Hard to believe we share the same planet. Unfortunate situation.

https://cyclingindustry.news/cycling-minister-pleaded-with-children-not-to-cycle-on-terrible-roads-pledges-action/

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 3/23/2022 1:17 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> Hard to believe we share the same planet. Unfortunate situation.
>
> https://cyclingindustry.news/cycling-minister-pleaded-with-children-not-to-cycle-on-terrible-roads-pledges-action/

I'll comment. Yet another supposed promoter of bike use who does her
best to scare people away from using bikes. She hints that bicycling
can't be safe until the bicyclists can have segregated paths wherever
they need to go, which will never happen.

I don't doubt that improvements are necessary in some places and
possible in others. But can't we deal with those places without fear
mongering, without claiming all ordinary roads are horribly dangerous?

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 2:12:22 PM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 3/23/2022 1:17 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> > Hard to believe we share the same planet. Unfortunate situation.
> >
> > https://cyclingindustry.news/cycling-minister-pleaded-with-children-not-to-cycle-on-terrible-roads-pledges-action/
> I'll comment. Yet another supposed promoter of bike use who does her
> best to scare people away from using bikes. She hints that bicycling
> can't be safe until the bicyclists can have segregated paths wherever
> they need to go, which will never happen.
>
> I don't doubt that improvements are necessary in some places and
> possible in others. But can't we deal with those places without fear
> mongering, without claiming all ordinary roads are horribly dangerous?
>
>
> --
> - Frank Krygowski
I think she is nutty and has zero to do with anything I relate to as a cyclist. My guess is she has no sense of the practical and what works.
Deacon Mark

On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 12:50:04 PM UTC-7, deaco...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 2:12:22 PM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 3/23/2022 1:17 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> > > Hard to believe we share the same planet. Unfortunate situation.
> > >
> > > https://cyclingindustry.news/cycling-minister-pleaded-with-children-not-to-cycle-on-terrible-roads-pledges-action/
> > I'll comment. Yet another supposed promoter of bike use who does her
> > best to scare people away from using bikes. She hints that bicycling
> > can't be safe until the bicyclists can have segregated paths wherever
> > they need to go, which will never happen.
> >
> > I don't doubt that improvements are necessary in some places and
> > possible in others. But can't we deal with those places without fear
> > mongering, without claiming all ordinary roads are horribly dangerous?
> >
> >
> > --
> > - Frank Krygowski
> I think she is nutty and has zero to do with anything I relate to as a cyclist. My guess is she has no sense of the practical and what works.
> Deacon Mark
What a good question would be is how did she ever get in that position?

On 3/23/2022 10:17 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> Hard to believe we share the same planet. Unfortunate situation.
>
> https://cyclingindustry.news/cycling-minister-pleaded-with-children-not-to-cycle-on-terrible-roads-pledges-action/

She's pretty insulting to women.

On 3/23/2022 10:17 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> Hard to believe we share the same planet. Unfortunate situation.
>
> https://cyclingindustry.news/cycling-minister-pleaded-with-children-not-to-cycle-on-terrible-roads-pledges-action/

The first red flag in that article is that she has "a degree in
sustainable communities."

I was waiting for her to use "live, work, play," but she disappointed me.

On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 4:34:29 PM UTC-5, sms wrote:
> On 3/23/2022 10:17 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> > Hard to believe we share the same planet. Unfortunate situation.
> >
> > https://cyclingindustry.news/cycling-minister-pleaded-with-children-not-to-cycle-on-terrible-roads-pledges-action/
> The first red flag in that article is that she has "a degree in
> sustainable communities."
>
> I was waiting for her to use "live, work, play," but she disappointed me.
They don't give out degrees for common sense and if they did she would be in a world of hurt. Bikes will not take the places of general public transportation. They certainly can help with figuring out plans to move products and people around but that is far down the list on what needs to be done the world. It would interesting to know the real percentage of the population that can even ride a bike. The issues of age, danger, and little room to carry much tell me that sustainable communities need much more than any bike can offer.
Deacon Mark ( PH.D common sense)

On Wed, 23 Mar 2022 15:12:17 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 3/23/2022 1:17 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> Hard to believe we share the same planet. Unfortunate situation.
>>
>> https://cyclingindustry.news/cycling-minister-pleaded-with-children-not-to-cycle-on-terrible-roads-pledges-action/
>
>I'll comment. Yet another supposed promoter of bike use who does her
>best to scare people away from using bikes. She hints that bicycling
>can't be safe until the bicyclists can have segregated paths wherever
>they need to go, which will never happen.
>
>I don't doubt that improvements are necessary in some places and
>possible in others. But can't we deal with those places without fear
>mongering, without claiming all ordinary roads are horribly dangerous?

I really don't understand you people in the more developed countries.
As far as I know y'all have laws regarding highway use and penalties
for not following the laws. Why not just apply them?

Here in a tiny little primitive (but developing) country if you hit
and injure a cyclist, unless there are mitigating circumstances, you
will be responsible for all costs and in the event of a death may be
charged with "causing a death" which rates a 10 year prison sentence.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 3/23/2022 2:12 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 3/23/2022 1:17 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> Hard to believe we share the same planet. Unfortunate
>> situation.
>>
>> https://cyclingindustry.news/cycling-minister-pleaded-with-children-not-to-cycle-on-terrible-roads-pledges-action/
>
>
> I'll comment. Yet another supposed promoter of bike use who
> does her best to scare people away from using bikes. She
> hints that bicycling can't be safe until the bicyclists can
> have segregated paths wherever they need to go, which will
> never happen.
>
> I don't doubt that improvements are necessary in some places
> and possible in others. But can't we deal with those places
> without fear mongering, without claiming all ordinary roads
> are horribly dangerous?
>
>
Yes, that was one of the tips of one of the icebergs.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 3/23/2022 2:50 PM, Mark Cleary wrote:
> On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 2:12:22 PM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 3/23/2022 1:17 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>> Hard to believe we share the same planet. Unfortunate situation.
>>>
>>> https://cyclingindustry.news/cycling-minister-pleaded-with-children-not-to-cycle-on-terrible-roads-pledges-action/
>> I'll comment. Yet another supposed promoter of bike use who does her
>> best to scare people away from using bikes. She hints that bicycling
>> can't be safe until the bicyclists can have segregated paths wherever
>> they need to go, which will never happen.
>>
>> I don't doubt that improvements are necessary in some places and
>> possible in others. But can't we deal with those places without fear
>> mongering, without claiming all ordinary roads are horribly dangerous?
>>
>>
>> --
>> - Frank Krygowski
> I think she is nutty and has zero to do with anything I relate to as a cyclist. My guess is she has no sense of the practical and what works.
> Deacon Mark
>

She is the newly appointed United Kingdom Minister for
Cycling. And you're not.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 3/23/2022 4:21 PM, sms wrote:
> On 3/23/2022 10:17 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>> Hard to believe we share the same planet. Unfortunate
>> situation.
>>
>> https://cyclingindustry.news/cycling-minister-pleaded-with-children-not-to-cycle-on-terrible-roads-pledges-action/
>
>
> She's pretty insulting to women.

And cyclists. And taxpayers. And humans generally.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 3/23/2022 6:54 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Wed, 23 Mar 2022 15:12:17 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> On 3/23/2022 1:17 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>> Hard to believe we share the same planet. Unfortunate situation.
>>>
>>> https://cyclingindustry.news/cycling-minister-pleaded-with-children-not-to-cycle-on-terrible-roads-pledges-action/
>>
>> I'll comment. Yet another supposed promoter of bike use who does her
>> best to scare people away from using bikes. She hints that bicycling
>> can't be safe until the bicyclists can have segregated paths wherever
>> they need to go, which will never happen.
>>
>> I don't doubt that improvements are necessary in some places and
>> possible in others. But can't we deal with those places without fear
>> mongering, without claiming all ordinary roads are horribly dangerous?
>
> I really don't understand you people in the more developed countries.
> As far as I know y'all have laws regarding highway use and penalties
> for not following the laws. Why not just apply them?

Why? I'd say politics. Here are some local bike/ped examples - things
that matter to me since my wife and I bike and walk around here a _lot_.

My suburban village has a reputation as a speed trap. Some people swear
that village cops will pull someone over for going 26 in a 25 zone. But
that's absolutely false. According to a reporter who investigated, the
cops seem to give at least five, and probably ten miles per hour
"leeway." In my view, that's excessive.

And still, people speed by even more than 35 in a 25 zone. It's
difficult to walk across the nearby five lane road (two each way plus
center turning lane) when we have to judge wildly different speeds.

One community group once proposed turning that road into a boulevard, by
adding center islands. Some local yahoos killed that idea by telling
everybody we'd have massive traffic jams, and businesses would go
bankrupt because people could never make left turns. It was absolute
nonsense, but a bunch of people believed it and yelled at the village
council members, who buckled under.

Some have suggested speed control measures in residential neighborhoods,
like speed humps. Not harsh semi-cylindrical speed "bumps," but humps
with gradual up and down slopes, fine for 25 but harsh at 30. There's a
nearby neighborhood that uses these very effectively. But others wailed
that they would slow emergency vehicles and make snow plowing
impossible. As if there are no emergencies or snow four miles away in
that other neighborhood.

And of course, there could be speed cameras. But any mention of
automatic ticketing gets the "law and order" right wing up in arms. They
seem to think that the only proper way to stop a speeder is by a cop in
a patrol car. However, if you ask for tax money to fund more cops in
more patrol cars, it's suddenly "No new taxes!"

All this speeding, all this rat-running through neighborhoods with kids
and past playgrounds and schools, could be stopped. We have the
technology. But any politician that implemented actual effective
measures would be looking for a new job after the next election.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Wed, 23 Mar 2022 20:04:35 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 3/23/2022 6:54 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Wed, 23 Mar 2022 15:12:17 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 3/23/2022 1:17 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> Hard to believe we share the same planet. Unfortunate situation.
>>>>
>>>> https://cyclingindustry.news/cycling-minister-pleaded-with-children-not-to-cycle-on-terrible-roads-pledges-action/
>>>
>>> I'll comment. Yet another supposed promoter of bike use who does her
>>> best to scare people away from using bikes. She hints that bicycling
>>> can't be safe until the bicyclists can have segregated paths wherever
>>> they need to go, which will never happen.
>>>
>>> I don't doubt that improvements are necessary in some places and
>>> possible in others. But can't we deal with those places without fear
>>> mongering, without claiming all ordinary roads are horribly dangerous?
>>
>> I really don't understand you people in the more developed countries.
>> As far as I know y'all have laws regarding highway use and penalties
>> for not following the laws. Why not just apply them?
>
>Why? I'd say politics. Here are some local bike/ped examples - things
>that matter to me since my wife and I bike and walk around here a _lot_.
>
>My suburban village has a reputation as a speed trap. Some people swear
>that village cops will pull someone over for going 26 in a 25 zone. But
>that's absolutely false. According to a reporter who investigated, the
>cops seem to give at least five, and probably ten miles per hour
>"leeway." In my view, that's excessive.
>

Your nomenclature sort of exposes the problem - Speed Trap, i.e. a
place where the law is enforced.

My point is if you don't even pretend to enforce a law, why do you
have it?

>And still, people speed by even more than 35 in a 25 zone. It's
>difficult to walk across the nearby five lane road (two each way plus
>center turning lane) when we have to judge wildly different speeds.

>One community group once proposed turning that road into a boulevard, by
>adding center islands. Some local yahoos killed that idea by telling
>everybody we'd have massive traffic jams, and businesses would go
>bankrupt because people could never make left turns. It was absolute
>nonsense, but a bunch of people believed it and yelled at the village
>council members, who buckled under.

We have exactly that in the village we live in. The "main road"
through the center of town is a 6 lane highway - the main route to
N.E. Thailand, with a center "island" with trees growing on it.
Outside the highway, on both sides there are narrow 2 lane roads which
front on the businesses and allow parking. "Turn off's" from the main
road to the auxiliary roads are about 1 every 1/4 km, or there about.

>Some have suggested speed control measures in residential neighborhoods,
>like speed humps. Not harsh semi-cylindrical speed "bumps," but humps
>with gradual up and down slopes, fine for 25 but harsh at 30. There's a
>nearby neighborhood that uses these very effectively. But others wailed
>that they would slow emergency vehicles and make snow plowing
>impossible. As if there are no emergencies or snow four miles away in
>that other neighborhood.
>
>And of course, there could be speed cameras. But any mention of
>automatic ticketing gets the "law and order" right wing up in arms. They
>seem to think that the only proper way to stop a speeder is by a cop in
>a patrol car. However, if you ask for tax money to fund more cops in
>more patrol cars, it's suddenly "No new taxes!"
>
>All this speeding, all this rat-running through neighborhoods with kids
>and past playgrounds and schools, could be stopped. We have the
>technology. But any politician that implemented actual effective
>measures would be looking for a new job after the next election.

But Frank, sad but true, that is democracy in action. Or at least
democracy as practiced in the U.S.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 5:17:09 PM UTC, AMuzi wrote:
> Hard to believe we share the same planet. Unfortunate situation.
>
> https://cyclingindustry.news/cycling-minister-pleaded-with-children-not-to-cycle-on-terrible-roads-pledges-action/
>
>
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>
It seems odd that Boris Johnson, the British Prime Minister, himself a cyclist and as Mayor of London the initiator of successful traffic policy that favored cycling and cyclists, should appoint an idiot to be Minister of Cycling.
>
Andre Jute
Too experienced to waste time on the stupidities of politicians.
>

On 3/24/2022 5:20 AM, Andre Jute wrote:
> On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 5:17:09 PM UTC, AMuzi wrote:
>> Hard to believe we share the same planet. Unfortunate situation.
>>
>> https://cyclingindustry.news/cycling-minister-pleaded-with-children-not-to-cycle-on-terrible-roads-pledges-action/
>>
>>
>> --
>> Andrew Muzi
>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>>
> It seems odd that Boris Johnson, the British Prime Minister, himself a cyclist and as Mayor of London the initiator of successful traffic policy that favored cycling and cyclists, should appoint an idiot to be Minister of Cycling.
>>
> Andre Jute
> Too experienced to waste time on the stupidities of politicians.
>>

No better way to turn a small problem into a humongous
intractable expensive perpetual problem than to establish a
government agency for it.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 3/23/2022 8:27 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Wed, 23 Mar 2022 20:04:35 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> On 3/23/2022 6:54 PM, John B. wrote:
>>> On Wed, 23 Mar 2022 15:12:17 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 3/23/2022 1:17 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>> Hard to believe we share the same planet. Unfortunate situation.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://cyclingindustry.news/cycling-minister-pleaded-with-children-not-to-cycle-on-terrible-roads-pledges-action/
>>>>
>>>> I'll comment. Yet another supposed promoter of bike use who does her
>>>> best to scare people away from using bikes. She hints that bicycling
>>>> can't be safe until the bicyclists can have segregated paths wherever
>>>> they need to go, which will never happen.
>>>>
>>>> I don't doubt that improvements are necessary in some places and
>>>> possible in others. But can't we deal with those places without fear
>>>> mongering, without claiming all ordinary roads are horribly dangerous?
>>>
>>> I really don't understand you people in the more developed countries.
>>> As far as I know y'all have laws regarding highway use and penalties
>>> for not following the laws. Why not just apply them?
>>
>> Why? I'd say politics. Here are some local bike/ped examples - things
>> that matter to me since my wife and I bike and walk around here a _lot_.
>>
>> My suburban village has a reputation as a speed trap. Some people swear
>> that village cops will pull someone over for going 26 in a 25 zone. But
>> that's absolutely false. According to a reporter who investigated, the
>> cops seem to give at least five, and probably ten miles per hour
>> "leeway." In my view, that's excessive.
>>
>
> Your nomenclature sort of exposes the problem - Speed Trap, i.e. a
> place where the law is enforced.
>
> My point is if you don't even pretend to enforce a law, why do you
> have it?
>
>> And still, people speed by even more than 35 in a 25 zone. It's
>> difficult to walk across the nearby five lane road (two each way plus
>> center turning lane) when we have to judge wildly different speeds.
>
>> One community group once proposed turning that road into a boulevard, by
>> adding center islands. Some local yahoos killed that idea by telling
>> everybody we'd have massive traffic jams, and businesses would go
>> bankrupt because people could never make left turns. It was absolute
>> nonsense, but a bunch of people believed it and yelled at the village
>> council members, who buckled under.
>
> We have exactly that in the village we live in. The "main road"
> through the center of town is a 6 lane highway - the main route to
> N.E. Thailand, with a center "island" with trees growing on it.
> Outside the highway, on both sides there are narrow 2 lane roads which
> front on the businesses and allow parking. "Turn off's" from the main
> road to the auxiliary roads are about 1 every 1/4 km, or there about.
>
>> Some have suggested speed control measures in residential neighborhoods,
>> like speed humps. Not harsh semi-cylindrical speed "bumps," but humps
>> with gradual up and down slopes, fine for 25 but harsh at 30. There's a
>> nearby neighborhood that uses these very effectively. But others wailed
>> that they would slow emergency vehicles and make snow plowing
>> impossible. As if there are no emergencies or snow four miles away in
>> that other neighborhood.
>>
>> And of course, there could be speed cameras. But any mention of
>> automatic ticketing gets the "law and order" right wing up in arms. They
>> seem to think that the only proper way to stop a speeder is by a cop in
>> a patrol car. However, if you ask for tax money to fund more cops in
>> more patrol cars, it's suddenly "No new taxes!"
>>
>> All this speeding, all this rat-running through neighborhoods with kids
>> and past playgrounds and schools, could be stopped. We have the
>> technology. But any politician that implemented actual effective
>> measures would be looking for a new job after the next election.
>
> But Frank, sad but true, that is democracy in action. Or at least
> democracy as practiced in the U.S.

Yep. I'm not defending it, I'm just describing it. And examples abound.

To turn the topic back towards bicycling: Some years ago, I learned that
buried in our village's ordinances were idiocies like a requirement for
bicycles to be walked across any intersection with a "through street";
and a prohibition against kids younger than ten riding on any street. It
was illegal to park a bike anywhere without locking it. It was required
to ride on a sidewalk if one was available. There were other weirdnesses
as well.

I worked with Village Council to get those repealed. But I know that
there are other towns with identical ordinances. (It's thought that some
consultant company in the 1940s or so may have somehow sold packages of
ordinances to small towns.) And many states still have oddities like
requirements that all bikes have bells. Why? Or that bicycles _always_
be ridden "as far right as practicable." Even on an otherwise empty
road? Why?

I think the root problem is that the population's average IQ is a mere
100. And I see little evidence that legislators as a group exceed that
average, let alone the average for ethics.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 3/23/2022 5:01 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 3/23/2022 4:21 PM, sms wrote:
>> On 3/23/2022 10:17 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>> Hard to believe we share the same planet. Unfortunate
>>> situation.
>>>
>>> https://cyclingindustry.news/cycling-minister-pleaded-with-children-not-to-cycle-on-terrible-roads-pledges-action/
>>>
>>
>>
>> She's pretty insulting to women.
>
> And cyclists. And taxpayers. And humans generally.

Her remarks regarding gender were unfortunate. However, it is true that
at least in the U.S., men far outnumber women when it comes to bicycle
commuting, 71% to 29%
<https://thebikeadviser.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/gender-differences-1536x974.jpg>.

Adding separated bicycle infrastructure has been the most effective
method of increasing the number of bicycle commuters. It doesn't just
increase the sense of safety, it also often makes it faster and more
pleasant. When you can get on an MUP and ride ten miles to work without
any stop signs, traffic lights, or intersections, it's a much nicer ride
with a higher average speed, even if the peak speed may be lower. Even
if there are a couple of intersections where there's a stop sign or a
traffic light, it's still okay.

Experienced cyclists, comfortable riding in traffic, may scoff at the
money being spent to create separated bicycle infrastructure, but those
expenditures aren't being made for people that would bike-commute no
matter what.

There's not a need to get 100% of people commuting by bicycle, or even
50% or 25%. Just getting the mode share to 10% would have an impact on
GHGs and traffic congestion.

The cost of separated bicycle infrastructure is often so small that it's
lost in the noise of the money spend on road maintenance. Where it gets
expensive is when you start putting in bicycle/pedestrian overpasses and
tunnels over or under freeways, waterways, and railroad tracks. This is
a bicycle/pedestrian bridge in my city
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Burnett_Bicycle-Pedestrian_Bridge>,
built long before I was involved in City politics. Most of the money
came from a voter-approved sales tax measure where the revenue was
earmarked for transportation projects. Without this facility it was a
long way around to get across the freeway. My feeling is on this was "we
spend the money and actually got something people are using." Better
than spending it on transit projects like BRT that very few people would
ever use.

Electric bicycles are likely to make a measurable difference in bicycle
commuting. You can now buy a quality electric bicycle for under $1000,
and the prices are still falling. With gasoline prices unlikely to fall
back to previous levels, the combination of electric bicycles and
bicycle infrastructure will have an effect on behavior. What you can't
do is to build out half of a network of separated infrastructure and
then when no one uses it, because of a lack of connectivity, proclaim it
a failure (we already did this with light rail in Silicon Valley).

The bottom line is that this UK minister wants more UK residents on
bicycles to increase the mode share of bicycles used for transportation.
The proven way to increase transportational cycling is to put in
separated cycling infrastructure. No one disputes this fact.