the boat.
>
> The comment about a 24 foot brake is more a joke than any real need. 
> A rolling press of some kind would do a far better job, but for one or
> two boats would be far to time consuming and expensive to build or
> have built.  If I ever get to that point I'll probably use purpose
> extruded stiffeners and some form of ring roller to form them into
> shapes where needed. I've got a lathe.  I can make my own rolling
> dies.  In fact I madified some for a buddy of mine for his cheap
> Harbor Freight Roller.
>
>
I once saw a small boat/dinghy that was made from corrugated steel sheet
rolled up at each end with wooden sides. The ribs ran along the length
of the boat. I thought it was a clever solution if you have access to
kit to roll corrugated sheet.

Re: Al-GMAW summary is correct?

<sifoqc$1uba$1@gioia.aioe.org>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=5137&group=rec.crafts.metalworking#5137

 copy link   Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!aioe.org!8O4CTVvGI43OLyHlA+QjDA.user.46.165.242.75.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: non...@none.com99 (Bob La Londe)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: Al-GMAW summary is correct?
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 10:23:23 -0700
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID: <sifoqc$1uba$1@gioia.aioe.org>
References: <lymtoeqm3s.fsf@void.com> <shtjsf$kue$1@gioia.aioe.org>
<lyilz0ajul.fsf@void.com> <shvt8u$1sfr$1@gioia.aioe.org>
<lyzgsc53ou.fsf@richards-air-2.home> <si2mar$o02$1@gioia.aioe.org>
<lyzgsahbsn.fsf@void.com> <si7pmr$1dbl$1@gioia.aioe.org>
<lytuigs4fw.fsf@richards-air-2.home> <siaj01$1tp5$1@gioia.aioe.org>
<ly4kafnlfl.fsf@richards-air-2.home>
<mtkikg95csh9i0ousovd87ci57g9k13l9q@4ax.com>
<ly8rzqsazs.fsf@richards-air-2.home> <sid74n$1g3e$1@gioia.aioe.org>
<sidaf6$c74$1@dont-email.me>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Info: gioia.aioe.org; logging-data="63850"; posting-host="8O4CTVvGI43OLyHlA+QjDA.user.gioia.aioe.org"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@aioe.org";
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/78.14.0
Content-Language: en-US
X-Notice: Filtered by postfilter v. 0.9.2
X-Antivirus-Status: Clean
X-Antivirus: AVG (VPS 210922-2, 9/22/2021), Outbound message
 by: Bob La Londe - Wed, 22 Sep 2021 17:23 UTC

On 9/21/2021 12:06 PM, David Billington wrote:
> On 21/09/2021 19:09, Bob La Londe wrote:
>> On 9/20/2021 11:23 PM, Richard Smith wrote:
>>> Gerry <geraldrmiller@yahoo.ca> writes:
>>>
>>>> On Mon, 20 Sep 2021 19:36:46 +0100, Richard Smith <null@void.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> writes:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 9/19/2021 1:20 PM, Richard Smith wrote:
>>>>>>> Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> writes:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 9/17/2021 7:12 PM, Richard Smith wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> ...   I'm just happy if I can see visible fusion in both toes.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>>> working with steel.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> No.  I mean my aluminum welds look like crap.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ahhh - OK...  I tend to be a bit of an optimist.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That should not be the case.
>>>>>>> Could you manage an photos?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My impression is the welds go in just right, but that that "good
>>>>>>> envelope" is very narrow.  That the "easy" is a bit illusory...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> LOL.  Yep.  Forever the optimist.  I've actually found I get my best
>>>>>> aluminum welds by doing some research on feed.  Making some practice
>>>>>> cold runs on coupons, then hot runs.  Then adjusting and more
>>>>>> practice
>>>>>> hot runs.  Then cold runs on the part and finally welding my
>>>>>> parts.  I
>>>>>> actually weld so infrequently that muscle memory is totally forgotten
>>>>>> by the next time I need to weld a part.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Given that one of my wishful plans is to make a couple aluminum boats
>>>>>> I guess I am an optimist too.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Now I just need a 24 foot (~7-8 meter) sheet metal brake. LOL.
>>>>>
>>>>> LOL.  Thumbs-up
>>>> What about thinking along the line of the people who instal continuous
>>>> eaves troughs? A coil of flat stock feeding through rollers to produce
>>>> the required profile.
>>>
>>> It looks like they extrude ships by the metre and stick on a bluntly
>>> pointy bit at the front and a chuggy bit with the bridge at the back -
>>> but to make a small boat?
>>>
>>> I've worked on boats, but never seen how you'd form-up an aluminium
>>> boat. Any good links anyone can offer?
>>
>>
>> I would guess it would be manufacturer specific.  Most I've noted are
>> welded at the chines and keel.  In some cases like inexpensive flat
>> bottoms the stringers and hulls stiffeners appear to be rolled or
>> stamped in.  I expect using a rolling operation like corrugated sheet
>> metal used in metal building construction.  Most backyard builders
>> usually weld in stiffeners and stringers (or on the outside in some
>> cases).  Some purpose extruded, and some shop made.  Some just a
>> generic piece of aluminum angle.  The actual curved shape of a hull is
>> usually formed by flexing a flat sheet to fit up to strength members
>> or other sheets.  They often employ more geometric sections than you
>> might see in a laid or sprayed glass boat for practical reasons of fit.
>>
>> Since 5052 seems to be the preferred hull material work hardening IS
>> an issue when doing more complex forming.  If for instance you want to
>> make a tight radius relatively sharp angle brake you may need to stop
>> half way and anneal the material before finishing the bend.  The
>> answer is often either to cut and weld or to create a larger radius on
>> the bend.
>>
>> I've done a little aluminum boat repair (90% of my aluminum welding)
>> and spent a bit of time researching methods and looking at other
>> builders methods.  One boat made by Tracker Was "formed" out of
>> aluminum with such nice lines that at a glance it looked like a glass
>> boat sprayed into a mold.  Then you look closer and see they did do
>> more welding than just to fit trim, stiffeners, and gunnels.  The keel
>> (relatively sharp bend) is welded right down the length of the boat.
>>
>> The comment about a 24 foot brake is more a joke than any real need. A
>> rolling press of some kind would do a far better job, but for one or
>> two boats would be far to time consuming and expensive to build or
>> have built.  If I ever get to that point I'll probably use purpose
>> extruded stiffeners and some form of ring roller to form them into
>> shapes where needed. I've got a lathe.  I can make my own rolling
>> dies.  In fact I madified some for a buddy of mine for his cheap
>> Harbor Freight Roller.
>>
>>
> I once saw a small boat/dinghy that was made from corrugated steel sheet
> rolled up at each end with wooden sides. The ribs ran along the length
> of the boat. I thought it was a clever solution if you have access to
> kit to roll corrugated sheet.
>

There are some pretty interesting "economy" poor man boat builds on
YouTube . From reshaped plastic barrels used as panels to boats that
seem no bigger than a surfboard screaming up channels with a modified
weed eater being used as a surface drive.

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

Re: Al-GMAW summary is correct?

<lyo88j20q5.fsf@void.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=5143&group=rec.crafts.metalworking#5143

 copy link   Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!aioe.org!NR6cVADC5laEpWBPEQa+hA.user.46.165.242.91.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: nul...@void.com (Richard Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: Al-GMAW summary is correct?
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 08:46:26 +0100
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID: <lyo88j20q5.fsf@void.com>
References: <lymtoeqm3s.fsf@void.com> <shtjsf$kue$1@gioia.aioe.org> <lyilz0ajul.fsf@void.com> <shvt8u$1sfr$1@gioia.aioe.org> <lyzgsc53ou.fsf@richards-air-2.home> <si2mar$o02$1@gioia.aioe.org> <lyzgsahbsn.fsf@void.com> <si7pmr$1dbl$1@gioia.aioe.org> <lytuigs4fw.fsf@richards-air-2.home> <siaj01$1tp5$1@gioia.aioe.org> <ly4kafnlfl.fsf@richards-air-2.home> <mtkikg95csh9i0ousovd87ci57g9k13l9q@4ax.com> <ly8rzqsazs.fsf@richards-air-2.home> <sid74n$1g3e$1@gioia.aioe.org> <sidaf6$c74$1@dont-email.me> <sifoqc$1uba$1@gioia.aioe.org>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Injection-Info: gioia.aioe.org; logging-data="64321"; posting-host="NR6cVADC5laEpWBPEQa+hA.user.gioia.aioe.org"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@aioe.org";
User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.1 (darwin)
X-Notice: Filtered by postfilter v. 0.9.2
Cancel-Lock: sha1:gvdbdLZssO/wqev1aohoJusygM8=
 by: Richard Smith - Thu, 23 Sep 2021 07:46 UTC

Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> writes:

>> ...
>
>
> There are some pretty interesting "economy" poor man boat builds on
> YouTube . From reshaped plastic barrels used as panels to boats that
> seem no bigger than a surfboard screaming up channels with a modified
> weed eater being used as a surface drive.

Not quite the same, but love the structured madness of the Thai
longtail boat racing.

Re: Al-GMAW summary is correct?

<sij30i$1mu9$1@gioia.aioe.org>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=5144&group=rec.crafts.metalworking#5144

 copy link   Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!aioe.org!8O4CTVvGI43OLyHlA+QjDA.user.46.165.242.75.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: non...@none.com99 (Bob La Londe)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: Al-GMAW summary is correct?
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 16:35:47 -0700
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID: <sij30i$1mu9$1@gioia.aioe.org>
References: <lymtoeqm3s.fsf@void.com> <shtjsf$kue$1@gioia.aioe.org>
<lyilz0ajul.fsf@void.com> <shvt8u$1sfr$1@gioia.aioe.org>
<lyzgsc53ou.fsf@richards-air-2.home> <si2mar$o02$1@gioia.aioe.org>
<lyzgsahbsn.fsf@void.com> <si7pmr$1dbl$1@gioia.aioe.org>
<lytuigs4fw.fsf@richards-air-2.home> <siaj01$1tp5$1@gioia.aioe.org>
<ly4kafnlfl.fsf@richards-air-2.home>
<mtkikg95csh9i0ousovd87ci57g9k13l9q@4ax.com>
<ly8rzqsazs.fsf@richards-air-2.home> <sid74n$1g3e$1@gioia.aioe.org>
<sidaf6$c74$1@dont-email.me> <sifoqc$1uba$1@gioia.aioe.org>
<lyo88j20q5.fsf@void.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Injection-Info: gioia.aioe.org; logging-data="56265"; posting-host="8O4CTVvGI43OLyHlA+QjDA.user.gioia.aioe.org"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@aioe.org";
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/78.14.0
X-Antivirus-Status: Clean
X-Notice: Filtered by postfilter v. 0.9.2
X-Antivirus: AVG (VPS 210923-4, 9/23/2021), Outbound message
Content-Language: en-US
 by: Bob La Londe - Thu, 23 Sep 2021 23:35 UTC

On 9/23/2021 12:46 AM, Richard Smith wrote:
> Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> writes:
>
>>> ...
>>
>>
>> There are some pretty interesting "economy" poor man boat builds on
>> YouTube . From reshaped plastic barrels used as panels to boats that
>> seem no bigger than a surfboard screaming up channels with a modified
>> weed eater being used as a surface drive.
>
> Not quite the same, but love the structured madness of the Thai
> longtail boat racing.
>

One of my buddies is a hard corps mud boat / surface drive guy. I'm
pretty familiar with his weed eaters. He runs a log tail on his little
boat and a short tail on his slightly larger little boat. I'm an
outboard or outboard-jet guy myself, but I've got one rig I've been
thinking about putting a Twister XL4 "short long tail" on with a souped
up Predator 670 for a power plant.

My dream shallow water boat is actually a bit bigger. Something with
low dead rise (just enough to shed air bubbles), pocket tunnel, and
extra rear flotation boxes setup to use the 250ProXS, I've got hanging
off a stand in the back shop. After I fit it with a jet pump from
Outboard Jet Co of course. It should jump sandbars just as easily as
the smaller boats, but if it does get hung up I will need some help
getting it off. LOL.

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

Re: Al-GMAW summary is correct?

<ly5yuqbbpn.fsf@void.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=5145&group=rec.crafts.metalworking#5145

 copy link   Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!aioe.org!NR6cVADC5laEpWBPEQa+hA.user.46.165.242.91.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: nul...@void.com (Richard Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: Al-GMAW summary is correct?
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2021 09:48:52 +0100
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID: <ly5yuqbbpn.fsf@void.com>
References: <lymtoeqm3s.fsf@void.com> <shtjsf$kue$1@gioia.aioe.org> <lyilz0ajul.fsf@void.com> <shvt8u$1sfr$1@gioia.aioe.org> <lyzgsc53ou.fsf@richards-air-2.home> <si2mar$o02$1@gioia.aioe.org> <lyzgsahbsn.fsf@void.com> <si7pmr$1dbl$1@gioia.aioe.org> <lytuigs4fw.fsf@richards-air-2.home> <siaj01$1tp5$1@gioia.aioe.org> <ly4kafnlfl.fsf@richards-air-2.home> <mtkikg95csh9i0ousovd87ci57g9k13l9q@4ax.com> <ly8rzqsazs.fsf@richards-air-2.home> <sid74n$1g3e$1@gioia.aioe.org> <sidaf6$c74$1@dont-email.me> <sifoqc$1uba$1@gioia.aioe.org> <lyo88j20q5.fsf@void.com> <sij30i$1mu9$1@gioia.aioe.org>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Injection-Info: gioia.aioe.org; logging-data="1281"; posting-host="NR6cVADC5laEpWBPEQa+hA.user.gioia.aioe.org"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@aioe.org";
User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.1 (darwin)
Cancel-Lock: sha1:p8lACrKGtojRbYJyadWj7DHONRA=
X-Notice: Filtered by postfilter v. 0.9.2
 by: Richard Smith - Fri, 24 Sep 2021 08:48 UTC

Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> writes:

> On 9/23/2021 12:46 AM, Richard Smith wrote:
>> Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> writes:
>>
>>>> ...
>>>
>>>
>>> There are some pretty interesting "economy" poor man boat builds on
>>> YouTube . From reshaped plastic barrels used as panels to boats that
>>> seem no bigger than a surfboard screaming up channels with a modified
>>> weed eater being used as a surface drive.
>>
>> Not quite the same, but love the structured madness of the Thai
>> longtail boat racing.
>>
>
> One of my buddies is a hard corps mud boat / surface drive guy. I'm
> pretty familiar with his weed eaters. He runs a log tail on his
> little boat and a short tail on his slightly larger little boat. I'm
> an outboard or outboard-jet guy myself, but I've got one rig I've been
> thinking about putting a Twister XL4 "short long tail" on with a
> souped up Predator 670 for a power plant.
>
> My dream shallow water boat is actually a bit bigger. Something with
> low dead rise (just enough to shed air bubbles), pocket tunnel, and
> extra rear flotation boxes setup to use the 250ProXS, I've got hanging
> off a stand in the back shop. After I fit it with a jet pump from
> Outboard Jet Co of course. It should jump sandbars just as easily as
> the smaller boats, but if it does get hung up I will need some help
> getting it off. LOL.

Wow!

OK - I do a bit of sailing in a small single-mast single-sail dinghy -
mainly on an estuary, but have gone out to sea.
We have enormous (?) tides of of up to 4m twice a day with currents,
variable winds, etc., so have to be careful and plan voyages.

Re: Al-GMAW summary is correct?

<sil0n6$mco$1@gioia.aioe.org>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=5146&group=rec.crafts.metalworking#5146

 copy link   Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!aioe.org!8O4CTVvGI43OLyHlA+QjDA.user.46.165.242.75.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: non...@none.com99 (Bob La Londe)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: Al-GMAW summary is correct?
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2021 10:08:52 -0700
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID: <sil0n6$mco$1@gioia.aioe.org>
References: <lymtoeqm3s.fsf@void.com> <shtjsf$kue$1@gioia.aioe.org>
<lyilz0ajul.fsf@void.com> <shvt8u$1sfr$1@gioia.aioe.org>
<lyzgsc53ou.fsf@richards-air-2.home> <si2mar$o02$1@gioia.aioe.org>
<lyzgsahbsn.fsf@void.com> <si7pmr$1dbl$1@gioia.aioe.org>
<lytuigs4fw.fsf@richards-air-2.home> <siaj01$1tp5$1@gioia.aioe.org>
<ly4kafnlfl.fsf@richards-air-2.home>
<mtkikg95csh9i0ousovd87ci57g9k13l9q@4ax.com>
<ly8rzqsazs.fsf@richards-air-2.home> <sid74n$1g3e$1@gioia.aioe.org>
<sidaf6$c74$1@dont-email.me> <sifoqc$1uba$1@gioia.aioe.org>
<lyo88j20q5.fsf@void.com> <sij30i$1mu9$1@gioia.aioe.org>
<ly5yuqbbpn.fsf@void.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Injection-Info: gioia.aioe.org; logging-data="22936"; posting-host="8O4CTVvGI43OLyHlA+QjDA.user.gioia.aioe.org"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@aioe.org";
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/78.14.0
X-Antivirus: AVG (VPS 210924-2, 9/24/2021), Outbound message
X-Notice: Filtered by postfilter v. 0.9.2
Content-Language: en-US
X-Antivirus-Status: Clean
 by: Bob La Londe - Fri, 24 Sep 2021 17:08 UTC

On 9/24/2021 1:48 AM, Richard Smith wrote:
> Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> writes:
>
>> On 9/23/2021 12:46 AM, Richard Smith wrote:
>>> Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> writes:
>>>
>>>>> ...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There are some pretty interesting "economy" poor man boat builds on
>>>> YouTube . From reshaped plastic barrels used as panels to boats that
>>>> seem no bigger than a surfboard screaming up channels with a modified
>>>> weed eater being used as a surface drive.
>>>
>>> Not quite the same, but love the structured madness of the Thai
>>> longtail boat racing.
>>>
>>
>> One of my buddies is a hard corps mud boat / surface drive guy. I'm
>> pretty familiar with his weed eaters. He runs a log tail on his
>> little boat and a short tail on his slightly larger little boat. I'm
>> an outboard or outboard-jet guy myself, but I've got one rig I've been
>> thinking about putting a Twister XL4 "short long tail" on with a
>> souped up Predator 670 for a power plant.
>>
>> My dream shallow water boat is actually a bit bigger. Something with
>> low dead rise (just enough to shed air bubbles), pocket tunnel, and
>> extra rear flotation boxes setup to use the 250ProXS, I've got hanging
>> off a stand in the back shop. After I fit it with a jet pump from
>> Outboard Jet Co of course. It should jump sandbars just as easily as
>> the smaller boats, but if it does get hung up I will need some help
>> getting it off. LOL.
>
> Wow!
>
> OK - I do a bit of sailing in a small single-mast single-sail dinghy -
> mainly on an estuary, but have gone out to sea.
> We have enormous (?) tides of of up to 4m twice a day with currents,
> variable winds, etc., so have to be careful and plan voyages.
>

I've never done any sailing. Well, I have been known to throw an
umbrella in the canoe.

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

Re: Al-GMAW summary is correct?

<silh0t$5uf$1@dont-email.me>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=5148&group=rec.crafts.metalworking#5148

 copy link   Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: muratla...@gmail.com (Jim Wilkins)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: Al-GMAW summary is correct?
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2021 17:46:49 -0400
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 1
Message-ID: <silh0t$5uf$1@dont-email.me>
References: <lymtoeqm3s.fsf@void.com> <shtjsf$kue$1@gioia.aioe.org> <lyilz0ajul.fsf@void.com> <shvt8u$1sfr$1@gioia.aioe.org> <lyzgsc53ou.fsf@richards-air-2.home> <si2mar$o02$1@gioia.aioe.org> <lyzgsahbsn.fsf@void.com> <si7pmr$1dbl$1@gioia.aioe.org> <lytuigs4fw.fsf@richards-air-2.home> <siaj01$1tp5$1@gioia.aioe.org> <ly4kafnlfl.fsf@richards-air-2.home> <mtkikg95csh9i0ousovd87ci57g9k13l9q@4ax.com> <ly8rzqsazs.fsf@richards-air-2.home> <sid74n$1g3e$1@gioia.aioe.org> <sidaf6$c74$1@dont-email.me> <sifoqc$1uba$1@gioia.aioe.org> <lyo88j20q5.fsf@void.com> <sij30i$1mu9$1@gioia.aioe.org> <ly5yuqbbpn.fsf@void.com> <sil0n6$mco$1@gioia.aioe.org>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
format=flowed;
charset="UTF-8";
reply-type=response
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Injection-Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2021 21:47:09 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: reader02.eternal-september.org; posting-host="06aed9d7e9f159ae3f37c5d430102758";
logging-data="6095"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX19hvK/XQAp2uc3V7+8ULyKOeILjKMBj6TE="
Cancel-Lock: sha1:yLgSgtiUk37BP5zDA4ySy/LrXa0=
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V16.4.3505.912
In-Reply-To: <sil0n6$mco$1@gioia.aioe.org>
X-Antivirus-Status: Clean
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 16.4.3505.912
Importance: Normal
X-Antivirus: AVG (VPS 210924-4, 9/24/2021), Outbound message
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
 by: Jim Wilkins - Fri, 24 Sep 2021 21:46 UTC

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:sil0n6$mco$1@gioia.aioe.org...

On 9/24/2021 1:48 AM, Richard Smith wrote:
>
> OK - I do a bit of sailing in a small single-mast single-sail dinghy -
> mainly on an estuary, but have gone out to sea.
> We have enormous (?) tides of of up to 4m twice a day with currents,
> variable winds, etc., so have to be careful and plan voyages.
>

I've never done any sailing. Well, I have been known to throw an
umbrella in the canoe.

------------------
I had the chance to sail a Maid of Kent. Three sails, the compass, chart and
rudder were more than I could manage all at once, as the crooked wake
revealed.
http://www.atkinboatplans.com/Sail/LittleMaidOfKent.html

As a kid I built working model sailboats. When set to sail at nearly a right
angle to the wind they would run back and forth along a nearly straight
line, occasionally turning in surface turbulence, and usually return to the
launch site. The trick was to trim a fairly small jib tighter than the main
so it balanced the side thrust on the main without seriously hindering
forward motion.

1
server_pubkey.txt

rocksolid light 0.9.7
clearnet tor