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tech / rec.bicycles.tech / Re: Responsive frame

SubjectAuthor
* Responsive frameDieter Britz
+- Re: Responsive frameTom Kunich
+* Re: Responsive frameAMuzi
|`- Re: Responsive framesms
+- Re: Responsive frameRoger Merriman
`* Re: Responsive frameAndre Jute
 `* Re: Responsive frameDieter Britz
  +* Re: Responsive framesms
  |`* Re: Responsive frameAMuzi
  | +- Re: Responsive framesms
  | `* Re: Responsive frameTom Kunich
  |  `- Re: Responsive frameAndre Jute
  +* Re: Responsive frameAMuzi
  |+* Re: Responsive frameFrank Krygowski
  ||+- Re: Responsive frameAMuzi
  ||`* Re: Responsive frameAMuzi
  || +- Re: Responsive frameTom Kunich
  || `* Re: Responsive frameFrank Krygowski
  ||  `* Re: Responsive frameAMuzi
  ||   +* Re: Responsive frameSir Ridesalot
  ||   |`* Re: Responsive frameAMuzi
  ||   | `- Re: Responsive frameAndre Jute
  ||   +* Re: Responsive frameFrank Krygowski
  ||   |`* Re: Responsive frameAMuzi
  ||   | +- Re: Responsive frameFrank Krygowski
  ||   | `* Re: Responsive frameTom Kunich
  ||   |  `* Re: Responsive frameFrank Krygowski
  ||   |   `* Re: Responsive frameAndre Jute
  ||   |    `* Re: Responsive frameTom Kunich
  ||   |     +* Re: Responsive frameAndre Jute
  ||   |     |`- Re: Responsive frameTom Kunich
  ||   |     +* Re: Responsive frameLou Holtman
  ||   |     |+* Re: Responsive frameLou Holtman
  ||   |     ||`* Re: Responsive frameAMuzi
  ||   |     || `* Re: Responsive frameLou Holtman
  ||   |     ||  +- Re: Responsive frameTom Kunich
  ||   |     ||  `- Re: Responsive frameFrank Krygowski
  ||   |     |`* Re: Responsive frameLou Holtman
  ||   |     | +* Re: Responsive frameLou Holtman
  ||   |     | |+- Re: Responsive frameJeff Liebermann
  ||   |     | |`* Re: Responsive frameTom Kunich
  ||   |     | | `* Re: Responsive frameJeff Liebermann
  ||   |     | |  `* Re: Responsive frameAMuzi
  ||   |     | |   `* Re: Responsive frameJeff Liebermann
  ||   |     | |    +- Re: Responsive frameAMuzi
  ||   |     | |    `* Re: Responsive frameFrank Krygowski
  ||   |     | |     +* Re: Responsive frameAMuzi
  ||   |     | |     |+* Re: Responsive frameJeff Liebermann
  ||   |     | |     ||+- Re: Responsive framerussellseaton1@yahoo.com
  ||   |     | |     ||`- Re: Responsive frameAMuzi
  ||   |     | |     |`- Re: Responsive frameFrank Krygowski
  ||   |     | |     `* Re: Responsive frameJeff Liebermann
  ||   |     | |      +* Re: Responsive frameJohn B.
  ||   |     | |      |`* Re: Responsive frameFrank Krygowski
  ||   |     | |      | +- Re: Responsive frameAMuzi
  ||   |     | |      | `- Re: Responsive frameJohn B.
  ||   |     | |      `- Re: Responsive frameFrank Krygowski
  ||   |     | `* Re: Responsive frameAndre Jute
  ||   |     |  `* Re: Responsive frameTom Kunich
  ||   |     |   +- Re: Responsive frameFrank Krygowski
  ||   |     |   `- Re: Responsive frameJohn B.
  ||   |     `* Re: Responsive frameFrank Krygowski
  ||   |      `* Re: Responsive frameAMuzi
  ||   |       `- Re: Responsive frameFrank Krygowski
  ||   `- Re: Responsive frameAndre Jute
  |`- Re: Responsive frameJohn B.
  `* Re: Responsive frameAndre Jute
   `* Re: Responsive frameAMuzi
    `- Re: Responsive frameAndre Jute

Pages:123
Re: Responsive frame

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Subject: Re: Responsive frame
From: cyclin...@gmail.com (Tom Kunich)
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 by: Tom Kunich - Thu, 10 Mar 2022 17:33 UTC

On Wednesday, March 9, 2022 at 10:37:03 PM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Thursday, March 10, 2022 at 1:39:47 AM UTC+1, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Wed, 9 Mar 2022 11:03:40 -0800 (PST), Lou Holtman
> > <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > >On Wednesday, March 9, 2022 at 7:43:18 PM UTC+1, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >> Also, the 3 rotational axis are commonly called yaw, pitch, and roll..
> >
> > >Not in my line of work.
> > >Lou
> > Not a problem. In robotics and machining, the rotational axes are a,
> > b, and c. In maritime, aircraft and satellite, they're roll, pitch,
> > and yaw.
> > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_motions>
> > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aircraft_principal_axes>
> > There are also those who favor the Greek letters, alpha, beta, and
> > gamma:
> > <https://i.stack.imgur.com/2b9B5.png>
> > <http://lavalle.pl/vr/node77.html>
> > --
> > Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
> > PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
> > Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
> > Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
> ‘We’ define a X, Y and Z axis and then translation and rotation is also defined. Everyone knows what you mean.

I don't know how you can understand what he means when HE doesn't know what he means. For every motion requiring a different motor, that is an additional axis of motion. Rather than accept that he wants to foolishly talk about X,Y and Z axis as if that had any bearing. He is a stupid person who makes stupid statements. He has never worked in the industry and wants to only argue endlessly which does nothing more than show his own college trained ignorance.

Re: Responsive frame

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From: frkry...@sbcglobal.net (Frank Krygowski)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Responsive frame
Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2022 13:33:04 -0500
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 by: Frank Krygowski - Thu, 10 Mar 2022 18:33 UTC

On 3/10/2022 12:27 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> What this tells me is that those who know medicine PRACTICE medicine and those who don't go into civil service to garner large salaries despite their incompetence. This information was supposed to be public information and it took a group of THOUSANDS of doctors to sue under the Freedom of Information Act to get it release before 2097! What we are seeing is that Frank's favorite belief that we should have socialized medicine means that we should have socialized incompetent medicine. ...

Typical Kunich nonsense!

We just returned from a visit to our Primary Care Physician, who's
actually a friend of mine. Later this week we'll have a visit from an
out-of-state physician relative who trained and worked with this
physician. Both these men have decades of experience PRACTICING medicine
- in contrast to a certain unemployed Californian who seldom kept a job
for over two years.

Today's visit was "Masks required." Both of these physicians are quite
certain that COVID is real and serious. And both have ranted about the
inefficiencies and failings of America's health care system compared to
those of other countries. All of that is in contrast to that certain
Californian's theories and rants.

BTW, one of their main complaints about the U.S. system is the
near-absolute power given to flunkies working for insurance companies.
Our PCP has been repeatedly outraged that tests or medications he
competently prescribes get challenged or denied, in an effort to reduce
insurance company expenses.

Granted, those roadblocks happened only a few times for my wife and me.
Luckily, the insurance package provided to retired professors really is
excellent. There are benefits to being competent in a good job for
longer than two years.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Re: Responsive frame

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From: jef...@cruzio.com (Jeff Liebermann)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Responsive frame
Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2022 12:43:43 -0800
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 by: Jeff Liebermann - Thu, 10 Mar 2022 20:43 UTC

On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 09:33:20 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, March 9, 2022 at 10:37:03 PM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
>> On Thursday, March 10, 2022 at 1:39:47 AM UTC+1, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
>> > On Wed, 9 Mar 2022 11:03:40 -0800 (PST), Lou Holtman
>> > <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > >On Wednesday, March 9, 2022 at 7:43:18 PM UTC+1, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
>> > >> Also, the 3 rotational axis are commonly called yaw, pitch, and roll.
>> >
>> > >Not in my line of work.
>> > >Lou
>> > Not a problem. In robotics and machining, the rotational axes are a,
>> > b, and c. In maritime, aircraft and satellite, they're roll, pitch,
>> > and yaw.
>> > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_motions>
>> > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aircraft_principal_axes>
>> > There are also those who favor the Greek letters, alpha, beta, and
>> > gamma:
>> > <https://i.stack.imgur.com/2b9B5.png>
>> > <http://lavalle.pl/vr/node77.html>

>> ‘We’ define a X, Y and Z axis and then translation and rotation is also defined. Everyone knows what you mean.

>I don't know how you can understand what he means when HE doesn't know what he means. For every motion requiring a different motor, that is an additional axis of motion. Rather than accept that he wants to foolishly talk about X,Y and Z axis as if that had any bearing. He is a stupid person who makes stupid statements. He has never worked in the industry and wants to only argue endlessly which does nothing more than show his own college trained ignorance.

Lou Holman's question to YOU was:

> On Wednesday, March 9, 2022 at 5:06:00 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich .
>> One of the projects I completed had 12 directions of motion.

> 12 direction of motion? I don't understand. I know translation
> in X,Y and Z and rotation Rx, Ry and Rz. I can position and
> orientate an object in a 3 D space using these 6 degrees of
> freedom. What did I miss?
>
> lou

I provided my answer, which you seem to regard as "foolishly talk
about X, Y and Z axis". No problem. You're entitled to your opinion.

So, could you please answer his question about how you implemented 12
degrees of freedom into a blood sample handling device? After all,
the question was addressed to you, not me. Did your project have 12
motors? If so, how were they arranged and how did you program their
motion which presumably involving Euler Angles, which are the basis of
robotic motion control:
<https://robodk.com/blog/robot-euler-angles/>
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euler_angles>
More:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=euler+angles+robotics>

If it makes you feel any better, I had great difficulty learning how
the coordinate systems and coordinate translation/rotation worked in
CNC machining. I can't claim to be even minimally functional at CNC
or robotics programming. At best, I understand the basic principles
and some of the fundamentals. However, since the project you
completed used all 12 directions of motion (commonly known as degrees
of freedom), you should be able to properly explain how it works.

Marginally related drivel on a 3 axis CNC mill conversion:
<http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/CNC-conversion/index.html>
<http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/CNC%20Conversion%20Project/CNC.html>
The vertical mill is a Shizuoka ST-N. KRS servos and drivers. Newker
990(?) controller. It would have been 4 axis, except the owner sold
the rotary indexer. Three of us worked on it over a period of 1.5
years, including a spindle rebuild. The most difficult part was
decoding the manual, which was a rather bad English translation of the
original Chinese. It's been cutting metal (and making a profit) for
the past 5 years.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Re: Responsive frame

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From: am...@yellowjersey.org (AMuzi)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Responsive frame
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 by: AMuzi - Thu, 10 Mar 2022 22:33 UTC

On 3/10/2022 2:43 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 09:33:20 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
> <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Wednesday, March 9, 2022 at 10:37:03 PM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>> On Thursday, March 10, 2022 at 1:39:47 AM UTC+1, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 9 Mar 2022 11:03:40 -0800 (PST), Lou Holtman
>>>> <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Wednesday, March 9, 2022 at 7:43:18 PM UTC+1, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>> Also, the 3 rotational axis are commonly called yaw, pitch, and roll.
>>>>
>>>>> Not in my line of work.
>>>>> Lou
>>>> Not a problem. In robotics and machining, the rotational axes are a,
>>>> b, and c. In maritime, aircraft and satellite, they're roll, pitch,
>>>> and yaw.
>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_motions>
>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aircraft_principal_axes>
>>>> There are also those who favor the Greek letters, alpha, beta, and
>>>> gamma:
>>>> <https://i.stack.imgur.com/2b9B5.png>
>>>> <http://lavalle.pl/vr/node77.html>
>
>>> ‘We’ define a X, Y and Z axis and then translation and rotation is also defined. Everyone knows what you mean.
>
>> I don't know how you can understand what he means when HE doesn't know what he means. For every motion requiring a different motor, that is an additional axis of motion. Rather than accept that he wants to foolishly talk about X,Y and Z axis as if that had any bearing. He is a stupid person who makes stupid statements. He has never worked in the industry and wants to only argue endlessly which does nothing more than show his own college trained ignorance.
>
> Lou Holman's question to YOU was:
>
>> On Wednesday, March 9, 2022 at 5:06:00 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich .
>>> One of the projects I completed had 12 directions of motion.
>
>> 12 direction of motion? I don't understand. I know translation
>> in X,Y and Z and rotation Rx, Ry and Rz. I can position and
>> orientate an object in a 3 D space using these 6 degrees of
>> freedom. What did I miss?
>>
>> lou
>
> I provided my answer, which you seem to regard as "foolishly talk
> about X, Y and Z axis". No problem. You're entitled to your opinion.
>
> So, could you please answer his question about how you implemented 12
> degrees of freedom into a blood sample handling device? After all,
> the question was addressed to you, not me. Did your project have 12
> motors? If so, how were they arranged and how did you program their
> motion which presumably involving Euler Angles, which are the basis of
> robotic motion control:
> <https://robodk.com/blog/robot-euler-angles/>
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euler_angles>
> More:
> <https://www.google.com/search?q=euler+angles+robotics>
>
> If it makes you feel any better, I had great difficulty learning how
> the coordinate systems and coordinate translation/rotation worked in
> CNC machining. I can't claim to be even minimally functional at CNC
> or robotics programming. At best, I understand the basic principles
> and some of the fundamentals. However, since the project you
> completed used all 12 directions of motion (commonly known as degrees
> of freedom), you should be able to properly explain how it works.
>
> Marginally related drivel on a 3 axis CNC mill conversion:
> <http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/CNC-conversion/index.html>
> <http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/CNC%20Conversion%20Project/CNC.html>
> The vertical mill is a Shizuoka ST-N. KRS servos and drivers. Newker
> 990(?) controller. It would have been 4 axis, except the owner sold
> the rotary indexer. Three of us worked on it over a period of 1.5
> years, including a spindle rebuild. The most difficult part was
> decoding the manual, which was a rather bad English translation of the
> original Chinese. It's been cutting metal (and making a profit) for
> the past 5 years.
>
>

Chinese? Shizuoka is (was?) a Japanese precision tool maker
in Tokyo.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Re: Responsive frame

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From: slocom...@gmail.com (John B.)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Responsive frame
Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2022 05:49:13 +0700
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 by: John B. - Thu, 10 Mar 2022 22:49 UTC

On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 09:27:35 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Thursday, March 10, 2022 at 1:22:39 AM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
>> On Thursday, March 10, 2022 at 12:39:47 AM UTC, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
>> > On Wed, 9 Mar 2022 11:03:40 -0800 (PST), Lou Holtman
>> > <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > >On Wednesday, March 9, 2022 at 7:43:18 PM UTC+1, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
>> > >> Also, the 3 rotational axis are commonly called yaw, pitch, and roll.
>> >
>> > >Not in my line of work.
>> > >Lou
>> > Not a problem. In robotics and machining, the rotational axes are a,
>> > b, and c. In maritime, aircraft and satellite, they're roll, pitch,
>> > and yaw.
>> > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_motions>
>> > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aircraft_principal_axes>
>> > There are also those who favor the Greek letters, alpha, beta, and
>> > gamma:
>> > <https://i.stack.imgur.com/2b9B5.png>
>> > <http://lavalle.pl/vr/node77.html>
>> >
>> And in the theatre, as of today when I made it up, roll, pitch and yaw will be incredulity, death spiral and fan. But we'll continue with the well-established stage right and stage left.-- AJ
>
>The people here who have done nothing with their lives are comedic is response to people who have.
>
>Now that Pfizer has been forced to release papers concerning their vaccine. Of less that 50,000 investigated cases there were about 160,000 physical abnormal responses to it. Now some of these were no doubt abnormal injection site pain. But there were 100,000 concerning musculature and neurological responses that could be permanent disabilities both physical and mental and 1,223 people died of this specific vaccine in only 48,000 investigations! This is FAR above (greater than or equal to 2%) the acceptable limits for vaccines.
>
>What this tells me is that those who know medicine PRACTICE medicine and those who don't go into civil service to garner large salaries despite their incompetence. This information was supposed to be public information and it took a group of THOUSANDS of doctors to sue under the Freedom of Information Act to get it release before 2097! What we are seeing is that Frank's favorite belief that we should have socialized medicine means that we should have socialized incompetent medicine. This suggests to me that Frank has a personal reason to want to void the 2nd Amendment.
>
>This has become not a debate about a questionable illness that appears to have been developed under US taxpayer money, but a level of attempting to hide how badly mRNA vaccines actually are. They are stiff today trying to force your children to take a fake vaccine that could be responsible for the death of your children. And who is pressing these sorts of things? The PRESIDENT! This is clear and present grounds for impeachment.

I really find all this discussion about Covid rather silly. The actual
Statistics show that in Thailand, where I read, in yesterday's news,
that 97% of all Thais wear masks the incident of Covid deaths is 335/1
million population while in the U.S., where I read (right here) that
masks are unnecessary the Covid death rate is some 2963/1m. That is
about 9 times more in the non-mask country.
--
Cheers,

John B.

Re: Responsive frame

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NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2022 17:45:08 -0600
From: jef...@cruzio.com (Jeff Liebermann)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Responsive frame
Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2022 15:45:08 -0800
Message-ID: <400l2h5d0i9n8rc19ihp050udh636an4is@4ax.com>
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 by: Jeff Liebermann - Thu, 10 Mar 2022 23:45 UTC

On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 16:33:22 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 3/10/2022 2:43 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> Marginally related drivel on a 3 axis CNC mill conversion:
>> <http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/CNC-conversion/index.html>
>> <http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/CNC%20Conversion%20Project/CNC.html>
>> The vertical mill is a Shizuoka ST-N. KRS servos and drivers. Newker
>> 990(?) controller. It would have been 4 axis, except the owner sold
>> the rotary indexer. Three of us worked on it over a period of 1.5
>> years, including a spindle rebuild. The most difficult part was
>> decoding the manual, which was a rather bad English translation of the
>> original Chinese. It's been cutting metal (and making a profit) for
>> the past 5 years.

>Chinese? Shizuoka is (was?) a Japanese precision tool maker
>in Tokyo.

Shizuoka ST-N. SHIZUOKA MACHINE TOOL CO., LTD. Made in Shizuoka,
Japan during late 1970's or early 1980's vintage. The company is very
much alive, but does not want to support their older products:
<http://www.shizuokatekko.co.jp>
(Use Chrome browser and the Google Translate extension to translate
the web pages into English). Very good quality mill. However, the
overall quality was ruined by the original Bandit controller, which
was difficult to program, and would blow up electronics randomly.
Fortunately, we found the one person on the planet who still supports
the Bandit controller. With his help, the Bandit was kept alive until
we decided that it was time for a servo, driver, and controller
transplant. In the end, we replaced almost everything except the
basic Shizuoka mill, the Bandit i/o system, and the power and
switching electronics.

I found some old (2016) pre-CNC photos that I made in case we had to
resurrect something:
<http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/Shizuoka-Mill/>

As I recall, the total cost of the CNC conversion, including
rebuilding the spindle, was about $2000. Of course, there was
considerable barter and the labor of those involved was essentially
free.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Re: Responsive frame

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From: am...@yellowjersey.org (AMuzi)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Responsive frame
Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2022 19:18:46 -0600
Organization: Yellow Jersey, Ltd.
Lines: 52
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 by: AMuzi - Fri, 11 Mar 2022 01:18 UTC

On 3/10/2022 5:45 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 16:33:22 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>> On 3/10/2022 2:43 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>> Marginally related drivel on a 3 axis CNC mill conversion:
>>> <http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/CNC-conversion/index.html>
>>> <http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/CNC%20Conversion%20Project/CNC.html>
>>> The vertical mill is a Shizuoka ST-N. KRS servos and drivers. Newker
>>> 990(?) controller. It would have been 4 axis, except the owner sold
>>> the rotary indexer. Three of us worked on it over a period of 1.5
>>> years, including a spindle rebuild. The most difficult part was
>>> decoding the manual, which was a rather bad English translation of the
>>> original Chinese. It's been cutting metal (and making a profit) for
>>> the past 5 years.
>
>> Chinese? Shizuoka is (was?) a Japanese precision tool maker
>> in Tokyo.
>
> Shizuoka ST-N. SHIZUOKA MACHINE TOOL CO., LTD. Made in Shizuoka,
> Japan during late 1970's or early 1980's vintage. The company is very
> much alive, but does not want to support their older products:
> <http://www.shizuokatekko.co.jp>
> (Use Chrome browser and the Google Translate extension to translate
> the web pages into English). Very good quality mill. However, the
> overall quality was ruined by the original Bandit controller, which
> was difficult to program, and would blow up electronics randomly.
> Fortunately, we found the one person on the planet who still supports
> the Bandit controller. With his help, the Bandit was kept alive until
> we decided that it was time for a servo, driver, and controller
> transplant. In the end, we replaced almost everything except the
> basic Shizuoka mill, the Bandit i/o system, and the power and
> switching electronics.
>
> I found some old (2016) pre-CNC photos that I made in case we had to
> resurrect something:
> <http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/Shizuoka-Mill/>
>
> As I recall, the total cost of the CNC conversion, including
> rebuilding the spindle, was about $2000. Of course, there was
> considerable barter and the labor of those involved was essentially
> free.
>

Thanks! That's a nice looking machine and your photo skills
are excellent.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Re: Responsive frame

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From: frkry...@sbcglobal.net (Frank Krygowski)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Responsive frame
Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2022 21:35:00 -0500
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 by: Frank Krygowski - Fri, 11 Mar 2022 02:35 UTC

On 3/10/2022 6:45 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 16:33:22 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>> On 3/10/2022 2:43 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>> Marginally related drivel on a 3 axis CNC mill conversion:
>>> <http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/CNC-conversion/index.html>
>>> <http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/CNC%20Conversion%20Project/CNC.html>
>>> The vertical mill is a Shizuoka ST-N. KRS servos and drivers. Newker
>>> 990(?) controller. It would have been 4 axis, except the owner sold
>>> the rotary indexer. Three of us worked on it over a period of 1.5
>>> years, including a spindle rebuild. The most difficult part was
>>> decoding the manual, which was a rather bad English translation of the
>>> original Chinese. It's been cutting metal (and making a profit) for
>>> the past 5 years.
>
>> Chinese? Shizuoka is (was?) a Japanese precision tool maker
>> in Tokyo.
>
> Shizuoka ST-N. SHIZUOKA MACHINE TOOL CO., LTD. Made in Shizuoka,
> Japan during late 1970's or early 1980's vintage. The company is very
> much alive, but does not want to support their older products:
> <http://www.shizuokatekko.co.jp>
> (Use Chrome browser and the Google Translate extension to translate
> the web pages into English). Very good quality mill. However, the
> overall quality was ruined by the original Bandit controller, which
> was difficult to program, and would blow up electronics randomly.
> Fortunately, we found the one person on the planet who still supports
> the Bandit controller. With his help, the Bandit was kept alive until
> we decided that it was time for a servo, driver, and controller
> transplant. In the end, we replaced almost everything except the
> basic Shizuoka mill, the Bandit i/o system, and the power and
> switching electronics.

We could have used you about ten years before I retired. Besides some
small sized educational mills, our NC lab used an ancient Bridgeport NC
mill, running programs on paper tape. Our electronic tech guys had more
and more trouble keeping the electronics working (sorry, I don't know
what the specific problems were), and Bridgeport was no help. I remember
being told "The only guy left at Bridgeport who still understood that
just retired."

It worked out OK, though. The difficulties ultimately let us convince
the administration we needed a brand new Haas mill, plus software to aid
in programming it.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Re: Responsive frame

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From: am...@yellowjersey.org (AMuzi)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Responsive frame
Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2022 21:09:10 -0600
Organization: Yellow Jersey, Ltd.
Lines: 78
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 by: AMuzi - Fri, 11 Mar 2022 03:09 UTC

On 3/10/2022 8:35 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 3/10/2022 6:45 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 16:33:22 -0600, AMuzi
>> <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 3/10/2022 2:43 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>>> Marginally related drivel on a 3 axis CNC mill conversion:
>>>> <http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/CNC-conversion/index.html>
>>>>
>>>> <http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/CNC%20Conversion%20Project/CNC.html>
>>>>
>>>> The vertical mill is a Shizuoka ST-N. KRS servos and
>>>> drivers. Newker
>>>> 990(?) controller. It would have been 4 axis, except
>>>> the owner sold
>>>> the rotary indexer. Three of us worked on it over a
>>>> period of 1.5
>>>> years, including a spindle rebuild. The most difficult
>>>> part was
>>>> decoding the manual, which was a rather bad English
>>>> translation of the
>>>> original Chinese. It's been cutting metal (and making a
>>>> profit) for
>>>> the past 5 years.
>>
>>> Chinese? Shizuoka is (was?) a Japanese precision tool maker
>>> in Tokyo.
>>
>> Shizuoka ST-N. SHIZUOKA MACHINE TOOL CO., LTD. Made in
>> Shizuoka,
>> Japan during late 1970's or early 1980's vintage. The
>> company is very
>> much alive, but does not want to support their older
>> products:
>> <http://www.shizuokatekko.co.jp>
>> (Use Chrome browser and the Google Translate extension to
>> translate
>> the web pages into English). Very good quality mill.
>> However, the
>> overall quality was ruined by the original Bandit
>> controller, which
>> was difficult to program, and would blow up electronics
>> randomly.
>> Fortunately, we found the one person on the planet who
>> still supports
>> the Bandit controller. With his help, the Bandit was kept
>> alive until
>> we decided that it was time for a servo, driver, and
>> controller
>> transplant. In the end, we replaced almost everything
>> except the
>> basic Shizuoka mill, the Bandit i/o system, and the power and
>> switching electronics.
>
> We could have used you about ten years before I retired.
> Besides some small sized educational mills, our NC lab used
> an ancient Bridgeport NC mill, running programs on paper
> tape. Our electronic tech guys had more and more trouble
> keeping the electronics working (sorry, I don't know what
> the specific problems were), and Bridgeport was no help. I
> remember being told "The only guy left at Bridgeport who
> still understood that just retired."
>
> It worked out OK, though. The difficulties ultimately let us
> convince the administration we needed a brand new Haas mill,
> plus software to aid in programming it.
>
>

South Bend keeps serial number records from 1906 so spares
and maintenance for our 1939 lathe were no problem at all.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Re: Responsive frame

<lqml2h95ghf2ggjs3n070ds41oi50rd8qi@4ax.com>

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From: jef...@cruzio.com (Jeff Liebermann)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Responsive frame
Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2022 21:46:19 -0800
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 by: Jeff Liebermann - Fri, 11 Mar 2022 05:46 UTC

On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 21:35:00 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>We could have used you about ten years before I retired. Besides some
>small sized educational mills, our NC lab used an ancient Bridgeport NC
>mill, running programs on paper tape.

The owners original shop, started in about 1977, was also running on
paper tape using a Model 33ASR Teletype. I made it fairly clear that
once everything had been "modernized" to RS-232, I wanted the 33ASR
machine. Instead, someone sent it to the metal scrap dealer. Grrrr.

The current shop has a Bridgeport vertical mill (background right):
<http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/CNC-conversion/CNC-conversion-01-001.jpg>

Before it can be used for CNC, the table and saddle feed screws need
to be replaced with precision ball screws and bearings. Note the
prices:
<https://www.icai-online.com/ballscrews/>
However, if I were buying a kit, it would be from Rockford Ball Screw:
<https://rockfordballscrew.com/ballscrews/bridgeport-kits/>

>Our electronic tech guys had more
>and more trouble keeping the electronics working (sorry, I don't know
>what the specific problems were), and Bridgeport was no help. I remember
>being told "The only guy left at Bridgeport who still understood that
>just retired."

That might be the case 10 years ago, but today, there are still
thousands of Bridgeport mills (and clones) still in service. Finding
mechanics who know the machinery is becoming difficult, but not
impossible. Or, you could just buy the cookbook and Learn by
Destroying(tm):
<https://www.amazon.com/s?i=stripbooks&rh=p_27%3AILION+Industrial+Services+LLC>

>It worked out OK, though. The difficulties ultimately let us convince
>the administration we needed a brand new Haas mill, plus software to aid
>in programming it.

If the school has the money, that's usually the best way. It's
difficult for students to learn on a machine that doesn't work.
However, when I went to skool (1960's), the situation was different.
The only machines we could get were donated. You can easily guess
which machines the schools received. I think I spent more time doing
maintenance on those machines that cutting metal. However, times have
changed. Most schools became tired of fixing donated hardware.
Therefore, donated machines now require the inclusion of a service
contract. I'm undecided which was better... having a working machine
to learn on, or learning how the machine works by first fixing it.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Re: Responsive frame

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From: jef...@cruzio.com (Jeff Liebermann)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Responsive frame
Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2022 22:17:00 -0800
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 by: Jeff Liebermann - Fri, 11 Mar 2022 06:17 UTC

On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 21:09:10 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>South Bend keeps serial number records from 1906 so spares
>and maintenance for our 1939 lathe were no problem at all.

My father's lingerie factory had an old South Bend lathe. One of my
auto repair shop customers and the college Rose Float construction lab
also had one. I don't recall the age or model numbers. I became
rather adept at lacing (splicing) flat leather drive belts with
Clipper Hooks:
<https://www.flexco.com/EN/Product-Systems/Mechanical-Belt-Fastening-Systems/Clipper-Wire-Hook-Fastening-System.htm>

3rd party SBL docs:
<https://www.amazon.com/Basic-Maintenance-Vintage-South-Lathe/dp/1671537610>
<https://www.amazon.com/Guide-Renovating-South-Lathe-Model/dp/1482364883>

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Re: Responsive frame

<k4ql2h9s4m21ou5bbc7g441dfdl2mbkfjf@4ax.com>

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From: slocom...@gmail.com (John B.)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Responsive frame
Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2022 13:26:13 +0700
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: John B. - Fri, 11 Mar 2022 06:26 UTC

On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 21:46:19 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 21:35:00 -0500, Frank Krygowski
><frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>>We could have used you about ten years before I retired. Besides some
>>small sized educational mills, our NC lab used an ancient Bridgeport NC
>>mill, running programs on paper tape.
>
>The owners original shop, started in about 1977, was also running on
>paper tape using a Model 33ASR Teletype. I made it fairly clear that
>once everything had been "modernized" to RS-232, I wanted the 33ASR
>machine. Instead, someone sent it to the metal scrap dealer. Grrrr.
>
>The current shop has a Bridgeport vertical mill (background right):
><http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/CNC-conversion/CNC-conversion-01-001.jpg>
>
>Before it can be used for CNC, the table and saddle feed screws need
>to be replaced with precision ball screws and bearings. Note the
>prices:
><https://www.icai-online.com/ballscrews/>
>However, if I were buying a kit, it would be from Rockford Ball Screw:
><https://rockfordballscrew.com/ballscrews/bridgeport-kits/>
>
>>Our electronic tech guys had more
>>and more trouble keeping the electronics working (sorry, I don't know
>>what the specific problems were), and Bridgeport was no help. I remember
>>being told "The only guy left at Bridgeport who still understood that
>>just retired."
>
>That might be the case 10 years ago, but today, there are still
>thousands of Bridgeport mills (and clones) still in service. Finding
>mechanics who know the machinery is becoming difficult, but not
>impossible. Or, you could just buy the cookbook and Learn by
>Destroying(tm):
><https://www.amazon.com/s?i=stripbooks&rh=p_27%3AILION+Industrial+Services+LLC>
>
>>It worked out OK, though. The difficulties ultimately let us convince
>>the administration we needed a brand new Haas mill, plus software to aid
>>in programming it.
>
>If the school has the money, that's usually the best way. It's
>difficult for students to learn on a machine that doesn't work.
>However, when I went to skool (1960's), the situation was different.
>The only machines we could get were donated. You can easily guess
>which machines the schools received. I think I spent more time doing
>maintenance on those machines that cutting metal. However, times have
>changed. Most schools became tired of fixing donated hardware.
>Therefore, donated machines now require the inclusion of a service
>contract. I'm undecided which was better... having a working machine
>to learn on, or learning how the machine works by first fixing it.

Why fiddle with the paper tape? Just run the machine.

The school I went to had both a fully equipped wood working shop and a
machine shop and actually made stuff for sale. The wood shop made the
forms, then had a local foundry make the castings and the machine shop
finished the machines. We made wood planers, bench grinders and I saw
the castings for a band saw although I don't remember that we ever
finished one.

I have no idea of the finances but certainly sales of machinery must
have helped to finance things.

I don't remember much about the wood working guy other then he had
been there since my father was in school but the Machine shop guy used
to talk about "going in the shop" when he was 12 years old. No
advances schooling, teacher's collage, or... Just 50 years of
experience (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

Re: Responsive frame

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 by: russellseaton1@yahoo - Fri, 11 Mar 2022 08:27 UTC

On Friday, March 11, 2022 at 12:17:09 AM UTC-6, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 21:09:10 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >South Bend keeps serial number records from 1906 so spares
> >and maintenance for our 1939 lathe were no problem at all.
> My father's lingerie factory had an old South Bend lathe.

Why would a lingerie factory have a metal working lathe? To make parts for the sewing machines?

One of my
> auto repair shop customers and the college Rose Float construction lab
> also had one. I don't recall the age or model numbers. I became
> rather adept at lacing (splicing) flat leather drive belts with
> Clipper Hooks:
> <https://www.flexco.com/EN/Product-Systems/Mechanical-Belt-Fastening-Systems/Clipper-Wire-Hook-Fastening-System.htm>
>
> 3rd party SBL docs:
> <https://www.amazon.com/Basic-Maintenance-Vintage-South-Lathe/dp/1671537610>
> <https://www.amazon.com/Guide-Renovating-South-Lathe-Model/dp/1482364883>
> --
> Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
> PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
> Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
> Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Re: Responsive frame

<t0fk56$8ik$2@dont-email.me>

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From: am...@yellowjersey.org (AMuzi)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Responsive frame
Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2022 07:51:33 -0600
Organization: Yellow Jersey, Ltd.
Lines: 26
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 by: AMuzi - Fri, 11 Mar 2022 13:51 UTC

On 3/11/2022 12:17 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 21:09:10 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> South Bend keeps serial number records from 1906 so spares
>> and maintenance for our 1939 lathe were no problem at all.
>
> My father's lingerie factory had an old South Bend lathe. One of my
> auto repair shop customers and the college Rose Float construction lab
> also had one. I don't recall the age or model numbers. I became
> rather adept at lacing (splicing) flat leather drive belts with
> Clipper Hooks:
> <https://www.flexco.com/EN/Product-Systems/Mechanical-Belt-Fastening-Systems/Clipper-Wire-Hook-Fastening-System.htm>
>
> 3rd party SBL docs:
> <https://www.amazon.com/Basic-Maintenance-Vintage-South-Lathe/dp/1671537610>
> <https://www.amazon.com/Guide-Renovating-South-Lathe-Model/dp/1482364883>
>

Yes, I was taught my an old machinist; it isn't all that
difficult.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Re: Responsive frame

<t0ftb7$p9i$1@dont-email.me>

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From: frkry...@sbcglobal.net (Frank Krygowski)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Responsive frame
Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2022 11:28:19 -0500
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Frank Krygowski - Fri, 11 Mar 2022 16:28 UTC

On 3/10/2022 10:09 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 3/10/2022 8:35 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>
>> We could have used you about ten years before I retired.
>> Besides some small sized educational mills, our NC lab used
>> an ancient Bridgeport NC mill, running programs on paper
>> tape. Our electronic tech guys had more and more trouble
>> keeping the electronics working (sorry, I don't know what
>> the specific problems were), and Bridgeport was no help. I
>> remember being told "The only guy left at Bridgeport who
>> still understood that just retired."
>>
>> It worked out OK, though. The difficulties ultimately let us
>> convince the administration we needed a brand new Haas mill,
>> plus software to aid in programming it.
>>
>>
>
> South Bend keeps serial number records from 1906 so spares and
> maintenance for our 1939 lathe were no problem at all.
Similar to my friction shifters! :-)

--
- Frank Krygowski

Re: Responsive frame

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From: frkry...@sbcglobal.net (Frank Krygowski)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Responsive frame
Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2022 11:44:47 -0500
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Frank Krygowski - Fri, 11 Mar 2022 16:44 UTC

On 3/11/2022 1:26 AM, John B. wrote:
>
>
> Why fiddle with the paper tape? Just run the machine.

The purpose of the course was to teach Numerical Control programming. In
those days, it was done manually by M codes and G codes.

Of course, if you're making just one fairly simple part, you'd just run
the machine. If you're making millions of a part, you would try to find
ways to automate the process from start to finish. But for production
runs of relatively small size, automatically controlled machine tools
are very valuable, and someone has to know how to program them.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Re: Responsive frame

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From: frkry...@sbcglobal.net (Frank Krygowski)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Responsive frame
Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2022 11:52:32 -0500
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 by: Frank Krygowski - Fri, 11 Mar 2022 16:52 UTC

On 3/11/2022 12:46 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 21:35:00 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> We could have used you about ten years before I retired. Besides some
>> small sized educational mills, our NC lab used an ancient Bridgeport NC
>> mill, running programs on paper tape.
>
> The owners original shop, started in about 1977, was also running on
> paper tape using a Model 33ASR Teletype. I made it fairly clear that
> once everything had been "modernized" to RS-232, I wanted the 33ASR
> machine. Instead, someone sent it to the metal scrap dealer. Grrrr.
>
> The current shop has a Bridgeport vertical mill (background right):
> <http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/CNC-conversion/CNC-conversion-01-001.jpg>
>
> Before it can be used for CNC, the table and saddle feed screws need
> to be replaced with precision ball screws and bearings. Note the
> prices:
> <https://www.icai-online.com/ballscrews/>
> However, if I were buying a kit, it would be from Rockford Ball Screw:
> <https://rockfordballscrew.com/ballscrews/bridgeport-kits/>
>
>> Our electronic tech guys had more
>> and more trouble keeping the electronics working (sorry, I don't know
>> what the specific problems were), and Bridgeport was no help. I remember
>> being told "The only guy left at Bridgeport who still understood that
>> just retired."
>
> That might be the case 10 years ago, but today, there are still
> thousands of Bridgeport mills (and clones) still in service. Finding
> mechanics who know the machinery is becoming difficult, but not
> impossible. Or, you could just buy the cookbook and Learn by
> Destroying(tm):
> <https://www.amazon.com/s?i=stripbooks&rh=p_27%3AILION+Industrial+Services+LLC>

The mechanical bits were never a problem. In fact, if you can find a way
to buy one, old machines used only in education can be great values.
Compared to machines used in industry, they typically have very low
hours. Mechanically, the bearings, screws, motors etc. are usually very
good. We just had problems with electronics going bad.

My robotics lab had two fairly small GE (or Nachi) robots. They probably
accumulated less than 75 hours per year, so the only mechanical
maintenance was a few shots of grease. But after they were about 15
years old, they began "forgetting" student programs stored in them. I
had to carefully back up programs after each session. The electronics
repair guys blamed bad capacitors.

>
>> It worked out OK, though. The difficulties ultimately let us convince
>> the administration we needed a brand new Haas mill, plus software to aid
>> in programming it.
>
> If the school has the money, that's usually the best way. It's
> difficult for students to learn on a machine that doesn't work.
> However, when I went to skool (1960's), the situation was different.
> The only machines we could get were donated. You can easily guess
> which machines the schools received.

Yep. Because of work I did for one company, they donated an Adept robot
to our lab. We tried for several years to keep it running, then finally
gave up.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Re: Responsive frame

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From: am...@yellowjersey.org (AMuzi)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Responsive frame
Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2022 12:10:08 -0600
Organization: Yellow Jersey, Ltd.
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 by: AMuzi - Fri, 11 Mar 2022 18:10 UTC

On 3/11/2022 10:44 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 3/11/2022 1:26 AM, John B. wrote:
>>
>>
>> Why fiddle with the paper tape? Just run the machine.
>
> The purpose of the course was to teach Numerical Control
> programming. In those days, it was done manually by M codes
> and G codes.
>
> Of course, if you're making just one fairly simple part,
> you'd just run the machine. If you're making millions of a
> part, you would try to find ways to automate the process
> from start to finish. But for production runs of relatively
> small size, automatically controlled machine tools are very
> valuable, and someone has to know how to program them.
>
>

+1
To make one, such as building submarines at Groton, you want
a skilled machinist. To make some, tape or basic CNC works
fine, such as small run USA bike parts. Those are often
better made in large quantities by thixoform or forging. To
make things by the millions there are several other
technologies from fully automatic subtractive machining to
heading, sintering, etc.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Re: Responsive frame

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From: slocom...@gmail.com (John B.)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Responsive frame
Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2022 05:51:22 +0700
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: John B. - Fri, 11 Mar 2022 22:51 UTC

On Fri, 11 Mar 2022 11:44:47 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 3/11/2022 1:26 AM, John B. wrote:
>>
>>
>> Why fiddle with the paper tape? Just run the machine.
>
>The purpose of the course was to teach Numerical Control programming. In
>those days, it was done manually by M codes and G codes.
>
>Of course, if you're making just one fairly simple part, you'd just run
>the machine. If you're making millions of a part, you would try to find
>ways to automate the process from start to finish. But for production
>runs of relatively small size, automatically controlled machine tools
>are very valuable, and someone has to know how to program them.

Yes. I didn't go into details but experience was - say 15 or 20 years
- that most "machine shops" as opposed to Manufacturing Facilities are
making one part, or repairing one part. In fact years ago I had this
same discussion with a chap that ran a 2 machine CNC shop. He made, or
perhaps finished machined, some sort of shaft used in Jet engines. We
finally agreed that no, where your order is, say two or three weeks
work on items that are all exactly the same that a CNC machine was
best while the repair of a 6 foot long shaft in a commercial air
conditioner unit might be cheaper to be done manually.

But I did work with a chap that had two very early "self controlled"
lathes, called "screw machines" which were controlled by metal cams
(:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

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