Since the Merlin wasn't selling as a bare frame I decided to put a complete bike together. I was short brakes and levers and I picked up a set of Record Skeleton Brakes and Ultra Shift levers. Although they look like new, they are the older full left lever shift with the fine adjustments which are, in my opinion, better than the later three step 2 ring shifters.

There are some minor parts I need to get. English Power Torque cups and a top cap for the handlebar. I already have handlebar ends so I can use cork tape and wrap the integrated bars out to the center. I don't run cables internal to the bars anymore It is a waste of time and adds increased friction from the sharp bends. On an old fashion frame there are no internal cabling anyway. I had an integrated bar around that I had replaced with a lighter one.

Everything but the cups will arrive tomorrow. The rear derailleur, front derailleur, brakes and levers are mounted. The seat post and saddle are mounted. I have the Look Standard Keo pedals I will mount when the cranks are installed.

Somehow I lost a piece of the seat post so I attempted to use the components from a Titanium seatpost from a Chinese source that was ALL screwed up - oblong and bent. I messed with this for an hour before realizing that the titanium locking post to was more narrow than the carbon seatpost. Looking through my components I discovered an aluminum seat post that was lighter. It too was missing a small part of the locking mechanism but i had a Cannondale post that was heavy but had a part that fit perfectly and the Bontrager Montrose Saddle slipped right in in seconds.

At the moment, without cranks, cables, cassette and bar tape the bike weighs 15 lbs. This is with a set of fake DT Swiss Wheels. I will pick up a set of DT 350's with like new rims tomorrow morning. These will probably be lighter. I had mounted a set of Michelin 28's on it but the rear tube has a very slow leak that I will have to chase down. I have a Campy 11-28 cassette and I'll save a superlight 10 speed cassette just in case. Since I intend to sell this to someone a great deal younger than me I am installing a 52-39 crankset.

I am not especially happy with deep aero wheels so I think that the DT Swiss should be serviceable. Now all I have to do is wait for a couple of minor parts. This posting will give Frank a chance to demonstrate his vast knowledge of bicycles. Not. He seems to believe that he is another Jobst only now that Jobst is gone and would take care of him in rather short order.

On Monday, March 28, 2022 at 7:12:41 PM UTC-7, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Monday, March 28, 2022 at 2:58:37 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > This posting will give Frank a chance to demonstrate his vast knowledge of bicycles. Not. He seems to believe that he is another Jobst only now that Jobst is gone and would take care of him in rather short order.
> You seem to have a fascination with Jobst Brandt. While his wheel building knowledge is not in dispute. I wonder how much knowledge he would have about current bicycle mechanics. He used 1960s and 1970s friction shifting Campagnolo parts. And I seem to recall he broke the old Campagnolo cranks frequently. No STI or Ergo for him. No dual pivot caliper brakes. No disc brakes. No Garmin computers for him. No power meter cranksets. No clipless pedals for him. So is any of the knowledge Brandt had relevant today? Even the wheels he built are not really used much today. Now I am not saying Brandt could not have learned all about current bicycle mechanics if he chose. But would he?

Jobst was, IMO, a pretty brilliant engineer. He was very good at detailed analysis of mechanical components. As
just one example, he was able to clearly explain how the forces and stresses allow a tire made of fabric that supports
only tension can hold up a vehicle. I can think of only two or three other people posting here who could make that clear.
(FWIW, Tom is certainly not one of them!)

That's just one example of Jobst's knowledge. But the relevance of that is that I believe Jobst would be very good at
analyzing the characteristics, benefits and detriments of current technology. Engineers very frequently deal with
analysis of new technology. Part of their job is figuring out characteristics of technology they don't yet have in
front of them. That's different than non-engineers, who often fall for promotional claims, then find only by
trial and error that those claims are lies or fantasies.

Jobst was a very competent engineer. Understanding clipless, disc brakes, power meters etc. would have been well
within his capabilities.

- Frank Krygowski

On Tuesday, March 29, 2022 at 7:22:27 AM UTC+2, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Monday, March 28, 2022 at 10:44:06 PM UTC-5, frkr...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Monday, March 28, 2022 at 7:12:41 PM UTC-7, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > On Monday, March 28, 2022 at 2:58:37 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > This posting will give Frank a chance to demonstrate his vast knowledge of bicycles. Not. He seems to believe that he is another Jobst only now that Jobst is gone and would take care of him in rather short order.
> > > You seem to have a fascination with Jobst Brandt. While his wheel building knowledge is not in dispute. I wonder how much knowledge he would have about current bicycle mechanics. He used 1960s and 1970s friction shifting Campagnolo parts. And I seem to recall he broke the old Campagnolo cranks frequently. No STI or Ergo for him. No dual pivot caliper brakes. No disc brakes. No Garmin computers for him. No power meter cranksets. No clipless pedals for him. So is any of the knowledge Brandt had relevant today? Even the wheels he built are not really used much today. Now I am not saying Brandt could not have learned all about current bicycle mechanics if he chose. But would he?
> > Jobst was, IMO, a pretty brilliant engineer. He was very good at detailed analysis of mechanical components. As
> > just one example, he was able to clearly explain how the forces and stresses allow a tire made of fabric that supports
> > only tension can hold up a vehicle. I can think of only two or three other people posting here who could make that clear.
> > (FWIW, Tom is certainly not one of them!)
> >
> > That's just one example of Jobst's knowledge. But the relevance of that is that I believe Jobst would be very good at
> > analyzing the characteristics, benefits and detriments of current technology. Engineers very frequently deal with
> > analysis of new technology. Part of their job is figuring out characteristics of technology they don't yet have in
> > front of them. That's different than non-engineers, who often fall for promotional claims, then find only by
> > trial and error that those claims are lies or fantasies.
> >
> > Jobst was a very competent engineer. Understanding clipless, disc brakes, power meters etc. would have been well
> > within his capabilities.
> >
> > - Frank Krygowski
> I am going to disagree. I understand what you are saying about Brandt's abilities. And for every day, mundane engineering analysis, it probably applies very well. But on bicycle internet forums, people ask such questions as:
> 1. Will my Campagnolo 11 speed wheelset work with my Shimano 11 speed electronic Di2 shifting system?
> 2. Is Assos bib shorts good quality?
> 3. What is the best method to custom mold my Bont cycling shoes?
> 4. Will my Shimao DuraAce 99000 STI shifters work perfectly with my Shimano DX8000ZZY long cage rear derailleur?
> 5. Will it shift my 11-44 tooth cogset on my single crank gravel bike?
> 6. What are the benefits of SPD-SL or Look Keo or Time Xpro or Speedplay?
> Simply put, are any of Jobst Brandt's cycling experiences applicable to modern technical questions? And by technical, I don't really mean technical, but what is new and used today by bicyclists.
>
> Analogy time. I am sure there are some very old and ancient car mechanics who can take apart and reassemble a carburetor from the 1960s or 1970s blindfolded, upside down, and drunk after chugging a fifth of Jack Daniels. But can they work on a fuel injection system on a 2022 Toyota Camry? Or hook the car up to the computer diagnosis systems that search the car computer for the problem?

I can remember Jobs comment on a link to a photo of a modern chain ring. He commented that he never saw such a worn chain ring. The chain ring was brand new but with all the special shaped tooths of a modern chain ring to make shifting quicker/easier/quieter. That was embarrassing.

Lou

On 3/28/2022 7:12 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:

<snip>

> Why do you have a set of fake DT Swiss Wheels? Did you buy them from a shady source for a cheap price and think you were getting a great deal only to discover you had been taken advantage of by buying fakes? When people buy fake Rolexes they think they are buying real Rolexes but only discover later that they bought fake junk, not the real thing.

I think that most people realize when they are buying fake Rolexes or
other ridiculously low-priced luxury brands. I recall being in Taiwan
about 25 years ago and two of my colleagues wanted fake Rolexes. I had
no interest. The secretary in our office called someone who came in with
a big briefcase full of various replica watches.

My neighbor used to work at the Louis Vuitton store and now works at a
Hermes store. One thing they do for customers is to check if something
they purchased elsewhere is fake or genuine.

There are some "unauthorized retailers" that sell genuine luxury goods
and at least in the U.S. the Magnuson Moss Warranty Act protects the
buyers of genuine goods no matter where they are purchased (if the same
product is sold in the United States).

On Monday, March 28, 2022 at 11:15:24 PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Tuesday, March 29, 2022 at 7:22:27 AM UTC+2, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > On Monday, March 28, 2022 at 10:44:06 PM UTC-5, frkr...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Monday, March 28, 2022 at 7:12:41 PM UTC-7, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > > On Monday, March 28, 2022 at 2:58:37 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > This posting will give Frank a chance to demonstrate his vast knowledge of bicycles. Not. He seems to believe that he is another Jobst only now that Jobst is gone and would take care of him in rather short order.
> > > > You seem to have a fascination with Jobst Brandt. While his wheel building knowledge is not in dispute. I wonder how much knowledge he would have about current bicycle mechanics. He used 1960s and 1970s friction shifting Campagnolo parts. And I seem to recall he broke the old Campagnolo cranks frequently. No STI or Ergo for him. No dual pivot caliper brakes. No disc brakes. No Garmin computers for him. No power meter cranksets. No clipless pedals for him. So is any of the knowledge Brandt had relevant today? Even the wheels he built are not really used much today. Now I am not saying Brandt could not have learned all about current bicycle mechanics if he chose. But would he?
> > > Jobst was, IMO, a pretty brilliant engineer. He was very good at detailed analysis of mechanical components. As
> > > just one example, he was able to clearly explain how the forces and stresses allow a tire made of fabric that supports
> > > only tension can hold up a vehicle. I can think of only two or three other people posting here who could make that clear.
> > > (FWIW, Tom is certainly not one of them!)
> > >
> > > That's just one example of Jobst's knowledge. But the relevance of that is that I believe Jobst would be very good at
> > > analyzing the characteristics, benefits and detriments of current technology. Engineers very frequently deal with
> > > analysis of new technology. Part of their job is figuring out characteristics of technology they don't yet have in
> > > front of them. That's different than non-engineers, who often fall for promotional claims, then find only by
> > > trial and error that those claims are lies or fantasies.
> > >
> > > Jobst was a very competent engineer. Understanding clipless, disc brakes, power meters etc. would have been well
> > > within his capabilities.
> > >
> > > - Frank Krygowski
> > I am going to disagree. I understand what you are saying about Brandt's abilities. And for every day, mundane engineering analysis, it probably applies very well. But on bicycle internet forums, people ask such questions as:
> > 1. Will my Campagnolo 11 speed wheelset work with my Shimano 11 speed electronic Di2 shifting system?
> > 2. Is Assos bib shorts good quality?
> > 3. What is the best method to custom mold my Bont cycling shoes?
> > 4. Will my Shimao DuraAce 99000 STI shifters work perfectly with my Shimano DX8000ZZY long cage rear derailleur?
> > 5. Will it shift my 11-44 tooth cogset on my single crank gravel bike?
> > 6. What are the benefits of SPD-SL or Look Keo or Time Xpro or Speedplay?
> > Simply put, are any of Jobst Brandt's cycling experiences applicable to modern technical questions? And by technical, I don't really mean technical, but what is new and used today by bicyclists.
> >
> > Analogy time. I am sure there are some very old and ancient car mechanics who can take apart and reassemble a carburetor from the 1960s or 1970s blindfolded, upside down, and drunk after chugging a fifth of Jack Daniels. But can they work on a fuel injection system on a 2022 Toyota Camry? Or hook the car up to the computer diagnosis systems that search the car computer for the problem?
> I can remember Jobs comment on a link to a photo of a modern chain ring. He commented that he never saw such a worn chain ring. The chain ring was brand new but with all the special shaped tooths of a modern chain ring to make shifting quicker/easier/quieter. That was embarrassing.

I bought the set of wheels from a man and they are nearly new., They have DT Swiss rims but it turns out that the hubs were not from them. They were aware that people were making wheels with their rims and selling them off as DT Swiss wheels. I will say this - the hubs, though not DT Swiss are very high quality. I just replaced these with another set of DT Swiss and the hubs are better, but that is like the difference between good and very good. I'm only waiting for small parts now to finish off the Merlin - the Power Torque cups, the 10 speed chain and some minor parts. I also have to adjust the brake shoes. Record brakes are so much better than the lower end ones such as Chorus and below. One of the irritating things about Campy 10 speeds is that the axle sticks out so little that the rear wheel rocks about.. So you have to be careful to center the rear wheel before locking it in. The front is different and seats well.

What I think is that Campy could have improved their line by making a new 11 speed-like rear derailleur on a 9 speed group so that everything isn't crushed between the dropouts. Very few people ride like Froome with high cadence and very close ratios.

On 3/29/2022 1:22 AM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Monday, March 28, 2022 at 10:44:06 PM UTC-5, frkr...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Monday, March 28, 2022 at 7:12:41 PM UTC-7, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>> On Monday, March 28, 2022 at 2:58:37 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> This posting will give Frank a chance to demonstrate his vast knowledge of bicycles. Not. He seems to believe that he is another Jobst only now that Jobst is gone and would take care of him in rather short order.
>>> You seem to have a fascination with Jobst Brandt. While his wheel building knowledge is not in dispute. I wonder how much knowledge he would have about current bicycle mechanics. He used 1960s and 1970s friction shifting Campagnolo parts. And I seem to recall he broke the old Campagnolo cranks frequently. No STI or Ergo for him. No dual pivot caliper brakes. No disc brakes. No Garmin computers for him. No power meter cranksets. No clipless pedals for him. So is any of the knowledge Brandt had relevant today? Even the wheels he built are not really used much today. Now I am not saying Brandt could not have learned all about current bicycle mechanics if he chose. But would he?
>> Jobst was, IMO, a pretty brilliant engineer. He was very good at detailed analysis of mechanical components. As
>> just one example, he was able to clearly explain how the forces and stresses allow a tire made of fabric that supports
>> only tension can hold up a vehicle. I can think of only two or three other people posting here who could make that clear.
>> (FWIW, Tom is certainly not one of them!)
>>
>> That's just one example of Jobst's knowledge. But the relevance of that is that I believe Jobst would be very good at
>> analyzing the characteristics, benefits and detriments of current technology. Engineers very frequently deal with
>> analysis of new technology. Part of their job is figuring out characteristics of technology they don't yet have in
>> front of them. That's different than non-engineers, who often fall for promotional claims, then find only by
>> trial and error that those claims are lies or fantasies.
>>
>> Jobst was a very competent engineer. Understanding clipless, disc brakes, power meters etc. would have been well
>> within his capabilities.
>>
>> - Frank Krygowski
>
> I am going to disagree. I understand what you are saying about Brandt's abilities. And for every day, mundane engineering analysis, it probably applies very well. But on bicycle internet forums, people ask such questions as:
> 1. Will my Campagnolo 11 speed wheelset work with my Shimano 11 speed electronic Di2 shifting system?
> 2. Is Assos bib shorts good quality?
> 3. What is the best method to custom mold my Bont cycling shoes?
> 4. Will my Shimao DuraAce 99000 STI shifters work perfectly with my Shimano DX8000ZZY long cage rear derailleur?
> 5. Will it shift my 11-44 tooth cogset on my single crank gravel bike?
> 6. What are the benefits of SPD-SL or Look Keo or Time Xpro or Speedplay?
> Simply put, are any of Jobst Brandt's cycling experiences applicable to modern technical questions? And by technical, I don't really mean technical, but what is new and used today by bicyclists.

First, those are very low level "technical" questions. Do they even
qualify?

Most are mere compatibility questions, and I know of no evidence that
Jobst would be any worse at researching "will this mechanism shift that
cogset" than anyone else. You don't generally need to own the equipment
to answer those questions.

Others are solicitations for advertisements. "Are these any good?" or
"Which brand is best?" are the sorts of questions answered in fluff
pieces in Better Homes & Gardens... or, worse, _Buycycling_ magazine.

> Analogy time. I am sure there are some very old and ancient car mechanics who can take apart and reassemble a carburetor from the 1960s or 1970s blindfolded, upside down, and drunk after chugging a fifth of Jack Daniels. But can they work on a fuel injection system on a 2022 Toyota Camry? Or hook the car up to the computer diagnosis systems that search the car computer for the problem?

I think you don't grasp the difference between a competent engineer and
a mechanic.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 3/29/2022 2:15 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Tuesday, March 29, 2022 at 7:22:27 AM UTC+2, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
>> On Monday, March 28, 2022 at 10:44:06 PM UTC-5, frkr...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Monday, March 28, 2022 at 7:12:41 PM UTC-7, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>> On Monday, March 28, 2022 at 2:58:37 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>> This posting will give Frank a chance to demonstrate his vast knowledge of bicycles. Not. He seems to believe that he is another Jobst only now that Jobst is gone and would take care of him in rather short order.
>>>> You seem to have a fascination with Jobst Brandt. While his wheel building knowledge is not in dispute. I wonder how much knowledge he would have about current bicycle mechanics. He used 1960s and 1970s friction shifting Campagnolo parts. And I seem to recall he broke the old Campagnolo cranks frequently. No STI or Ergo for him. No dual pivot caliper brakes. No disc brakes. No Garmin computers for him. No power meter cranksets. No clipless pedals for him. So is any of the knowledge Brandt had relevant today? Even the wheels he built are not really used much today. Now I am not saying Brandt could not have learned all about current bicycle mechanics if he chose. But would he?
>>> Jobst was, IMO, a pretty brilliant engineer. He was very good at detailed analysis of mechanical components. As
>>> just one example, he was able to clearly explain how the forces and stresses allow a tire made of fabric that supports
>>> only tension can hold up a vehicle. I can think of only two or three other people posting here who could make that clear.
>>> (FWIW, Tom is certainly not one of them!)
>>>
>>> That's just one example of Jobst's knowledge. But the relevance of that is that I believe Jobst would be very good at
>>> analyzing the characteristics, benefits and detriments of current technology. Engineers very frequently deal with
>>> analysis of new technology. Part of their job is figuring out characteristics of technology they don't yet have in
>>> front of them. That's different than non-engineers, who often fall for promotional claims, then find only by
>>> trial and error that those claims are lies or fantasies.
>>>
>>> Jobst was a very competent engineer. Understanding clipless, disc brakes, power meters etc. would have been well
>>> within his capabilities.
>>>
>>> - Frank Krygowski
>> I am going to disagree. I understand what you are saying about Brandt's abilities. And for every day, mundane engineering analysis, it probably applies very well. But on bicycle internet forums, people ask such questions as:
>> 1. Will my Campagnolo 11 speed wheelset work with my Shimano 11 speed electronic Di2 shifting system?
>> 2. Is Assos bib shorts good quality?
>> 3. What is the best method to custom mold my Bont cycling shoes?
>> 4. Will my Shimao DuraAce 99000 STI shifters work perfectly with my Shimano DX8000ZZY long cage rear derailleur?
>> 5. Will it shift my 11-44 tooth cogset on my single crank gravel bike?
>> 6. What are the benefits of SPD-SL or Look Keo or Time Xpro or Speedplay?
>> Simply put, are any of Jobst Brandt's cycling experiences applicable to modern technical questions? And by technical, I don't really mean technical, but what is new and used today by bicyclists.
>>
>> Analogy time. I am sure there are some very old and ancient car mechanics who can take apart and reassemble a carburetor from the 1960s or 1970s blindfolded, upside down, and drunk after chugging a fifth of Jack Daniels. But can they work on a fuel injection system on a 2022 Toyota Camry? Or hook the car up to the computer diagnosis systems that search the car computer for the problem?
>
>
> I can remember Jobs comment on a link to a photo of a modern chain ring. He commented that he never saw such a worn chain ring. The chain ring was brand new but with all the special shaped tooths of a modern chain ring to make shifting quicker/easier/quieter. That was embarrassing.

Yes, Jobst was imperfect - um, like many people! I'm not saying he was
always correct. He and I disagreed on certain technical points, and on
other matters related to bicycling. That is part of what got us
corresponding a bit. But I still say he was unusually brilliant.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Tue, 29 Mar 2022 08:00:46 -0700, sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com>
wrote:

>On 3/28/2022 7:12 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>> Why do you have a set of fake DT Swiss Wheels? Did you buy them from a shady source for a cheap price and think you were getting a great deal only to discover you had been taken advantage of by buying fakes? When people buy fake Rolexes they think they are buying real Rolexes but only discover later that they bought fake junk, not the real thing.
>
>I think that most people realize when they are buying fake Rolexes or
>other ridiculously low-priced luxury brands. I recall being in Taiwan
>about 25 years ago and two of my colleagues wanted fake Rolexes. I had
>no interest. The secretary in our office called someone who came in with
>a big briefcase full of various replica watches.
>
>My neighbor used to work at the Louis Vuitton store and now works at a
>Hermes store. One thing they do for customers is to check if something
>they purchased elsewhere is fake or genuine.
>
>There are some "unauthorized retailers" that sell genuine luxury goods
>and at least in the U.S. the Magnuson Moss Warranty Act protects the
>buyers of genuine goods no matter where they are purchased (if the same
>product is sold in the United States).

Years ago a good friend used to buy fake Rolex watches in Singapore -
for some reason there were people selling fake watches in "flea
markets" there - and bring them back to Jakarta and give them to his
friends, telling them that they were fake.

And in many cases the "friends" used to flaunt the fake watches just
as though they were real :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Tue, 29 Mar 2022 16:52:04 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 3/29/2022 1:22 AM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
>> On Monday, March 28, 2022 at 10:44:06 PM UTC-5, frkr...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Monday, March 28, 2022 at 7:12:41 PM UTC-7, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>> On Monday, March 28, 2022 at 2:58:37 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>> This posting will give Frank a chance to demonstrate his vast knowledge of bicycles. Not. He seems to believe that he is another Jobst only now that Jobst is gone and would take care of him in rather short order.
>>>> You seem to have a fascination with Jobst Brandt. While his wheel building knowledge is not in dispute. I wonder how much knowledge he would have about current bicycle mechanics. He used 1960s and 1970s friction shifting Campagnolo parts. And I seem to recall he broke the old Campagnolo cranks frequently. No STI or Ergo for him. No dual pivot caliper brakes. No disc brakes. No Garmin computers for him. No power meter cranksets. No clipless pedals for him. So is any of the knowledge Brandt had relevant today? Even the wheels he built are not really used much today. Now I am not saying Brandt could not have learned all about current bicycle mechanics if he chose. But would he?
>>> Jobst was, IMO, a pretty brilliant engineer. He was very good at detailed analysis of mechanical components. As
>>> just one example, he was able to clearly explain how the forces and stresses allow a tire made of fabric that supports
>>> only tension can hold up a vehicle. I can think of only two or three other people posting here who could make that clear.
>>> (FWIW, Tom is certainly not one of them!)
>>>
>>> That's just one example of Jobst's knowledge. But the relevance of that is that I believe Jobst would be very good at
>>> analyzing the characteristics, benefits and detriments of current technology. Engineers very frequently deal with
>>> analysis of new technology. Part of their job is figuring out characteristics of technology they don't yet have in
>>> front of them. That's different than non-engineers, who often fall for promotional claims, then find only by
>>> trial and error that those claims are lies or fantasies.
>>>
>>> Jobst was a very competent engineer. Understanding clipless, disc brakes, power meters etc. would have been well
>>> within his capabilities.
>>>
>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>
>> I am going to disagree. I understand what you are saying about Brandt's abilities. And for every day, mundane engineering analysis, it probably applies very well. But on bicycle internet forums, people ask such questions as:
>> 1. Will my Campagnolo 11 speed wheelset work with my Shimano 11 speed electronic Di2 shifting system?
>> 2. Is Assos bib shorts good quality?
>> 3. What is the best method to custom mold my Bont cycling shoes?
>> 4. Will my Shimao DuraAce 99000 STI shifters work perfectly with my Shimano DX8000ZZY long cage rear derailleur?
>> 5. Will it shift my 11-44 tooth cogset on my single crank gravel bike?
>> 6. What are the benefits of SPD-SL or Look Keo or Time Xpro or Speedplay?
>> Simply put, are any of Jobst Brandt's cycling experiences applicable to modern technical questions? And by technical, I don't really mean technical, but what is new and used today by bicyclists.
>
>First, those are very low level "technical" questions. Do they even
>qualify?
>
>Most are mere compatibility questions, and I know of no evidence that
>Jobst would be any worse at researching "will this mechanism shift that
>cogset" than anyone else. You don't generally need to own the equipment
>to answer those questions.
>
>Others are solicitations for advertisements. "Are these any good?" or
>"Which brand is best?" are the sorts of questions answered in fluff
>pieces in Better Homes & Gardens... or, worse, _Buycycling_ magazine.
>
>> Analogy time. I am sure there are some very old and ancient car mechanics who can take apart and reassemble a carburetor from the 1960s or 1970s blindfolded, upside down, and drunk after chugging a fifth of Jack Daniels. But can they work on a fuel injection system on a 2022 Toyota Camry? Or hook the car up to the computer diagnosis systems that search the car computer for the problem?
>
>I think you don't grasp the difference between a competent engineer and
>a mechanic.

I think that he is comparing someone who was competent, perhaps 60
years ago with someone who is competent in today's world. It doesn't
fit.

I'm reminded of a project we had in Indonesia where we had to build
some bridges across some streams to get the drilling rig to the drill
site. The Oil Company Engineer wanted proof that the bridges were
strong enough and demanded calculation, designs, etc. And now a one of
our U.S. trained engineers could come up with the data.

And before Frank leaps into the fray, I'll tell you that while U.S.
trained engineers certainly could calculate stresses on bridges none
of them had a reference for the strength of tropical hard woods and
this couldn't calculate the strength of the materials (:-)

In our case, as luck would have it, about the time when the discussion
was approaching actual combat a young Australian engineer who's resume
listed working for the Tasmanian Timber Association, or some such
name, came in looking for a job. When I interviewed him I asked if he
had any reference data for tropical timber and he said, "Sure", so we
hired him as a bridge designer.

So he drew up the design and furnished the calculations and strength
data and our guys built the bridges and then rig got moved and it was
a "dry hole" (:-(
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Wednesday, March 30, 2022 at 2:19:14 a.m. UTC-4, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, March 29, 2022 at 3:52:10 PM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 3/29/2022 1:22 AM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > On Monday, March 28, 2022 at 10:44:06 PM UTC-5, frkr...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >> On Monday, March 28, 2022 at 7:12:41 PM UTC-7, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > >>> On Monday, March 28, 2022 at 2:58:37 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >>>> This posting will give Frank a chance to demonstrate his vast knowledge of bicycles. Not. He seems to believe that he is another Jobst only now that Jobst is gone and would take care of him in rather short order.
> > >>> You seem to have a fascination with Jobst Brandt. While his wheel building knowledge is not in dispute. I wonder how much knowledge he would have about current bicycle mechanics. He used 1960s and 1970s friction shifting Campagnolo parts. And I seem to recall he broke the old Campagnolo cranks frequently. No STI or Ergo for him. No dual pivot caliper brakes. No disc brakes. No Garmin computers for him. No power meter cranksets. No clipless pedals for him. So is any of the knowledge Brandt had relevant today? Even the wheels he built are not really used much today. Now I am not saying Brandt could not have learned all about current bicycle mechanics if he chose. But would he?
> > >> Jobst was, IMO, a pretty brilliant engineer. He was very good at detailed analysis of mechanical components. As
> > >> just one example, he was able to clearly explain how the forces and stresses allow a tire made of fabric that supports
> > >> only tension can hold up a vehicle. I can think of only two or three other people posting here who could make that clear.
> > >> (FWIW, Tom is certainly not one of them!)
> > >>
> > >> That's just one example of Jobst's knowledge. But the relevance of that is that I believe Jobst would be very good at
> > >> analyzing the characteristics, benefits and detriments of current technology. Engineers very frequently deal with
> > >> analysis of new technology. Part of their job is figuring out characteristics of technology they don't yet have in
> > >> front of them. That's different than non-engineers, who often fall for promotional claims, then find only by
> > >> trial and error that those claims are lies or fantasies.
> > >>
> > >> Jobst was a very competent engineer. Understanding clipless, disc brakes, power meters etc. would have been well
> > >> within his capabilities.
> > >>
> > >> - Frank Krygowski
> > >
> > > I am going to disagree. I understand what you are saying about Brandt's abilities. And for every day, mundane engineering analysis, it probably applies very well. But on bicycle internet forums, people ask such questions as:
> > > 1. Will my Campagnolo 11 speed wheelset work with my Shimano 11 speed electronic Di2 shifting system?
> > > 2. Is Assos bib shorts good quality?
> > > 3. What is the best method to custom mold my Bont cycling shoes?
> > > 4. Will my Shimao DuraAce 99000 STI shifters work perfectly with my Shimano DX8000ZZY long cage rear derailleur?
> > > 5. Will it shift my 11-44 tooth cogset on my single crank gravel bike?
> > > 6. What are the benefits of SPD-SL or Look Keo or Time Xpro or Speedplay?
> > > Simply put, are any of Jobst Brandt's cycling experiences applicable to modern technical questions? And by technical, I don't really mean technical, but what is new and used today by bicyclists.
> > First, those are very low level "technical" questions. Do they even
> > qualify?
> I did write "And by technical, I don't really mean technical, but what is new and used today by bicyclists."
> Technical as in Andy describing how the Campagnolo Ultra Torque and Power Torque cranksets are different. Or technical as in the original Ergo levers had a cast aluminum piece in it that broke. And had to be replaced with a newer carbon/plastic piece. Or technical as in 10 speed Shimano STI road levers would still work just fine with older Shimano 9 speed mountain rear derailleurs. But 10 speed Shimano STI road levers would not work with newer 10 speed mountain rear derailleurs. Or are Look X-track pedals really compatible with Shimano SPD cleats?
>
> Could Jobst Brandt answer any of these questions? I'd guess no.
> >
> > Most are mere compatibility questions, and I know of no evidence that
> > Jobst would be any worse at researching "will this mechanism shift that
> > cogset" than anyone else. You don't generally need to own the equipment
> > to answer those questions.
> Some are just compatibility questions. But actual knowledge of the compatibility is important too. You can look up many things. But actually making them work is very different. Kind of like drywalling. Its real simple and easy. Until you actually try to do it. Then you might want to talk to someone who has experience doing it.
> >
> > Others are solicitations for advertisements. "Are these any good?" or
> > "Which brand is best?" are the sorts of questions answered in fluff
> > pieces in Better Homes & Gardens... or, worse, _Buycycling_ magazine.
> > > Analogy time. I am sure there are some very old and ancient car mechanics who can take apart and reassemble a carburetor from the 1960s or 1970s blindfolded, upside down, and drunk after chugging a fifth of Jack Daniels.. But can they work on a fuel injection system on a 2022 Toyota Camry? Or hook the car up to the computer diagnosis systems that search the car computer for the problem?
> > I think you don't grasp the difference between a competent engineer and
> > a mechanic.
> OK. Another analogy to make my point that Brandt did not know anything about modern bicycling. In woodworking, there are two ways to build furniture or do any woodworking. Hand and power. A hand power only woodworker uses saws and planes and braces powered by his own muscles. Or for a hand power carpenter, he uses a hammer and saw and brace. A power tool woodworker uses electric or battery saws and drills and planers and shapers to make furniture. And air tools for carpentry.
>
> Both methods work for making furniture or a house. But an expert in one method would be clueless if required to use the other method to make anything. Even though both woodworkers and carpenters know what the final product should be, they have no idea how to get there with the wrong tools.
>
> I should mention that many woodworkers or carpenters know both methods, hand and power. So its relatively easy to learn and do both. Or sort of easy to think you can do both or even one. Actually being good at either requires some skill. But you do have to have the right tools for each method. Different tools for the different methods.
>
>
> >
> > --
> > - Frank Krygowski
I'm positive that if Jobst were still around, that he'd have kept up on the advances in materials for bicycle frames and components as well as any advances in bicycle frame construction, bicycle components and bicycle tires.

Cheers

On Wednesday, March 30, 2022 at 2:26:57 AM UTC-4, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
> On Wednesday, March 30, 2022 at 2:19:14 a.m. UTC-4, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > On Tuesday, March 29, 2022 at 3:52:10 PM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > > On 3/29/2022 1:22 AM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > > On Monday, March 28, 2022 at 10:44:06 PM UTC-5, frkr...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > >> On Monday, March 28, 2022 at 7:12:41 PM UTC-7, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > >>> On Monday, March 28, 2022 at 2:58:37 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > >>>> This posting will give Frank a chance to demonstrate his vast knowledge of bicycles. Not. He seems to believe that he is another Jobst only now that Jobst is gone and would take care of him in rather short order.
> > > >>> You seem to have a fascination with Jobst Brandt. While his wheel building knowledge is not in dispute. I wonder how much knowledge he would have about current bicycle mechanics. He used 1960s and 1970s friction shifting Campagnolo parts. And I seem to recall he broke the old Campagnolo cranks frequently. No STI or Ergo for him. No dual pivot caliper brakes. No disc brakes. No Garmin computers for him. No power meter cranksets. No clipless pedals for him. So is any of the knowledge Brandt had relevant today? Even the wheels he built are not really used much today. Now I am not saying Brandt could not have learned all about current bicycle mechanics if he chose. But would he?
> > > >> Jobst was, IMO, a pretty brilliant engineer. He was very good at detailed analysis of mechanical components. As
> > > >> just one example, he was able to clearly explain how the forces and stresses allow a tire made of fabric that supports
> > > >> only tension can hold up a vehicle. I can think of only two or three other people posting here who could make that clear.
> > > >> (FWIW, Tom is certainly not one of them!)
> > > >>
> > > >> That's just one example of Jobst's knowledge. But the relevance of that is that I believe Jobst would be very good at
> > > >> analyzing the characteristics, benefits and detriments of current technology. Engineers very frequently deal with
> > > >> analysis of new technology. Part of their job is figuring out characteristics of technology they don't yet have in
> > > >> front of them. That's different than non-engineers, who often fall for promotional claims, then find only by
> > > >> trial and error that those claims are lies or fantasies.
> > > >>
> > > >> Jobst was a very competent engineer. Understanding clipless, disc brakes, power meters etc. would have been well
> > > >> within his capabilities.
> > > >>
> > > >> - Frank Krygowski
> > > >
> > > > I am going to disagree. I understand what you are saying about Brandt's abilities. And for every day, mundane engineering analysis, it probably applies very well. But on bicycle internet forums, people ask such questions as:
> > > > 1. Will my Campagnolo 11 speed wheelset work with my Shimano 11 speed electronic Di2 shifting system?
> > > > 2. Is Assos bib shorts good quality?
> > > > 3. What is the best method to custom mold my Bont cycling shoes?
> > > > 4. Will my Shimao DuraAce 99000 STI shifters work perfectly with my Shimano DX8000ZZY long cage rear derailleur?
> > > > 5. Will it shift my 11-44 tooth cogset on my single crank gravel bike?
> > > > 6. What are the benefits of SPD-SL or Look Keo or Time Xpro or Speedplay?
> > > > Simply put, are any of Jobst Brandt's cycling experiences applicable to modern technical questions? And by technical, I don't really mean technical, but what is new and used today by bicyclists.
> > > First, those are very low level "technical" questions. Do they even
> > > qualify?
> > I did write "And by technical, I don't really mean technical, but what is new and used today by bicyclists."
> > Technical as in Andy describing how the Campagnolo Ultra Torque and Power Torque cranksets are different. Or technical as in the original Ergo levers had a cast aluminum piece in it that broke. And had to be replaced with a newer carbon/plastic piece. Or technical as in 10 speed Shimano STI road levers would still work just fine with older Shimano 9 speed mountain rear derailleurs. But 10 speed Shimano STI road levers would not work with newer 10 speed mountain rear derailleurs. Or are Look X-track pedals really compatible with Shimano SPD cleats?
> >
> > Could Jobst Brandt answer any of these questions? I'd guess no.
> > >
> > > Most are mere compatibility questions, and I know of no evidence that
> > > Jobst would be any worse at researching "will this mechanism shift that
> > > cogset" than anyone else. You don't generally need to own the equipment
> > > to answer those questions.
> > Some are just compatibility questions. But actual knowledge of the compatibility is important too. You can look up many things. But actually making them work is very different. Kind of like drywalling. Its real simple and easy. Until you actually try to do it. Then you might want to talk to someone who has experience doing it.
> > >
> > > Others are solicitations for advertisements. "Are these any good?" or
> > > "Which brand is best?" are the sorts of questions answered in fluff
> > > pieces in Better Homes & Gardens... or, worse, _Buycycling_ magazine.
> > > > Analogy time. I am sure there are some very old and ancient car mechanics who can take apart and reassemble a carburetor from the 1960s or 1970s blindfolded, upside down, and drunk after chugging a fifth of Jack Daniels. But can they work on a fuel injection system on a 2022 Toyota Camry? Or hook the car up to the computer diagnosis systems that search the car computer for the problem?
> > > I think you don't grasp the difference between a competent engineer and
> > > a mechanic.
> > OK. Another analogy to make my point that Brandt did not know anything about modern bicycling. In woodworking, there are two ways to build furniture or do any woodworking. Hand and power. A hand power only woodworker uses saws and planes and braces powered by his own muscles. Or for a hand power carpenter, he uses a hammer and saw and brace. A power tool woodworker uses electric or battery saws and drills and planers and shapers to make furniture. And air tools for carpentry.
> >
> > Both methods work for making furniture or a house. But an expert in one method would be clueless if required to use the other method to make anything. Even though both woodworkers and carpenters know what the final product should be, they have no idea how to get there with the wrong tools.
> >
> > I should mention that many woodworkers or carpenters know both methods, hand and power. So its relatively easy to learn and do both. Or sort of easy to think you can do both or even one. Actually being good at either requires some skill. But you do have to have the right tools for each method. Different tools for the different methods.
> >
> >
> > >
> > > --
> > > - Frank Krygowski
> I'm positive that if Jobst were still around, that he'd have kept up on the advances in materials for bicycle frames and components as well as any advances in bicycle frame construction, bicycle components and bicycle tires..
>

+1

On 3/29/2022 4:31 PM, John B. wrote:

<snip>

> And in many cases the "friends" used to flaunt the fake watches just
> as though they were real :-)

Probably a bad ides to flaunt Rolexes, fake or real:
<https://abc7news.com/oakland-theft-robberies-rolex-robbery/11317540/>

On 3/30/2022 2:19 AM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, March 29, 2022 at 3:52:10 PM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 3/29/2022 1:22 AM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>> On Monday, March 28, 2022 at 10:44:06 PM UTC-5, frkr...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> On Monday, March 28, 2022 at 7:12:41 PM UTC-7, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>> On Monday, March 28, 2022 at 2:58:37 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>> This posting will give Frank a chance to demonstrate his vast knowledge of bicycles. Not. He seems to believe that he is another Jobst only now that Jobst is gone and would take care of him in rather short order.
>>>>> You seem to have a fascination with Jobst Brandt. While his wheel building knowledge is not in dispute. I wonder how much knowledge he would have about current bicycle mechanics. He used 1960s and 1970s friction shifting Campagnolo parts. And I seem to recall he broke the old Campagnolo cranks frequently. No STI or Ergo for him. No dual pivot caliper brakes. No disc brakes. No Garmin computers for him. No power meter cranksets. No clipless pedals for him. So is any of the knowledge Brandt had relevant today? Even the wheels he built are not really used much today. Now I am not saying Brandt could not have learned all about current bicycle mechanics if he chose. But would he?
>>>> Jobst was, IMO, a pretty brilliant engineer. He was very good at detailed analysis of mechanical components. As
>>>> just one example, he was able to clearly explain how the forces and stresses allow a tire made of fabric that supports
>>>> only tension can hold up a vehicle. I can think of only two or three other people posting here who could make that clear.
>>>> (FWIW, Tom is certainly not one of them!)
>>>>
>>>> That's just one example of Jobst's knowledge. But the relevance of that is that I believe Jobst would be very good at
>>>> analyzing the characteristics, benefits and detriments of current technology. Engineers very frequently deal with
>>>> analysis of new technology. Part of their job is figuring out characteristics of technology they don't yet have in
>>>> front of them. That's different than non-engineers, who often fall for promotional claims, then find only by
>>>> trial and error that those claims are lies or fantasies.
>>>>
>>>> Jobst was a very competent engineer. Understanding clipless, disc brakes, power meters etc. would have been well
>>>> within his capabilities.
>>>>
>>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>>
>>> I am going to disagree. I understand what you are saying about Brandt's abilities. And for every day, mundane engineering analysis, it probably applies very well. But on bicycle internet forums, people ask such questions as:
>>> 1. Will my Campagnolo 11 speed wheelset work with my Shimano 11 speed electronic Di2 shifting system?
>>> 2. Is Assos bib shorts good quality?
>>> 3. What is the best method to custom mold my Bont cycling shoes?
>>> 4. Will my Shimao DuraAce 99000 STI shifters work perfectly with my Shimano DX8000ZZY long cage rear derailleur?
>>> 5. Will it shift my 11-44 tooth cogset on my single crank gravel bike?
>>> 6. What are the benefits of SPD-SL or Look Keo or Time Xpro or Speedplay?
>>> Simply put, are any of Jobst Brandt's cycling experiences applicable to modern technical questions? And by technical, I don't really mean technical, but what is new and used today by bicyclists.
>> First, those are very low level "technical" questions. Do they even
>> qualify?
>
> I did write "And by technical, I don't really mean technical, but what is new and used today by bicyclists."
> Technical as in Andy describing how the Campagnolo Ultra Torque and Power Torque cranksets are different. Or technical as in the original Ergo levers had a cast aluminum piece in it that broke. And had to be replaced with a newer carbon/plastic piece. Or technical as in 10 speed Shimano STI road levers would still work just fine with older Shimano 9 speed mountain rear derailleurs. But 10 speed Shimano STI road levers would not work with newer 10 speed mountain rear derailleurs. Or are Look X-track pedals really compatible with Shimano SPD cleats?
>
> Could Jobst Brandt answer any of these questions? I'd guess no.

You seem to somehow assume Jobst would never have learned anything about
modern components had he not passed away.

I think that's completely wrong.

To give an example from his time period: He was active in these
discussions at the time when Shimano first unveiled the dual pivot
brake. He didn't use them himself, at least in part because unlike
certain posters, he didn't "churn" through his componentry in response
to every advertisement. But he did discuss those brakes very
intelligently, describing (for example) the difference in force applied
by the left and right brake shoes.

He also gave a lot of negative remarks about the Campagnolo Delta brakes
that appeared back then, although he didn't use those. And it appears he
was correct about the Deltas. (You may notice they are less than popular
these days.)

There's nothing to indicate Jobst would not have been aware of new
technology, and been quite capable of evaluating it. I'd certainly trust
his evaluations over the evaluations of people who buy every new bottom
bracket or Chinese wheelset as soon as it hits the market, then complain
about how nothing seems to work.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Tuesday, March 29, 2022 at 11:26:57 PM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
> On Wednesday, March 30, 2022 at 2:19:14 a.m. UTC-4, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > On Tuesday, March 29, 2022 at 3:52:10 PM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > > On 3/29/2022 1:22 AM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > > On Monday, March 28, 2022 at 10:44:06 PM UTC-5, frkr...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > >> On Monday, March 28, 2022 at 7:12:41 PM UTC-7, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > >>> On Monday, March 28, 2022 at 2:58:37 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > >>>> This posting will give Frank a chance to demonstrate his vast knowledge of bicycles. Not. He seems to believe that he is another Jobst only now that Jobst is gone and would take care of him in rather short order.
> > > >>> You seem to have a fascination with Jobst Brandt. While his wheel building knowledge is not in dispute. I wonder how much knowledge he would have about current bicycle mechanics. He used 1960s and 1970s friction shifting Campagnolo parts. And I seem to recall he broke the old Campagnolo cranks frequently. No STI or Ergo for him. No dual pivot caliper brakes. No disc brakes. No Garmin computers for him. No power meter cranksets. No clipless pedals for him. So is any of the knowledge Brandt had relevant today? Even the wheels he built are not really used much today. Now I am not saying Brandt could not have learned all about current bicycle mechanics if he chose. But would he?
> > > >> Jobst was, IMO, a pretty brilliant engineer. He was very good at detailed analysis of mechanical components. As
> > > >> just one example, he was able to clearly explain how the forces and stresses allow a tire made of fabric that supports
> > > >> only tension can hold up a vehicle. I can think of only two or three other people posting here who could make that clear.
> > > >> (FWIW, Tom is certainly not one of them!)
> > > >>
> > > >> That's just one example of Jobst's knowledge. But the relevance of that is that I believe Jobst would be very good at
> > > >> analyzing the characteristics, benefits and detriments of current technology. Engineers very frequently deal with
> > > >> analysis of new technology. Part of their job is figuring out characteristics of technology they don't yet have in
> > > >> front of them. That's different than non-engineers, who often fall for promotional claims, then find only by
> > > >> trial and error that those claims are lies or fantasies.
> > > >>
> > > >> Jobst was a very competent engineer. Understanding clipless, disc brakes, power meters etc. would have been well
> > > >> within his capabilities.
> > > >>
> > > >> - Frank Krygowski
> > > >
> > > > I am going to disagree. I understand what you are saying about Brandt's abilities. And for every day, mundane engineering analysis, it probably applies very well. But on bicycle internet forums, people ask such questions as:
> > > > 1. Will my Campagnolo 11 speed wheelset work with my Shimano 11 speed electronic Di2 shifting system?
> > > > 2. Is Assos bib shorts good quality?
> > > > 3. What is the best method to custom mold my Bont cycling shoes?
> > > > 4. Will my Shimao DuraAce 99000 STI shifters work perfectly with my Shimano DX8000ZZY long cage rear derailleur?
> > > > 5. Will it shift my 11-44 tooth cogset on my single crank gravel bike?
> > > > 6. What are the benefits of SPD-SL or Look Keo or Time Xpro or Speedplay?
> > > > Simply put, are any of Jobst Brandt's cycling experiences applicable to modern technical questions? And by technical, I don't really mean technical, but what is new and used today by bicyclists.
> > > First, those are very low level "technical" questions. Do they even
> > > qualify?
> > I did write "And by technical, I don't really mean technical, but what is new and used today by bicyclists."
> > Technical as in Andy describing how the Campagnolo Ultra Torque and Power Torque cranksets are different. Or technical as in the original Ergo levers had a cast aluminum piece in it that broke. And had to be replaced with a newer carbon/plastic piece. Or technical as in 10 speed Shimano STI road levers would still work just fine with older Shimano 9 speed mountain rear derailleurs. But 10 speed Shimano STI road levers would not work with newer 10 speed mountain rear derailleurs. Or are Look X-track pedals really compatible with Shimano SPD cleats?
> >
> > Could Jobst Brandt answer any of these questions? I'd guess no.
> > >
> > > Most are mere compatibility questions, and I know of no evidence that
> > > Jobst would be any worse at researching "will this mechanism shift that
> > > cogset" than anyone else. You don't generally need to own the equipment
> > > to answer those questions.
> > Some are just compatibility questions. But actual knowledge of the compatibility is important too. You can look up many things. But actually making them work is very different. Kind of like drywalling. Its real simple and easy. Until you actually try to do it. Then you might want to talk to someone who has experience doing it.
> > >
> > > Others are solicitations for advertisements. "Are these any good?" or
> > > "Which brand is best?" are the sorts of questions answered in fluff
> > > pieces in Better Homes & Gardens... or, worse, _Buycycling_ magazine.
> > > > Analogy time. I am sure there are some very old and ancient car mechanics who can take apart and reassemble a carburetor from the 1960s or 1970s blindfolded, upside down, and drunk after chugging a fifth of Jack Daniels. But can they work on a fuel injection system on a 2022 Toyota Camry? Or hook the car up to the computer diagnosis systems that search the car computer for the problem?
> > > I think you don't grasp the difference between a competent engineer and
> > > a mechanic.
> > OK. Another analogy to make my point that Brandt did not know anything about modern bicycling. In woodworking, there are two ways to build furniture or do any woodworking. Hand and power. A hand power only woodworker uses saws and planes and braces powered by his own muscles. Or for a hand power carpenter, he uses a hammer and saw and brace. A power tool woodworker uses electric or battery saws and drills and planers and shapers to make furniture. And air tools for carpentry.
> >
> > Both methods work for making furniture or a house. But an expert in one method would be clueless if required to use the other method to make anything. Even though both woodworkers and carpenters know what the final product should be, they have no idea how to get there with the wrong tools.
> >
> > I should mention that many woodworkers or carpenters know both methods, hand and power. So its relatively easy to learn and do both. Or sort of easy to think you can do both or even one. Actually being good at either requires some skill. But you do have to have the right tools for each method. Different tools for the different methods.
> >
> >
> > >
> > > --
> > > - Frank Krygowski
> I'm positive that if Jobst were still around, that he'd have kept up on the advances in materials for bicycle frames and components as well as any advances in bicycle frame construction, bicycle components and bicycle tires..

I'm not sure of that. While Jobst was a hell of a rider, he was also quite the traditionalist.

On 3/30/2022 10:31 AM, sms wrote:
> On 3/29/2022 4:31 PM, John B. wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> And in many cases the "friends" used to flaunt the fake
>> watches just
>> as though they were real :-)
>
> Probably a bad ides to flaunt Rolexes, fake or real:
> <https://abc7news.com/oakland-theft-robberies-rolex-robbery/11317540/>
>

+1, same as real ones:
https://nypost.com/2022/03/26/tourist-shot-in-nyc-over-six-figure-watch-doesnt-know-why-he-was-targeted/

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 3/30/2022 5:10 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, March 30, 2022 at 10:51:13 AM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 3/30/2022 2:19 AM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>
>>> I did write "And by technical, I don't really mean technical, but what is new and used today by bicyclists."
>>> Technical as in Andy describing how the Campagnolo Ultra Torque and Power Torque cranksets are different. Or technical as in the original Ergo levers had a cast aluminum piece in it that broke. And had to be replaced with a newer carbon/plastic piece. Or technical as in 10 speed Shimano STI road levers would still work just fine with older Shimano 9 speed mountain rear derailleurs. But 10 speed Shimano STI road levers would not work with newer 10 speed mountain rear derailleurs. Or are Look X-track pedals really compatible with Shimano SPD cleats?
>>>
>>> Could Jobst Brandt answer any of these questions? I'd guess no.
>> You seem to somehow assume Jobst would never have learned anything about
>> modern components had he not passed away.
>
> Brandt died in 2015. Ergo and STI were in widespread usage at that time. I do not know when he stopped participating in this forum. But even if it was 10 years before his death, there were still a whole lot of Ergo and STI usage by then. And prebuilt wheels. And even carbon wheels were used a little by then too. And all kinds of aluminum and carbon and titanium frames. And new whacky and wild cranksets and bottom brackets were also prevalent long before Brandt's death. Basically, everything we have going on today in the bicycle world today, was being done or at least started back in 2005 too. We had not gotten 11 and 12 speed cassettes back then. Or electronic shifters and derailleurs in 2005. Had to wait until about 2010 for electronic Di2 to premier. Hydraulic disk brakes came later too. But most current stuff today was around back in 2005. And definitely by 2015 when Brandt passed away.
>
> I do not recall the exact topics Brandt discussed. Maybe someone else does. But did Brandt talk about 9-10-11 speed Ergo and STI issues? How to fix the shifters or adjust the derailleurs? Which derailleur cages would work with which cassettes? Using mountain bike cranksets with road front derailleurs? Did he discuss installing the press fit bottom brackets? And how to keep them from squeaking and creaking? Did he discuss which 11 speed chain seemed to work best with which 11 speed shifting system? All of these TECHNICAL type questions. He had zero use experience with any of these items.
>
>
>>
>> I think that's completely wrong.
>>
>> To give an example from his time period: He was active in these
>> discussions at the time when Shimano first unveiled the dual pivot
>> brake. He didn't use them himself, at least in part because unlike
>> certain posters, he didn't "churn" through his componentry in response
>> to every advertisement. But he did discuss those brakes very
>> intelligently, describing (for example) the difference in force applied
>> by the left and right brake shoes.
>>
>> He also gave a lot of negative remarks about the Campagnolo Delta brakes
>> that appeared back then, although he didn't use those. And it appears he
>> was correct about the Deltas. (You may notice they are less than popular
>> these days.)
>
> Not really a plus for Brandt on this. I believe everyone on the face of the earth who actually used the Delta brakes screamed and hollered and yelled how awful they were as brakes for actually stopping the bike. I imagine if you went to the deepest darkest jungles of Africa or Brazil and asked a tribesman hunting with a spear about the Delta brakes they would yell and make wild gestures for you to not use them to stop your bicycle. Use a rock or stick instead.
>
>
>
>
>>
>> There's nothing to indicate Jobst would not have been aware of new
>> technology, and been quite capable of evaluating it. I'd certainly trust
>> his evaluations over the evaluations of people who buy every new bottom
>> bracket or Chinese wheelset as soon as it hits the market, then complain
>> about how nothing seems to work.
>
> I'm sure Brandt kept up with the newest components being manufactured. Kept up meaning being aware they existed and reading the description of them. And likely studying the engineering behind them. But that is not the same as actually using them. Or working on them. To reuse a previous analogy. The engineers at US Gypsum may know everything there is to know about the drywall they make. But he may be worth less than dog sh-t when it comes to actually hanging it on the studs and taping and mudding the joints.
>
>
>
>
>
>>
>> --
>> - Frank Krygowski

Mr Brandt is immortal, see his wisdom here:
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/bicycles-faq/part1/

Especially regarding wheels and material failures.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Wednesday, March 30, 2022 at 3:36:19 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 3/30/2022 5:10 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > On Wednesday, March 30, 2022 at 10:51:13 AM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >> On 3/30/2022 2:19 AM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I did write "And by technical, I don't really mean technical, but what is new and used today by bicyclists."
> >>> Technical as in Andy describing how the Campagnolo Ultra Torque and Power Torque cranksets are different. Or technical as in the original Ergo levers had a cast aluminum piece in it that broke. And had to be replaced with a newer carbon/plastic piece. Or technical as in 10 speed Shimano STI road levers would still work just fine with older Shimano 9 speed mountain rear derailleurs. But 10 speed Shimano STI road levers would not work with newer 10 speed mountain rear derailleurs. Or are Look X-track pedals really compatible with Shimano SPD cleats?
> >>>
> >>> Could Jobst Brandt answer any of these questions? I'd guess no.
> >> You seem to somehow assume Jobst would never have learned anything about
> >> modern components had he not passed away.
> >
> > Brandt died in 2015. Ergo and STI were in widespread usage at that time.. I do not know when he stopped participating in this forum. But even if it was 10 years before his death, there were still a whole lot of Ergo and STI usage by then. And prebuilt wheels. And even carbon wheels were used a little by then too. And all kinds of aluminum and carbon and titanium frames. And new whacky and wild cranksets and bottom brackets were also prevalent long before Brandt's death. Basically, everything we have going on today in the bicycle world today, was being done or at least started back in 2005 too. We had not gotten 11 and 12 speed cassettes back then. Or electronic shifters and derailleurs in 2005. Had to wait until about 2010 for electronic Di2 to premier. Hydraulic disk brakes came later too. But most current stuff today was around back in 2005. And definitely by 2015 when Brandt passed away.
> >
> > I do not recall the exact topics Brandt discussed. Maybe someone else does. But did Brandt talk about 9-10-11 speed Ergo and STI issues? How to fix the shifters or adjust the derailleurs? Which derailleur cages would work with which cassettes? Using mountain bike cranksets with road front derailleurs? Did he discuss installing the press fit bottom brackets? And how to keep them from squeaking and creaking? Did he discuss which 11 speed chain seemed to work best with which 11 speed shifting system? All of these TECHNICAL type questions. He had zero use experience with any of these items.
> >
> >
> >>
> >> I think that's completely wrong.
> >>
> >> To give an example from his time period: He was active in these
> >> discussions at the time when Shimano first unveiled the dual pivot
> >> brake. He didn't use them himself, at least in part because unlike
> >> certain posters, he didn't "churn" through his componentry in response
> >> to every advertisement. But he did discuss those brakes very
> >> intelligently, describing (for example) the difference in force applied
> >> by the left and right brake shoes.
> >>
> >> He also gave a lot of negative remarks about the Campagnolo Delta brakes
> >> that appeared back then, although he didn't use those. And it appears he
> >> was correct about the Deltas. (You may notice they are less than popular
> >> these days.)
> >
> > Not really a plus for Brandt on this. I believe everyone on the face of the earth who actually used the Delta brakes screamed and hollered and yelled how awful they were as brakes for actually stopping the bike. I imagine if you went to the deepest darkest jungles of Africa or Brazil and asked a tribesman hunting with a spear about the Delta brakes they would yell and make wild gestures for you to not use them to stop your bicycle. Use a rock or stick instead.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>
> >> There's nothing to indicate Jobst would not have been aware of new
> >> technology, and been quite capable of evaluating it. I'd certainly trust
> >> his evaluations over the evaluations of people who buy every new bottom
> >> bracket or Chinese wheelset as soon as it hits the market, then complain
> >> about how nothing seems to work.
> >
> > I'm sure Brandt kept up with the newest components being manufactured. Kept up meaning being aware they existed and reading the description of them. And likely studying the engineering behind them. But that is not the same as actually using them. Or working on them. To reuse a previous analogy. The engineers at US Gypsum may know everything there is to know about the drywall they make. But he may be worth less than dog sh-t when it comes to actually hanging it on the studs and taping and mudding the joints.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>
> >> --
> >> - Frank Krygowski
> Mr Brandt is immortal, see his wisdom here:
> http://www.faqs.org/faqs/bicycles-faq/part1/
>
> Especially regarding wheels and material failures.

Now that Jobst is safely out of the way, I'm sure that Frank will be able to find vocal fault with him. Jobst and I didn't get along well because I didn't mind contradicting him when he was wrong. But I never had professional differences with him nor him me. Frank on the other hand tells us that no one is having head injuries on bicycles unless they don't know what they're doing. And that despite the wavecell helmets being on the market a mere three years and bicycle accidents being quite rare compared to other forms of transport, we have more than enough data to judge these helmets. It is like talking to a penguin. All puffed up with their own importance until confronted by the killer whale.

On Thursday, March 31, 2022 at 10:17:00 AM UTC-4, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:

> Now that Jobst is safely out of the way, I'm sure that Frank will be able to find vocal fault with him.

Sure sparky, the last few posts from Frank on the subject have been nothing but critical of Jobst (gawd yer a moron).

> Jobst and I didn't get along well because I didn't mind contradicting him when he was wrong.

That's not why.

> But I never had professional differences with him nor him me.

I wish I had the time to dig though the archives and see just how many times you insulted his professional expertise.

> Frank on the other hand tells us that no one is having head injuries on bicycles unless they don't know what they're doing.
> And that despite the wavecell helmets being on the market a mere three years and bicycle accidents being quite rare compared
> to other forms of transport, we have more than enough data to judge these helmets. It is like talking to a penguin. All puffed up
> with their own importance until confronted by the killer whale.

Tom Kunich - Self-appointed Penguin King.

On 3/31/2022 10:16 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
>
> Now that Jobst is safely out of the way, I'm sure that Frank will be able to find vocal fault with him. Jobst and I didn't get along well because I didn't mind contradicting him when he was wrong.

I absolutely differed with Jobst in these forums, and a bit in private
emails. But that was rare, because Jobst I usually agreed with Jobst.

> Frank on the other hand tells us that no one is having head injuries on bicycles unless they don't know what they're doing.

Tom, your Straw Man arguments illustrate your intellectual weakness. If
you're going to disagree with me, disagree with what I _actually_ said,
not with what you wish or pretend I said.

If you want to address something, address the fact that you claim to
have fallen multiple times in just three years. What the hell is going
on with that? Are you sure you should still be riding?

No magic helmet is going to save you if you topple over in front of a bus.

--
- Frank Krygowski