"Starling Cycles founder, Joe McEwan, has released a 36-page document in which he pleads for consumers’ forgiveness for having profiteered from numerous fallacies over the course of his bicycle company’s seven year history of trading. No longer able to look himself in the mirror, Joe finally admits that steel is in fact, not real...."

https://bikerumor.com/starling-cycles-confess-to-profiteering-from-steel-that-is-simply-not-real/

On Friday, April 1, 2022 at 9:03:50 AM UTC-4, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> "Starling Cycles founder, Joe McEwan, has released a 36-page document in which he pleads for consumers’ forgiveness for having profiteered from numerous fallacies over the course of his bicycle company’s seven year history of trading. No longer able to look himself in the mirror, Joe finally admits that steel is in fact, not real...."
>
> https://bikerumor.com/starling-cycles-confess-to-profiteering-from-steel-that-is-simply-not-real/

"You just copy some geometry from another brand and make it a bit longer, lower and slacker. Then you stick a few tubes together and Bob’s your uncle.”

On 4/1/2022 8:03 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> "Starling Cycles founder, Joe McEwan, has released a 36-page document in which he pleads for consumers’ forgiveness for having profiteered from numerous fallacies over the course of his bicycle company’s seven year history of trading. No longer able to look himself in the mirror, Joe finally admits that steel is in fact, not real...."
>
> https://bikerumor.com/starling-cycles-confess-to-profiteering-from-steel-that-is-simply-not-real/
>

I checked into that and it does not appear to be an April
Fool's item.
Pathetic.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Friday, April 1, 2022 at 11:11:28 AM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
> On 4/1/2022 8:03 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > "Starling Cycles founder, Joe McEwan, has released a 36-page document in which he pleads for consumers’ forgiveness for having profiteered from numerous fallacies over the course of his bicycle company’s seven year history of trading. No longer able to look himself in the mirror, Joe finally admits that steel is in fact, not real...."
> >
> > https://bikerumor.com/starling-cycles-confess-to-profiteering-from-steel-that-is-simply-not-real/
> >
>
> I checked into that and it does not appear to be an April
> Fool's item.
> Pathetic.
>

The book is real, but parody.

>Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Happy Anniversary, BTW

On Friday, April 1, 2022 at 8:11:28 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 4/1/2022 8:03 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > "Starling Cycles founder, Joe McEwan, has released a 36-page document in which he pleads for consumers’ forgiveness for having profiteered from numerous fallacies over the course of his bicycle company’s seven year history of trading. No longer able to look himself in the mirror, Joe finally admits that steel is in fact, not real...."
> >
> > https://bikerumor.com/starling-cycles-confess-to-profiteering-from-steel-that-is-simply-not-real/
> >
>
> I checked into that and it does not appear to be an April
> Fool's item.
> Pathetic.
>
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
Uhhh - a cool thousand lbs for a coffee table book not an April Fool's fantasy? Steel is real and that has proven itself over more centuries than we care to think. Single pivots if designed correctly work ok if not as well as multiple pivots. Exactly how good does the average MTB rider need? "After the first million:"? From a backyard shed?

On 4/1/2022 11:20 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, April 1, 2022 at 11:11:28 AM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
>>
>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>
> Happy Anniversary, BTW

Good catch! +1

.... assuming that's real.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 4/1/2022 10:20 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, April 1, 2022 at 11:11:28 AM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 4/1/2022 8:03 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>> "Starling Cycles founder, Joe McEwan, has released a 36-page document in which he pleads for consumers’ forgiveness for having profiteered from numerous fallacies over the course of his bicycle company’s seven year history of trading. No longer able to look himself in the mirror, Joe finally admits that steel is in fact, not real...."
>>>
>>> https://bikerumor.com/starling-cycles-confess-to-profiteering-from-steel-that-is-simply-not-real/
>>>
>>
>> I checked into that and it does not appear to be an April
>> Fool's item.
>> Pathetic.
>>
>
> The book is real, but parody.
>
>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>
> Happy Anniversary, BTW
>

Thank you.

And thank you again; I was taken in as it wasn't beyond
belief, given the modern world as we find it.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Friday, April 1, 2022 at 10:27:42 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, April 1, 2022 at 8:11:28 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > On 4/1/2022 8:03 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > > "Starling Cycles founder, Joe McEwan, has released a 36-page document in which he pleads for consumers’ forgiveness for having profiteered from numerous fallacies over the course of his bicycle company’s seven year history of trading. No longer able to look himself in the mirror, Joe finally admits that steel is in fact, not real...."
> > >
> > > https://bikerumor.com/starling-cycles-confess-to-profiteering-from-steel-that-is-simply-not-real/
> > >
> >
> > I checked into that and it does not appear to be an April
> > Fool's item.
> > Pathetic.
> >
> > --
> > Andrew Muzi
> > <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> > Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> Steel is real and that has proven itself over more centuries than we care to think.

Technically, bicycles have been involved in three centuries. 1800s, 1900s, and 2000s. Three centuries. I can think about three centuries pretty easily. And really its only been about 150 years since bicycles were invented.. One and a half centuries. Easy to think about.

Now that the required chastisement of Tommy is out of the way. When I first read this thread I saw "over the course of his bicycle company’s seven year history of trading." And immediately thought, does this bicycle company trade stocks every day? Are they a financial advisor trading stocks for their bike customers? Or do they make steel bikes and trade them with other bike companies making aluminum or carbon bikes?

On Fri, 1 Apr 2022 17:12:17 -0700 (PDT), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
<ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Friday, April 1, 2022 at 10:27:42 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Friday, April 1, 2022 at 8:11:28 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> > On 4/1/2022 8:03 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> > > "Starling Cycles founder, Joe McEwan, has released a 36-page document in which he pleads for consumers’ forgiveness for having profiteered from numerous fallacies over the course of his bicycle company’s seven year history of trading. No longer able to look himself in the mirror, Joe finally admits that steel is in fact, not real...."
>> > >
>> > > https://bikerumor.com/starling-cycles-confess-to-profiteering-from-steel-that-is-simply-not-real/
>> > >
>> >
>> > I checked into that and it does not appear to be an April
>> > Fool's item.
>> > Pathetic.
>> >
>> > --
>> > Andrew Muzi
>> > <www.yellowjersey.org/>
>> > Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>> Steel is real and that has proven itself over more centuries than we care to think.
>
>Technically, bicycles have been involved in three centuries. 1800s, 1900s, and 2000s. Three centuries. I can think about three centuries pretty easily. And really its only been about 150 years since bicycles were invented. One and a half centuries. Easy to think about.
>
>Now that the required chastisement of Tommy is out of the way. When I first read this thread I saw "over the course of his bicycle company’s seven year history of trading." And immediately thought, does this bicycle company trade stocks every day? Are they a financial advisor trading stocks for their bike customers? Or do they make steel bikes and trade them with other bike companies making aluminum or carbon bikes?

Well, not to bolster anyone's arguments but "steel" an alloy of iron
and carbon, has been in use for thousands of years.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steel
"The earliest known production of steel is seen in pieces of ironware
excavated from an archaeological site in Anatolia (Kaman-Kalehöyük)
and are nearly 4,000 years old, dating from 1800 BC."
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 4/1/2022 7:12 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Friday, April 1, 2022 at 10:27:42 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Friday, April 1, 2022 at 8:11:28 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 4/1/2022 8:03 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>> "Starling Cycles founder, Joe McEwan, has released a 36-page document in which he pleads for consumers’ forgiveness for having profiteered from numerous fallacies over the course of his bicycle company’s seven year history of trading. No longer able to look himself in the mirror, Joe finally admits that steel is in fact, not real...."
>>>>
>>>> https://bikerumor.com/starling-cycles-confess-to-profiteering-from-steel-that-is-simply-not-real/
>>>>
>>>
>>> I checked into that and it does not appear to be an April
>>> Fool's item.
>>> Pathetic.

>> Steel is real and that has proven itself over more centuries than we care to think.
>
> Technically, bicycles have been involved in three centuries. 1800s, 1900s, and 2000s. Three centuries. I can think about three centuries pretty easily. And really its only been about 150 years since bicycles were invented. One and a half centuries. Easy to think about.
>
> Now that the required chastisement of Tommy is out of the way. When I first read this thread I saw "over the course of his bicycle company’s seven year history of trading." And immediately thought, does this bicycle company trade stocks every day? Are they a financial advisor trading stocks for their bike customers? Or do they make steel bikes and trade them with other bike companies making aluminum or carbon bikes?
>

It's a Britishism for 'operates a business', as in Cycle
Trader magazine (to which I once subscribed).

Or this from historian Norman Kilgariff, quoting one W L
Rixon, "Ernie Clements now trades at Ledbury, Herefordshire."
--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Friday, April 1, 2022 at 6:00:59 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 4/1/2022 7:12 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > On Friday, April 1, 2022 at 10:27:42 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> On Friday, April 1, 2022 at 8:11:28 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >>> On 4/1/2022 8:03 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> >>>> "Starling Cycles founder, Joe McEwan, has released a 36-page document in which he pleads for consumers’ forgiveness for having profiteered from numerous fallacies over the course of his bicycle company’s seven year history of trading. No longer able to look himself in the mirror, Joe finally admits that steel is in fact, not real....."
> >>>>
> >>>> https://bikerumor.com/starling-cycles-confess-to-profiteering-from-steel-that-is-simply-not-real/
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> I checked into that and it does not appear to be an April
> >>> Fool's item.
> >>> Pathetic.
> >> Steel is real and that has proven itself over more centuries than we care to think.
> >
> > Technically, bicycles have been involved in three centuries. 1800s, 1900s, and 2000s. Three centuries. I can think about three centuries pretty easily. And really its only been about 150 years since bicycles were invented.. One and a half centuries. Easy to think about.
> >
> > Now that the required chastisement of Tommy is out of the way. When I first read this thread I saw "over the course of his bicycle company’s seven year history of trading." And immediately thought, does this bicycle company trade stocks every day? Are they a financial advisor trading stocks for their bike customers? Or do they make steel bikes and trade them with other bike companies making aluminum or carbon bikes?
> >
>
> It's a Britishism for 'operates a business', as in Cycle
> Trader magazine (to which I once subscribed).
>
> Or this from historian Norman Kilgariff, quoting one W L
> Rixon, "Ernie Clements now trades at Ledbury, Herefordshire."
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
So according to Russell, Chrome Moly Steel which is a product of the 1900's is 3 centuries old. The old plain steel which was almost iron broke all of the time. So they simply made frames heavier and pipe wall thickness deeper.

Real steel that really showed the value of itself was Reynolds 531 and Columbus SL. Then Reynolds developed 853 and Oria made whatever the hell they call their stuff. I had a Basso Loto made out of that Oria and it was just about the perfect material. American tubing may be better and when it is welded instead of lugged and soldered it is nearly the same weight at a titanium frame which they have to build pretty heavy because of the difference in strength.

On 4/1/2022 8:21 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Friday, April 1, 2022 at 6:00:59 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 4/1/2022 7:12 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>> On Friday, April 1, 2022 at 10:27:42 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> On Friday, April 1, 2022 at 8:11:28 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>> On 4/1/2022 8:03 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>>>> "Starling Cycles founder, Joe McEwan, has released a 36-page document in which he pleads for consumers’ forgiveness for having profiteered from numerous fallacies over the course of his bicycle company’s seven year history of trading. No longer able to look himself in the mirror, Joe finally admits that steel is in fact, not real...."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://bikerumor.com/starling-cycles-confess-to-profiteering-from-steel-that-is-simply-not-real/
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I checked into that and it does not appear to be an April
>>>>> Fool's item.
>>>>> Pathetic.
>>>> Steel is real and that has proven itself over more centuries than we care to think.
>>>
>>> Technically, bicycles have been involved in three centuries. 1800s, 1900s, and 2000s. Three centuries. I can think about three centuries pretty easily. And really its only been about 150 years since bicycles were invented. One and a half centuries. Easy to think about.
>>>
>>> Now that the required chastisement of Tommy is out of the way. When I first read this thread I saw "over the course of his bicycle company’s seven year history of trading." And immediately thought, does this bicycle company trade stocks every day? Are they a financial advisor trading stocks for their bike customers? Or do they make steel bikes and trade them with other bike companies making aluminum or carbon bikes?
>>>
>>
>> It's a Britishism for 'operates a business', as in Cycle
>> Trader magazine (to which I once subscribed).
>>
>> Or this from historian Norman Kilgariff, quoting one W L
>> Rixon, "Ernie Clements now trades at Ledbury, Herefordshire."
>

> So according to Russell, Chrome Moly Steel which is a product of the 1900's is 3 centuries old. The old plain steel which was almost iron broke all of the time. So they simply made frames heavier and pipe wall thickness deeper.
>
> Real steel that really showed the value of itself was Reynolds 531 and Columbus SL. Then Reynolds developed 853 and Oria made whatever the hell they call their stuff. I had a Basso Loto made out of that Oria and it was just about the perfect material. American tubing may be better and when it is welded instead of lugged and soldered it is nearly the same weight at a titanium frame which they have to build pretty heavy because of the difference in strength.
>

A lot has changed (~30 years) since Oria tube.

The biggest improvements are not merely trace alloying
materials but rather cleanliness (reduced impurities) and
much better uniformity both in material itself and finish
dimensions/surface. Our modern steels are superior in every
way from Oria or more dramatically from the Reynolds
531/Columbus Cyclex SL era.

Comparisons to titanium are complex and conclusions are not
easily drawn. You're on your own with that. Let's just say
steel and titanium are different.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Friday, April 1, 2022 at 8:21:06 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, April 1, 2022 at 6:00:59 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > On 4/1/2022 7:12 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > On Friday, April 1, 2022 at 10:27:42 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >> On Friday, April 1, 2022 at 8:11:28 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > >>> On 4/1/2022 8:03 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > >>>> "Starling Cycles founder, Joe McEwan, has released a 36-page document in which he pleads for consumers’ forgiveness for having profiteered from numerous fallacies over the course of his bicycle company’s seven year history of trading. No longer able to look himself in the mirror, Joe finally admits that steel is in fact, not real....."
> > >>>>
> > >>>> https://bikerumor.com/starling-cycles-confess-to-profiteering-from-steel-that-is-simply-not-real/
> > >>>>
> > >>>
> > >>> I checked into that and it does not appear to be an April
> > >>> Fool's item.
> > >>> Pathetic.
> > >> Steel is real and that has proven itself over more centuries than we care to think.
> > >
> > > Technically, bicycles have been involved in three centuries. 1800s, 1900s, and 2000s. Three centuries. I can think about three centuries pretty easily. And really its only been about 150 years since bicycles were invented. One and a half centuries. Easy to think about.
> > >
> > > Now that the required chastisement of Tommy is out of the way. When I first read this thread I saw "over the course of his bicycle company’s seven year history of trading." And immediately thought, does this bicycle company trade stocks every day? Are they a financial advisor trading stocks for their bike customers? Or do they make steel bikes and trade them with other bike companies making aluminum or carbon bikes?
> > >
> >
> > It's a Britishism for 'operates a business', as in Cycle
> > Trader magazine (to which I once subscribed).
> >
> > Or this from historian Norman Kilgariff, quoting one W L
> > Rixon, "Ernie Clements now trades at Ledbury, Herefordshire."
> > --
> > Andrew Muzi
> > <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> > Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> So according to Russell, Chrome Moly Steel which is a product of the 1900's is 3 centuries old. The old plain steel which was almost iron broke all of the time. So they simply made frames heavier and pipe wall thickness deeper.

Not sure what you are yipping and yapping about here Tommy. My quote was:

"Technically, bicycles have been involved in three centuries. 1800s, 1900s, and 2000s. Three centuries."

19th century. The 1800s.
20th century. The 1900s.
21st century. The 2000s.
One, Two, Three. Three centuries bicycles have been a part of.

The other part of my quote is:

"And really its only been about 150 years since bicycles were invented. One and a half centuries."

Guessing bicycles came about in the late 1800s or so. High wheeler bikes. So from lets say 1870 to 2022, that is about 150 years. Give or take a few years one way or the other.

Seems pretty simple what I wrote. But then there is Tommy.

>
> Real steel that really showed the value of itself was Reynolds 531 and Columbus SL. Then Reynolds developed 853 and Oria made whatever the hell they call their stuff. I had a Basso Loto made out of that Oria and it was just about the perfect material. American tubing may be better and when it is welded instead of lugged and soldered it is nearly the same weight at a titanium frame which they have to build pretty heavy because of the difference in strength.

On Saturday, April 2, 2022 at 2:33:01 AM UTC-4, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Friday, April 1, 2022 at 8:21:06 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:

> > So according to Russell, Chrome Moly Steel which is a product of the 1900's is 3 centuries old.

> Not sure what you are yipping and yapping about here Tommy.

Yeah, I saw that and just passed it off as yet another example of tommys bizarre reading comprehension.

On Friday, April 1, 2022 at 9:43:43 PM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
>
> Comparisons to titanium are complex and conclusions are not
> easily drawn. You're on your own with that. Let's just say
> steel and titanium are different.

On that note, it really all comes down to the competence of the frame builder.

I have two Tom Kellogg frames:
- 1991 Merlin Road, designed by Kellogg and built in their Somerville facility (titanium, obviously)
- 1985 Ross Signature built at the Ross facility in Pennsylvania.

I bought the ross as a beater from a local shop. It had been repainted with no decals so there was no ready way to identify it except that the seller "told" me that is was a Kellogg frame. I took it for a spin and knew immediately this bike was quality. I distinctly remember thinking 'cripes, this thing rides as nice as my Merlin'. If anything it's slightly stiffer. I'd say it ride better than my '84 Basso Gap. The welds and lugs were obviously very well done. Hey, even if it _wasn't_ a Kellogg, for $500 ready to go (sans wheels), why not?

I did some research on this frame after I got it, and got confirmation from Tom Kellogg that the bike was actually hand built by Kelloggs chief builder Jeff Duser.
https://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/f22/spectrum-cycles-16052-10.html#post289772
So the Merlin is 3/2.5 Ti and the Ross is Ishiwata 022. I still ride that Ross frame as a fixed gear - just last weekend in fact (it's still in the back of my car) - and I still think it rides as nice as my Merlin. It's all about the build.

On Friday, April 1, 2022 at 6:43:43 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>
> >
> A lot has changed (~30 years) since Oria tube.
>
> The biggest improvements are not merely trace alloying
> materials but rather cleanliness (reduced impurities) and
> much better uniformity both in material itself and finish
> dimensions/surface. Our modern steels are superior in every
> way from Oria or more dramatically from the Reynolds
> 531/Columbus Cyclex SL era.
>
> Comparisons to titanium are complex and conclusions are not
> easily drawn. You're on your own with that. Let's just say
> steel and titanium are different.

I have right next to me here a titanium frame that Lemond tried to build lighter than a good steel frame. Someone rode it a small collision of some sort and it literally shattered. Steel would have bent at worst and judging from the damage would probably have had no damage. The difference between my Basso Loto Columbus SL and the Oria was extreme, With exactly the same geometry they were completely different bikes. On the bottom of a local descent there is a sudden flattening of the descent and the SL would bounce so hard that it would make you think you were going to be thrown off. The Oria did none of that and you couldn't much feel that change in angle.

On 4/2/2022 10:14 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> I have right next to me here a titanium frame that Lemond tried to build lighter than a good steel frame. Someone rode it a small collision of some sort and it literally shattered.

Titanium shattered??

I'd love to see photos of that damage. Care to post them somewhere and
give us a link?

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 4/2/2022 7:26 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 4/2/2022 10:14 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>
>> I have right next to me here a titanium frame that Lemond
>> tried to build lighter than a good steel frame. Someone
>> rode it a small collision of some sort and it literally
>> shattered.
>
> Titanium shattered??
>
> I'd love to see photos of that damage. Care to post them
> somewhere and give us a link?
>

Failure mode depends on the type of titanium used, wall
thickness, tube quality, weld quality, design, fixture setup
and assembly rigor, and the nature and magnitude of the impact.

To be clear I've never seen 'shattered' to include a pile of
titanium chips in the lane. The dramatic ones are big almost
longitudinal cracks out from a welded joint.

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikeforums.net-vbulletin/907x1210/broken_gold_rush_frame_2_sm_47a09d26c67d4d883de3d20a7eca71160011c0b4.jpg

The more common Ti frame failures are cracks perpendicular
to the weld as we see with thin high-temper modern steel TIG
frames.

http://i.stack.imgur.com/eGqcB.jpg

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Sat, 2 Apr 2022 20:26:38 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 4/2/2022 10:14 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>
>> I have right next to me here a titanium frame that Lemond tried to build lighter than a good steel frame. Someone rode it a small collision of some sort and it literally shattered.
>
>Titanium shattered??
>
>I'd love to see photos of that damage. Care to post them somewhere and
>give us a link?

Ti3Al8V6Cr4Mo4Zr Grade 19 Titanium, often referred to as "Beta C" is
often used as: . springs, fasteners, torsion bars and as extruded
tubulars for deep sour well applications and is listed with the MR0175
approved alloys. The alloy is heat treatable to a wide range of
strengths.

Tensile Strength MPa - 1248 (181,007 PSI)
Elastic Modulus GPa - 103 (14,938,887 PSI)
https://www.azom.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=1843
Sure sounds like something that would just fall apart if you tipped
the bike over.

--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sat, 02 Apr 2022 20:01:20 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 4/2/2022 7:26 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 4/2/2022 10:14 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>
>>> I have right next to me here a titanium frame that Lemond
>>> tried to build lighter than a good steel frame. Someone
>>> rode it a small collision of some sort and it literally
>>> shattered.
>>
>> Titanium shattered??
>>
>> I'd love to see photos of that damage. Care to post them
>> somewhere and give us a link?
>>
>
>Failure mode depends on the type of titanium used, wall
>thickness, tube quality, weld quality, design, fixture setup
>and assembly rigor, and the nature and magnitude of the impact.
>
>To be clear I've never seen 'shattered' to include a pile of
>titanium chips in the lane. The dramatic ones are big almost
>longitudinal cracks out from a welded joint.
>
>https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikeforums.net-vbulletin/907x1210/broken_gold_rush_frame_2_sm_47a09d26c67d4d883de3d20a7eca71160011c0b4.jpg
>
>The more common Ti frame failures are cracks perpendicular
>to the weld as we see with thin high-temper modern steel TIG
>frames.
>
>http://i.stack.imgur.com/eGqcB.jpg

Out of curiosity do you see similar cracks, apparently originating in
the weld bead, in welded steel frame bicycles?

I once certified on Titanium and for that test welds were made in an
enclosed box flooded with an inert gas. A friend, who worked at a
aircraft depot later told me that they had made some welds in the open
air by "flooding" the weld region with an inert gas. (which made me
wonder about how, or what, the welder was breathing (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Fri, 01 Apr 2022 10:11:25 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 4/1/2022 8:03 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> "Starling Cycles founder, Joe McEwan, has released a 36-page document in which he pleads for consumers’ forgiveness for having profiteered from numerous fallacies over the course of his bicycle company’s seven year history of trading. No longer able to look himself in the mirror, Joe finally admits that steel is in fact, not real...."
>>
>> https://bikerumor.com/starling-cycles-confess-to-profiteering-from-steel-that-is-simply-not-real/

>I checked into that and it does not appear to be an April
>Fool's item.
>Pathetic.

36 pages and selling for £999 ($1,310.14):
<https://www.starlingcycles.com/product/starling-fallacy/>

Even the most expensive vanity press books don't cost anywhere near
that much to print. For example, $2,400 for 8 paperback books is
$300/book cost. That's $1,000/book profit if he sells all 8 books.
<https://www.xlibris.com/en/services/packages-and-services-us/publishing-packages/full-color-packages/full-color-custom>
<https://www.xlibris.com/en/services/packages-and-services-us/publishing-packages/full-color-packages>

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 4/2/2022 9:11 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Sat, 02 Apr 2022 20:01:20 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>> On 4/2/2022 7:26 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 4/2/2022 10:14 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I have right next to me here a titanium frame that Lemond
>>>> tried to build lighter than a good steel frame. Someone
>>>> rode it a small collision of some sort and it literally
>>>> shattered.
>>>
>>> Titanium shattered??
>>>
>>> I'd love to see photos of that damage. Care to post them
>>> somewhere and give us a link?
>>>
>>
>> Failure mode depends on the type of titanium used, wall
>> thickness, tube quality, weld quality, design, fixture setup
>> and assembly rigor, and the nature and magnitude of the impact.
>>
>> To be clear I've never seen 'shattered' to include a pile of
>> titanium chips in the lane. The dramatic ones are big almost
>> longitudinal cracks out from a welded joint.
>>
>> https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikeforums.net-vbulletin/907x1210/broken_gold_rush_frame_2_sm_47a09d26c67d4d883de3d20a7eca71160011c0b4.jpg
>>
>> The more common Ti frame failures are cracks perpendicular
>> to the weld as we see with thin high-temper modern steel TIG
>> frames.
>>
>> http://i.stack.imgur.com/eGqcB.jpg
>
> Out of curiosity do you see similar cracks, apparently originating in
> the weld bead, in welded steel frame bicycles?
>
> I once certified on Titanium and for that test welds were made in an
> enclosed box flooded with an inert gas. A friend, who worked at a
> aircraft depot later told me that they had made some welds in the open
> air by "flooding" the weld region with an inert gas. (which made me
> wonder about how, or what, the welder was breathing (:-)
>

Yes, I remember argon weld chambers for Ti but now the
standard technique is to flood the weld zone. I am not an
expert on the details, never done it myself.

Modern thin high-temper TIG steel frames crack out from the
weld as second image link above. Traditional brazed frame
cracks usually follow the joint, along it or parallel.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 4/2/2022 9:01 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 4/2/2022 7:26 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 4/2/2022 10:14 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>
>>> I have right next to me here a titanium frame that Lemond
>>> tried to build lighter than a good steel frame. Someone
>>> rode it a small collision of some sort and it literally
>>> shattered.
>>
>> Titanium shattered??
>>
>> I'd love to see photos of that damage. Care to post them
>> somewhere and give us a link?
>>
>
> Failure mode depends on the type of titanium used, wall thickness, tube
> quality, weld quality, design, fixture setup and assembly rigor, and the
> nature and magnitude of the impact.
>
> To be clear I've never seen 'shattered' to include a pile of titanium
> chips in the lane. The dramatic ones are big almost longitudinal cracks
> out from a welded joint.
>
> https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikeforums.net-vbulletin/907x1210/broken_gold_rush_frame_2_sm_47a09d26c67d4d883de3d20a7eca71160011c0b4.jpg

Interesting. Do you know much about how that failure occurred?

I'll admit that I don't know much about welding titanium. But those are
pretty massive welds behind the head tube, and to me the crack hints
that the head tube itself was in circumferential tension, with stresses
pulling towards the welds. It makes me wonder if some post-weld stress
relief heat treatment would be worthwhile.

This video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GFO4uss0VM makes no mention
of any heat treatment. But it also makes no mention of inert gas
shielding, which I'm sure they're using, so I wonder if it's just not
detailed enough. It looks like the frame tubes are plugged, so I suppose
argon or whatever is protecting the inside (back side) of the welds.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Saturday, April 2, 2022 at 6:01:24 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 4/2/2022 7:26 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 4/2/2022 10:14 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>
> >> I have right next to me here a titanium frame that Lemond
> >> tried to build lighter than a good steel frame. Someone
> >> rode it a small collision of some sort and it literally
> >> shattered.
> >
> > Titanium shattered??
> >
> > I'd love to see photos of that damage. Care to post them
> > somewhere and give us a link?
> >
> Failure mode depends on the type of titanium used, wall
> thickness, tube quality, weld quality, design, fixture setup
> and assembly rigor, and the nature and magnitude of the impact.
>
> To be clear I've never seen 'shattered' to include a pile of
> titanium chips in the lane. The dramatic ones are big almost
> longitudinal cracks out from a welded joint.
>
> https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikeforums.net-vbulletin/907x1210/broken_gold_rush_frame_2_sm_47a09d26c67d4d883de3d20a7eca71160011c0b4.jpg
>
> The more common Ti frame failures are cracks perpendicular
> to the weld as we see with thin high-temper modern steel TIG
> frames.
>
> http://i.stack.imgur.com/eGqcB.jpg

I absolutely agree with you. My point was that if you actually try to build a superlight titanium frame it will NOT be strong enough to perform well as a road bike.

On 4/3/2022 10:29 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 4/2/2022 9:01 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 4/2/2022 7:26 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 4/2/2022 10:14 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I have right next to me here a titanium frame that Lemond
>>>> tried to build lighter than a good steel frame. Someone
>>>> rode it a small collision of some sort and it literally
>>>> shattered.
>>>
>>> Titanium shattered??
>>>
>>> I'd love to see photos of that damage. Care to post them
>>> somewhere and give us a link?
>>>
>>
>> Failure mode depends on the type of titanium used, wall
>> thickness, tube quality, weld quality, design, fixture
>> setup and assembly rigor, and the nature and magnitude of
>> the impact.
>>
>> To be clear I've never seen 'shattered' to include a pile
>> of titanium chips in the lane. The dramatic ones are big
>> almost longitudinal cracks out from a welded joint.
>>
>> https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikeforums.net-vbulletin/907x1210/broken_gold_rush_frame_2_sm_47a09d26c67d4d883de3d20a7eca71160011c0b4.jpg
>
>
> Interesting. Do you know much about how that failure occurred?
>
> I'll admit that I don't know much about welding titanium.
> But those are pretty massive welds behind the head tube, and
> to me the crack hints that the head tube itself was in
> circumferential tension, with stresses pulling towards the
> welds. It makes me wonder if some post-weld stress relief
> heat treatment would be worthwhile.
>
> This video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GFO4uss0VM makes
> no mention of any heat treatment. But it also makes no
> mention of inert gas shielding, which I'm sure they're
> using, so I wonder if it's just not detailed enough. It
> looks like the frame tubes are plugged, so I suppose argon
> or whatever is protecting the inside (back side) of the welds.
>
>
>

I don't know the specifics, that's a web image I found
yesterday. But it's typical of the crack form & direction,
although I've seen more Ti cracks at the BB than anywhere else.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971