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tech / rec.crafts.metalworking / Electrical Gremlin - Actual Question

SubjectAuthor
* Electrical Gremlin - Actual QuestionBob La Londe
+* Re: Electrical Gremlin - Actual QuestionLeon Fisk
|`* Re: Electrical Gremlin - Actual QuestionABLE1
| `* Re: Electrical Gremlin - Actual QuestionBob La Londe
|  `* Re: Electrical Gremlin - Actual QuestionBob La Londe
|   `* Re: Electrical Gremlin - Actual QuestionABLE1
|    `* Re: Electrical Gremlin - Actual QuestionBob La Londe
|     `* Re: Electrical Gremlin - Actual QuestionBob La Londe
|      +* Re: Electrical Gremlin - Actual QuestionLeon Fisk
|      |`- Re: Electrical Gremlin - Actual QuestionBob La Londe
|      `- Re: Electrical Gremlin - Actual QuestionJim Wilkins
`- Re: Electrical Gremlin - Actual QuestionJim Wilkins

1
Electrical Gremlin - Actual Question

<si7s4j$jg5$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: non...@none.com99 (Bob La Londe)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Electrical Gremlin - Actual Question
Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2021 10:31:00 -0700
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 by: Bob La Londe - Sun, 19 Sep 2021 17:31 UTC

On the smallest mill I use regularly It has developed the habit of going
into E-Stop when the coolant pump starts and stops. Its controlled by
an HH52P 24VDC coil relay. The same model relay is used to control the
spindle on-off signal to the VFD.

All I use this machine for is engraving, but its still annoying. I have
a simple work around. Start the coolant pump manually (on screen
button), and if it trips the e-stop reset and start it again. Then
begin code execution. To be honest its not that big of a deal. The
shop is busy and I mostly just want to get parts out the door. Still I
think it has to be a simple noise problem of some kind. Maybe an
especially noisy arc when the relay actuates.

I'm going to try a new relay. These are probably the cheapest Chinese
relays available. (I did have to replace the spindle start relay a
couple years ago).

What do you think is most likely? Do you think there is a way to
mitigate it? Maybe with a choke? Possibly a diode on the coil trigger
input?

I think if it is the relay itself its most likely the primary contacts
because it happens sometimes on both pump start and pump stop. Neither
affects the machine position since both happen when the machine is
momentarily stationary. Its just annoying.

It did not happen at all for the first several years I owned it, and it
is the oldest CNC machine I use regularly. (almost everyday)

It is a Mach3 controlled machine using a Smoothstepper for the motion
interface between the PC and the BOB. The wiring is pretty clean and
orderly and I have checked every connection on the machine.

Other than being a cheap (relatively) Chinese cast iron dovetail mill,
that like many I had to fix before it was passable to use, It really
doesn't have any other problems. Before getting other newer machines I
made a lot of molds with this little machine.

Well, now to order some more relays.

--
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Re: Electrical Gremlin - Actual Question

<si7v2g$o7p$1@dont-email.me>

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From: lfis...@gmail.invalid (Leon Fisk)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: Electrical Gremlin - Actual Question
Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2021 14:21:04 -0400
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 by: Leon Fisk - Sun, 19 Sep 2021 18:21 UTC

On Sun, 19 Sep 2021 10:31:00 -0700
Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> wrote:

>On the smallest mill I use regularly It has developed the habit of going
>into E-Stop when the coolant pump starts and stops. Its controlled by
>an HH52P 24VDC coil relay. The same model relay is used to control the
>spindle on-off signal to the VFD.
>
>All I use this machine for is engraving, but its still annoying. I have
>a simple work around. Start the coolant pump manually (on screen
>button), and if it trips the e-stop reset and start it again. Then
>begin code execution. To be honest its not that big of a deal. The
>shop is busy and I mostly just want to get parts out the door. Still I
>think it has to be a simple noise problem of some kind. Maybe an
>especially noisy arc when the relay actuates.
>
>I'm going to try a new relay. These are probably the cheapest Chinese
>relays available. (I did have to replace the spindle start relay a
>couple years ago).
>
>What do you think is most likely? Do you think there is a way to
>mitigate it? Maybe with a choke? Possibly a diode on the coil trigger
>input?
>
>I think if it is the relay itself its most likely the primary contacts
>because it happens sometimes on both pump start and pump stop. Neither
>affects the machine position since both happen when the machine is
>momentarily stationary. Its just annoying.
>
>It did not happen at all for the first several years I owned it, and it
>is the oldest CNC machine I use regularly. (almost everyday)
>
>It is a Mach3 controlled machine using a Smoothstepper for the motion
>interface between the PC and the BOB. The wiring is pretty clean and
>orderly and I have checked every connection on the machine.
>
>Other than being a cheap (relatively) Chinese cast iron dovetail mill,
>that like many I had to fix before it was passable to use, It really
>doesn't have any other problems. Before getting other newer machines I
>made a lot of molds with this little machine.
>
>Well, now to order some more relays.

Do you have a flyback diode paralleling the relay coil? This explains
it better than I can:

https://resources.altium.com/p/using-flyback-diodes-relays-prevents-electrical-noise-your-circuits

Also might want to search out snubber diode...

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI

Re: Electrical Gremlin - Actual Question

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Subject: Re: Electrical Gremlin - Actual Question
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 by: ABLE1 - Sun, 19 Sep 2021 20:20 UTC

On 9/19/2021 2:21 PM, Leon Fisk wrote:
> On Sun, 19 Sep 2021 10:31:00 -0700
> Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> wrote:
>
>> On the smallest mill I use regularly It has developed the habit of going
>> into E-Stop when the coolant pump starts and stops. Its controlled by
>> an HH52P 24VDC coil relay. The same model relay is used to control the
>> spindle on-off signal to the VFD.
>>
>> All I use this machine for is engraving, but its still annoying. I have
>> a simple work around. Start the coolant pump manually (on screen
>> button), and if it trips the e-stop reset and start it again. Then
>> begin code execution. To be honest its not that big of a deal. The
>> shop is busy and I mostly just want to get parts out the door. Still I
>> think it has to be a simple noise problem of some kind. Maybe an
>> especially noisy arc when the relay actuates.
>>
>> I'm going to try a new relay. These are probably the cheapest Chinese
>> relays available. (I did have to replace the spindle start relay a
>> couple years ago).
>>
>> What do you think is most likely? Do you think there is a way to
>> mitigate it? Maybe with a choke? Possibly a diode on the coil trigger
>> input?
>>
>> I think if it is the relay itself its most likely the primary contacts
>> because it happens sometimes on both pump start and pump stop. Neither
>> affects the machine position since both happen when the machine is
>> momentarily stationary. Its just annoying.
>>
>> It did not happen at all for the first several years I owned it, and it
>> is the oldest CNC machine I use regularly. (almost everyday)
>>
>> It is a Mach3 controlled machine using a Smoothstepper for the motion
>> interface between the PC and the BOB. The wiring is pretty clean and
>> orderly and I have checked every connection on the machine.
>>
>> Other than being a cheap (relatively) Chinese cast iron dovetail mill,
>> that like many I had to fix before it was passable to use, It really
>> doesn't have any other problems. Before getting other newer machines I
>> made a lot of molds with this little machine.
>>
>> Well, now to order some more relays.
>

Bob,
Just for some giggles!! Can you get access to the actual contacts.
If Yes, the try a simple piece of folded sandpaper or abrasive strip.
The attempt would be to just clean the contacts of some carbon.

If the relay is enclosed in a plastic cover maybe the cover can be
popped off and the do the same as above.

I just had an intermittent issue with a door open relay. After
replacing the relay and all worked as it should I took the cover off
the relay and inspected the contacts with a microscope. To the naked
eye there was no issue visable, however with the microscope I could
see some etching of the contact surface. At that point it was not
worth my time to clean it up and take it back to try to see if the
customer gets re-irritated. :-)

Anyhow, for what you are doing it might be a quick fix and maybe a way
to get convinced it really is the relay that is irritating you!!! :-)

Later,

Les

Re: Electrical Gremlin - Actual Question

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From: muratla...@gmail.com (Jim Wilkins)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: Electrical Gremlin - Actual Question
Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2021 17:32:56 -0400
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 by: Jim Wilkins - Sun, 19 Sep 2021 21:32 UTC

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:si7s4j$jg5$1@gioia.aioe.org...

On the smallest mill I use regularly It has developed the habit of going
into E-Stop when the coolant pump starts and stops. Its controlled by
an HH52P 24VDC coil relay. The same model relay is used to control the
spindle on-off signal to the VFD.

-----------------------

That relay is rated to switch only 5A. What is the pump motor starting
surge?

Re: Electrical Gremlin - Actual Question

<sigbcn$9jb$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: non...@none.com99 (Bob La Londe)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: Electrical Gremlin - Actual Question
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 15:40:24 -0700
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 by: Bob La Londe - Wed, 22 Sep 2021 22:40 UTC

On 9/19/2021 1:20 PM, ABLE1 wrote:
> On 9/19/2021 2:21 PM, Leon Fisk wrote:
>> On Sun, 19 Sep 2021 10:31:00 -0700
>> Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> wrote:
>>
>>> On the smallest mill I use regularly It has developed the habit of going
>>> into E-Stop when the coolant pump starts and stops.  Its controlled by
>>> an HH52P 24VDC coil relay.  The same model relay is used to control the
>>> spindle on-off signal to the VFD.
>>>
>>> All I use this machine for is engraving, but its still annoying.  I have
>>> a simple work around.  Start the coolant pump manually (on screen
>>> button), and if it trips the e-stop reset and start it again.  Then
>>> begin code execution.  To be honest its not that big of a deal.  The
>>> shop is busy and I mostly just want to get parts out the door.  Still I
>>> think it has to be a simple noise problem of some kind.  Maybe an
>>> especially noisy arc when the relay actuates.
>>>
>>> I'm going to try a new relay.  These are probably the cheapest Chinese
>>> relays available.  (I did have to replace the spindle start relay a
>>> couple years ago).
>>>
>>> What do you think is most likely?  Do you think there is a way to
>>> mitigate it?  Maybe with a choke?  Possibly a diode on the coil trigger
>>> input?
>>>
>>> I think if it is the relay itself its most likely the primary contacts
>>> because it happens sometimes on both pump start and pump stop.  Neither
>>> affects the machine position since both happen when the machine is
>>> momentarily stationary.  Its just annoying.
>>>
>>> It did not happen at all for the first several years I owned it, and it
>>> is the oldest CNC machine I use regularly.  (almost everyday)
>>>
>>> It is a Mach3 controlled machine using a Smoothstepper for the motion
>>> interface between the PC and the BOB.  The wiring is pretty clean and
>>> orderly and I have checked every connection on the machine.
>>>
>>> Other than being a cheap (relatively) Chinese cast iron dovetail mill,
>>> that like many I had to fix before it was passable to use, It really
>>> doesn't have any other problems.   Before getting other newer machines I
>>> made a lot of molds with this little machine.
>>>
>>> Well, now to order some more relays.
>>
>
> Bob,
> Just for some giggles!!  Can you get access to the actual contacts.
> If Yes, the try a simple piece of folded sandpaper or abrasive strip.
> The attempt would be to just clean the contacts of some carbon.
>
> If the relay is enclosed in a plastic cover maybe the cover can be
> popped off and the do the same as above.
>
> I just had an intermittent issue with a door open relay.  After
> replacing the relay and all worked as it should I took the cover off
> the relay and inspected the contacts with a microscope.  To the naked
> eye there was no issue visable, however with the microscope I could
> see some etching of the contact surface.  At that point it was not
> worth my time to clean it up and take it back to try to see if the
> customer gets re-irritated.  :-)
>
> Anyhow, for what you are doing it might be a quick fix and maybe a way
> to get convinced it really is the relay that is irritating you!!! :-)
>
> Later,
>
> Les

I've got a half dozen relays in the mail. I have three machines that
use these same relays (different names and mfgs but the same basic
relay) for a variety of switching and control. I figure it can't hurt
to have some new in package on the shelf. If a new relay fixes the
problem I probably won't worry about any further. This one worked great
for several years. I may throw some noise cancelling component on the
switched side if I remember. Its not like I don't have diodes and caps
laying around... heck I though I had spares of this relay, but I must
have used my last one on something. I do have an unused base. LOL.

I guess I could have swapped the spindle relay to test, but I'm just to
darned busy these days.

--
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Re: Electrical Gremlin - Actual Question

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From: non...@none.com99 (Bob La Londe)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: Electrical Gremlin - Actual Question
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 17:08:02 -0700
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
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 by: Bob La Londe - Thu, 23 Sep 2021 00:08 UTC

On 9/22/2021 3:40 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
> On 9/19/2021 1:20 PM, ABLE1 wrote:
>> On 9/19/2021 2:21 PM, Leon Fisk wrote:
>>> On Sun, 19 Sep 2021 10:31:00 -0700
>>> Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On the smallest mill I use regularly It has developed the habit of
>>>> going
>>>> into E-Stop when the coolant pump starts and stops.  Its controlled by
>>>> an HH52P 24VDC coil relay.  The same model relay is used to control the
>>>> spindle on-off signal to the VFD.
>>>>
>>>> All I use this machine for is engraving, but its still annoying.  I
>>>> have
>>>> a simple work around.  Start the coolant pump manually (on screen
>>>> button), and if it trips the e-stop reset and start it again.  Then
>>>> begin code execution.  To be honest its not that big of a deal.  The
>>>> shop is busy and I mostly just want to get parts out the door.  Still I
>>>> think it has to be a simple noise problem of some kind.  Maybe an
>>>> especially noisy arc when the relay actuates.
>>>>
>>>> I'm going to try a new relay.  These are probably the cheapest Chinese
>>>> relays available.  (I did have to replace the spindle start relay a
>>>> couple years ago).
>>>>
>>>> What do you think is most likely?  Do you think there is a way to
>>>> mitigate it?  Maybe with a choke?  Possibly a diode on the coil trigger
>>>> input?
>>>>
>>>> I think if it is the relay itself its most likely the primary contacts
>>>> because it happens sometimes on both pump start and pump stop.  Neither
>>>> affects the machine position since both happen when the machine is
>>>> momentarily stationary.  Its just annoying.
>>>>
>>>> It did not happen at all for the first several years I owned it, and it
>>>> is the oldest CNC machine I use regularly.  (almost everyday)
>>>>
>>>> It is a Mach3 controlled machine using a Smoothstepper for the motion
>>>> interface between the PC and the BOB.  The wiring is pretty clean and
>>>> orderly and I have checked every connection on the machine.
>>>>
>>>> Other than being a cheap (relatively) Chinese cast iron dovetail mill,
>>>> that like many I had to fix before it was passable to use, It really
>>>> doesn't have any other problems.   Before getting other newer
>>>> machines I
>>>> made a lot of molds with this little machine.
>>>>
>>>> Well, now to order some more relays.
>>>
>>
>> Bob,
>> Just for some giggles!!  Can you get access to the actual contacts.
>> If Yes, the try a simple piece of folded sandpaper or abrasive strip.
>> The attempt would be to just clean the contacts of some carbon.
>>
>> If the relay is enclosed in a plastic cover maybe the cover can be
>> popped off and the do the same as above.
>>
>> I just had an intermittent issue with a door open relay.  After
>> replacing the relay and all worked as it should I took the cover off
>> the relay and inspected the contacts with a microscope.  To the naked
>> eye there was no issue visable, however with the microscope I could
>> see some etching of the contact surface.  At that point it was not
>> worth my time to clean it up and take it back to try to see if the
>> customer gets re-irritated.  :-)
>>
>> Anyhow, for what you are doing it might be a quick fix and maybe a way
>> to get convinced it really is the relay that is irritating you!!! :-)
>>
>> Later,
>>
>> Les
>
> I've got a half dozen relays in the mail.  I have three machines that
> use these same relays (different names and mfgs but the same basic
> relay) for a variety of switching and control.  I figure it can't hurt
> to have some new in package on the shelf.  If a new relay fixes the
> problem I probably won't worry about any further.  This one worked great
> for several years.  I may throw some noise cancelling component on the
> switched side if I remember.  Its not like I don't have diodes and caps
> laying around... heck I though I had spares of this relay, but I must
> have used my last one on something.  I do have an unused base.  LOL.
>
> I guess I could have swapped the spindle relay to test, but I'm just to
> darned busy these days.
>

Preliminary testings shows a new sub $5 relay did the trick. Ordered on
Ebay shipped from Amazon. Maybe it was a sub $3 relay. LOL.

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Re: Electrical Gremlin - Actual Question

<PPQ2J.44647$3p3.43784@fx16.iad>

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Subject: Re: Electrical Gremlin - Actual Question
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From: somewh...@nowhere.net (ABLE1)
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 by: ABLE1 - Thu, 23 Sep 2021 01:33 UTC

On 9/22/2021 8:08 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
> On 9/22/2021 3:40 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
>> On 9/19/2021 1:20 PM, ABLE1 wrote:
>>> On 9/19/2021 2:21 PM, Leon Fisk wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 19 Sep 2021 10:31:00 -0700
>>>> Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On the smallest mill I use regularly It has developed the habit of
>>>>> going
>>>>> into E-Stop when the coolant pump starts and stops.  Its controlled by
>>>>> an HH52P 24VDC coil relay.  The same model relay is used to control
>>>>> the
>>>>> spindle on-off signal to the VFD.
>>>>>
>>>>> All I use this machine for is engraving, but its still annoying.  I
>>>>> have
>>>>> a simple work around.  Start the coolant pump manually (on screen
>>>>> button), and if it trips the e-stop reset and start it again.  Then
>>>>> begin code execution.  To be honest its not that big of a deal.  The
>>>>> shop is busy and I mostly just want to get parts out the door.
>>>>> Still I
>>>>> think it has to be a simple noise problem of some kind.  Maybe an
>>>>> especially noisy arc when the relay actuates.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm going to try a new relay.  These are probably the cheapest Chinese
>>>>> relays available.  (I did have to replace the spindle start relay a
>>>>> couple years ago).
>>>>>
>>>>> What do you think is most likely?  Do you think there is a way to
>>>>> mitigate it?  Maybe with a choke?  Possibly a diode on the coil
>>>>> trigger
>>>>> input?
>>>>>
>>>>> I think if it is the relay itself its most likely the primary contacts
>>>>> because it happens sometimes on both pump start and pump stop.
>>>>> Neither
>>>>> affects the machine position since both happen when the machine is
>>>>> momentarily stationary.  Its just annoying.
>>>>>
>>>>> It did not happen at all for the first several years I owned it,
>>>>> and it
>>>>> is the oldest CNC machine I use regularly.  (almost everyday)
>>>>>
>>>>> It is a Mach3 controlled machine using a Smoothstepper for the motion
>>>>> interface between the PC and the BOB.  The wiring is pretty clean and
>>>>> orderly and I have checked every connection on the machine.
>>>>>
>>>>> Other than being a cheap (relatively) Chinese cast iron dovetail mill,
>>>>> that like many I had to fix before it was passable to use, It really
>>>>> doesn't have any other problems.   Before getting other newer
>>>>> machines I
>>>>> made a lot of molds with this little machine.
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, now to order some more relays.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Bob,
>>> Just for some giggles!!  Can you get access to the actual contacts.
>>> If Yes, the try a simple piece of folded sandpaper or abrasive strip.
>>> The attempt would be to just clean the contacts of some carbon.
>>>
>>> If the relay is enclosed in a plastic cover maybe the cover can be
>>> popped off and the do the same as above.
>>>
>>> I just had an intermittent issue with a door open relay.  After
>>> replacing the relay and all worked as it should I took the cover off
>>> the relay and inspected the contacts with a microscope.  To the naked
>>> eye there was no issue visable, however with the microscope I could
>>> see some etching of the contact surface.  At that point it was not
>>> worth my time to clean it up and take it back to try to see if the
>>> customer gets re-irritated.  :-)
>>>
>>> Anyhow, for what you are doing it might be a quick fix and maybe a way
>>> to get convinced it really is the relay that is irritating you!!! :-)
>>>
>>> Later,
>>>
>>> Les
>>
>> I've got a half dozen relays in the mail.  I have three machines that
>> use these same relays (different names and mfgs but the same basic
>> relay) for a variety of switching and control.  I figure it can't hurt
>> to have some new in package on the shelf.  If a new relay fixes the
>> problem I probably won't worry about any further.  This one worked
>> great for several years.  I may throw some noise cancelling component
>> on the switched side if I remember.  Its not like I don't have diodes
>> and caps laying around... heck I though I had spares of this relay,
>> but I must have used my last one on something.  I do have an unused
>> base.  LOL.
>>
>> I guess I could have swapped the spindle relay to test, but I'm just
>> to darned busy these days.
>>
>
>
>
> Preliminary testings shows a new sub $5 relay did the trick.  Ordered on
> Ebay shipped from Amazon.  Maybe it was a sub $3 relay.  LOL.
>

Congrats Bob!!

You know that given the same daily workload feels like a lot more as you
age?? ;-) Or something like that!! LOL

Les

Re: Electrical Gremlin - Actual Question

<sil4bm$ar3$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: non...@none.com99 (Bob La Londe)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: Electrical Gremlin - Actual Question
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2021 11:11:01 -0700
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID: <sil4bm$ar3$1@gioia.aioe.org>
References: <si7s4j$jg5$1@gioia.aioe.org> <si7v2g$o7p$1@dont-email.me>
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 by: Bob La Londe - Fri, 24 Sep 2021 18:11 UTC

On 9/22/2021 6:33 PM, ABLE1 wrote:
> On 9/22/2021 8:08 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
>> On 9/22/2021 3:40 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
>>> On 9/19/2021 1:20 PM, ABLE1 wrote:
>>>> On 9/19/2021 2:21 PM, Leon Fisk wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 19 Sep 2021 10:31:00 -0700
>>>>> Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On the smallest mill I use regularly It has developed the habit of
>>>>>> going
>>>>>> into E-Stop when the coolant pump starts and stops.  Its
>>>>>> controlled by
>>>>>> an HH52P 24VDC coil relay.  The same model relay is used to
>>>>>> control the
>>>>>> spindle on-off signal to the VFD.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> All I use this machine for is engraving, but its still annoying.
>>>>>> I have
>>>>>> a simple work around.  Start the coolant pump manually (on screen
>>>>>> button), and if it trips the e-stop reset and start it again.  Then
>>>>>> begin code execution.  To be honest its not that big of a deal.  The
>>>>>> shop is busy and I mostly just want to get parts out the door.
>>>>>> Still I
>>>>>> think it has to be a simple noise problem of some kind.  Maybe an
>>>>>> especially noisy arc when the relay actuates.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm going to try a new relay.  These are probably the cheapest
>>>>>> Chinese
>>>>>> relays available.  (I did have to replace the spindle start relay a
>>>>>> couple years ago).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What do you think is most likely?  Do you think there is a way to
>>>>>> mitigate it?  Maybe with a choke?  Possibly a diode on the coil
>>>>>> trigger
>>>>>> input?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think if it is the relay itself its most likely the primary
>>>>>> contacts
>>>>>> because it happens sometimes on both pump start and pump stop.
>>>>>> Neither
>>>>>> affects the machine position since both happen when the machine is
>>>>>> momentarily stationary.  Its just annoying.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It did not happen at all for the first several years I owned it,
>>>>>> and it
>>>>>> is the oldest CNC machine I use regularly.  (almost everyday)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It is a Mach3 controlled machine using a Smoothstepper for the motion
>>>>>> interface between the PC and the BOB.  The wiring is pretty clean and
>>>>>> orderly and I have checked every connection on the machine.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Other than being a cheap (relatively) Chinese cast iron dovetail
>>>>>> mill,
>>>>>> that like many I had to fix before it was passable to use, It really
>>>>>> doesn't have any other problems.   Before getting other newer
>>>>>> machines I
>>>>>> made a lot of molds with this little machine.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well, now to order some more relays.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Bob,
>>>> Just for some giggles!!  Can you get access to the actual contacts.
>>>> If Yes, the try a simple piece of folded sandpaper or abrasive strip.
>>>> The attempt would be to just clean the contacts of some carbon.
>>>>
>>>> If the relay is enclosed in a plastic cover maybe the cover can be
>>>> popped off and the do the same as above.
>>>>
>>>> I just had an intermittent issue with a door open relay.  After
>>>> replacing the relay and all worked as it should I took the cover off
>>>> the relay and inspected the contacts with a microscope.  To the naked
>>>> eye there was no issue visable, however with the microscope I could
>>>> see some etching of the contact surface.  At that point it was not
>>>> worth my time to clean it up and take it back to try to see if the
>>>> customer gets re-irritated.  :-)
>>>>
>>>> Anyhow, for what you are doing it might be a quick fix and maybe a way
>>>> to get convinced it really is the relay that is irritating you!!! :-)
>>>>
>>>> Later,
>>>>
>>>> Les
>>>
>>> I've got a half dozen relays in the mail.  I have three machines that
>>> use these same relays (different names and mfgs but the same basic
>>> relay) for a variety of switching and control.  I figure it can't
>>> hurt to have some new in package on the shelf.  If a new relay fixes
>>> the problem I probably won't worry about any further.  This one
>>> worked great for several years.  I may throw some noise cancelling
>>> component on the switched side if I remember.  Its not like I don't
>>> have diodes and caps laying around... heck I though I had spares of
>>> this relay, but I must have used my last one on something.  I do have
>>> an unused base.  LOL.
>>>
>>> I guess I could have swapped the spindle relay to test, but I'm just
>>> to darned busy these days.
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Preliminary testings shows a new sub $5 relay did the trick.  Ordered
>> on Ebay shipped from Amazon.  Maybe it was a sub $3 relay.  LOL.
>>
>
> Congrats Bob!!
>
> You know that given the same daily workload feels like a lot more as you
> age??  ;-)  Or something like that!!  LOL
>
> Les
>

Less feels like more.

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Re: Electrical Gremlin - Actual Question

<sjff0r$kho$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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Path: rocksolid2!i2pn.org!aioe.org!8O4CTVvGI43OLyHlA+QjDA.user.46.165.242.75.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: non...@none.com99 (Bob La Londe)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: Electrical Gremlin - Actual Question
Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2021 10:52:25 -0700
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID: <sjff0r$kho$1@gioia.aioe.org>
References: <si7s4j$jg5$1@gioia.aioe.org> <si7v2g$o7p$1@dont-email.me>
<tYM1J.80633$g81.3489@fx33.iad> <sigbcn$9jb$1@gioia.aioe.org>
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 by: Bob La Londe - Mon, 4 Oct 2021 17:52 UTC

On 9/24/2021 11:11 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:
> On 9/22/2021 6:33 PM, ABLE1 wrote:
>> On 9/22/2021 8:08 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
>>> On 9/22/2021 3:40 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
>>>> On 9/19/2021 1:20 PM, ABLE1 wrote:
>>>>> On 9/19/2021 2:21 PM, Leon Fisk wrote:
>>>>>> On Sun, 19 Sep 2021 10:31:00 -0700
>>>>>> Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On the smallest mill I use regularly It has developed the habit
>>>>>>> of going
>>>>>>> into E-Stop when the coolant pump starts and stops.  Its
>>>>>>> controlled by
>>>>>>> an HH52P 24VDC coil relay.  The same model relay is used to
>>>>>>> control the
>>>>>>> spindle on-off signal to the VFD.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> All I use this machine for is engraving, but its still annoying.
>>>>>>> I have
>>>>>>> a simple work around.  Start the coolant pump manually (on screen
>>>>>>> button), and if it trips the e-stop reset and start it again.  Then
>>>>>>> begin code execution.  To be honest its not that big of a deal.  The
>>>>>>> shop is busy and I mostly just want to get parts out the door.
>>>>>>> Still I
>>>>>>> think it has to be a simple noise problem of some kind.  Maybe an
>>>>>>> especially noisy arc when the relay actuates.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm going to try a new relay.  These are probably the cheapest
>>>>>>> Chinese
>>>>>>> relays available.  (I did have to replace the spindle start relay a
>>>>>>> couple years ago).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What do you think is most likely?  Do you think there is a way to
>>>>>>> mitigate it?  Maybe with a choke?  Possibly a diode on the coil
>>>>>>> trigger
>>>>>>> input?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think if it is the relay itself its most likely the primary
>>>>>>> contacts
>>>>>>> because it happens sometimes on both pump start and pump stop.
>>>>>>> Neither
>>>>>>> affects the machine position since both happen when the machine is
>>>>>>> momentarily stationary.  Its just annoying.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It did not happen at all for the first several years I owned it,
>>>>>>> and it
>>>>>>> is the oldest CNC machine I use regularly.  (almost everyday)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It is a Mach3 controlled machine using a Smoothstepper for the
>>>>>>> motion
>>>>>>> interface between the PC and the BOB.  The wiring is pretty clean
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> orderly and I have checked every connection on the machine.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Other than being a cheap (relatively) Chinese cast iron dovetail
>>>>>>> mill,
>>>>>>> that like many I had to fix before it was passable to use, It really
>>>>>>> doesn't have any other problems.   Before getting other newer
>>>>>>> machines I
>>>>>>> made a lot of molds with this little machine.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well, now to order some more relays.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Bob,
>>>>> Just for some giggles!!  Can you get access to the actual contacts.
>>>>> If Yes, the try a simple piece of folded sandpaper or abrasive strip.
>>>>> The attempt would be to just clean the contacts of some carbon.
>>>>>
>>>>> If the relay is enclosed in a plastic cover maybe the cover can be
>>>>> popped off and the do the same as above.
>>>>>
>>>>> I just had an intermittent issue with a door open relay.  After
>>>>> replacing the relay and all worked as it should I took the cover off
>>>>> the relay and inspected the contacts with a microscope.  To the naked
>>>>> eye there was no issue visable, however with the microscope I could
>>>>> see some etching of the contact surface.  At that point it was not
>>>>> worth my time to clean it up and take it back to try to see if the
>>>>> customer gets re-irritated.  :-)
>>>>>
>>>>> Anyhow, for what you are doing it might be a quick fix and maybe a way
>>>>> to get convinced it really is the relay that is irritating you!!! :-)
>>>>>
>>>>> Later,
>>>>>
>>>>> Les
>>>>
>>>> I've got a half dozen relays in the mail.  I have three machines
>>>> that use these same relays (different names and mfgs but the same
>>>> basic relay) for a variety of switching and control.  I figure it
>>>> can't hurt to have some new in package on the shelf.  If a new relay
>>>> fixes the problem I probably won't worry about any further.  This
>>>> one worked great for several years.  I may throw some noise
>>>> cancelling component on the switched side if I remember.  Its not
>>>> like I don't have diodes and caps laying around... heck I though I
>>>> had spares of this relay, but I must have used my last one on
>>>> something.  I do have an unused base.  LOL.
>>>>
>>>> I guess I could have swapped the spindle relay to test, but I'm just
>>>> to darned busy these days.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Preliminary testings shows a new sub $5 relay did the trick.  Ordered
>>> on Ebay shipped from Amazon.  Maybe it was a sub $3 relay.  LOL.
>>>
>>
>> Congrats Bob!!
>>
>> You know that given the same daily workload feels like a lot more as
>> you age??  ;-)  Or something like that!!  LOL
>>
>> Les
>>
>
>
> Less feels like more.
>

Sooooo..... The new relay failed on the very first actual machine
operation. Of course after I had a part loaded and indexed to engrave.
I coated the part with cutting oil and engraved it anyway, but not a
satisfactory solution.

I tried a couple other relays. Still nothing.

I started tracing things out. The relay is triggered by another relay
on the BOB (break out board). It worked fine. The wiring was all
intact. No mouse droppings. In connecting and disconnecting things I
found a bad crimp in one of those stupid lugs required for European
terminal connection. Still nothing. Then one of the mounting base
screws would not tighten down. I replaced the mounting base, fixed the
bad crimp (cut the lug off and threw it away), and it still wouldn't
work. Then I put the original relay back in, and did a torture test of
tapping rapidly with the mouse on the onscreen coolant button. Perhaps
100 cycles rapidly and the pump cycled on and off without issue and
without putting the machine into E-stop.

Looks like maybe a combination of a bad crimp and a bad mounting block
may have been causing the whole problem. The original relay is back in
the machine.

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Re: Electrical Gremlin - Actual Question

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From: lfis...@gmail.invalid (Leon Fisk)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: Electrical Gremlin - Actual Question
Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2021 14:09:03 -0400
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Leon Fisk - Mon, 4 Oct 2021 18:09 UTC

On Mon, 4 Oct 2021 10:52:25 -0700
Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> wrote:

>Looks like maybe a combination of a bad crimp and a bad mounting block
>may have been causing the whole problem. The original relay is back in
>the machine.

Well... at least you didn't have to drive 100 miles in between
attempts...

All that old security wiring experience paying dividends ;-)

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI

Re: Electrical Gremlin - Actual Question

<sjfp3d$1aut$1@gioia.aioe.org>

 copy mid

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From: non...@none.com99 (Bob La Londe)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: Electrical Gremlin - Actual Question
Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2021 13:44:29 -0700
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID: <sjfp3d$1aut$1@gioia.aioe.org>
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 by: Bob La Londe - Mon, 4 Oct 2021 20:44 UTC

On 10/4/2021 11:09 AM, Leon Fisk wrote:
> On Mon, 4 Oct 2021 10:52:25 -0700
> Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> wrote:
>
>> Looks like maybe a combination of a bad crimp and a bad mounting block
>> may have been causing the whole problem. The original relay is back in
>> the machine.
>
> Well... at least you didn't have to drive 100 miles in between
> attempts...
>
> All that old security wiring experience paying dividends ;-)
>

LOL.

Sometimes more. I had a few outlying customers. Mostly because nobody
else wanted to drive out to take care of them. One was 75 miles one
way, and another 152 miles one way. I wonder who takes care of them now.

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Re: Electrical Gremlin - Actual Question

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From: muratla...@gmail.com (Jim Wilkins)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: Electrical Gremlin - Actual Question
Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2021 17:40:39 -0400
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 by: Jim Wilkins - Mon, 4 Oct 2021 21:40 UTC

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:sjff0r$kho$1@gioia.aioe.org...
....
Looks like maybe a combination of a bad crimp and a bad mounting block
may have been causing the whole problem. The original relay is back in
the machine.

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I've been using this for larger crimps for which I lack the proper tool:
https://www.amazon.com/IWISS-Terminal-Crimping-6-50mm%C2%B2-Electrician/dp/B017S9EINA/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8

It may not be 'right' either, but it's versatile enough to progressively
compress starter cable lugs and copper tubing into solid hex connections.

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