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tech / rec.bicycles.tech / Cycling injuries

SubjectAuthor
* Cycling injuriesTom Kunich
+- Re: Cycling injuriesJeff Liebermann
+- Re: Cycling injuriesFrank Krygowski
+* Re: Cycling injuriesTom Kunich
|`* Re: Cycling injuriesrussellseaton1@yahoo.com
| `* Re: Cycling injuriesFrank Krygowski
|  `* Re: Cycling injuriesTim R
|   `* Re: Cycling injuriesTom Kunich
|    +* Re: Cycling injuriesFrank Krygowski
|    |`- Re: Cycling injuriesJohn B.
|    `* Re: Cycling injuriesJohn B.
|     `* Re: Cycling injuriesJohn B.
|      `* Re: Cycling injuriesAMuzi
|       +- Re: Cycling injuriesTom Kunich
|       `* Re: Cycling injuriesJohn B.
|        `* Re: Cycling injuriesAMuzi
|         `* Re: Cycling injuriesJohn B.
|          +* Re: Cycling injuriesrussellseaton1@yahoo.com
|          |`- Re: Cycling injuriesJohn B.
|          `* Re: Cycling injuriesAMuzi
|           +* Re: Cycling injuriesFrank Krygowski
|           |`- Re: Cycling injuriesJohn B.
|           `* Re: Cycling injuriesJohn B.
|            +* Re: Cycling injuriesAMuzi
|            |+- Re: Cycling injuriesFrank Krygowski
|            |+* Re: Cycling injuriesrussellseaton1@yahoo.com
|            ||`* Re: Cycling injuriesAMuzi
|            || `* Re: Cycling injuriesTom Kunich
|            ||  `* Re: Cycling injuriesrussellseaton1@yahoo.com
|            ||   +- Re: Cycling injuriesJohn B.
|            ||   `- Re: Cycling injuriesfunkma...@hotmail.com
|            |`* Re: Cycling injuriesJohn B.
|            | +- Re: Cycling injuriesJohn B.
|            | `* Re: Cycling injuriesAMuzi
|            |  +* Re: Cycling injuriesTom Kunich
|            |  |`* Re: Cycling injuriesFrank Krygowski
|            |  | `- Re: Cycling injuriesJohn B.
|            |  `* Re: Cycling injuriesJohn B.
|            |   `- Re: Cycling injuriesAMuzi
|            `- Re: Cycling injuriesrussellseaton1@yahoo.com
`* Re: Cycling injuriesJoerg
 +* Re: Cycling injuriesJohn B.
 |`- Re: Cycling injuriesJohn B.
 +* Re: Cycling injuriesFrank Krygowski
 |`* Re: Cycling injuriesJohn B.
 | `* Re: Cycling injuriesFrank Krygowski
 |  `* Re: Cycling injuriesfunkma...@hotmail.com
 |   `* Re: Cycling injuriesTim R
 |    +* Re: Cycling injuriesTom Kunich
 |    |`* Re: Cycling injuriesFrank Krygowski
 |    | +* Re: Cycling injuriesTom Kunich
 |    | |+- Re: Cycling injuriesfunkma...@hotmail.com
 |    | |+- Re: Cycling injuriesrussellseaton1@yahoo.com
 |    | |`- Re: Cycling injuriesJohn B.
 |    | `- Re: Cycling injuriesJohn B.
 |    +* Re: Cycling injuriesfunkma...@hotmail.com
 |    |`* Re: Cycling injuriesFrank Krygowski
 |    | +- Re: Cycling injuriesJohn B.
 |    | +* Re: Cycling injuriesrussellseaton1@yahoo.com
 |    | |`- Re: Cycling injuriesFrank Krygowski
 |    | `* Re: Cycling injuriesfunkma...@hotmail.com
 |    |  `- Re: Cycling injuriesAMuzi
 |    `- Re: Cycling injuriesJohn B.
 `* Re: Cycling injuriesTom Kunich
  `- Re: Cycling injuriesFrank Krygowski

Pages:123
Cycling injuries

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Subject: Cycling injuries
From: cyclin...@gmail.com (Tom Kunich)
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 by: Tom Kunich - Sat, 26 Mar 2022 20:39 UTC

As I've told the story many times but need to repeat now and again, due to a major quality control error on a first generation carbon fiber fork and a piculiar set of circumstances that had me leaning over to look at a noise on the front wheel, when it exploded apart, I received a severe concussion. This in turn caused me to have seizures of a sort that I could not remember after waking up from them.

Now I am not a strong believer is bicycle helmets. I have written a paper that is still still out there on the net showing that bicycling fatalities didn't change any from before helmets were invented to after. But there is a large difference between fatalities which normally occur when a bicyclist his hit by a car at high speed and the normal injuries from a simple single vehicle fall. Consequently I recommend helmets which reduces the possibly fatal injuries from a single vehicle fall. Bontrager Q-cell helmets are actually designed for this very purpose.

But there is another thing you should do as a bicyclist. You can get broken limbs set correctly at most ICU's, but a head injury should be treated by a neurologist. So at the very least you should look for and find a competent neurologist in the unlikely case that you need one at some point in your riding career. Without a competent neurologist I would now be dead and Frank would be happier than a pig in shit. So take a moment or two to find applicable physicians for the most likely injuries that a bicyclist is going to have. Do not leave it to the judgement of Emergency Room doctors to protect your health. Neurology in particular is extremely complex and very few interns are truly equipped to recognize serious head injuries that do not involve a broken skull.

Think about what could happen to you and plan ahead. This is something very few people do and should. This included drivers. The safest form of transportation is riding a bike properly so you probably will not need a top notch doctor in your entire riding career, but at least be aware that you could be injured and be ready for it.

Re: Cycling injuries

<283v3h1fub3sgrrn90pdqdiuhqutnjcn3u@4ax.com>

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From: jef...@cruzio.com (Jeff Liebermann)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Cycling injuries
Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2022 15:01:32 -0700
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 by: Jeff Liebermann - Sat, 26 Mar 2022 22:01 UTC

On Sat, 26 Mar 2022 13:39:37 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>I have written a paper that is still still out there on the net...

"Latest CPSC Helmet Standard and US Fatality Trends"
<https://www.vehicularcyclist.com/kunich.html>

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Re: Cycling injuries

<t1o2p3$g9j$1@dont-email.me>

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From: frkry...@sbcglobal.net (Frank Krygowski)
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Subject: Re: Cycling injuries
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 by: Frank Krygowski - Sat, 26 Mar 2022 22:06 UTC

On 3/26/2022 4:39 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> As I've told the story many times but need to repeat now and again, due to a major quality control error on a first generation carbon fiber fork and a piculiar set of circumstances that had me leaning over to look at a noise on the front wheel, when it exploded apart, I received a severe concussion. This in turn caused me to have seizures of a sort that I could not remember after waking up from them.
>
> Now I am not a strong believer is bicycle helmets. I have written a paper that is still still out there on the net showing that bicycling fatalities didn't change any from before helmets were invented to after. But there is a large difference between fatalities which normally occur when a bicyclist his hit by a car at high speed and the normal injuries from a simple single vehicle fall. Consequently I recommend helmets which reduces the possibly fatal injuries from a single vehicle fall. Bontrager Q-cell helmets are actually designed for this very purpose.
>
> But there is another thing you should do as a bicyclist. You can get broken limbs set correctly at most ICU's, but a head injury should be treated by a neurologist. So at the very least you should look for and find a competent neurologist in the unlikely case that you need one at some point in your riding career. Without a competent neurologist I would now be dead and Frank would be happier than a pig in shit. So take a moment or two to find applicable physicians for the most likely injuries that a bicyclist is going to have. Do not leave it to the judgement of Emergency Room doctors to protect your health. Neurology in particular is extremely complex and very few interns are truly equipped to recognize serious head injuries that do not involve a broken skull.
>
> Think about what could happen to you and plan ahead. This is something very few people do and should. This included drivers. The safest form of transportation is riding a bike properly so you probably will not need a top notch doctor in your entire riding career, but at least be aware that you could be injured and be ready for it.

Line up a neurologist ahead of time?

If that were to make sense, it would be for activities which are known
to be major sources of brain injury.

Bicycling is not one of them. It never has been. Look up the numbers.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Re: Cycling injuries

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Subject: Re: Cycling injuries
From: cyclin...@gmail.com (Tom Kunich)
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 by: Tom Kunich - Sun, 27 Mar 2022 00:55 UTC

On Saturday, March 26, 2022 at 1:39:39 PM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
> As I've told the story many times but need to repeat now and again, due to a major quality control error on a first generation carbon fiber fork and a piculiar set of circumstances that had me leaning over to look at a noise on the front wheel, when it exploded apart, I received a severe concussion. This in turn caused me to have seizures of a sort that I could not remember after waking up from them.
>
> Now I am not a strong believer is bicycle helmets. I have written a paper that is still still out there on the net showing that bicycling fatalities didn't change any from before helmets were invented to after. But there is a large difference between fatalities which normally occur when a bicyclist his hit by a car at high speed and the normal injuries from a simple single vehicle fall. Consequently I recommend helmets which reduces the possibly fatal injuries from a single vehicle fall. Bontrager Q-cell helmets are actually designed for this very purpose.
>
> But there is another thing you should do as a bicyclist. You can get broken limbs set correctly at most ICU's, but a head injury should be treated by a neurologist. So at the very least you should look for and find a competent neurologist in the unlikely case that you need one at some point in your riding career. Without a competent neurologist I would now be dead and Frank would be happier than a pig in shit. So take a moment or two to find applicable physicians for the most likely injuries that a bicyclist is going to have. Do not leave it to the judgement of Emergency Room doctors to protect your health. Neurology in particular is extremely complex and very few interns are truly equipped to recognize serious head injuries that do not involve a broken skull.
>
> Think about what could happen to you and plan ahead. This is something very few people do and should. This included drivers. The safest form of transportation is riding a bike properly so you probably will not need a top notch doctor in your entire riding career, but at least be aware that you could be injured and be ready for it.

Frank, you are the most stupid person alive. Another of your friends has forwarded me yet another of your dim witted postings. It is postings like yours that make me glad that I blocked your numbskull group from my view. But just to answer you:

"The following sports/recreational activities represent the categories contributing to the highest number of estimated head injuries treated in U.S. hospital emergency rooms in 2018.

Cycling: 64,411.
Football: 51,892.
Baseball and Softball: 24,516.
Basketball: 38,898."

If you ever had a single thought in your head, it would behoove you to look it up rather than suggest that I do. This makes you look all the more a fool.

Re: Cycling injuries

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Subject: Re: Cycling injuries
From: ritzanna...@gmail.com (russellseaton1@yahoo.com)
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 by: russellseaton1@yahoo - Sun, 27 Mar 2022 05:14 UTC

On Saturday, March 26, 2022 at 7:55:48 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, March 26, 2022 at 1:39:39 PM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > As I've told the story many times but need to repeat now and again, due to a major quality control error on a first generation carbon fiber fork and a piculiar set of circumstances that had me leaning over to look at a noise on the front wheel, when it exploded apart, I received a severe concussion. This in turn caused me to have seizures of a sort that I could not remember after waking up from them.
> >
> > Now I am not a strong believer is bicycle helmets. I have written a paper that is still still out there on the net showing that bicycling fatalities didn't change any from before helmets were invented to after. But there is a large difference between fatalities which normally occur when a bicyclist his hit by a car at high speed and the normal injuries from a simple single vehicle fall. Consequently I recommend helmets which reduces the possibly fatal injuries from a single vehicle fall. Bontrager Q-cell helmets are actually designed for this very purpose.
> >
> > But there is another thing you should do as a bicyclist. You can get broken limbs set correctly at most ICU's, but a head injury should be treated by a neurologist. So at the very least you should look for and find a competent neurologist in the unlikely case that you need one at some point in your riding career. Without a competent neurologist I would now be dead and Frank would be happier than a pig in shit. So take a moment or two to find applicable physicians for the most likely injuries that a bicyclist is going to have. Do not leave it to the judgement of Emergency Room doctors to protect your health. Neurology in particular is extremely complex and very few interns are truly equipped to recognize serious head injuries that do not involve a broken skull.
> >
> > Think about what could happen to you and plan ahead. This is something very few people do and should. This included drivers. The safest form of transportation is riding a bike properly so you probably will not need a top notch doctor in your entire riding career, but at least be aware that you could be injured and be ready for it.
> Frank, you are the most stupid person alive. Another of your friends has forwarded me yet another of your dim witted postings. It is postings like yours that make me glad that I blocked your numbskull group from my view. But just to answer you:
>
> "The following sports/recreational activities represent the categories contributing to the highest number of estimated head injuries treated in U.S. hospital emergency rooms in 2018.
>
> Cycling: 64,411.
> Football: 51,892.
> Baseball and Softball: 24,516.
> Basketball: 38,898."
>
> If you ever had a single thought in your head, it would behoove you to look it up rather than suggest that I do. This makes you look all the more a fool.

Tommy's numbers above are from the following website.
https://www.aans.org/Patients/Neurosurgical-Conditions-and-Treatments/Sports-related-Head-Injury

Here is the full list of SPORTS related emergency room visits.
Cycling: 64,411
Football: 51,892
Baseball and Softball: 24,516
Basketball: 38,898
Powered Recreational Vehicles (ATVs, Dune Buggies, Go-Carts, Mini bikes): 30,222
Soccer: 26,955
Skateboards: 10,573
Exercise & Equipment: 37,045
Horseback Riding: 6,141
Golf: 6,357
Hockey: 7,668
Trampolines: 8,956
Rugby/Lacrosse: 10,901
Skating: 7,143
Playground Equipment: 38,915

The top 10 sports-related head injury categories among children ages 14 and younger:
Playground Equipment: 35,058
Football: 31,277
Basketball: 20,242
Cycling: 19,921
Baseball and Softball: 12,065
Soccer: 12,709
Swimming: 9,265
Trampolines: 7,921
Powered Recreational Vehicles: 6,036
Skateboards: 3,101

In most studies and summaries, bicycling is put into the vehicle category. Not its own sport activity. Bicycles, motorcycles, and automobiles are all grouped together in vehicular related emergency room visits. Golf is 6357. I have golfed. And yes I worry about getting hit in the head by an errant golf ball. I guess it does happen. Maybe all golfers should wear a helmet?

This is from 2014, but I think still relevant today.
http://www.biact.org/understanding-brain-injury/brain-injury-facts-statistics
Falls 40.5%
Unknown 19.0%
Struck by/against 15.5%
Motor vehicle traffic 14.3% This is where BICYCLES is included.
Assaults 10.7%
In 2014 2.8 million people suffered from Traumatic Brain Injury. Not sure where sports activities other than cycling are included in the above categories. In the Struck by/against category?

Re: Cycling injuries

<t1pvgm$44c$1@dont-email.me>

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From: frkry...@sbcglobal.net (Frank Krygowski)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Cycling injuries
Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2022 11:23:01 -0400
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Frank Krygowski - Sun, 27 Mar 2022 15:23 UTC

On 3/27/2022 1:14 AM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Saturday, March 26, 2022 at 7:55:48 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Saturday, March 26, 2022 at 1:39:39 PM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> As I've told the story many times but need to repeat now and again, due to a major quality control error on a first generation carbon fiber fork and a piculiar set of circumstances that had me leaning over to look at a noise on the front wheel, when it exploded apart, I received a severe concussion. This in turn caused me to have seizures of a sort that I could not remember after waking up from them.
>>>
>>> Now I am not a strong believer is bicycle helmets. I have written a paper that is still still out there on the net showing that bicycling fatalities didn't change any from before helmets were invented to after. But there is a large difference between fatalities which normally occur when a bicyclist his hit by a car at high speed and the normal injuries from a simple single vehicle fall. Consequently I recommend helmets which reduces the possibly fatal injuries from a single vehicle fall. Bontrager Q-cell helmets are actually designed for this very purpose.
>>>
>>> But there is another thing you should do as a bicyclist. You can get broken limbs set correctly at most ICU's, but a head injury should be treated by a neurologist. So at the very least you should look for and find a competent neurologist in the unlikely case that you need one at some point in your riding career. Without a competent neurologist I would now be dead and Frank would be happier than a pig in shit. So take a moment or two to find applicable physicians for the most likely injuries that a bicyclist is going to have. Do not leave it to the judgement of Emergency Room doctors to protect your health. Neurology in particular is extremely complex and very few interns are truly equipped to recognize serious head injuries that do not involve a broken skull.
>>>
>>> Think about what could happen to you and plan ahead. This is something very few people do and should. This included drivers. The safest form of transportation is riding a bike properly so you probably will not need a top notch doctor in your entire riding career, but at least be aware that you could be injured and be ready for it.
>> Frank, you are the most stupid person alive. Another of your friends has forwarded me yet another of your dim witted postings. It is postings like yours that make me glad that I blocked your numbskull group from my view. But just to answer you:
>>
>> "The following sports/recreational activities represent the categories contributing to the highest number of estimated head injuries treated in U.S. hospital emergency rooms in 2018.
>>
>> Cycling: 64,411.
>> Football: 51,892.
>> Baseball and Softball: 24,516.
>> Basketball: 38,898."
>>
>> If you ever had a single thought in your head, it would behoove you to look it up rather than suggest that I do. This makes you look all the more a fool.
>
> Tommy's numbers above are from the following website.
> https://www.aans.org/Patients/Neurosurgical-Conditions-and-Treatments/Sports-related-Head-Injury
>
> Here is the full list of SPORTS related emergency room visits.
> Cycling: 64,411
> Football: 51,892
> Baseball and Softball: 24,516
> Basketball: 38,898
> Powered Recreational Vehicles (ATVs, Dune Buggies, Go-Carts, Mini bikes): 30,222
> Soccer: 26,955
> Skateboards: 10,573
> Exercise & Equipment: 37,045
> Horseback Riding: 6,141
> Golf: 6,357
> Hockey: 7,668
> Trampolines: 8,956
> Rugby/Lacrosse: 10,901
> Skating: 7,143
> Playground Equipment: 38,915
>
> The top 10 sports-related head injury categories among children ages 14 and younger:
> Playground Equipment: 35,058
> Football: 31,277
> Basketball: 20,242
> Cycling: 19,921
> Baseball and Softball: 12,065
> Soccer: 12,709
> Swimming: 9,265
> Trampolines: 7,921
> Powered Recreational Vehicles: 6,036
> Skateboards: 3,101
>
> In most studies and summaries, bicycling is put into the vehicle category. Not its own sport activity. Bicycles, motorcycles, and automobiles are all grouped together in vehicular related emergency room visits. Golf is 6357. I have golfed. And yes I worry about getting hit in the head by an errant golf ball. I guess it does happen. Maybe all golfers should wear a helmet?
>
> This is from 2014, but I think still relevant today.
> http://www.biact.org/understanding-brain-injury/brain-injury-facts-statistics
> Falls 40.5%
> Unknown 19.0%
> Struck by/against 15.5%
> Motor vehicle traffic 14.3% This is where BICYCLES is included.

Russel's correct that bicycles are in that 14.3% slice of TBI cases, but
we must remember they are a tiny portion of that slice.

Tom, of course, is ignorant of facts and unwilling to learn. He, like
many, have bought into the myth that ordinary bicycling carries serious
risk of brain injury. But it's just not so.

For those who process anecdotes better than data: I once got into a
discussion with a young woman who was adamant that all bicyclists should
wear helmets all the time. She "knew," because for seven years she had
been working full time in a facility that cared for brain damaged people.

I asked her, "So how many of the patients received their head injury
while bicycling?"

She said "Um... well, there's just one. He was a bicycle racer."

I said "If he was a bicycle racer, then he was wearing a helmet when he
crashed."

I never got her to give me a number of the NON-bicycling brain injury
patients, but it's clear that bicycling was not a major source of that
institution's serious TBI compared to other activities. That matches
national data. (Even pedestrians have far more TBI cases, and cases per
mile traveled, compared to bicyclists.)

Tom wants to defend his article showing bike helmets had no detectable
effect on fatalities (which did exhibit a good use of available data)
while also defending his compulsion to use a helmet now. He's tried to
excuse himself by saying "I wear it _only_ to protect against minor
injuries."

Which is fine! Tom should wear a helmet if he wants. After all, he seems
to crash a lot, so perhaps has a higher probability of getting some
benefit out of the funny hat.

But I'd also advise Tom to avoid trying to defend his behavior. He's out
of his intellectual league.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Re: Cycling injuries

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Subject: Re: Cycling injuries
From: timothy4...@gmail.com (Tim R)
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 by: Tim R - Tue, 29 Mar 2022 15:40 UTC

This is one of those rare occasions where I have to partially side with Tom..

When you need a neurologist you need a good one, and my experiences had me shopping a bit to find one that was a good fit. The first one was totally useless - perhaps he would have been good if my symptoms had been different but for me he was the wrong one.

That said, lining one up ahead of time seems unlikely to work. You don't know what your problem is going to be, and as has been pointed out bicycle injuries are not the majority of reasons to see one; add to that by the time you need one the local guy will have retired or been bought out.

The strategy I recommend is first trust your primary care to recommend someone, then if you have the slightest doubt demand a second opinion. That's what I did and it worked out well.

Re: Cycling injuries

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Subject: Re: Cycling injuries
From: cyclin...@gmail.com (Tom Kunich)
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 by: Tom Kunich - Tue, 29 Mar 2022 17:51 UTC

On Tuesday, March 29, 2022 at 8:40:22 AM UTC-7, timoth...@gmail.com wrote:
> This is one of those rare occasions where I have to partially side with Tom.
>
> When you need a neurologist you need a good one, and my experiences had me shopping a bit to find one that was a good fit. The first one was totally useless - perhaps he would have been good if my symptoms had been different but for me he was the wrong one.
>
> That said, lining one up ahead of time seems unlikely to work. You don't know what your problem is going to be, and as has been pointed out bicycle injuries are not the majority of reasons to see one; add to that by the time you need one the local guy will have retired or been bought out.
>
> The strategy I recommend is first trust your primary care to recommend someone, then if you have the slightest doubt demand a second opinion. That's what I did and it worked out well.

Well you're correct that some neurologists are not good. They mostly treat various forms of dementia and entirely forget treating concussion. But knowing where a couple of neurologists are is important if you need a good one. I was initially sent to a very bad one by my MD and he didn't know anything. And then my MD refused to look any further. Thanks to my friend he got me to a good one at Stanford (I suppose having football team members there doesn't hurt).

I showed how many head injuries there are each year and while fewer of those are concussions than football causes that is STILL a considerable number of serious concussions. Apparently the "group of 5" don't believe in being prepared.

Re: Cycling injuries

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From: frkry...@sbcglobal.net (Frank Krygowski)
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Subject: Re: Cycling injuries
Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2022 18:03:34 -0400
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 by: Frank Krygowski - Tue, 29 Mar 2022 22:03 UTC

On 3/29/2022 1:51 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> I showed how many head injuries there are each year and while fewer of those are concussions than football causes that is STILL a considerable number of serious concussions.

You may "remember" showing how many head injuries there are per year,
your "memory" is very unreliable.

And let's please stop conflating "head injuries" with Traumatic Brain
Injuries. As has been pointed out, helmet promoters deliberately
conflate those terms, counting cuts to the ears (i.e. injuries above the
neck) as "head injuries" in one paragraph, while bemoaning the terrible
long term effects of severe TBI in a nearby paragraph. That's
deliberately deceptive.

Bumps on the head, lacerations of the ears, bruises on the face are not
particularly common for cyclists. They do occur, but they are no more
harmful than bumps, scrapes or scratches in the knee or elbow. Serious
TBI caused by cycling is really rare.

> Apparently the "group of 5" don't believe in being prepared.

Oh good grief. I also don't believe in "being prepared" against gun
attacks while cycling, even though (gasp!) those happen occasionally.

Are we really supposed to wear bulletproof vests while riding? Should we
ride in leather knee length boots to protect against dog bites? Are we
to "be prepared" for every conceivable bad event? Are you _really_ that
fearful and paranoid?

--
- Frank Krygowski

Re: Cycling injuries

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 by: Joerg - Tue, 29 Mar 2022 22:27 UTC

On 3/26/22 1:39 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> As I've told the story many times but need to repeat now and again, due to a major quality control error on a first generation carbon fiber fork and a piculiar set of circumstances that had me leaning over to look at a noise on the front wheel, when it exploded apart, I received a severe concussion. This in turn caused me to have seizures of a sort that I could not remember after waking up from them.
>
> Now I am not a strong believer is bicycle helmets. I have written a paper that is still still out there on the net showing that bicycling fatalities didn't change any from before helmets were invented to after. But there is a large difference between fatalities which normally occur when a bicyclist his hit by a car at high speed and the normal injuries from a simple single vehicle fall. Consequently I recommend helmets which reduces the possibly fatal injuries from a single vehicle fall. Bontrager Q-cell helmets are actually designed for this very purpose.
>

They are all designed to protect in case of falls. After my handlebar
snapped off during a ride and I went down the styrofoam at one section
of my helmet had clearly become compressed. Just imagine if that kind of
energy absorption would happen inside the noggin. This is also why there
is a giant block of styrofoam behind the bumpers in many cars, to absorb
energy that then doesn't have to be absorbed by the driver and passengers.

The anti-helmet cruzaders will never convince me. Ever.

[...]

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Re: Cycling injuries

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From: slocom...@gmail.com (John B.)
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Subject: Re: Cycling injuries
Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2022 06:35:07 +0700
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 by: John B. - Tue, 29 Mar 2022 23:35 UTC

On Tue, 29 Mar 2022 15:27:19 -0700, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

>On 3/26/22 1:39 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> As I've told the story many times but need to repeat now and again, due to a major quality control error on a first generation carbon fiber fork and a piculiar set of circumstances that had me leaning over to look at a noise on the front wheel, when it exploded apart, I received a severe concussion. This in turn caused me to have seizures of a sort that I could not remember after waking up from them.
>>
>> Now I am not a strong believer is bicycle helmets. I have written a paper that is still still out there on the net showing that bicycling fatalities didn't change any from before helmets were invented to after. But there is a large difference between fatalities which normally occur when a bicyclist his hit by a car at high speed and the normal injuries from a simple single vehicle fall. Consequently I recommend helmets which reduces the possibly fatal injuries from a single vehicle fall. Bontrager Q-cell helmets are actually designed for this very purpose.
>>
>
>They are all designed to protect in case of falls. After my handlebar
>snapped off during a ride and I went down the styrofoam at one section
>of my helmet had clearly become compressed. Just imagine if that kind of
>energy absorption would happen inside the noggin. This is also why there
>is a giant block of styrofoam behind the bumpers in many cars, to absorb
>energy that then doesn't have to be absorbed by the driver and passengers.
>
>The anti-helmet cruzaders will never convince me. Ever.
>
>[...]

(:-) But.. but..but... I crashed severely enough to break bones twice,
once my pelvis and once several ribs and in neither case did my helmet
hit the ground, not a mark on it whatsoever.

Thus proof that helmets are totally unnecessary.
--
Cheers,

John B.

Re: Cycling injuries

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 by: John B. - Wed, 30 Mar 2022 00:29 UTC

On Tue, 29 Mar 2022 18:03:34 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 3/29/2022 1:51 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>
>> I showed how many head injuries there are each year and while fewer of those are concussions than football causes that is STILL a considerable number of serious concussions.
>
>You may "remember" showing how many head injuries there are per year,
>your "memory" is very unreliable.
>
>And let's please stop conflating "head injuries" with Traumatic Brain
>Injuries. As has been pointed out, helmet promoters deliberately
>conflate those terms, counting cuts to the ears (i.e. injuries above the
>neck) as "head injuries" in one paragraph, while bemoaning the terrible
>long term effects of severe TBI in a nearby paragraph. That's
>deliberately deceptive.
>
>Bumps on the head, lacerations of the ears, bruises on the face are not
>particularly common for cyclists. They do occur, but they are no more
>harmful than bumps, scrapes or scratches in the knee or elbow. Serious
>TBI caused by cycling is really rare.
>
>> Apparently the "group of 5" don't believe in being prepared.
>
>Oh good grief. I also don't believe in "being prepared" against gun
>attacks while cycling, even though (gasp!) those happen occasionally.
>
>Are we really supposed to wear bulletproof vests while riding? Should we
>ride in leather knee length boots to protect against dog bites? Are we
>to "be prepared" for every conceivable bad event? Are you _really_ that
>fearful and paranoid?

I think that many of the head, or other injuries reported are more a
matter of, what would one call it? Advertisement? Style?

Years ago one didn't "go to the doctor" unless one had broken bones or
was bleeding rather severely. I once had a horse run away and ran
under an apple tree and knocked me off. I was apparently unconscious
for a short time. Today, I would probably have been admitted to a
hospital for observation and it would have cost a gazillion dollars.
But my parents simply took me home and, probably, "kept an eye on me"
for a day or two.

Was it better, or worse? Who knows? From memory, always a somewhat
feeble facility, I remember one kid that I started school with dying
in the years from 1st grade to graduation from high school, and he
died from"infantile paralysis", as it was known then.

As an addendum, how many visits to the doctor get the remedy - "take
two of these pills and come back if you don't feel better in a day or
so"?
--
Cheers,

John B.

Re: Cycling injuries

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From: slocom...@gmail.com (John B.)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Cycling injuries
Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2022 07:56:56 +0700
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 by: John B. - Wed, 30 Mar 2022 00:56 UTC

On Tue, 29 Mar 2022 14:22:58 -0700 (PDT), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
<ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Tuesday, March 29, 2022 at 12:51:18 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Tuesday, March 29, 2022 at 8:40:22 AM UTC-7, timoth...@gmail.com wrote:
>> > This is one of those rare occasions where I have to partially side with Tom.
>> >
>> > When you need a neurologist you need a good one, and my experiences had me shopping a bit to find one that was a good fit. The first one was totally useless - perhaps he would have been good if my symptoms had been different but for me he was the wrong one.
>> >
>> > That said, lining one up ahead of time seems unlikely to work. You don't know what your problem is going to be, and as has been pointed out bicycle injuries are not the majority of reasons to see one; add to that by the time you need one the local guy will have retired or been bought out.
>> >
>> > The strategy I recommend is first trust your primary care to recommend someone, then if you have the slightest doubt demand a second opinion. That's what I did and it worked out well.
>> Well you're correct that some neurologists are not good. They mostly treat various forms of dementia and entirely forget treating concussion. But knowing where a couple of neurologists are is important if you need a good one. I was initially sent to a very bad one by my MD and he didn't know anything. And then my MD refused to look any further. Thanks to my friend he got me to a good one at Stanford (I suppose having football team members there doesn't hurt).
>>
>> I showed how many head injuries there are each year and while fewer of those are concussions than football causes that is STILL a considerable number of serious concussions. Apparently the "group of 5" don't believe in being prepared.
>
>Tell us Tommy boy, have you researched and lined up a doctor for the following much more likely physical problems:
>1. Orthopedist for osteoporosis.
>2. Rheumatologist for arthritis.
>3. Cardiologist for heart attack.
>4. Proctologist for hemorrhoids.
>5. Podiatrist for foot problems.
>6. Ophthalmologist for eye problems.
>7. Nephrologist for your kidney disease.
>8. Hematologist for blood clots.
>9. Otolaryngologist for hearing loss.
>10. And last but certainly not least, actually this is the most important doctor of all for you Tommy to research and find a really good one, a PSYCHIATRIST for all of Tommy boy's mental irregularities. And Tommy, add in a Psychologist too. They are not medical doctors, but your problems are far more mental than physical, so a Psychologist will be able to help you a lot.
>
>Tommy, if you have not researched and found a good doctor for all of these likely issues, then you are just lying and yipping and yapping about your neurologist. These are more likely to occur and much higher up on the list of doctors for you to research. Get to it Tommy boy. Report back when you have every one of these doctors on your speed dial.

But, how does one select a "good" doctor? Do doctors publish their
grades in Medical school? Do doctors publish win/loss scores for
patients cured/died? How does one pick a "good" doctor?
--
Cheers,

John B.

Re: Cycling injuries

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From: slocom...@gmail.com (John B.)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Cycling injuries
Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2022 08:29:51 +0700
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 by: John B. - Wed, 30 Mar 2022 01:29 UTC

On Tue, 29 Mar 2022 17:20:53 -0700 (PDT), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
<ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Tuesday, March 29, 2022 at 6:35:12 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>> On Tue, 29 Mar 2022 15:27:19 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
>> wrote:
>> >On 3/26/22 1:39 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> >> As I've told the story many times but need to repeat now and again, due to a major quality control error on a first generation carbon fiber fork and a piculiar set of circumstances that had me leaning over to look at a noise on the front wheel, when it exploded apart, I received a severe concussion. This in turn caused me to have seizures of a sort that I could not remember after waking up from them.
>> >>
>> >> Now I am not a strong believer is bicycle helmets. I have written a paper that is still still out there on the net showing that bicycling fatalities didn't change any from before helmets were invented to after. But there is a large difference between fatalities which normally occur when a bicyclist his hit by a car at high speed and the normal injuries from a simple single vehicle fall. Consequently I recommend helmets which reduces the possibly fatal injuries from a single vehicle fall. Bontrager Q-cell helmets are actually designed for this very purpose.
>> >>
>> >
>> >They are all designed to protect in case of falls. After my handlebar
>> >snapped off during a ride and I went down the styrofoam at one section
>> >of my helmet had clearly become compressed. Just imagine if that kind of
>> >energy absorption would happen inside the noggin. This is also why there
>> >is a giant block of styrofoam behind the bumpers in many cars, to absorb
>> >energy that then doesn't have to be absorbed by the driver and passengers.
>> >
>> >The anti-helmet cruzaders will never convince me. Ever.
>> >
>> >[...]
>> (:-) But.. but..but... I crashed severely enough to break bones twice,
>> once my pelvis and once several ribs and in neither case did my helmet
>> hit the ground, not a mark on it whatsoever.
>>
>> Thus proof that helmets are totally unnecessary.
>> --
>> Cheers,
>>
>> John B.
>
>But, but, but......you are still alive today to write this response. Therefore, it is inconclusive irrefutable proof that the simple fact you were wearing the helmet when you cracked your pelvis and ribs the helmet SAVED YOR LIFE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The helmet necessarily kept you alive. Can't get much more knowledgeable and intelligible and intellectual than that.

Well... O.K. Helmets save Lives!!!

But what about my bones? Don't we need something to save them?
Certainly protective wear for bicyclists is available
https://blueskycycling.com/collections/protective-gear
shouldn't it be made mandatory?

--
Cheers,

John B.

Re: Cycling injuries

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From: frkry...@sbcglobal.net (Frank Krygowski)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Cycling injuries
Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2022 22:03:55 -0400
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 by: Frank Krygowski - Wed, 30 Mar 2022 02:03 UTC

On 3/29/2022 6:27 PM, Joerg wrote:
> On 3/26/22 1:39 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> As I've told the story many times but need to repeat now and again,
>> due to a major quality control error on a first generation carbon
>> fiber fork and a piculiar set of circumstances that had me leaning
>> over to look at a noise on the front wheel, when it exploded apart, I
>> received a severe concussion. This in turn caused me to have seizures
>> of a sort that I could not remember after waking up from them.
>>
>> Now I am not a strong believer is bicycle helmets. I have written a
>> paper that is still still out there on the net showing that bicycling
>> fatalities  didn't change any from before helmets were invented to
>> after. But there is a large difference between fatalities which
>> normally occur when a bicyclist his hit by a car at high speed and the
>> normal injuries from a simple single vehicle fall. Consequently I
>> recommend helmets which reduces the possibly fatal injuries from a
>> single vehicle fall. Bontrager Q-cell helmets are actually designed
>> for this very purpose.
>>
>
> They are all designed to protect in case of falls. After my handlebar
> snapped off during a ride and I went down the styrofoam at one section
> of my helmet had clearly become compressed. Just imagine if that kind of
> energy absorption would happen inside the noggin. This is also why there
> is a giant block of styrofoam behind the bumpers in many cars, to absorb
> energy that then doesn't have to be absorbed by the driver and passengers.

If the helmet that stuck out an inch or more from your head was
compressed, that's not proof that your head would have been compressed,
or even have impacted the ground. And that's even assuming the same
exact crash. With no helmet, you may have ridden more carefully and not
crashed at all.

Available data is pretty clear: Riders with helmets crash quite a bit
more than riders without helmets. We can discuss why.

> The anti-helmet cruzaders will never convince me. Ever.

I'd say an "anti-helmet cruzader" [sic] would be a person working to
make helmets illegal. I don't know of any such person.

I do know of people who are actively working to make riding without a
helmet illegal. I'd say wear what you want, but work to preserve freedom
of choice.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Re: Cycling injuries

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From: slocom...@gmail.com (John B.)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Cycling injuries
Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2022 09:39:36 +0700
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 by: John B. - Wed, 30 Mar 2022 02:39 UTC

On Tue, 29 Mar 2022 22:03:55 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 3/29/2022 6:27 PM, Joerg wrote:
>> On 3/26/22 1:39 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> As I've told the story many times but need to repeat now and again,
>>> due to a major quality control error on a first generation carbon
>>> fiber fork and a piculiar set of circumstances that had me leaning
>>> over to look at a noise on the front wheel, when it exploded apart, I
>>> received a severe concussion. This in turn caused me to have seizures
>>> of a sort that I could not remember after waking up from them.
>>>
>>> Now I am not a strong believer is bicycle helmets. I have written a
>>> paper that is still still out there on the net showing that bicycling
>>> fatalities  didn't change any from before helmets were invented to
>>> after. But there is a large difference between fatalities which
>>> normally occur when a bicyclist his hit by a car at high speed and the
>>> normal injuries from a simple single vehicle fall. Consequently I
>>> recommend helmets which reduces the possibly fatal injuries from a
>>> single vehicle fall. Bontrager Q-cell helmets are actually designed
>>> for this very purpose.
>>>
>>
>> They are all designed to protect in case of falls. After my handlebar
>> snapped off during a ride and I went down the styrofoam at one section
>> of my helmet had clearly become compressed. Just imagine if that kind of
>> energy absorption would happen inside the noggin. This is also why there
>> is a giant block of styrofoam behind the bumpers in many cars, to absorb
>> energy that then doesn't have to be absorbed by the driver and passengers.
>
>If the helmet that stuck out an inch or more from your head was
>compressed, that's not proof that your head would have been compressed,
>or even have impacted the ground. And that's even assuming the same
>exact crash. With no helmet, you may have ridden more carefully and not
>crashed at all.
>
>Available data is pretty clear: Riders with helmets crash quite a bit
>more than riders without helmets. We can discuss why.
>
>> The anti-helmet cruzaders will never convince me. Ever.
>
>I'd say an "anti-helmet cruzader" [sic] would be a person working to
>make helmets illegal. I don't know of any such person.
>
>I do know of people who are actively working to make riding without a
>helmet illegal. I'd say wear what you want, but work to preserve freedom
>of choice.

I read a report, I believe a British Study, where they attached some
sort of radar distance measuring device to the bicycle and found that
cars passed closer to bicycles ridden by cyclists wearing helmets then
those bare headed.

But you can prove almost anything with a "study". The famous study of
always on lights carried out in the Scandinavian collage town also
demonstrated that single vehicle accidents were reduced by the tiny
flashing wheel lights (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

Re: Cycling injuries

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Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Cycling injuries
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 by: John B. - Wed, 30 Mar 2022 08:05 UTC

On Tue, 29 Mar 2022 23:37:56 -0700 (PDT), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
<ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Tuesday, March 29, 2022 at 7:57:00 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>> On Tue, 29 Mar 2022 14:22:58 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Tuesday, March 29, 2022 at 12:51:18 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>> >> On Tuesday, March 29, 2022 at 8:40:22 AM UTC-7, timoth...@gmail.com wrote:
>> >> > This is one of those rare occasions where I have to partially side with Tom.
>> >> >
>> >> > When you need a neurologist you need a good one, and my experiences had me shopping a bit to find one that was a good fit. The first one was totally useless - perhaps he would have been good if my symptoms had been different but for me he was the wrong one.
>> >> >
>> >> > That said, lining one up ahead of time seems unlikely to work. You don't know what your problem is going to be, and as has been pointed out bicycle injuries are not the majority of reasons to see one; add to that by the time you need one the local guy will have retired or been bought out.
>> >> >
>> >> > The strategy I recommend is first trust your primary care to recommend someone, then if you have the slightest doubt demand a second opinion. That's what I did and it worked out well.
>> >> Well you're correct that some neurologists are not good. They mostly treat various forms of dementia and entirely forget treating concussion. But knowing where a couple of neurologists are is important if you need a good one. I was initially sent to a very bad one by my MD and he didn't know anything. And then my MD refused to look any further. Thanks to my friend he got me to a good one at Stanford (I suppose having football team members there doesn't hurt).
>> >>
>> >> I showed how many head injuries there are each year and while fewer of those are concussions than football causes that is STILL a considerable number of serious concussions. Apparently the "group of 5" don't believe in being prepared.
>> >
>> >Tell us Tommy boy, have you researched and lined up a doctor for the following much more likely physical problems:
>> >1. Orthopedist for osteoporosis.
>> >2. Rheumatologist for arthritis.
>> >3. Cardiologist for heart attack.
>> >4. Proctologist for hemorrhoids.
>> >5. Podiatrist for foot problems.
>> >6. Ophthalmologist for eye problems.
>> >7. Nephrologist for your kidney disease.
>> >8. Hematologist for blood clots.
>> >9. Otolaryngologist for hearing loss.
>> >10. And last but certainly not least, actually this is the most important doctor of all for you Tommy to research and find a really good one, a PSYCHIATRIST for all of Tommy boy's mental irregularities. And Tommy, add in a Psychologist too. They are not medical doctors, but your problems are far more mental than physical, so a Psychologist will be able to help you a lot.
>> >
>> >Tommy, if you have not researched and found a good doctor for all of these likely issues, then you are just lying and yipping and yapping about your neurologist. These are more likely to occur and much higher up on the list of doctors for you to research. Get to it Tommy boy. Report back when you have every one of these doctors on your speed dial.
>> But, how does one select a "good" doctor? Do doctors publish their
>> grades in Medical school? Do doctors publish win/loss scores for
>> patients cured/died? How does one pick a "good" doctor?
>> --
>> Cheers,
>>
>> John B.
>
>To be honest, I don't think you know they are "good" until after you see them for awhile. And I suppose you judge how "good" they were by whether you got better. In my lifetime of doctor seeing, I have been fortunate enough to have had some really "good" doctors. And would recommend them to others if I was asked. But it took a number of years for me to decide they were "good".

But what is good, or what is better? If, for example. you have high
cholesterol, one doctor might recommend that you take LIVALO for your
problem, but another doctor might recommend lower doses of LIVALO but
also strongly recommend that you change your diet, lose weight and
start to exercise.

Which is the better doctor?
And which is the doctor that most will recommend to their friends?
--
Cheers,

John B.

Re: Cycling injuries

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From: am...@yellowjersey.org (AMuzi)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Cycling injuries
Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2022 07:33:01 -0500
Organization: Yellow Jersey, Ltd.
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 by: AMuzi - Wed, 30 Mar 2022 12:33 UTC

On 3/30/2022 3:05 AM, John B. wrote:
> On Tue, 29 Mar 2022 23:37:56 -0700 (PDT), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
> <ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Tuesday, March 29, 2022 at 7:57:00 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>>> On Tue, 29 Mar 2022 14:22:58 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Tuesday, March 29, 2022 at 12:51:18 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>> On Tuesday, March 29, 2022 at 8:40:22 AM UTC-7, timoth...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>> This is one of those rare occasions where I have to partially side with Tom.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When you need a neurologist you need a good one, and my experiences had me shopping a bit to find one that was a good fit. The first one was totally useless - perhaps he would have been good if my symptoms had been different but for me he was the wrong one.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That said, lining one up ahead of time seems unlikely to work. You don't know what your problem is going to be, and as has been pointed out bicycle injuries are not the majority of reasons to see one; add to that by the time you need one the local guy will have retired or been bought out.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The strategy I recommend is first trust your primary care to recommend someone, then if you have the slightest doubt demand a second opinion. That's what I did and it worked out well.
>>>>> Well you're correct that some neurologists are not good. They mostly treat various forms of dementia and entirely forget treating concussion. But knowing where a couple of neurologists are is important if you need a good one. I was initially sent to a very bad one by my MD and he didn't know anything. And then my MD refused to look any further. Thanks to my friend he got me to a good one at Stanford (I suppose having football team members there doesn't hurt).
>>>>>
>>>>> I showed how many head injuries there are each year and while fewer of those are concussions than football causes that is STILL a considerable number of serious concussions. Apparently the "group of 5" don't believe in being prepared.
>>>>
>>>> Tell us Tommy boy, have you researched and lined up a doctor for the following much more likely physical problems:
>>>> 1. Orthopedist for osteoporosis.
>>>> 2. Rheumatologist for arthritis.
>>>> 3. Cardiologist for heart attack.
>>>> 4. Proctologist for hemorrhoids.
>>>> 5. Podiatrist for foot problems.
>>>> 6. Ophthalmologist for eye problems.
>>>> 7. Nephrologist for your kidney disease.
>>>> 8. Hematologist for blood clots.
>>>> 9. Otolaryngologist for hearing loss.
>>>> 10. And last but certainly not least, actually this is the most important doctor of all for you Tommy to research and find a really good one, a PSYCHIATRIST for all of Tommy boy's mental irregularities. And Tommy, add in a Psychologist too. They are not medical doctors, but your problems are far more mental than physical, so a Psychologist will be able to help you a lot.
>>>>
>>>> Tommy, if you have not researched and found a good doctor for all of these likely issues, then you are just lying and yipping and yapping about your neurologist. These are more likely to occur and much higher up on the list of doctors for you to research. Get to it Tommy boy. Report back when you have every one of these doctors on your speed dial.
>>> But, how does one select a "good" doctor? Do doctors publish their
>>> grades in Medical school? Do doctors publish win/loss scores for
>>> patients cured/died? How does one pick a "good" doctor?
>>> --
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> John B.
>>
>> To be honest, I don't think you know they are "good" until after you see them for awhile. And I suppose you judge how "good" they were by whether you got better. In my lifetime of doctor seeing, I have been fortunate enough to have had some really "good" doctors. And would recommend them to others if I was asked. But it took a number of years for me to decide they were "good".
>
> But what is good, or what is better? If, for example. you have high
> cholesterol, one doctor might recommend that you take LIVALO for your
> problem, but another doctor might recommend lower doses of LIVALO but
> also strongly recommend that you change your diet, lose weight and
> start to exercise.
>
> Which is the better doctor?
>
> And which is the doctor that most will recommend to their friends?
>

That's a complex question. The brother of a good friend is
a suburban GP who says that mothers bring children in with
viruses and demand antibiotics. His choice is either to do
the right thing and say no, resulting in a reputation as a
'bad doctor' or to prescribe a very low dose of antibiotics
with the understanding that most childhood viruses will
clear them selves in a few days with rest.

And you can double that problem for doctors asked to
prescribe morphine and similar. The patient knows that
someone else (insurance company or welfare) will pick up
most of the office visit and prescription charges, leaving
the patient with a saleable item.

Add in that few MDs are independent professionals now.
They're employees of large entities and capitated, which
means time spent with a patient is strongly discouraged.

How to approach that problem? Systematize pill pushing!
https://www.bloombergquint.com/businessweek/cerebral-app-over-prescribed-adhd-meds-ex-employees-say

Define 'good doctor' any way you like but the degradation of
the medical industry (from the patient's view, not the
revenue side of the industry) continues.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Re: Cycling injuries

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From: frkry...@sbcglobal.net (Frank Krygowski)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Cycling injuries
Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2022 11:39:19 -0400
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 by: Frank Krygowski - Wed, 30 Mar 2022 15:39 UTC

On 3/29/2022 10:39 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Tue, 29 Mar 2022 22:03:55 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> On 3/29/2022 6:27 PM, Joerg wrote:
>>>
>>> The anti-helmet cruzaders will never convince me. Ever.
>>
>> I'd say an "anti-helmet cruzader" [sic] would be a person working to
>> make helmets illegal. I don't know of any such person.
>>
>> I do know of people who are actively working to make riding without a
>> helmet illegal. I'd say wear what you want, but work to preserve freedom
>> of choice.
>
> I read a report, I believe a British Study, where they attached some
> sort of radar distance measuring device to the bicycle and found that
> cars passed closer to bicycles ridden by cyclists wearing helmets then
> those bare headed.

I'm familiar with that study (by Walker). But I think a much bigger
factor is that riders wearing helmets tend to take more risks that those
without helmets. This includes everything from "Ooh, that road's scary.
I would never ride it without my helmet!" to "Hell yes, I can take this
tight bend at 40 mph! I've got my helmet on!"

In the most famous helmet promotion paper (Thompson & Rivara, 1989) the
authors hid the fact that the percentage of helmet wearing kids
presented to the ER was about seven times as high as the percentage of
helmet wearing kids in observational street surveys. That is, helmeted
kids were seven times more likely to show up in ER.

> But you can prove almost anything with a "study". The famous study of
> always on lights carried out in the Scandinavian collage town also
> demonstrated that single vehicle accidents were reduced by the tiny
> flashing wheel lights (:-)

I'm familiar with that "you can prove almost anything" line. But I'd be
cautious about going too far, into "nothing can be known" territory.

I think the real lesson is, be very skeptical of studies funded by those
selling a commercial product. That certainly applies to the bike
headlights in the study you mentioned.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Re: Cycling injuries

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Subject: Re: Cycling injuries
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 by: funkma...@hotmail.co - Wed, 30 Mar 2022 15:49 UTC

On Wednesday, March 30, 2022 at 11:39:22 AM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>
> But I think a much bigger
> factor is that riders wearing helmets tend to take more risks that those
> without helmets. This includes everything from "Ooh, that road's scary.
> I would never ride it without my helmet!" to "Hell yes, I can take this
> tight bend at 40 mph! I've got my helmet on!"
>

Moral Hazard is a well-known factor in the insurance industry.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_hazard#Insurance_industry
"Two types of behavior can change. One type is the risky behavior itself, resulting in a before the event moral hazard. Insured parties then behave in a more risky manner, resulting in more negative consequences that the insurer must pay for. "

In this case, the helmet is the 'insurance'.

Cathy Bates said it best in Fried Green Tomatoes:

[Evelyn is cut off in a parking lot]
Evelyn Couch: Hey! I was waiting for that spot!
Girl #1: Face it, lady, we're younger and faster!
[Evelyn rear-ends the other car six times]
Girl #1: What are you *doing*?
Girl #2: Are you *crazy*?
Evelyn Couch: Face it, girls, I'm older and I have more insurance.

Re: Cycling injuries

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Subject: Re: Cycling injuries
From: cyclin...@gmail.com (Tom Kunich)
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 by: Tom Kunich - Wed, 30 Mar 2022 16:39 UTC

On Tuesday, March 29, 2022 at 3:27:24 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
> On 3/26/22 1:39 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > As I've told the story many times but need to repeat now and again, due to a major quality control error on a first generation carbon fiber fork and a piculiar set of circumstances that had me leaning over to look at a noise on the front wheel, when it exploded apart, I received a severe concussion. This in turn caused me to have seizures of a sort that I could not remember after waking up from them.
> >
> > Now I am not a strong believer is bicycle helmets. I have written a paper that is still still out there on the net showing that bicycling fatalities didn't change any from before helmets were invented to after. But there is a large difference between fatalities which normally occur when a bicyclist his hit by a car at high speed and the normal injuries from a simple single vehicle fall. Consequently I recommend helmets which reduces the possibly fatal injuries from a single vehicle fall. Bontrager Q-cell helmets are actually designed for this very purpose.
> >
> They are all designed to protect in case of falls. After my handlebar
> snapped off during a ride and I went down the styrofoam at one section
> of my helmet had clearly become compressed. Just imagine if that kind of
> energy absorption would happen inside the noggin. This is also why there
> is a giant block of styrofoam behind the bumpers in many cars, to absorb
> energy that then doesn't have to be absorbed by the driver and passengers..
>
> The anti-helmet cruzaders will never convince me. Ever.

The Bontrager Q-cell helmet is designed to have much slower deceleration than Styrofoam. Styrofoam helmets were originally designed to prevent skull fracture. But most cases of severe injury but less than fatal are caused by concussion. Q-cell helmets are designed from the ground up to decelerate the head at a speed slightly less than that which causes concussion. We still don't know the long term effects of whether it works or not but I can tell you I've fallen down a number of time with the Q-cell helmet and not had the slightest effects of concussion and the cells recovered rather than remaining compressed like styrofoam does.- Though I think it took a couple of days. Even the compression of the plastic cover of the helmet disappeared as the cells recovered.

I recommend this sort of helmet not because it will "save your life": it won't, but because it will prevent the worst kind of non-fatal injury.

Re: Cycling injuries

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Subject: Re: Cycling injuries
From: cyclin...@gmail.com (Tom Kunich)
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 by: Tom Kunich - Wed, 30 Mar 2022 16:43 UTC

On Wednesday, March 30, 2022 at 5:33:09 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 3/30/2022 3:05 AM, John B. wrote:
> > On Tue, 29 Mar 2022 23:37:56 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> > <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On Tuesday, March 29, 2022 at 7:57:00 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> >>> On Tue, 29 Mar 2022 14:22:58 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> >>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On Tuesday, March 29, 2022 at 12:51:18 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>>> On Tuesday, March 29, 2022 at 8:40:22 AM UTC-7, timoth...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>>>> This is one of those rare occasions where I have to partially side with Tom.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> When you need a neurologist you need a good one, and my experiences had me shopping a bit to find one that was a good fit. The first one was totally useless - perhaps he would have been good if my symptoms had been different but for me he was the wrong one.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> That said, lining one up ahead of time seems unlikely to work. You don't know what your problem is going to be, and as has been pointed out bicycle injuries are not the majority of reasons to see one; add to that by the time you need one the local guy will have retired or been bought out.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> The strategy I recommend is first trust your primary care to recommend someone, then if you have the slightest doubt demand a second opinion. That's what I did and it worked out well.
> >>>>> Well you're correct that some neurologists are not good. They mostly treat various forms of dementia and entirely forget treating concussion. But knowing where a couple of neurologists are is important if you need a good one. I was initially sent to a very bad one by my MD and he didn't know anything. And then my MD refused to look any further. Thanks to my friend he got me to a good one at Stanford (I suppose having football team members there doesn't hurt).
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I showed how many head injuries there are each year and while fewer of those are concussions than football causes that is STILL a considerable number of serious concussions. Apparently the "group of 5" don't believe in being prepared.
> >>>>
> >>>> Tell us Tommy boy, have you researched and lined up a doctor for the following much more likely physical problems:
> >>>> 1. Orthopedist for osteoporosis.
> >>>> 2. Rheumatologist for arthritis.
> >>>> 3. Cardiologist for heart attack.
> >>>> 4. Proctologist for hemorrhoids.
> >>>> 5. Podiatrist for foot problems.
> >>>> 6. Ophthalmologist for eye problems.
> >>>> 7. Nephrologist for your kidney disease.
> >>>> 8. Hematologist for blood clots.
> >>>> 9. Otolaryngologist for hearing loss.
> >>>> 10. And last but certainly not least, actually this is the most important doctor of all for you Tommy to research and find a really good one, a PSYCHIATRIST for all of Tommy boy's mental irregularities. And Tommy, add in a Psychologist too. They are not medical doctors, but your problems are far more mental than physical, so a Psychologist will be able to help you a lot.
> >>>>
> >>>> Tommy, if you have not researched and found a good doctor for all of these likely issues, then you are just lying and yipping and yapping about your neurologist. These are more likely to occur and much higher up on the list of doctors for you to research. Get to it Tommy boy. Report back when you have every one of these doctors on your speed dial.
> >>> But, how does one select a "good" doctor? Do doctors publish their
> >>> grades in Medical school? Do doctors publish win/loss scores for
> >>> patients cured/died? How does one pick a "good" doctor?
> >>> --
> >>> Cheers,
> >>>
> >>> John B.
> >>
> >> To be honest, I don't think you know they are "good" until after you see them for awhile. And I suppose you judge how "good" they were by whether you got better. In my lifetime of doctor seeing, I have been fortunate enough to have had some really "good" doctors. And would recommend them to others if I was asked. But it took a number of years for me to decide they were "good".
> >
> > But what is good, or what is better? If, for example. you have high
> > cholesterol, one doctor might recommend that you take LIVALO for your
> > problem, but another doctor might recommend lower doses of LIVALO but
> > also strongly recommend that you change your diet, lose weight and
> > start to exercise.
> >
> > Which is the better doctor?
> >
> > And which is the doctor that most will recommend to their friends?
> >
> That's a complex question. The brother of a good friend is
> a suburban GP who says that mothers bring children in with
> viruses and demand antibiotics. His choice is either to do
> the right thing and say no, resulting in a reputation as a
> 'bad doctor' or to prescribe a very low dose of antibiotics
> with the understanding that most childhood viruses will
> clear them selves in a few days with rest.
>
> And you can double that problem for doctors asked to
> prescribe morphine and similar. The patient knows that
> someone else (insurance company or welfare) will pick up
> most of the office visit and prescription charges, leaving
> the patient with a saleable item.
>
> Add in that few MDs are independent professionals now.
> They're employees of large entities and capitated, which
> means time spent with a patient is strongly discouraged.
>
> How to approach that problem? Systematize pill pushing!
> https://www.bloombergquint.com/businessweek/cerebral-app-over-prescribed-adhd-meds-ex-employees-say
>
> Define 'good doctor' any way you like but the degradation of
> the medical industry (from the patient's view, not the
> revenue side of the industry) continues.

One of my first falls back from the concussion resulted in very painful road rash. My original GP prescribed me Oxycontin which worked very well but I could tell it was addicting me after just a day or two. So I stopped using it. And to tell you the truth Ibuprofen was just as good.

Re: Cycling injuries

<t2239r$bhk$1@dont-email.me>

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From: frkry...@sbcglobal.net (Frank Krygowski)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Cycling injuries
Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2022 13:16:42 -0400
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Frank Krygowski - Wed, 30 Mar 2022 17:16 UTC

On 3/30/2022 12:39 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> ... I can tell you I've fallen down a number of time with the Q-cell helmet and not had the slightest effects of concussion and the cells recovered rather than remaining compressed like styrofoam does.

WaveCel helmet have been around for - what? - about three years?

And you've fallen down and hit your helmeted head "a number of times" in
that short interval?

Wow. If that "number" is even one, you're falling a lot more than most
people.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Re: Cycling injuries

<l1o94h114mqjhctkc2f1kb65dnoi9h63uj@4ax.com>

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From: slocom...@gmail.com (John B.)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Cycling injuries
Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2022 06:01:53 +0700
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: John B. - Wed, 30 Mar 2022 23:01 UTC

On Wed, 30 Mar 2022 07:33:01 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 3/30/2022 3:05 AM, John B. wrote:
>> On Tue, 29 Mar 2022 23:37:56 -0700 (PDT), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
>> <ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Tuesday, March 29, 2022 at 7:57:00 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 29 Mar 2022 14:22:58 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Tuesday, March 29, 2022 at 12:51:18 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>> On Tuesday, March 29, 2022 at 8:40:22 AM UTC-7, timoth...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>> This is one of those rare occasions where I have to partially side with Tom.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> When you need a neurologist you need a good one, and my experiences had me shopping a bit to find one that was a good fit. The first one was totally useless - perhaps he would have been good if my symptoms had been different but for me he was the wrong one.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That said, lining one up ahead of time seems unlikely to work. You don't know what your problem is going to be, and as has been pointed out bicycle injuries are not the majority of reasons to see one; add to that by the time you need one the local guy will have retired or been bought out.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The strategy I recommend is first trust your primary care to recommend someone, then if you have the slightest doubt demand a second opinion. That's what I did and it worked out well.
>>>>>> Well you're correct that some neurologists are not good. They mostly treat various forms of dementia and entirely forget treating concussion. But knowing where a couple of neurologists are is important if you need a good one. I was initially sent to a very bad one by my MD and he didn't know anything. And then my MD refused to look any further. Thanks to my friend he got me to a good one at Stanford (I suppose having football team members there doesn't hurt).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I showed how many head injuries there are each year and while fewer of those are concussions than football causes that is STILL a considerable number of serious concussions. Apparently the "group of 5" don't believe in being prepared.
>>>>>
>>>>> Tell us Tommy boy, have you researched and lined up a doctor for the following much more likely physical problems:
>>>>> 1. Orthopedist for osteoporosis.
>>>>> 2. Rheumatologist for arthritis.
>>>>> 3. Cardiologist for heart attack.
>>>>> 4. Proctologist for hemorrhoids.
>>>>> 5. Podiatrist for foot problems.
>>>>> 6. Ophthalmologist for eye problems.
>>>>> 7. Nephrologist for your kidney disease.
>>>>> 8. Hematologist for blood clots.
>>>>> 9. Otolaryngologist for hearing loss.
>>>>> 10. And last but certainly not least, actually this is the most important doctor of all for you Tommy to research and find a really good one, a PSYCHIATRIST for all of Tommy boy's mental irregularities. And Tommy, add in a Psychologist too. They are not medical doctors, but your problems are far more mental than physical, so a Psychologist will be able to help you a lot.
>>>>>
>>>>> Tommy, if you have not researched and found a good doctor for all of these likely issues, then you are just lying and yipping and yapping about your neurologist. These are more likely to occur and much higher up on the list of doctors for you to research. Get to it Tommy boy. Report back when you have every one of these doctors on your speed dial.
>>>> But, how does one select a "good" doctor? Do doctors publish their
>>>> grades in Medical school? Do doctors publish win/loss scores for
>>>> patients cured/died? How does one pick a "good" doctor?
>>>> --
>>>> Cheers,
>>>>
>>>> John B.
>>>
>>> To be honest, I don't think you know they are "good" until after you see them for awhile. And I suppose you judge how "good" they were by whether you got better. In my lifetime of doctor seeing, I have been fortunate enough to have had some really "good" doctors. And would recommend them to others if I was asked. But it took a number of years for me to decide they were "good".
>>
>> But what is good, or what is better? If, for example. you have high
>> cholesterol, one doctor might recommend that you take LIVALO for your
>> problem, but another doctor might recommend lower doses of LIVALO but
>> also strongly recommend that you change your diet, lose weight and
>> start to exercise.
>>
>> Which is the better doctor?
>>
>> And which is the doctor that most will recommend to their friends?
>>
>
>That's a complex question. The brother of a good friend is
>a suburban GP who says that mothers bring children in with
>viruses and demand antibiotics. His choice is either to do
>the right thing and say no, resulting in a reputation as a
>'bad doctor' or to prescribe a very low dose of antibiotics
>with the understanding that most childhood viruses will
>clear them selves in a few days with rest.
>
>And you can double that problem for doctors asked to
>prescribe morphine and similar. The patient knows that
>someone else (insurance company or welfare) will pick up
>most of the office visit and prescription charges, leaving
>the patient with a saleable item.
>
>Add in that few MDs are independent professionals now.
>They're employees of large entities and capitated, which
>means time spent with a patient is strongly discouraged.
>
>How to approach that problem? Systematize pill pushing!
>https://www.bloombergquint.com/businessweek/cerebral-app-over-prescribed-adhd-meds-ex-employees-say
>
>Define 'good doctor' any way you like but the degradation of
>the medical industry (from the patient's view, not the
>revenue side of the industry) continues.

I'm not sure that I agree with you. I have a pacemaker, which keeps my
heart beating regularly. Not that many years ago there weren't any
such devices and I'd likely be dead today.

Hardly degradation (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

Re: Cycling injuries

<t22vnp$o44$1@dont-email.me>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=54143&group=rec.bicycles.tech#54143

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Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: am...@yellowjersey.org (AMuzi)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Cycling injuries
Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2022 20:21:56 -0500
Organization: Yellow Jersey, Ltd.
Lines: 102
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 by: AMuzi - Thu, 31 Mar 2022 01:21 UTC

On 3/30/2022 6:01 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Wed, 30 Mar 2022 07:33:01 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>> On 3/30/2022 3:05 AM, John B. wrote:
>>> On Tue, 29 Mar 2022 23:37:56 -0700 (PDT), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
>>> <ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Tuesday, March 29, 2022 at 7:57:00 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 29 Mar 2022 14:22:58 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>>>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tuesday, March 29, 2022 at 12:51:18 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>> On Tuesday, March 29, 2022 at 8:40:22 AM UTC-7, timoth...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>> This is one of those rare occasions where I have to partially side with Tom.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> When you need a neurologist you need a good one, and my experiences had me shopping a bit to find one that was a good fit. The first one was totally useless - perhaps he would have been good if my symptoms had been different but for me he was the wrong one.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That said, lining one up ahead of time seems unlikely to work. You don't know what your problem is going to be, and as has been pointed out bicycle injuries are not the majority of reasons to see one; add to that by the time you need one the local guy will have retired or been bought out.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The strategy I recommend is first trust your primary care to recommend someone, then if you have the slightest doubt demand a second opinion. That's what I did and it worked out well.
>>>>>>> Well you're correct that some neurologists are not good. They mostly treat various forms of dementia and entirely forget treating concussion. But knowing where a couple of neurologists are is important if you need a good one. I was initially sent to a very bad one by my MD and he didn't know anything. And then my MD refused to look any further. Thanks to my friend he got me to a good one at Stanford (I suppose having football team members there doesn't hurt).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I showed how many head injuries there are each year and while fewer of those are concussions than football causes that is STILL a considerable number of serious concussions. Apparently the "group of 5" don't believe in being prepared.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tell us Tommy boy, have you researched and lined up a doctor for the following much more likely physical problems:
>>>>>> 1. Orthopedist for osteoporosis.
>>>>>> 2. Rheumatologist for arthritis.
>>>>>> 3. Cardiologist for heart attack.
>>>>>> 4. Proctologist for hemorrhoids.
>>>>>> 5. Podiatrist for foot problems.
>>>>>> 6. Ophthalmologist for eye problems.
>>>>>> 7. Nephrologist for your kidney disease.
>>>>>> 8. Hematologist for blood clots.
>>>>>> 9. Otolaryngologist for hearing loss.
>>>>>> 10. And last but certainly not least, actually this is the most important doctor of all for you Tommy to research and find a really good one, a PSYCHIATRIST for all of Tommy boy's mental irregularities. And Tommy, add in a Psychologist too. They are not medical doctors, but your problems are far more mental than physical, so a Psychologist will be able to help you a lot.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tommy, if you have not researched and found a good doctor for all of these likely issues, then you are just lying and yipping and yapping about your neurologist. These are more likely to occur and much higher up on the list of doctors for you to research. Get to it Tommy boy. Report back when you have every one of these doctors on your speed dial.
>>>>> But, how does one select a "good" doctor? Do doctors publish their
>>>>> grades in Medical school? Do doctors publish win/loss scores for
>>>>> patients cured/died? How does one pick a "good" doctor?
>>>>> --
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>
>>>>> John B.
>>>>
>>>> To be honest, I don't think you know they are "good" until after you see them for awhile. And I suppose you judge how "good" they were by whether you got better. In my lifetime of doctor seeing, I have been fortunate enough to have had some really "good" doctors. And would recommend them to others if I was asked. But it took a number of years for me to decide they were "good".
>>>
>>> But what is good, or what is better? If, for example. you have high
>>> cholesterol, one doctor might recommend that you take LIVALO for your
>>> problem, but another doctor might recommend lower doses of LIVALO but
>>> also strongly recommend that you change your diet, lose weight and
>>> start to exercise.
>>>
>>> Which is the better doctor?
>>>
>>> And which is the doctor that most will recommend to their friends?
>>>
>>
>> That's a complex question. The brother of a good friend is
>> a suburban GP who says that mothers bring children in with
>> viruses and demand antibiotics. His choice is either to do
>> the right thing and say no, resulting in a reputation as a
>> 'bad doctor' or to prescribe a very low dose of antibiotics
>> with the understanding that most childhood viruses will
>> clear them selves in a few days with rest.
>>
>> And you can double that problem for doctors asked to
>> prescribe morphine and similar. The patient knows that
>> someone else (insurance company or welfare) will pick up
>> most of the office visit and prescription charges, leaving
>> the patient with a saleable item.
>>
>> Add in that few MDs are independent professionals now.
>> They're employees of large entities and capitated, which
>> means time spent with a patient is strongly discouraged.
>>
>> How to approach that problem? Systematize pill pushing!
>> https://www.bloombergquint.com/businessweek/cerebral-app-over-prescribed-adhd-meds-ex-employees-say
>>
>> Define 'good doctor' any way you like but the degradation of
>> the medical industry (from the patient's view, not the
>> revenue side of the industry) continues.
>
> I'm not sure that I agree with you. I have a pacemaker, which keeps my
> heart beating regularly. Not that many years ago there weren't any
> such devices and I'd likely be dead today.
>
> Hardly degradation (:-)
>

I wrote 'degradation' not 'disappearance'.

Pacemakers have been around for some 70 years or so (with
regular improvement I might add) which makes them hardly an
exemplar of the current problems.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

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