On Sunday, February 6, 2022 at 1:32:26 AM UTC+1, kenneth...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, February 5, 2022 at 1:56:14 PM UTC-8, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Saturday, February 5, 2022 at 10:23:34 PM UTC+1, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Sat, 5 Feb 2022 08:37:33 -0800 (PST), Lou Holtman
> > > <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > >Unbelievable. Never expected that a QR is a puzzle to so many people.. Now I understand lawyer lips for those people. Never believed such people exist. My bad.
> > > >Lou
> > > They exist. However, I don't believe that the problem is hereditary.
> > > Two stories:
> > >
> > > 1. About 30 years ago, I was introduced to a prospective computer
> > > repair customer who had setup several computers in his house and was
> > > doing custom programming for small companies. I was impressed by his
> > > programming abilities. However, he had a problem. He had no
> > > mechanical abilities, no dexterity, and no ability to assemble or
> > > disassemble his computers. I watched as he fumbled with a screwdriver
> > > trying to open a case. My attempts to show him how to use various
> > > hand tools were futile.
> > >
> > > Of course, I asked how this happened. He explained that his father
> > > had been an automobile mechanic and didn't want his son to also be an
> > > automobile mechanic. Every time the son would try to use a tool, the
> > > father would take the tool away from him. He said that this was the
> > > situation up to when he left home at about age 18.
> > >
> > > The results were not pretty. He literally could not use tools, had no
> > > mechanical aptitude, and most important, was less able to learn these
> > > skills as he grew older. So, I became his mechanic, in trade for him
> > > teaching me to program and letting me use his computer farm.
> > >
> > > 2. I attended college in the late 1960's. At the time, engineers
> > > were required to take a variety of mechanical classes that included
> > > hands on experience with the machinery. At the time, the US was on
> > > good terms with the Shah of Iran. A fairly large percentage of the
> > > engineering schools had foreign exchange students from Iran. Most of
> > > them were the sons of the wealthy and powerful in Iran. Some even
> > > arranged to be accompanied by a servant. It was considered
> > > inappropriate for the upper classes to get their hands dirty, which
> > > was the job of the servant. This created some major problems in the
> > > mechanical classes, where they were actually expected to use the
> > > equipment and tools. To suggest that they constituted a safety hazard
> > > to themselves and others would be an understatement.
> > >
> > > Of course, we all attempted to help them learn how to operate the
> > > machinery. That's when we realized that the complicated tool they had
> > > ever operated was a pencil sharpener. Skipping the hand tools and
> > > trying to teach them to use a bench grinder, much less a mill or a
> > > lathe, was an exercise in frustration.
> > >
> > > It was the same problem as the son of the auto mechanic. If one
> > > doesn't learn to use basic tools and machinery at an early age, trying
> > > to do so at a later age is difficult or impossible. That might
> > > explain why operating a quick release is a challenge for some,
> > > possibly because they lack prior experience working with machinery.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
> > > PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
> > > Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
> > > Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
> > I don’t expect people to know how a bolt works, but I could explain to my neighbor how to operate a QR when she got her first ‘sporty’ bike and have to be able to fix a flat. She never saw a Home Depot from the inside. It took me 15 sec.
> >
> > Lou
> Kenneth Litwak <kenneth...@gmail.com>
>
> 4:20 PM (1 minute ago)
>
> to rec.bicycles.tech
> I might have missed something in this thread, but I have never had a problem using a quick release. However, there has never been the fan of an indoor trainer that as less than 1": away from the quick release lever in my way.. That is the problem, not my lack of understanding of quick release levers. I can't count how many flats I've fixed, but I've never had a quick release problem. In this case, the dropouts on the seat/chain tubes keep coming off the skewer. I simply can't get it tight enough. That has never been a problem. I'm about to head to a bike store to buy a new skewer and get help removing the bent skewer from the trainer. Then, I will follow the recommendation to put the skewer in with the quick release on the derailleur side and hope it won't interfere with the derailleur. I've been around the block several times, and tired for about two years to ro do road racing. I have never seen a dBTW, I have used tools most of my life, whether a flat-bladed screw driver or drill press (in eighth grade). I do have problems with some bike maintenance issues because every demo I have ever watched was too far away for me to see the details of what needed to happen. I was born with a significant visual impairment.
>
> Nevertheless, I can operate a quick release lever. If you have to take a wheel off, it's makes it fairly obvious what to do.

I looked at the trainer you mentioned (Lemond revolution):
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=x--8OjE9tm0
I see no issues with a QR on either side. If so it never occured to you that you can flip the QR? Ah well.

Lou

On 2/5/2022 6:32 PM, Kenneth Litwak wrote:
> On Saturday, February 5, 2022 at 1:56:14 PM UTC-8, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Saturday, February 5, 2022 at 10:23:34 PM UTC+1, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Sat, 5 Feb 2022 08:37:33 -0800 (PST), Lou Holtman
>>> <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Unbelievable. Never expected that a QR is a puzzle to so many people. Now I understand lawyer lips for those people. Never believed such people exist. My bad.
>>>> Lou
>>> They exist. However, I don't believe that the problem is hereditary.
>>> Two stories:
>>>
>>> 1. About 30 years ago, I was introduced to a prospective computer
>>> repair customer who had setup several computers in his house and was
>>> doing custom programming for small companies. I was impressed by his
>>> programming abilities. However, he had a problem. He had no
>>> mechanical abilities, no dexterity, and no ability to assemble or
>>> disassemble his computers. I watched as he fumbled with a screwdriver
>>> trying to open a case. My attempts to show him how to use various
>>> hand tools were futile.
>>>
>>> Of course, I asked how this happened. He explained that his father
>>> had been an automobile mechanic and didn't want his son to also be an
>>> automobile mechanic. Every time the son would try to use a tool, the
>>> father would take the tool away from him. He said that this was the
>>> situation up to when he left home at about age 18.
>>>
>>> The results were not pretty. He literally could not use tools, had no
>>> mechanical aptitude, and most important, was less able to learn these
>>> skills as he grew older. So, I became his mechanic, in trade for him
>>> teaching me to program and letting me use his computer farm.
>>>
>>> 2. I attended college in the late 1960's. At the time, engineers
>>> were required to take a variety of mechanical classes that included
>>> hands on experience with the machinery. At the time, the US was on
>>> good terms with the Shah of Iran. A fairly large percentage of the
>>> engineering schools had foreign exchange students from Iran. Most of
>>> them were the sons of the wealthy and powerful in Iran. Some even
>>> arranged to be accompanied by a servant. It was considered
>>> inappropriate for the upper classes to get their hands dirty, which
>>> was the job of the servant. This created some major problems in the
>>> mechanical classes, where they were actually expected to use the
>>> equipment and tools. To suggest that they constituted a safety hazard
>>> to themselves and others would be an understatement.
>>>
>>> Of course, we all attempted to help them learn how to operate the
>>> machinery. That's when we realized that the complicated tool they had
>>> ever operated was a pencil sharpener. Skipping the hand tools and
>>> trying to teach them to use a bench grinder, much less a mill or a
>>> lathe, was an exercise in frustration.
>>>
>>> It was the same problem as the son of the auto mechanic. If one
>>> doesn't learn to use basic tools and machinery at an early age, trying
>>> to do so at a later age is difficult or impossible. That might
>>> explain why operating a quick release is a challenge for some,
>>> possibly because they lack prior experience working with machinery.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
>>> PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
>>> Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
>>> Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
>> I don’t expect people to know how a bolt works, but I could explain to my neighbor how to operate a QR when she got her first ‘sporty’ bike and have to be able to fix a flat. She never saw a Home Depot from the inside. It took me 15 sec.
>>
>> Lou
> Kenneth Litwak <kennethdlitwak@gmail.com>
>
> 4:20 PM (1 minute ago)
>
> to rec.bicycles.tech
> I might have missed something in this thread, but I have never had a problem using a quick release. However, there has never been the fan of an indoor trainer that as less than 1": away from the quick release lever in my way.. That is the problem, not my lack of understanding of quick release levers. I can't count how many flats I've fixed, but I've never had a quick release problem. In this case, the dropouts on the seat/chain tubes keep coming off the skewer. I simply can't get it tight enough. That has never been a problem. I'm about to head to a bike store to buy a new skewer and get help removing the bent skewer from the trainer. Then, I will follow the recommendation to put the skewer in with the quick release on the derailleur side and hope it won't interfere with the derailleur. I've been around the block several times, and tired for about two years to ro do road racing. I have never seen a dBTW, I have used tools most of my life, whether a flat-bladed screw driver or dr
ill press (in eighth grade). I do have problems with some bike maintenance issues because every demo I have ever watched was too far away for me to see the details of what needed to happen. I was born with a significant visual impairment.
>
> Nevertheless, I can operate a quick release lever. If you have to take a wheel off, it's makes it fairly obvious what to do.
>

Mr Krygowski suggested linking to photos and I agree that
would be helpful here. With some experience in the area,
particularly with Minoura trainers, I don't understand why
you're having difficulty.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 2/5/2022 7:13 PM, Tim R wrote:
> On Saturday, February 5, 2022 at 7:32:26 PM UTC-5, kenneth...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Saturday, February 5, 2022 at 1:56:14 PM UTC-8, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Saturday, February 5, 2022 at 10:23:34 PM UTC+1, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 5 Feb 2022 08:37:33 -0800 (PST), Lou Holtman
>>>> <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Unbelievable. Never expected that a QR is a puzzle to so many people. Now I understand lawyer lips for those people. Never believed such people exist. My bad.
>>>>> Lou
>>>> They exist. However, I don't believe that the problem is hereditary.
>>>> Two stories:
>>>>
>>>> 1. About 30 years ago, I was introduced to a prospective computer
>>>> repair customer who had setup several computers in his house and was
>>>> doing custom programming for small companies. I was impressed by his
>>>> programming abilities. However, he had a problem. He had no
>>>> mechanical abilities, no dexterity, and no ability to assemble or
>>>> disassemble his computers. I watched as he fumbled with a screwdriver
>>>> trying to open a case. My attempts to show him how to use various
>>>> hand tools were futile.
>>>>
>>>> Of course, I asked how this happened. He explained that his father
>>>> had been an automobile mechanic and didn't want his son to also be an
>>>> automobile mechanic. Every time the son would try to use a tool, the
>>>> father would take the tool away from him. He said that this was the
>>>> situation up to when he left home at about age 18.
>>>>
>>>> The results were not pretty. He literally could not use tools, had no
>>>> mechanical aptitude, and most important, was less able to learn these
>>>> skills as he grew older. So, I became his mechanic, in trade for him
>>>> teaching me to program and letting me use his computer farm.
>>>>
>>>> 2. I attended college in the late 1960's. At the time, engineers
>>>> were required to take a variety of mechanical classes that included
>>>> hands on experience with the machinery. At the time, the US was on
>>>> good terms with the Shah of Iran. A fairly large percentage of the
>>>> engineering schools had foreign exchange students from Iran. Most of
>>>> them were the sons of the wealthy and powerful in Iran. Some even
>>>> arranged to be accompanied by a servant. It was considered
>>>> inappropriate for the upper classes to get their hands dirty, which
>>>> was the job of the servant. This created some major problems in the
>>>> mechanical classes, where they were actually expected to use the
>>>> equipment and tools. To suggest that they constituted a safety hazard
>>>> to themselves and others would be an understatement.
>>>>
>>>> Of course, we all attempted to help them learn how to operate the
>>>> machinery. That's when we realized that the complicated tool they had
>>>> ever operated was a pencil sharpener. Skipping the hand tools and
>>>> trying to teach them to use a bench grinder, much less a mill or a
>>>> lathe, was an exercise in frustration.
>>>>
>>>> It was the same problem as the son of the auto mechanic. If one
>>>> doesn't learn to use basic tools and machinery at an early age, trying
>>>> to do so at a later age is difficult or impossible. That might
>>>> explain why operating a quick release is a challenge for some,
>>>> possibly because they lack prior experience working with machinery.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
>>>> PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
>>>> Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
>>>> Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
>>> I don’t expect people to know how a bolt works, but I could explain to my neighbor how to operate a QR when she got her first ‘sporty’ bike and have to be able to fix a flat. She never saw a Home Depot from the inside. It took me 15 sec.
>>>
>>> Lou
>> Kenneth Litwak <kenneth...@gmail.com>
>>
>> 4:20 PM (1 minute ago)
>>
>> to rec.bicycles.tech
>> I might have missed something in this thread, but I have never had a problem using a quick release. However, there has never been the fan of an indoor trainer that as less than 1": away from the quick release lever in my way.. That is the problem, not my lack of understanding of quick release levers. I can't count how many flats I've fixed, but I've never had a quick release problem. In this case, the dropouts on the seat/chain tubes keep coming off the skewer. I simply can't get it tight enough. That has never been a problem. I'm about to head to a bike store to buy a new skewer and get help removing the bent skewer from the trainer. Then, I will follow the recommendation to put the skewer in with the quick release on the derailleur side and hope it won't interfere with the derailleur. I've been around the block several times, and tired for about two years to ro do road racing. I have never seen a dBTW, I have used tools most of my life, whether a flat-bladed screw driver or dri
ll press (in eighth grade). I do have problems with some bike maintenance issues because every demo I have ever watched was too far away for me to see the details of what needed to happen. I was born with a significant visual impairment.
>>
>> Nevertheless, I can operate a quick release lever. If you have to take a wheel off, it's makes it fairly obvious what to do.
>
> I also had a question about the quick release on my indoor trainer. I'm not a bike mechanic but I've done a reasonable amount of household and auto maintenance, and I've had no issue getting a quick release off and changing a bike tire. I didn't really know how they worked until I read that article someone shared above. But that article makes it clear they should be cammed into place, not screwed, and when I looked at the bike on my trainer it was clear I had not done that. I remember having trouble getting it to fit, but not the details of why.
>
> I think I see why the trainer mfg supplied a replacement skewer. The trainer assembly has a sort of a socket the skewer has to fit inside, and probably some quick releases wouldn't fit. For some reason I couldn't get theirs to cam shut, but I've ridden that trainer off and on for probably 10 years and heavily for the last year or two. So the question is am I damaging bearings or something? Will it slip off at some point, and since I'm pedaling at speed I'll be propelled across the room into the tv?
>
> Off topic, but in the 70s I also went to grad school with some students from Iran (they called it Persia). We were not allowed to record any lectures if those students were present because of concerns with secret police. I made the mistake of riding with one once, and she scared the crap out of me, totally different approach to getting from point A to B, and it didn't involve any legalities.
>

No significant nexus to hub bearings and no if anything goes
awry (highly unlikely) the only moving things are rim/tire
with low mass, greatly outweighed by you and your bicycle.
More dramatically on rollers this question is asked often.
In reality one of the basic skills one learns riding rollers
is to hop off and ride across the room. It takes a serious
effort of muscle to start a bike moving from a dead stop
(without falling over) once off, no matter how fast the rims
were turning a moment ago.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 2/6/2022 8:24 AM, Tim R wrote:
>
> I think there is a lot to the early learning experience. Just try to teach an adult to throw a ball - near impossible. If you want the experience, try with your nondominant hand.
>
> But I also see a mental aspect to this. Some people have the worldview that anything broken can be fixed or built, others just hit a dead stop, and I suspect that also develops at an early age.

Agreed! And I'll confess to being a bit compulsive about figuring
_anything_ can be fixed. I sometimes have to force myself to throw
things away.

> When my kids were in elementary school they ended up getting off the bus and nobody was home, my wife and I had missed connections somehow. (today we'd be arrested for child abuse) Locked out of the house, they didn't give up in helplessness, they decided to pick the lock. Of course they jammed it and I had to replace it, and I was a little embarassed that an engineer's kid did that, but then I thought better of it later. They had a sense that it was possible, they had some vague idea of how to start trying, and they accepted the challenge rather than giving up.

Nice story! When one of our kids had they same problem, he didn't try to
get through the lock. He found a basement window that wasn't quite
secure, got past the latch and managed to squeeze in through an opening
that appeared impossibly small.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 2/5/2022 11:11 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Sat, 5 Feb 2022 16:25:03 -0800 (PST), Frank Krygowski wrote:
>
>> I imagine that sort of capability has to be developed from an early age.
>
> That seems to be my experience. Many skills must be learned at an
> early age. For example, my attempts to learn (and re-learn) several
> foreign languages have all failed.

I can relate. My many years of dabbling at the Polish language have
mostly failed. (It is considered a difficult language to learn.) But
despite my difficulties understanding or speaking it, one teacher told
me my pronunciation is extremely good. I credit that to hearing it
spoken very, very frequently from a very young age.

I've read that all normal babies begin with the capability of hearing
(i.e. consciously registering) and eventually producing any sound a
human can make; but that as the brain develops, it filters out those
sounds that are not useful for the local language. After a certain age,
most people cannot learn to distinguish phonemes they have never used.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Sun, 6 Feb 2022 11:36:30 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 2/5/2022 11:11 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> On Sat, 5 Feb 2022 16:25:03 -0800 (PST), Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>
>>> I imagine that sort of capability has to be developed from an early age.
>>
>> That seems to be my experience. Many skills must be learned at an
>> early age. For example, my attempts to learn (and re-learn) several
>> foreign languages have all failed.
>
>I can relate. My many years of dabbling at the Polish language have
>mostly failed. (It is considered a difficult language to learn.) But
>despite my difficulties understanding or speaking it, one teacher told
>me my pronunciation is extremely good. I credit that to hearing it
>spoken very, very frequently from a very young age.
>
>I've read that all normal babies begin with the capability of hearing
>(i.e. consciously registering) and eventually producing any sound a
>human can make; but that as the brain develops, it filters out those
>sounds that are not useful for the local language. After a certain age,
>most people cannot learn to distinguish phonemes they have never used.

There is no question that some people learn languages more easily than
others. I once had a young chap work for me who came out of some
ghetto in the U.S. with a very minimal education and seemed to absorb
the Thai language like a sponge.

I don't know whether it had a bearing on his learning a language but
in trying to get him to pass the Air Force's skill tests I discovered
that he didn't understand what he read - dyslexia?
I've always wondered if that wasn't to some extent responsible for him
remembering a word if he heard it once or twice.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sunday, February 6, 2022 at 11:27:55 AM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> >
> No significant nexus to hub bearings and no if anything goes
> awry (highly unlikely) the only moving things are rim/tire
> with low mass, greatly outweighed by you and your bicycle.
> More dramatically on rollers this question is asked often.
> In reality one of the basic skills one learns riding rollers
> is to hop off and ride across the room.
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

I never did master riding on rollers. But before arthritis took over my ankle, I once ran a 10k while juggling 3 balls, does that count?

I was being a little facetious on the being propelled across the room thing, but recently there was a murder mystery on Netflix where the murderer snuck up on someone on an exercise bike and jammed a bar into the spokes, throwing the person off and killing him.

As I think back on the skewer thing, I did know how quick releases worked, but I think the skewer was too short for my 70s era bike, and the only way to get threads to grip was to leave it open. So my reasoning was that the clamp force of the cam lever had to be in the same direction as the nut on the other side. It's worked for 10 years or so.

And that means the hub hasn't been lubricated for 10 years. Do I need to take it off and do something about that?

On Monday, February 7, 2022 at 5:58:52 AM UTC-8, timoth...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, February 6, 2022 at 11:27:55 AM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> > >
> > No significant nexus to hub bearings and no if anything goes
> > awry (highly unlikely) the only moving things are rim/tire
> > with low mass, greatly outweighed by you and your bicycle.
> > More dramatically on rollers this question is asked often.
> > In reality one of the basic skills one learns riding rollers
> > is to hop off and ride across the room.
> > --
> > Andrew Muzi
> > <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> > Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> I never did master riding on rollers. But before arthritis took over my ankle, I once ran a 10k while juggling 3 balls, does that count?
>
> I was being a little facetious on the being propelled across the room thing, but recently there was a murder mystery on Netflix where the murderer snuck up on someone on an exercise bike and jammed a bar into the spokes, throwing the person off and killing him.
>
> As I think back on the skewer thing, I did know how quick releases worked, but I think the skewer was too short for my 70s era bike, and the only way to get threads to grip was to leave it open. So my reasoning was that the clamp force of the cam lever had to be in the same direction as the nut on the other side. It's worked for 10 years or so.
>
> And that means the hub hasn't been lubricated for 10 years. Do I need to take it off and do something about that?
The murder mysteries on Netflix are too dumb to watch. A bicycle on a trainer is going zero velocity so sticking an object in the spokes to stop the wheels would simply be a fall-over accident. While possible, death would be extremely unlikely. A smarter writer would have jammed the trainer so that the bike ran off of the trainer and into a wall or some such.

Whenever I watch these things I can barely stand them. I am not only logical but I know that most people have a very hard time hitting anything with pistol shot over 10 feet away. Even very good shooters like "Hickock45" miss regularly. That is why the rifle was invented.

On Mon, 7 Feb 2022 05:58:49 -0800 (PST), Tim R
<timothy42bach@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sunday, February 6, 2022 at 11:27:55 AM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>> >
>> No significant nexus to hub bearings and no if anything goes
>> awry (highly unlikely) the only moving things are rim/tire
>> with low mass, greatly outweighed by you and your bicycle.
>> More dramatically on rollers this question is asked often.
>> In reality one of the basic skills one learns riding rollers
>> is to hop off and ride across the room.
>> --
>> Andrew Muzi
>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>
>I never did master riding on rollers. But before arthritis took over my ankle, I once ran a 10k while juggling 3 balls, does that count?

Only if you stand on your head and pedal the bike (on rollers) with
your hands (:-)
>
>I was being a little facetious on the being propelled across the room thing, but recently there was a murder mystery on Netflix where the murderer snuck up on someone on an exercise bike and jammed a bar into the spokes, throwing the person off and killing him.
>
>As I think back on the skewer thing, I did know how quick releases worked, but I think the skewer was too short for my 70s era bike, and the only way to get threads to grip was to leave it open. So my reasoning was that the clamp force of the cam lever had to be in the same direction as the nut on the other side. It's worked for 10 years or so.
>
>And that means the hub hasn't been lubricated for 10 years. Do I need to take it off and do something about that?
--
Cheers,

John B.