On Sun, 06 Mar 2022 19:30:56 -0500, Joy Beeson
<jbeeson@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:

>On Sun, 6 Mar 2022 13:05:12 -0500, Frank Krygowski
><frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> It's not going to be a major problem because true panic stops are rare.
>
>It's a crying shame that one can't practice being startled.

Well.... my wife startled me a time or two. We were sitting there
eating breakfast and she looked across the table and announced, "I'm
Pregnant".

By Gorry! Now, that'll make a fellow sit right up and take notice!
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 3/6/2022 6:00 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Sun, 06 Mar 2022 10:02:24 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>> On 3/5/2022 8:48 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 3/5/2022 3:02 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Well, in my book the ease of modulation is where it is at.
>>>> Disks are simply too powerful and too easy to lock up.
>>>> Once time over the bars and you would never like disks again.
>>>
>>> I agree with that. At least for road riding, I think it
>>> should require a fairly hard lever force to lock up a brake.
>>>
>>
>> I'm with you in principle but humans adapt such that 'hard
>> lever force' is a squishy value.
>>
>> Riders with spoon brakes probably called the first calipers
>> 'grabby' in the same way that Consumer Reports, when
>> reviewing a selection of three speed bicycles (1974? 1975?),
>> singled out the only quality machine, Raleigh Sports, as
>> 'unacceptable' due to excessive brake response. (all the
>> other machines tested were XMart BSOs with crappy brakes)
>
> With the exception of the Japanese bike with the "rod" brakes I have
> never owned a bicycle that didn't have what I considered as adequate
> brakes. Yes I may have has to "fiddle" with them a bit or change the
> brake pads but never inadequate.
>
> I might add that the "strongest" brakes I ever used were Vee brakes on
> one particular bike that would stop either or both wheels from turning
> while coasting down a hill at a guessed 25 MPH. Can you have "more"
> breaking then the ability to stop the wheel from turning?
>
> All of which isn't an argument that you shouldn't use disc brakes, or
> dragging your feet for that matter, to stop, if you want to (:-)

My very first "10 speed" (that low end Staiger I mentioned) had Balila
long reach aluminum center pull brakes running on dimpled chrome steel
rims. I'd call them inadequate. The brake arms were rather thin, and the
brakes howled terribly despite my efforts to toe them in.

But the biggest inadequacy showed up on a day my wife and I were riding
in a downpour. We descended the short steep hill in front of our lot,
intending to slow as usual and turn right and into our driveway. We
actually sailed on at least 50 feet beyond the turn, maybe more.
Squeezing full strength did nothing to slow us. (I understand those
dimples served as reservoirs for water.)

Since then, the brakes I've used have been much better, but the original
long reach center pulls on my Raleigh were pretty weak. I replaced them
with cantilevers. Those and all subsequent brakes (mostly cantilevers)
have been fine.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 3/6/2022 6:08 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Sun, 6 Mar 2022 07:30:08 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
> <i_am_cycle_pathic@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>
>> On Sunday, March 6, 2022 at 10:22:56 a.m. UTC-5, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>> On 3/5/2022 3:02 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, in my book the ease of modulation is where it is at. Disks are
>>>>> simply too powerful and too easy to lock up. Once time over the bars and
>>>>> you would never like disks again.
>>>>
>>>> I agree with that. At least for road riding, I think it should require a
>>>> fairly hard lever force to lock up a brake.
>>>>
>>> It’s one of those things that folks online worry about mainly comment
>>> sections..
>>>
>>> But folks actually riding, even roadies in real life have generally been
>>> keen, as hydraulic disks generally are easier to live with for most folks,
>>> the advantages are less for a Sunday best club run!
>>>
>>> Roger Merriman
>>
>> Whenever I put a new set of brakes on any bicycle I then ride the bicycle slowly to an empty parking lot or schoolyard. Once there I ride at different speeds and hit the brakes hard, easy and so on. That gives me a good feel for the bike's new braking system and does so in a safe environment.
>>
>> I really don't understand this fear that so many have of braking hard and being catapulted over the handlebar - no matter what style of brake they're using.
>>
>> Cheers
>
> Well, I don't know about being catapulted over the handle bars but I
> did, once, brake hard enough that the rear wheel came off the ground.

I've practiced that move. Rear wheel barely lifting is as fast as a bike
can decelerate.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 3/6/2022 7:30 PM, Joy Beeson wrote:
> On Sun, 6 Mar 2022 13:05:12 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> It's not going to be a major problem because true panic stops are rare.
>
> It's a crying shame that one can't practice being startled.

Good point.

ISTR some Pink Panther movies where the inspector had his servant
repeatedly try to ambush him. Something like that might be the ticket.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Am 06.03.2022 um 17:29 schrieb Frank Krygowski:
> On 3/6/2022 2:45 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:

>> The biggest part besides technique is getting used to the brakes. All
>> hydro disks I use and have used have excellent modulation. This week I
>> had my first ride of the season on my road bike with rim brakes and CF
>> rims. They really suck compared to the hydro disk brakes on my winter
>> bikes (cross and gravel). Even with those brakes I got used to within
>> a couple of minutes.
>
> Adaptation is certainly possible. And I imagine a person riding only one
> bike (or only one bike per season) would quickly adapt for ordinary work.
>
> I'd be more concerned about a person with multiple bikes, and about
> emergency stops. For example, a person who had spent eight months riding
> with rim brakes and CF rims would be used to squeezing quite hard to
> stop. If that person then switched to a "winter bike" with touchy discs,
> then immediately had a car run a stop sign in front of him, I'd expect
> he'd overwork the front brake. (That's assuming the bikes were not
> hugely different otherwise - as in a heavy mountain bike with straight
> bars vs. a light road bike with drops.)

I don't think even this is any issue. Once you've learned proper
braking techniques, you can handle everything.

The minimal variant is
- keep both hands on the handle bar (80%+ of brake crash victims fail here)
- brake hard with front brake and soft with rear brake (hard both brakes
if you don't know which is which)
- release brakes once you feel the rear wheel lift (this is where the
others fail)
- repeat if necessary

Once you expect the rear wheel to lift and know that releaseing the
brakes is the best reaction, brake modulation is only needed for
optimization, not for crash avoidance.

On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 17:16:00 +0100, Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de>
wrote:

>Am 06.03.2022 um 17:29 schrieb Frank Krygowski:
>> On 3/6/2022 2:45 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>
>>> The biggest part besides technique is getting used to the brakes. All
>>> hydro disks I use and have used have excellent modulation. This week I
>>> had my first ride of the season on my road bike with rim brakes and CF
>>> rims. They really suck compared to the hydro disk brakes on my winter
>>> bikes (cross and gravel). Even with those brakes I got used to within
>>> a couple of minutes.
>>
>> Adaptation is certainly possible. And I imagine a person riding only one
>> bike (or only one bike per season) would quickly adapt for ordinary work.
>>
>> I'd be more concerned about a person with multiple bikes, and about
>> emergency stops. For example, a person who had spent eight months riding
>> with rim brakes and CF rims would be used to squeezing quite hard to
>> stop. If that person then switched to a "winter bike" with touchy discs,
>> then immediately had a car run a stop sign in front of him, I'd expect
>> he'd overwork the front brake. (That's assuming the bikes were not
>> hugely different otherwise - as in a heavy mountain bike with straight
>> bars vs. a light road bike with drops.)
>
>I don't think even this is any issue. Once you've learned proper
>braking techniques, you can handle everything.
>
>The minimal variant is
>- keep both hands on the handle bar (80%+ of brake crash victims fail here)
>- brake hard with front brake and soft with rear brake (hard both brakes
>if you don't know which is which)
>- release brakes once you feel the rear wheel lift (this is where the
>others fail)
>- repeat if necessary
>
>Once you expect the rear wheel to lift and know that releaseing the
>brakes is the best reaction, brake modulation is only needed for
>optimization, not for crash avoidance.

I would certainly agree with you in a rational well thought out
instance but my experience, admittedly in a single emergency
stop/crash, was the taxi stopped in front of me, I grabbed the brakes,
the rear wheel lifted and I hit the taxi, all in the matter of a
second or two.

And yes was going at a speed far in excess of what I should have been.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sunday, March 6, 2022 at 8:14:12 PM UTC-6, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 3/6/2022 6:00 PM, John B. wrote:
> > On Sun, 06 Mar 2022 10:02:24 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >
> >> On 3/5/2022 8:48 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>> On 3/5/2022 3:02 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Well, in my book the ease of modulation is where it is at.
> >>>> Disks are simply too powerful and too easy to lock up.
> >>>> Once time over the bars and you would never like disks again.
> >>>
> >>> I agree with that. At least for road riding, I think it
> >>> should require a fairly hard lever force to lock up a brake.
> >>>
> >>
> >> I'm with you in principle but humans adapt such that 'hard
> >> lever force' is a squishy value.
> >>
> >> Riders with spoon brakes probably called the first calipers
> >> 'grabby' in the same way that Consumer Reports, when
> >> reviewing a selection of three speed bicycles (1974? 1975?),
> >> singled out the only quality machine, Raleigh Sports, as
> >> 'unacceptable' due to excessive brake response. (all the
> >> other machines tested were XMart BSOs with crappy brakes)
> >
> > With the exception of the Japanese bike with the "rod" brakes I have
> > never owned a bicycle that didn't have what I considered as adequate
> > brakes. Yes I may have has to "fiddle" with them a bit or change the
> > brake pads but never inadequate.
> >
> > I might add that the "strongest" brakes I ever used were Vee brakes on
> > one particular bike that would stop either or both wheels from turning
> > while coasting down a hill at a guessed 25 MPH. Can you have "more"
> > breaking then the ability to stop the wheel from turning?
> >
> > All of which isn't an argument that you shouldn't use disc brakes, or
> > dragging your feet for that matter, to stop, if you want to (:-)
> My very first "10 speed" (that low end Staiger I mentioned) had Balila
> long reach aluminum center pull brakes running on dimpled chrome steel
> rims. I'd call them inadequate. The brake arms were rather thin, and the
> brakes howled terribly despite my efforts to toe them in.
>
> But the biggest inadequacy showed up on a day my wife and I were riding
> in a downpour. We descended the short steep hill in front of our lot,
> intending to slow as usual and turn right and into our driveway. We
> actually sailed on at least 50 feet beyond the turn, maybe more.
> Squeezing full strength did nothing to slow us. (I understand those
> dimples served as reservoirs for water.)
>
> Since then, the brakes I've used have been much better, but the original
> long reach center pulls on my Raleigh were pretty weak. I replaced them
> with cantilevers. Those and all subsequent brakes (mostly cantilevers)
> have been fine.

Maybe my bike mechanic skills are not up to speed, so to speak. But how do you replace long reach center pull brakes (mounted with a hole through the fork crown or the seatstay bridge) with cantilever brakes (mounted on brazed on studs on each fork leg or on the seatstays)?

>
> --
> - Frank Krygowski

On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 3:58:38 PM UTC-8, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Sunday, March 6, 2022 at 8:14:12 PM UTC-6, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 3/6/2022 6:00 PM, John B. wrote:
> > > On Sun, 06 Mar 2022 10:02:24 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> > >
> > >> On 3/5/2022 8:48 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > >>> On 3/5/2022 3:02 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Well, in my book the ease of modulation is where it is at.
> > >>>> Disks are simply too powerful and too easy to lock up.
> > >>>> Once time over the bars and you would never like disks again.
> > >>>
> > >>> I agree with that. At least for road riding, I think it
> > >>> should require a fairly hard lever force to lock up a brake.
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >> I'm with you in principle but humans adapt such that 'hard
> > >> lever force' is a squishy value.
> > >>
> > >> Riders with spoon brakes probably called the first calipers
> > >> 'grabby' in the same way that Consumer Reports, when
> > >> reviewing a selection of three speed bicycles (1974? 1975?),
> > >> singled out the only quality machine, Raleigh Sports, as
> > >> 'unacceptable' due to excessive brake response. (all the
> > >> other machines tested were XMart BSOs with crappy brakes)
> > >
> > > With the exception of the Japanese bike with the "rod" brakes I have
> > > never owned a bicycle that didn't have what I considered as adequate
> > > brakes. Yes I may have has to "fiddle" with them a bit or change the
> > > brake pads but never inadequate.
> > >
> > > I might add that the "strongest" brakes I ever used were Vee brakes on
> > > one particular bike that would stop either or both wheels from turning
> > > while coasting down a hill at a guessed 25 MPH. Can you have "more"
> > > breaking then the ability to stop the wheel from turning?
> > >
> > > All of which isn't an argument that you shouldn't use disc brakes, or
> > > dragging your feet for that matter, to stop, if you want to (:-)
> > My very first "10 speed" (that low end Staiger I mentioned) had Balila
> > long reach aluminum center pull brakes running on dimpled chrome steel
> > rims. I'd call them inadequate. The brake arms were rather thin, and the
> > brakes howled terribly despite my efforts to toe them in.
> >
> > But the biggest inadequacy showed up on a day my wife and I were riding
> > in a downpour. We descended the short steep hill in front of our lot,
> > intending to slow as usual and turn right and into our driveway. We
> > actually sailed on at least 50 feet beyond the turn, maybe more.
> > Squeezing full strength did nothing to slow us. (I understand those
> > dimples served as reservoirs for water.)
> >
> > Since then, the brakes I've used have been much better, but the original
> > long reach center pulls on my Raleigh were pretty weak. I replaced them
> > with cantilevers. Those and all subsequent brakes (mostly cantilevers)
> > have been fine.
> Maybe my bike mechanic skills are not up to speed, so to speak. But how do you replace long reach center pull brakes (mounted with a hole through the fork crown or the seatstay bridge) with cantilever brakes (mounted on brazed on studs on each fork leg or on the seatstays)?

By brazing on cantilever studs. I first fabricated a fixture to space and align the studs properly.

- Frank Krygowski

On 3/7/2022 5:58 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Sunday, March 6, 2022 at 8:14:12 PM UTC-6, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 3/6/2022 6:00 PM, John B. wrote:
>>> On Sun, 06 Mar 2022 10:02:24 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 3/5/2022 8:48 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>> On 3/5/2022 3:02 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well, in my book the ease of modulation is where it is at.
>>>>>> Disks are simply too powerful and too easy to lock up.
>>>>>> Once time over the bars and you would never like disks again.
>>>>>
>>>>> I agree with that. At least for road riding, I think it
>>>>> should require a fairly hard lever force to lock up a brake.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm with you in principle but humans adapt such that 'hard
>>>> lever force' is a squishy value.
>>>>
>>>> Riders with spoon brakes probably called the first calipers
>>>> 'grabby' in the same way that Consumer Reports, when
>>>> reviewing a selection of three speed bicycles (1974? 1975?),
>>>> singled out the only quality machine, Raleigh Sports, as
>>>> 'unacceptable' due to excessive brake response. (all the
>>>> other machines tested were XMart BSOs with crappy brakes)
>>>
>>> With the exception of the Japanese bike with the "rod" brakes I have
>>> never owned a bicycle that didn't have what I considered as adequate
>>> brakes. Yes I may have has to "fiddle" with them a bit or change the
>>> brake pads but never inadequate.
>>>
>>> I might add that the "strongest" brakes I ever used were Vee brakes on
>>> one particular bike that would stop either or both wheels from turning
>>> while coasting down a hill at a guessed 25 MPH. Can you have "more"
>>> breaking then the ability to stop the wheel from turning?
>>>
>>> All of which isn't an argument that you shouldn't use disc brakes, or
>>> dragging your feet for that matter, to stop, if you want to (:-)
>> My very first "10 speed" (that low end Staiger I mentioned) had Balila
>> long reach aluminum center pull brakes running on dimpled chrome steel
>> rims. I'd call them inadequate. The brake arms were rather thin, and the
>> brakes howled terribly despite my efforts to toe them in.
>>
>> But the biggest inadequacy showed up on a day my wife and I were riding
>> in a downpour. We descended the short steep hill in front of our lot,
>> intending to slow as usual and turn right and into our driveway. We
>> actually sailed on at least 50 feet beyond the turn, maybe more.
>> Squeezing full strength did nothing to slow us. (I understand those
>> dimples served as reservoirs for water.)
>>
>> Since then, the brakes I've used have been much better, but the original
>> long reach center pulls on my Raleigh were pretty weak. I replaced them
>> with cantilevers. Those and all subsequent brakes (mostly cantilevers)
>> have been fine.
>
> Maybe my bike mechanic skills are not up to speed, so to speak. But how do you replace long reach center pull brakes (mounted with a hole through the fork crown or the seatstay bridge) with cantilever brakes (mounted on brazed on studs on each fork leg or on the seatstays)?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>
>> --
>> - Frank Krygowski

An hour of setup and brazing. And cantilevers are cheap too.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On 3/6/2022 2:17 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>> On Saturday, March 5, 2022 at 9:02:33 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>
>>> Well, in my book the ease of modulation is where it is at. Disks are
>>> simply too powerful and too easy to lock up. Once time over the bars
>>> and you would never like disks again.
>>
>> 95% of the hydro disk users disagree with you.
>
> Fashion.
>

No certainly the roadies I mix with, the desire for better brakes, after
all most will have at some point used a MTB and thought I’d like some on my
road bike please.

And it’s not recent, had that sort of conversation with folks going back
well over decade now.

Same goes with stuff like gravel bikes, this has been something picked up
by industry but not industry lead.

Roger Merriman

On Tuesday, March 8, 2022 at 12:02:04 PM UTC, Roger Merriman wrote:
> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> > On 3/6/2022 2:17 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> >> On Saturday, March 5, 2022 at 9:02:33 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Well, in my book the ease of modulation is where it is at. Disks are
> >>> simply too powerful and too easy to lock up. Once time over the bars
> >>> and you would never like disks again.
> >>
> >> 95% of the hydro disk users disagree with you.
> >
> > Fashion.
> >
> No certainly the roadies I mix with, the desire for better brakes, after
> all most will have at some point used a MTB and thought I’d like some on my
> road bike please.
>
> And it’s not recent, had that sort of conversation with folks going back
> well over decade now.
>
> Same goes with stuff like gravel bikes, this has been something picked up
> by industry but not industry lead.
>
> Roger Merman
>
The problem with some of the desires and comments here is that they float uneasily between ignorance and impracticality and an adverse cost-benefit rating. I'd like to know, for instance, what made the bike Frankie-Boy claims to have brazed mounts onto for different brakes worth the work except nostalgia and sentiment*.
>
I suspect that very likely Franki-boy's bike, after he bodged it up, would be worth less than if he sold it as a painstakingly restored classic.
_ Andre Jute
*Both of which I rate highly, but Krygowski, who is always bragging about being an engineer as if getting a diploma was the central event in his life, cannot approve of without being a hypocrite.

Am 08.03.2022 um 00:08 schrieb John B.:
> On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 17:16:00 +0100, Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de>
> wrote:
>
>> Am 06.03.2022 um 17:29 schrieb Frank Krygowski:
>>> On 3/6/2022 2:45 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>
>>>> The biggest part besides technique is getting used to the brakes. All
>>>> hydro disks I use and have used have excellent modulation. This week I
>>>> had my first ride of the season on my road bike with rim brakes and CF
>>>> rims. They really suck compared to the hydro disk brakes on my winter
>>>> bikes (cross and gravel). Even with those brakes I got used to within
>>>> a couple of minutes.
>>>
>>> Adaptation is certainly possible. And I imagine a person riding only one
>>> bike (or only one bike per season) would quickly adapt for ordinary work.
>>>
>>> I'd be more concerned about a person with multiple bikes, and about
>>> emergency stops. For example, a person who had spent eight months riding
>>> with rim brakes and CF rims would be used to squeezing quite hard to
>>> stop. If that person then switched to a "winter bike" with touchy discs,
>>> then immediately had a car run a stop sign in front of him, I'd expect
>>> he'd overwork the front brake. (That's assuming the bikes were not
>>> hugely different otherwise - as in a heavy mountain bike with straight
>>> bars vs. a light road bike with drops.)
>>
>> I don't think even this is any issue. Once you've learned proper
>> braking techniques, you can handle everything.
>>
>> The minimal variant is
>> - keep both hands on the handle bar (80%+ of brake crash victims fail here)
>> - brake hard with front brake and soft with rear brake (hard both brakes
>> if you don't know which is which)
>> - release brakes once you feel the rear wheel lift (this is where the
>> others fail)
>> - repeat if necessary
>>
>> Once you expect the rear wheel to lift and know that releaseing the
>> brakes is the best reaction, brake modulation is only needed for
>> optimization, not for crash avoidance.
>
> I would certainly agree with you in a rational well thought out
> instance but my experience, admittedly in a single emergency
> stop/crash, was the taxi stopped in front of me, I grabbed the brakes,
> the rear wheel lifted and I hit the taxi, all in the matter of a
> second or two.

Yes, by hitting the taxi you were unable to avoid a crash. My one
mergency brake situaion was forgetting to slow down before a "yield",
and suddenly a car came round the corner on the main road. I grabbed
the brakes, the rear whell lifted, I released the brakes and the
accident was avoided (probably a more gentle aplication of the brakes
would have been sufficient).

On 3/8/2022 7:02 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> On 3/6/2022 2:17 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>> On Saturday, March 5, 2022 at 9:02:33 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Well, in my book the ease of modulation is where it is at. Disks are
>>>> simply too powerful and too easy to lock up. Once time over the bars
>>>> and you would never like disks again.
>>>
>>> 95% of the hydro disk users disagree with you.
>>
>> Fashion.
>>
>
> No certainly the roadies I mix with, the desire for better brakes, after
> all most will have at some point used a MTB and thought I’d like some on my
> road bike please.

Our cohorts differ, then. Those in my bike club seem to never ride
mountain bikes - at least, I can't remember the last time anyone talked
about doing that. (Our club used to have some mountain bike rides in the
schedule, including many I led, but that's long ago.)

Yet one of our best friends said "I plan to buy just one more bike
before I die. I want a bike with disc brakes." I didn't ask why, because
in countless hours riding with her, I never heard a bad word about her
brakes.

Other club members have not mentioned discs, but when they went to buy
new bikes, returned to the rides with discs. It didn't surprise me,
because on new bikes in shops around here, discs are default. The
industry has made it so.

> And it’s not recent, had that sort of conversation with folks going back
> well over decade now.

On road bikes in our club, discs appeared first on one guy's bike maybe
five years ago. (He's also got a huge handlebar bag and hammered
aluminum fenders, but those didn't catch on.) The other disc bikes
popped up about two or three years ago. But most people still ride rim
brakes, and again, I've never heard a complaint about them.

> Same goes with stuff like gravel bikes, this has been something picked up
> by industry but not industry lead.

Sorry, I disagree on both counts. Nobody I know was asking for a bike to
ride on gravel, and those who recently bought gravel bikes never mention
using them on gravel. Not that I disagree with the concept of wider
tires, BTW.

Similarly, nobody was asking for disc brakes, or for any improvement in
their braking. It was 100% a non-topic. But maybe five years ago, people
started casually mentioning that "disc brakes are better." No details -
just "better."

To me, that's a direct response to marketing, just as with N+1 rear
cogs, daytime running lights, funny foam hats, reduced spoke counts,
aero bike bits and more. All are marketing responses to non-problems.

People browse through a magazine and see what's touted in the "reviews"
(which are mostly advertising) or other ads. They read the articles
touting theoretical improvements, then they see the exact thing sitting
in the bike shop and cave in to buy it.

And their riding experience is exactly the same as before.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Tuesday, March 8, 2022 at 11:56:51 AM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 3/8/2022 7:02 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> > Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >> On 3/6/2022 2:17 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> >>> On Saturday, March 5, 2022 at 9:02:33 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Well, in my book the ease of modulation is where it is at. Disks are
> >>>> simply too powerful and too easy to lock up. Once time over the bars
> >>>> and you would never like disks again.
> >>>
> >>> 95% of the hydro disk users disagree with you.
> >>
> >> Fashion.
> >>
> >
> > No certainly the roadies I mix with, the desire for better brakes, after
> > all most will have at some point used a MTB and thought I’d like some on my
> > road bike please.
> Our cohorts differ, then. Those in my bike club seem to never ride
> mountain bikes - at least, I can't remember the last time anyone talked
> about doing that. (Our club used to have some mountain bike rides in the
> schedule, including many I led, but that's long ago.)
>
> Yet one of our best friends said "I plan to buy just one more bike
> before I die. I want a bike with disc brakes." I didn't ask why, because
> in countless hours riding with her, I never heard a bad word about her
> brakes.
>
> Other club members have not mentioned discs, but when they went to buy
> new bikes, returned to the rides with discs. It didn't surprise me,
> because on new bikes in shops around here, discs are default. The
> industry has made it so.
> > And it’s not recent, had that sort of conversation with folks going back
> > well over decade now.
> On road bikes in our club, discs appeared first on one guy's bike maybe
> five years ago. (He's also got a huge handlebar bag and hammered
> aluminum fenders, but those didn't catch on.) The other disc bikes
> popped up about two or three years ago. But most people still ride rim
> brakes, and again, I've never heard a complaint about them.
> > Same goes with stuff like gravel bikes, this has been something picked up
> > by industry but not industry lead.
> Sorry, I disagree on both counts. Nobody I know was asking for a bike to
> ride on gravel, and those who recently bought gravel bikes never mention
> using them on gravel. Not that I disagree with the concept of wider
> tires, BTW.
>
> Similarly, nobody was asking for disc brakes, or for any improvement in
> their braking. It was 100% a non-topic. But maybe five years ago, people
> started casually mentioning that "disc brakes are better." No details -
> just "better."

Maybe no one you know of, but in the MTB world better braking has been a quest since before the discipline became a sanctioned sport. I remember complaints of excessive pad wear on longer off-road treks (suggestions to bring spare pads), flex of seatstays robbing power, harsh rim wear - all related to braking issues.

>
> To me, that's a direct response to marketing, just as with N+1 rear
> cogs, daytime running lights, funny foam hats, reduced spoke counts,
> aero bike bits and more. All are marketing responses to non-problems.

Braking _was_ a problem, and discs were the solution. Granted, I still have calipers on all my road bikes and have absolutely no problem with them, but My last MTB purchase was disc only, and the one before that was disc-ready. I'm running discs on that now, and I've converted my Ti hardtail which was canti-equipped to disc.

>
> People browse through a magazine and see what's touted in the "reviews"
> (which are mostly advertising) or other ads. They read the articles
> touting theoretical improvements, then they see the exact thing sitting
> in the bike shop and cave in to buy it.

If you're going to insist that you've never been given any details, I'm going to insist you weren't paying attention, (possibly willfully). Here's a small smattering of the arguments:

https://blog.mapmyrun.com/rim-versus-disc-brake-debate-explained/
https://www.cyclingnews.com/features/disc-brakes-vs-rim-brakes/
https://www.realbuzz.com/articles-interests/cycling/article/the-pros-and-cons-of-using-disc-brakes-on-a-road-bike/
https://www.bikeradar.com/features/road-disc-brakes-everything-you-need-to-know/
https://roadbikeaction.com/the-real-reason-disc-brakes-are-better-than-rim-brakes/
https://www.ribblecycles.co.uk/blog/disc-brake-vs-rim-brake/

However, a rational argument can still be made for rim brakes
https://www.renehersecycles.com/myth-12-disc-brakes-work-better-than-rim-brakes/

>
> And their riding experience is exactly the same as before.

Disc brakes do work better. However, as I said, I still run rim brakes on all my road bikes, and have no intention on changing that - they work fine for me. Off road it's a completely different story. The power, control, modulation, feel and consistency you get from a disc brake off-road is _seriously_ a game changing experience. In all - save a very few - conditions, rim brakes pale in comparison.

Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On 3/8/2022 7:02 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> On 3/6/2022 2:17 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>> On Saturday, March 5, 2022 at 9:02:33 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, in my book the ease of modulation is where it is at. Disks are
>>>>> simply too powerful and too easy to lock up. Once time over the bars
>>>>> and you would never like disks again.
>>>>
>>>> 95% of the hydro disk users disagree with you.
>>>
>>> Fashion.
>>>
>>
>> No certainly the roadies I mix with, the desire for better brakes, after
>> all most will have at some point used a MTB and thought I’d like some on my
>> road bike please.
>
> Our cohorts differ, then. Those in my bike club seem to never ride
> mountain bikes - at least, I can't remember the last time anyone talked
> about doing that. (Our club used to have some mountain bike rides in the
> schedule, including many I led, but that's long ago.)
>
> Yet one of our best friends said "I plan to buy just one more bike
> before I die. I want a bike with disc brakes." I didn't ask why, because
> in countless hours riding with her, I never heard a bad word about her
> brakes.
>
> Other club members have not mentioned discs, but when they went to buy
> new bikes, returned to the rides with discs. It didn't surprise me,
> because on new bikes in shops around here, discs are default. The
> industry has made it so.
>
>> And it’s not recent, had that sort of conversation with folks going back
>> well over decade now.
>
> On road bikes in our club, discs appeared first on one guy's bike maybe
> five years ago. (He's also got a huge handlebar bag and hammered
> aluminum fenders, but those didn't catch on.) The other disc bikes
> popped up about two or three years ago. But most people still ride rim
> brakes, and again, I've never heard a complaint about them.

Depends on the circles you socialise with, the club which has has a social
bent, though does have some racers, is a fair number of disks about, and
not just with the folks with Gravel bikes.

Go to roadie central such as Richmond Park or Regents and folks doing laps
ie racing snakes most will be on rims still.

>
>> Same goes with stuff like gravel bikes, this has been something picked up
>> by industry but not industry lead.
>
> Sorry, I disagree on both counts. Nobody I know was asking for a bike to
> ride on gravel, and those who recently bought gravel bikes never mention
> using them on gravel. Not that I disagree with the concept of wider
> tires, BTW.
>
Folks have been riding CX bikes in the woods and what not, and certainly
10+ years ago there where bikes being sold that really where intended for
such, and not racing.

At least in the Europe, in America the Gravel racing seemed to kick in, and
i’m fairly sure CX is less of a thing.

> Similarly, nobody was asking for disc brakes, or for any improvement in
> their braking. It was 100% a non-topic. But maybe five years ago, people
> started casually mentioning that "disc brakes are better." No details -
> just "better."
>
That rather suggests that your group is fairly homogeneous. For example in
my cycling social I have folks who have raced in national championships,
and other epic feats, and folks who find the social ride to the cafe and
back fairly epic! And folks like myself who tend to the off road and have
that sort of experience and so on.

> To me, that's a direct response to marketing, just as with N+1 rear
> cogs, daytime running lights, funny foam hats, reduced spoke counts,
> aero bike bits and more. All are marketing responses to non-problems.
>
> People browse through a magazine and see what's touted in the "reviews"
> (which are mostly advertising) or other ads. They read the articles
> touting theoretical improvements, then they see the exact thing sitting
> in the bike shop and cave in to buy it.
>
> And their riding experience is exactly the same as before.

Certainly for myself the Gravel bike vs the CX bike I had before and the
road bikes before that, quite a different experience.

Wider tires mean your far less worried about potholes and the like, and
even on road steep wet stuff, is lot more fun when you don’t have to haul
on the brakes or worry how hot they are getting etc, uk on the whole has
lots of short sharp than long gradual gradients.

Roger Merriman.
>

On Tue, 8 Mar 2022 11:02:26 -0800 (PST), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
<funkmasterxx@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On Tuesday, March 8, 2022 at 11:56:51 AM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 3/8/2022 7:02 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> > Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> >> On 3/6/2022 2:17 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>> >>> On Saturday, March 5, 2022 at 9:02:33 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Well, in my book the ease of modulation is where it is at. Disks are
>> >>>> simply too powerful and too easy to lock up. Once time over the bars
>> >>>> and you would never like disks again.
>> >>>
>> >>> 95% of the hydro disk users disagree with you.
>> >>
>> >> Fashion.
>> >>
>> >
>> > No certainly the roadies I mix with, the desire for better brakes, after
>> > all most will have at some point used a MTB and thought I’d like some on my
>> > road bike please.
>> Our cohorts differ, then. Those in my bike club seem to never ride
>> mountain bikes - at least, I can't remember the last time anyone talked
>> about doing that. (Our club used to have some mountain bike rides in the
>> schedule, including many I led, but that's long ago.)
>>
>> Yet one of our best friends said "I plan to buy just one more bike
>> before I die. I want a bike with disc brakes." I didn't ask why, because
>> in countless hours riding with her, I never heard a bad word about her
>> brakes.
>>
>> Other club members have not mentioned discs, but when they went to buy
>> new bikes, returned to the rides with discs. It didn't surprise me,
>> because on new bikes in shops around here, discs are default. The
>> industry has made it so.
>> > And it’s not recent, had that sort of conversation with folks going back
>> > well over decade now.
>> On road bikes in our club, discs appeared first on one guy's bike maybe
>> five years ago. (He's also got a huge handlebar bag and hammered
>> aluminum fenders, but those didn't catch on.) The other disc bikes
>> popped up about two or three years ago. But most people still ride rim
>> brakes, and again, I've never heard a complaint about them.
>> > Same goes with stuff like gravel bikes, this has been something picked up
>> > by industry but not industry lead.
>> Sorry, I disagree on both counts. Nobody I know was asking for a bike to
>> ride on gravel, and those who recently bought gravel bikes never mention
>> using them on gravel. Not that I disagree with the concept of wider
>> tires, BTW.
>>
>> Similarly, nobody was asking for disc brakes, or for any improvement in
>> their braking. It was 100% a non-topic. But maybe five years ago, people
>> started casually mentioning that "disc brakes are better." No details -
>> just "better."
>
>Maybe no one you know of, but in the MTB world better braking has been a quest since before the discipline became a sanctioned sport. I remember complaints of excessive pad wear on longer off-road treks (suggestions to bring spare pads), flex of seatstays robbing power, harsh rim wear - all related to braking issues.
>
>>
>> To me, that's a direct response to marketing, just as with N+1 rear
>> cogs, daytime running lights, funny foam hats, reduced spoke counts,
>> aero bike bits and more. All are marketing responses to non-problems.
>
>Braking _was_ a problem, and discs were the solution. Granted, I still have calipers on all my road bikes and have absolutely no problem with them, but My last MTB purchase was disc only, and the one before that was disc-ready. I'm running discs on that now, and I've converted my Ti hardtail which was canti-equipped to disc.
>
>
>>
>> People browse through a magazine and see what's touted in the "reviews"
>> (which are mostly advertising) or other ads. They read the articles
>> touting theoretical improvements, then they see the exact thing sitting
>> in the bike shop and cave in to buy it.
>
>If you're going to insist that you've never been given any details, I'm going to insist you weren't paying attention, (possibly willfully). Here's a small smattering of the arguments:
>
>https://blog.mapmyrun.com/rim-versus-disc-brake-debate-explained/
>https://www.cyclingnews.com/features/disc-brakes-vs-rim-brakes/
>https://www.realbuzz.com/articles-interests/cycling/article/the-pros-and-cons-of-using-disc-brakes-on-a-road-bike/
>https://www.bikeradar.com/features/road-disc-brakes-everything-you-need-to-know/
>https://roadbikeaction.com/the-real-reason-disc-brakes-are-better-than-rim-brakes/
>https://www.ribblecycles.co.uk/blog/disc-brake-vs-rim-brake/
>
>However, a rational argument can still be made for rim brakes
>https://www.renehersecycles.com/myth-12-disc-brakes-work-better-than-rim-brakes/
>
>>
>> And their riding experience is exactly the same as before.
>
>Disc brakes do work better. However, as I said, I still run rim brakes on all my road bikes, and have no intention on changing that - they work fine for me. Off road it's a completely different story. The power, control, modulation, feel and consistency you get from a disc brake off-road is _seriously_ a game changing experience. In all - save a very few - conditions, rim brakes pale in comparison.

On the other hand we were shopping at a large department store
yesterday and I wandered over to look at the bicycles. These were all
in the "department store" quality range, 5 speed cassettes, etc. and
they ALL had disc brakes,
Which might lead one to believe that discs are the cheap way to build
bikes (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 3/8/2022 2:02 PM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, March 8, 2022 at 11:56:51 AM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 3/8/2022 7:02 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>> On 3/6/2022 2:17 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>>> On Saturday, March 5, 2022 at 9:02:33 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well, in my book the ease of modulation is where it is at. Disks are
>>>>>> simply too powerful and too easy to lock up. Once time over the bars
>>>>>> and you would never like disks again.
>>>>>
>>>>> 95% of the hydro disk users disagree with you.
>>>>
>>>> Fashion.
>>>>
>>>
>>> No certainly the roadies I mix with, the desire for better brakes, after
>>> all most will have at some point used a MTB and thought I’d like some on my
>>> road bike please.
>> Our cohorts differ, then. Those in my bike club seem to never ride
>> mountain bikes - at least, I can't remember the last time anyone talked
>> about doing that. (Our club used to have some mountain bike rides in the
>> schedule, including many I led, but that's long ago.)
>>
>> Yet one of our best friends said "I plan to buy just one more bike
>> before I die. I want a bike with disc brakes." I didn't ask why, because
>> in countless hours riding with her, I never heard a bad word about her
>> brakes.
>>
>> Other club members have not mentioned discs, but when they went to buy
>> new bikes, returned to the rides with discs. It didn't surprise me,
>> because on new bikes in shops around here, discs are default. The
>> industry has made it so.
>>> And it’s not recent, had that sort of conversation with folks going back
>>> well over decade now.
>> On road bikes in our club, discs appeared first on one guy's bike maybe
>> five years ago. (He's also got a huge handlebar bag and hammered
>> aluminum fenders, but those didn't catch on.) The other disc bikes
>> popped up about two or three years ago. But most people still ride rim
>> brakes, and again, I've never heard a complaint about them.
>>> Same goes with stuff like gravel bikes, this has been something picked up
>>> by industry but not industry lead.
>> Sorry, I disagree on both counts. Nobody I know was asking for a bike to
>> ride on gravel, and those who recently bought gravel bikes never mention
>> using them on gravel. Not that I disagree with the concept of wider
>> tires, BTW.
>>
>> Similarly, nobody was asking for disc brakes, or for any improvement in
>> their braking. It was 100% a non-topic. But maybe five years ago, people
>> started casually mentioning that "disc brakes are better." No details -
>> just "better."
>
> Maybe no one you know of, but in the MTB world better braking has been a quest since before the discipline became a sanctioned sport. I remember complaints of excessive pad wear on longer off-road treks (suggestions to bring spare pads), flex of seatstays robbing power, harsh rim wear - all related to braking issues.

The MTB world is not at all what I'm discussing. I can certainly
appreciate the benefits of discs on a mountain bike, even though I've
never needed them. (As one example, I never did enough muddy mileage on
a mountain bike to wear out a rim, but I've seen others wear them out.)

>> To me, that's a direct response to marketing, just as with N+1 rear
>> cogs, daytime running lights, funny foam hats, reduced spoke counts,
>> aero bike bits and more. All are marketing responses to non-problems.
>
> Braking _was_ a problem, and discs were the solution. Granted, I still have calipers on all my road bikes and have absolutely no problem with them, but My last MTB purchase was disc only, and the one before that was disc-ready. I'm running discs on that now, and I've converted my Ti hardtail which was canti-equipped to disc.

I'm assuming your "braking _was_ a problem" applies only to mountain
bikes, since like me, you have no problem with road calipers.

>> People browse through a magazine and see what's touted in the "reviews"
>> (which are mostly advertising) or other ads. They read the articles
>> touting theoretical improvements, then they see the exact thing sitting
>> in the bike shop and cave in to buy it.
>
> If you're going to insist that you've never been given any details, I'm going to insist you weren't paying attention, (possibly willfully). Here's a small smattering of the arguments:
>
> https://blog.mapmyrun.com/rim-versus-disc-brake-debate-explained/
> https://www.cyclingnews.com/features/disc-brakes-vs-rim-brakes/
> https://www.realbuzz.com/articles-interests/cycling/article/the-pros-and-cons-of-using-disc-brakes-on-a-road-bike/
> https://www.bikeradar.com/features/road-disc-brakes-everything-you-need-to-know/
> https://roadbikeaction.com/the-real-reason-disc-brakes-are-better-than-rim-brakes/
> https://www.ribblecycles.co.uk/blog/disc-brake-vs-rim-brake/
>
> However, a rational argument can still be made for rim brakes
> https://www.renehersecycles.com/myth-12-disc-brakes-work-better-than-rim-brakes/

Don't misunderstand me. I've certainly been given details. We've
discussed them here. (And there was nothing new in those articles,
although I detected bias and inaccuracy in some of them.)

My point is that non-denizens of r.b.tech don't read such articles, or
don't read them critically. If they did, I think they'd get as far as
the first sub-headline, "Why discs are better," and stop reading. Their
brains stop at "Discs are better."

Most consumers buy what's fashionable and easily available. That applies
to bikes, motor vehicles, clothing, coffee (or coffee makers), toys and
more. And those consumers who find something new and trendy to buy tend
to assume it's "better" and will find ways to prove it, to demonstrate
they're more sophisticated than the poor masses who still use the old
fashion.

Which, I suppose, does a good job of keeping our consumer economy going.
My 50 year old (!) utility bike is a sin against ... well, whoever the
patron saint of consumerism happens to be!

>> And their riding experience is exactly the same as before.
>
> Disc brakes do work better. However, as I said, I still run rim brakes on all my road bikes, and have no intention on changing that - they work fine for me.

They have always worked fine for almost everybody.

As always, use what you like. But when we discuss these things, we
should look at disadvantages as well as advantages.

--
- Frank Krygowski

John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 8 Mar 2022 11:02:26 -0800 (PST), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
> <funkmasterxx@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Tuesday, March 8, 2022 at 11:56:51 AM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 3/8/2022 7:02 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>> On 3/6/2022 2:17 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>>>> On Saturday, March 5, 2022 at 9:02:33 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well, in my book the ease of modulation is where it is at. Disks are
>>>>>>> simply too powerful and too easy to lock up. Once time over the bars
>>>>>>> and you would never like disks again.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 95% of the hydro disk users disagree with you.
>>>>>
>>>>> Fashion.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> No certainly the roadies I mix with, the desire for better brakes, after
>>>> all most will have at some point used a MTB and thought I’d like some on my
>>>> road bike please.
>>> Our cohorts differ, then. Those in my bike club seem to never ride
>>> mountain bikes - at least, I can't remember the last time anyone talked
>>> about doing that. (Our club used to have some mountain bike rides in the
>>> schedule, including many I led, but that's long ago.)
>>>
>>> Yet one of our best friends said "I plan to buy just one more bike
>>> before I die. I want a bike with disc brakes." I didn't ask why, because
>>> in countless hours riding with her, I never heard a bad word about her
>>> brakes.
>>>
>>> Other club members have not mentioned discs, but when they went to buy
>>> new bikes, returned to the rides with discs. It didn't surprise me,
>>> because on new bikes in shops around here, discs are default. The
>>> industry has made it so.
>>>> And it’s not recent, had that sort of conversation with folks going back
>>>> well over decade now.
>>> On road bikes in our club, discs appeared first on one guy's bike maybe
>>> five years ago. (He's also got a huge handlebar bag and hammered
>>> aluminum fenders, but those didn't catch on.) The other disc bikes
>>> popped up about two or three years ago. But most people still ride rim
>>> brakes, and again, I've never heard a complaint about them.
>>>> Same goes with stuff like gravel bikes, this has been something picked up
>>>> by industry but not industry lead.
>>> Sorry, I disagree on both counts. Nobody I know was asking for a bike to
>>> ride on gravel, and those who recently bought gravel bikes never mention
>>> using them on gravel. Not that I disagree with the concept of wider
>>> tires, BTW.
>>>
>>> Similarly, nobody was asking for disc brakes, or for any improvement in
>>> their braking. It was 100% a non-topic. But maybe five years ago, people
>>> started casually mentioning that "disc brakes are better." No details -
>>> just "better."
>>
>> Maybe no one you know of, but in the MTB world better braking has been a
>> quest since before the discipline became a sanctioned sport. I remember
>> complaints of excessive pad wear on longer off-road treks (suggestions
>> to bring spare pads), flex of seatstays robbing power, harsh rim wear -
>> all related to braking issues.
>>
>>>
>>> To me, that's a direct response to marketing, just as with N+1 rear
>>> cogs, daytime running lights, funny foam hats, reduced spoke counts,
>>> aero bike bits and more. All are marketing responses to non-problems.
>>
>> Braking _was_ a problem, and discs were the solution. Granted, I still
>> have calipers on all my road bikes and have absolutely no problem with
>> them, but My last MTB purchase was disc only, and the one before that
>> was disc-ready. I'm running discs on that now, and I've converted my Ti
>> hardtail which was canti-equipped to disc.
>>
>>
>>>
>>> People browse through a magazine and see what's touted in the "reviews"
>>> (which are mostly advertising) or other ads. They read the articles
>>> touting theoretical improvements, then they see the exact thing sitting
>>> in the bike shop and cave in to buy it.
>>
>> If you're going to insist that you've never been given any details, I'm
>> going to insist you weren't paying attention, (possibly willfully).
>> Here's a small smattering of the arguments:
>>
>> https://blog.mapmyrun.com/rim-versus-disc-brake-debate-explained/
>> https://www.cyclingnews.com/features/disc-brakes-vs-rim-brakes/
>> https://www.realbuzz.com/articles-interests/cycling/article/the-pros-and-cons-of-using-disc-brakes-on-a-road-bike/
>> https://www.bikeradar.com/features/road-disc-brakes-everything-you-need-to-know/
>> https://roadbikeaction.com/the-real-reason-disc-brakes-are-better-than-rim-brakes/
>> https://www.ribblecycles.co.uk/blog/disc-brake-vs-rim-brake/
>>
>> However, a rational argument can still be made for rim brakes
>> https://www.renehersecycles.com/myth-12-disc-brakes-work-better-than-rim-brakes/
>>
>>>
>>> And their riding experience is exactly the same as before.
>>
>> Disc brakes do work better. However, as I said, I still run rim brakes
>> on all my road bikes, and have no intention on changing that - they work
>> fine for me. Off road it's a completely different story. The power,
>> control, modulation, feel and consistency you get from a disc brake
>> off-road is _seriously_ a game changing experience. In all - save a
>> very few - conditions, rim brakes pale in comparison.
>
> On the other hand we were shopping at a large department store
> yesterday and I wandered over to look at the bicycles. These were all
> in the "department store" quality range, 5 speed cassettes, etc. and
> they ALL had disc brakes,
> Which might lead one to believe that discs are the cheap way to build
> bikes (:-)

Possibly in regards to the cheap cable pulled ones, fairly ineffective, get
them on all sorts of non performance related stuff like as a hand brake on
wheelchairs and so on.

With that sort of kit yes Frank is on the money it that it’s purely
looks/fashion ie to look better than it is.

GCN (you tube channel) took one down a fairly big hill recently which it
essentially failed at, totally overheated etc.

Roger Merriman