There are some signs the world is finally moving away from "NEVER ride
your bike without a helmet!!"

King County (i.e. Seattle area, where a lot of this started) just
repealed its Mandatory Helmet Law.
https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/king-county-repeals-mandatory-bicycle-helmet-law/

I note, though, that in the quoted statements, nobody mentioned that
bicycling is actually a very minor source of serious brain injury. One
doctor alludes to his experiences with people with head injuries, but
worries only about _cyclists_ not wearing helmets "every single time."
What about the head injured pedestrians and motorists that outnumber the
head injured cyclists?

And Bicycling magazine has this article up:
https://www.bicycling.com/culture/a39001523/cars-kill-bike-helmets-dont-change-that/
This is the magazine that once derided and mocked Hollywood celebrities
whose photos showed them riding a bike without a helmet.

Again, the article's imperfect. The author calls for segregated bike
facilities, even though her friend was apparently on a sidewalk when he
was killed.

But these days, one has to applaud any signs of improved logic.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 2/18/2022 11:37 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> There are some signs the world is finally moving away from
> "NEVER ride your bike without a helmet!!"
>
> King County (i.e. Seattle area, where a lot of this started)
> just repealed its Mandatory Helmet Law.
> https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/king-county-repeals-mandatory-bicycle-helmet-law/
>
>
> I note, though, that in the quoted statements, nobody
> mentioned that bicycling is actually a very minor source of
> serious brain injury. One doctor alludes to his experiences
> with people with head injuries, but worries only about
> _cyclists_ not wearing helmets "every single time." What
> about the head injured pedestrians and motorists that
> outnumber the head injured cyclists?
>
> And Bicycling magazine has this article up:
> https://www.bicycling.com/culture/a39001523/cars-kill-bike-helmets-dont-change-that/
>
> This is the magazine that once derided and mocked Hollywood
> celebrities whose photos showed them riding a bike without a
> helmet.
>
> Again, the article's imperfect. The author calls for
> segregated bike facilities, even though her friend was
> apparently on a sidewalk when he was killed.
>
> But these days, one has to applaud any signs of improved logic.
>

Reification of totems abounds in our culture.

-Magic helmets, not pilot errors (either vehicle or both)
are the crux of head injuries.
-Firearms not criminals cause homicide.
-A negative wuhan virus test three days earlier means today
you're safe to fly on an airline.
-home video surveillance systems are called 'security'
systems'
and so on.

Oh, forgot my favorite. Trains cause crossing crashes!
https://ktla.com/news/nationworld/high-speed-rail-deaths-in-florida-rise-to-57-since-2017/

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 13:26:54 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 2/18/2022 11:37 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> There are some signs the world is finally moving away from
>> "NEVER ride your bike without a helmet!!"
>>
>> King County (i.e. Seattle area, where a lot of this started)
>> just repealed its Mandatory Helmet Law.
>> https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/king-county-repeals-mandatory-bicycle-helmet-law/
>>
>>
>> I note, though, that in the quoted statements, nobody
>> mentioned that bicycling is actually a very minor source of
>> serious brain injury. One doctor alludes to his experiences
>> with people with head injuries, but worries only about
>> _cyclists_ not wearing helmets "every single time." What
>> about the head injured pedestrians and motorists that
>> outnumber the head injured cyclists?
>>
>> And Bicycling magazine has this article up:
>> https://www.bicycling.com/culture/a39001523/cars-kill-bike-helmets-dont-change-that/
>>
>> This is the magazine that once derided and mocked Hollywood
>> celebrities whose photos showed them riding a bike without a
>> helmet.
>>
>> Again, the article's imperfect. The author calls for
>> segregated bike facilities, even though her friend was
>> apparently on a sidewalk when he was killed.
>>
>> But these days, one has to applaud any signs of improved logic.
>>
>
>Reification of totems abounds in our culture.
>
>-Magic helmets, not pilot errors (either vehicle or both)
>are the crux of head injuries.
>-Firearms not criminals cause homicide.
>-A negative wuhan virus test three days earlier means today
>you're safe to fly on an airline.
>-home video surveillance systems are called 'security'
> systems'
>and so on.
>
>Oh, forgot my favorite. Trains cause crossing crashes!
>https://ktla.com/news/nationworld/high-speed-rail-deaths-in-florida-rise-to-57-since-2017/

I would rather comment that the deaths, to a great extent demonstrate
a level of stupidity that is amazing. Here comes the train, 70 MPH and
the gates are down, red lights flashing and someone, apparently drives
out in front of the train.

Why not consider it as "selective breeding", getting rid of the more
stupid sector of humanity (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 11:38:03 AM UTC-6, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> There are some signs the world is finally moving away from "NEVER ride
> your bike without a helmet!!"
>
> King County (i.e. Seattle area, where a lot of this started) just
> repealed its Mandatory Helmet Law.
> https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/king-county-repeals-mandatory-bicycle-helmet-law/
>
> I note, though, that in the quoted statements, nobody mentioned that
> bicycling is actually a very minor source of serious brain injury. One
> doctor alludes to his experiences with people with head injuries, but
> worries only about _cyclists_ not wearing helmets "every single time."
> What about the head injured pedestrians and motorists that outnumber the
> head injured cyclists?
>
> And Bicycling magazine has this article up:
> https://www.bicycling.com/culture/a39001523/cars-kill-bike-helmets-dont-change-that/
> This is the magazine that once derided and mocked Hollywood celebrities
> whose photos showed them riding a bike without a helmet.
>
> Again, the article's imperfect. The author calls for segregated bike
> facilities, even though her friend was apparently on a sidewalk when he
> was killed.
>
> But these days, one has to applaud any signs of improved logic.
>
> --
> - Frank Krygowski

I've been involved in bike car accidents with and without helmets. My head came out better wearing the helmet than not wearing the helmet. Enough proof for me to keep wearing a helmet and recommend a helmet to others too.

On 2/18/2022 5:15 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 13:26:54 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>> On 2/18/2022 11:37 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> There are some signs the world is finally moving away from
>>> "NEVER ride your bike without a helmet!!"
>>>
>>> King County (i.e. Seattle area, where a lot of this started)
>>> just repealed its Mandatory Helmet Law.
>>> https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/king-county-repeals-mandatory-bicycle-helmet-law/
>>>
>>>
>>> I note, though, that in the quoted statements, nobody
>>> mentioned that bicycling is actually a very minor source of
>>> serious brain injury. One doctor alludes to his experiences
>>> with people with head injuries, but worries only about
>>> _cyclists_ not wearing helmets "every single time." What
>>> about the head injured pedestrians and motorists that
>>> outnumber the head injured cyclists?
>>>
>>> And Bicycling magazine has this article up:
>>> https://www.bicycling.com/culture/a39001523/cars-kill-bike-helmets-dont-change-that/
>>>
>>> This is the magazine that once derided and mocked Hollywood
>>> celebrities whose photos showed them riding a bike without a
>>> helmet.
>>>
>>> Again, the article's imperfect. The author calls for
>>> segregated bike facilities, even though her friend was
>>> apparently on a sidewalk when he was killed.
>>>
>>> But these days, one has to applaud any signs of improved logic.
>>>
>>
>> Reification of totems abounds in our culture.
>>
>> -Magic helmets, not pilot errors (either vehicle or both)
>> are the crux of head injuries.
>> -Firearms not criminals cause homicide.
>> -A negative wuhan virus test three days earlier means today
>> you're safe to fly on an airline.
>> -home video surveillance systems are called 'security'
>> systems'
>> and so on.
>>
>> Oh, forgot my favorite. Trains cause crossing crashes!
>> https://ktla.com/news/nationworld/high-speed-rail-deaths-in-florida-rise-to-57-since-2017/
>
>
> I would rather comment that the deaths, to a great extent demonstrate
> a level of stupidity that is amazing. Here comes the train, 70 MPH and
> the gates are down, red lights flashing and someone, apparently drives
> out in front of the train.
>
> Why not consider it as "selective breeding", getting rid of the more
> stupid sector of humanity (:-)
>

We agree.
But watch your local papers. The headline is 'Train hits auto'.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 15:27:31 -0800 (PST), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
<ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 11:38:03 AM UTC-6, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> There are some signs the world is finally moving away from "NEVER ride
>> your bike without a helmet!!"
>>
>> King County (i.e. Seattle area, where a lot of this started) just
>> repealed its Mandatory Helmet Law.
>> https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/king-county-repeals-mandatory-bicycle-helmet-law/
>>
>> I note, though, that in the quoted statements, nobody mentioned that
>> bicycling is actually a very minor source of serious brain injury. One
>> doctor alludes to his experiences with people with head injuries, but
>> worries only about _cyclists_ not wearing helmets "every single time."
>> What about the head injured pedestrians and motorists that outnumber the
>> head injured cyclists?
>>
>> And Bicycling magazine has this article up:
>> https://www.bicycling.com/culture/a39001523/cars-kill-bike-helmets-dont-change-that/
>> This is the magazine that once derided and mocked Hollywood celebrities
>> whose photos showed them riding a bike without a helmet.
>>
>> Again, the article's imperfect. The author calls for segregated bike
>> facilities, even though her friend was apparently on a sidewalk when he
>> was killed.
>>
>> But these days, one has to applaud any signs of improved logic.
>>
>> --
>> - Frank Krygowski
>
>I've been involved in bike car accidents with and without helmets. My head came out better wearing the helmet than not wearing the helmet. Enough proof for me to keep wearing a helmet and recommend a helmet to others too.

That is a problem with using personal experiences to justify something
or another.

I have had two bicycle crashes of sufficient severity to break bones,
once my pelvis and once my ribs... and in neither case was there even
a mark on my helmet. No indication that my head had hit the pavement
at all.

Proof that a helmet does no good at all (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 18:37:32 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 2/18/2022 5:15 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 13:26:54 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2/18/2022 11:37 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> There are some signs the world is finally moving away from
>>>> "NEVER ride your bike without a helmet!!"
>>>>
>>>> King County (i.e. Seattle area, where a lot of this started)
>>>> just repealed its Mandatory Helmet Law.
>>>> https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/king-county-repeals-mandatory-bicycle-helmet-law/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I note, though, that in the quoted statements, nobody
>>>> mentioned that bicycling is actually a very minor source of
>>>> serious brain injury. One doctor alludes to his experiences
>>>> with people with head injuries, but worries only about
>>>> _cyclists_ not wearing helmets "every single time." What
>>>> about the head injured pedestrians and motorists that
>>>> outnumber the head injured cyclists?
>>>>
>>>> And Bicycling magazine has this article up:
>>>> https://www.bicycling.com/culture/a39001523/cars-kill-bike-helmets-dont-change-that/
>>>>
>>>> This is the magazine that once derided and mocked Hollywood
>>>> celebrities whose photos showed them riding a bike without a
>>>> helmet.
>>>>
>>>> Again, the article's imperfect. The author calls for
>>>> segregated bike facilities, even though her friend was
>>>> apparently on a sidewalk when he was killed.
>>>>
>>>> But these days, one has to applaud any signs of improved logic.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Reification of totems abounds in our culture.
>>>
>>> -Magic helmets, not pilot errors (either vehicle or both)
>>> are the crux of head injuries.
>>> -Firearms not criminals cause homicide.
>>> -A negative wuhan virus test three days earlier means today
>>> you're safe to fly on an airline.
>>> -home video surveillance systems are called 'security'
>>> systems'
>>> and so on.
>>>
>>> Oh, forgot my favorite. Trains cause crossing crashes!
>>> https://ktla.com/news/nationworld/high-speed-rail-deaths-in-florida-rise-to-57-since-2017/
>>
>>
>> I would rather comment that the deaths, to a great extent demonstrate
>> a level of stupidity that is amazing. Here comes the train, 70 MPH and
>> the gates are down, red lights flashing and someone, apparently drives
>> out in front of the train.
>>
>> Why not consider it as "selective breeding", getting rid of the more
>> stupid sector of humanity (:-)
>>
>
>We agree.
>But watch your local papers. The headline is 'Train hits auto'.

Well, yes. Last month there was a report here of a guy that was "hit
by a train" and the article went on to say that "he was apparently
sleeping on the track" although admittedly the article didn't go on to
explain why he was sleeping there.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 9:00:35 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
> On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 15:27:31 -0800 (PST), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 11:38:03 AM UTC-6, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >> There are some signs the world is finally moving away from "NEVER ride
> >> your bike without a helmet!!"
> >>
> >> King County (i.e. Seattle area, where a lot of this started) just
> >> repealed its Mandatory Helmet Law.
> >> https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/king-county-repeals-mandatory-bicycle-helmet-law/
> >>
> >> I note, though, that in the quoted statements, nobody mentioned that
> >> bicycling is actually a very minor source of serious brain injury. One
> >> doctor alludes to his experiences with people with head injuries, but
> >> worries only about _cyclists_ not wearing helmets "every single time."
> >> What about the head injured pedestrians and motorists that outnumber the
> >> head injured cyclists?
> >>
> >> And Bicycling magazine has this article up:
> >> https://www.bicycling.com/culture/a39001523/cars-kill-bike-helmets-dont-change-that/
> >> This is the magazine that once derided and mocked Hollywood celebrities
> >> whose photos showed them riding a bike without a helmet.
> >>
> >> Again, the article's imperfect. The author calls for segregated bike
> >> facilities, even though her friend was apparently on a sidewalk when he
> >> was killed.
> >>
> >> But these days, one has to applaud any signs of improved logic.
> >>
> >> --
> >> - Frank Krygowski
> >
> >I've been involved in bike car accidents with and without helmets. My head came out better wearing the helmet than not wearing the helmet. Enough proof for me to keep wearing a helmet and recommend a helmet to others too.
> That is a problem with using personal experiences to justify something
> or another.
>
> I have had two bicycle crashes of sufficient severity to break bones,
> once my pelvis and once my ribs... and in neither case was there even
> a mark on my helmet. No indication that my head had hit the pavement
> at all.
>
> Proof that a helmet does no good at all (:-)
> --
> Cheers,
>
> John B.

Your personal experience should have justified to you to wear body armor when riding a bike. After the first torso bones were broken, I would have thought you would learn to protect that part of the body. Make a mistake once, and its a learning experience. Make the same mistake a second time, and it proves you did not learn anything. I broke my head open in the first accident. After that I learned to use a helmet when riding a bike.

On 2/18/2022 7:37 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 2/18/2022 5:15 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 13:26:54 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2/18/2022 11:37 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> There are some signs the world is finally moving away from
>>>> "NEVER ride your bike without a helmet!!"
>>>>
>>>> King County (i.e. Seattle area, where a lot of this started)
>>>> just repealed its Mandatory Helmet Law.
>>>> https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/king-county-repeals-mandatory-bicycle-helmet-law/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I note, though, that in the quoted statements, nobody
>>>> mentioned that bicycling is actually a very minor source of
>>>> serious brain injury. One doctor alludes to his experiences
>>>> with people with head injuries, but worries only about
>>>> _cyclists_ not wearing helmets "every single time." What
>>>> about the head injured pedestrians and motorists that
>>>> outnumber the head injured cyclists?
>>>>
>>>> And Bicycling magazine has this article up:
>>>> https://www.bicycling.com/culture/a39001523/cars-kill-bike-helmets-dont-change-that/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This is the magazine that once derided and mocked Hollywood
>>>> celebrities whose photos showed them riding a bike without a
>>>> helmet.
>>>>
>>>> Again, the article's imperfect. The author calls for
>>>> segregated bike facilities, even though her friend was
>>>> apparently on a sidewalk when he was killed.
>>>>
>>>> But these days, one has to applaud any signs of improved logic.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Reification of totems abounds in our culture.
>>>
>>> -Magic helmets, not pilot errors (either vehicle or both)
>>> are the crux of head injuries.
>>> -Firearms not criminals cause homicide.
>>> -A negative wuhan virus test three days earlier means today
>>> you're safe to fly on an airline.
>>> -home video surveillance systems are called 'security'
>>>   systems'
>>> and so on.
>>>
>>> Oh, forgot my favorite. Trains cause crossing crashes!
>>> https://ktla.com/news/nationworld/high-speed-rail-deaths-in-florida-rise-to-57-since-2017/
>>>
>>
>>
>> I would rather comment that the deaths, to a great extent demonstrate
>> a level of stupidity that is amazing. Here comes the train, 70 MPH and
>> the gates are down, red lights flashing and someone, apparently drives
>> out in front of the train.
>>
>> Why not consider it as "selective breeding", getting rid of the more
>> stupid sector of humanity (:-)
>>
>
> We agree.
> But watch your local papers. The headline is 'Train hits auto'.

There have been similar complaints by some in the bicycling advocacy
community, saying things like "The headline should not say car kills
cyclist. It was the driver's fault, not the car's fault."

I understand their motive, but I think the objections are a bit
overdone. Headline writers have space for very few words. Perhaps in the
text of a news article we can ask for wording that assigns blame to the
driver; but as John's often and correctly pointed out, half the time the
cyclist is at fault. And I'm sure reporters have to be careful about
assigning blame.

In any case, I doubt anyone has ever thought "Damn, that train started
itself up and ran over that car!"

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 2/19/2022 3:40 AM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 9:00:35 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>> On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 15:27:31 -0800 (PST), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 11:38:03 AM UTC-6, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> There are some signs the world is finally moving away from "NEVER ride
>>>> your bike without a helmet!!"
>>>>
>>>> King County (i.e. Seattle area, where a lot of this started) just
>>>> repealed its Mandatory Helmet Law.
>>>> https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/king-county-repeals-mandatory-bicycle-helmet-law/
>>>>
>>>> I note, though, that in the quoted statements, nobody mentioned that
>>>> bicycling is actually a very minor source of serious brain injury. One
>>>> doctor alludes to his experiences with people with head injuries, but
>>>> worries only about _cyclists_ not wearing helmets "every single time."
>>>> What about the head injured pedestrians and motorists that outnumber the
>>>> head injured cyclists?
>>>>
>>>> And Bicycling magazine has this article up:
>>>> https://www.bicycling.com/culture/a39001523/cars-kill-bike-helmets-dont-change-that/
>>>> This is the magazine that once derided and mocked Hollywood celebrities
>>>> whose photos showed them riding a bike without a helmet.
>>>>
>>>> Again, the article's imperfect. The author calls for segregated bike
>>>> facilities, even though her friend was apparently on a sidewalk when he
>>>> was killed.
>>>>
>>>> But these days, one has to applaud any signs of improved logic.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>>
>>> I've been involved in bike car accidents with and without helmets. My head came out better wearing the helmet than not wearing the helmet. Enough proof for me to keep wearing a helmet and recommend a helmet to others too.
>> That is a problem with using personal experiences to justify something
>> or another.
>>
>> I have had two bicycle crashes of sufficient severity to break bones,
>> once my pelvis and once my ribs... and in neither case was there even
>> a mark on my helmet. No indication that my head had hit the pavement
>> at all.
>>
>> Proof that a helmet does no good at all (:-)
>> --
>> Cheers,
>>
>> John B.
>
> Your personal experience should have justified to you to wear body armor when riding a bike. After the first torso bones were broken, I would have thought you would learn to protect that part of the body. Make a mistake once, and its a learning experience. Make the same mistake a second time, and it proves you did not learn anything. I broke my head open in the first accident. After that I learned to use a helmet when riding a bike.

Hmm. I've learned not to crash. Much more effective!

Of course, I learned that back when I was in my teens.

Fun fact: It's been documented that helmeted riders crash quite a bit
more often than people riding without helmets. I'm sure I can dig up the
links if people need them. But as one example, in the most notorious bit
of pro-helmet propaganda (Thompson & Rivara, 1989 or so), the percentage
of ER kids in helmets was nearly seven times the percentage of kids
city-wide in helmets.

--
- Frank Krygowski

with <1n901hh4gr0h99h3ifjfp4glk3t94v3hbj@4ax.com> John B wrote:
> On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 13:26:54 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>On 2/18/2022 11:37 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:

*SKIP*
>>> King County (i.e. Seattle area, where a lot of this started) just
>>> repealed its Mandatory Helmet Law.
*SKIP*
>>Oh, forgot my favorite. Trains cause crossing crashes!
*SKIP*
> I would rather comment that the deaths, to a great extent demonstrate
> a level of stupidity that is amazing. Here comes the train, 70 MPH and
> the gates are down, red lights flashing and someone, apparently drives
> out in front of the train.
>
> Why not consider it as "selective breeding", getting rid of the more
> stupid sector of humanity (:-)

That's too easy. Add The Lizard People and elections to the mix and you
got yourself a conspiracy.

--
Torvalds' goal for Linux is very simple: World Domination
Stallman's goal for GNU is even simpler: Freedom

On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 3:27:35 PM UTC-8, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 11:38:03 AM UTC-6, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > There are some signs the world is finally moving away from "NEVER ride
> > your bike without a helmet!!"
> >
> > King County (i.e. Seattle area, where a lot of this started) just
> > repealed its Mandatory Helmet Law.
> > https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/king-county-repeals-mandatory-bicycle-helmet-law/
> >
> > I note, though, that in the quoted statements, nobody mentioned that
> > bicycling is actually a very minor source of serious brain injury. One
> > doctor alludes to his experiences with people with head injuries, but
> > worries only about _cyclists_ not wearing helmets "every single time."
> > What about the head injured pedestrians and motorists that outnumber the
> > head injured cyclists?
> >
> > And Bicycling magazine has this article up:
> > https://www.bicycling.com/culture/a39001523/cars-kill-bike-helmets-dont-change-that/
> > This is the magazine that once derided and mocked Hollywood celebrities
> > whose photos showed them riding a bike without a helmet.
> >
> > Again, the article's imperfect. The author calls for segregated bike
> > facilities, even though her friend was apparently on a sidewalk when he
> > was killed.
> >
> > But these days, one has to applaud any signs of improved logic.
> >
> > --
> > - Frank Krygowski
> I've been involved in bike car accidents with and without helmets. My head came out better wearing the helmet than not wearing the helmet. Enough proof for me to keep wearing a helmet and recommend a helmet to others too.

In minor accidents a helmet acts as a buffer by spreading the impact zone, hence in these minor impacts you probable are better off with a helmet. But foam helmets cannot compress rapidly enough to prevent concussion and this is the major source of death in collisions above a certain velocity and over this speed helmets offer no protection.

Trek under their brand name Bontrager and type "Wavecell" helmets are specifically designed to collapse rapidly enough to prevent too rapid deceleration and hence appear to be an improvement. As they decelerate the material increases in density and deceleration increases so that they can still pass the industry standard test. There is no significant amount of data to show whether they are an improvement or not. And like the foam helmet, they have no effect over that critical speed.

They were also engineered to protect the entire head and so the shape is not what you're used to. They are not as comfortable as, say, a Giro helmet. But within the critical zone such as where I was so seriously injured they appear to be a far superior design. The other day I lost my balance while getting ready to ride and tipped over backwards,. This was a fall from my full height of 6'4". The Wavecell rebounds and the plastic outer cover does as well so it is usable after one of these whereas a foam helmet is not. The distance I fell to cause that severe concussion was about 2'. In that case I was knocked out for over 5 minutes. On my fall-over I was barely jarred.. I stood up directly. Now part of this had to do with the direction of the collision (full frontal vs side blow) but remember that I am now far more sensitive to concussion.

I would also like to underscore that there is a speed zone in which the helmet fails to protect you and you die from an inadequate helmet and any faster collision a helmet has no effect at all. Perhaps this middle zone would be extended by the Wavecell helmet but again, the data is inadequate to back that supposition up. But what we can certainly say is that anyone that says "My helmet saved my life" is someone that doesn't understand the physics of the problem. A helmet can save you from perhaps serious injuries but not save your life.

The Wavecell is at the maximum limit of size that a rider can stand so you can't improve a helmet by making it larger and using some sort of "improved" softer polystyrene foam.

I have studied helmet since I race motorcycles in the late 80's and even wrote a paper on them for bicycles http://www.vehicularcyclist.com/kunich.html Motorcycle helmets do NOT act like a bicycle helmet and using the original Bell data led to wild misunderstandings of helmets and their effect on safety.

On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 9:37:36 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 2/19/2022 3:40 AM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 9:00:35 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
> >> On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 15:27:31 -0800 (PST), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> >> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 11:38:03 AM UTC-6, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>> There are some signs the world is finally moving away from "NEVER ride
> >>>> your bike without a helmet!!"
> >>>>
> >>>> King County (i.e. Seattle area, where a lot of this started) just
> >>>> repealed its Mandatory Helmet Law.
> >>>> https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/king-county-repeals-mandatory-bicycle-helmet-law/
> >>>>
> >>>> I note, though, that in the quoted statements, nobody mentioned that
> >>>> bicycling is actually a very minor source of serious brain injury. One
> >>>> doctor alludes to his experiences with people with head injuries, but
> >>>> worries only about _cyclists_ not wearing helmets "every single time.."
> >>>> What about the head injured pedestrians and motorists that outnumber the
> >>>> head injured cyclists?
> >>>>
> >>>> And Bicycling magazine has this article up:
> >>>> https://www.bicycling.com/culture/a39001523/cars-kill-bike-helmets-dont-change-that/
> >>>> This is the magazine that once derided and mocked Hollywood celebrities
> >>>> whose photos showed them riding a bike without a helmet.
> >>>>
> >>>> Again, the article's imperfect. The author calls for segregated bike
> >>>> facilities, even though her friend was apparently on a sidewalk when he
> >>>> was killed.
> >>>>
> >>>> But these days, one has to applaud any signs of improved logic.
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> - Frank Krygowski
> >>>
> >>> I've been involved in bike car accidents with and without helmets. My head came out better wearing the helmet than not wearing the helmet. Enough proof for me to keep wearing a helmet and recommend a helmet to others too.
> >> That is a problem with using personal experiences to justify something
> >> or another.
> >>
> >> I have had two bicycle crashes of sufficient severity to break bones,
> >> once my pelvis and once my ribs... and in neither case was there even
> >> a mark on my helmet. No indication that my head had hit the pavement
> >> at all.
> >>
> >> Proof that a helmet does no good at all (:-)
> >> --
> >> Cheers,
> >>
> >> John B.
> >
> > Your personal experience should have justified to you to wear body armor when riding a bike. After the first torso bones were broken, I would have thought you would learn to protect that part of the body. Make a mistake once, and its a learning experience. Make the same mistake a second time, and it proves you did not learn anything. I broke my head open in the first accident. After that I learned to use a helmet when riding a bike.
> Hmm. I've learned not to crash. Much more effective!
>
> Of course, I learned that back when I was in my teens.
>
> Fun fact: It's been documented that helmeted riders crash quite a bit
> more often than people riding without helmets. I'm sure I can dig up the
> links if people need them. But as one example, in the most notorious bit
> of pro-helmet propaganda (Thompson & Rivara, 1989 or so), the percentage
> of ER kids in helmets was nearly seven times the percentage of kids
> city-wide in helmets.

Frank, you have very limited control over crashing a bike. You cannot learn to prevent a car from hitting you as occurred to me a couple of years ago. While crossing an intersection the car next to a woman started turning right and the driver of the car in the lane I was crossing took that to mean the way was clear and accelerated into me. You cannot "learn to not crash".

On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 00:40:10 -0800 (PST), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
<ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 9:00:35 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>> On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 15:27:31 -0800 (PST), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 11:38:03 AM UTC-6, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> >> There are some signs the world is finally moving away from "NEVER ride
>> >> your bike without a helmet!!"
>> >>
>> >> King County (i.e. Seattle area, where a lot of this started) just
>> >> repealed its Mandatory Helmet Law.
>> >> https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/king-county-repeals-mandatory-bicycle-helmet-law/
>> >>
>> >> I note, though, that in the quoted statements, nobody mentioned that
>> >> bicycling is actually a very minor source of serious brain injury. One
>> >> doctor alludes to his experiences with people with head injuries, but
>> >> worries only about _cyclists_ not wearing helmets "every single time."
>> >> What about the head injured pedestrians and motorists that outnumber the
>> >> head injured cyclists?
>> >>
>> >> And Bicycling magazine has this article up:
>> >> https://www.bicycling.com/culture/a39001523/cars-kill-bike-helmets-dont-change-that/
>> >> This is the magazine that once derided and mocked Hollywood celebrities
>> >> whose photos showed them riding a bike without a helmet.
>> >>
>> >> Again, the article's imperfect. The author calls for segregated bike
>> >> facilities, even though her friend was apparently on a sidewalk when he
>> >> was killed.
>> >>
>> >> But these days, one has to applaud any signs of improved logic.
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> - Frank Krygowski
>> >
>> >I've been involved in bike car accidents with and without helmets. My head came out better wearing the helmet than not wearing the helmet. Enough proof for me to keep wearing a helmet and recommend a helmet to others too.
>> That is a problem with using personal experiences to justify something
>> or another.
>>
>> I have had two bicycle crashes of sufficient severity to break bones,
>> once my pelvis and once my ribs... and in neither case was there even
>> a mark on my helmet. No indication that my head had hit the pavement
>> at all.
>>
>> Proof that a helmet does no good at all (:-)
>> --
>> Cheers,
>>
>> John B.
>
>Your personal experience should have justified to you to wear body armor when riding a bike. After the first torso bones were broken, I would have thought you would learn to protect that part of the body. Make a mistake once, and its a learning experience. Make the same mistake a second time, and it proves you did not learn anything. I broke my head open in the first accident. After that I learned to use a helmet when riding a bike.

Well, actually the bicycle broken bones came rather late in life and
my first broken rib(s) occurred when I was about 21 years of age - I
slipped and fell against the edge of an airplane hatch - and I don't
think body armor was available in those far off days (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 13:53:33 +0000, Eric Pozharski
<whynot@pozharski.name> wrote:

>with <1n901hh4gr0h99h3ifjfp4glk3t94v3hbj@4ax.com> John B wrote:
>> On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 13:26:54 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>On 2/18/2022 11:37 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>
>*SKIP*
>>>> King County (i.e. Seattle area, where a lot of this started) just
>>>> repealed its Mandatory Helmet Law.
>*SKIP*
>>>Oh, forgot my favorite. Trains cause crossing crashes!
>*SKIP*
>> I would rather comment that the deaths, to a great extent demonstrate
>> a level of stupidity that is amazing. Here comes the train, 70 MPH and
>> the gates are down, red lights flashing and someone, apparently drives
>> out in front of the train.
>>
>> Why not consider it as "selective breeding", getting rid of the more
>> stupid sector of humanity (:-)
>
>That's too easy. Add The Lizard People and elections to the mix and you
>got yourself a conspiracy.

What would one call it? The conspiracy of the Elders of the Lizard
Peoples? Or maybe the conspiracy of the stupid?

The latter seems quite appropriate (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 11:11:41 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 2/18/2022 7:37 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 2/18/2022 5:15 PM, John B. wrote:
>>> On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 13:26:54 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2/18/2022 11:37 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>> There are some signs the world is finally moving away from
>>>>> "NEVER ride your bike without a helmet!!"
>>>>>
>>>>> King County (i.e. Seattle area, where a lot of this started)
>>>>> just repealed its Mandatory Helmet Law.
>>>>> https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/king-county-repeals-mandatory-bicycle-helmet-law/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I note, though, that in the quoted statements, nobody
>>>>> mentioned that bicycling is actually a very minor source of
>>>>> serious brain injury. One doctor alludes to his experiences
>>>>> with people with head injuries, but worries only about
>>>>> _cyclists_ not wearing helmets "every single time." What
>>>>> about the head injured pedestrians and motorists that
>>>>> outnumber the head injured cyclists?
>>>>>
>>>>> And Bicycling magazine has this article up:
>>>>> https://www.bicycling.com/culture/a39001523/cars-kill-bike-helmets-dont-change-that/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> This is the magazine that once derided and mocked Hollywood
>>>>> celebrities whose photos showed them riding a bike without a
>>>>> helmet.
>>>>>
>>>>> Again, the article's imperfect. The author calls for
>>>>> segregated bike facilities, even though her friend was
>>>>> apparently on a sidewalk when he was killed.
>>>>>
>>>>> But these days, one has to applaud any signs of improved logic.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Reification of totems abounds in our culture.
>>>>
>>>> -Magic helmets, not pilot errors (either vehicle or both)
>>>> are the crux of head injuries.
>>>> -Firearms not criminals cause homicide.
>>>> -A negative wuhan virus test three days earlier means today
>>>> you're safe to fly on an airline.
>>>> -home video surveillance systems are called 'security'
>>>>   systems'
>>>> and so on.
>>>>
>>>> Oh, forgot my favorite. Trains cause crossing crashes!
>>>> https://ktla.com/news/nationworld/high-speed-rail-deaths-in-florida-rise-to-57-since-2017/
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I would rather comment that the deaths, to a great extent demonstrate
>>> a level of stupidity that is amazing. Here comes the train, 70 MPH and
>>> the gates are down, red lights flashing and someone, apparently drives
>>> out in front of the train.
>>>
>>> Why not consider it as "selective breeding", getting rid of the more
>>> stupid sector of humanity (:-)
>>>
>>
>> We agree.
>> But watch your local papers. The headline is 'Train hits auto'.
>
>There have been similar complaints by some in the bicycling advocacy
>community, saying things like "The headline should not say car kills
>cyclist. It was the driver's fault, not the car's fault."
>
>I understand their motive, but I think the objections are a bit
>overdone. Headline writers have space for very few words. Perhaps in the
>text of a news article we can ask for wording that assigns blame to the
>driver; but as John's often and correctly pointed out, half the time the
>cyclist is at fault. And I'm sure reporters have to be careful about
>assigning blame.
>
>In any case, I doubt anyone has ever thought "Damn, that train started
>itself up and ran over that car!"

Back in the days of Newspapers I believe there was a saying that
"Disasters sell Newspapers", or words to that effect, and it is true
today. After all you never see a Headline, or even a Sub-Head saying
"Grandma O'Leary baked a 3 level birthday cake for her Grandson
Wilbur", but "Give way to elephants or go to jail", (two days ago
Bangkok Post) certainly made the news. Yup, in "The Land of Smiles",
today, if you hit or injure an elephant you can be fined 1 million
baht (about 3,333 days pay at minimum salary) And/or a 10 year prison
sentence.
https://www.bangkokpost.com/thailand/general/2265699/give-way-to-elephants-or-go-to-jail

And Franks brags abut bicycles right to impede traffic in Ohio (:-(

--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 12:37:30 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 2/19/2022 3:40 AM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
>> On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 9:00:35 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>>> On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 15:27:31 -0800 (PST), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 11:38:03 AM UTC-6, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>> There are some signs the world is finally moving away from "NEVER ride
>>>>> your bike without a helmet!!"
>>>>>
>>>>> King County (i.e. Seattle area, where a lot of this started) just
>>>>> repealed its Mandatory Helmet Law.
>>>>> https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/king-county-repeals-mandatory-bicycle-helmet-law/
>>>>>
>>>>> I note, though, that in the quoted statements, nobody mentioned that
>>>>> bicycling is actually a very minor source of serious brain injury. One
>>>>> doctor alludes to his experiences with people with head injuries, but
>>>>> worries only about _cyclists_ not wearing helmets "every single time."
>>>>> What about the head injured pedestrians and motorists that outnumber the
>>>>> head injured cyclists?
>>>>>
>>>>> And Bicycling magazine has this article up:
>>>>> https://www.bicycling.com/culture/a39001523/cars-kill-bike-helmets-dont-change-that/
>>>>> This is the magazine that once derided and mocked Hollywood celebrities
>>>>> whose photos showed them riding a bike without a helmet.
>>>>>
>>>>> Again, the article's imperfect. The author calls for segregated bike
>>>>> facilities, even though her friend was apparently on a sidewalk when he
>>>>> was killed.
>>>>>
>>>>> But these days, one has to applaud any signs of improved logic.
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>>>
>>>> I've been involved in bike car accidents with and without helmets. My head came out better wearing the helmet than not wearing the helmet. Enough proof for me to keep wearing a helmet and recommend a helmet to others too.
>>> That is a problem with using personal experiences to justify something
>>> or another.
>>>
>>> I have had two bicycle crashes of sufficient severity to break bones,
>>> once my pelvis and once my ribs... and in neither case was there even
>>> a mark on my helmet. No indication that my head had hit the pavement
>>> at all.
>>>
>>> Proof that a helmet does no good at all (:-)
>>> --
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> John B.
>>
>> Your personal experience should have justified to you to wear body armor when riding a bike. After the first torso bones were broken, I would have thought you would learn to protect that part of the body. Make a mistake once, and its a learning experience. Make the same mistake a second time, and it proves you did not learn anything. I broke my head open in the first accident. After that I learned to use a helmet when riding a bike.
>
>Hmm. I've learned not to crash. Much more effective!
>
>Of course, I learned that back when I was in my teens.
>
>Fun fact: It's been documented that helmeted riders crash quite a bit
>more often than people riding without helmets. I'm sure I can dig up the
>links if people need them. But as one example, in the most notorious bit
>of pro-helmet propaganda (Thompson & Rivara, 1989 or so), the percentage
>of ER kids in helmets was nearly seven times the percentage of kids
>city-wide in helmets.

There was, also, an British study that showed that autos tended to
pass closer to cyclists wearing a helmet then those riding bare
headed.
https://helmets.org/walkerstudy.htm
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 2/19/2022 4:14 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 9:37:36 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 2/19/2022 3:40 AM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>> On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 9:00:35 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 15:27:31 -0800 (PST), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 11:38:03 AM UTC-6, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>> There are some signs the world is finally moving away from "NEVER ride
>>>>>> your bike without a helmet!!"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> King County (i.e. Seattle area, where a lot of this started) just
>>>>>> repealed its Mandatory Helmet Law.
>>>>>> https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/king-county-repeals-mandatory-bicycle-helmet-law/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I note, though, that in the quoted statements, nobody mentioned that
>>>>>> bicycling is actually a very minor source of serious brain injury. One
>>>>>> doctor alludes to his experiences with people with head injuries, but
>>>>>> worries only about _cyclists_ not wearing helmets "every single time."
>>>>>> What about the head injured pedestrians and motorists that outnumber the
>>>>>> head injured cyclists?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And Bicycling magazine has this article up:
>>>>>> https://www.bicycling.com/culture/a39001523/cars-kill-bike-helmets-dont-change-that/
>>>>>> This is the magazine that once derided and mocked Hollywood celebrities
>>>>>> whose photos showed them riding a bike without a helmet.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Again, the article's imperfect. The author calls for segregated bike
>>>>>> facilities, even though her friend was apparently on a sidewalk when he
>>>>>> was killed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But these days, one has to applaud any signs of improved logic.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>>>>
>>>>> I've been involved in bike car accidents with and without helmets. My head came out better wearing the helmet than not wearing the helmet. Enough proof for me to keep wearing a helmet and recommend a helmet to others too.
>>>> That is a problem with using personal experiences to justify something
>>>> or another.
>>>>
>>>> I have had two bicycle crashes of sufficient severity to break bones,
>>>> once my pelvis and once my ribs... and in neither case was there even
>>>> a mark on my helmet. No indication that my head had hit the pavement
>>>> at all.
>>>>
>>>> Proof that a helmet does no good at all (:-)
>>>> --
>>>> Cheers,
>>>>
>>>> John B.
>>>
>>> Your personal experience should have justified to you to wear body armor when riding a bike. After the first torso bones were broken, I would have thought you would learn to protect that part of the body. Make a mistake once, and its a learning experience. Make the same mistake a second time, and it proves you did not learn anything. I broke my head open in the first accident. After that I learned to use a helmet when riding a bike.
>> Hmm. I've learned not to crash. Much more effective!
>>
>> Of course, I learned that back when I was in my teens.
>>
>> Fun fact: It's been documented that helmeted riders crash quite a bit
>> more often than people riding without helmets. I'm sure I can dig up the
>> links if people need them. But as one example, in the most notorious bit
>> of pro-helmet propaganda (Thompson & Rivara, 1989 or so), the percentage
>> of ER kids in helmets was nearly seven times the percentage of kids
>> city-wide in helmets.
>
> Frank, you have very limited control over crashing a bike. You cannot learn to prevent a car from hitting you as occurred to me a couple of years ago. While crossing an intersection the car next to a woman started turning right and the driver of the car in the lane I was crossing took that to mean the way was clear and accelerated into me. You cannot "learn to not crash".

Gosh, I guess I've just been really, really lucky.

Just at random!

Year in and year out, for well over 50 years.

What are the odds?

(Two moving on-road falls as an adult cyclist. One when the forks
suddenly snapped off our custom tandem. The other descending a 20% grade
gravelly street in winter at walking speed.)

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 2/18/2022 12:37 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> There are some signs the world is finally moving away from "NEVER ride
> your bike without a helmet!!"
>
> King County (i.e. Seattle area, where a lot of this started) just
> repealed its Mandatory Helmet Law.
> https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/king-county-repeals-mandatory-bicycle-helmet-law/
>
>
> I note, though, that in the quoted statements, nobody mentioned that
> bicycling is actually a very minor source of serious brain injury. One
> doctor alludes to his experiences with people with head injuries, but
> worries only about _cyclists_ not wearing helmets "every single time."
> What about the head injured pedestrians and motorists that outnumber the
> head injured cyclists?
>
> And Bicycling magazine has this article up:
> https://www.bicycling.com/culture/a39001523/cars-kill-bike-helmets-dont-change-that/
>
> This is the magazine that once derided and mocked Hollywood celebrities
> whose photos showed them riding a bike without a helmet.
>
> Again, the article's imperfect. The author calls for segregated bike
> facilities, even though her friend was apparently on a sidewalk when he
> was killed.
>
> But these days, one has to applaud any signs of improved logic.

More on the helmet law repeal:
https://www.yahoo.com/news/seattle-bike-helmet-rule-dropped-152542953.html
with more details on the racism claims.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 11:37:36 AM UTC-6, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 2/19/2022 3:40 AM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 9:00:35 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
> >> On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 15:27:31 -0800 (PST), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> >> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 11:38:03 AM UTC-6, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>> There are some signs the world is finally moving away from "NEVER ride
> >>>> your bike without a helmet!!"
> >>>>
> >>>> King County (i.e. Seattle area, where a lot of this started) just
> >>>> repealed its Mandatory Helmet Law.
> >>>> https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/king-county-repeals-mandatory-bicycle-helmet-law/
> >>>>
> >>>> I note, though, that in the quoted statements, nobody mentioned that
> >>>> bicycling is actually a very minor source of serious brain injury. One
> >>>> doctor alludes to his experiences with people with head injuries, but
> >>>> worries only about _cyclists_ not wearing helmets "every single time.."
> >>>> What about the head injured pedestrians and motorists that outnumber the
> >>>> head injured cyclists?
> >>>>
> >>>> And Bicycling magazine has this article up:
> >>>> https://www.bicycling.com/culture/a39001523/cars-kill-bike-helmets-dont-change-that/
> >>>> This is the magazine that once derided and mocked Hollywood celebrities
> >>>> whose photos showed them riding a bike without a helmet.
> >>>>
> >>>> Again, the article's imperfect. The author calls for segregated bike
> >>>> facilities, even though her friend was apparently on a sidewalk when he
> >>>> was killed.
> >>>>
> >>>> But these days, one has to applaud any signs of improved logic.
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> - Frank Krygowski
> >>>
> >>> I've been involved in bike car accidents with and without helmets. My head came out better wearing the helmet than not wearing the helmet. Enough proof for me to keep wearing a helmet and recommend a helmet to others too.
> >> That is a problem with using personal experiences to justify something
> >> or another.
> >>
> >> I have had two bicycle crashes of sufficient severity to break bones,
> >> once my pelvis and once my ribs... and in neither case was there even
> >> a mark on my helmet. No indication that my head had hit the pavement
> >> at all.
> >>
> >> Proof that a helmet does no good at all (:-)
> >> --
> >> Cheers,
> >>
> >> John B.
> >
> > Your personal experience should have justified to you to wear body armor when riding a bike. After the first torso bones were broken, I would have thought you would learn to protect that part of the body. Make a mistake once, and its a learning experience. Make the same mistake a second time, and it proves you did not learn anything. I broke my head open in the first accident. After that I learned to use a helmet when riding a bike.
> Hmm. I've learned not to crash. Much more effective!
>
> Of course, I learned that back when I was in my teens.

I was only twelve. Beginning of 7th grade junior high. I was going down a hill, no helmet, riding to school. Car pulled out in front of me, I crashed into it, woke up in the hospital with a broken collar bone later in the day I believe. Still have a large scar on my forehead to remind me of that event. 40+ years later. Regarding the "Car pulled out in front of me" statement above, I assume that is what happened. I have zero memory of the event. I assume the car driver told the police or ambulance what happened when they came to the crash sight. It was later that day or the next day before I became conscious again.

>
> Fun fact: It's been documented that helmeted riders crash quite a bit
> more often than people riding without helmets. I'm sure I can dig up the
> links if people need them. But as one example, in the most notorious bit
> of pro-helmet propaganda (Thompson & Rivara, 1989 or so), the percentage
> of ER kids in helmets was nearly seven times the percentage of kids
> city-wide in helmets.
>
> --
> - Frank Krygowski

Did anyone take these findings and determine why? Did having a helmet cause the kid to be more reckless when riding? Attempt more dangerous activities because they were wearing a helmet? If the data you cite above is true, I would have thought an army of researchers would have lined up around the block to study it and write papers on it.

On 2/20/2022 2:40 AM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 11:37:36 AM UTC-6, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>
>>
>> Fun fact: It's been documented that helmeted riders crash quite a bit
>> more often than people riding without helmets. I'm sure I can dig up the
>> links if people need them. But as one example, in the most notorious bit
>> of pro-helmet propaganda (Thompson & Rivara, 1989 or so), the percentage
>> of ER kids in helmets was nearly seven times the percentage of kids
>> city-wide in helmets.
>>
>> --
>> - Frank Krygowski
>
> Did anyone take these findings and determine why? Did having a helmet cause the kid to be more reckless when riding? Attempt more dangerous activities because they were wearing a helmet? If the data you cite above is true, I would have thought an army of researchers would have lined up around the block to study it and write papers on it.

There's been quite a bit of speculation on that point, but AFAIK no
specific research. In fact, it's hard to imagine how such research would
be conducted.

The fact cited above was IIRC brought to light by Dr. Dorothy Robinson,
who used to post here. She's a professional research statistician in
Australia, so very used to digging into data. When the pro-helmet T&R
paper came out with its amazing claims, she contacted the authors and
asked for their data set. She found many, many faults with their paper
and said so, including the much greater chance that a helmeted kid would
be taken to ER. As a reward, the authors refused her any access to
further data in future studies. But it's interesting to note that her
rebuttals of the "85% effectiveness" claim were successfully used to
stop NHTSA from repeating that claim, and to quash a proposed all-ages
mandatory helmet law in Maryland.

About helmeted cyclists being over represented in ERs, etc. - possible
reasons proposed are Risk Compensation, which is the well proven fact
that when they feel "protected" people attempt behaviors they would
otherwise avoid. Which is not irrational, provided the protection
estimates are accurate. But "85% is almost 100%!" has probably led to
lots of risk taking. (All subsequent studies found far less helmet
protection, with some approaching zero.)

Even without helmet-induced risk compensation, I think the bulk of
ordinary (AKA unhelmeted) cyclists tend to ride slower, ride shorter
distances, stay on familiar streets, avoid riding close to others
(bike-bike crashes are as common as car-bike crashes), avoid riding at
night or in rain or other bad weather, etc.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 2/20/2022 6:20 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
>
>
> Wrt. risks - I'm still at loss why people who already own a bicycle
> helmet don't wear it while climbing stairs, use a stepladder or drive
> their car. Severe head injuries happen, that's for sure, but even deadly
> head injuries during harmless everyday activities outnumber such
> injuries from bicycle crashes by a great margin.

+1

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 2/20/2022 5:20 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
> Am Sat, 19 Feb 2022 19:34:51 -0500 schrieb Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net>:
>
>> On 2/19/2022 4:14 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
>>>>>>> I've been involved in bike car accidents with and without helmets.
>>>>>>> My head came out better wearing the helmet than not wearing the
>>>>>>> helmet. Enough proof for me to keep wearing a helmet and recommend a helmet to others too.
>
> This is not proof, but a conclusion from an unsupported assumption.
> There is valid reasoning, that wearing an oversized brake pad around
> your might hit your head to the road, creating a dangerous rotation,
> when there wouldn't happen anything without such headgear.
>
>>>>>> That is a problem with using personal experiences to justify something
>>>>>> or another.
>
> Exactly. So how do we know it is safe not to wear a helmet while
> walking stairs or just walking around? (But see below).
>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have had two bicycle crashes of sufficient severity to break bones,
>>>>>> once my pelvis and once my ribs... and in neither case was there even
>>>>>> a mark on my helmet. No indication that my head had hit the pavement
>>>>>> at all.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Proof that a helmet does no good at all (:-)
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> John B.
>>>>>
>>>>> Your personal experience should have justified to you to wear body armor when riding a bike. After the first torso bones were broken, I would have thought you would learn to protect that part of the body. Make a mistake once, and its a learning experience. Make the same mistake a second time, and it proves you did not learn
> anything. I broke my head open in the first accident. After that I learned to use a helmet when riding a bike.
>>>> Hmm. I've learned not to crash. Much more effective!
>>>>
>>>> Of course, I learned that back when I was in my teens.
>>>>
>>>> Fun fact: It's been documented that helmeted riders crash quite a bit
>>>> more often than people riding without helmets. I'm sure I can dig up the
>>>> links if people need them. But as one example, in the most notorious bit
>>>> of pro-helmet propaganda (Thompson & Rivara, 1989 or so), the percentage
>>>> of ER kids in helmets was nearly seven times the percentage of kids
>>>> city-wide in helmets.
>>>
>>> Frank, you have very limited control over crashing a bike. You cannot learn to prevent a car from hitting you as occurred to me a couple of years ago. While crossing an intersection the car next to a woman started turning right and the driver of the car in the lane I was crossing took that to mean the way was clear and
> accelerated into me. You cannot "learn to not crash".
>>
>> Gosh, I guess I've just been really, really lucky.
>
> I haven't been so lucky, broke my collar bone (comminuted fracture) plus
> six ribs, more than ten years ago, while riding home from work, getting
> some additional damage along the way.
>
> Contrary to popular, unfounded opinions about how and when such crashes
> occur, circumstances where: on a street mostly used by cars, most of the
> time (but not at that time, no traffic in sight), on a calm, sunny day
> in summer, at slow speed (my Garmin told me ~12 km/h == 7.5 mph), no
> mistake on my side.
>
> But ... neither did I wear a bicycle helmet, nor did my head touch the
> ground when when my front wheel tire suddenly deflated while I was
> banking through a narrow roundabout and fell as a result. My goatee
> touched the ground and I had severe bruises on the left side of my body
> in addition to the fractures.
>
> I haven't worn a bicycle helmet in the whole of my life, not because auf
> anecdotes like this, but because I studied the literature and analyzed
> the available statistics.
>
> Wrt. risks - I'm still at loss why people who already own a bicycle
> helmet don't wear it while climbing stairs, use a stepladder or drive
> their car. Severe head injuries happen, that's for sure, but even deadly
> head injuries during harmless everyday activities outnumber such
> injuries from bicycle crashes by a great margin.
>
> When I looked up the number of deaths by head injury in Germany a few
> years ago, there where more than twice as much deaths from people
> falling out or stumbling over their beds, than from happening to
> cyclists in traffic accidents. For months, we had more COVID-19-deaths
> per day (!) than cyclist deaths in a year. Contrary to myth, cycling
> on roads isn't especially dangerous, actually it is quite safe. Knowing
> the rules, proper behaviour, a working front brake and some strengh can
> make it even safer.
>
>>
>> Just at random!
>>
>> Year in and year out, for well over 50 years.
>>
>> What are the odds?
>>
>> (Two moving on-road falls as an adult cyclist. One when the forks
>> suddenly snapped off our custom tandem. The other descending a 20% grade
>> gravelly street in winter at walking speed.)
>
> Riding to work all year round for over 20 years, dense traffic under
> difficult conditions, gave me a rule of thumb: expect one serious fall
> per year. I got a partial fracture in my foot during a crash on a
> bicylce mandatory cycle path in 1994, when a young unemployed
> electricican apprentice hit me with his mothers car, when he took my
> right of way. One more reason to avoid "bicyling infrastructure" like
> the proverbial plague.
>
> "Who could have expected traffic coming from that direction?" he wrote,
> in the accident report to the police.
>
> Besides that, I only got abrasions and a laceration that required a few
> stitche. Most of the time, a fall didn't have any consequences
> whatsoever, not even damaged clothes.
>

+1 Nicely written.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 4:34:56 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 2/19/2022 4:14 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 9:37:36 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >> On 2/19/2022 3:40 AM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >>> On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 9:00:35 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
> >>>> On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 15:27:31 -0800 (PST), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> >>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 11:38:03 AM UTC-6, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>>>> There are some signs the world is finally moving away from "NEVER ride
> >>>>>> your bike without a helmet!!"
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> King County (i.e. Seattle area, where a lot of this started) just
> >>>>>> repealed its Mandatory Helmet Law.
> >>>>>> https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/king-county-repeals-mandatory-bicycle-helmet-law/
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I note, though, that in the quoted statements, nobody mentioned that
> >>>>>> bicycling is actually a very minor source of serious brain injury. One
> >>>>>> doctor alludes to his experiences with people with head injuries, but
> >>>>>> worries only about _cyclists_ not wearing helmets "every single time."
> >>>>>> What about the head injured pedestrians and motorists that outnumber the
> >>>>>> head injured cyclists?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> And Bicycling magazine has this article up:
> >>>>>> https://www.bicycling.com/culture/a39001523/cars-kill-bike-helmets-dont-change-that/
> >>>>>> This is the magazine that once derided and mocked Hollywood celebrities
> >>>>>> whose photos showed them riding a bike without a helmet.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Again, the article's imperfect. The author calls for segregated bike
> >>>>>> facilities, even though her friend was apparently on a sidewalk when he
> >>>>>> was killed.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> But these days, one has to applaud any signs of improved logic.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>>> - Frank Krygowski
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I've been involved in bike car accidents with and without helmets. My head came out better wearing the helmet than not wearing the helmet. Enough proof for me to keep wearing a helmet and recommend a helmet to others too.
> >>>> That is a problem with using personal experiences to justify something
> >>>> or another.
> >>>>
> >>>> I have had two bicycle crashes of sufficient severity to break bones,
> >>>> once my pelvis and once my ribs... and in neither case was there even
> >>>> a mark on my helmet. No indication that my head had hit the pavement
> >>>> at all.
> >>>>
> >>>> Proof that a helmet does no good at all (:-)
> >>>> --
> >>>> Cheers,
> >>>>
> >>>> John B.
> >>>
> >>> Your personal experience should have justified to you to wear body armor when riding a bike. After the first torso bones were broken, I would have thought you would learn to protect that part of the body. Make a mistake once, and its a learning experience. Make the same mistake a second time, and it proves you did not learn anything. I broke my head open in the first accident. After that I learned to use a helmet when riding a bike.
> >> Hmm. I've learned not to crash. Much more effective!
> >>
> >> Of course, I learned that back when I was in my teens.
> >>
> >> Fun fact: It's been documented that helmeted riders crash quite a bit
> >> more often than people riding without helmets. I'm sure I can dig up the
> >> links if people need them. But as one example, in the most notorious bit
> >> of pro-helmet propaganda (Thompson & Rivara, 1989 or so), the percentage
> >> of ER kids in helmets was nearly seven times the percentage of kids
> >> city-wide in helmets.
> >
> > Frank, you have very limited control over crashing a bike. You cannot learn to prevent a car from hitting you as occurred to me a couple of years ago. While crossing an intersection the car next to a woman started turning right and the driver of the car in the lane I was crossing took that to mean the way was clear and accelerated into me. You cannot "learn to not crash".
> Gosh, I guess I've just been really, really lucky.
>
> Just at random!
>
> Year in and year out, for well over 50 years.
>
> What are the odds?
>
> (Two moving on-road falls as an adult cyclist. One when the forks
> suddenly snapped off our custom tandem. The other descending a 20% grade
> gravelly street in winter at walking speed.)

Frank, perhaps you don't remember arguing with me that the automobile was FAR safer than riding a bicycle when I presented the numbers of bicycle accidents each year? Rather than hours of riding you wanted to measure it in miles covered. This is the idealic world of Frank Kragowski - argue about absolutely anything because that is all you have to show for your life.

On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 11:40:54 PM UTC-8, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 11:37:36 AM UTC-6, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 2/19/2022 3:40 AM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 9:00:35 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
> > >> On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 15:27:31 -0800 (PST), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> > >> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 11:38:03 AM UTC-6, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > >>>> There are some signs the world is finally moving away from "NEVER ride
> > >>>> your bike without a helmet!!"
> > >>>>
> > >>>> King County (i.e. Seattle area, where a lot of this started) just
> > >>>> repealed its Mandatory Helmet Law.
> > >>>> https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/king-county-repeals-mandatory-bicycle-helmet-law/
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I note, though, that in the quoted statements, nobody mentioned that
> > >>>> bicycling is actually a very minor source of serious brain injury. One
> > >>>> doctor alludes to his experiences with people with head injuries, but
> > >>>> worries only about _cyclists_ not wearing helmets "every single time."
> > >>>> What about the head injured pedestrians and motorists that outnumber the
> > >>>> head injured cyclists?
> > >>>>
> > >>>> And Bicycling magazine has this article up:
> > >>>> https://www.bicycling.com/culture/a39001523/cars-kill-bike-helmets-dont-change-that/
> > >>>> This is the magazine that once derided and mocked Hollywood celebrities
> > >>>> whose photos showed them riding a bike without a helmet.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Again, the article's imperfect. The author calls for segregated bike
> > >>>> facilities, even though her friend was apparently on a sidewalk when he
> > >>>> was killed.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> But these days, one has to applaud any signs of improved logic.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> --
> > >>>> - Frank Krygowski
> > >>>
> > >>> I've been involved in bike car accidents with and without helmets. My head came out better wearing the helmet than not wearing the helmet. Enough proof for me to keep wearing a helmet and recommend a helmet to others too.
> > >> That is a problem with using personal experiences to justify something
> > >> or another.
> > >>
> > >> I have had two bicycle crashes of sufficient severity to break bones,
> > >> once my pelvis and once my ribs... and in neither case was there even
> > >> a mark on my helmet. No indication that my head had hit the pavement
> > >> at all.
> > >>
> > >> Proof that a helmet does no good at all (:-)
> > >> --
> > >> Cheers,
> > >>
> > >> John B.
> > >
> > > Your personal experience should have justified to you to wear body armor when riding a bike. After the first torso bones were broken, I would have thought you would learn to protect that part of the body. Make a mistake once, and its a learning experience. Make the same mistake a second time, and it proves you did not learn anything. I broke my head open in the first accident. After that I learned to use a helmet when riding a bike.
> > Hmm. I've learned not to crash. Much more effective!
> >
> > Of course, I learned that back when I was in my teens.
> I was only twelve. Beginning of 7th grade junior high. I was going down a hill, no helmet, riding to school. Car pulled out in front of me, I crashed into it, woke up in the hospital with a broken collar bone later in the day I believe. Still have a large scar on my forehead to remind me of that event. 40+ years later. Regarding the "Car pulled out in front of me" statement above, I assume that is what happened. I have zero memory of the event. I assume the car driver told the police or ambulance what happened when they came to the crash sight. It was later that day or the next day before I became conscious again.
> >
> > Fun fact: It's been documented that helmeted riders crash quite a bit
> > more often than people riding without helmets. I'm sure I can dig up the
> > links if people need them. But as one example, in the most notorious bit
> > of pro-helmet propaganda (Thompson & Rivara, 1989 or so), the percentage
> > of ER kids in helmets was nearly seven times the percentage of kids
> > city-wide in helmets.
> >
> > --
> > - Frank Krygowski
> Did anyone take these findings and determine why? Did having a helmet cause the kid to be more reckless when riding? Attempt more dangerous activities because they were wearing a helmet? If the data you cite above is true, I would have thought an army of researchers would have lined up around the block to study it and write papers on it.

Frank is quite willing to lie about it so why ask him? People who wear helmets are those attempting to identify with racers. And like racers they take more chances. So rather than Franks idiotic idea that helmets themselves cause accidents, it is a case of the attitudes of the people who wear them.