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tech / rec.bicycles.tech / Re: Another Foaming Chain Lube, Permatex 80075

SubjectAuthor
* Another Foaming Chain Lube, Permatex 80075sms
`* Re: Another Foaming Chain Lube, Permatex 80075sms
 `* Re: Another Foaming Chain Lube, Permatex 80075sms
  +* Re: Another Foaming Chain Lube, Permatex 80075Frank Krygowski
  |`* Re: Another Foaming Chain Lube, Permatex 80075sms
  | +- Re: Another Foaming Chain Lube, Permatex 80075sms
  | +* Re: Another Foaming Chain Lube, Permatex 80075Frank Krygowski
  | |+* Re: Another Foaming Chain Lube, Permatex 80075sms
  | ||`* Re: Another Foaming Chain Lube, Permatex 80075John B.
  | || `- Re: Another Foaming Chain Lube, Permatex 80075Frank Krygowski
  | |`- Re: Another Foaming Chain Lube, Permatex 80075John B.
  | `- Re: Another Foaming Chain Lube, Permatex 80075Frank Krygowski
  `- Re: Another Foaming Chain Lube, Permatex 80075sms

1
Another Foaming Chain Lube, Permatex 80075

<svefht$6c4$1@dont-email.me>

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From: scharf.s...@geemail.com (sms)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Another Foaming Chain Lube, Permatex 80075
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2022 16:10:37 -0800
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: sms - Sun, 27 Feb 2022 00:10 UTC

For on-bike chain lubrication that penetrates into the pins and rollers
(rather than remaining mainly on the outside), the only lubricant that
works properly is a foaming chain lubricant where the thin carrier
evaporates after carrying the thicker oil into the inside of the chain.

I'd been using PJ1 Black Label (for non-O ring chains) but it's become
increasingly hard to find because motorcycle shops typically carry only
the PJ1 Blue Label for O ring chains.

I was in a local hardware store a few weeks ago and I saw that there's
another brand, Permatex 80075. I bought some and it seems to work just
as good as the PJ1. See
<https://www.outdoorsupplyhardware.com/2752603/product/y/permatex-80075>.
About the same price on Amazon <https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000HBGKTW>.

For off-bike chain lubrication there are other options, such as soaking
the chain in warmed 30W bar & chain oil, but often you don't want to go
through the trouble of removing the chain to soak it.

Re: Another Foaming Chain Lube, Permatex 80075

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From: scharf.s...@geemail.com (sms)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Another Foaming Chain Lube, Permatex 80075
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2022 00:57:16 -0800
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: sms - Sun, 27 Feb 2022 08:57 UTC

On 2/26/2022 7:04 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Sat, 26 Feb 2022 16:10:37 -0800, sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com>
> wrote:
>> I was in a local hardware store a few weeks ago and I saw that there's
>> another brand, Permatex 80075. I bought some and it seems to work just
>> as good as the PJ1. See
>> <https://www.outdoorsupplyhardware.com/2752603/product/y/permatex-80075>.
>> About the same price on Amazon <https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000HBGKTW>.
>
> SDS data sheet:
> <https://assets.unilogcorp.com/187/ITEM/DOC/Permatex_100060443_SDS.pdf>
> Chemical Name CAS No Weight-%
> DISTILLATES (PETROLEUM), 64742-53-6 30 - 60
> HYDROTREATED LIGHT NAPHTHENIC
>
> DISTILLATES (PETROLEUM), 64742-52-5 10 - 30
> HYDROTREATED HEAVY NAPHTHENIC
>
> PETROLEUM GASES, LIQUEFIED, 68476-86-8 10 - 30
> SWEETENED
>
> Light oil flows and evaporates easily, while heavy old is more like
> grease, which doesn't flow and evaporates slowly.
>
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naphthenic_oil>
> The SDS data sheet does not specify which naphthenic oils are used
> because the product is a trade secret. I couldn't find anything
> definitive from the CAS numbers. So, it's a mix of two mystery oils.

I also see the "WD-40 SPECIALIST® ROLLER CHAIN LUBE"chain lubricant
which states "sprays on thin to penetrate deep into roller chains, inner
chain links, pins and bushings, and then thickens to provide
long-lasting lubrication." They have one labeled "WD-40 SPECIALIST® BIKE
CHAIN LUBE" as well. The MSDS are very different between the two:
Roller Chain Lube:
<https://files.wd40.com/pdf/sds/specialist/wd-40-specialist-roller-chain-lube-us-ghs-sds.pdf>.
Bike Chain Lube:
<https://files.wd40.com/pdf/sds/bike/wd-40-bike-all-conditions-chain-lube-us-ghs-ca.pdf>.

According to <https://www.machinerylubrication.com/>, "A chain lubricant
should have low enough viscosity to penetrate into critical internal
surfaces and high enough viscosity, or necessary additives, to maintain
an effective film at the prevailing temperature and pressure."

Re: Another Foaming Chain Lube, Permatex 80075

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From: scharf.s...@geemail.com (sms)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Another Foaming Chain Lube, Permatex 80075
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2022 14:09:31 -0800
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: sms - Sun, 27 Feb 2022 22:09 UTC

On 2/27/2022 1:23 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

<snip>

> The lube only needs to have a low viscosity when you're applying the
> lube to the chain, so that capillary action can suck the lube between
> the pin/bushing and bushing/roller. After the carrier solvent
> evaporates, the remaining lube can be a higher viscosity that will
> keep the oil from dripping or running.

True, but a great many "drip-on" chain lubricants don't have a solvent
that evaporates. They go on thick and never penetrate into the pins and
rollers.

As Sheldon wrote "The problem with lubricating conventional chains is
that thick lubricants can't penetrate into the inaccessible crannies
where they are really needed, but thin lubricants don't last long
enough. There is a family of popular chain lubricants that deal with
this by mixing a thick oil-type lubricant with a volatile solvent. The
resulting mix is thin enough to get some penetration by capillary
action, then the solvent evaporates and leaves the thick oil behind.
This type of lube is easy to apply, and is very popular for that reason."

Soaking in warm 30 weight, non-detergent, oil (bar and chain oil) is
great if you want to take off the chain to do this. As Jobst wrote
"Chain saw lube is about as close as you can get to an ideal chain
lubricant for an exposed chain." You just better have a chain with a
quick-link of some sort if you want to do this, and not keep using a
chain-breaker tool.

Re: Another Foaming Chain Lube, Permatex 80075

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From: frkry...@sbcglobal.net (Frank Krygowski)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Another Foaming Chain Lube, Permatex 80075
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2022 11:52:31 -0500
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 by: Frank Krygowski - Mon, 28 Feb 2022 16:52 UTC

On 2/27/2022 5:09 PM, sms wrote:
> On 2/27/2022 1:23 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> The lube only needs to have a low viscosity when you're applying the
>> lube to the chain, so that capillary action can suck the lube between
>> the pin/bushing and bushing/roller.  After the carrier solvent
>> evaporates, the remaining lube can be a higher viscosity that will
>> keep the oil from dripping or running.
>
> True, but a great many "drip-on" chain lubricants don't have a solvent
> that evaporates. They go on thick and never penetrate into the pins and
> rollers.
>
> As Sheldon wrote "The problem with lubricating conventional chains is
> that thick lubricants can't penetrate into the inaccessible crannies
> where they are really needed, but thin lubricants don't last long
> enough. There is a family of popular chain lubricants that deal with
> this by mixing a thick oil-type lubricant with a volatile solvent. The
> resulting mix is thin enough to get some penetration by capillary
> action, then the solvent evaporates and leaves the thick oil behind.
> This type of lube is easy to apply, and is very popular for that reason."
>
> Soaking in warm 30 weight, non-detergent, oil (bar and chain oil) is
> great if you want to take off the chain to do this. As Jobst wrote
> "Chain saw lube is about as close as you can get to an ideal chain
> lubricant for an exposed chain." You just better have a chain with a
> quick-link of some sort if you want to do this, and not keep using a
> chain-breaker tool.

Sadly, both Sheldon and Jobst have passed away. If they were still
alive, I think they would be paying attention to data from recent actual
tests of chain lubricants. For example:
https://www.bikeradar.com/news/friction-facts-publishes-ultrafast-chain-lube-formula/

--
- Frank Krygowski

Re: Another Foaming Chain Lube, Permatex 80075

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From: scharf.s...@geemail.com (sms)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Another Foaming Chain Lube, Permatex 80075
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2022 13:30:30 -0800
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: sms - Mon, 28 Feb 2022 21:30 UTC

On 2/28/2022 11:01 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Feb 2022 11:52:31 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> Sadly, both Sheldon and Jobst have passed away. If they were still
>> alive, I think they would be paying attention to data from recent actual
>> tests of chain lubricants. For example:
>> https://www.bikeradar.com/news/friction-facts-publishes-ultrafast-chain-lube-formula/
>
> More on chain lubes from Friction Facts:
> <https://www.ceramicspeed.com/en/cycling/inside/test-data-reports/chain-lube-efficiency-tests>
> <https://www.ceramicspeed.com/media/3505/velonews-friction-facts-chain-lube-tests-combined.pdf>
>
> From the two graphs, WD-40 Aerosol used 7.1 watts, extra virgin olive
> oil used 5.1 watts, and paraffin wax only 4.8 watts. Personally, I
> believe that olive oil would provide a competitive advantage where the
> aroma might inspire other riders to take a lunch break.

LOL, considering that plain WD-40 is not a lubricant, those numbers are
not surprising.

I saw one video of someone showing how to do paraffin properly, using
solid paraffin was combined with liquid paraffin oil. Of course most
people using solid paraffin are adding some kind of liquid lubricant in
the mix since paraffin by itself is not going to last very long.

What the Experts say About Chain Waxing:

"When wax was popular, we'd get customers coming in all the time
complaining about shifting problems on their bikes. Removed the wax and
lubed with conventional stuff and voila, shifting back to normal." Mike
Jacoubowsky, co-owner of Chain Reaction Bicycles.

"Wax is not mobile and cannot return to a location from which it has
been removed by rotation of one part on another." Jobst Brandt, author
of The Bicycle Wheel

"If you use dry lube or wax, follow product directions and use it often.
In some cases, dry lube should be used for every ride. It wears off very
quickly and no new lube can flow to the critical wear areas." Craig
Metalcraft, manufacturer of Super Link III.

"Downsides of the wax approach include the fact that it is a great deal
of trouble, and that wax is probably not as good a lubricant as oil or
grease." Sheldon Brown

Re: Another Foaming Chain Lube, Permatex 80075

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From: scharf.s...@geemail.com (sms)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Another Foaming Chain Lube, Permatex 80075
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2022 13:43:51 -0800
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: sms - Mon, 28 Feb 2022 21:43 UTC

On 2/28/2022 11:22 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

<snip>

Olive oil is very cheap when purchased in bulk, so I can see bicycle
service departments heading to the Business Costco:
<https://bulkbycho.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/Costco_business_center_drums.jpg>.

> Minor quibble. Nobody except dangerous beginners ever use 30wt engine
> oil to lubricate a chain saw bar (or mix with the gasoline).

I was referring to 30W Bar and Chain Oil:
<https://www.walmart.com/ip/Super-Tech-SAE-30-Bar-and-Chain-Oil-1-Quart-Bottle/16913789>.
Yes, it's tacky, but you wipe the oil off the outside of the chain once
the chain is lubricated.

> Maybe the chain gang should take a hint from belt driven bicycles,
> which usually have a right seat stay splitter to allow for belt
> changes?

That would be nice but I think that it probably affects the structural
integrity of the frame.

Two weeks ago I did a ride with my niece and sister-in-law. I looked at
their bikes and asked "when was the last time you oiled your chain?"
knowing that the answer would be "not since the last time you worked on
our bikes two years ago." You know that the typical occasional rider is
not going to remove their chain to soak it in warm oil, or heat up wax
and dip it. But you might convince them to spray some foaming chain lube
on the chain instead of WD-40, or instead of using 3 in 1 oil.

Re: Another Foaming Chain Lube, Permatex 80075

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From: scharf.s...@geemail.com (sms)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Another Foaming Chain Lube, Permatex 80075
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2022 18:54:29 -0800
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: sms - Tue, 1 Mar 2022 02:54 UTC

On 2/28/2022 2:58 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Feb 2022 13:30:30 -0800, sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 2/28/2022 11:01 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>> On Mon, 28 Feb 2022 11:52:31 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Sadly, both Sheldon and Jobst have passed away. If they were still
>>>> alive, I think they would be paying attention to data from recent actual
>>>> tests of chain lubricants. For example:
>>>> https://www.bikeradar.com/news/friction-facts-publishes-ultrafast-chain-lube-formula/
>>>
>>> More on chain lubes from Friction Facts:
>>> <https://www.ceramicspeed.com/en/cycling/inside/test-data-reports/chain-lube-efficiency-tests>
>>> <https://www.ceramicspeed.com/media/3505/velonews-friction-facts-chain-lube-tests-combined.pdf>
>>>
>>> From the two graphs, WD-40 Aerosol used 7.1 watts, extra virgin olive
>>> oil used 5.1 watts, and paraffin wax only 4.8 watts. Personally, I
>>> believe that olive oil would provide a competitive advantage where the
>>> aroma might inspire other riders to take a lunch break.
>>
>> LOL, considering that plain WD-40 is not a lubricant, those numbers are
>> not surprising.
>
> I'm not sure what Friction Facts meant by "WD-40 Aerosol". I could
> have been the original water displacement formulation, or one of the
> growing collection of special purpose formulations:
> <https://www.wd40.com/products/?category=bike>
> This would be my best guess(tm) except that it was released in 2018,
> while the Friction Facts tests were in 2013:
> <https://www.wd40.com/products/wd-40-bike-all-conditions-lube/>
> Yech. 1 to 5% mineral oil. Lacking alternatives, it must be the
> original water displacement formulation:
> <https://www.wd40.com/products/handy-can/>
> Hmmm... Aug 2021. "Petroleum base oil". Five different possible
> classes of base oil:
> <https://petroleumservicecompany.com/blog/understanding-types-of-lubricants-base-oil-groups/>
> Maybe I should give up now while I'm still sane?
>
>> I saw one video of someone showing how to do paraffin properly, using
>> solid paraffin was combined with liquid paraffin oil. Of course most
>> people using solid paraffin are adding some kind of liquid lubricant in
>> the mix since paraffin by itself is not going to last very long.
>
> Before one can apply the magic wax anti-friction elixir to the chain,
> the chain must be thoroughly cleaned and degreased. Anything worth
> doing is also worth over-doing, which this video is a good example:
> "Chain Cleaning Goes Ultrasonic! How Does It Work?"
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHFZyr7BMEo> (7:06)
> Notice that there are two ultrasonic cleaners and four cleaning
> potions involved.
>
> I'm a fan of drip brush chain oilers:
> <https://www.google.com/search?q=drip+bruch+chain+oiler&tbm=isch>
> They do a mediocre job of getting oil into the moving parts of the
> chain. Instead, they do a tolerable job of washing off the dirt and
> crud before it can stick to the moving parts. Such a system would
> probably be more popular were it not for the complaints by nearby
> riders of the resulting dirty oil spray.
>
>> What the Experts say About Chain Waxing:
>>
>> "When wax was popular, we'd get customers coming in all the time
>> complaining about shifting problems on their bikes. Removed the wax and
>> lubed with conventional stuff and voila, shifting back to normal." Mike
>> Jacoubowsky, co-owner of Chain Reaction Bicycles.
>>
>> "Wax is not mobile and cannot return to a location from which it has
>> been removed by rotation of one part on another." Jobst Brandt, author
>> of The Bicycle Wheel
>>
>> "If you use dry lube or wax, follow product directions and use it often.
>> In some cases, dry lube should be used for every ride. It wears off very
>> quickly and no new lube can flow to the critical wear areas." Craig
>> Metalcraft, manufacturer of Super Link III.
>>
>> "Downsides of the wax approach include the fact that it is a great deal
>> of trouble, and that wax is probably not as good a lubricant as oil or
>> grease." Sheldon Brown
>
> The Friction Facts data shows that wax is a somewhat better lubricant
> than oil.
>
> I think the experts are ignoring the real problem. Claims and tests
> of lubrication performance seem to always be based on what is required
> to lubricate a nice new chain. That's fine for racers and big
> spenders, but useless for casual riders who are likely to be riding
> with a worn, rusted, or stretched chain. For those all too common
> situations, the gap between the pin to bushing and bushing to roller
> are likely to have expanded (or elongated) to the point where neither
> wax or oil will survive for long in the gap. A little chain flex
> during shifting, and the wax or oil is squeezed out. In mid 2019, I
> was inspecting carefully disassembled old but clean chains where I had
> doped the chain lube with UV dye tracer:
> <https://www.amazon.com/Interdynamics-Certified-Fuel-Systems-Ounce/dp/B002M4G24U>
> There were a few specks of oil left after a short ride on my trainer.
> However, a fairly new and not very worn chain showed plenty of dye
> marker. Note that I did not test any waxes.

I have one of those chain cleaners with brushes. It takes several
solvent changes before the chain runs clean, but it works really well to
have the links in motion through the solvent. I've seen a complaint
about how the chain is in dirty solvent but that's from people that
don't realize that it takes several solvent changes to get the chain
clean. You can also use those devices to oil the chain, but it's best to
have two separate units. The chain is at least submerged in the
lubricant. I also suppose you could heat the lubricant before pouring it
in. The key thing is to have a way to clean and lubricate the chain
without pushing out a pin (unless your chain has a link that can be
disconnected).

Re: Another Foaming Chain Lube, Permatex 80075

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From: frkry...@sbcglobal.net (Frank Krygowski)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Another Foaming Chain Lube, Permatex 80075
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2022 23:01:44 -0500
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 by: Frank Krygowski - Tue, 1 Mar 2022 04:01 UTC

On 2/28/2022 4:30 PM, sms wrote:
> On 2/28/2022 11:01 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> On Mon, 28 Feb 2022 11:52:31 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Sadly, both Sheldon and Jobst have passed away. If they were still
>>> alive, I think they would be paying attention to data from recent actual
>>> tests of chain lubricants. For example:
>>> https://www.bikeradar.com/news/friction-facts-publishes-ultrafast-chain-lube-formula/
>>>
>>
>> More on chain lubes from Friction Facts:
>> <https://www.ceramicspeed.com/en/cycling/inside/test-data-reports/chain-lube-efficiency-tests>
>>
>> <https://www.ceramicspeed.com/media/3505/velonews-friction-facts-chain-lube-tests-combined.pdf>
>>
>>
>>  From the two graphs, WD-40 Aerosol used 7.1 watts, extra virgin olive
>> oil used 5.1 watts, and paraffin wax only 4.8 watts.  Personally, I
>> believe that olive oil would provide a competitive advantage where the
>> aroma might inspire other riders to take a lunch break.
>
> LOL, considering that plain WD-40 is not a lubricant, those numbers are
> not surprising.

"WD-40 is not a lubricant" is closer to a religious statement than a
scientific one. Practically speaking, a lubricant is something that
reduces friction and/or wear. WD-40 certainly does that to some degree.

I believe the origin of the religious phrase was the fact that
(apparently) WD-40 was not initially intended for lubricant use. And
it's true that there are better, longer lasting lubricants for most
applications. But the stuff does lubricate. We've probably all used it
that way.

> What the Experts say About Chain Waxing:
>
> "When wax was popular, we'd get customers coming in all the time
> complaining about shifting problems on their bikes. Removed the wax and
> lubed with conventional stuff and voila, shifting back to normal." Mike
> Jacoubowsky, co-owner of Chain Reaction Bicycles.
>
> "Wax is not mobile and cannot return to a location from which it has
> been removed by rotation of one part on another." Jobst Brandt, author
> of The Bicycle Wheel
>
> "If you use dry lube or wax, follow product directions and use it often.
> In some cases, dry lube should be used for every ride. It wears off very
> quickly and no new lube can flow to the critical wear areas." Craig
> Metalcraft, manufacturer of Super Link III.
>
> "Downsides of the wax approach include the fact that it is a great deal
> of trouble, and that wax is probably not as good a lubricant as oil or
> grease." Sheldon Brown

I know this is one of Scharf's obsessions, but for those new to the
discussion:

It's much more accurate to say "What the experts USED to say about chain
waxing." Again, I think that if Jobst and Sheldon had read the test
results linked above
https://www.ceramicspeed.com/en/cycling/inside/test-data-reports/chain-lube-efficiency-tests
they would have said "Oh. I guess wax-based lubes do work best."

And really, data on comparative chain life was available long ago, even
if it was obscure. These images are from tests decades old, comparing a
wide variety of lubes then available in real world, on-road testing. Wax
gave the longest chain life by a large margin.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/16972296@N08/8101576421/in/dateposted-public/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/16972296@N08/8101591380/in/dateposted-public/

Yes, hot dipping a chain is more trouble than spraying on some goop,
whether or not it foams. The benefits of wax-based lubes are less
friction loss, longer chain life and a much, much cleaner bike. And I
and some others I know do the wax application with the chain on the
bike. Performance-wise, it may not be quite as good as a hot wax bath,
but it takes much less time and trouble and works very well.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Re: Another Foaming Chain Lube, Permatex 80075

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From: frkry...@sbcglobal.net (Frank Krygowski)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Another Foaming Chain Lube, Permatex 80075
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2022 23:07:56 -0500
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 by: Frank Krygowski - Tue, 1 Mar 2022 04:07 UTC

On 2/28/2022 5:58 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>
> Before one can apply the magic wax anti-friction elixir to the chain,
> the chain must be thoroughly cleaned and degreased.

I don't bother. I just add the wax-oil mix (maybe 5% to 10% oil, I never
measured) with the chain on the bike. I do it by warming the chain
slightly, about a foot at a time, with a low flame propane torch; crayon
the wax-oil on, then reheat until the wax melts and flows in. Backpedal
a foot or so and repeat until the chain is all done.
> In other words, methinks that getting the oil into the moving chain
> parts is not the problem. It's keeping the oil there. My guess(tm)
> is that wax, being a solid, does a better job of plugging the gaps and
> sealing what little clean wax is left inside the bushings and keeping
> the accumulated outside crud from getting inside.

Perhaps. For whatever reason, it works better than liquid lubes, as
shown by Ceramicspeed and Bike World magazine data. And it's far, far
cleaner.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Re: Another Foaming Chain Lube, Permatex 80075

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From: scharf.s...@geemail.com (sms)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Another Foaming Chain Lube, Permatex 80075
Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2022 11:03:40 -0800
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 by: sms - Tue, 1 Mar 2022 19:03 UTC

On 3/1/2022 10:58 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Feb 2022 23:01:44 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> On 2/28/2022 4:30 PM, sms wrote:
>>> LOL, considering that plain WD-40 is not a lubricant, those numbers are
>>> not surprising.
>>
>> "WD-40 is not a lubricant" is closer to a religious statement than a
>> scientific one. Practically speaking, a lubricant is something that
>> reduces friction and/or wear. WD-40 certainly does that to some degree.
>>
>> I believe the origin of the religious phrase was the fact that
>> (apparently) WD-40 was not initially intended for lubricant use. And
>> it's true that there are better, longer lasting lubricants for most
>> applications. But the stuff does lubricate. We've probably all used it
>> that way.
>
> I don't really care about the original intentions, when the major
> ingredients in WD-40 are the same components found in common chain oil
> lubricants. Note the article title:
> "What's Inside WD-40? Superlube's Secret Sauce"
> <https://www.wired.com/2009/04/st-whatsinside-6/>
> Basically, it's mineral oil lube and some decane solvent.
>
> Doctors endorse mineral oil as a lubricant:
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mineral_oil>
> "It is recommended by the American Society for Reproductive Medicine
> for use as a fertility-preserving vaginal lubrication."
>
> If it moves, it's a lubricant. If it's stuck, it's an adhesive.

Water is both a solvent and a lubricant too.

But the bottom line is neither is very good at it.

From <https://clevercreations.org/can-wd-40-be-used-as-lubricant/>:
"While WD-40 does have some lubricating properties, it is not a good
lubricant and should not be used for this purpose. Using it on anything
that needs proper lubrication (bike chains, treadmills, garage doors,
etc.) will not give you the results you want.

The main reason for this is that only a fraction of WD-40 is made up of
lubricants. And these are only light mineral lubricants, unsuitable for
any serious friction or heat."

Re: Another Foaming Chain Lube, Permatex 80075

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From: slocom...@gmail.com (John B.)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Another Foaming Chain Lube, Permatex 80075
Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2022 05:25:13 +0700
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: John B. - Tue, 1 Mar 2022 22:25 UTC

On Tue, 01 Mar 2022 10:58:36 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Mon, 28 Feb 2022 23:01:44 -0500, Frank Krygowski
><frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>>On 2/28/2022 4:30 PM, sms wrote:
>>> LOL, considering that plain WD-40 is not a lubricant, those numbers are
>>> not surprising.
>>
>>"WD-40 is not a lubricant" is closer to a religious statement than a
>>scientific one. Practically speaking, a lubricant is something that
>>reduces friction and/or wear. WD-40 certainly does that to some degree.
>>
>>I believe the origin of the religious phrase was the fact that
>>(apparently) WD-40 was not initially intended for lubricant use. And
>>it's true that there are better, longer lasting lubricants for most
>>applications. But the stuff does lubricate. We've probably all used it
>>that way.
>
>I don't really care about the original intentions, when the major
>ingredients in WD-40 are the same components found in common chain oil
>lubricants. Note the article title:
>"What's Inside WD-40? Superlube's Secret Sauce"
><https://www.wired.com/2009/04/st-whatsinside-6/>
>Basically, it's mineral oil lube and some decane solvent.
>
>Doctors endorse mineral oil as a lubricant:
><https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mineral_oil>
>"It is recommended by the American Society for Reproductive Medicine
>for use as a fertility-preserving vaginal lubrication."
>
>If it moves, it's a lubricant. If it's stuck, it's an adhesive.

Try
https://files.wd40.com/pdf/sds/mup/wd-40-multi-use-product-aerosol-low-voc-sds-us-ghs.pdf
--
Cheers,

John B.

Re: Another Foaming Chain Lube, Permatex 80075

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From: slocom...@gmail.com (John B.)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Another Foaming Chain Lube, Permatex 80075
Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2022 05:53:54 +0700
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 by: John B. - Tue, 1 Mar 2022 22:53 UTC

On Tue, 01 Mar 2022 14:06:53 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Tue, 1 Mar 2022 11:03:40 -0800, sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On 3/1/2022 10:58 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>> If it moves, it's a lubricant. If it's stuck, it's an adhesive.
>>
>>Water is both a solvent and a lubricant too.
>
>I didn't mention anything about it being a solvent. The two choices
>are a lubricant (it moves) or an adhesive (it doesn't move). Solvent
>is something else.
>
>>But the bottom line is neither is very good at it.
>
>True. That's because when the solvents in WD-40 evaporate, what
>remains is a sticky, jelly-like, goo. I haven't tried it with pure
>mineral oil, but as I recall, it doesn't evaporate or leave any
>residue. It's much like comparing pure (white) gasoline and modern
>E10 gasoline. It's not the gasoline that causes problems. It's the
>additives.
>
>> From <https://clevercreations.org/can-wd-40-be-used-as-lubricant/>:
>>"While WD-40 does have some lubricating properties, it is not a good
>>lubricant and should not be used for this purpose. Using it on anything
>>that needs proper lubrication (bike chains, treadmills, garage doors,
>>etc.) will not give you the results you want.
>>
>>The main reason for this is that only a fraction of WD-40 is made up of
>>lubricants. And these are only light mineral lubricants, unsuitable for
>>any serious friction or heat."
>
>True. However, the "real" chain lube also contains only a small
>amount of actual lubricant, which happens to be mineral oil:
><https://www.wd40.com/products/wd-40-bike-all-conditions-lube/>
><https://files.wd40.com/pdf/sds/bike/wd-40-bike-all-conditions-chain-lube-us-ghs-ca.pdf>
>1 to 5% mineral oil. However, that's fine because the rest of the
>concoction is a volatile solvent carrier which allows capillary action
>to suck the dissolved mineral oil into the moving chain parts. The
>volume of oil that can fit between the pin/sleeve, and sleeve/roller
>is quite small. Want me to calculate the volume of oil required?
>
>Incidentally, chain stretch is not due to lubrication failure. You
>can lube the chain with clean water and it won't wear. The problem is
>that dirt, dust, filth, crud, etc that mixes with the lube. If it
>enters the moving parts (pin/sleeve/roller), it acts like an abrasive
>and grinds away the metal. If I mount an electric water pump and
>sprayer onto the bicycle, and apply a continuous spray rinse (with
>some soap or detergent) to clean off the dirt, dust, filth, crud, etc,
>I'm fairly sure that there will be little or no chain wear or stretch.
>The only reason it's not done is because oil and wax are better and
>such a pump and sprayer contraption is impractical for anything better
>than a stationary bicycle. Too bad Friction Facts didn't test water
>spray as a lubricant.
>
>Drivel: I do knife sharpening on the side. I have some Japanese
>water stones, and some Arkansas oil stones. Dry stones don't work. I
>find that water stones and flowing water to be better at removing the
>waste grit than oil.

Youse guys is getten all carried away (:-)

Based on your arguments air is a lubricant (:-)
Look up "air lubricated bearings"

And your sharpening stones will, if formed into a circle and spun at
the correct speed, work perfectly well, as far as their sharpening
ability, dry (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

Re: Another Foaming Chain Lube, Permatex 80075

<svmhkg$vf2$2@dont-email.me>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=52924&group=rec.bicycles.tech#52924

 copy link   Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
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From: frkry...@sbcglobal.net (Frank Krygowski)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Another Foaming Chain Lube, Permatex 80075
Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2022 20:35:11 -0500
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 by: Frank Krygowski - Wed, 2 Mar 2022 01:35 UTC

On 3/1/2022 5:53 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Tue, 01 Mar 2022 14:06:53 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 1 Mar 2022 11:03:40 -0800, sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 3/1/2022 10:58 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>>> If it moves, it's a lubricant. If it's stuck, it's an adhesive.
>>>
>>> Water is both a solvent and a lubricant too.
>>
>> I didn't mention anything about it being a solvent. The two choices
>> are a lubricant (it moves) or an adhesive (it doesn't move). Solvent
>> is something else.
>>
>>> But the bottom line is neither is very good at it.
>>
>> True. That's because when the solvents in WD-40 evaporate, what
>> remains is a sticky, jelly-like, goo. I haven't tried it with pure
>> mineral oil, but as I recall, it doesn't evaporate or leave any
>> residue. It's much like comparing pure (white) gasoline and modern
>> E10 gasoline. It's not the gasoline that causes problems. It's the
>> additives.
>>
>>> From <https://clevercreations.org/can-wd-40-be-used-as-lubricant/>:
>>> "While WD-40 does have some lubricating properties, it is not a good
>>> lubricant and should not be used for this purpose. Using it on anything
>>> that needs proper lubrication (bike chains, treadmills, garage doors,
>>> etc.) will not give you the results you want.
>>>
>>> The main reason for this is that only a fraction of WD-40 is made up of
>>> lubricants. And these are only light mineral lubricants, unsuitable for
>>> any serious friction or heat."
>>
>> True. However, the "real" chain lube also contains only a small
>> amount of actual lubricant, which happens to be mineral oil:
>> <https://www.wd40.com/products/wd-40-bike-all-conditions-lube/>
>> <https://files.wd40.com/pdf/sds/bike/wd-40-bike-all-conditions-chain-lube-us-ghs-ca.pdf>
>> 1 to 5% mineral oil. However, that's fine because the rest of the
>> concoction is a volatile solvent carrier which allows capillary action
>> to suck the dissolved mineral oil into the moving chain parts. The
>> volume of oil that can fit between the pin/sleeve, and sleeve/roller
>> is quite small. Want me to calculate the volume of oil required?
>>
>> Incidentally, chain stretch is not due to lubrication failure. You
>> can lube the chain with clean water and it won't wear. The problem is
>> that dirt, dust, filth, crud, etc that mixes with the lube. If it
>> enters the moving parts (pin/sleeve/roller), it acts like an abrasive
>> and grinds away the metal. If I mount an electric water pump and
>> sprayer onto the bicycle, and apply a continuous spray rinse (with
>> some soap or detergent) to clean off the dirt, dust, filth, crud, etc,
>> I'm fairly sure that there will be little or no chain wear or stretch.
>> The only reason it's not done is because oil and wax are better and
>> such a pump and sprayer contraption is impractical for anything better
>> than a stationary bicycle. Too bad Friction Facts didn't test water
>> spray as a lubricant.
>>
>> Drivel: I do knife sharpening on the side. I have some Japanese
>> water stones, and some Arkansas oil stones. Dry stones don't work. I
>> find that water stones and flowing water to be better at removing the
>> waste grit than oil.
>
> Youse guys is getten all carried away (:-)
>
> Based on your arguments air is a lubricant (:-)
> Look up "air lubricated bearings"
>
> And your sharpening stones will, if formed into a circle and spun at
> the correct speed, work perfectly well, as far as their sharpening
> ability, dry (:-)

I agree on air bearings. And, I sharpen my knives with a dry stone.
Works fine for me.

--
- Frank Krygowski

1
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