On Friday, February 4, 2022 at 12:21:48 p.m. UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> On 2/4/2022 9:18 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Friday, February 4, 2022 at 6:11:31 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> >> On 2/3/2022 11:41 PM, John B. wrote:
> >>> On Thu, 3 Feb 2022 13:24:24 -0800 (PST), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> >>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On Thursday, February 3, 2022 at 11:24:05 AM UTC-6, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>>> On Wednesday, February 2, 2022 at 4:35:35 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>>>> On 2/2/2022 3:50 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Wednesday, February 2, 2022 at 12:21:24 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On 2/2/2022 12:37 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> But please stop hanging around on .tech and giving us the entirely incorrect advice from your long years of doing things wrong.
> >>>>>>>> :-) That's pretty funny! _Me_ doing things wrong?? :-)
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Tom, did you get your saddle to stay attached after it fell off?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Have you finally managed to get your handlebars to stop slipping down?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Have you figured out yet which model Garmin you bought, and how to get
> >>>>>>>> it to display what you want it to show?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> How's your derailleur adjustment these days? IIRC, last we heard it
> >>>>>>>> shifted fine on small cogs but not on large - or was that vice versa?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Do you still need more help ordering the right bottom bracket components?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Did you ever get the right wires and components for your Di2, or did you
> >>>>>>>> just give up?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> But hey, congratulations of finding something to hold you up when you
> >>>>>>>> nearly toppled while climbing a hill. Maybe your luck is finally
> >>>>>>>> starting to improve!
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Frank, I use new parts all the time. I'm well aware that you've already said that if you made a wrong choice you wouldn't advertise it ...
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I think your memory is faulty yet again, Tom. But it doesn't matter
> >>>>>> much. I tend to research what I buy fairly carefully, and I don't make
> >>>>>> one hundredth the mistakes you do.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> You are an incompetent idiot that Jobst made fun of ...
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Bullshit. Jobst and I corresponded quite pleasantly. And if he were here
> >>>>>> he'd be raking you over the coals as he always did, and it would be well
> >>>>>> justified.
> >>>>> \My memory isn't faulty, you think that anything newer than 1970 is worthless junk and you wouldn't admit ever using it even if it was the only thing available. You have continuously made that crystal clear to everyone here. So make any claims you like but it isn't fooling anyone.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Anything newer than 1970 is worthless junk? I would definitely disagree with that assertion. Assuming of course that Frank made such an assertion. Which he did not. Tommy made that up. The late Nuovo Record was introduced in 1967. And that was followed by Super Record in 1973. That was used by Campy up into the 1980s at least. Classic. Even if it didn't work all that well and was surpassed by superior Japanese components from Shimano and Suntour. But at least it was better than the French stuff. And then of course came the most beautiful Campagnolo or any bike components ever made on earth. Campagnolo C Record. Early mid 1980s. I see on eBay that this old Campagnolo stuff is selling for crazy prices. I love C Record for its looks, but don't know if I am that crazy to pay many thousands of dollars for it.
> >>>
> >>> I always thought that the Campi Delta brakes were the slickest things
> >>> ever. I did read that they were in fact a rather poor brake but who
> >>> cares, damn they were slick looking. And, of course expensive.
> >>>
> >>> Years and years later I came across a bloke at a "swap meet" who had a
> >>> whole bunch of Campagnolo stuff and right there at the front of his
> >>> table was a set of Delta brakes. Hot Damn! I'm going to, finally, get
> >>> a set of Delta Brakes and I bellied right up to the table and says,
> >>> "how much for them old brakes there?" The guy sort of smiled and
> >>> quoted a price and after my heart palpitations settled down he sort of
> >>> smiled some more and commented, "Some of this older Campi stuff is
> >>> sort of dear these days".
> >>>
> >>> Needless to say I never did get to have any Delta Brakes (:-(
> >>>
> >> They are of a distinct aesthetic but the leverage is all wrong.
> >
> > You could adjust them so that the leverage was pretty good. The brake shoe material they were using at the time wore fairly rapidly and this would reduce the leverage and the brakes rapidly faded away. Remember that even Mavic made a set of Delta brakes as well. And didn't I see some modern version of them recently?
> >
> Some of the many Delta foibles you may have forgotten over
> and beyond the leverage issue:
>
> https://www.bikehugger.com/posts/the-campagnolo-delta-brake/
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

I have the old Dura Ace AX brake calipers on one of my bicycles and those calipers work really well. I remember the first time back in the mid-1980's when I hit the brakes hard in a panic stop and lifted the rear wheel quite a bit. I immediately released the front brake lever to maintain control.

Iirc, the "modulation" of the Campagnolo Delta brake calipers was applied once it was discovered that those brakes didn't stop a bicycle very well. "Modulation" rather than true stopping power was said to be what the pros wanted.

I didn't realize that the Delta brake calipers had such a complicated assembly. The Shimano AX brake calipers are quite simple in comparison.

Cheers

On Thursday, February 3, 2022 at 11:41:26 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
> On Thu, 3 Feb 2022 13:24:24 -0800 (PST), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Thursday, February 3, 2022 at 11:24:05 AM UTC-6, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> On Wednesday, February 2, 2022 at 4:35:35 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >> > On 2/2/2022 3:50 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >> > > On Wednesday, February 2, 2022 at 12:21:24 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >> > >> On 2/2/2022 12:37 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >> > >>> But please stop hanging around on .tech and giving us the entirely incorrect advice from your long years of doing things wrong.
> >> > >> :-) That's pretty funny! _Me_ doing things wrong?? :-)
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Tom, did you get your saddle to stay attached after it fell off?
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Have you finally managed to get your handlebars to stop slipping down?
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Have you figured out yet which model Garmin you bought, and how to get
> >> > >> it to display what you want it to show?
> >> > >>
> >> > >> How's your derailleur adjustment these days? IIRC, last we heard it
> >> > >> shifted fine on small cogs but not on large - or was that vice versa?
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Do you still need more help ordering the right bottom bracket components?
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Did you ever get the right wires and components for your Di2, or did you
> >> > >> just give up?
> >> > >>
> >> > >> But hey, congratulations of finding something to hold you up when you
> >> > >> nearly toppled while climbing a hill. Maybe your luck is finally
> >> > >> starting to improve!
> >> > >
> >> > > Frank, I use new parts all the time. I'm well aware that you've already said that if you made a wrong choice you wouldn't advertise it ...
> >> >
> >> > I think your memory is faulty yet again, Tom. But it doesn't matter
> >> > much. I tend to research what I buy fairly carefully, and I don't make
> >> > one hundredth the mistakes you do.
> >> >
> >> > > You are an incompetent idiot that Jobst made fun of ...
> >> >
> >> > Bullshit. Jobst and I corresponded quite pleasantly. And if he were here
> >> > he'd be raking you over the coals as he always did, and it would be well
> >> > justified.
> >> \My memory isn't faulty, you think that anything newer than 1970 is worthless junk and you wouldn't admit ever using it even if it was the only thing available. You have continuously made that crystal clear to everyone here. So make any claims you like but it isn't fooling anyone.
> >
> >
> >Anything newer than 1970 is worthless junk? I would definitely disagree with that assertion. Assuming of course that Frank made such an assertion. Which he did not. Tommy made that up. The late Nuovo Record was introduced in 1967. And that was followed by Super Record in 1973. That was used by Campy up into the 1980s at least. Classic. Even if it didn't work all that well and was surpassed by superior Japanese components from Shimano and Suntour. But at least it was better than the French stuff. And then of course came the most beautiful Campagnolo or any bike components ever made on earth. Campagnolo C Record. Early mid 1980s. I see on eBay that this old Campagnolo stuff is selling for crazy prices. I love C Record for its looks, but don't know if I am that crazy to pay many thousands of dollars for it.
> I always thought that the Campi Delta brakes were the slickest things
> ever. I did read that they were in fact a rather poor brake but who
> cares, damn they were slick looking. And, of course expensive.

Yes, Campagnolo Delta brakes were pornography on bikes. The good kind of pornography. I also heard they did not brake too well. You squeezed as hard as you could. Bringing the brake lever in until it stopped against the handlebar. Then you pulled your cleats out of your Alfredo Binda toestraps, and drug your shoes on the ground. And hopefully you would stop before running the stoplight and then being stopped by the car you broadsided. But bike racers don't use brakes in races. So their functionality was a mere sidenote.

>
> Years and years later I came across a bloke at a "swap meet" who had a
> whole bunch of Campagnolo stuff and right there at the front of his
> table was a set of Delta brakes. Hot Damn! I'm going to, finally, get
> a set of Delta Brakes and I bellied right up to the table and says,
> "how much for them old brakes there?" The guy sort of smiled and
> quoted a price and after my heart palpitations settled down he sort of
> smiled some more and commented, "Some of this older Campi stuff is
> sort of dear these days".
>
> Needless to say I never did get to have any Delta Brakes (:-(
> --
> Cheers,
>
> John B.

On 2/4/2022 2:24 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
> On Friday, February 4, 2022 at 12:21:48 p.m. UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 2/4/2022 9:18 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> On Friday, February 4, 2022 at 6:11:31 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 2/3/2022 11:41 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 3 Feb 2022 13:24:24 -0800 (PST), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>>>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thursday, February 3, 2022 at 11:24:05 AM UTC-6, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>> On Wednesday, February 2, 2022 at 4:35:35 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 2/2/2022 3:50 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, February 2, 2022 at 12:21:24 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 2/2/2022 12:37 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> But please stop hanging around on .tech and giving us the entirely incorrect advice from your long years of doing things wrong.
>>>>>>>>>> :-) That's pretty funny! _Me_ doing things wrong?? :-)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Tom, did you get your saddle to stay attached after it fell off?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Have you finally managed to get your handlebars to stop slipping down?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Have you figured out yet which model Garmin you bought, and how to get
>>>>>>>>>> it to display what you want it to show?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> How's your derailleur adjustment these days? IIRC, last we heard it
>>>>>>>>>> shifted fine on small cogs but not on large - or was that vice versa?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Do you still need more help ordering the right bottom bracket components?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Did you ever get the right wires and components for your Di2, or did you
>>>>>>>>>> just give up?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> But hey, congratulations of finding something to hold you up when you
>>>>>>>>>> nearly toppled while climbing a hill. Maybe your luck is finally
>>>>>>>>>> starting to improve!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Frank, I use new parts all the time. I'm well aware that you've already said that if you made a wrong choice you wouldn't advertise it ...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I think your memory is faulty yet again, Tom. But it doesn't matter
>>>>>>>> much. I tend to research what I buy fairly carefully, and I don't make
>>>>>>>> one hundredth the mistakes you do.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You are an incompetent idiot that Jobst made fun of ...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Bullshit. Jobst and I corresponded quite pleasantly. And if he were here
>>>>>>>> he'd be raking you over the coals as he always did, and it would be well
>>>>>>>> justified.
>>>>>>> \My memory isn't faulty, you think that anything newer than 1970 is worthless junk and you wouldn't admit ever using it even if it was the only thing available. You have continuously made that crystal clear to everyone here. So make any claims you like but it isn't fooling anyone.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Anything newer than 1970 is worthless junk? I would definitely disagree with that assertion. Assuming of course that Frank made such an assertion. Which he did not. Tommy made that up. The late Nuovo Record was introduced in 1967. And that was followed by Super Record in 1973. That was used by Campy up into the 1980s at least. Classic. Even if it didn't work all that well and was surpassed by superior Japanese components from Shimano and Suntour. But at least it was better than the French stuff. And then of course came the most beautiful Campagnolo or any bike components ever made on earth. Campagnolo C Record. Early mid 1980s. I see on eBay that this old Campagnolo stuff is selling for crazy prices. I love C Record for its looks, but don't know if I am that crazy to pay many thousands of dollars for it.
>>>>>
>>>>> I always thought that the Campi Delta brakes were the slickest things
>>>>> ever. I did read that they were in fact a rather poor brake but who
>>>>> cares, damn they were slick looking. And, of course expensive.
>>>>>
>>>>> Years and years later I came across a bloke at a "swap meet" who had a
>>>>> whole bunch of Campagnolo stuff and right there at the front of his
>>>>> table was a set of Delta brakes. Hot Damn! I'm going to, finally, get
>>>>> a set of Delta Brakes and I bellied right up to the table and says,
>>>>> "how much for them old brakes there?" The guy sort of smiled and
>>>>> quoted a price and after my heart palpitations settled down he sort of
>>>>> smiled some more and commented, "Some of this older Campi stuff is
>>>>> sort of dear these days".
>>>>>
>>>>> Needless to say I never did get to have any Delta Brakes (:-(
>>>>>
>>>> They are of a distinct aesthetic but the leverage is all wrong.
>>>
>>> You could adjust them so that the leverage was pretty good. The brake shoe material they were using at the time wore fairly rapidly and this would reduce the leverage and the brakes rapidly faded away. Remember that even Mavic made a set of Delta brakes as well. And didn't I see some modern version of them recently?
>>>
>> Some of the many Delta foibles you may have forgotten over
>> and beyond the leverage issue:
>>
>> https://www.bikehugger.com/posts/the-campagnolo-delta-brake/

>
> I have the old Dura Ace AX brake calipers on one of my bicycles and those calipers work really well. I remember the first time back in the mid-1980's when I hit the brakes hard in a panic stop and lifted the rear wheel quite a bit. I immediately released the front brake lever to maintain control.
>
> Iirc, the "modulation" of the Campagnolo Delta brake calipers was applied once it was discovered that those brakes didn't stop a bicycle very well. "Modulation" rather than true stopping power was said to be what the pros wanted.
>
> I didn't realize that the Delta brake calipers had such a complicated assembly. The Shimano AX brake calipers are quite simple in comparison.
>
> Cheers
>

There's not much similarity except a general shape when
viewed from across the street. A couple of minutes with both
caliper styles and a vernier caliper will reveal why the AX
design actually stops while the Delta leverage is inadequate.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Friday, February 4, 2022 at 12:48:43 AM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
> On Thu, 03 Feb 2022 17:45:23 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
> wrote:
> >On Thu, 3 Feb 2022 14:18:49 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
> ><cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >>Why are you making fun of French spelling? And don't you know what the English translation of lanterne is? Or perhaps you don't know that Rouge is also English for Red? https://www.color-hex.com/color-palette/18688
> >
> >"List of English words of French origin"
> ><https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_words_of_French_origin>
> >"... 45% of all English words have a French origin."
> Largely, I would suggest, because there was a period in English
> History when the "Gentry" spoke French (:-)
> --
> Cheers,
>
> John B.

But didn't France and England mix up kings and queens a few times too? The married, widowed, sister king or queen of one became the other's king or queen or maid servant or mistress. Or the cousin or sister of one married the other's aunt and the offspring became queens and kings. I know there is some historical connection between all the royal families of those two countries.

On Friday, February 4, 2022 at 11:21:48 AM UTC-6, AMuzi wrote:
> Some of the many Delta foibles you may have forgotten over
> and beyond the leverage issue:
>
> https://www.bikehugger.com/posts/the-campagnolo-delta-brake/
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Andy, did you ever get the thrill, excitement, joy, and dare I say it, ecstasy, of working on the Delta brakes in your mechanic life? There must be some millionaire bicyclists up in Madison riding this Campagnolo creation.

On 2/4/2022 3:24 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
> On Friday, February 4, 2022 at 12:21:48 p.m. UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>>>
>> Some of the many Delta foibles you may have forgotten over
>> and beyond the leverage issue:
>>
>> https://www.bikehugger.com/posts/the-campagnolo-delta-brake/
>> --
>
> I have the old Dura Ace AX brake calipers on one of my bicycles and those calipers work really well. I remember the first time back in the mid-1980's when I hit the brakes hard in a panic stop and lifted the rear wheel quite a bit. I immediately released the front brake lever to maintain control.
>
> Iirc, the "modulation" of the Campagnolo Delta brake calipers was applied once it was discovered that those brakes didn't stop a bicycle very well. "Modulation" rather than true stopping power was said to be what the pros wanted.
>
> I didn't realize that the Delta brake calipers had such a complicated assembly. The Shimano AX brake calipers are quite simple in comparison.

To me, it's interesting to browse _The Data Book_ and other sources to
look at all the historic variations in bike brakes. It seems every
conceivable mechanism has been tried at one time or other. But the Delta
brakes must be close to the record (um... so to speak) for the greatest
number of bits, the most complicated assembly.

I tend to prefer simplicity to complexity.

I suspect the Delta idea was to move the shoes quickly to toward the rim
(i.e. with low mechanical advantage) and have the mechanical advantage
be higher for stronger brake force once they contacted. But that
increase in mechanical advantage would be very dependent on things like
the initial adjustment, the wear of the brake pads, etc. Seems to me it
would be unpredictable.

David Gordon Wilson, in the first edition of _Bicycling Science_, had a
proposal and prototype for a brake that performed that change in
mechanical advantage; but instead of a continuous change, it was
supposed to occur as a step change once the rim was contacted. He
bemoaned the fact that no manufacturers were interested. I'd bet that
the action was unpredictable, perhaps even dangerously so.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 2/4/2022 2:55 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Friday, February 4, 2022 at 12:48:43 AM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>> On Thu, 03 Feb 2022 17:45:23 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
>> wrote:
>>> On Thu, 3 Feb 2022 14:18:49 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
>>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Why are you making fun of French spelling? And don't you know what the English translation of lanterne is? Or perhaps you don't know that Rouge is also English for Red? https://www.color-hex.com/color-palette/18688
>>>
>>> "List of English words of French origin"
>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_words_of_French_origin>
>>> "... 45% of all English words have a French origin."
>> Largely, I would suggest, because there was a period in English
>> History when the "Gentry" spoke French (:-)
>> --
>> Cheers,
>>
>> John B.
>
> But didn't France and England mix up kings and queens a few times too? The married, widowed, sister king or queen of one became the other's king or queen or maid servant or mistress. Or the cousin or sister of one married the other's aunt and the offspring became queens and kings. I know there is some historical connection between all the royal families of those two countries.
>

Right you are.

The Habsburg, Hohenzollern, Bourbon, Saxe Goteburg, Romanov
and others have family trees which look like a micrograph of
felt fibers. When one cannot generally marry a commoner
that's just what happens.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 2/4/2022 3:05 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Friday, February 4, 2022 at 11:21:48 AM UTC-6, AMuzi wrote:
>> Some of the many Delta foibles you may have forgotten over
>> and beyond the leverage issue:
>>
>> https://www.bikehugger.com/posts/the-campagnolo-delta-brake/

> Andy, did you ever get the thrill, excitement, joy, and dare I say it, ecstasy, of working on the Delta brakes in your mechanic life? There must be some millionaire bicyclists up in Madison riding this Campagnolo creation.
>

Of course. We still service them. I even made a handy 3.5mm
T-wrench. Delta do not lend themselves to home mechanics.

Although more expensive than, f'rinstance my own Weinmann
500, they weren't 'out of reach' pricey compared to common
things much more expensive at that time, a Holley carburetor
or an early HP Laser printer.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 2/4/2022 3:20 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 2/4/2022 3:24 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
>> On Friday, February 4, 2022 at 12:21:48 p.m. UTC-5, AMuzi
>> wrote:
>>>>
>>> Some of the many Delta foibles you may have forgotten over
>>> and beyond the leverage issue:
>>>
>>> https://www.bikehugger.com/posts/the-campagnolo-delta-brake/
>>> --
>>
>> I have the old Dura Ace AX brake calipers on one of my
>> bicycles and those calipers work really well. I remember
>> the first time back in the mid-1980's when I hit the
>> brakes hard in a panic stop and lifted the rear wheel
>> quite a bit. I immediately released the front brake lever
>> to maintain control.
>>
>> Iirc, the "modulation" of the Campagnolo Delta brake
>> calipers was applied once it was discovered that those
>> brakes didn't stop a bicycle very well. "Modulation"
>> rather than true stopping power was said to be what the
>> pros wanted.
>>
>> I didn't realize that the Delta brake calipers had such a
>> complicated assembly. The Shimano AX brake calipers are
>> quite simple in comparison.
>
> To me, it's interesting to browse _The Data Book_ and other
> sources to look at all the historic variations in bike
> brakes. It seems every conceivable mechanism has been tried
> at one time or other. But the Delta brakes must be close to
> the record (um... so to speak) for the greatest number of
> bits, the most complicated assembly.
>
> I tend to prefer simplicity to complexity.
>
> I suspect the Delta idea was to move the shoes quickly to
> toward the rim (i.e. with low mechanical advantage) and have
> the mechanical advantage be higher for stronger brake force
> once they contacted. But that increase in mechanical
> advantage would be very dependent on things like the initial
> adjustment, the wear of the brake pads, etc. Seems to me it
> would be unpredictable.
>
> David Gordon Wilson, in the first edition of _Bicycling
> Science_, had a proposal and prototype for a brake that
> performed that change in mechanical advantage; but instead
> of a continuous change, it was supposed to occur as a step
> change once the rim was contacted. He bemoaned the fact that
> no manufacturers were interested. I'd bet that the action
> was unpredictable, perhaps even dangerously so.
>

You're right about 'prior art'

https://i.ebayimg.com/thumbs/images/g/e6kAAOSwvA9eppaq/s-l225.jpg

http://www.blackbirdsf.org/brake_obscura/images/road/unk_uk.jpg

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Friday, February 4, 2022 at 9:21:48 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> On 2/4/2022 9:18 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Friday, February 4, 2022 at 6:11:31 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> >> On 2/3/2022 11:41 PM, John B. wrote:
> >>> On Thu, 3 Feb 2022 13:24:24 -0800 (PST), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> >>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On Thursday, February 3, 2022 at 11:24:05 AM UTC-6, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>>> On Wednesday, February 2, 2022 at 4:35:35 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>>>> On 2/2/2022 3:50 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Wednesday, February 2, 2022 at 12:21:24 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On 2/2/2022 12:37 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> But please stop hanging around on .tech and giving us the entirely incorrect advice from your long years of doing things wrong.
> >>>>>>>> :-) That's pretty funny! _Me_ doing things wrong?? :-)
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Tom, did you get your saddle to stay attached after it fell off?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Have you finally managed to get your handlebars to stop slipping down?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Have you figured out yet which model Garmin you bought, and how to get
> >>>>>>>> it to display what you want it to show?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> How's your derailleur adjustment these days? IIRC, last we heard it
> >>>>>>>> shifted fine on small cogs but not on large - or was that vice versa?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Do you still need more help ordering the right bottom bracket components?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Did you ever get the right wires and components for your Di2, or did you
> >>>>>>>> just give up?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> But hey, congratulations of finding something to hold you up when you
> >>>>>>>> nearly toppled while climbing a hill. Maybe your luck is finally
> >>>>>>>> starting to improve!
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Frank, I use new parts all the time. I'm well aware that you've already said that if you made a wrong choice you wouldn't advertise it ...
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I think your memory is faulty yet again, Tom. But it doesn't matter
> >>>>>> much. I tend to research what I buy fairly carefully, and I don't make
> >>>>>> one hundredth the mistakes you do.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> You are an incompetent idiot that Jobst made fun of ...
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Bullshit. Jobst and I corresponded quite pleasantly. And if he were here
> >>>>>> he'd be raking you over the coals as he always did, and it would be well
> >>>>>> justified.
> >>>>> \My memory isn't faulty, you think that anything newer than 1970 is worthless junk and you wouldn't admit ever using it even if it was the only thing available. You have continuously made that crystal clear to everyone here. So make any claims you like but it isn't fooling anyone.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Anything newer than 1970 is worthless junk? I would definitely disagree with that assertion. Assuming of course that Frank made such an assertion. Which he did not. Tommy made that up. The late Nuovo Record was introduced in 1967. And that was followed by Super Record in 1973. That was used by Campy up into the 1980s at least. Classic. Even if it didn't work all that well and was surpassed by superior Japanese components from Shimano and Suntour. But at least it was better than the French stuff. And then of course came the most beautiful Campagnolo or any bike components ever made on earth. Campagnolo C Record. Early mid 1980s. I see on eBay that this old Campagnolo stuff is selling for crazy prices. I love C Record for its looks, but don't know if I am that crazy to pay many thousands of dollars for it.
> >>>
> >>> I always thought that the Campi Delta brakes were the slickest things
> >>> ever. I did read that they were in fact a rather poor brake but who
> >>> cares, damn they were slick looking. And, of course expensive.
> >>>
> >>> Years and years later I came across a bloke at a "swap meet" who had a
> >>> whole bunch of Campagnolo stuff and right there at the front of his
> >>> table was a set of Delta brakes. Hot Damn! I'm going to, finally, get
> >>> a set of Delta Brakes and I bellied right up to the table and says,
> >>> "how much for them old brakes there?" The guy sort of smiled and
> >>> quoted a price and after my heart palpitations settled down he sort of
> >>> smiled some more and commented, "Some of this older Campi stuff is
> >>> sort of dear these days".
> >>>
> >>> Needless to say I never did get to have any Delta Brakes (:-(
> >>>
> >> They are of a distinct aesthetic but the leverage is all wrong.
> >
> > You could adjust them so that the leverage was pretty good. The brake shoe material they were using at the time wore fairly rapidly and this would reduce the leverage and the brakes rapidly faded away. Remember that even Mavic made a set of Delta brakes as well. And didn't I see some modern version of them recently?
> >
> Some of the many Delta foibles you may have forgotten over
> and beyond the leverage issue:
>
> https://www.bikehugger.com/posts/the-campagnolo-delta-brake/
Maybe that was the original one. The one I had wasn't Record but I think Chorus. The arms that in that picture show that they are at an X shape had the initial position of the arms much lower with the hinges horizontal. This gave measurably greater leverage. It didn't last long but when you first set it up the Delta brakes worked pretty good. I have a real problem with Campy and their brakes. They had the Campy 9 speed dual axle brakes. They were issued for a while on the 10 speed. Then they invented the Skeleton brakes and those things worked well enough but were no where as powerful with the previous brakes.

On Friday, February 4, 2022 at 2:12:48 PM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Friday, February 4, 2022 at 9:21:48 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> > On 2/4/2022 9:18 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > On Friday, February 4, 2022 at 6:11:31 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> > >> On 2/3/2022 11:41 PM, John B. wrote:
> > >>> On Thu, 3 Feb 2022 13:24:24 -0800 (PST), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> > >>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>> On Thursday, February 3, 2022 at 11:24:05 AM UTC-6, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >>>>> On Wednesday, February 2, 2022 at 4:35:35 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > >>>>>> On 2/2/2022 3:50 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > >>>>>>> On Wednesday, February 2, 2022 at 12:21:24 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > >>>>>>>> On 2/2/2022 12:37 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>> But please stop hanging around on .tech and giving us the entirely incorrect advice from your long years of doing things wrong.
> > >>>>>>>> :-) That's pretty funny! _Me_ doing things wrong?? :-)
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Tom, did you get your saddle to stay attached after it fell off?
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Have you finally managed to get your handlebars to stop slipping down?
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Have you figured out yet which model Garmin you bought, and how to get
> > >>>>>>>> it to display what you want it to show?
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> How's your derailleur adjustment these days? IIRC, last we heard it
> > >>>>>>>> shifted fine on small cogs but not on large - or was that vice versa?
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Do you still need more help ordering the right bottom bracket components?
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Did you ever get the right wires and components for your Di2, or did you
> > >>>>>>>> just give up?
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> But hey, congratulations of finding something to hold you up when you
> > >>>>>>>> nearly toppled while climbing a hill. Maybe your luck is finally
> > >>>>>>>> starting to improve!
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Frank, I use new parts all the time. I'm well aware that you've already said that if you made a wrong choice you wouldn't advertise it ...
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> I think your memory is faulty yet again, Tom. But it doesn't matter
> > >>>>>> much. I tend to research what I buy fairly carefully, and I don't make
> > >>>>>> one hundredth the mistakes you do.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> You are an incompetent idiot that Jobst made fun of ...
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Bullshit. Jobst and I corresponded quite pleasantly. And if he were here
> > >>>>>> he'd be raking you over the coals as he always did, and it would be well
> > >>>>>> justified.
> > >>>>> \My memory isn't faulty, you think that anything newer than 1970 is worthless junk and you wouldn't admit ever using it even if it was the only thing available. You have continuously made that crystal clear to everyone here. So make any claims you like but it isn't fooling anyone.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Anything newer than 1970 is worthless junk? I would definitely disagree with that assertion. Assuming of course that Frank made such an assertion. Which he did not. Tommy made that up. The late Nuovo Record was introduced in 1967. And that was followed by Super Record in 1973. That was used by Campy up into the 1980s at least. Classic. Even if it didn't work all that well and was surpassed by superior Japanese components from Shimano and Suntour. But at least it was better than the French stuff. And then of course came the most beautiful Campagnolo or any bike components ever made on earth. Campagnolo C Record. Early mid 1980s. I see on eBay that this old Campagnolo stuff is selling for crazy prices. I love C Record for its looks, but don't know if I am that crazy to pay many thousands of dollars for it.
> > >>>
> > >>> I always thought that the Campi Delta brakes were the slickest things
> > >>> ever. I did read that they were in fact a rather poor brake but who
> > >>> cares, damn they were slick looking. And, of course expensive.
> > >>>
> > >>> Years and years later I came across a bloke at a "swap meet" who had a
> > >>> whole bunch of Campagnolo stuff and right there at the front of his
> > >>> table was a set of Delta brakes. Hot Damn! I'm going to, finally, get
> > >>> a set of Delta Brakes and I bellied right up to the table and says,
> > >>> "how much for them old brakes there?" The guy sort of smiled and
> > >>> quoted a price and after my heart palpitations settled down he sort of
> > >>> smiled some more and commented, "Some of this older Campi stuff is
> > >>> sort of dear these days".
> > >>>
> > >>> Needless to say I never did get to have any Delta Brakes (:-(
> > >>>
> > >> They are of a distinct aesthetic but the leverage is all wrong.
> > >
> > > You could adjust them so that the leverage was pretty good. The brake shoe material they were using at the time wore fairly rapidly and this would reduce the leverage and the brakes rapidly faded away. Remember that even Mavic made a set of Delta brakes as well. And didn't I see some modern version of them recently?
> > >
> > Some of the many Delta foibles you may have forgotten over
> > and beyond the leverage issue:
> >
> > https://www.bikehugger.com/posts/the-campagnolo-delta-brake/
> Maybe that was the original one. The one I had wasn't Record but I think Chorus. The arms that in that picture show that they are at an X shape had the initial position of the arms much lower with the hinges horizontal. This gave measurably greater leverage. It didn't last long but when you first set it up the Delta brakes worked pretty good. I have a real problem with Campy and their brakes. They had the Campy 9 speed dual axle brakes. They were issued for a while on the 10 speed. Then they invented the Skeleton brakes and those things worked well enough but were no where as powerful with the previous brakes.

I think that it wasn't Chorus but Croce D'Aune? In any case while similar, that mechanism was different enough that the brakes worked pretty good for a short while.

On Friday, February 4, 2022 at 2:01:57 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> On 2/4/2022 3:20 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 2/4/2022 3:24 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
> >> On Friday, February 4, 2022 at 12:21:48 p.m. UTC-5, AMuzi
> >> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>> Some of the many Delta foibles you may have forgotten over
> >>> and beyond the leverage issue:
> >>>
> >>> https://www.bikehugger.com/posts/the-campagnolo-delta-brake/
> >>> --
> >>
> >> I have the old Dura Ace AX brake calipers on one of my
> >> bicycles and those calipers work really well. I remember
> >> the first time back in the mid-1980's when I hit the
> >> brakes hard in a panic stop and lifted the rear wheel
> >> quite a bit. I immediately released the front brake lever
> >> to maintain control.
> >>
> >> Iirc, the "modulation" of the Campagnolo Delta brake
> >> calipers was applied once it was discovered that those
> >> brakes didn't stop a bicycle very well. "Modulation"
> >> rather than true stopping power was said to be what the
> >> pros wanted.
> >>
> >> I didn't realize that the Delta brake calipers had such a
> >> complicated assembly. The Shimano AX brake calipers are
> >> quite simple in comparison.
> >
> > To me, it's interesting to browse _The Data Book_ and other
> > sources to look at all the historic variations in bike
> > brakes. It seems every conceivable mechanism has been tried
> > at one time or other. But the Delta brakes must be close to
> > the record (um... so to speak) for the greatest number of
> > bits, the most complicated assembly.
> >
> > I tend to prefer simplicity to complexity.
> >
> > I suspect the Delta idea was to move the shoes quickly to
> > toward the rim (i.e. with low mechanical advantage) and have
> > the mechanical advantage be higher for stronger brake force
> > once they contacted. But that increase in mechanical
> > advantage would be very dependent on things like the initial
> > adjustment, the wear of the brake pads, etc. Seems to me it
> > would be unpredictable.
> >
> > David Gordon Wilson, in the first edition of _Bicycling
> > Science_, had a proposal and prototype for a brake that
> > performed that change in mechanical advantage; but instead
> > of a continuous change, it was supposed to occur as a step
> > change once the rim was contacted. He bemoaned the fact that
> > no manufacturers were interested. I'd bet that the action
> > was unpredictable, perhaps even dangerously so.
> >
> You're right about 'prior art'
>
> https://i.ebayimg.com/thumbs/images/g/e6kAAOSwvA9eppaq/s-l225.jpg
>
> http://www.blackbirdsf.org/brake_obscura/images/road/unk_uk.jpg

I remember what it was - there was a 3 pivot and a 5 pivot design. One of them (probably the 5 pivot) worked fairly well but only when it was perfectly adjusted.

On 2/4/2022 4:20 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Friday, February 4, 2022 at 2:12:48 PM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> On Friday, February 4, 2022 at 9:21:48 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 2/4/2022 9:18 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>> On Friday, February 4, 2022 at 6:11:31 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>> On 2/3/2022 11:41 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>> On Thu, 3 Feb 2022 13:24:24 -0800 (PST), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>>>>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thursday, February 3, 2022 at 11:24:05 AM UTC-6, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, February 2, 2022 at 4:35:35 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 2/2/2022 3:50 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, February 2, 2022 at 12:21:24 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/2/2022 12:37 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> But please stop hanging around on .tech and giving us the entirely incorrect advice from your long years of doing things wrong.
>>>>>>>>>>> :-) That's pretty funny! _Me_ doing things wrong?? :-)
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Tom, did you get your saddle to stay attached after it fell off?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Have you finally managed to get your handlebars to stop slipping down?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Have you figured out yet which model Garmin you bought, and how to get
>>>>>>>>>>> it to display what you want it to show?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> How's your derailleur adjustment these days? IIRC, last we heard it
>>>>>>>>>>> shifted fine on small cogs but not on large - or was that vice versa?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Do you still need more help ordering the right bottom bracket components?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Did you ever get the right wires and components for your Di2, or did you
>>>>>>>>>>> just give up?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> But hey, congratulations of finding something to hold you up when you
>>>>>>>>>>> nearly toppled while climbing a hill. Maybe your luck is finally
>>>>>>>>>>> starting to improve!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Frank, I use new parts all the time. I'm well aware that you've already said that if you made a wrong choice you wouldn't advertise it ...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I think your memory is faulty yet again, Tom. But it doesn't matter
>>>>>>>>> much. I tend to research what I buy fairly carefully, and I don't make
>>>>>>>>> one hundredth the mistakes you do.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> You are an incompetent idiot that Jobst made fun of ...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Bullshit. Jobst and I corresponded quite pleasantly. And if he were here
>>>>>>>>> he'd be raking you over the coals as he always did, and it would be well
>>>>>>>>> justified.
>>>>>>>> \My memory isn't faulty, you think that anything newer than 1970 is worthless junk and you wouldn't admit ever using it even if it was the only thing available. You have continuously made that crystal clear to everyone here. So make any claims you like but it isn't fooling anyone.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Anything newer than 1970 is worthless junk? I would definitely disagree with that assertion. Assuming of course that Frank made such an assertion. Which he did not. Tommy made that up. The late Nuovo Record was introduced in 1967. And that was followed by Super Record in 1973. That was used by Campy up into the 1980s at least. Classic. Even if it didn't work all that well and was surpassed by superior Japanese components from Shimano and Suntour. But at least it was better than the French stuff. And then of course came the most beautiful Campagnolo or any bike components ever made on earth. Campagnolo C Record. Early mid 1980s. I see on eBay that this old Campagnolo stuff is selling for crazy prices. I love C Record for its looks, but don't know if I am that crazy to pay many thousands of dollars for it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I always thought that the Campi Delta brakes were the slickest things
>>>>>> ever. I did read that they were in fact a rather poor brake but who
>>>>>> cares, damn they were slick looking. And, of course expensive.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Years and years later I came across a bloke at a "swap meet" who had a
>>>>>> whole bunch of Campagnolo stuff and right there at the front of his
>>>>>> table was a set of Delta brakes. Hot Damn! I'm going to, finally, get
>>>>>> a set of Delta Brakes and I bellied right up to the table and says,
>>>>>> "how much for them old brakes there?" The guy sort of smiled and
>>>>>> quoted a price and after my heart palpitations settled down he sort of
>>>>>> smiled some more and commented, "Some of this older Campi stuff is
>>>>>> sort of dear these days".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Needless to say I never did get to have any Delta Brakes (:-(
>>>>>>
>>>>> They are of a distinct aesthetic but the leverage is all wrong.
>>>>
>>>> You could adjust them so that the leverage was pretty good. The brake shoe material they were using at the time wore fairly rapidly and this would reduce the leverage and the brakes rapidly faded away. Remember that even Mavic made a set of Delta brakes as well. And didn't I see some modern version of them recently?
>>>>
>>> Some of the many Delta foibles you may have forgotten over
>>> and beyond the leverage issue:
>>>
>>> https://www.bikehugger.com/posts/the-campagnolo-delta-brake/
>> Maybe that was the original one. The one I had wasn't Record but I think Chorus. The arms that in that picture show that they are at an X shape had the initial position of the arms much lower with the hinges horizontal. This gave measurably greater leverage. It didn't last long but when you first set it up the Delta brakes worked pretty good. I have a real problem with Campy and their brakes. They had the Campy 9 speed dual axle brakes. They were issued for a while on the 10 speed. Then they invented the Skeleton brakes and those things worked well enough but were no where as powerful with the previous brakes.
>
> I think that it wasn't Chorus but Croce D'Aune? In any case while similar, that mechanism was different enough that the brakes worked pretty good for a short while.
>

Yes that's right. Chorus was Monoplaner.

https://velobase.com/ViewComponent.aspx?ID=0AF07CE2-08B8-4715-B2AD-C55ED967D651

https://velobase.com/ViewComponent.aspx?ID=486B7D92-B4DF-4FD4-949C-1A365D8837CC

https://velobase.com/ViewComponent.aspx?ID=291973b8-0a22-4de4-bdd9-00af039bf476

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Fri, 4 Feb 2022 12:55:32 -0800 (PST), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
<ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Friday, February 4, 2022 at 12:48:43 AM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>> On Thu, 03 Feb 2022 17:45:23 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
>> wrote:
>> >On Thu, 3 Feb 2022 14:18:49 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
>> ><cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >>Why are you making fun of French spelling? And don't you know what the English translation of lanterne is? Or perhaps you don't know that Rouge is also English for Red? https://www.color-hex.com/color-palette/18688
>> >
>> >"List of English words of French origin"
>> ><https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_words_of_French_origin>
>> >"... 45% of all English words have a French origin."
>> Largely, I would suggest, because there was a period in English
>> History when the "Gentry" spoke French (:-)
>> --
>> Cheers,
>>
>> John B.
>
>But didn't France and England mix up kings and queens a few times too? The married, widowed, sister king or queen of one became the other's king or queen or maid servant or mistress. Or the cousin or sister of one married the other's aunt and the offspring became queens and kings. I know there is some historical connection between all the royal families of those two countries.

Well, there was some miscegenation (:-) but the change from
"Angle-Saxon" was largely due to the Norman (French) William defeating
the English King Harold Godwinson and of course placed all these who
supported him in positions of authority. Thus the "nobility" spoke
French while the commoners spoke "English"
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Fri, 04 Feb 2022 15:53:07 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 2/4/2022 2:55 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
>> On Friday, February 4, 2022 at 12:48:43 AM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>>> On Thu, 03 Feb 2022 17:45:23 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 3 Feb 2022 14:18:49 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
>>>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Why are you making fun of French spelling? And don't you know what the English translation of lanterne is? Or perhaps you don't know that Rouge is also English for Red? https://www.color-hex.com/color-palette/18688
>>>>
>>>> "List of English words of French origin"
>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_words_of_French_origin>
>>>> "... 45% of all English words have a French origin."
>>> Largely, I would suggest, because there was a period in English
>>> History when the "Gentry" spoke French (:-)
>>> --
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> John B.
>>
>> But didn't France and England mix up kings and queens a few times too? The married, widowed, sister king or queen of one became the other's king or queen or maid servant or mistress. Or the cousin or sister of one married the other's aunt and the offspring became queens and kings. I know there is some historical connection between all the royal families of those two countries.
>>
>
>Right you are.
>
>The Habsburg, Hohenzollern, Bourbon, Saxe Goteburg, Romanov
>and others have family trees which look like a micrograph of
>felt fibers. When one cannot generally marry a commoner
>that's just what happens.

And to a great extent, why would one want to marry a commoner when
marrying an "equal" might give one more fame and fortune.
--
Cheers,

John B.

John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 04 Feb 2022 15:53:07 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>> On 2/4/2022 2:55 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
>>> On Friday, February 4, 2022 at 12:48:43 AM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 03 Feb 2022 17:45:23 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 3 Feb 2022 14:18:49 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
>>>>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Why are you making fun of French spelling? And don't you know what
>>>>>> the English translation of lanterne is? Or perhaps you don't know
>>>>>> that Rouge is also English for Red? https://www.color-hex.com/color-palette/18688
>>>>>
>>>>> "List of English words of French origin"
>>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_words_of_French_origin>
>>>>> "... 45% of all English words have a French origin."
>>>> Largely, I would suggest, because there was a period in English
>>>> History when the "Gentry" spoke French (:-)
>>>> --
>>>> Cheers,
>>>>
>>>> John B.
>>>
>>> But didn't France and England mix up kings and queens a few times too?
>>> The married, widowed, sister king or queen of one became the other's
>>> king or queen or maid servant or mistress. Or the cousin or sister of
>>> one married the other's aunt and the offspring became queens and kings.
>>> I know there is some historical connection between all the royal
>>> families of those two countries.
>>>
>>
>> Right you are.
>>
>> The Habsburg, Hohenzollern, Bourbon, Saxe Goteburg, Romanov
>> and others have family trees which look like a micrograph of
>> felt fibers. When one cannot generally marry a commoner
>> that's just what happens.
>
> And to a great extent, why would one want to marry a commoner when
> marrying an "equal" might give one more fame and fortune.

And to steer this torturous thread drift back to bicycles, at least one
person believes that the invention of the bicycle did more to reduce
inbreeding than anything else in human history.

https://www.edge.org/conversation/steve_jones-steve-jones-on-extinction

On Sat, 5 Feb 2022 05:41:26 -0000 (UTC), Ralph Barone
<ralph@invalid.com> wrote:

>John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, 04 Feb 2022 15:53:07 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2/4/2022 2:55 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>> On Friday, February 4, 2022 at 12:48:43 AM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 03 Feb 2022 17:45:23 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> On Thu, 3 Feb 2022 14:18:49 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
>>>>>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Why are you making fun of French spelling? And don't you know what
>>>>>>> the English translation of lanterne is? Or perhaps you don't know
>>>>>>> that Rouge is also English for Red? https://www.color-hex.com/color-palette/18688
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "List of English words of French origin"
>>>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_words_of_French_origin>
>>>>>> "... 45% of all English words have a French origin."
>>>>> Largely, I would suggest, because there was a period in English
>>>>> History when the "Gentry" spoke French (:-)
>>>>> --
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>
>>>>> John B.
>>>>
>>>> But didn't France and England mix up kings and queens a few times too?
>>>> The married, widowed, sister king or queen of one became the other's
>>>> king or queen or maid servant or mistress. Or the cousin or sister of
>>>> one married the other's aunt and the offspring became queens and kings.
>>>> I know there is some historical connection between all the royal
>>>> families of those two countries.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Right you are.
>>>
>>> The Habsburg, Hohenzollern, Bourbon, Saxe Goteburg, Romanov
>>> and others have family trees which look like a micrograph of
>>> felt fibers. When one cannot generally marry a commoner
>>> that's just what happens.
>>
>> And to a great extent, why would one want to marry a commoner when
>> marrying an "equal" might give one more fame and fortune.
>
>And to steer this torturous thread drift back to bicycles, at least one
>person believes that the invention of the bicycle did more to reduce
>inbreeding than anything else in human history.
>
>https://www.edge.org/conversation/steve_jones-steve-jones-on-extinction

(:-) Well, I'm not sure if it was the bicycle, per se, but certainly
it was improvements in transportation. The writer talks about coming
from a small Welsh village where almost everyone married a neighbor,
so to speak, but who, in the village, ever traveled more then a day's
walk from the village?
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Saturday, February 5, 2022 at 12:41:34 AM UTC-5, Ralph Barone wrote:

> And to steer this torturous thread drift back to bicycles, at least one
> person believes that the invention of the bicycle did more to reduce
> inbreeding than anything else in human history.
>
> https://www.edge.org/conversation/steve_jones-steve-jones-on-extinction

Nice link!

On 2/4/2022 11:41 PM, Ralph Barone wrote:
> John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, 04 Feb 2022 15:53:07 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2/4/2022 2:55 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>> On Friday, February 4, 2022 at 12:48:43 AM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 03 Feb 2022 17:45:23 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> On Thu, 3 Feb 2022 14:18:49 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
>>>>>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Why are you making fun of French spelling? And don't you know what
>>>>>>> the English translation of lanterne is? Or perhaps you don't know
>>>>>>> that Rouge is also English for Red? https://www.color-hex.com/color-palette/18688
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "List of English words of French origin"
>>>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_words_of_French_origin>
>>>>>> "... 45% of all English words have a French origin."
>>>>> Largely, I would suggest, because there was a period in English
>>>>> History when the "Gentry" spoke French (:-)
>>>>> --
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>
>>>>> John B.
>>>>
>>>> But didn't France and England mix up kings and queens a few times too?
>>>> The married, widowed, sister king or queen of one became the other's
>>>> king or queen or maid servant or mistress. Or the cousin or sister of
>>>> one married the other's aunt and the offspring became queens and kings.
>>>> I know there is some historical connection between all the royal
>>>> families of those two countries.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Right you are.
>>>
>>> The Habsburg, Hohenzollern, Bourbon, Saxe Goteburg, Romanov
>>> and others have family trees which look like a micrograph of
>>> felt fibers. When one cannot generally marry a commoner
>>> that's just what happens.
>>
>> And to a great extent, why would one want to marry a commoner when
>> marrying an "equal" might give one more fame and fortune.
>
> And to steer this torturous thread drift back to bicycles, at least one
> person believes that the invention of the bicycle did more to reduce
> inbreeding than anything else in human history.
>
> https://www.edge.org/conversation/steve_jones-steve-jones-on-extinction
>

Thank you that's interesting.

Speaking of royalty and bicycles, the last queen of Hiva
Hiva Oa willed that she be buried with her beloved bicycle
and they were.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 2/5/2022 8:12 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, February 5, 2022 at 12:41:34 AM UTC-5, Ralph Barone wrote:
>
>> And to steer this torturous thread drift back to bicycles, at least one
>> person believes that the invention of the bicycle did more to reduce
>> inbreeding than anything else in human history.
>>
>> https://www.edge.org/conversation/steve_jones-steve-jones-on-extinction
>
> Nice link!

It was. Articles like that are one reason I don't complain about topics
of conversation changing, either online or in real life.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Sat, 05 Feb 2022 08:15:33 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 2/4/2022 11:41 PM, Ralph Barone wrote:
>> John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Fri, 04 Feb 2022 15:53:07 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2/4/2022 2:55 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>> On Friday, February 4, 2022 at 12:48:43 AM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>>>>>> On Thu, 03 Feb 2022 17:45:23 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Thu, 3 Feb 2022 14:18:49 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
>>>>>>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Why are you making fun of French spelling? And don't you know what
>>>>>>>> the English translation of lanterne is? Or perhaps you don't know
>>>>>>>> that Rouge is also English for Red? https://www.color-hex.com/color-palette/18688
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "List of English words of French origin"
>>>>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_words_of_French_origin>
>>>>>>> "... 45% of all English words have a French origin."
>>>>>> Largely, I would suggest, because there was a period in English
>>>>>> History when the "Gentry" spoke French (:-)
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> John B.
>>>>>
>>>>> But didn't France and England mix up kings and queens a few times too?
>>>>> The married, widowed, sister king or queen of one became the other's
>>>>> king or queen or maid servant or mistress. Or the cousin or sister of
>>>>> one married the other's aunt and the offspring became queens and kings.
>>>>> I know there is some historical connection between all the royal
>>>>> families of those two countries.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Right you are.
>>>>
>>>> The Habsburg, Hohenzollern, Bourbon, Saxe Goteburg, Romanov
>>>> and others have family trees which look like a micrograph of
>>>> felt fibers. When one cannot generally marry a commoner
>>>> that's just what happens.
>>>
>>> And to a great extent, why would one want to marry a commoner when
>>> marrying an "equal" might give one more fame and fortune.
>>
>> And to steer this torturous thread drift back to bicycles, at least one
>> person believes that the invention of the bicycle did more to reduce
>> inbreeding than anything else in human history.
>>
>> https://www.edge.org/conversation/steve_jones-steve-jones-on-extinction
>>
>
>Thank you that's interesting.
>
>Speaking of royalty and bicycles, the last queen of Hiva
>Hiva Oa willed that she be buried with her beloved bicycle
>and they were.

If that is Vaekehu Queen of Nuka Hiva, she also claimed to have eaten
her first husband (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 2/5/2022 7:03 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Sat, 05 Feb 2022 08:15:33 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>> On 2/4/2022 11:41 PM, Ralph Barone wrote:
>>> John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 04 Feb 2022 15:53:07 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 2/4/2022 2:55 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>>> On Friday, February 4, 2022 at 12:48:43 AM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>> On Thu, 03 Feb 2022 17:45:23 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Thu, 3 Feb 2022 14:18:49 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
>>>>>>>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Why are you making fun of French spelling? And don't you know what
>>>>>>>>> the English translation of lanterne is? Or perhaps you don't know
>>>>>>>>> that Rouge is also English for Red? https://www.color-hex.com/color-palette/18688
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "List of English words of French origin"
>>>>>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_words_of_French_origin>
>>>>>>>> "... 45% of all English words have a French origin."
>>>>>>> Largely, I would suggest, because there was a period in English
>>>>>>> History when the "Gentry" spoke French (:-)
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> John B.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But didn't France and England mix up kings and queens a few times too?
>>>>>> The married, widowed, sister king or queen of one became the other's
>>>>>> king or queen or maid servant or mistress. Or the cousin or sister of
>>>>>> one married the other's aunt and the offspring became queens and kings.
>>>>>> I know there is some historical connection between all the royal
>>>>>> families of those two countries.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Right you are.
>>>>>
>>>>> The Habsburg, Hohenzollern, Bourbon, Saxe Goteburg, Romanov
>>>>> and others have family trees which look like a micrograph of
>>>>> felt fibers. When one cannot generally marry a commoner
>>>>> that's just what happens.
>>>>
>>>> And to a great extent, why would one want to marry a commoner when
>>>> marrying an "equal" might give one more fame and fortune.
>>>
>>> And to steer this torturous thread drift back to bicycles, at least one
>>> person believes that the invention of the bicycle did more to reduce
>>> inbreeding than anything else in human history.
>>>
>>> https://www.edge.org/conversation/steve_jones-steve-jones-on-extinction
>>>
>>
>> Thank you that's interesting.
>>
>> Speaking of royalty and bicycles, the last queen of Hiva
>> Hiva Oa willed that she be buried with her beloved bicycle
>> and they were.
>
> If that is Vaekehu Queen of Nuka Hiva, she also claimed to have eaten
> her first husband (:-)
>

Don't recall her name but everyone has good habits and bad.
Not sure which is which here (the island is poorer by one
bicycle vs maybe the guy had it coming?)

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Sunday, February 6, 2022 at 8:21:51 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> On 2/5/2022 7:03 PM, John B. wrote:
> > On Sat, 05 Feb 2022 08:15:33 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >
> >> On 2/4/2022 11:41 PM, Ralph Barone wrote:
> >>> John B. <sloc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>> On Fri, 04 Feb 2022 15:53:07 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> On 2/4/2022 2:55 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >>>>>> On Friday, February 4, 2022 at 12:48:43 AM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Thu, 03 Feb 2022 17:45:23 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio..com>
> >>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On Thu, 3 Feb 2022 14:18:49 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
> >>>>>>>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Why are you making fun of French spelling? And don't you know what
> >>>>>>>>> the English translation of lanterne is? Or perhaps you don't know
> >>>>>>>>> that Rouge is also English for Red? https://www.color-hex.com/color-palette/18688
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> "List of English words of French origin"
> >>>>>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_words_of_French_origin>
> >>>>>>>> "... 45% of all English words have a French origin."
> >>>>>>> Largely, I would suggest, because there was a period in English
> >>>>>>> History when the "Gentry" spoke French (:-)
> >>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>> Cheers,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> John B.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> But didn't France and England mix up kings and queens a few times too?
> >>>>>> The married, widowed, sister king or queen of one became the other's
> >>>>>> king or queen or maid servant or mistress. Or the cousin or sister of
> >>>>>> one married the other's aunt and the offspring became queens and kings.
> >>>>>> I know there is some historical connection between all the royal
> >>>>>> families of those two countries.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Right you are.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The Habsburg, Hohenzollern, Bourbon, Saxe Goteburg, Romanov
> >>>>> and others have family trees which look like a micrograph of
> >>>>> felt fibers. When one cannot generally marry a commoner
> >>>>> that's just what happens.
> >>>>
> >>>> And to a great extent, why would one want to marry a commoner when
> >>>> marrying an "equal" might give one more fame and fortune.
> >>>
> >>> And to steer this torturous thread drift back to bicycles, at least one
> >>> person believes that the invention of the bicycle did more to reduce
> >>> inbreeding than anything else in human history.
> >>>
> >>> https://www.edge.org/conversation/steve_jones-steve-jones-on-extinction
> >>>
> >>
> >> Thank you that's interesting.
> >>
> >> Speaking of royalty and bicycles, the last queen of Hiva
> >> Hiva Oa willed that she be buried with her beloved bicycle
> >> and they were.
> >
> > If that is Vaekehu Queen of Nuka Hiva, she also claimed to have eaten
> > her first husband (:-)
> >
> Don't recall her name but everyone has good habits and bad.
> Not sure which is which here (the island is poorer by one
> bicycle vs maybe the guy had it coming?)

Odd thing happened today, Since the ears tore off of the 810, I ordered a new rear case and decided to use the 800. About 10 miles into the ride, the speed went to zero. I assumed that the magnet had slipped since I put on a better set of wheels. I stopped and looked and the magnet was fine. I continued riding and the speed remained at zero. Now, the speed is supposed to come off of the sensor and the sensor was matched to the 800. So I continued riding and about 4 miles later it all turned back on with speed and distance again working.

Could the problem be that it had lost the GPS lock?

I will have a new 830 on Tuesday and it has a much more powerful uC which will maintain multiple GPS locks through almost anything. The 810 gets a lock quite a bit faster than the 800.