People speak with awe about the beauty of Campy's Delta brakes, despite
their functional problems.

To me, these are much prettier:
https://tririg.com/products/omega-one-aero-brake

I'm curious how they work in practice. (Not that I plan on buying a set.)

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Wednesday, February 23, 2022 at 7:41:41 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> People speak with awe about the beauty of Campy's Delta brakes, despite
> their functional problems.
>
> To me, these are much prettier:
> https://tririg.com/products/omega-one-aero-brake
>
> I'm curious how they work in practice. (Not that I plan on buying a set.)
>
>
> --
> - Frank Krygowski

It is a lever like all brakes.

Lou

On Wednesday, February 23, 2022 at 11:08:29 AM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Wednesday, February 23, 2022 at 7:41:41 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > People speak with awe about the beauty of Campy's Delta brakes, despite
> > their functional problems.
> >
> > To me, these are much prettier:
> > https://tririg.com/products/omega-one-aero-brake
> >
> > I'm curious how they work in practice. (Not that I plan on buying a set.)
> >
> >
> > --
> > - Frank Krygowski
> It is a lever like all brakes.

Well, you have to admit that unlike the Campy Delta brake, it has a lot of rim and tire clearance and it is aero as hell. It is impressive and the price is awfully high.

On 2/23/2022 12:41 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> People speak with awe about the beauty of Campy's Delta
> brakes, despite their functional problems.
>
> To me, these are much prettier:
> https://tririg.com/products/omega-one-aero-brake
>
> I'm curious how they work in practice. (Not that I plan on
> buying a set.)
>
>
The Modolo Kronos lives again!
http://www.classicrendezvous.com/images/Italian/modolo/ModoK4L.jpg

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 2/23/2022 2:08 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Wednesday, February 23, 2022 at 7:41:41 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> People speak with awe about the beauty of Campy's Delta brakes, despite
>> their functional problems.
>>
>> To me, these are much prettier:
>> https://tririg.com/products/omega-one-aero-brake
>>
>> I'm curious how they work in practice. (Not that I plan on buying a set.)
>>
>>
>> --
>> - Frank Krygowski
>
> It is a lever like all brakes.

That's astonishingly simplistic!

There certainly are significant differences between various rim brakes.
"All brakes" are not the same at all.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Wednesday, February 23, 2022 at 9:49:27 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 2/23/2022 2:08 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > On Wednesday, February 23, 2022 at 7:41:41 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >> People speak with awe about the beauty of Campy's Delta brakes, despite
> >> their functional problems.
> >>
> >> To me, these are much prettier:
> >> https://tririg.com/products/omega-one-aero-brake
> >>
> >> I'm curious how they work in practice. (Not that I plan on buying a set.)
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> - Frank Krygowski
> >
> > It is a lever like all brakes.
> That's astonishingly simplistic!
>
> There certainly are significant differences between various rim brakes.
> "All brakes" are not the same at all.
>
>
> --
> - Frank Krygowski

Look at a V brake. Cable pulls at one end of the lever at a certain distance from the pivot, the brake pad touches the rim at another distance from the pivot. That is a lever. All other designs are alse levers, only in disguise.

Lou

Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> People speak with awe about the beauty of Campy's Delta brakes, despite
> their functional problems.
>
> To me, these are much prettier:
> https://tririg.com/products/omega-one-aero-brake
>
> I'm curious how they work in practice. (Not that I plan on buying a set.)
>
>
seem well regarded, comparable to other good dual pivots apparently which
considering how poor TT bikes/hill climb brakes can be, that’s high praise!

Reminds me of Wet days in central london years back listening to panic
braking behind you, as folks attempt to stop on carbon rims…

Roger Merriman.

On 2/23/2022 3:28 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 2/23/2022 12:41 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> People speak with awe about the beauty of Campy's Delta
>> brakes, despite their functional problems.
>>
>> To me, these are much prettier:
>> https://tririg.com/products/omega-one-aero-brake
>>
>> I'm curious how they work in practice. (Not that I plan on
>> buying a set.)
>>
>>
> The Modolo Kronos lives again!
> http://www.classicrendezvous.com/images/Italian/modolo/ModoK4L.jpg

Did the Kronos use the same wedge cam action as this brake seems to?

The Omega seems to be a highly streamlined copy of this mechanism:
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/canti-rollercam.html

I gather the Kronos was pretty weak, but I don't think Rollercams had
that problem. This Omega is aimed at time triallers, so it might be
pretty weak too, which might be OK for that application.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Lou Holtman <lou.holtman@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wednesday, February 23, 2022 at 9:49:27 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 2/23/2022 2:08 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, February 23, 2022 at 7:41:41 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> People speak with awe about the beauty of Campy's Delta brakes, despite
>>>> their functional problems.
>>>>
>>>> To me, these are much prettier:
>>>> https://tririg.com/products/omega-one-aero-brake
>>>>
>>>> I'm curious how they work in practice. (Not that I plan on buying a set.)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>>
>>> It is a lever like all brakes.
>> That's astonishingly simplistic!
>>
>> There certainly are significant differences between various rim brakes.
>> "All brakes" are not the same at all.
>>
>>
>> --
>> - Frank Krygowski
>
> Look at a V brake. Cable pulls at one end of the lever at a certain
> distance from the pivot, the brake pad touches the rim at another
> distance from the pivot. That is a lever. All other designs are alse
> levers, only in disguise.
>
> Lou
>
True but for example difference between dual pivots and V brakes vs CX
canti for example quite a gap in performance.

And even then some dual pivots work better than others, you can buy
expensive light brakes that barely work, for the hill climb bike.

Roger Merriman

On 2/23/2022 3:58 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Wednesday, February 23, 2022 at 9:49:27 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 2/23/2022 2:08 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, February 23, 2022 at 7:41:41 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> People speak with awe about the beauty of Campy's Delta brakes, despite
>>>> their functional problems.
>>>>
>>>> To me, these are much prettier:
>>>> https://tririg.com/products/omega-one-aero-brake
>>>>
>>>> I'm curious how they work in practice. (Not that I plan on buying a set.)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>>
>>> It is a lever like all brakes.
>> That's astonishingly simplistic!
>>
>> There certainly are significant differences between various rim brakes.
>> "All brakes" are not the same at all.
>>
>>
>> --
>> - Frank Krygowski
>
> Look at a V brake. Cable pulls at one end of the lever at a certain distance from the pivot, the brake pad touches the rim at another distance from the pivot. That is a lever. All other designs are alse levers, only in disguise.

Even if we accept "It is [just] a lever", there are great differences in
brakes' performance and practicality. Rigidity, ease of adjustment,
mechanical advantage, susceptibility to clogging or sticking, quick
release operation (if present), ease of maintenance and more all differ
from design to design.

Also, if you dig into bicycle history, you can find brakes that are
_not_ levers. There have been brake designs in which a cable acted on a
cam, sliding a brake shoe linearly toward the rim. Try _The Data Book_,
or browsing a bicycle museum.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Wednesday, February 23, 2022 at 10:41:41 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> People speak with awe about the beauty of Campy's Delta brakes, despite
> their functional problems.
>
> To me, these are much prettier:
> https://tririg.com/products/omega-one-aero-brake
>
> I'm curious how they work in practice. (Not that I plan on buying a set.)

These look like a dressed up rehash of the old Shimano AX or Dia-Compe rollercam brakes. From the cam profile seen in the photos, this has some initial nonlinearity to allow extra pad clearance at rest to be taken up quickly. As long as it's installed with enough initial pad clearance, this caliper should be pretty linear in use, not suffering from the variable geometry of Campy's Delta brakes. The rollers look to be awfully small, so I wonder how well they'll hold up over time and how much unwanted friction they'll add..

Price, though a little high, doesn't seem outrageous to me considering the limited quantities I'd expect them to be producing.

-Luns

On 2/23/2022 3:02 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 2/23/2022 3:28 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 2/23/2022 12:41 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> People speak with awe about the beauty of Campy's Delta
>>> brakes, despite their functional problems.
>>>
>>> To me, these are much prettier:
>>> https://tririg.com/products/omega-one-aero-brake
>>>
>>> I'm curious how they work in practice. (Not that I plan on
>>> buying a set.)
>>>
>>>
>> The Modolo Kronos lives again!
>> http://www.classicrendezvous.com/images/Italian/modolo/ModoK4L.jpg
>>
>
> Did the Kronos use the same wedge cam action as this brake
> seems to?
>
> The Omega seems to be a highly streamlined copy of this
> mechanism:
> https://www.sheldonbrown.com/canti-rollercam.html
>
> I gather the Kronos was pretty weak, but I don't think
> Rollercams had that problem. This Omega is aimed at time
> triallers, so it might be pretty weak too, which might be OK
> for that application.
>
>

Here's the other (not so finished) Modolo version diagram:
https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/560f1941e4b0e75bc493a695/1443833683411-BZFW3IF4Y3IOKPSCAXA9/Modolo-Orion.jpg?format=750w

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 2/23/2022 3:08 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> Lou Holtman <lou.holtman@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Wednesday, February 23, 2022 at 9:49:27 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 2/23/2022 2:08 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>> On Wednesday, February 23, 2022 at 7:41:41 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>> People speak with awe about the beauty of Campy's Delta brakes, despite
>>>>> their functional problems.
>>>>>
>>>>> To me, these are much prettier:
>>>>> https://tririg.com/products/omega-one-aero-brake
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm curious how they work in practice. (Not that I plan on buying a set.)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>>>
>>>> It is a lever like all brakes.
>>> That's astonishingly simplistic!
>>>
>>> There certainly are significant differences between various rim brakes.
>>> "All brakes" are not the same at all.
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>
>> Look at a V brake. Cable pulls at one end of the lever at a certain
>> distance from the pivot, the brake pad touches the rim at another
>> distance from the pivot. That is a lever. All other designs are alse
>> levers, only in disguise.
>>
>> Lou
>>
> True but for example difference between dual pivots and V brakes vs CX
> canti for example quite a gap in performance.
>
> And even then some dual pivots work better than others, you can buy
> expensive light brakes that barely work, for the hill climb bike.
>
> Roger Merriman
>

Lou makes a very good point.
The differences you note are differences in
dimensions/leverage (or in some cases progressive action)
not basic principle.

For example a Weinmann 500 with standard road lever is a
perfectly acceptable brake. Same materials, same small
parts, same design ultra long Weinmann 1080 is a sloppy
noodle in use. Distance pivot to shoe is unfavorable.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Wednesday, February 23, 2022 at 12:29:00 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> On 2/23/2022 12:41 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > People speak with awe about the beauty of Campy's Delta
> > brakes, despite their functional problems.
> >
> > To me, these are much prettier:
> > https://tririg.com/products/omega-one-aero-brake
> >
> > I'm curious how they work in practice. (Not that I plan on
> > buying a set.)
> >
> >
> The Modolo Kronos lives again!
> http://www.classicrendezvous.com/images/Italian/modolo/ModoK4L.jpg

https://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/bop/d/milpitas-campagnolo-record-delta-brake/7449419845.html

On 2/23/2022 4:18 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 2/23/2022 3:08 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> Lou Holtman <lou.holtman@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, February 23, 2022 at 9:49:27 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski
>>> wrote:
>>>> On 2/23/2022 2:08 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>>> On Wednesday, February 23, 2022 at 7:41:41 PM UTC+1, Frank
>>>>> Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>> People speak with awe about the beauty of Campy's Delta brakes,
>>>>>> despite
>>>>>> their functional problems.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To me, these are much prettier:
>>>>>> https://tririg.com/products/omega-one-aero-brake
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm curious how they work in practice. (Not that I plan on buying
>>>>>> a set.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>>>>
>>>>> It is a lever like all brakes.
>>>> That's astonishingly simplistic!
>>>>
>>>> There certainly are significant differences between various rim brakes.
>>>> "All brakes" are not the same at all.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>>
>>> Look at a V brake. Cable pulls at one end of the lever at a certain
>>> distance from the pivot, the brake pad touches the rim at another
>>> distance from the pivot. That is a lever. All other designs are alse
>>> levers, only in disguise.
>>>
>>> Lou
>>>
>> True but for example difference between dual pivots and V brakes vs CX
>> canti for example quite a gap in performance.
>>
>> And even then some dual pivots work better than others, you can buy
>> expensive light brakes that barely work, for the hill climb bike.
>>
>> Roger Merriman
>>
>
> Lou makes a very good point.
> The differences you note are differences in dimensions/leverage (or in
> some cases progressive action) not basic principle.
>
> For example a Weinmann 500 with standard road lever is a perfectly
> acceptable brake. Same materials, same small parts, same design ultra
> long Weinmann 1080 is a sloppy noodle in use. Distance pivot to shoe is
> unfavorable.

There are brakes with significant differences in basic principle. Campy
Delta is the obvious example, but there have been others. Even among
brakes as simple as cantilevers, there are significant differences
between classic L-shaped ones and modern lower profile ones. Then there
are oddities (by our standards) like rod brakes that pull up on the rim,
self-energizing brakes, etc.

As Luns Tee noted, the rollercam style's performance depends heavily on
the profile of the wedge cam. Heck, if a person were perverse enough,
one could design a cam that would have some of the same problems as the
Campy Delta.

--
- Frank Krygowski

AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> On 2/23/2022 3:08 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> Lou Holtman <lou.holtman@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, February 23, 2022 at 9:49:27 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 2/23/2022 2:08 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>>> On Wednesday, February 23, 2022 at 7:41:41 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>> People speak with awe about the beauty of Campy's Delta brakes, despite
>>>>>> their functional problems.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To me, these are much prettier:
>>>>>> https://tririg.com/products/omega-one-aero-brake
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm curious how they work in practice. (Not that I plan on buying a set.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>>>>
>>>>> It is a lever like all brakes.
>>>> That's astonishingly simplistic!
>>>>
>>>> There certainly are significant differences between various rim brakes.
>>>> "All brakes" are not the same at all.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>>
>>> Look at a V brake. Cable pulls at one end of the lever at a certain
>>> distance from the pivot, the brake pad touches the rim at another
>>> distance from the pivot. That is a lever. All other designs are alse
>>> levers, only in disguise.
>>>
>>> Lou
>>>
>> True but for example difference between dual pivots and V brakes vs CX
>> canti for example quite a gap in performance.
>>
>> And even then some dual pivots work better than others, you can buy
>> expensive light brakes that barely work, for the hill climb bike.
>>
>> Roger Merriman
>>
>
> Lou makes a very good point.
> The differences you note are differences in
> dimensions/leverage (or in some cases progressive action)
> not basic principle.
>
Not really sure what Lou is arguing to be honest since he notes the
performance of the V Brake, but it’s fairly clear that different brakes
have which as he notes are all levers, but performance will differ.

> For example a Weinmann 500 with standard road lever is a
> perfectly acceptable brake. Same materials, same small
> parts, same design ultra long Weinmann 1080 is a sloppy
> noodle in use. Distance pivot to shoe is unfavorable.
>
Even essentially similar designs will differ, the difference between a high
end V brake and the cheap plastic V brake things on BSO to take to extreme.

Roger

On Wednesday, February 23, 2022 at 10:59:49 PM UTC+1, Roger Merriman wrote:
> AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> > On 2/23/2022 3:08 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> >> Lou Holtman <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> On Wednesday, February 23, 2022 at 9:49:27 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>> On 2/23/2022 2:08 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> >>>>> On Wednesday, February 23, 2022 at 7:41:41 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>>>> People speak with awe about the beauty of Campy's Delta brakes, despite
> >>>>>> their functional problems.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> To me, these are much prettier:
> >>>>>> https://tririg.com/products/omega-one-aero-brake
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I'm curious how they work in practice. (Not that I plan on buying a set.)
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>>> - Frank Krygowski
> >>>>>
> >>>>> It is a lever like all brakes.
> >>>> That's astonishingly simplistic!
> >>>>
> >>>> There certainly are significant differences between various rim brakes.
> >>>> "All brakes" are not the same at all.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> - Frank Krygowski
> >>>
> >>> Look at a V brake. Cable pulls at one end of the lever at a certain
> >>> distance from the pivot, the brake pad touches the rim at another
> >>> distance from the pivot. That is a lever. All other designs are alse
> >>> levers, only in disguise.
> >>>
> >>> Lou
> >>>
> >> True but for example difference between dual pivots and V brakes vs CX
> >> canti for example quite a gap in performance.
> >>
> >> And even then some dual pivots work better than others, you can buy
> >> expensive light brakes that barely work, for the hill climb bike.
> >>
> >> Roger Merriman
> >>
> >
> > Lou makes a very good point.
> > The differences you note are differences in
> > dimensions/leverage (or in some cases progressive action)
> > not basic principle.
> >
> Not really sure what Lou is arguing to be honest since he notes the
> performance of the V Brake, but it’s fairly clear that different brakes
> have which as he notes are all levers, but performance will differ.
> > For example a Weinmann 500 with standard road lever is a
> > perfectly acceptable brake. Same materials, same small
> > parts, same design ultra long Weinmann 1080 is a sloppy
> > noodle in use. Distance pivot to shoe is unfavorable.
> >
> Even essentially similar designs will differ, the difference between a high
> end V brake and the cheap plastic V brake things on BSO to take to extreme.
>
>
> Roger

Different designs make different choices but basically they are just levers.. Frank asked how the mentioned brakes work. I answered they are levers. I’m arguing nothing. Lets not make this more complicated than it is. They look nice and aero. Probably that was one of the requirements when they designed them.

Lou

On Wednesday, February 23, 2022 at 1:59:49 PM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
> AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

> > Lou makes a very good point.
> > The differences you note are differences in
> > dimensions/leverage (or in some cases progressive action)
> > not basic principle.
> >
> Not really sure what Lou is arguing to be honest since he notes the
> performance of the V Brake, but it’s fairly clear that different brakes
> have which as he notes are all levers, but performance will differ.

As I see it, Lou's point is that any mechanical brake caliper can be boiled down to some mechanical advantage from cable pull to brake pad. While this is true, this is a complete picture only in the land of massless inelastic ropes and frictionless pulleys, i.e. high school physics class.

In reality, parts have flex, and brake pads will wear, both of which will affect the geometry. That in turn will affect the mechanical advantage of different brakes to differing degrees, with Campy Delta being probably the worst offender, and V-brakes and single-pivot calipers close to ideal. Mechanical advantage aside, when you account for flex, the ratio of cable pull to brake pad motion isn't the same as the ratio of cable tension to normal force at the brake pad, so you can have different calipers with identical mechanical advantage feeling very different.

And all of that is ignoring the true purpose of a brake caliper! The analysis of cable pull to normal force on the brake pads is all fine and dandy, but this is a complete picture only for squeezing the brake lever for a bike on a workstand. What we really care about from the brake is the braking force we get from squeezing the brake pads on a moving bike! This braking force adds its share of flex, and loading on the brake pivots which in turn affects pivot friction in ways you won't see on the workstand, and this affects you ability to modulate the brake. Also, flex in the brake arms can affect where the pressure centre of the brake pad is, which in turn can affect the flex, ad infinitum, giving brake chatter or squeal.

So yes, the simple view is that all levers are equal. But some levers are more equal than others!

-Luns

On 2/23/2022 6:02 PM, Luns Tee wrote:
> On Wednesday, February 23, 2022 at 1:59:49 PM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>>> Lou makes a very good point.
>>> The differences you note are differences in
>>> dimensions/leverage (or in some cases progressive action)
>>> not basic principle.
>>>
>> Not really sure what Lou is arguing to be honest since he notes the
>> performance of the V Brake, but it’s fairly clear that different brakes
>> have which as he notes are all levers, but performance will differ.
>
> As I see it, Lou's point is that any mechanical brake caliper can be boiled down to some mechanical advantage from cable pull to brake pad. While this is true, this is a complete picture only in the land of massless inelastic ropes and frictionless pulleys, i.e. high school physics class.
>
> In reality, parts have flex, and brake pads will wear, both of which will affect the geometry. That in turn will affect the mechanical advantage of different brakes to differing degrees, with Campy Delta being probably the worst offender, and V-brakes and single-pivot calipers close to ideal. Mechanical advantage aside, when you account for flex, the ratio of cable pull to brake pad motion isn't the same as the ratio of cable tension to normal force at the brake pad, so you can have different calipers with identical mechanical advantage feeling very different.
>
> And all of that is ignoring the true purpose of a brake caliper! The analysis of cable pull to normal force on the brake pads is all fine and dandy, but this is a complete picture only for squeezing the brake lever for a bike on a workstand. What we really care about from the brake is the braking force we get from squeezing the brake pads on a moving bike! This braking force adds its share of flex, and loading on the brake pivots which in turn affects pivot friction in ways you won't see on the workstand, and this affects you ability to modulate the brake. Also, flex in the brake arms can affect where the pressure centre of the brake pad is, which in turn can affect the flex, ad infinitum, giving brake chatter or squeal.
>
> So yes, the simple view is that all levers are equal. But some levers are more equal than others!
>
> -Luns

Very nicely said.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 2/23/2022 4:13 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 2/23/2022 3:02 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 2/23/2022 3:28 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 2/23/2022 12:41 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> People speak with awe about the beauty of Campy's Delta
>>>> brakes, despite their functional problems.
>>>>
>>>> To me, these are much prettier:
>>>> https://tririg.com/products/omega-one-aero-brake
>>>>
>>>> I'm curious how they work in practice. (Not that I plan on
>>>> buying a set.)
>>>>
>>>>
>>> The Modolo Kronos lives again!
>>> http://www.classicrendezvous.com/images/Italian/modolo/ModoK4L.jpg
>>>
>>
>> Did the Kronos use the same wedge cam action as this brake
>> seems to?
>>
>> The Omega seems to be a highly streamlined copy of this
>> mechanism:
>> https://www.sheldonbrown.com/canti-rollercam.html
>>
>> I gather the Kronos was pretty weak, but I don't think
>> Rollercams had that problem. This Omega is aimed at time
>> triallers, so it might be pretty weak too, which might be OK
>> for that application.
>>
>>
>
> Here's the other (not so finished) Modolo version diagram:
> https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/560f1941e4b0e75bc493a695/1443833683411-BZFW3IF4Y3IOKPSCAXA9/Modolo-Orion.jpg?format=750w

That assembly is not easy to visualize, especially since I don't speak
Italian!

I don't see any thing like a roller cam. And Google translates numbers
23 & 24 as "toggle levers." That makes me suspect that they slope upward
from the cable attachment point to the top of the brake arms, in a sort
of V shape; and that the cable pulling upward on the bottom of the V
causes those arms to move toward horizontal.

If so, it would have the same geometry problems of the Delta - a rapidly
increasing mechanical advantage, which is probably the direct opposite
of what's needed for what cyclists call "progressive" braking.

But I'm not sure. And I gather Kronos brakes are so rare that nobody
here will have seen the inside of the mechanism. Please correct me if
I'm wrong on any of this.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Wed, 23 Feb 2022 13:41:37 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>People speak with awe about the beauty of Campy's Delta brakes, despite
>their functional problems.
>
>To me, these are much prettier:
>https://tririg.com/products/omega-one-aero-brake
>
>I'm curious how they work in practice. (Not that I plan on buying a set.)

Well you should. The advert assures the potential buyer that the brake
will even make the bike faster (:-)

But faster then what? Andrew's Fixie with no brakes at all?
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 2/23/2022 3:59 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> On 2/23/2022 3:08 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>> Lou Holtman <lou.holtman@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Wednesday, February 23, 2022 at 9:49:27 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>> On 2/23/2022 2:08 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>>>> On Wednesday, February 23, 2022 at 7:41:41 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>> People speak with awe about the beauty of Campy's Delta brakes, despite
>>>>>>> their functional problems.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> To me, these are much prettier:
>>>>>>> https://tririg.com/products/omega-one-aero-brake
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm curious how they work in practice. (Not that I plan on buying a set.)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It is a lever like all brakes.
>>>>> That's astonishingly simplistic!
>>>>>
>>>>> There certainly are significant differences between various rim brakes.
>>>>> "All brakes" are not the same at all.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>>>
>>>> Look at a V brake. Cable pulls at one end of the lever at a certain
>>>> distance from the pivot, the brake pad touches the rim at another
>>>> distance from the pivot. That is a lever. All other designs are alse
>>>> levers, only in disguise.
>>>>
>>>> Lou
>>>>
>>> True but for example difference between dual pivots and V brakes vs CX
>>> canti for example quite a gap in performance.
>>>
>>> And even then some dual pivots work better than others, you can buy
>>> expensive light brakes that barely work, for the hill climb bike.
>>>
>>> Roger Merriman
>>>
>>
>> Lou makes a very good point.
>> The differences you note are differences in
>> dimensions/leverage (or in some cases progressive action)
>> not basic principle.
>>
> Not really sure what Lou is arguing to be honest since he notes the
> performance of the V Brake, but it’s fairly clear that different brakes
> have which as he notes are all levers, but performance will differ.
>
>> For example a Weinmann 500 with standard road lever is a
>> perfectly acceptable brake. Same materials, same small
>> parts, same design ultra long Weinmann 1080 is a sloppy
>> noodle in use. Distance pivot to shoe is unfavorable.
>>
> Even essentially similar designs will differ, the difference between a high
> end V brake and the cheap plastic V brake things on BSO to take to extreme.
>
>
> Roger
>

Maybe for crappy return springs or high friction from
substandard cables but the geometry is the same. p.s. some
BSO linear brakes are steel with a vinyl coating- as stiff
or stiffer than a lightweight aluminum arm.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 2/23/2022 7:06 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Wed, 23 Feb 2022 13:41:37 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> People speak with awe about the beauty of Campy's Delta brakes, despite
>> their functional problems.
>>
>> To me, these are much prettier:
>> https://tririg.com/products/omega-one-aero-brake
>>
>> I'm curious how they work in practice. (Not that I plan on buying a set.)
>
> Well you should. The advert assures the potential buyer that the brake
> will even make the bike faster (:-)
>
> But faster then what? Andrew's Fixie with no brakes at all?
>

I ride on public roads and have a front brake. Always have.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Wed, 23 Feb 2022 19:50:51 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 2/23/2022 7:06 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Wed, 23 Feb 2022 13:41:37 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> People speak with awe about the beauty of Campy's Delta brakes, despite
>>> their functional problems.
>>>
>>> To me, these are much prettier:
>>> https://tririg.com/products/omega-one-aero-brake
>>>
>>> I'm curious how they work in practice. (Not that I plan on buying a set.)
>>
>> Well you should. The advert assures the potential buyer that the brake
>> will even make the bike faster (:-)
>>
>> But faster then what? Andrew's Fixie with no brakes at all?
>>
>
>I ride on public roads and have a front brake. Always have.

Well, not a pure Fixie then (:-)

I was actually run into by a guy on a pure Fixie, no brakes at all,
and I was on my bike and stopped at a stoplight. We got to talking and
it turned out he was a Bike Messenger and apparently rode daily in
Bangkok traffic and frankly I wondered how he did it. Maybe dragged
his feet a lot (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Wednesday, February 23, 2022 at 6:58:19 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
> On Wed, 23 Feb 2022 19:50:51 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >I ride on public roads and have a front brake. Always have.
> Well, not a pure Fixie then (:-)
>
> I was actually run into by a guy on a pure Fixie, no brakes at all,
> and I was on my bike and stopped at a stoplight. We got to talking and
> it turned out he was a Bike Messenger and apparently rode daily in
> Bangkok traffic and frankly I wondered how he did it. Maybe dragged
> his feet a lot (:-)

I've (sadly) never ridden a fixie, but one of my kids has, at Alpenrose.

But as to "how he did it": I once asked a young guy on a fixie (in Washington DC) to show me
his stopping technique. It was quite acrobatic, and consisted of hopping his rear wheel upward
and sideways, skidding to a stop sideways. I was impressed by the athleticism. But I doubt he
got more than a couple hundred miles out of a rear tire.

- Frank Krygowski