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tech / rec.bicycles.tech / Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?

SubjectAuthor
* Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?Muhammad Sarwar
`* Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?Tim R
 +- Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?AMuzi
 +* Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?AMuzi
 |`* Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?Tim R
 | +* Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?Tom Kunich
 | |`* Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?Luns Tee
 | | +* Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?Frank Krygowski
 | | |+- Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?Tom Kunich
 | | |+- Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?Luns Tee
 | | |`* Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?AMuzi
 | | | `* Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?Luns Tee
 | | |  `- Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?AMuzi
 | | `- Multi-stage air pumpsLuns Tee
 | +* Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?Frank Krygowski
 | |`* Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?John B.
 | | `* Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?russellseaton1@yahoo.com
 | |  +* Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?Frank Krygowski
 | |  |`* Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?John B.
 | |  | `* Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?Frank Krygowski
 | |  |  +- Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?John B.
 | |  |  +* Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?AMuzi
 | |  |  |+- Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?Tom Kunich
 | |  |  |`- Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?John B.
 | |  |  `* Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?Tom Kunich
 | |  |   +* Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?Frank Krygowski
 | |  |   |+* Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?Tom Kunich
 | |  |   ||+* Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?Frank Krygowski
 | |  |   |||`* Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?Tom Kunich
 | |  |   ||| `* Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?Frank Krygowski
 | |  |   |||  `* Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?Tom Kunich
 | |  |   |||   +- Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?Frank Krygowski
 | |  |   |||   `* Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?AMuzi
 | |  |   |||    +* Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?Tom Kunich
 | |  |   |||    |+* Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?AMuzi
 | |  |   |||    ||+- Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?Andre Jute
 | |  |   |||    ||+* Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?Frank Krygowski
 | |  |   |||    |||+* Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?Tom Kunich
 | |  |   |||    ||||`- Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?John B.
 | |  |   |||    |||+* Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?AMuzi
 | |  |   |||    ||||`- Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?John B.
 | |  |   |||    |||+* Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?Frank Krygowski
 | |  |   |||    ||||+- Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?John B.
 | |  |   |||    ||||`- Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?AMuzi
 | |  |   |||    |||+* Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?Tom Kunich
 | |  |   |||    ||||`- Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?John B.
 | |  |   |||    |||+* Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?Tom Kunich
 | |  |   |||    ||||`- Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?John B.
 | |  |   |||    |||+* Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?Frank Krygowski
 | |  |   |||    ||||`- Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?John B.
 | |  |   |||    |||+* Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?Tom Kunich
 | |  |   |||    ||||`- Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?Frank Krygowski
 | |  |   |||    |||+* Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?Tom Kunich
 | |  |   |||    ||||+* Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?Tom Kunich
 | |  |   |||    |||||+- Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?Tom Kunich
 | |  |   |||    |||||`- Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?Tom Kunich
 | |  |   |||    ||||+* Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?russellseaton1@yahoo.com
 | |  |   |||    |||||+- Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?John B.
 | |  |   |||    |||||`* Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?AMuzi
 | |  |   |||    ||||| `* Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?russellseaton1@yahoo.com
 | |  |   |||    |||||  `* Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?John B.
 | |  |   |||    |||||   `- Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?russellseaton1@yahoo.com
 | |  |   |||    ||||+- Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?John B.
 | |  |   |||    ||||`* Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?funkma...@hotmail.com
 | |  |   |||    |||| `* Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?Tom Kunich
 | |  |   |||    ||||  `- Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?John B.
 | |  |   |||    |||`- Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?Tom Kunich
 | |  |   |||    ||+* Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?russellseaton1@yahoo.com
 | |  |   |||    |||+- Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?AMuzi
 | |  |   |||    |||`- Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?John B.
 | |  |   |||    ||+- Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?russellseaton1@yahoo.com
 | |  |   |||    ||+- Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?funkma...@hotmail.com
 | |  |   |||    ||+- Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?russellseaton1@yahoo.com
 | |  |   |||    ||+- Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?russellseaton1@yahoo.com
 | |  |   |||    ||+- Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?funkma...@hotmail.com
 | |  |   |||    ||`- Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?funkma...@hotmail.com
 | |  |   |||    |`- Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?John B.
 | |  |   |||    `- Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?Frank Krygowski
 | |  |   ||`* Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?russellseaton1@yahoo.com
 | |  |   || +* Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?John B.
 | |  |   || |`* Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?Frank Krygowski
 | |  |   || | +* Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?Tom Kunich
 | |  |   || | |+* Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?Tim R
 | |  |   || | ||`- Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?John B.
 | |  |   || | |`- Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?John B.
 | |  |   || | `* Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?John B.
 | |  |   || |  `* Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?AMuzi
 | |  |   || |   `* Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?John B.
 | |  |   || |    +* Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?AMuzi
 | |  |   || |    |+* Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?Tom Kunich
 | |  |   || |    ||+* Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?funkma...@hotmail.com
 | |  |   || |    |||`* Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?Tom Kunich
 | |  |   || |    ||| `- Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?funkma...@hotmail.com
 | |  |   || |    ||+- Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?russellseaton1@yahoo.com
 | |  |   || |    ||`- Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?John B.
 | |  |   || |    |+* Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?Frank Krygowski
 | |  |   || |    ||`* Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?AMuzi
 | |  |   || |    || +* Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?Frank Krygowski
 | |  |   || |    || |+- Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?russellseaton1@yahoo.com
 | |  |   || |    || |`- Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?AMuzi
 | |  |   || |    || `- Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?Tom Kunich
 | |  |   || |    |`* Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?John B.
 | |  |   || |    `* Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?russellseaton1@yahoo.com
 | |  |   || `* Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?Tom Kunich
 | |  |   |`* Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?AMuzi
 | |  |   `- Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?John B.
 | |  +* Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?AMuzi
 | |  `- Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?John B.
 | `- Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?John B.
 `* Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?sms

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Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?

<8c2032fd-785a-44c5-876b-48dc24906b29n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?
From: sarwar.m...@gmail.com (Muhammad Sarwar)
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 by: Muhammad Sarwar - Sun, 6 Feb 2022 11:03 UTC

On Monday, June 18, 2007 at 5:49:19 PM UTC+5, Ned Mantei wrote:
> In article <di6c73hk4lgj0da1p...@4ax.com>,
> carl...@comcast.net wrote:
> snip
> >
> > And what's the story on presta? Or Presta?
> snip
> >
> > Carl Fogel
> For what it's worth, here in Switzerland Presta valves are colloquially
> called "French valves" ("franzoesische Ventile").
> Regards,
> Ned

Everyone can get to know everything about Schrader Valve to follow this article. https://bikereviews.info/schrader-valve/ . I personally found this article very informative. Cheers.

Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?

<2dcbe574-550a-4043-bbcd-f9c11d85b74fn@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?
From: timothy4...@gmail.com (Tim R)
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 by: Tim R - Sun, 6 Feb 2022 13:28 UTC

On Sunday, February 6, 2022 at 6:03:57 AM UTC-5, Muhammad Sarwar wrote:
> On Monday, June 18, 2007 at 5:49:19 PM UTC+5, Ned Mantei wrote:
> > In article <di6c73hk4lgj0da1p...@4ax.com>,
> > carl...@comcast.net wrote:
> > snip
> > >
> > > And what's the story on presta? Or Presta?
> > snip
> > >
> > > Carl Fogel
> > For what it's worth, here in Switzerland Presta valves are colloquially
> > called "French valves" ("franzoesische Ventile").
> > Regards,
> > Ned
> Everyone can get to know everything about Schrader Valve to follow this article. https://bikereviews.info/schrader-valve/ . I personally found this article very informative. Cheers.

Not mentioned in this article, but I've been told they were invented for airguns. When the hammer strikes the pin the air is released and shoots the bullet.

Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?

<stp781$qtm$1@dont-email.me>

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From: am...@yellowjersey.org (AMuzi)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?
Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2022 13:23:44 -0600
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 by: AMuzi - Sun, 6 Feb 2022 19:23 UTC

On 2/6/2022 12:02 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Sun, 6 Feb 2022 05:28:33 -0800 (PST), Tim R
> <timothy42bach@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sunday, February 6, 2022 at 6:03:57 AM UTC-5, Muhammad Sarwar wrote:
>>> On Monday, June 18, 2007 at 5:49:19 PM UTC+5, Ned Mantei wrote:
>>>> In article <di6c73hk4lgj0da1p...@4ax.com>,
>>>> carl...@comcast.net wrote:
>>>> snip
>>>>>
>>>>> And what's the story on presta? Or Presta?
>>>> snip
>>>>>
>>>>> Carl Fogel
>>>> For what it's worth, here in Switzerland Presta valves are colloquially
>>>> called "French valves" ("franzoesische Ventile").
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Ned
>>> Everyone can get to know everything about Schrader Valve to follow this article. https://bikereviews.info/schrader-valve/ . I personally found this article very informative. Cheers.
>>
>> Not mentioned in this article, but I've been told they were invented for airguns. When the hammer strikes the pin the air is released and shoots the bullet.
>
> Nice article from 2007. There seems to be some individuals, who fail
> to appreciate todays issues, and find comfort in raising old issues
> which are dead and buried. Since I can't offer a solution, I might as
> well become part of the problem.
>
> I doubt the air gun theory because air gun pressures are much higher
> than bicycle or automobile tire pressure:
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_gun>
> High pressure air at 4,900 PSI. Commodity 12 gram CO2 cylinders are
> pressurized to 853 PSI.
> <https://www.alzgas.com/Why-Should-You-Choose-a-12g-CO2-Cartridge-id3648259.html>
> Larger 88 gram CO2 cartridges at 4000 psi.
> <https://www.sefic.com.cn/29CC-18g-CO2-cartridges-CO2-gas-cylinder-size-chart-id580752.html>
> I suppose a Schrader valve might work in an air or CO2 gun, but only
> for one shot. Presta probably won't work because it has to be
> unscrewed in order to be opened and is probably too flimsy.
>
> It might be possible using aviation Schrader valves:
> <https://www.aviatorshotline.com/corporate-aircraft-article/valve-cores-aviation-applications>
> "The typical Schrader valve that we find in aviation tire applications
> is usually part number 6035 which has a standard operating pressure
> from 0 to 400 PSI and a normal operating pressures normally not over
> 70 PSI. However, the typical Schrader valve that we should find in an
> aviation shock strut or hydraulic accumulator should be Schrader part
> number 2300TV. This valve has an operating pressure from 0 to 2000
> PSI."
>
> Another problem is that the air flow through the Schrader valve is
> limited by the diameter of the valve. (Venturi restriction and
> Bernoulli's principle). That's why it takes a while for the air to
> empty out of a bicycle or automobile tire. For an air gun, one would
> want to the air to release suddenly and probably explosively. For
> that, one needs a rather large bore air valve, but not so large that
> it destroys the projectile:
> <https://www.google.com/search?q=pumpkin+cannon+design&tbm=isch>
>
> Spoiler: It's usually a butterfly valve and pneumatic actuator.
> <https://assuredautomation.com/news-and-training/pumpkin-chunkin-valve-assembly/>
> "A local college was designing an air cannon to launch pumpkins for
> their engineering class project. They were looking for a large
> diameter valve with a fast acting actuator to provide the air capacity
> they needed."
>

Launching pumpkins in an air cannon is an excellent image.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?

<stp8tp$7ar$1@dont-email.me>

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From: am...@yellowjersey.org (AMuzi)
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Subject: Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?
Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2022 13:52:24 -0600
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 by: AMuzi - Sun, 6 Feb 2022 19:52 UTC

On 2/6/2022 12:02 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Sun, 6 Feb 2022 05:28:33 -0800 (PST), Tim R
> <timothy42bach@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sunday, February 6, 2022 at 6:03:57 AM UTC-5, Muhammad Sarwar wrote:
>>> On Monday, June 18, 2007 at 5:49:19 PM UTC+5, Ned Mantei wrote:
>>>> In article <di6c73hk4lgj0da1p...@4ax.com>,
>>>> carl...@comcast.net wrote:
>>>> snip
>>>>>
>>>>> And what's the story on presta? Or Presta?
>>>> snip
>>>>>
>>>>> Carl Fogel
>>>> For what it's worth, here in Switzerland Presta valves are colloquially
>>>> called "French valves" ("franzoesische Ventile").
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Ned
>>> Everyone can get to know everything about Schrader Valve to follow this article. https://bikereviews.info/schrader-valve/ . I personally found this article very informative. Cheers.
>>
>> Not mentioned in this article, but I've been told they were invented for airguns. When the hammer strikes the pin the air is released and shoots the bullet.
>
> Nice article from 2007. There seems to be some individuals, who fail
> to appreciate todays issues, and find comfort in raising old issues
> which are dead and buried. Since I can't offer a solution, I might as
> well become part of the problem.
>
> I doubt the air gun theory because air gun pressures are much higher
> than bicycle or automobile tire pressure:
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_gun>
> High pressure air at 4,900 PSI. Commodity 12 gram CO2 cylinders are
> pressurized to 853 PSI.
> <https://www.alzgas.com/Why-Should-You-Choose-a-12g-CO2-Cartridge-id3648259.html>
> Larger 88 gram CO2 cartridges at 4000 psi.
> <https://www.sefic.com.cn/29CC-18g-CO2-cartridges-CO2-gas-cylinder-size-chart-id580752.html>
> I suppose a Schrader valve might work in an air or CO2 gun, but only
> for one shot. Presta probably won't work because it has to be
> unscrewed in order to be opened and is probably too flimsy.
>
> It might be possible using aviation Schrader valves:
> <https://www.aviatorshotline.com/corporate-aircraft-article/valve-cores-aviation-applications>
> "The typical Schrader valve that we find in aviation tire applications
> is usually part number 6035 which has a standard operating pressure
> from 0 to 400 PSI and a normal operating pressures normally not over
> 70 PSI. However, the typical Schrader valve that we should find in an
> aviation shock strut or hydraulic accumulator should be Schrader part
> number 2300TV. This valve has an operating pressure from 0 to 2000
> PSI."
>
> Another problem is that the air flow through the Schrader valve is
> limited by the diameter of the valve. (Venturi restriction and
> Bernoulli's principle). That's why it takes a while for the air to
> empty out of a bicycle or automobile tire. For an air gun, one would
> want to the air to release suddenly and probably explosively. For
> that, one needs a rather large bore air valve, but not so large that
> it destroys the projectile:
> <https://www.google.com/search?q=pumpkin+cannon+design&tbm=isch>
>
> Spoiler: It's usually a butterfly valve and pneumatic actuator.
> <https://assuredautomation.com/news-and-training/pumpkin-chunkin-valve-assembly/>
> "A local college was designing an air cannon to launch pumpkins for
> their engineering class project. They were looking for a large
> diameter valve with a fast acting actuator to provide the air capacity
> they needed."
>

There's no reason to make things up. First result in a search:

https://www.schradertpms.com/en/company/schrader-history/historical-timeline

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?

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Subject: Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?
From: timothy4...@gmail.com (Tim R)
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 by: Tim R - Mon, 7 Feb 2022 14:22 UTC

On Sunday, February 6, 2022 at 3:24:24 PM UTC-5, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sun, 06 Feb 2022 13:52:24 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
> >There's no reason to make things up. First result in a search:
> >https://www.schradertpms.com/en/company/schrader-history/historical-timeline
> Nothing in the timeline that mentions air guns.
>

No, because airguns predate inflatable rubber tires.

The airgun hammer opened valve operates precisely the way the Schrader valve does. Pressure holds it closed, the hammer strike opens it enough to let the correct amount of air escape. The mass of the hammer and the spring that drives it have to be carefully calculated to get consistent velocity.

Neither CO2 nor Precharged airguns exhaust the entire reservoir, unlike those inexpensive pumpup air rifles most of us had as kids. You get multiple shots. But either way uses a striker to open the valve, exactly how you release air from a Schrader valve. Since the internal pressure is what holds the valve closed, if you pump up one of those multipump Crosmans too far the striker can't release all the air and velocity starts to decrease. Also your arm gets tired.

The idea was that the airgun valve was the inspiration for the Schrader valve, and the working principle is the same, not that the Schrader valve itself is used on both. Airguns date to the 1500s although there is a claim for one about 1430, and the earliest pumped reservoir type in 1600, so a bit earlier than bicycles. (reference Robert Beeman, Airgun Digest, 1967) I don't remember where I read about the valves but will look for it.

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Subject: Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?
From: cyclin...@gmail.com (Tom Kunich)
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 by: Tom Kunich - Mon, 7 Feb 2022 15:06 UTC

On Monday, February 7, 2022 at 6:22:55 AM UTC-8, timoth...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, February 6, 2022 at 3:24:24 PM UTC-5, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Sun, 06 Feb 2022 13:52:24 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >
> > >There's no reason to make things up. First result in a search:
> > >https://www.schradertpms.com/en/company/schrader-history/historical-timeline
> > Nothing in the timeline that mentions air guns.
> >
> No, because airguns predate inflatable rubber tires.
>
> The airgun hammer opened valve operates precisely the way the Schrader valve does. Pressure holds it closed, the hammer strike opens it enough to let the correct amount of air escape. The mass of the hammer and the spring that drives it have to be carefully calculated to get consistent velocity.
>
> Neither CO2 nor Precharged airguns exhaust the entire reservoir, unlike those inexpensive pumpup air rifles most of us had as kids. You get multiple shots. But either way uses a striker to open the valve, exactly how you release air from a Schrader valve. Since the internal pressure is what holds the valve closed, if you pump up one of those multipump Crosmans too far the striker can't release all the air and velocity starts to decrease. Also your arm gets tired.
>
> The idea was that the airgun valve was the inspiration for the Schrader valve, and the working principle is the same, not that the Schrader valve itself is used on both. Airguns date to the 1500s although there is a claim for one about 1430, and the earliest pumped reservoir type in 1600, so a bit earlier than bicycles. (reference Robert Beeman, Airgun Digest, 1967) I don't remember where I read about the valves but will look for it.

The Presta Valve was invented by Sclaverand, who worked for a French company called Morin, which merged with a company named Poutrait in 1935 to form the company we know of today as Zefal. As someone else mentioned, rims were originally made of wood. I have had several track wheels which used wooden rims. Track tires over time became thinner and thinner until they were using 20 or even 18 mm tires. These rims needed the narrowest possible valve and so the French complied.

Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?

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Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?
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 by: Frank Krygowski - Mon, 7 Feb 2022 17:03 UTC

On 2/7/2022 9:22 AM, Tim R wrote:
> On Sunday, February 6, 2022 at 3:24:24 PM UTC-5, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Sun, 06 Feb 2022 13:52:24 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>>> There's no reason to make things up. First result in a search:
>>> https://www.schradertpms.com/en/company/schrader-history/historical-timeline
>> Nothing in the timeline that mentions air guns.
>>
>
> No, because airguns predate inflatable rubber tires.
>
> The airgun hammer opened valve operates precisely the way the Schrader valve does. Pressure holds it closed, the hammer strike opens it enough to let the correct amount of air escape. The mass of the hammer and the spring that drives it have to be carefully calculated to get consistent velocity.
>
> Neither CO2 nor Precharged airguns exhaust the entire reservoir, unlike those inexpensive pumpup air rifles most of us had as kids. You get multiple shots. But either way uses a striker to open the valve, exactly how you release air from a Schrader valve. Since the internal pressure is what holds the valve closed, if you pump up one of those multipump Crosmans too far the striker can't release all the air and velocity starts to decrease. Also your arm gets tired.
>
> The idea was that the airgun valve was the inspiration for the Schrader valve, and the working principle is the same, not that the Schrader valve itself is used on both. Airguns date to the 1500s although there is a claim for one about 1430, and the earliest pumped reservoir type in 1600, so a bit earlier than bicycles. (reference Robert Beeman, Airgun Digest, 1967) I don't remember where I read about the valves but will look for it.

Lewis & Clark took a large air rifle on their expedition to the Pacific.
They used it primarily (maybe only?) in demonstrations before each new
Native American tribe they encountered. Apparently, it was quite
powerful, and as opposed to a muzzle loader the Indians were familiar
with, it could be fire rounds every couple seconds or so. It generated a
lot of respect.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?

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From: scharf.s...@geemail.com (sms)
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Subject: Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2022 09:41:47 -0800
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 by: sms - Mon, 7 Feb 2022 17:41 UTC

On 2/6/2022 10:02 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

<snip>

> Nice article from 2007. There seems to be some individuals, who fail
> to appreciate todays issues, and find comfort in raising old issues
> which are dead and buried. Since I can't offer a solution, I might as
> well become part of the problem.

Invented by Frederick J. Presta in the 1930's.

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Subject: Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?
From: cyclin...@gmail.com (Tom Kunich)
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 by: Tom Kunich - Mon, 7 Feb 2022 17:55 UTC

On Monday, February 7, 2022 at 9:41:50 AM UTC-8, sms wrote:
> On 2/6/2022 10:02 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>
> <snip>
> > Nice article from 2007. There seems to be some individuals, who fail
> > to appreciate todays issues, and find comfort in raising old issues
> > which are dead and buried. Since I can't offer a solution, I might as
> > well become part of the problem.
> Invented by Frederick J. Presta in the 1930's.
Scharf, we don't need any of your bullshit. This is why you're nothing more than a political tool.

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Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?
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 by: John B. - Mon, 7 Feb 2022 23:22 UTC

On Mon, 7 Feb 2022 06:22:53 -0800 (PST), Tim R
<timothy42bach@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sunday, February 6, 2022 at 3:24:24 PM UTC-5, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Sun, 06 Feb 2022 13:52:24 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>> >There's no reason to make things up. First result in a search:
>> >https://www.schradertpms.com/en/company/schrader-history/historical-timeline
>> Nothing in the timeline that mentions air guns.
>>
>
>No, because airguns predate inflatable rubber tires.

The oldest existing mechanical air gun, a bellows air gun dating back
to about 1580, is in the Livrustkammaren Museum in Stockholm.

>The airgun hammer opened valve operates precisely the way the Schrader valve does. Pressure holds it closed, the hammer strike opens it enough to let the correct amount of air escape. The mass of the hammer and the spring that drives it have to be carefully calculated to get consistent velocity.
>
>Neither CO2 nor Precharged airguns exhaust the entire reservoir, unlike those inexpensive pumpup air rifles most of us had as kids. You get multiple shots. But either way uses a striker to open the valve, exactly how you release air from a Schrader valve. Since the internal pressure is what holds the valve closed, if you pump up one of those multipump Crosmans too far the striker can't release all the air and velocity starts to decrease. Also your arm gets tired.
>
>The idea was that the airgun valve was the inspiration for the Schrader valve, and the working principle is the same, not that the Schrader valve itself is used on both. Airguns date to the 1500s although there is a claim for one about 1430, and the earliest pumped reservoir type in 1600, so a bit earlier than bicycles. (reference Robert Beeman, Airgun Digest, 1967) I don't remember where I read about the valves but will look for it.

The original Schrader valve design was invented in 1891, and patented
in the United States in 1893.

So the airgun predated the tire valve by some 311 years. Slow learners
them tire people (;-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?

<7sa30h537n7j61v5rvdhn016s8gs26p643@4ax.com>

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From: slocom...@gmail.com (John B.)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?
Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2022 07:10:20 +0700
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 by: John B. - Tue, 8 Feb 2022 00:10 UTC

On Mon, 7 Feb 2022 12:03:48 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 2/7/2022 9:22 AM, Tim R wrote:
>> On Sunday, February 6, 2022 at 3:24:24 PM UTC-5, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Sun, 06 Feb 2022 13:52:24 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> There's no reason to make things up. First result in a search:
>>>> https://www.schradertpms.com/en/company/schrader-history/historical-timeline
>>> Nothing in the timeline that mentions air guns.
>>>
>>
>> No, because airguns predate inflatable rubber tires.
>>
>> The airgun hammer opened valve operates precisely the way the Schrader valve does. Pressure holds it closed, the hammer strike opens it enough to let the correct amount of air escape. The mass of the hammer and the spring that drives it have to be carefully calculated to get consistent velocity.
>>
>> Neither CO2 nor Precharged airguns exhaust the entire reservoir, unlike those inexpensive pumpup air rifles most of us had as kids. You get multiple shots. But either way uses a striker to open the valve, exactly how you release air from a Schrader valve. Since the internal pressure is what holds the valve closed, if you pump up one of those multipump Crosmans too far the striker can't release all the air and velocity starts to decrease. Also your arm gets tired.
>>
>> The idea was that the airgun valve was the inspiration for the Schrader valve, and the working principle is the same, not that the Schrader valve itself is used on both. Airguns date to the 1500s although there is a claim for one about 1430, and the earliest pumped reservoir type in 1600, so a bit earlier than bicycles. (reference Robert Beeman, Airgun Digest, 1967) I don't remember where I read about the valves but will look for it.
>
>Lewis & Clark took a large air rifle on their expedition to the Pacific.
>They used it primarily (maybe only?) in demonstrations before each new
>Native American tribe they encountered. Apparently, it was quite
>powerful, and as opposed to a muzzle loader the Indians were familiar
>with, it could be fire rounds every couple seconds or so. It generated a
>lot of respect.

In about 1790 the Girandoni air rifle carried twenty-two .51 caliber
(13 mm) lead balls in a tubular magazine. A skilled shooter could fire
off one magazine in about thirty seconds and a shot from this air gun
could penetrate an inch thick wooden board at a hundred paces, an
effect roughly equal to that of a modern 9×19mm or .45 ACP caliber
pistol.

In contrast a muzzle loading, smooth bore, musket of the times could
be fired, by an expert, some 3 to 4 shots a minute.
--
Cheers,

John B.

Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?

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Subject: Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?
From: ritzanna...@gmail.com (russellseaton1@yahoo.com)
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 by: russellseaton1@yahoo - Tue, 8 Feb 2022 19:16 UTC

On Monday, February 7, 2022 at 6:10:25 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
> On Mon, 7 Feb 2022 12:03:48 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> >On 2/7/2022 9:22 AM, Tim R wrote:
> >> On Sunday, February 6, 2022 at 3:24:24 PM UTC-5, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>> On Sun, 06 Feb 2022 13:52:24 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> There's no reason to make things up. First result in a search:
> >>>> https://www.schradertpms.com/en/company/schrader-history/historical-timeline
> >>> Nothing in the timeline that mentions air guns.
> >>>
> >>
> >> No, because airguns predate inflatable rubber tires.
> >>
> >> The airgun hammer opened valve operates precisely the way the Schrader valve does. Pressure holds it closed, the hammer strike opens it enough to let the correct amount of air escape. The mass of the hammer and the spring that drives it have to be carefully calculated to get consistent velocity..
> >>
> >> Neither CO2 nor Precharged airguns exhaust the entire reservoir, unlike those inexpensive pumpup air rifles most of us had as kids. You get multiple shots. But either way uses a striker to open the valve, exactly how you release air from a Schrader valve. Since the internal pressure is what holds the valve closed, if you pump up one of those multipump Crosmans too far the striker can't release all the air and velocity starts to decrease. Also your arm gets tired.
> >>
> >> The idea was that the airgun valve was the inspiration for the Schrader valve, and the working principle is the same, not that the Schrader valve itself is used on both. Airguns date to the 1500s although there is a claim for one about 1430, and the earliest pumped reservoir type in 1600, so a bit earlier than bicycles. (reference Robert Beeman, Airgun Digest, 1967) I don't remember where I read about the valves but will look for it.
> >
> >Lewis & Clark took a large air rifle on their expedition to the Pacific.
> >They used it primarily (maybe only?) in demonstrations before each new
> >Native American tribe they encountered. Apparently, it was quite
> >powerful, and as opposed to a muzzle loader the Indians were familiar
> >with, it could be fire rounds every couple seconds or so. It generated a
> >lot of respect.
> In about 1790 the Girandoni air rifle carried twenty-two .51 caliber
> (13 mm) lead balls in a tubular magazine. A skilled shooter could fire
> off one magazine in about thirty seconds and a shot from this air gun
> could penetrate an inch thick wooden board at a hundred paces, an
> effect roughly equal to that of a modern 9×19mm or .45 ACP caliber
> pistol.
>
> In contrast a muzzle loading, smooth bore, musket of the times could
> be fired, by an expert, some 3 to 4 shots a minute.
>
> --
> Cheers,
>
> John B.

Guessing this 1790 air gun did not take over gun powder for a propellant in firearms due to the complexity of reloading it? Required a large cumbersome stationary machine to reload the air gun with compressed air? Whereas black powder guns at the time could be loaded individually by the shooter almost anywhere by a flask of gunpowder carried easily by the shooter.

Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?

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From: lun...@berkeley.edu (Luns Tee)
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 by: Luns Tee - Tue, 8 Feb 2022 20:17 UTC

On Monday, February 7, 2022 at 7:06:24 AM UTC-8, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> The Presta Valve was invented by Sclaverand, who worked for a French company called Morin, which merged with a company named Poutrait in 1935 to form the company we know of today as Zefal. As someone else mentioned, rims were originally made of wood. I have had several track wheels which used wooden rims. Track tires over time became thinner and thinner until they were using 20 or even 18 mm tires. These rims needed the narrowest possible valve and so the French complied.

According to Zefal, Sclaverand was bought out by Morin. Yes, he presumably worked for Morin following that, but it's not clear whether the valve was invented before or after that. I'm a little surprised to not find an original patent for the valve as used for bicycle tires. The one patent cited on the Wikipedia page is actually for a floor pump with a pressure gauge, and the checkvalve for said pump is similar to (conical seal on a free moving unsprung rod), but appears to be significantly larger than, the valve we now know as Presta.

I'm actually a little surprised by this patent. I seem to recall claims that Silca had invented the idea of having a pressure gauge built into the pump - ie the Silca Pista - however that would have been decades after Sclaverand's patent. I think it would be reasonable to say that Silca _introduced_ (e.g. to its product line, or to a market where it wasn't already commonplace) such a pump and that had subsequently been misinterpreted as inventing..

Sclaverand patent GB189709082A: Improvements in Pumps for Inflating Pneumatic Tyres and the like.
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/patent/search?q=pn%3DGB189709082A

Sclaverand->Morin, AFA->Poutrait yadda yadda
https://www.zefal.com/en/about

The closest I could find to a patent for the valve was assigned to Morin (the person) with no reference to Sclaverand. This covers having lugs on the rod to prevent rotation, allowing the screw down locknut. The proportions do not look like a modern tire valve, and it may just be intended as a general pneumatic valve not targeting tires.
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/patent/search/family/001443743/publication/FR398743A?q=FR398743A

The next oldest patent of relevance I found was from 1953, was for improvements to the Sclaverand valve, and looks very much like a modern valve.
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/patent/search/family/009608596/publication/FR65696E?q=pn%3DFR65696E

While in the Morin rabbit-hole, I was also surprised to find a multi-stage floor pump - from 1903! At first glance, this looks much like the side-by-side Zefal double-shot floor pump, but closer inspection shows that the two barrels are themselves concentric double-acting pumps, with the hollow piston-rod that Jobst claimed hadn't been discovered until him.
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/patent/search/family/001377320/publication/FR327328A?q=FR327328A

I've long wanted to build my own variant of Jobst's concentric pump, with a smaller compression ratio (2:1) than what he used. Such a design is constrained by the maximum deliverable pressure and the maximum lifting force expected from the user. I have to think about it some more, but a third and maybe fourth stage might just allow stretching one or the other constraint, though probably not enough to be worth bothering, especially given how nobody since the Blackburn AirTower 5 seems to have bothered with having even a second stage.

Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?

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From: frkry...@sbcglobal.net (Frank Krygowski)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?
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 by: Frank Krygowski - Tue, 8 Feb 2022 20:52 UTC

On 2/8/2022 2:16 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Monday, February 7, 2022 at 6:10:25 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>> On Mon, 7 Feb 2022 12:03:48 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2/7/2022 9:22 AM, Tim R wrote:
>>>> On Sunday, February 6, 2022 at 3:24:24 PM UTC-5, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 06 Feb 2022 13:52:24 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> There's no reason to make things up. First result in a search:
>>>>>> https://www.schradertpms.com/en/company/schrader-history/historical-timeline
>>>>> Nothing in the timeline that mentions air guns.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> No, because airguns predate inflatable rubber tires.
>>>>
>>>> The airgun hammer opened valve operates precisely the way the Schrader valve does. Pressure holds it closed, the hammer strike opens it enough to let the correct amount of air escape. The mass of the hammer and the spring that drives it have to be carefully calculated to get consistent velocity.
>>>>
>>>> Neither CO2 nor Precharged airguns exhaust the entire reservoir, unlike those inexpensive pumpup air rifles most of us had as kids. You get multiple shots. But either way uses a striker to open the valve, exactly how you release air from a Schrader valve. Since the internal pressure is what holds the valve closed, if you pump up one of those multipump Crosmans too far the striker can't release all the air and velocity starts to decrease. Also your arm gets tired.
>>>>
>>>> The idea was that the airgun valve was the inspiration for the Schrader valve, and the working principle is the same, not that the Schrader valve itself is used on both. Airguns date to the 1500s although there is a claim for one about 1430, and the earliest pumped reservoir type in 1600, so a bit earlier than bicycles. (reference Robert Beeman, Airgun Digest, 1967) I don't remember where I read about the valves but will look for it.
>>>
>>> Lewis & Clark took a large air rifle on their expedition to the Pacific.
>>> They used it primarily (maybe only?) in demonstrations before each new
>>> Native American tribe they encountered. Apparently, it was quite
>>> powerful, and as opposed to a muzzle loader the Indians were familiar
>>> with, it could be fire rounds every couple seconds or so. It generated a
>>> lot of respect.
>> In about 1790 the Girandoni air rifle carried twenty-two .51 caliber
>> (13 mm) lead balls in a tubular magazine. A skilled shooter could fire
>> off one magazine in about thirty seconds and a shot from this air gun
>> could penetrate an inch thick wooden board at a hundred paces, an
>> effect roughly equal to that of a modern 9×19mm or .45 ACP caliber
>> pistol.
>>
>> In contrast a muzzle loading, smooth bore, musket of the times could
>> be fired, by an expert, some 3 to 4 shots a minute.
>>
>> --
>> Cheers,
>>
>> John B.
>
> Guessing this 1790 air gun did not take over gun powder for a propellant in firearms due to the complexity of reloading it? Required a large cumbersome stationary machine to reload the air gun with compressed air? Whereas black powder guns at the time could be loaded individually by the shooter almost anywhere by a flask of gunpowder carried easily by the shooter.

Something like that. IIRC they were used to some degree by some European
armies. I guess maintenance was quite tricky, requiring an unusually
skilled technician. Those guys were in short supply.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?

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From: am...@yellowjersey.org (AMuzi)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?
Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2022 14:59:31 -0600
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 by: AMuzi - Tue, 8 Feb 2022 20:59 UTC

On 2/8/2022 1:16 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Monday, February 7, 2022 at 6:10:25 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>> On Mon, 7 Feb 2022 12:03:48 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2/7/2022 9:22 AM, Tim R wrote:
>>>> On Sunday, February 6, 2022 at 3:24:24 PM UTC-5, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 06 Feb 2022 13:52:24 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> There's no reason to make things up. First result in a search:
>>>>>> https://www.schradertpms.com/en/company/schrader-history/historical-timeline
>>>>> Nothing in the timeline that mentions air guns.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> No, because airguns predate inflatable rubber tires.
>>>>
>>>> The airgun hammer opened valve operates precisely the way the Schrader valve does. Pressure holds it closed, the hammer strike opens it enough to let the correct amount of air escape. The mass of the hammer and the spring that drives it have to be carefully calculated to get consistent velocity.
>>>>
>>>> Neither CO2 nor Precharged airguns exhaust the entire reservoir, unlike those inexpensive pumpup air rifles most of us had as kids. You get multiple shots. But either way uses a striker to open the valve, exactly how you release air from a Schrader valve. Since the internal pressure is what holds the valve closed, if you pump up one of those multipump Crosmans too far the striker can't release all the air and velocity starts to decrease. Also your arm gets tired.
>>>>
>>>> The idea was that the airgun valve was the inspiration for the Schrader valve, and the working principle is the same, not that the Schrader valve itself is used on both. Airguns date to the 1500s although there is a claim for one about 1430, and the earliest pumped reservoir type in 1600, so a bit earlier than bicycles. (reference Robert Beeman, Airgun Digest, 1967) I don't remember where I read about the valves but will look for it.
>>>
>>> Lewis & Clark took a large air rifle on their expedition to the Pacific.
>>> They used it primarily (maybe only?) in demonstrations before each new
>>> Native American tribe they encountered. Apparently, it was quite
>>> powerful, and as opposed to a muzzle loader the Indians were familiar
>>> with, it could be fire rounds every couple seconds or so. It generated a
>>> lot of respect.
>> In about 1790 the Girandoni air rifle carried twenty-two .51 caliber
>> (13 mm) lead balls in a tubular magazine. A skilled shooter could fire
>> off one magazine in about thirty seconds and a shot from this air gun
>> could penetrate an inch thick wooden board at a hundred paces, an
>> effect roughly equal to that of a modern 9×19mm or .45 ACP caliber
>> pistol.
>>
>> In contrast a muzzle loading, smooth bore, musket of the times could
>> be fired, by an expert, some 3 to 4 shots a minute.
>>
>> --
>> Cheers,
>>
>> John B.
>
> Guessing this 1790 air gun did not take over gun powder for a propellant in firearms due to the complexity of reloading it? Required a large cumbersome stationary machine to reload the air gun with compressed air? Whereas black powder guns at the time could be loaded individually by the shooter almost anywhere by a flask of gunpowder carried easily by the shooter.
>

I knew nothing of it until mention here. Searching '1790 air
rifle' doesn't help- '1790' is a current model air rifle
(who knew?

Quite advanced and clever thing! Here's more:
https://warfarehistorynetwork.com/2016/12/13/lewis-and-clarks-girandoni-air-rifle/

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?

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Subject: Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?
From: cyclin...@gmail.com (Tom Kunich)
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 by: Tom Kunich - Tue, 8 Feb 2022 21:36 UTC

On Tuesday, February 8, 2022 at 12:59:38 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> On 2/8/2022 1:16 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > On Monday, February 7, 2022 at 6:10:25 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
> >> On Mon, 7 Feb 2022 12:03:48 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> >> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On 2/7/2022 9:22 AM, Tim R wrote:
> >>>> On Sunday, February 6, 2022 at 3:24:24 PM UTC-5, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>>> On Sun, 06 Feb 2022 13:52:24 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> There's no reason to make things up. First result in a search:
> >>>>>> https://www.schradertpms.com/en/company/schrader-history/historical-timeline
> >>>>> Nothing in the timeline that mentions air guns.
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> No, because airguns predate inflatable rubber tires.
> >>>>
> >>>> The airgun hammer opened valve operates precisely the way the Schrader valve does. Pressure holds it closed, the hammer strike opens it enough to let the correct amount of air escape. The mass of the hammer and the spring that drives it have to be carefully calculated to get consistent velocity.
> >>>>
> >>>> Neither CO2 nor Precharged airguns exhaust the entire reservoir, unlike those inexpensive pumpup air rifles most of us had as kids. You get multiple shots. But either way uses a striker to open the valve, exactly how you release air from a Schrader valve. Since the internal pressure is what holds the valve closed, if you pump up one of those multipump Crosmans too far the striker can't release all the air and velocity starts to decrease. Also your arm gets tired.
> >>>>
> >>>> The idea was that the airgun valve was the inspiration for the Schrader valve, and the working principle is the same, not that the Schrader valve itself is used on both. Airguns date to the 1500s although there is a claim for one about 1430, and the earliest pumped reservoir type in 1600, so a bit earlier than bicycles. (reference Robert Beeman, Airgun Digest, 1967) I don't remember where I read about the valves but will look for it.
> >>>
> >>> Lewis & Clark took a large air rifle on their expedition to the Pacific.
> >>> They used it primarily (maybe only?) in demonstrations before each new
> >>> Native American tribe they encountered. Apparently, it was quite
> >>> powerful, and as opposed to a muzzle loader the Indians were familiar
> >>> with, it could be fire rounds every couple seconds or so. It generated a
> >>> lot of respect.
> >> In about 1790 the Girandoni air rifle carried twenty-two .51 caliber
> >> (13 mm) lead balls in a tubular magazine. A skilled shooter could fire
> >> off one magazine in about thirty seconds and a shot from this air gun
> >> could penetrate an inch thick wooden board at a hundred paces, an
> >> effect roughly equal to that of a modern 9×19mm or .45 ACP caliber
> >> pistol.
> >>
> >> In contrast a muzzle loading, smooth bore, musket of the times could
> >> be fired, by an expert, some 3 to 4 shots a minute.
> >>
> >> --
> >> Cheers,
> >>
> >> John B.
> >
> > Guessing this 1790 air gun did not take over gun powder for a propellant in firearms due to the complexity of reloading it? Required a large cumbersome stationary machine to reload the air gun with compressed air? Whereas black powder guns at the time could be loaded individually by the shooter almost anywhere by a flask of gunpowder carried easily by the shooter.
> >
> I knew nothing of it until mention here. Searching '1790 air
> rifle' doesn't help- '1790' is a current model air rifle
> (who knew?
>
> Quite advanced and clever thing! Here's more:
> https://warfarehistorynetwork.com/2016/12/13/lewis-and-clarks-girandoni-air-rifle/

They didn't have real material for a good seal so I have to wonder how this air rifle was charged and how you could discharge it without the air pressure getting so low that the later shots had little pressure. Yes, they could use leather but try any bicycle pumps that use leather as an air seal and you know how rapidly they degrade.

Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?

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From: frkry...@sbcglobal.net (Frank Krygowski)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2022 16:40:08 -0500
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 by: Frank Krygowski - Tue, 8 Feb 2022 21:40 UTC

On 2/8/2022 3:17 PM, Luns Tee wrote:
>
> I've long wanted to build my own variant of Jobst's concentric pump, with a smaller compression ratio (2:1) than what he used. Such a design is constrained by the maximum deliverable pressure and the maximum lifting force expected from the user. I have to think about it some more, but a third and maybe fourth stage might just allow stretching one or the other constraint, though probably not enough to be worth bothering, especially given how nobody since the Blackburn AirTower 5 seems to have bothered with having even a second stage.

I didn't remember anything about Jobst and a concentric pump. Digging
around yielded this:
http://pardo.net/bike/pic/jobst/000.html#jobsts-double-acting-pumps

Apparently the idea was to use the upstroke to somewhat pressurize the
main "delivery" cylinder, and use the downstroke to further raise that
pressure and pump it into the tire or tube.

Did Jobst ever make a frame mounted version? Did anyone else? I know
there are double acting mini-pumps, but AFAIK they don't use the same
two stage operation. Correct me if I'm wrong.

(ISTR reading that more patents have been given for pumps than for any
other type of device. That's including pumps for many various fluids in
many various applications.)

--
- Frank Krygowski

Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?

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Subject: Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?
From: cyclin...@gmail.com (Tom Kunich)
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 by: Tom Kunich - Tue, 8 Feb 2022 22:06 UTC

On Tuesday, February 8, 2022 at 1:40:12 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 2/8/2022 3:17 PM, Luns Tee wrote:
> >
> > I've long wanted to build my own variant of Jobst's concentric pump, with a smaller compression ratio (2:1) than what he used. Such a design is constrained by the maximum deliverable pressure and the maximum lifting force expected from the user. I have to think about it some more, but a third and maybe fourth stage might just allow stretching one or the other constraint, though probably not enough to be worth bothering, especially given how nobody since the Blackburn AirTower 5 seems to have bothered with having even a second stage.
> I didn't remember anything about Jobst and a concentric pump. Digging
> around yielded this:
> http://pardo.net/bike/pic/jobst/000.html#jobsts-double-acting-pumps
>
> Apparently the idea was to use the upstroke to somewhat pressurize the
> main "delivery" cylinder, and use the downstroke to further raise that
> pressure and pump it into the tire or tube.
>
> Did Jobst ever make a frame mounted version? Did anyone else? I know
> there are double acting mini-pumps, but AFAIK they don't use the same
> two stage operation. Correct me if I'm wrong.
>
> (ISTR reading that more patents have been given for pumps than for any
> other type of device. That's including pumps for many various fluids in
> many various applications.)

I don't have any of those frame mounted pumps anymore but I recall that it was very easy to pump tires up to high pressure with one of them so it would have had to be two stage. I was still using 23 mm tires at that time and always ran 120 psi. And I always used to count the number of pump strokes to get up to 120 psi and the minipump had only twice the number as the floor pump. That couldn't work out over the area of the pump without two stages of pressurization.

Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?

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Subject: Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?
From: lun...@berkeley.edu (Luns Tee)
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 by: Luns Tee - Tue, 8 Feb 2022 22:14 UTC

On Tuesday, February 8, 2022 at 1:40:12 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 2/8/2022 3:17 PM, Luns Tee wrote:
> >
> > I've long wanted to build my own variant of Jobst's concentric pump, with a smaller compression ratio (2:1) than what he used. Such a design is constrained by the maximum deliverable pressure and the maximum lifting force expected from the user. I have to think about it some more, but a third and maybe fourth stage might just allow stretching one or the other constraint, though probably not enough to be worth bothering, especially given how nobody since the Blackburn AirTower 5 seems to have bothered with having even a second stage.

> I didn't remember anything about Jobst and a concentric pump. Digging
> around yielded this:
> http://pardo.net/bike/pic/jobst/000.html#jobsts-double-acting-pumps

He'd mentioned it on a few occasions here in r.b.t. Norman Yarvin kept some snippets of one of those times - see: https://yarchive.net/bike/double_acting_pump.html

> Apparently the idea was to use the upstroke to somewhat pressurize the
> main "delivery" cylinder, and use the downstroke to further raise that
> pressure and pump it into the tire or tube.

Yes. I think of it as taking a normal pump downstroke, where the first part is light and the real work is done later in the stroke, and folding the first part over to be done on the otherwise wasted upstroke. This means the intial pumping force required for the new downstroke is higher, and Jobst (over)compensates for this by using a smaller than typical bore. Ray Hosler has used Jobst's pump and has complained about how heavy the upstroke is, which is as I would anticipate for the compression ratio that Jobst used. My hunch is the higher downstroke force is acceptable and the output bore can be kept the same as conventional pumps.

I do have a Blackburn AirTower 5, which appears to keep more conventional dimension that Jobst. It works quite well, though an additional feature it had, of also using a switchable third pumping chamber in parallel with the two primary ones, was poorly implemented and is broken on my pump. I imagine this problem is what led to the pump being discontinued, but I'm perfectly happy without that extra volume.

> Did Jobst ever make a frame mounted version? Did anyone else? I know
> there are double acting mini-pumps, but AFAIK they don't use the same
> two stage operation. Correct me if I'm wrong.

AFAIK, Jobst was satisfied with his Silca Impero, and probably felt it wouldn't be worth the extra weight to make it double acting. Zefal did make a double-shot frame pump, and from the diagrams I've seen on the packaging, they're indeed two-stage pumps. I don't remember if there was a road-oriented variant, but I see a few MTB-oriented pumps (Mt. Zefal hp) on eBay. The small bore is 14mm, which should be much easier to push than the 19mm Impero.

> (ISTR reading that more patents have been given for pumps than for any
> other type of device. That's including pumps for many various fluids in
> many various applications.)

I can believe that. People have had many many years to ponder, invent, and reinvent ways to pump fluids.

-Luns

Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?

<stusb7$rb3$1@dont-email.me>

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From: am...@yellowjersey.org (AMuzi)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?
Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2022 16:54:29 -0600
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 by: AMuzi - Tue, 8 Feb 2022 22:54 UTC

On 2/8/2022 3:40 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 2/8/2022 3:17 PM, Luns Tee wrote:
>>
>> I've long wanted to build my own variant of Jobst's
>> concentric pump, with a smaller compression ratio (2:1)
>> than what he used. Such a design is constrained by the
>> maximum deliverable pressure and the maximum lifting force
>> expected from the user. I have to think about it some
>> more, but a third and maybe fourth stage might just allow
>> stretching one or the other constraint, though probably
>> not enough to be worth bothering, especially given how
>> nobody since the Blackburn AirTower 5 seems to have
>> bothered with having even a second stage.
>
> I didn't remember anything about Jobst and a concentric
> pump. Digging around yielded this:
> http://pardo.net/bike/pic/jobst/000.html#jobsts-double-acting-pumps
>
>
> Apparently the idea was to use the upstroke to somewhat
> pressurize the main "delivery" cylinder, and use the
> downstroke to further raise that pressure and pump it into
> the tire or tube.
>
> Did Jobst ever make a frame mounted version? Did anyone
> else? I know there are double acting mini-pumps, but AFAIK
> they don't use the same two stage operation. Correct me if
> I'm wrong.
>
> (ISTR reading that more patents have been given for pumps
> than for any other type of device. That's including pumps
> for many various fluids in many various applications.)
>

Yes. Prior art here:

http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/n_1pmp.jpg
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/n_1pmp_ho.jpg
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/n_1pmp_in.gif

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?

<4rs50hppum5826u4u8ttihf8mqn1rhsqa9@4ax.com>

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From: slocom...@gmail.com (John B.)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?
Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2022 06:07:44 +0700
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: John B. - Tue, 8 Feb 2022 23:07 UTC

On Tue, 8 Feb 2022 11:16:58 -0800 (PST), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
<ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Monday, February 7, 2022 at 6:10:25 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>> On Mon, 7 Feb 2022 12:03:48 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>> >On 2/7/2022 9:22 AM, Tim R wrote:
>> >> On Sunday, February 6, 2022 at 3:24:24 PM UTC-5, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
>> >>> On Sun, 06 Feb 2022 13:52:24 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> There's no reason to make things up. First result in a search:
>> >>>> https://www.schradertpms.com/en/company/schrader-history/historical-timeline
>> >>> Nothing in the timeline that mentions air guns.
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> No, because airguns predate inflatable rubber tires.
>> >>
>> >> The airgun hammer opened valve operates precisely the way the Schrader valve does. Pressure holds it closed, the hammer strike opens it enough to let the correct amount of air escape. The mass of the hammer and the spring that drives it have to be carefully calculated to get consistent velocity.
>> >>
>> >> Neither CO2 nor Precharged airguns exhaust the entire reservoir, unlike those inexpensive pumpup air rifles most of us had as kids. You get multiple shots. But either way uses a striker to open the valve, exactly how you release air from a Schrader valve. Since the internal pressure is what holds the valve closed, if you pump up one of those multipump Crosmans too far the striker can't release all the air and velocity starts to decrease. Also your arm gets tired.
>> >>
>> >> The idea was that the airgun valve was the inspiration for the Schrader valve, and the working principle is the same, not that the Schrader valve itself is used on both. Airguns date to the 1500s although there is a claim for one about 1430, and the earliest pumped reservoir type in 1600, so a bit earlier than bicycles. (reference Robert Beeman, Airgun Digest, 1967) I don't remember where I read about the valves but will look for it.
>> >
>> >Lewis & Clark took a large air rifle on their expedition to the Pacific.
>> >They used it primarily (maybe only?) in demonstrations before each new
>> >Native American tribe they encountered. Apparently, it was quite
>> >powerful, and as opposed to a muzzle loader the Indians were familiar
>> >with, it could be fire rounds every couple seconds or so. It generated a
>> >lot of respect.
>> In about 1790 the Girandoni air rifle carried twenty-two .51 caliber
>> (13 mm) lead balls in a tubular magazine. A skilled shooter could fire
>> off one magazine in about thirty seconds and a shot from this air gun
>> could penetrate an inch thick wooden board at a hundred paces, an
>> effect roughly equal to that of a modern 9×19mm or .45 ACP caliber
>> pistol.
>>
>> In contrast a muzzle loading, smooth bore, musket of the times could
>> be fired, by an expert, some 3 to 4 shots a minute.
>>
>> --
>> Cheers,
>>
>> John B.
>
>Guessing this 1790 air gun did not take over gun powder for a propellant in
firearms due to the complexity of reloading it? Required a large
cumbersome stationary machine to reload the air gun with compressed
air? Whereas black powder guns at the time could be loaded
individually by the shooter almost anywhere by a flask of gunpowder
carried easily by the shooter.

Well the he Girardoni air rifle was in service with the Austrian army
from 1780 to around 1815 - call it 35 years, so apparently it worked
and there are references to the Girardoni air rifles mention lethal
combat ranges of 125 to 150 yards.

Remember that standard Infantry tactics were to advance in massed
formation, fire a volley from, perhaps, 50 yards and charge with the
baronet.

Which as Neapolitan demonstrated worked well right up to the
development of the "rifled musket" which with it's longer range, which
the Americans demonstrated in the 1860's, made massed formations a
thing of the past.
--
Cheers,

John B.

Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?

<dvt50h5gsv16s0em1afe6pn5snd88cbgak@4ax.com>

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From: slocom...@gmail.com (John B.)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?
Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2022 06:09:48 +0700
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: John B. - Tue, 8 Feb 2022 23:09 UTC

On Tue, 8 Feb 2022 15:52:35 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 2/8/2022 2:16 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
>> On Monday, February 7, 2022 at 6:10:25 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>>> On Mon, 7 Feb 2022 12:03:48 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2/7/2022 9:22 AM, Tim R wrote:
>>>>> On Sunday, February 6, 2022 at 3:24:24 PM UTC-5, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>> On Sun, 06 Feb 2022 13:52:24 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There's no reason to make things up. First result in a search:
>>>>>>> https://www.schradertpms.com/en/company/schrader-history/historical-timeline
>>>>>> Nothing in the timeline that mentions air guns.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> No, because airguns predate inflatable rubber tires.
>>>>>
>>>>> The airgun hammer opened valve operates precisely the way the Schrader valve does. Pressure holds it closed, the hammer strike opens it enough to let the correct amount of air escape. The mass of the hammer and the spring that drives it have to be carefully calculated to get consistent velocity.
>>>>>
>>>>> Neither CO2 nor Precharged airguns exhaust the entire reservoir, unlike those inexpensive pumpup air rifles most of us had as kids. You get multiple shots. But either way uses a striker to open the valve, exactly how you release air from a Schrader valve. Since the internal pressure is what holds the valve closed, if you pump up one of those multipump Crosmans too far the striker can't release all the air and velocity starts to decrease. Also your arm gets tired.
>>>>>
>>>>> The idea was that the airgun valve was the inspiration for the Schrader valve, and the working principle is the same, not that the Schrader valve itself is used on both. Airguns date to the 1500s although there is a claim for one about 1430, and the earliest pumped reservoir type in 1600, so a bit earlier than bicycles. (reference Robert Beeman, Airgun Digest, 1967) I don't remember where I read about the valves but will look for it.
>>>>
>>>> Lewis & Clark took a large air rifle on their expedition to the Pacific.
>>>> They used it primarily (maybe only?) in demonstrations before each new
>>>> Native American tribe they encountered. Apparently, it was quite
>>>> powerful, and as opposed to a muzzle loader the Indians were familiar
>>>> with, it could be fire rounds every couple seconds or so. It generated a
>>>> lot of respect.
>>> In about 1790 the Girandoni air rifle carried twenty-two .51 caliber
>>> (13 mm) lead balls in a tubular magazine. A skilled shooter could fire
>>> off one magazine in about thirty seconds and a shot from this air gun
>>> could penetrate an inch thick wooden board at a hundred paces, an
>>> effect roughly equal to that of a modern 9×19mm or .45 ACP caliber
>>> pistol.
>>>
>>> In contrast a muzzle loading, smooth bore, musket of the times could
>>> be fired, by an expert, some 3 to 4 shots a minute.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> John B.
>>
>> Guessing this 1790 air gun did not take over gun powder for a propellant in firearms due to the complexity of reloading it? Required a large cumbersome stationary machine to reload the air gun with compressed air? Whereas black powder guns at the time could be loaded individually by the shooter almost anywhere by a flask of gunpowder carried easily by the shooter.
>
>Something like that. IIRC they were used to some degree by some European
>armies. I guess maintenance was quite tricky, requiring an unusually
>skilled technician. Those guys were in short supply.

Well, to an extent, firearms required a skilled technician. Remember
that this was long before the days if interchangeable parts.
--
Cheers,

John B.

Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?

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Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?
Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2022 06:15:51 +0700
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 by: John B. - Tue, 8 Feb 2022 23:15 UTC

On Tue, 8 Feb 2022 13:36:48 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Tuesday, February 8, 2022 at 12:59:38 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 2/8/2022 1:16 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> > On Monday, February 7, 2022 at 6:10:25 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>> >> On Mon, 7 Feb 2022 12:03:48 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>> >> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> On 2/7/2022 9:22 AM, Tim R wrote:
>> >>>> On Sunday, February 6, 2022 at 3:24:24 PM UTC-5, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
>> >>>>> On Sun, 06 Feb 2022 13:52:24 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>> There's no reason to make things up. First result in a search:
>> >>>>>> https://www.schradertpms.com/en/company/schrader-history/historical-timeline
>> >>>>> Nothing in the timeline that mentions air guns.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> No, because airguns predate inflatable rubber tires.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> The airgun hammer opened valve operates precisely the way the Schrader valve does. Pressure holds it closed, the hammer strike opens it enough to let the correct amount of air escape. The mass of the hammer and the spring that drives it have to be carefully calculated to get consistent velocity.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Neither CO2 nor Precharged airguns exhaust the entire reservoir, unlike those inexpensive pumpup air rifles most of us had as kids. You get multiple shots. But either way uses a striker to open the valve, exactly how you release air from a Schrader valve. Since the internal pressure is what holds the valve closed, if you pump up one of those multipump Crosmans too far the striker can't release all the air and velocity starts to decrease. Also your arm gets tired.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> The idea was that the airgun valve was the inspiration for the Schrader valve, and the working principle is the same, not that the Schrader valve itself is used on both. Airguns date to the 1500s although there is a claim for one about 1430, and the earliest pumped reservoir type in 1600, so a bit earlier than bicycles. (reference Robert Beeman, Airgun Digest, 1967) I don't remember where I read about the valves but will look for it.
>> >>>
>> >>> Lewis & Clark took a large air rifle on their expedition to the Pacific.
>> >>> They used it primarily (maybe only?) in demonstrations before each new
>> >>> Native American tribe they encountered. Apparently, it was quite
>> >>> powerful, and as opposed to a muzzle loader the Indians were familiar
>> >>> with, it could be fire rounds every couple seconds or so. It generated a
>> >>> lot of respect.
>> >> In about 1790 the Girandoni air rifle carried twenty-two .51 caliber
>> >> (13 mm) lead balls in a tubular magazine. A skilled shooter could fire
>> >> off one magazine in about thirty seconds and a shot from this air gun
>> >> could penetrate an inch thick wooden board at a hundred paces, an
>> >> effect roughly equal to that of a modern 9×19mm or .45 ACP caliber
>> >> pistol.
>> >>
>> >> In contrast a muzzle loading, smooth bore, musket of the times could
>> >> be fired, by an expert, some 3 to 4 shots a minute.
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Cheers,
>> >>
>> >> John B.
>> >
>> > Guessing this 1790 air gun did not take over gun powder for a propellant in firearms due to the complexity of reloading it? Required a large cumbersome stationary machine to reload the air gun with compressed air? Whereas black powder guns at the time could be loaded individually by the shooter almost anywhere by a flask of gunpowder carried easily by the shooter.
>> >
>> I knew nothing of it until mention here. Searching '1790 air
>> rifle' doesn't help- '1790' is a current model air rifle
>> (who knew?
>>
>> Quite advanced and clever thing! Here's more:
>> https://warfarehistorynetwork.com/2016/12/13/lewis-and-clarks-girandoni-air-rifle/
>
>They didn't have real material for a good seal so I have to wonder how this air rifle was charged and how you could discharge it without the air pressure getting so low that the later shots had little pressure. Yes, they could use leather but try any bicycle pumps that use leather as an air seal and you know how rapidly they degrade.

Well, the Girandoni air gun was in use by the Austrian Army for
something like 50 years, albeit for some years as a sniper's weapon.
--
Cheers,

John B.

Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?

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Subject: Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?
From: lun...@berkeley.edu (Luns Tee)
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 by: Luns Tee - Wed, 9 Feb 2022 00:45 UTC

On Tuesday, February 8, 2022 at 2:54:35 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> On 2/8/2022 3:40 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:

> > Did Jobst ever make a frame mounted version? Did anyone
> > else? I know there are double acting mini-pumps, but AFAIK
> > they don't use the same two stage operation. Correct me if
> > I'm wrong.

> Yes. Prior art here:
>
> http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/n_1pmp.jpg
> http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/n_1pmp_ho.jpg
> http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/n_1pmp_in.gif

Thanks for the pictures Andrew! I've read descriptions of this pump in the past, but never actually seen one before.

As far as I can tell, this would be a double-acting but not two-stage pumping, so this doesn't fit what Frank was asking. This appears to be essentially two independent pumps siamesed back-to-back, with separate inlets, both delivering air through the hollow pump shaft. The pull stroke would fortuitously have a smaller effective area, requiring less pull force than the push stroke, but it also contributes a smaller share of the delivered volume too.

The pumps under discussion use one stage to pre-pressurize air for a second stage. Only the first stage has an inlet, the second stage is fed from the first rather than from ambient air. The mt Zefal HP double-shot is the only such frame pump that I'm aware of.

-Luns

Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?

<stv36u$3vs$1@dont-email.me>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=51264&group=rec.bicycles.tech#51264

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From: am...@yellowjersey.org (AMuzi)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Why is it called a presta valve and who invented it and when?
Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2022 18:51:41 -0600
Organization: Yellow Jersey, Ltd.
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References: <di6c73hk4lgj0da1pf9p1j25klf0gtvglp@4ax.com> <mantei-DAA071.14491918062007@news1.ethz.ch> <8c2032fd-785a-44c5-876b-48dc24906b29n@googlegroups.com> <2dcbe574-550a-4043-bbcd-f9c11d85b74fn@googlegroups.com> <jt000h1bd3fvikudm2q5avhqffgo49e6tu@4ax.com> <stp8tp$7ar$1@dont-email.me> <lja00hlf640erispotgqetnlop3beu3vvc@4ax.com> <d4a1b77b-a3ff-4d3f-bd78-0d85ecb63bacn@googlegroups.com> <3886c849-ff1c-4775-834a-fd5ee3f9f5dfn@googlegroups.com> <8961f293-222f-4f3e-a924-f821ec8a8448n@googlegroups.com> <stunvp$v6l$1@dont-email.me> <stusb7$rb3$1@dont-email.me> <bd314217-9a7a-41d9-9a61-348ccfba5242n@googlegroups.com>
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 by: AMuzi - Wed, 9 Feb 2022 00:51 UTC

On 2/8/2022 6:45 PM, Luns Tee wrote:
> On Tuesday, February 8, 2022 at 2:54:35 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 2/8/2022 3:40 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>
>>> Did Jobst ever make a frame mounted version? Did anyone
>>> else? I know there are double acting mini-pumps, but AFAIK
>>> they don't use the same two stage operation. Correct me if
>>> I'm wrong.
>
>> Yes. Prior art here:
>>
>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/n_1pmp.jpg
>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/n_1pmp_ho.jpg
>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/n_1pmp_in.gif
>
> Thanks for the pictures Andrew! I've read descriptions of this pump in the past, but never actually seen one before.
>
> As far as I can tell, this would be a double-acting but not two-stage pumping, so this doesn't fit what Frank was asking. This appears to be essentially two independent pumps siamesed back-to-back, with separate inlets, both delivering air through the hollow pump shaft. The pull stroke would fortuitously have a smaller effective area, requiring less pull force than the push stroke, but it also contributes a smaller share of the delivered volume too.
>
> The pumps under discussion use one stage to pre-pressurize air for a second stage. Only the first stage has an inlet, the second stage is fed from the first rather than from ambient air. The mt Zefal HP double-shot is the only such frame pump that I'm aware of.
>
> -Luns
>

Thanks. I never actually used one of those, you made the
distinction clear.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

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