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tech / rec.crafts.metalworking / Legal definitions of homicide in the US and applicability to the accidental shooting on the 'Rust' movie set

SubjectAuthor
* Legal definitions of homicide in the US and applicability to the accidental shooJoe Gwinn
+* Re: Legal definitions of homicide in the US and applicability to the accidental Jim Wilkins
|`- Re: Legal definitions of homicide in the US and applicability to the accidental Joe Gwinn
`* Re: Legal definitions of homicide in the US and applicability to the accidental randy333
 +- Re: Legal definitions of homicide in the US and applicability to the accidental Jim Wilkins
 `* Re: Legal definitions of homicide in the US and applicability to the accidental Joe Gwinn
  `* Re: Legal definitions of homicide in the US and applicability to the accidental randy333
   +- Re: Legal definitions of homicide in the US and applicability to the accidental Joe Gwinn
   `- Re: Legal definitions of homicide in the US and applicability to the accidental Jim Wilkins

1
Legal definitions of homicide in the US and applicability to the accidental shooting on the 'Rust' movie set

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From: joegw...@comcast.net (Joe Gwinn)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Legal definitions of homicide in the US and applicability to the accidental shooting on the 'Rust' movie set
Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2021 17:19:47 -0400
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 by: Joe Gwinn - Fri, 5 Nov 2021 21:19 UTC

In the US, there is no single set of terms for the kinds of homicide.
The federal government has one set, and each state has its own. They
are very similar in principle, but are not identical, and may be named
and worded quite differently.

Most of US law evolved from English Law, except for the Louisiana
Purchase states, which instead evolved from the Napoleonic Code of
France. New Mexico law likely evolved from English Law.

Not all kinds of homicide are considered murder. The main kinds (by
whatever name) are as follows (by some old definition from
California?):

First-degree Murder, for which one could be executed. Requires the
action and the intent to kill someone, with success. It is not
necessary to have had a specific person in mind. The classic examples
are shooting into a crowd, or setting off a bomb - it's quite likely
that someone will die, no matter who was unlucky that day.

It's Attempted Murder if intended but no success - it's the thought
that counts.

Second-degree Murder, also known in some states as negligent homicide.
Requires action, but no intent to kill, but with success. This is the
typical charge when an automobile accident leads to a death. Another
example is an industrial accident.

There is no such thing as attempted second-degree murder, for lack of
murderous intent.

Accidents leading to injury but not death are handled by Tort Law, not
Criminal Law, unless it is proven that the "accident" causing
crippling was in fact intentional, leading to a charge of injury with
intent to maim or the like.

There are some kinds of intentional homicide that are not crimes. The
classic example is self-defense.

In the case of Alex Baldwin shooting two people, killing one of them,
he had no intent to even fire a live round, never mind killing anyone,
so it is unclear that he will be charged with anything criminal.

The Armorer and the Assistant Director may have been sloppy (this is
disputed), but even if true, that's at most second-degree murder. I'd
hazard that the Assistant Director is the likely focus, not the
24-year old Armorer, who reports to that Assistant Director.

If it turns out that someone did slip a live (meaning with a lead
bullet and powder) round into the pistol that Alex Baldwin later used
on set, whoever meddled with that pistol will likely be charged with
first-degree murder, unless the law cannot figure out and prove beyond
a reasonable doubt who did it.

Joe Gwinn

Re: Legal definitions of homicide in the US and applicability to the accidental shooting on the 'Rust' movie set

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From: muratla...@gmail.com (Jim Wilkins)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: Legal definitions of homicide in the US and applicability to the accidental shooting on the 'Rust' movie set
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2021 17:34:00 -0400
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 by: Jim Wilkins - Fri, 5 Nov 2021 21:34 UTC

"Joe Gwinn" wrote in message
news:gg5bogpdsi9f84qtg0epvpn32vmhil563i@4ax.com...
....
If it turns out that someone did slip a live (meaning with a lead
bullet and powder) round into the pistol that Alex Baldwin later used
on set, whoever meddled with that pistol will likely be charged with
first-degree murder, unless the law cannot figure out and prove beyond
a reasonable doubt who did it.

Joe Gwinn

---------------------

https://www.westernstageprops.com/5-in-1-Brass-Blank-Ammunition-p/sa13b.htm

Re: Legal definitions of homicide in the US and applicability to the accidental shooting on the 'Rust' movie set

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From: joegw...@comcast.net (Joe Gwinn)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: Legal definitions of homicide in the US and applicability to the accidental shooting on the 'Rust' movie set
Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2021 11:55:04 -0400
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 by: Joe Gwinn - Sat, 6 Nov 2021 15:55 UTC

On Fri, 5 Nov 2021 17:34:00 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
<muratlanne@gmail.com> wrote:

>"Joe Gwinn" wrote in message
>news:gg5bogpdsi9f84qtg0epvpn32vmhil563i@4ax.com...
>...
>If it turns out that someone did slip a live (meaning with a lead
>bullet and powder) round into the pistol that Alex Baldwin later used
>on set, whoever meddled with that pistol will likely be charged with
>first-degree murder, unless the law cannot figure out and prove beyond
>a reasonable doubt who did it.
>
>Joe Gwinn
>
>---------------------
>
> <https://www.westernstageprops.com/5-in-1-Brass-Blank-Ammunition-p/sa13b.htm?

Makes sense. But we don't yet know what was in fact being used on the
set.

Joe Gwinn

Re: Legal definitions of homicide in the US and applicability to the accidental shooting on the 'Rust' movie set

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From: randy...@aol.com
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Subject: Re: Legal definitions of homicide in the US and applicability to the accidental shooting on the 'Rust' movie set
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 by: randy...@aol.com - Mon, 8 Nov 2021 16:42 UTC

On Fri, 05 Nov 2021 17:19:47 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
wrote:

>In the US, there is no single set of terms for the kinds of homicide.
>The federal government has one set, and each state has its own. They
>are very similar in principle, but are not identical, and may be named
>and worded quite differently.
>
>Most of US law evolved from English Law, except for the Louisiana
>Purchase states, which instead evolved from the Napoleonic Code of
>France. New Mexico law likely evolved from English Law.
>
>Not all kinds of homicide are considered murder. The main kinds (by
>whatever name) are as follows (by some old definition from
>California?):
>
>First-degree Murder, for which one could be executed. Requires the
>action and the intent to kill someone, with success. It is not
>necessary to have had a specific person in mind. The classic examples
>are shooting into a crowd, or setting off a bomb - it's quite likely
>that someone will die, no matter who was unlucky that day.
>
>It's Attempted Murder if intended but no success - it's the thought
>that counts.
>
>Second-degree Murder, also known in some states as negligent homicide.
>Requires action, but no intent to kill, but with success. This is the
>typical charge when an automobile accident leads to a death. Another
>example is an industrial accident.
>
>There is no such thing as attempted second-degree murder, for lack of
>murderous intent.
>
>Accidents leading to injury but not death are handled by Tort Law, not
>Criminal Law, unless it is proven that the "accident" causing
>crippling was in fact intentional, leading to a charge of injury with
>intent to maim or the like.
>
>There are some kinds of intentional homicide that are not crimes. The
>classic example is self-defense.
>
>In the case of Alex Baldwin shooting two people, killing one of them,
>he had no intent to even fire a live round, never mind killing anyone,
>so it is unclear that he will be charged with anything criminal.
>
>The Armorer and the Assistant Director may have been sloppy (this is
>disputed), but even if true, that's at most second-degree murder. I'd
>hazard that the Assistant Director is the likely focus, not the
>24-year old Armorer, who reports to that Assistant Director.
>
>If it turns out that someone did slip a live (meaning with a lead
>bullet and powder) round into the pistol that Alex Baldwin later used
>on set, whoever meddled with that pistol will likely be charged with
>first-degree murder, unless the law cannot figure out and prove beyond
>a reasonable doubt who did it.
>
>Joe Gwinn

What I find totally unbelievable is....

1.Why there was a real gun on set? It was a real gun, not a "prop"
gun.

2. Why was there live ammo on set?

Randy

Re: Legal definitions of homicide in the US and applicability to the accidental shooting on the 'Rust' movie set

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From: muratla...@gmail.com (Jim Wilkins)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: Legal definitions of homicide in the US and applicability to the accidental shooting on the 'Rust' movie set
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 by: Jim Wilkins - Mon, 8 Nov 2021 17:44 UTC

What I find totally unbelievable is....

1.Why there was a real gun on set? It was a real gun, not a "prop"
gun.

2. Why was there live ammo on set?

Randy

------------------

https://ascmag.com/blog/filmmakers-forum/filming-with-firearms

"...we use everything from fake firearms, designed to look acceptable from a
distance, to real firearms that both look authentic and can fire blanks when
desired. "

"CGI may be used for close-range gunshots that could not be safely achieved
otherwise, but yes, even with all the advancements in visual effects and
computer-generated imagery, we still fire guns with blanks. The reason is
simple: We want the scene to look as real as possible. We want the story and
characters to be believable. Blanks help contribute to the authenticity of a
scene in ways that cannot be achieved in any other manner."

Re: Legal definitions of homicide in the US and applicability to the accidental shooting on the 'Rust' movie set

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From: joegw...@comcast.net (Joe Gwinn)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: Legal definitions of homicide in the US and applicability to the accidental shooting on the 'Rust' movie set
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 by: Joe Gwinn - Mon, 8 Nov 2021 21:45 UTC

On Mon, 08 Nov 2021 11:42:52 -0500, randy333@aol.com wrote:

>On Fri, 05 Nov 2021 17:19:47 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
>wrote:
>
>>In the US, there is no single set of terms for the kinds of homicide.
>>The federal government has one set, and each state has its own. They
>>are very similar in principle, but are not identical, and may be named
>>and worded quite differently.
>>
>>Most of US law evolved from English Law, except for the Louisiana
>>Purchase states, which instead evolved from the Napoleonic Code of
>>France. New Mexico law likely evolved from English Law.
>>
>>Not all kinds of homicide are considered murder. The main kinds (by
>>whatever name) are as follows (by some old definition from
>>California?):
>>
>>First-degree Murder, for which one could be executed. Requires the
>>action and the intent to kill someone, with success. It is not
>>necessary to have had a specific person in mind. The classic examples
>>are shooting into a crowd, or setting off a bomb - it's quite likely
>>that someone will die, no matter who was unlucky that day.
>>
>>It's Attempted Murder if intended but no success - it's the thought
>>that counts.
>>
>>Second-degree Murder, also known in some states as negligent homicide.
>>Requires action, but no intent to kill, but with success. This is the
>>typical charge when an automobile accident leads to a death. Another
>>example is an industrial accident.
>>
>>There is no such thing as attempted second-degree murder, for lack of
>>murderous intent.
>>
>>Accidents leading to injury but not death are handled by Tort Law, not
>>Criminal Law, unless it is proven that the "accident" causing
>>crippling was in fact intentional, leading to a charge of injury with
>>intent to maim or the like.
>>
>>There are some kinds of intentional homicide that are not crimes. The
>>classic example is self-defense.
>>
>>In the case of Alex Baldwin shooting two people, killing one of them,
>>he had no intent to even fire a live round, never mind killing anyone,
>>so it is unclear that he will be charged with anything criminal.
>>
>>The Armorer and the Assistant Director may have been sloppy (this is
>>disputed), but even if true, that's at most second-degree murder. I'd
>>hazard that the Assistant Director is the likely focus, not the
>>24-year old Armorer, who reports to that Assistant Director.
>>
>>If it turns out that someone did slip a live (meaning with a lead
>>bullet and powder) round into the pistol that Alex Baldwin later used
>>on set, whoever meddled with that pistol will likely be charged with
>>first-degree murder, unless the law cannot figure out and prove beyond
>>a reasonable doubt who did it.
>>
>>Joe Gwinn
>
>
>What I find totally unbelievable is....
>
>1.Why there was a real gun on set? It was a real gun, not a "prop"
>gun.

Real guns look realistic in close shots. Prop guns look OK only at a
distance.

>2. Why was there live ammo on set?

That is the big question. A lot of people with badges are digging
into that. Stay tuned.

Joe Gwinn

Re: Legal definitions of homicide in the US and applicability to the accidental shooting on the 'Rust' movie set

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From: randy...@aol.com
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Subject: Re: Legal definitions of homicide in the US and applicability to the accidental shooting on the 'Rust' movie set
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 by: randy...@aol.com - Thu, 11 Nov 2021 14:21 UTC

On Mon, 08 Nov 2021 16:45:53 -0500, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
wrote:

>On Mon, 08 Nov 2021 11:42:52 -0500, randy333@aol.com wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 05 Nov 2021 17:19:47 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>In the US, there is no single set of terms for the kinds of homicide.
>>>The federal government has one set, and each state has its own. They
>>>are very similar in principle, but are not identical, and may be named
>>>and worded quite differently.
>>>
>>>Most of US law evolved from English Law, except for the Louisiana
>>>Purchase states, which instead evolved from the Napoleonic Code of
>>>France. New Mexico law likely evolved from English Law.
>>>
>>>Not all kinds of homicide are considered murder. The main kinds (by
>>>whatever name) are as follows (by some old definition from
>>>California?):
>>>
>>>First-degree Murder, for which one could be executed. Requires the
>>>action and the intent to kill someone, with success. It is not
>>>necessary to have had a specific person in mind. The classic examples
>>>are shooting into a crowd, or setting off a bomb - it's quite likely
>>>that someone will die, no matter who was unlucky that day.
>>>
>>>It's Attempted Murder if intended but no success - it's the thought
>>>that counts.
>>>
>>>Second-degree Murder, also known in some states as negligent homicide.
>>>Requires action, but no intent to kill, but with success. This is the
>>>typical charge when an automobile accident leads to a death. Another
>>>example is an industrial accident.
>>>
>>>There is no such thing as attempted second-degree murder, for lack of
>>>murderous intent.
>>>
>>>Accidents leading to injury but not death are handled by Tort Law, not
>>>Criminal Law, unless it is proven that the "accident" causing
>>>crippling was in fact intentional, leading to a charge of injury with
>>>intent to maim or the like.
>>>
>>>There are some kinds of intentional homicide that are not crimes. The
>>>classic example is self-defense.
>>>
>>>In the case of Alex Baldwin shooting two people, killing one of them,
>>>he had no intent to even fire a live round, never mind killing anyone,
>>>so it is unclear that he will be charged with anything criminal.
>>>
>>>The Armorer and the Assistant Director may have been sloppy (this is
>>>disputed), but even if true, that's at most second-degree murder. I'd
>>>hazard that the Assistant Director is the likely focus, not the
>>>24-year old Armorer, who reports to that Assistant Director.
>>>
>>>If it turns out that someone did slip a live (meaning with a lead
>>>bullet and powder) round into the pistol that Alex Baldwin later used
>>>on set, whoever meddled with that pistol will likely be charged with
>>>first-degree murder, unless the law cannot figure out and prove beyond
>>>a reasonable doubt who did it.
>>>
>>>Joe Gwinn
>>
>>
>>What I find totally unbelievable is....
>>
>>1.Why there was a real gun on set? It was a real gun, not a "prop"
>>gun.
>
>Real guns look realistic in close shots. Prop guns look OK only at a
>distance.

I always thought that "prop" guns were either non-firing replicas or
real guns modified so that they cannot hold a real live round. Blanks
are shorter than real rounds and the chamber can be blocked so a live
round does not go in.

Barrels can be obstructed too. A sub caliber hole will still let
flash and smoke out, but will stop a bullet, possibly with destructive
results to the gun, better than a bullet traveling a mile or more
until it hits something.

Huge budgets, but save $500 and use a real unmodified gun. ?????

I knew real guns were used in the early days maybe even to the 50's.
Hollywood would hire marksmen to shoot near actors to get the bullet
strike and wood splinters flying effect. I thought the use of all
real guns was banned way back when. I can't remember if the show I
watched said anything about that, I think it a special on stuntmen.

>
>
>>2. Why was there live ammo on set?
>
>That is the big question. A lot of people with badges are digging
>into that. Stay tuned.
>
>Joe Gwinn

Re: Legal definitions of homicide in the US and applicability to the accidental shooting on the 'Rust' movie set

<8qjqogp6ck7sjl695apolnrjduas8fqgqk@4ax.com>

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https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=5281&group=rec.crafts.metalworking#5281

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From: joegw...@comcast.net (Joe Gwinn)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: Legal definitions of homicide in the US and applicability to the accidental shooting on the 'Rust' movie set
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 12:28:26 -0500
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 by: Joe Gwinn - Thu, 11 Nov 2021 17:28 UTC

On Thu, 11 Nov 2021 09:21:17 -0500, randy333@aol.com wrote:

>On Mon, 08 Nov 2021 16:45:53 -0500, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
>wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 08 Nov 2021 11:42:52 -0500, randy333@aol.com wrote:
>>
>>>On Fri, 05 Nov 2021 17:19:47 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>In the US, there is no single set of terms for the kinds of homicide.
>>>>The federal government has one set, and each state has its own. They
>>>>are very similar in principle, but are not identical, and may be named
>>>>and worded quite differently.
>>>>
>>>>Most of US law evolved from English Law, except for the Louisiana
>>>>Purchase states, which instead evolved from the Napoleonic Code of
>>>>France. New Mexico law likely evolved from English Law.
>>>>
>>>>Not all kinds of homicide are considered murder. The main kinds (by
>>>>whatever name) are as follows (by some old definition from
>>>>California?):
>>>>
>>>>First-degree Murder, for which one could be executed. Requires the
>>>>action and the intent to kill someone, with success. It is not
>>>>necessary to have had a specific person in mind. The classic examples
>>>>are shooting into a crowd, or setting off a bomb - it's quite likely
>>>>that someone will die, no matter who was unlucky that day.
>>>>
>>>>It's Attempted Murder if intended but no success - it's the thought
>>>>that counts.
>>>>
>>>>Second-degree Murder, also known in some states as negligent homicide.
>>>>Requires action, but no intent to kill, but with success. This is the
>>>>typical charge when an automobile accident leads to a death. Another
>>>>example is an industrial accident.
>>>>
>>>>There is no such thing as attempted second-degree murder, for lack of
>>>>murderous intent.
>>>>
>>>>Accidents leading to injury but not death are handled by Tort Law, not
>>>>Criminal Law, unless it is proven that the "accident" causing
>>>>crippling was in fact intentional, leading to a charge of injury with
>>>>intent to maim or the like.
>>>>
>>>>There are some kinds of intentional homicide that are not crimes. The
>>>>classic example is self-defense.
>>>>
>>>>In the case of Alex Baldwin shooting two people, killing one of them,
>>>>he had no intent to even fire a live round, never mind killing anyone,
>>>>so it is unclear that he will be charged with anything criminal.
>>>>
>>>>The Armorer and the Assistant Director may have been sloppy (this is
>>>>disputed), but even if true, that's at most second-degree murder. I'd
>>>>hazard that the Assistant Director is the likely focus, not the
>>>>24-year old Armorer, who reports to that Assistant Director.
>>>>
>>>>If it turns out that someone did slip a live (meaning with a lead
>>>>bullet and powder) round into the pistol that Alex Baldwin later used
>>>>on set, whoever meddled with that pistol will likely be charged with
>>>>first-degree murder, unless the law cannot figure out and prove beyond
>>>>a reasonable doubt who did it.
>>>>
>>>>Joe Gwinn
>>>
>>>
>>>What I find totally unbelievable is....
>>>
>>>1.Why there was a real gun on set? It was a real gun, not a "prop"
>>>gun.
>>
>>Real guns look realistic in close shots. Prop guns look OK only at a
>>distance.
>
>I always thought that "prop" guns were either non-firing replicas or
>real guns modified so that they cannot hold a real live round. Blanks
>are shorter than real rounds and the chamber can be blocked so a live
>round does not go in.

Prop guns are non-functional look alikes, good enough for filming
actors who are not close to the camera.

>Barrels can be obstructed too. A sub caliber hole will still let
>flash and smoke out, but will stop a bullet, possibly with destructive
>results to the gun, better than a bullet traveling a mile or more
>until it hits something.

At which point the gun with obstructed barrel would explode, killing
the actor. Whose estate will sue.

Blanks usually have a paper or plastic wad, to ensure that a
reasonable gunshot sound is generated, which requires generation of
essentially full chamber pressure, which is impossible without a solid
wad of some kind. If this wad is blocked from escaping the barrel,
the gun will explode as well.

>Huge budgets, but save $500 and use a real unmodified gun. ?????
>
>I knew real guns were used in the early days maybe even to the 50's.
>Hollywood would hire marksmen to shoot near actors to get the bullet
>strike and wood splinters flying effect. I thought the use of all
>real guns was banned way back when. I can't remember if the show I
>watched said anything about that, I think it a special on stuntmen.

This issue is not to save $500, which is insignificant on the scale of
a movie budget, even a low-budget film. The biggest expense is
usually payroll.

Real guns were and still are used for realism. Fake guns just don't
look and sound right when filmed up close. One also needs to see a
believable recoil effect on the actor for it to look right.

So, what kind of gun and round to use is at end an artistic decision.

Joe Gwinn

Re: Legal definitions of homicide in the US and applicability to the accidental shooting on the 'Rust' movie set

<smjk7q$jg3$1@dont-email.me>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=5282&group=rec.crafts.metalworking#5282

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From: muratla...@gmail.com (Jim Wilkins)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: Legal definitions of homicide in the US and applicability to the accidental shooting on the 'Rust' movie set
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 12:34:25 -0500
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 by: Jim Wilkins - Thu, 11 Nov 2021 17:34 UTC

Firearms aren't the only dangers film makers, stunt people and some actors
willingly take on.

https://www.workandmoney.com/s/dangerous-movie-stunts-94cfb629789340f9

1
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