Andrew, do I remember you saying that the spacing on the Shimano and Campagnolo 11 speed cassettes have the same inter-cog spacing?

On Wednesday, February 16, 2022 at 1:30:45 PM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
> Andrew, do I remember you saying that the spacing on the Shimano and Campagnolo 11 speed cassettes have the same inter-cog spacing?

Never mind, I found a Fit Werx article where they not only shifted perfectly in the stand but also riding. There was some problems with the end stops needing adjustment for the specific wheel but otherwise they are compatible.

On 2/16/2022 3:30 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> Andrew, do I remember you saying that the spacing on the Shimano and Campagnolo 11 speed cassettes have the same inter-cog spacing?
>

I didn't. Nines are all just nine speed but that's AFAIK the
only instance.

Elevens may well be- I do not know that. Some riders do run
the other wheel but I've never worked on such a setup.

A little web scratching shows Wheelworks NZ reporting in
bikerumor that the spacing is indeed different but not by
enough to be noticeable with all new equipment on both bikes.
So I guess one answer is 'maybe'. The other answer would be
'why?'

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Wednesday, February 16, 2022 at 2:47:59 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> On 2/16/2022 3:30 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > Andrew, do I remember you saying that the spacing on the Shimano and Campagnolo 11 speed cassettes have the same inter-cog spacing?
> >
> I didn't. Nines are all just nine speed but that's AFAIK the
> only instance.
>
> Elevens may well be- I do not know that. Some riders do run
> the other wheel but I've never worked on such a setup.
>
> A little web scratching shows Wheelworks NZ reporting in
> bikerumor that the spacing is indeed different but not by
> enough to be noticeable with all new equipment on both bikes.
> So I guess one answer is 'maybe'. The other answer would be
> 'why?'

I'm putting together another titanium bike that is (unbelievably) the correct size for me (24"). It is a custom made Lemond frame and it will need a good set of wheels. I always find it a little surprising that people buy a bike with good wheels on it (DT Swiss) and then take them off and stick them in the closet almost unused. So I get a $400 set of wheels for $90. And while they are a little older and have more than modern spoke count. I don't have to worry about wheel failures. I could buy a Campy Freehub for it, but there are some superlight Chinese Shimano hubs for dirt cheap. And I can even buy replacement cogs for the outside ends of the carrier.

"And, as I’ve said before, there is 100 percent shifting compatibility between 11-speed cassettes. In other words, Shimano, SRAM, and Campagnolo 11-speed cassettes work just fine on each others’ drivetrains. So, one way to use an old 10-speed wheel with an 11-speed drivetrain is to install a Campagnolo freehub body and Campagnolo 11-speed cassette on it.
― Lennard " (Zinn)

On 2/16/2022 6:32 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Wednesday, February 16, 2022 at 2:47:59 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>> The other answer would be 'why?'
>
> I'm putting together another titanium bike that is (unbelievably) the correct size for me (24").
Same question: Why?

You go through more bikes than anyone I've ever heard of. What exactly
are you trying to find?

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Wednesday, February 16, 2022 at 10:30:45 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
> Andrew, do I remember you saying that the spacing on the Shimano and Campagnolo 11 speed cassettes have the same inter-cog spacing?

I tried to measure the pitch: Shimano 11 sp: 3.75 mm, Campagnolo 11 sp: 3.8 mm

Lou

On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 10:34:21 AM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Wednesday, February 16, 2022 at 10:30:45 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > Andrew, do I remember you saying that the spacing on the Shimano and Campagnolo 11 speed cassettes have the same inter-cog spacing?
> I tried to measure the pitch: Shimano 11 sp: 3.75 mm, Campagnolo 11 sp: 3..8 mm

There are several articles out there that say that you cannot detect any difference in shifting performance between the brands of 11 speeds. They were measured and also ridden to test shifting performance so it would have been demonstrable. In any case I picked up (with a great deal of trouble) that set of wheels last night. Shimano requires a special 11 speed freehub whereas Campy is the same 10 and 11 speed freehub.

But I received the Lemond titanium frame last night and unpacking it discovered that it was a full frontal collision. And being Ti 4-6 it didn't bend but broke on the downtube and has a stress riser on the seat tube so it is absolutely not repairable as the ad said. I got my money back. Too bad since this would have been the perfect frame.

This leaves me with a set of like-new 'DT Swiss 10 speed wheels for Shimano.. I will have to consider buying an 11 speed Shimano freewheel to go with the superlight cassette which, being Chinese, is half the cost of a Shimano.

On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 10:34:21 AM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Wednesday, February 16, 2022 at 10:30:45 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > Andrew, do I remember you saying that the spacing on the Shimano and Campagnolo 11 speed cassettes have the same inter-cog spacing?
> I tried to measure the pitch: Shimano 11 sp: 3.75 mm, Campagnolo 11 sp: 3.8 mm

By the way, if your measurements were accurate, over the width of an 11 speed that would be a little under 22 thousandths of an inch. This cannot be a serious affront to shifting since the play in the rear derailleur is more than that,.

On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 12:56:25 PM UTC-6, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 10:34:21 AM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > On Wednesday, February 16, 2022 at 10:30:45 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > Andrew, do I remember you saying that the spacing on the Shimano and Campagnolo 11 speed cassettes have the same inter-cog spacing?
> > I tried to measure the pitch: Shimano 11 sp: 3.75 mm, Campagnolo 11 sp: 3.8 mm
> There are several articles out there that say that you cannot detect any difference in shifting performance between the brands of 11 speeds. They were measured and also ridden to test shifting performance so it would have been demonstrable. In any case I picked up (with a great deal of trouble) that set of wheels last night. Shimano requires a special 11 speed freehub whereas Campy is the same 10 and 11 speed freehub.
>
> But I received the Lemond titanium frame last night and unpacking it discovered that it was a full frontal collision. And being Ti 4-6 it didn't bend but broke on the downtube and has a stress riser on the seat tube so it is absolutely not repairable as the ad said. I got my money back. Too bad since this would have been the perfect frame.
>

Tommy, you've done confused me and perplexed me once more. You intentionally, and knowingly, bought a used Lemond titanium frame. And it was all busted up once you got it. And you concluded it was not repairable. AND the advertisement, seller, SAID it was not repairable. In the ad. So I have to, got to, ask, WHY did you buy the frame? Did you think you knew more about the frame than the seller? After all, the seller just crashed and broke the frame. What does he know? And you are an engineering expert and metallurgist. So you knew the seller did not know what he was talking about and you did. ??????????????

A good analogy would be if the newspaper for sale ad section had an ad saying a car was a piece of junk and was crashed and did not run. But you bought it knowing the seller was a liar and you knew it would run as soon as you turned the key.

> This leaves me with a set of like-new 'DT Swiss 10 speed wheels for Shimano. I will have to consider buying an 11 speed Shimano freewheel to go with the superlight cassette which, being Chinese, is half the cost of a Shimano.

On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 11:22:42 PM UTC-8, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 12:56:25 PM UTC-6, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 10:34:21 AM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, February 16, 2022 at 10:30:45 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > Andrew, do I remember you saying that the spacing on the Shimano and Campagnolo 11 speed cassettes have the same inter-cog spacing?
> > > I tried to measure the pitch: Shimano 11 sp: 3.75 mm, Campagnolo 11 sp: 3.8 mm
> > There are several articles out there that say that you cannot detect any difference in shifting performance between the brands of 11 speeds. They were measured and also ridden to test shifting performance so it would have been demonstrable. In any case I picked up (with a great deal of trouble) that set of wheels last night. Shimano requires a special 11 speed freehub whereas Campy is the same 10 and 11 speed freehub.
> >
> > But I received the Lemond titanium frame last night and unpacking it discovered that it was a full frontal collision. And being Ti 4-6 it didn't bend but broke on the downtube and has a stress riser on the seat tube so it is absolutely not repairable as the ad said. I got my money back. Too bad since this would have been the perfect frame.
> >
> Tommy, you've done confused me and perplexed me once more. You intentionally, and knowingly, bought a used Lemond titanium frame. And it was all busted up once you got it. And you concluded it was not repairable. AND the advertisement, seller, SAID it was not repairable. In the ad. So I have to, got to, ask, WHY did you buy the frame? Did you think you knew more about the frame than the seller? After all, the seller just crashed and broke the frame. What does he know? And you are an engineering expert and metallurgist.. So you knew the seller did not know what he was talking about and you did.. ??????????????
>
> A good analogy would be if the newspaper for sale ad section had an ad saying a car was a piece of junk and was crashed and did not run. But you bought it knowing the seller was a liar and you knew it would run as soon as you turned the key.
> > This leaves me with a set of like-new 'DT Swiss 10 speed wheels for Shimano. I will have to consider buying an 11 speed Shimano freewheel to go with the superlight cassette which, being Chinese, is half the cost of a Shimano.

We have gone through this how many times now? Because you don't have normal use of the English language doesn't give you the right to invent things you'd like to have happened. “"used with minor blemishes - cracked by the cup holder, can be repaired. See photos for details."”

It was cracked by the cup holder and all you had to do was knock on the tube to hear that it was fractured all of the way through 360 degrees at an angle that left the ends 3" apart. Also there was an unacknowledged stress riser on the seat tube that would have broken that tube if the downtube was perfect. The seller then acknowledged that this frame was in stock in the store he had bought out and really hadn't inspected.

You don't know a thing about anything you decide to comment on and yet that doesn't in the least slow you up.

On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 12:00:16 PM UTC-6, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 11:22:42 PM UTC-8, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 12:56:25 PM UTC-6, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 10:34:21 AM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > > On Wednesday, February 16, 2022 at 10:30:45 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > > Andrew, do I remember you saying that the spacing on the Shimano and Campagnolo 11 speed cassettes have the same inter-cog spacing?
> > > > I tried to measure the pitch: Shimano 11 sp: 3.75 mm, Campagnolo 11 sp: 3.8 mm
> > > There are several articles out there that say that you cannot detect any difference in shifting performance between the brands of 11 speeds. They were measured and also ridden to test shifting performance so it would have been demonstrable. In any case I picked up (with a great deal of trouble) that set of wheels last night. Shimano requires a special 11 speed freehub whereas Campy is the same 10 and 11 speed freehub.
> > >
> > > But I received the Lemond titanium frame last night and unpacking it discovered that it was a full frontal collision. And being Ti 4-6 it didn't bend but broke on the downtube and has a stress riser on the seat tube so it is absolutely not repairable as the ad said. I got my money back. Too bad since this would have been the perfect frame.
> > >
> > Tommy, you've done confused me and perplexed me once more. You intentionally, and knowingly, bought a used Lemond titanium frame. And it was all busted up once you got it. And you concluded it was not repairable. AND the advertisement, seller, SAID it was not repairable. In the ad. So I have to, got to, ask, WHY did you buy the frame? Did you think you knew more about the frame than the seller? After all, the seller just crashed and broke the frame. What does he know? And you are an engineering expert and metallurgist. So you knew the seller did not know what he was talking about and you did. ??????????????
> >
> > A good analogy would be if the newspaper for sale ad section had an ad saying a car was a piece of junk and was crashed and did not run. But you bought it knowing the seller was a liar and you knew it would run as soon as you turned the key.
> > > This leaves me with a set of like-new 'DT Swiss 10 speed wheels for Shimano. I will have to consider buying an 11 speed Shimano freewheel to go with the superlight cassette which, being Chinese, is half the cost of a Shimano.
> We have gone through this how many times now? Because you don't have normal use of the English language doesn't give you the right to invent things you'd like to have happened. “"used with minor blemishes - cracked by the cup holder, can be repaired. See photos for details."”
>
> It was cracked by the cup holder and all you had to do was knock on the tube to hear that it was fractured all of the way through 360 degrees at an angle that left the ends 3" apart. Also there was an unacknowledged stress riser on the seat tube that would have broken that tube if the downtube was perfect. The seller then acknowledged that this frame was in stock in the store he had bought out and really hadn't inspected.
>
> You don't know a thing about anything you decide to comment on and yet that doesn't in the least slow you up.

So you bought a Lemond titanium frame with the description "used with minor blemishes - cracked by the cup holder, can be repaired. See photos for details." An item you DID NOT include previously. Why didn't you put that in before? Anyway, when you saw the word CRACKED, what went through your mind? The seller way lying and it was not really cracked because you the genius knew better? Or since you are a titanium welding expert, you can easily repair it. Anyone with any intelligence at all, not you, would see the word cracked and pass on it. For a bicycle frame anyway.

Again, my analogy up above of buying a used car in the for sale section where the description clearly says its a piece of junk and does not run and will not start. And you buy it thinking the seller is a liar and you know better and can turn it on and drive it just fine. The advertisement said it is CRACKED. And it was true!!!!!!!!!! Cracked frame. And you did not get the perfect frame. Shock and surprise.

Thye mental working inside your skull are truly a mystery wrapped in an enigma stuck up in the attic under the insulation.

On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 2:55:40 PM UTC-8, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 12:00:16 PM UTC-6, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 11:22:42 PM UTC-8, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 12:56:25 PM UTC-6, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 10:34:21 AM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > > > On Wednesday, February 16, 2022 at 10:30:45 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > > > Andrew, do I remember you saying that the spacing on the Shimano and Campagnolo 11 speed cassettes have the same inter-cog spacing?
> > > > > I tried to measure the pitch: Shimano 11 sp: 3.75 mm, Campagnolo 11 sp: 3.8 mm
> > > > There are several articles out there that say that you cannot detect any difference in shifting performance between the brands of 11 speeds. They were measured and also ridden to test shifting performance so it would have been demonstrable. In any case I picked up (with a great deal of trouble) that set of wheels last night. Shimano requires a special 11 speed freehub whereas Campy is the same 10 and 11 speed freehub.
> > > >
> > > > But I received the Lemond titanium frame last night and unpacking it discovered that it was a full frontal collision. And being Ti 4-6 it didn't bend but broke on the downtube and has a stress riser on the seat tube so it is absolutely not repairable as the ad said. I got my money back. Too bad since this would have been the perfect frame.
> > > >
> > > Tommy, you've done confused me and perplexed me once more. You intentionally, and knowingly, bought a used Lemond titanium frame. And it was all busted up once you got it. And you concluded it was not repairable. AND the advertisement, seller, SAID it was not repairable. In the ad. So I have to, got to, ask, WHY did you buy the frame? Did you think you knew more about the frame than the seller? After all, the seller just crashed and broke the frame. What does he know? And you are an engineering expert and metallurgist. So you knew the seller did not know what he was talking about and you did. ??????????????
> > >
> > > A good analogy would be if the newspaper for sale ad section had an ad saying a car was a piece of junk and was crashed and did not run. But you bought it knowing the seller was a liar and you knew it would run as soon as you turned the key.
> > > > This leaves me with a set of like-new 'DT Swiss 10 speed wheels for Shimano. I will have to consider buying an 11 speed Shimano freewheel to go with the superlight cassette which, being Chinese, is half the cost of a Shimano.
> > We have gone through this how many times now? Because you don't have normal use of the English language doesn't give you the right to invent things you'd like to have happened. “"used with minor blemishes - cracked by the cup holder, can be repaired. See photos for details."”
> >
> > It was cracked by the cup holder and all you had to do was knock on the tube to hear that it was fractured all of the way through 360 degrees at an angle that left the ends 3" apart. Also there was an unacknowledged stress riser on the seat tube that would have broken that tube if the downtube was perfect. The seller then acknowledged that this frame was in stock in the store he had bought out and really hadn't inspected.
> >
> > You don't know a thing about anything you decide to comment on and yet that doesn't in the least slow you up.
> So you bought a Lemond titanium frame with the description "used with minor blemishes - cracked by the cup holder, can be repaired. See photos for details." An item you DID NOT include previously. Why didn't you put that in before? Anyway, when you saw the word CRACKED, what went through your mind? The seller way lying and it was not really cracked because you the genius knew better? Or since you are a titanium welding expert, you can easily repair it. Anyone with any intelligence at all, not you, would see the word cracked and pass on it. For a bicycle frame anyway.
>
> Again, my analogy up above of buying a used car in the for sale section where the description clearly says its a piece of junk and does not run and will not start. And you buy it thinking the seller is a liar and you know better and can turn it on and drive it just fine. The advertisement said it is CRACKED. And it was true!!!!!!!!!! Cracked frame. And you did not get the perfect frame. Shock and surprise.
>
> Thye mental working inside your skull are truly a mystery wrapped in an enigma stuck up in the attic under the insulation.
Russell, what went through your head when you completely misquoted me? Did you believe that you "had me"? What do you know about metal working? Especially titanium? Oh, that's right, you're an "accountant" incapable of simple arithmetic who is now the worlds leading expert on statesmanship and now metal working.

At least you're good for a laugh. To tell you the truth I think that your stories of racing bicycles are from your time as a teenager. At this point I doubt you even capable of riding a bike.