Without a doubt, the Shimano Di2 is the finest shifting group there is. It over shifts and then self corrects so that you get fast shifts and quiet running there is no other choice for pro riders. Not being familiar with the Campy EPS group I can only say that there are a LOT of EPS components for sale new and used. I hear good things about the SRAM E-tap group but have never personally tried it.

But a normal sports rider doesn't need the additional maintenance of an electronic group. The Campy Powershift Centaur group shifts slightly better than the SRAM group and the Campy Record Ultra Shift 11 speed is head and shoulders above the other manufacturers.

SRAM has limited the number of shifts you can make and Shimano can slip out from under your hand while you're shifting large numbers of gears at once. Not to say that both SRAM and Shimano aren't good groups but that they do have a weakness that Campy doesn't have in manual groups.

So there is very little choice in the manual shifting groups starting with the 11 speed groups. It is also nice that both Shimano SRAM and Campy 11 speed wheels are interchangeable. Shimano wheels and cassettes are so much easier and cheaper to get in high quality wheels that you have a very large choice and thereby cheaper high quality.

As for other components of the groups - I don't like that Hertz connection on the Campy Ultra Torque cranks but they are head and shoulders above the Shimano hollow aluminum cranks which I have broken a Dura Ace set or the SRAM with has silly different size bearings on the drive side than on the off-side. They are also a pain in the butt to get the preload correct. The FSA SLK carbon cranks are better than SRAM or Shimano in my opinion. One problem however is that the 30 mm axle gets in the way of the electronic wires if you're using an electronic group or the screw that holds on the under BB plastic wire guide if you're using manual shifting. It also makes it nearly impossible to use internal manual shift wiring though it is possible with great care.

I cannot tell any advantage with direct mount rim brakes other than it is easier to keep them from dragging. I simply do not like disk brakes after using them on half a dozen bikes. Campy Record standard mount rim brakes work very well and can be set up to operate properly without moving. The older Campy dual axle brakes worked very well. The Dura Ace brakes I've used move about somewhat and you have to readjust them once in awhile to keep your brake levers from pulling the wheel over to one side.

My experience with saddles is that padding makes them more comfortable for the first 10 miles or so and then progressively more painful. Hard carbon saddle seem to retain the same level of discomfort from beginning to end and is preferable for me.

Deep aero wheels are not good for sports riders. We don't ride at a high enough average to gain anything from them and they are dangerous in crosswinds. Just yesterday I was crossing a bridge in high gusty winds and nearly got shoved into the steel side bars of the bridge path. My CT Swiss and Bontrager wheels do not do that. Or at least not to that extent.

On Monday, April 11, 2022 at 4:09:50 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> Without a doubt, the Shimano Di2 is the finest shifting group there is. It over shifts and then self corrects so that you get fast shifts and quiet running there is no other choice for pro riders.

Actually, Tommy, Professional riders have three choices of bicycle components. Shimano, SRAM, and Campagnolo all make mechanical and electronic groupsets. All three brands are used in the professional peloton by teams. Despite what Shimano may wish, it is not "there is no other choice for pro riders." Despite your claims.

> Not being familiar with the Campy EPS group I can only say that there are a LOT of EPS components for sale new and used. I hear good things about the SRAM E-tap group but have never personally tried it.
>
> But a normal sports rider doesn't need the additional maintenance of an electronic group.

Funny. I have owned Shimano Di2 7970 groupset since 2010. I have almost never ever adjusted it since installing it 12 years ago. I think that is pretty good. Once every three years I charge the battery. Not because it ever runs out, but more as a precautionary thing.

> The Campy Powershift Centaur group shifts slightly better than the SRAM group and the Campy Record Ultra Shift 11 speed is head and shoulders above the other manufacturers.
>
> SRAM has limited the number of shifts you can make and Shimano can slip out from under your hand while you're shifting large numbers of gears at once. Not to say that both SRAM and Shimano aren't good groups but that they do have a weakness that Campy doesn't have in manual groups.
>
> So there is very little choice in the manual shifting groups starting with the 11 speed groups.

There are three choices amongst the groups. SRAM, Shimano, Campagnolo. That seems like enough choices to me. It is less choice than picking out a woman based on hair color. Black, brown, blonde, red hair color choices. But 3 or 4 choices is pretty close, so I would call them about the same.

> It is also nice that both Shimano SRAM and Campy 11 speed wheels are interchangeable. Shimano wheels and cassettes are so much easier and cheaper to get in high quality wheels that you have a very large choice and thereby cheaper high quality.
>
> As for other components of the groups - I don't like that Hertz connection on the Campy Ultra Torque cranks but they are head and shoulders above the Shimano hollow aluminum cranks which I have broken a Dura Ace set or the SRAM with has silly different size bearings on the drive side than on the off-side. They are also a pain in the butt to get the preload correct. The FSA SLK carbon cranks are better than SRAM or Shimano in my opinion. One problem however is that the 30 mm axle gets in the way of the electronic wires if you're using an electronic group or the screw that holds on the under BB plastic wire guide if you're using manual shifting. It also makes it nearly impossible to use internal manual shift wiring though it is possible with great care.
>
> I cannot tell any advantage with direct mount rim brakes other than it is easier to keep them from dragging. I simply do not like disk brakes after using them on half a dozen bikes. Campy Record standard mount rim brakes work very well and can be set up to operate properly without moving. The older Campy dual axle brakes worked very well. The Dura Ace brakes I've used move about somewhat and you have to readjust them once in awhile to keep your brake levers from pulling the wheel over to one side.
>
> My experience with saddles is that padding makes them more comfortable for the first 10 miles or so and then progressively more painful. Hard carbon saddle seem to retain the same level of discomfort from beginning to end and is preferable for me.

I am very happy to say I have ZERO discomfort amongst all the saddles on my bikes. It is mystifying to me that someone would choose to ride a bike with saddle discomfort. But that is Tommy I guess.

>
> Deep aero wheels are not good for sports riders. We don't ride at a high enough average to gain anything from them and they are dangerous in crosswinds. Just yesterday I was crossing a bridge in high gusty winds and nearly got shoved into the steel side bars of the bridge path. My CT Swiss and Bontrager wheels do not do that. Or at least not to that extent.

On Mon, 11 Apr 2022 20:41:36 -0700 (PDT), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
<ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Monday, April 11, 2022 at 4:09:50 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>> Without a doubt, the Shimano Di2 is the finest shifting group there is. It over shifts and then self corrects so that you get fast shifts and quiet running there is no other choice for pro riders.
>
>Actually, Tommy, Professional riders have three choices of bicycle components. Shimano, SRAM, and Campagnolo all make mechanical and electronic groupsets. All three brands are used in the professional peloton by teams. Despite what Shimano may wish, it is not "there is no other choice for pro riders." Despite your claims.
>
>
>
>
>> Not being familiar with the Campy EPS group I can only say that there are a LOT of EPS components for sale new and used. I hear good things about the SRAM E-tap group but have never personally tried it.
>>
>> But a normal sports rider doesn't need the additional maintenance of an electronic group.
>
>Funny. I have owned Shimano Di2 7970 groupset since 2010. I have almost never ever adjusted it since installing it 12 years ago. I think that is pretty good. Once every three years I charge the battery. Not because it ever runs out, but more as a precautionary thing.
>

Not to get involved in your "affair" with Tommy, but I've got a bike
with friction down tube shifters. Had it for about 15 years and never.
not even once, had to tinker with the shifting (:-)

--
Cheers,

John B.

On Monday, April 11, 2022 at 11:20:29 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> On Mon, 11 Apr 2022 20:41:36 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Monday, April 11, 2022 at 4:09:50 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> Without a doubt, the Shimano Di2 is the finest shifting group there is.. It over shifts and then self corrects so that you get fast shifts and quiet running there is no other choice for pro riders.
> >
> >Actually, Tommy, Professional riders have three choices of bicycle components. Shimano, SRAM, and Campagnolo all make mechanical and electronic groupsets. All three brands are used in the professional peloton by teams. Despite what Shimano may wish, it is not "there is no other choice for pro riders." Despite your claims.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> Not being familiar with the Campy EPS group I can only say that there are a LOT of EPS components for sale new and used. I hear good things about the SRAM E-tap group but have never personally tried it.
> >>
> >> But a normal sports rider doesn't need the additional maintenance of an electronic group.
> >
> >Funny. I have owned Shimano Di2 7970 groupset since 2010. I have almost never ever adjusted it since installing it 12 years ago. I think that is pretty good. Once every three years I charge the battery. Not because it ever runs out, but more as a precautionary thing.
> >
> Not to get involved in your "affair" with Tommy, but I've got a bike
> with friction down tube shifters. Had it for about 15 years and never.
> not even once, had to tinker with the shifting (:-)
>
> --
> Cheers,
>
> John B.

You could have tinkered with it if you did not get the limit screws for the rear derailleur exactly right. Chain went too far or not far enough onto the last sprocket. Inner or outer last sprocket.

On Mon, 11 Apr 2022 21:52:13 -0700 (PDT), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
<ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Monday, April 11, 2022 at 11:20:29 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>> On Mon, 11 Apr 2022 20:41:36 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Monday, April 11, 2022 at 4:09:50 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>> >> Without a doubt, the Shimano Di2 is the finest shifting group there is. It over shifts and then self corrects so that you get fast shifts and quiet running there is no other choice for pro riders.
>> >
>> >Actually, Tommy, Professional riders have three choices of bicycle components. Shimano, SRAM, and Campagnolo all make mechanical and electronic groupsets. All three brands are used in the professional peloton by teams. Despite what Shimano may wish, it is not "there is no other choice for pro riders." Despite your claims.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >> Not being familiar with the Campy EPS group I can only say that there are a LOT of EPS components for sale new and used. I hear good things about the SRAM E-tap group but have never personally tried it.
>> >>
>> >> But a normal sports rider doesn't need the additional maintenance of an electronic group.
>> >
>> >Funny. I have owned Shimano Di2 7970 groupset since 2010. I have almost never ever adjusted it since installing it 12 years ago. I think that is pretty good. Once every three years I charge the battery. Not because it ever runs out, but more as a precautionary thing.
>> >
>> Not to get involved in your "affair" with Tommy, but I've got a bike
>> with friction down tube shifters. Had it for about 15 years and never.
>> not even once, had to tinker with the shifting (:-)
>>
>> --
>> Cheers,
>>
>> John B.
>
>You could have tinkered with it if you did not get the limit screws for the rear derailleur exactly right. Chain went too far or not far enough onto the last sprocket. Inner or outer last sprocket.

Sure, I could have. But I didn't (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 4/11/2022 10:41 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Monday, April 11, 2022 at 4:09:50 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>> Without a doubt, the Shimano Di2 is the finest shifting group there is. It over shifts and then self corrects so that you get fast shifts and quiet running there is no other choice for pro riders.
>
> Actually, Tommy, Professional riders have three choices of bicycle components. Shimano, SRAM, and Campagnolo all make mechanical and electronic groupsets. All three brands are used in the professional peloton by teams. Despite what Shimano may wish, it is not "there is no other choice for pro riders." Despite your claims.
>
>
>
>
>> Not being familiar with the Campy EPS group I can only say that there are a LOT of EPS components for sale new and used. I hear good things about the SRAM E-tap group but have never personally tried it.
>>
>> But a normal sports rider doesn't need the additional maintenance of an electronic group.
>
> Funny. I have owned Shimano Di2 7970 groupset since 2010. I have almost never ever adjusted it since installing it 12 years ago. I think that is pretty good. Once every three years I charge the battery. Not because it ever runs out, but more as a precautionary thing.
>
>
>
>
>
>> The Campy Powershift Centaur group shifts slightly better than the SRAM group and the Campy Record Ultra Shift 11 speed is head and shoulders above the other manufacturers.
>>
>> SRAM has limited the number of shifts you can make and Shimano can slip out from under your hand while you're shifting large numbers of gears at once. Not to say that both SRAM and Shimano aren't good groups but that they do have a weakness that Campy doesn't have in manual groups.
>>
>> So there is very little choice in the manual shifting groups starting with the 11 speed groups.
>
> There are three choices amongst the groups. SRAM, Shimano, Campagnolo. That seems like enough choices to me. It is less choice than picking out a woman based on hair color. Black, brown, blonde, red hair color choices. But 3 or 4 choices is pretty close, so I would call them about the same.
>
>
>
>
>
>> It is also nice that both Shimano SRAM and Campy 11 speed wheels are interchangeable. Shimano wheels and cassettes are so much easier and cheaper to get in high quality wheels that you have a very large choice and thereby cheaper high quality.
>>
>> As for other components of the groups - I don't like that Hertz connection on the Campy Ultra Torque cranks but they are head and shoulders above the Shimano hollow aluminum cranks which I have broken a Dura Ace set or the SRAM with has silly different size bearings on the drive side than on the off-side. They are also a pain in the butt to get the preload correct. The FSA SLK carbon cranks are better than SRAM or Shimano in my opinion. One problem however is that the 30 mm axle gets in the way of the electronic wires if you're using an electronic group or the screw that holds on the under BB plastic wire guide if you're using manual shifting. It also makes it nearly impossible to use internal manual shift wiring though it is possible with great care.
>>
>> I cannot tell any advantage with direct mount rim brakes other than it is easier to keep them from dragging. I simply do not like disk brakes after using them on half a dozen bikes. Campy Record standard mount rim brakes work very well and can be set up to operate properly without moving. The older Campy dual axle brakes worked very well. The Dura Ace brakes I've used move about somewhat and you have to readjust them once in awhile to keep your brake levers from pulling the wheel over to one side.
>>
>> My experience with saddles is that padding makes them more comfortable for the first 10 miles or so and then progressively more painful. Hard carbon saddle seem to retain the same level of discomfort from beginning to end and is preferable for me.
>
> I am very happy to say I have ZERO discomfort amongst all the saddles on my bikes. It is mystifying to me that someone would choose to ride a bike with saddle discomfort. But that is Tommy I guess.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>
>> Deep aero wheels are not good for sports riders. We don't ride at a high enough average to gain anything from them and they are dangerous in crosswinds. Just yesterday I was crossing a bridge in high gusty winds and nearly got shoved into the steel side bars of the bridge path. My CT Swiss and Bontrager wheels do not do that. Or at least not to that extent.

Celebrate diversity!
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/30/46/82/3046823e11ec3ddc9bac5bfe7c25a797.jpg

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Tuesday, April 12, 2022 at 5:48:18 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 4/11/2022 10:41 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > On Monday, April 11, 2022 at 4:09:50 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> Without a doubt, the Shimano Di2 is the finest shifting group there is.. It over shifts and then self corrects so that you get fast shifts and quiet running there is no other choice for pro riders.
> >
> > Actually, Tommy, Professional riders have three choices of bicycle components. Shimano, SRAM, and Campagnolo all make mechanical and electronic groupsets. All three brands are used in the professional peloton by teams. Despite what Shimano may wish, it is not "there is no other choice for pro riders." Despite your claims.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> Not being familiar with the Campy EPS group I can only say that there are a LOT of EPS components for sale new and used. I hear good things about the SRAM E-tap group but have never personally tried it.
> >>
> >> But a normal sports rider doesn't need the additional maintenance of an electronic group.
> >
> > Funny. I have owned Shimano Di2 7970 groupset since 2010. I have almost never ever adjusted it since installing it 12 years ago. I think that is pretty good. Once every three years I charge the battery. Not because it ever runs out, but more as a precautionary thing.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> The Campy Powershift Centaur group shifts slightly better than the SRAM group and the Campy Record Ultra Shift 11 speed is head and shoulders above the other manufacturers.
> >>
> >> SRAM has limited the number of shifts you can make and Shimano can slip out from under your hand while you're shifting large numbers of gears at once. Not to say that both SRAM and Shimano aren't good groups but that they do have a weakness that Campy doesn't have in manual groups.
> >>
> >> So there is very little choice in the manual shifting groups starting with the 11 speed groups.
> >
> > There are three choices amongst the groups. SRAM, Shimano, Campagnolo. That seems like enough choices to me. It is less choice than picking out a woman based on hair color. Black, brown, blonde, red hair color choices. But 3 or 4 choices is pretty close, so I would call them about the same.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> It is also nice that both Shimano SRAM and Campy 11 speed wheels are interchangeable. Shimano wheels and cassettes are so much easier and cheaper to get in high quality wheels that you have a very large choice and thereby cheaper high quality.
> >>
> >> As for other components of the groups - I don't like that Hertz connection on the Campy Ultra Torque cranks but they are head and shoulders above the Shimano hollow aluminum cranks which I have broken a Dura Ace set or the SRAM with has silly different size bearings on the drive side than on the off-side. They are also a pain in the butt to get the preload correct. The FSA SLK carbon cranks are better than SRAM or Shimano in my opinion. One problem however is that the 30 mm axle gets in the way of the electronic wires if you're using an electronic group or the screw that holds on the under BB plastic wire guide if you're using manual shifting. It also makes it nearly impossible to use internal manual shift wiring though it is possible with great care.
> >>
> >> I cannot tell any advantage with direct mount rim brakes other than it is easier to keep them from dragging. I simply do not like disk brakes after using them on half a dozen bikes. Campy Record standard mount rim brakes work very well and can be set up to operate properly without moving. The older Campy dual axle brakes worked very well. The Dura Ace brakes I've used move about somewhat and you have to readjust them once in awhile to keep your brake levers from pulling the wheel over to one side.
> >>
> >> My experience with saddles is that padding makes them more comfortable for the first 10 miles or so and then progressively more painful. Hard carbon saddle seem to retain the same level of discomfort from beginning to end and is preferable for me.
> >
> > I am very happy to say I have ZERO discomfort amongst all the saddles on my bikes. It is mystifying to me that someone would choose to ride a bike with saddle discomfort. But that is Tommy I guess.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>
> >> Deep aero wheels are not good for sports riders. We don't ride at a high enough average to gain anything from them and they are dangerous in crosswinds. Just yesterday I was crossing a bridge in high gusty winds and nearly got shoved into the steel side bars of the bridge path. My CT Swiss and Bontrager wheels do not do that. Or at least not to that extent.
> Celebrate diversity!
> https://i.pinimg.com/originals/30/46/82/3046823e11ec3ddc9bac5bfe7c25a797.jpg

One of the diversities appears to be that Russell doesn't ride a bike. He can't understand English, and aside from the fact that he has to force himself to misunderstand my postings so that he can criticize what I say, he continues to make an almost unbelievable ass out of himself. Imagine someone who has never used electronic groups telling someone all about them?

On 4/11/2022 8:41 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Monday, April 11, 2022 at 4:09:50 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>> Without a doubt, the Shimano Di2 is the finest shifting group there is. It over shifts and then self corrects so that you get fast shifts and quiet running there is no other choice for pro riders.
>
> Actually, Tommy, Professional riders have three choices of bicycle components. Shimano, SRAM, and Campagnolo all make mechanical and electronic groupsets. All three brands are used in the professional peloton by teams. Despite what Shimano may wish, it is not "there is no other choice for pro riders." Despite your claims.

SRAM eTap AXS has become popular among professional riders because it
was first with wireless and first with 12 speed cassettes, though
Shimano eventually caught up with SRAM and now offers both.

On Tuesday, April 12, 2022 at 9:03:45 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, April 12, 2022 at 5:48:18 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > On 4/11/2022 10:41 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > On Monday, April 11, 2022 at 4:09:50 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >> Without a doubt, the Shimano Di2 is the finest shifting group there is. It over shifts and then self corrects so that you get fast shifts and quiet running there is no other choice for pro riders.
> > >
> > > Actually, Tommy, Professional riders have three choices of bicycle components. Shimano, SRAM, and Campagnolo all make mechanical and electronic groupsets. All three brands are used in the professional peloton by teams. Despite what Shimano may wish, it is not "there is no other choice for pro riders." Despite your claims.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >> Not being familiar with the Campy EPS group I can only say that there are a LOT of EPS components for sale new and used. I hear good things about the SRAM E-tap group but have never personally tried it.
> > >>
> > >> But a normal sports rider doesn't need the additional maintenance of an electronic group.
> > >
> > > Funny. I have owned Shimano Di2 7970 groupset since 2010. I have almost never ever adjusted it since installing it 12 years ago. I think that is pretty good. Once every three years I charge the battery. Not because it ever runs out, but more as a precautionary thing.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >> The Campy Powershift Centaur group shifts slightly better than the SRAM group and the Campy Record Ultra Shift 11 speed is head and shoulders above the other manufacturers.
> > >>
> > >> SRAM has limited the number of shifts you can make and Shimano can slip out from under your hand while you're shifting large numbers of gears at once. Not to say that both SRAM and Shimano aren't good groups but that they do have a weakness that Campy doesn't have in manual groups.
> > >>
> > >> So there is very little choice in the manual shifting groups starting with the 11 speed groups.
> > >
> > > There are three choices amongst the groups. SRAM, Shimano, Campagnolo.. That seems like enough choices to me. It is less choice than picking out a woman based on hair color. Black, brown, blonde, red hair color choices. But 3 or 4 choices is pretty close, so I would call them about the same.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >> It is also nice that both Shimano SRAM and Campy 11 speed wheels are interchangeable. Shimano wheels and cassettes are so much easier and cheaper to get in high quality wheels that you have a very large choice and thereby cheaper high quality.
> > >>
> > >> As for other components of the groups - I don't like that Hertz connection on the Campy Ultra Torque cranks but they are head and shoulders above the Shimano hollow aluminum cranks which I have broken a Dura Ace set or the SRAM with has silly different size bearings on the drive side than on the off-side. They are also a pain in the butt to get the preload correct. The FSA SLK carbon cranks are better than SRAM or Shimano in my opinion. One problem however is that the 30 mm axle gets in the way of the electronic wires if you're using an electronic group or the screw that holds on the under BB plastic wire guide if you're using manual shifting. It also makes it nearly impossible to use internal manual shift wiring though it is possible with great care.
> > >>
> > >> I cannot tell any advantage with direct mount rim brakes other than it is easier to keep them from dragging. I simply do not like disk brakes after using them on half a dozen bikes. Campy Record standard mount rim brakes work very well and can be set up to operate properly without moving. The older Campy dual axle brakes worked very well. The Dura Ace brakes I've used move about somewhat and you have to readjust them once in awhile to keep your brake levers from pulling the wheel over to one side.
> > >>
> > >> My experience with saddles is that padding makes them more comfortable for the first 10 miles or so and then progressively more painful. Hard carbon saddle seem to retain the same level of discomfort from beginning to end and is preferable for me.
> > >
> > > I am very happy to say I have ZERO discomfort amongst all the saddles on my bikes. It is mystifying to me that someone would choose to ride a bike with saddle discomfort. But that is Tommy I guess.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >>
> > >> Deep aero wheels are not good for sports riders. We don't ride at a high enough average to gain anything from them and they are dangerous in crosswinds. Just yesterday I was crossing a bridge in high gusty winds and nearly got shoved into the steel side bars of the bridge path. My CT Swiss and Bontrager wheels do not do that. Or at least not to that extent.
> > Celebrate diversity!
> > https://i.pinimg.com/originals/30/46/82/3046823e11ec3ddc9bac5bfe7c25a797.jpg
> One of the diversities appears to be that Russell doesn't ride a bike. He can't understand English, and aside from the fact that he has to force himself to misunderstand my postings so that he can criticize what I say, he continues to make an almost unbelievable ass out of himself.

Well, I suppose it is better to be an almost unbelievable ass, than you Tommy, who is a very believable ass.

> Imagine someone who has never used electronic groups telling someone all about them?

I own a carbon Ridley frame with Shimano Di2 7970 groupset. Bought the group back in spring 2010. When Di2 was first introduced. I find it very humorous reading about all the experts waxing and waning about Di2 when they have only been using it for a few years. And yipping and yapping about 11 or even 12 speed electronic components. Rookies. Little children. I've had Di2 since it originated. With 10 speed. I've used it twice as long as all the others. I was shifting Di2 when they were still suckling their momma's teats.

On Tuesday, April 12, 2022 at 10:41:48 PM UTC+2, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, April 12, 2022 at 9:03:45 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Tuesday, April 12, 2022 at 5:48:18 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > > On 4/11/2022 10:41 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > > On Monday, April 11, 2022 at 4:09:50 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > >> Without a doubt, the Shimano Di2 is the finest shifting group there is. It over shifts and then self corrects so that you get fast shifts and quiet running there is no other choice for pro riders.
> > > >
> > > > Actually, Tommy, Professional riders have three choices of bicycle components. Shimano, SRAM, and Campagnolo all make mechanical and electronic groupsets. All three brands are used in the professional peloton by teams.. Despite what Shimano may wish, it is not "there is no other choice for pro riders." Despite your claims.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >> Not being familiar with the Campy EPS group I can only say that there are a LOT of EPS components for sale new and used. I hear good things about the SRAM E-tap group but have never personally tried it.
> > > >>
> > > >> But a normal sports rider doesn't need the additional maintenance of an electronic group.
> > > >
> > > > Funny. I have owned Shimano Di2 7970 groupset since 2010. I have almost never ever adjusted it since installing it 12 years ago. I think that is pretty good. Once every three years I charge the battery. Not because it ever runs out, but more as a precautionary thing.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >> The Campy Powershift Centaur group shifts slightly better than the SRAM group and the Campy Record Ultra Shift 11 speed is head and shoulders above the other manufacturers.
> > > >>
> > > >> SRAM has limited the number of shifts you can make and Shimano can slip out from under your hand while you're shifting large numbers of gears at once. Not to say that both SRAM and Shimano aren't good groups but that they do have a weakness that Campy doesn't have in manual groups.
> > > >>
> > > >> So there is very little choice in the manual shifting groups starting with the 11 speed groups.
> > > >
> > > > There are three choices amongst the groups. SRAM, Shimano, Campagnolo. That seems like enough choices to me. It is less choice than picking out a woman based on hair color. Black, brown, blonde, red hair color choices.. But 3 or 4 choices is pretty close, so I would call them about the same.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >> It is also nice that both Shimano SRAM and Campy 11 speed wheels are interchangeable. Shimano wheels and cassettes are so much easier and cheaper to get in high quality wheels that you have a very large choice and thereby cheaper high quality.
> > > >>
> > > >> As for other components of the groups - I don't like that Hertz connection on the Campy Ultra Torque cranks but they are head and shoulders above the Shimano hollow aluminum cranks which I have broken a Dura Ace set or the SRAM with has silly different size bearings on the drive side than on the off-side. They are also a pain in the butt to get the preload correct.. The FSA SLK carbon cranks are better than SRAM or Shimano in my opinion. One problem however is that the 30 mm axle gets in the way of the electronic wires if you're using an electronic group or the screw that holds on the under BB plastic wire guide if you're using manual shifting. It also makes it nearly impossible to use internal manual shift wiring though it is possible with great care.
> > > >>
> > > >> I cannot tell any advantage with direct mount rim brakes other than it is easier to keep them from dragging. I simply do not like disk brakes after using them on half a dozen bikes. Campy Record standard mount rim brakes work very well and can be set up to operate properly without moving. The older Campy dual axle brakes worked very well. The Dura Ace brakes I've used move about somewhat and you have to readjust them once in awhile to keep your brake levers from pulling the wheel over to one side.
> > > >>
> > > >> My experience with saddles is that padding makes them more comfortable for the first 10 miles or so and then progressively more painful. Hard carbon saddle seem to retain the same level of discomfort from beginning to end and is preferable for me.
> > > >
> > > > I am very happy to say I have ZERO discomfort amongst all the saddles on my bikes. It is mystifying to me that someone would choose to ride a bike with saddle discomfort. But that is Tommy I guess.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >>
> > > >> Deep aero wheels are not good for sports riders. We don't ride at a high enough average to gain anything from them and they are dangerous in crosswinds. Just yesterday I was crossing a bridge in high gusty winds and nearly got shoved into the steel side bars of the bridge path. My CT Swiss and Bontrager wheels do not do that. Or at least not to that extent.
> > > Celebrate diversity!
> > > https://i.pinimg.com/originals/30/46/82/3046823e11ec3ddc9bac5bfe7c25a797.jpg
> > One of the diversities appears to be that Russell doesn't ride a bike. He can't understand English, and aside from the fact that he has to force himself to misunderstand my postings so that he can criticize what I say, he continues to make an almost unbelievable ass out of himself.
> Well, I suppose it is better to be an almost unbelievable ass, than you Tommy, who is a very believable ass.
> > Imagine someone who has never used electronic groups telling someone all about them?
> I own a carbon Ridley frame with Shimano Di2 7970 groupset. Bought the group back in spring 2010. When Di2 was first introduced. I find it very humorous reading about all the experts waxing and waning about Di2 when they have only been using it for a few years. And yipping and yapping about 11 or even 12 speed electronic components. Rookies. Little children. I've had Di2 since it originated. With 10 speed. I've used it twice as long as all the others. I was shifting Di2 when they were still suckling their momma's teats.

Well if you have to charge the battery every three years then you don't ride much on that bike. ;-)

Lou

On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 5:08:23 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Tuesday, April 12, 2022 at 10:41:48 PM UTC+2, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > On Tuesday, April 12, 2022 at 9:03:45 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, April 12, 2022 at 5:48:18 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > > > On 4/11/2022 10:41 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > > > On Monday, April 11, 2022 at 4:09:50 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > >> Without a doubt, the Shimano Di2 is the finest shifting group there is. It over shifts and then self corrects so that you get fast shifts and quiet running there is no other choice for pro riders.
> > > > >
> > > > > Actually, Tommy, Professional riders have three choices of bicycle components. Shimano, SRAM, and Campagnolo all make mechanical and electronic groupsets. All three brands are used in the professional peloton by teams. Despite what Shimano may wish, it is not "there is no other choice for pro riders." Despite your claims.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >> Not being familiar with the Campy EPS group I can only say that there are a LOT of EPS components for sale new and used. I hear good things about the SRAM E-tap group but have never personally tried it.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> But a normal sports rider doesn't need the additional maintenance of an electronic group.
> > > > >
> > > > > Funny. I have owned Shimano Di2 7970 groupset since 2010. I have almost never ever adjusted it since installing it 12 years ago. I think that is pretty good. Once every three years I charge the battery. Not because it ever runs out, but more as a precautionary thing.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >> The Campy Powershift Centaur group shifts slightly better than the SRAM group and the Campy Record Ultra Shift 11 speed is head and shoulders above the other manufacturers.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> SRAM has limited the number of shifts you can make and Shimano can slip out from under your hand while you're shifting large numbers of gears at once. Not to say that both SRAM and Shimano aren't good groups but that they do have a weakness that Campy doesn't have in manual groups.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> So there is very little choice in the manual shifting groups starting with the 11 speed groups.
> > > > >
> > > > > There are three choices amongst the groups. SRAM, Shimano, Campagnolo. That seems like enough choices to me. It is less choice than picking out a woman based on hair color. Black, brown, blonde, red hair color choices. But 3 or 4 choices is pretty close, so I would call them about the same..
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >> It is also nice that both Shimano SRAM and Campy 11 speed wheels are interchangeable. Shimano wheels and cassettes are so much easier and cheaper to get in high quality wheels that you have a very large choice and thereby cheaper high quality.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> As for other components of the groups - I don't like that Hertz connection on the Campy Ultra Torque cranks but they are head and shoulders above the Shimano hollow aluminum cranks which I have broken a Dura Ace set or the SRAM with has silly different size bearings on the drive side than on the off-side. They are also a pain in the butt to get the preload correct. The FSA SLK carbon cranks are better than SRAM or Shimano in my opinion.. One problem however is that the 30 mm axle gets in the way of the electronic wires if you're using an electronic group or the screw that holds on the under BB plastic wire guide if you're using manual shifting. It also makes it nearly impossible to use internal manual shift wiring though it is possible with great care.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> I cannot tell any advantage with direct mount rim brakes other than it is easier to keep them from dragging. I simply do not like disk brakes after using them on half a dozen bikes. Campy Record standard mount rim brakes work very well and can be set up to operate properly without moving. The older Campy dual axle brakes worked very well. The Dura Ace brakes I've used move about somewhat and you have to readjust them once in awhile to keep your brake levers from pulling the wheel over to one side.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> My experience with saddles is that padding makes them more comfortable for the first 10 miles or so and then progressively more painful. Hard carbon saddle seem to retain the same level of discomfort from beginning to end and is preferable for me.
> > > > >
> > > > > I am very happy to say I have ZERO discomfort amongst all the saddles on my bikes. It is mystifying to me that someone would choose to ride a bike with saddle discomfort. But that is Tommy I guess.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Deep aero wheels are not good for sports riders. We don't ride at a high enough average to gain anything from them and they are dangerous in crosswinds. Just yesterday I was crossing a bridge in high gusty winds and nearly got shoved into the steel side bars of the bridge path. My CT Swiss and Bontrager wheels do not do that. Or at least not to that extent.
> > > > Celebrate diversity!
> > > > https://i.pinimg.com/originals/30/46/82/3046823e11ec3ddc9bac5bfe7c25a797.jpg
> > > One of the diversities appears to be that Russell doesn't ride a bike.. He can't understand English, and aside from the fact that he has to force himself to misunderstand my postings so that he can criticize what I say, he continues to make an almost unbelievable ass out of himself.
> > Well, I suppose it is better to be an almost unbelievable ass, than you Tommy, who is a very believable ass.
> > > Imagine someone who has never used electronic groups telling someone all about them?
> > I own a carbon Ridley frame with Shimano Di2 7970 groupset. Bought the group back in spring 2010. When Di2 was first introduced. I find it very humorous reading about all the experts waxing and waning about Di2 when they have only been using it for a few years. And yipping and yapping about 11 or even 12 speed electronic components. Rookies. Little children. I've had Di2 since it originated. With 10 speed. I've used it twice as long as all the others. I was shifting Di2 when they were still suckling their momma's teats.
> Well if you have to charge the battery every three years then you don't ride much on that bike. ;-)

The wind and temperature were such that I just didn't feel like riding so I spent the entire day cleaning the back yard. Filled a 4 foot high waste bin with cuttings and tree litter so I have to wait until after Thursday's pickup to continue. I also have to get some spray on plant killer to kill everything on the street verge. But I had my credit card burgled and have to wait for a new one which isn't due until Friday. And I've now blown all of my cash on things like shipping the bicycle of the friend I lost back to his family who apparently are all cyclists.

On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 7:08:23 AM UTC-5, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, April 12, 2022 at 10:41:48 PM UTC+2, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > On Tuesday, April 12, 2022 at 9:03:45 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, April 12, 2022 at 5:48:18 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > > > On 4/11/2022 10:41 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > > > On Monday, April 11, 2022 at 4:09:50 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > >> Without a doubt, the Shimano Di2 is the finest shifting group there is. It over shifts and then self corrects so that you get fast shifts and quiet running there is no other choice for pro riders.
> > > > >
> > > > > Actually, Tommy, Professional riders have three choices of bicycle components. Shimano, SRAM, and Campagnolo all make mechanical and electronic groupsets. All three brands are used in the professional peloton by teams. Despite what Shimano may wish, it is not "there is no other choice for pro riders." Despite your claims.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >> Not being familiar with the Campy EPS group I can only say that there are a LOT of EPS components for sale new and used. I hear good things about the SRAM E-tap group but have never personally tried it.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> But a normal sports rider doesn't need the additional maintenance of an electronic group.
> > > > >
> > > > > Funny. I have owned Shimano Di2 7970 groupset since 2010. I have almost never ever adjusted it since installing it 12 years ago. I think that is pretty good. Once every three years I charge the battery. Not because it ever runs out, but more as a precautionary thing.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >> The Campy Powershift Centaur group shifts slightly better than the SRAM group and the Campy Record Ultra Shift 11 speed is head and shoulders above the other manufacturers.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> SRAM has limited the number of shifts you can make and Shimano can slip out from under your hand while you're shifting large numbers of gears at once. Not to say that both SRAM and Shimano aren't good groups but that they do have a weakness that Campy doesn't have in manual groups.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> So there is very little choice in the manual shifting groups starting with the 11 speed groups.
> > > > >
> > > > > There are three choices amongst the groups. SRAM, Shimano, Campagnolo. That seems like enough choices to me. It is less choice than picking out a woman based on hair color. Black, brown, blonde, red hair color choices. But 3 or 4 choices is pretty close, so I would call them about the same..
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >> It is also nice that both Shimano SRAM and Campy 11 speed wheels are interchangeable. Shimano wheels and cassettes are so much easier and cheaper to get in high quality wheels that you have a very large choice and thereby cheaper high quality.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> As for other components of the groups - I don't like that Hertz connection on the Campy Ultra Torque cranks but they are head and shoulders above the Shimano hollow aluminum cranks which I have broken a Dura Ace set or the SRAM with has silly different size bearings on the drive side than on the off-side. They are also a pain in the butt to get the preload correct. The FSA SLK carbon cranks are better than SRAM or Shimano in my opinion.. One problem however is that the 30 mm axle gets in the way of the electronic wires if you're using an electronic group or the screw that holds on the under BB plastic wire guide if you're using manual shifting. It also makes it nearly impossible to use internal manual shift wiring though it is possible with great care.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> I cannot tell any advantage with direct mount rim brakes other than it is easier to keep them from dragging. I simply do not like disk brakes after using them on half a dozen bikes. Campy Record standard mount rim brakes work very well and can be set up to operate properly without moving. The older Campy dual axle brakes worked very well. The Dura Ace brakes I've used move about somewhat and you have to readjust them once in awhile to keep your brake levers from pulling the wheel over to one side.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> My experience with saddles is that padding makes them more comfortable for the first 10 miles or so and then progressively more painful. Hard carbon saddle seem to retain the same level of discomfort from beginning to end and is preferable for me.
> > > > >
> > > > > I am very happy to say I have ZERO discomfort amongst all the saddles on my bikes. It is mystifying to me that someone would choose to ride a bike with saddle discomfort. But that is Tommy I guess.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Deep aero wheels are not good for sports riders. We don't ride at a high enough average to gain anything from them and they are dangerous in crosswinds. Just yesterday I was crossing a bridge in high gusty winds and nearly got shoved into the steel side bars of the bridge path. My CT Swiss and Bontrager wheels do not do that. Or at least not to that extent.
> > > > Celebrate diversity!
> > > > https://i.pinimg.com/originals/30/46/82/3046823e11ec3ddc9bac5bfe7c25a797.jpg
> > > One of the diversities appears to be that Russell doesn't ride a bike.. He can't understand English, and aside from the fact that he has to force himself to misunderstand my postings so that he can criticize what I say, he continues to make an almost unbelievable ass out of himself.
> > Well, I suppose it is better to be an almost unbelievable ass, than you Tommy, who is a very believable ass.
> > > Imagine someone who has never used electronic groups telling someone all about them?
> > I own a carbon Ridley frame with Shimano Di2 7970 groupset. Bought the group back in spring 2010. When Di2 was first introduced. I find it very humorous reading about all the experts waxing and waning about Di2 when they have only been using it for a few years. And yipping and yapping about 11 or even 12 speed electronic components. Rookies. Little children. I've had Di2 since it originated. With 10 speed. I've used it twice as long as all the others. I was shifting Di2 when they were still suckling their momma's teats.
> Well if you have to charge the battery every three years then you don't ride much on that bike. ;-)
>
> Lou

OK. I will admit it does not get a lot of use. 1000-2000 miles of riding per year. And it is relatively flat where I live so not too much shifting even when riding. But my point of rarely charging the battery does contradict the number one screaming complaint of those against electronic/battery groupsets. And that is the battery will die frequently. The battery does not die. The battery lasts for a long, long time. Anyone with enough brain power to shift a bicycle, will not run out of battery power during a bicycle ride. Worrying about a Di2 battery dying is comparable to someone fretting and fussing about the battery on their Timex digital watch dying.

On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 10:45:23 PM UTC+2, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 7:08:23 AM UTC-5, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Tuesday, April 12, 2022 at 10:41:48 PM UTC+2, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, April 12, 2022 at 9:03:45 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, April 12, 2022 at 5:48:18 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > > > > On 4/11/2022 10:41 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > > > > On Monday, April 11, 2022 at 4:09:50 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > >> Without a doubt, the Shimano Di2 is the finest shifting group there is. It over shifts and then self corrects so that you get fast shifts and quiet running there is no other choice for pro riders.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Actually, Tommy, Professional riders have three choices of bicycle components. Shimano, SRAM, and Campagnolo all make mechanical and electronic groupsets. All three brands are used in the professional peloton by teams. Despite what Shimano may wish, it is not "there is no other choice for pro riders." Despite your claims.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >> Not being familiar with the Campy EPS group I can only say that there are a LOT of EPS components for sale new and used. I hear good things about the SRAM E-tap group but have never personally tried it.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> But a normal sports rider doesn't need the additional maintenance of an electronic group.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Funny. I have owned Shimano Di2 7970 groupset since 2010. I have almost never ever adjusted it since installing it 12 years ago. I think that is pretty good. Once every three years I charge the battery. Not because it ever runs out, but more as a precautionary thing.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >> The Campy Powershift Centaur group shifts slightly better than the SRAM group and the Campy Record Ultra Shift 11 speed is head and shoulders above the other manufacturers.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> SRAM has limited the number of shifts you can make and Shimano can slip out from under your hand while you're shifting large numbers of gears at once. Not to say that both SRAM and Shimano aren't good groups but that they do have a weakness that Campy doesn't have in manual groups.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> So there is very little choice in the manual shifting groups starting with the 11 speed groups.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > There are three choices amongst the groups. SRAM, Shimano, Campagnolo. That seems like enough choices to me. It is less choice than picking out a woman based on hair color. Black, brown, blonde, red hair color choices. But 3 or 4 choices is pretty close, so I would call them about the same.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >> It is also nice that both Shimano SRAM and Campy 11 speed wheels are interchangeable. Shimano wheels and cassettes are so much easier and cheaper to get in high quality wheels that you have a very large choice and thereby cheaper high quality.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> As for other components of the groups - I don't like that Hertz connection on the Campy Ultra Torque cranks but they are head and shoulders above the Shimano hollow aluminum cranks which I have broken a Dura Ace set or the SRAM with has silly different size bearings on the drive side than on the off-side. They are also a pain in the butt to get the preload correct. The FSA SLK carbon cranks are better than SRAM or Shimano in my opinion. One problem however is that the 30 mm axle gets in the way of the electronic wires if you're using an electronic group or the screw that holds on the under BB plastic wire guide if you're using manual shifting. It also makes it nearly impossible to use internal manual shift wiring though it is possible with great care.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> I cannot tell any advantage with direct mount rim brakes other than it is easier to keep them from dragging. I simply do not like disk brakes after using them on half a dozen bikes. Campy Record standard mount rim brakes work very well and can be set up to operate properly without moving. The older Campy dual axle brakes worked very well. The Dura Ace brakes I've used move about somewhat and you have to readjust them once in awhile to keep your brake levers from pulling the wheel over to one side.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> My experience with saddles is that padding makes them more comfortable for the first 10 miles or so and then progressively more painful. Hard carbon saddle seem to retain the same level of discomfort from beginning to end and is preferable for me.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I am very happy to say I have ZERO discomfort amongst all the saddles on my bikes. It is mystifying to me that someone would choose to ride a bike with saddle discomfort. But that is Tommy I guess.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Deep aero wheels are not good for sports riders. We don't ride at a high enough average to gain anything from them and they are dangerous in crosswinds. Just yesterday I was crossing a bridge in high gusty winds and nearly got shoved into the steel side bars of the bridge path. My CT Swiss and Bontrager wheels do not do that. Or at least not to that extent.
> > > > > Celebrate diversity!
> > > > > https://i.pinimg.com/originals/30/46/82/3046823e11ec3ddc9bac5bfe7c25a797.jpg
> > > > One of the diversities appears to be that Russell doesn't ride a bike. He can't understand English, and aside from the fact that he has to force himself to misunderstand my postings so that he can criticize what I say, he continues to make an almost unbelievable ass out of himself.
> > > Well, I suppose it is better to be an almost unbelievable ass, than you Tommy, who is a very believable ass.
> > > > Imagine someone who has never used electronic groups telling someone all about them?
> > > I own a carbon Ridley frame with Shimano Di2 7970 groupset. Bought the group back in spring 2010. When Di2 was first introduced. I find it very humorous reading about all the experts waxing and waning about Di2 when they have only been using it for a few years. And yipping and yapping about 11 or even 12 speed electronic components. Rookies. Little children. I've had Di2 since it originated. With 10 speed. I've used it twice as long as all the others. I was shifting Di2 when they were still suckling their momma's teats.
> > Well if you have to charge the battery every three years then you don't ride much on that bike. ;-)
> >
> > Lou
> OK. I will admit it does not get a lot of use. 1000-2000 miles of riding per year. And it is relatively flat where I live so not too much shifting even when riding. But my point of rarely charging the battery does contradict the number one screaming complaint of those against electronic/battery groupsets. And that is the battery will die frequently. The battery does not die. The battery lasts for a long, long time. Anyone with enough brain power to shift a bicycle, will not run out of battery power during a bicycle ride. Worrying about a Di2 battery dying is comparable to someone fretting and fussing about the battery on their Timex digital watch dying.

You can have reasons not to choose Di2, but battery life can’t be one of them. I can only think of one reason and that is cost. This is based on my experience with three Di2 equiped bikes. The oldest and most abused Di2 equipped bike is 8 years old.

Lou

On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 1:59:42 PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 10:45:23 PM UTC+2, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 7:08:23 AM UTC-5, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, April 12, 2022 at 10:41:48 PM UTC+2, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, April 12, 2022 at 9:03:45 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > On Tuesday, April 12, 2022 at 5:48:18 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > > > > > On 4/11/2022 10:41 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > > > > > On Monday, April 11, 2022 at 4:09:50 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > >> Without a doubt, the Shimano Di2 is the finest shifting group there is. It over shifts and then self corrects so that you get fast shifts and quiet running there is no other choice for pro riders.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Actually, Tommy, Professional riders have three choices of bicycle components. Shimano, SRAM, and Campagnolo all make mechanical and electronic groupsets. All three brands are used in the professional peloton by teams. Despite what Shimano may wish, it is not "there is no other choice for pro riders." Despite your claims.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >> Not being familiar with the Campy EPS group I can only say that there are a LOT of EPS components for sale new and used. I hear good things about the SRAM E-tap group but have never personally tried it.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> But a normal sports rider doesn't need the additional maintenance of an electronic group.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Funny. I have owned Shimano Di2 7970 groupset since 2010. I have almost never ever adjusted it since installing it 12 years ago. I think that is pretty good. Once every three years I charge the battery. Not because it ever runs out, but more as a precautionary thing.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >> The Campy Powershift Centaur group shifts slightly better than the SRAM group and the Campy Record Ultra Shift 11 speed is head and shoulders above the other manufacturers.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> SRAM has limited the number of shifts you can make and Shimano can slip out from under your hand while you're shifting large numbers of gears at once. Not to say that both SRAM and Shimano aren't good groups but that they do have a weakness that Campy doesn't have in manual groups.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> So there is very little choice in the manual shifting groups starting with the 11 speed groups.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > There are three choices amongst the groups. SRAM, Shimano, Campagnolo. That seems like enough choices to me. It is less choice than picking out a woman based on hair color. Black, brown, blonde, red hair color choices. But 3 or 4 choices is pretty close, so I would call them about the same.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >> It is also nice that both Shimano SRAM and Campy 11 speed wheels are interchangeable. Shimano wheels and cassettes are so much easier and cheaper to get in high quality wheels that you have a very large choice and thereby cheaper high quality.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> As for other components of the groups - I don't like that Hertz connection on the Campy Ultra Torque cranks but they are head and shoulders above the Shimano hollow aluminum cranks which I have broken a Dura Ace set or the SRAM with has silly different size bearings on the drive side than on the off-side. They are also a pain in the butt to get the preload correct. The FSA SLK carbon cranks are better than SRAM or Shimano in my opinion. One problem however is that the 30 mm axle gets in the way of the electronic wires if you're using an electronic group or the screw that holds on the under BB plastic wire guide if you're using manual shifting. It also makes it nearly impossible to use internal manual shift wiring though it is possible with great care.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> I cannot tell any advantage with direct mount rim brakes other than it is easier to keep them from dragging. I simply do not like disk brakes after using them on half a dozen bikes. Campy Record standard mount rim brakes work very well and can be set up to operate properly without moving. The older Campy dual axle brakes worked very well. The Dura Ace brakes I've used move about somewhat and you have to readjust them once in awhile to keep your brake levers from pulling the wheel over to one side.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> My experience with saddles is that padding makes them more comfortable for the first 10 miles or so and then progressively more painful.. Hard carbon saddle seem to retain the same level of discomfort from beginning to end and is preferable for me.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I am very happy to say I have ZERO discomfort amongst all the saddles on my bikes. It is mystifying to me that someone would choose to ride a bike with saddle discomfort. But that is Tommy I guess.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Deep aero wheels are not good for sports riders. We don't ride at a high enough average to gain anything from them and they are dangerous in crosswinds. Just yesterday I was crossing a bridge in high gusty winds and nearly got shoved into the steel side bars of the bridge path. My CT Swiss and Bontrager wheels do not do that. Or at least not to that extent.
> > > > > > Celebrate diversity!
> > > > > > https://i.pinimg.com/originals/30/46/82/3046823e11ec3ddc9bac5bfe7c25a797.jpg
> > > > > One of the diversities appears to be that Russell doesn't ride a bike. He can't understand English, and aside from the fact that he has to force himself to misunderstand my postings so that he can criticize what I say, he continues to make an almost unbelievable ass out of himself.
> > > > Well, I suppose it is better to be an almost unbelievable ass, than you Tommy, who is a very believable ass.
> > > > > Imagine someone who has never used electronic groups telling someone all about them?
> > > > I own a carbon Ridley frame with Shimano Di2 7970 groupset. Bought the group back in spring 2010. When Di2 was first introduced. I find it very humorous reading about all the experts waxing and waning about Di2 when they have only been using it for a few years. And yipping and yapping about 11 or even 12 speed electronic components. Rookies. Little children. I've had Di2 since it originated. With 10 speed. I've used it twice as long as all the others. I was shifting Di2 when they were still suckling their momma's teats.
> > > Well if you have to charge the battery every three years then you don't ride much on that bike. ;-)
> > >
> > > Lou
> > OK. I will admit it does not get a lot of use. 1000-2000 miles of riding per year. And it is relatively flat where I live so not too much shifting even when riding. But my point of rarely charging the battery does contradict the number one screaming complaint of those against electronic/battery groupsets. And that is the battery will die frequently. The battery does not die. The battery lasts for a long, long time. Anyone with enough brain power to shift a bicycle, will not run out of battery power during a bicycle ride. Worrying about a Di2 battery dying is comparable to someone fretting and fussing about the battery on their Timex digital watch dying.
> You can have reasons not to choose Di2, but battery life can’t be one of them. I can only think of one reason and that is cost. This is based on my experience with three Di2 equiped bikes. The oldest and most abused Di2 equipped bike is 8 years old.
Unless you're competing in the Race Across America, you're not going to wear that battery down. It is so large compared to the current drain of the derailleurs that if it is 90% worn out it would still finish a spring classic..

The new 12 speed wireless Di2 uses that same battery and the levers have small batteries that last a long time themselves. That was a GREAT idea of retaining the large battery wired to the derailleurs. I haven't bothered to look into it but I suppose that they moved the intelligence into the battery so that it no longer needs the charging unit that was mounted either under the stem or in the end of the bar.

On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 1:59:42 PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 10:45:23 PM UTC+2, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 7:08:23 AM UTC-5, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, April 12, 2022 at 10:41:48 PM UTC+2, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, April 12, 2022 at 9:03:45 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > On Tuesday, April 12, 2022 at 5:48:18 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > > > > > On 4/11/2022 10:41 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > > > > > On Monday, April 11, 2022 at 4:09:50 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > >> Without a doubt, the Shimano Di2 is the finest shifting group there is. It over shifts and then self corrects so that you get fast shifts and quiet running there is no other choice for pro riders.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Actually, Tommy, Professional riders have three choices of bicycle components. Shimano, SRAM, and Campagnolo all make mechanical and electronic groupsets. All three brands are used in the professional peloton by teams. Despite what Shimano may wish, it is not "there is no other choice for pro riders." Despite your claims.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >> Not being familiar with the Campy EPS group I can only say that there are a LOT of EPS components for sale new and used. I hear good things about the SRAM E-tap group but have never personally tried it.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> But a normal sports rider doesn't need the additional maintenance of an electronic group.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Funny. I have owned Shimano Di2 7970 groupset since 2010. I have almost never ever adjusted it since installing it 12 years ago. I think that is pretty good. Once every three years I charge the battery. Not because it ever runs out, but more as a precautionary thing.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >> The Campy Powershift Centaur group shifts slightly better than the SRAM group and the Campy Record Ultra Shift 11 speed is head and shoulders above the other manufacturers.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> SRAM has limited the number of shifts you can make and Shimano can slip out from under your hand while you're shifting large numbers of gears at once. Not to say that both SRAM and Shimano aren't good groups but that they do have a weakness that Campy doesn't have in manual groups.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> So there is very little choice in the manual shifting groups starting with the 11 speed groups.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > There are three choices amongst the groups. SRAM, Shimano, Campagnolo. That seems like enough choices to me. It is less choice than picking out a woman based on hair color. Black, brown, blonde, red hair color choices. But 3 or 4 choices is pretty close, so I would call them about the same.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >> It is also nice that both Shimano SRAM and Campy 11 speed wheels are interchangeable. Shimano wheels and cassettes are so much easier and cheaper to get in high quality wheels that you have a very large choice and thereby cheaper high quality.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> As for other components of the groups - I don't like that Hertz connection on the Campy Ultra Torque cranks but they are head and shoulders above the Shimano hollow aluminum cranks which I have broken a Dura Ace set or the SRAM with has silly different size bearings on the drive side than on the off-side. They are also a pain in the butt to get the preload correct. The FSA SLK carbon cranks are better than SRAM or Shimano in my opinion. One problem however is that the 30 mm axle gets in the way of the electronic wires if you're using an electronic group or the screw that holds on the under BB plastic wire guide if you're using manual shifting. It also makes it nearly impossible to use internal manual shift wiring though it is possible with great care.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> I cannot tell any advantage with direct mount rim brakes other than it is easier to keep them from dragging. I simply do not like disk brakes after using them on half a dozen bikes. Campy Record standard mount rim brakes work very well and can be set up to operate properly without moving. The older Campy dual axle brakes worked very well. The Dura Ace brakes I've used move about somewhat and you have to readjust them once in awhile to keep your brake levers from pulling the wheel over to one side.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> My experience with saddles is that padding makes them more comfortable for the first 10 miles or so and then progressively more painful.. Hard carbon saddle seem to retain the same level of discomfort from beginning to end and is preferable for me.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I am very happy to say I have ZERO discomfort amongst all the saddles on my bikes. It is mystifying to me that someone would choose to ride a bike with saddle discomfort. But that is Tommy I guess.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Deep aero wheels are not good for sports riders. We don't ride at a high enough average to gain anything from them and they are dangerous in crosswinds. Just yesterday I was crossing a bridge in high gusty winds and nearly got shoved into the steel side bars of the bridge path. My CT Swiss and Bontrager wheels do not do that. Or at least not to that extent.
> > > > > > Celebrate diversity!
> > > > > > https://i.pinimg.com/originals/30/46/82/3046823e11ec3ddc9bac5bfe7c25a797.jpg
> > > > > One of the diversities appears to be that Russell doesn't ride a bike. He can't understand English, and aside from the fact that he has to force himself to misunderstand my postings so that he can criticize what I say, he continues to make an almost unbelievable ass out of himself.
> > > > Well, I suppose it is better to be an almost unbelievable ass, than you Tommy, who is a very believable ass.
> > > > > Imagine someone who has never used electronic groups telling someone all about them?
> > > > I own a carbon Ridley frame with Shimano Di2 7970 groupset. Bought the group back in spring 2010. When Di2 was first introduced. I find it very humorous reading about all the experts waxing and waning about Di2 when they have only been using it for a few years. And yipping and yapping about 11 or even 12 speed electronic components. Rookies. Little children. I've had Di2 since it originated. With 10 speed. I've used it twice as long as all the others. I was shifting Di2 when they were still suckling their momma's teats.
> > > Well if you have to charge the battery every three years then you don't ride much on that bike. ;-)
> > >
> > > Lou
> > OK. I will admit it does not get a lot of use. 1000-2000 miles of riding per year. And it is relatively flat where I live so not too much shifting even when riding. But my point of rarely charging the battery does contradict the number one screaming complaint of those against electronic/battery groupsets. And that is the battery will die frequently. The battery does not die. The battery lasts for a long, long time. Anyone with enough brain power to shift a bicycle, will not run out of battery power during a bicycle ride. Worrying about a Di2 battery dying is comparable to someone fretting and fussing about the battery on their Timex digital watch dying.
> You can have reasons not to choose Di2, but battery life can’t be one of them. I can only think of one reason and that is cost. This is based on my experience with three Di2 equiped bikes. The oldest and most abused Di2 equipped bike is 8 years old.

I have had six Di2 bikes and the only complaint I would have is the expense.. I still have an external under the water bottle mount sitting right next to me. That external battery had less capacity than the internal battery and I can't even imagine putting enough riding on it to even run it down let alone cause it to stop shifting on the front derailleur

On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 5:38:03 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 1:59:42 PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 10:45:23 PM UTC+2, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 7:08:23 AM UTC-5, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, April 12, 2022 at 10:41:48 PM UTC+2, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > > > On Tuesday, April 12, 2022 at 9:03:45 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > On Tuesday, April 12, 2022 at 5:48:18 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > > > > > > On 4/11/2022 10:41 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Monday, April 11, 2022 at 4:09:50 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > >> Without a doubt, the Shimano Di2 is the finest shifting group there is. It over shifts and then self corrects so that you get fast shifts and quiet running there is no other choice for pro riders.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Actually, Tommy, Professional riders have three choices of bicycle components. Shimano, SRAM, and Campagnolo all make mechanical and electronic groupsets. All three brands are used in the professional peloton by teams. Despite what Shimano may wish, it is not "there is no other choice for pro riders." Despite your claims.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >> Not being familiar with the Campy EPS group I can only say that there are a LOT of EPS components for sale new and used. I hear good things about the SRAM E-tap group but have never personally tried it.
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> But a normal sports rider doesn't need the additional maintenance of an electronic group.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Funny. I have owned Shimano Di2 7970 groupset since 2010. I have almost never ever adjusted it since installing it 12 years ago. I think that is pretty good. Once every three years I charge the battery. Not because it ever runs out, but more as a precautionary thing.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >> The Campy Powershift Centaur group shifts slightly better than the SRAM group and the Campy Record Ultra Shift 11 speed is head and shoulders above the other manufacturers.
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> SRAM has limited the number of shifts you can make and Shimano can slip out from under your hand while you're shifting large numbers of gears at once. Not to say that both SRAM and Shimano aren't good groups but that they do have a weakness that Campy doesn't have in manual groups.
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> So there is very little choice in the manual shifting groups starting with the 11 speed groups.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > There are three choices amongst the groups. SRAM, Shimano, Campagnolo. That seems like enough choices to me. It is less choice than picking out a woman based on hair color. Black, brown, blonde, red hair color choices. But 3 or 4 choices is pretty close, so I would call them about the same.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >> It is also nice that both Shimano SRAM and Campy 11 speed wheels are interchangeable. Shimano wheels and cassettes are so much easier and cheaper to get in high quality wheels that you have a very large choice and thereby cheaper high quality.
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> As for other components of the groups - I don't like that Hertz connection on the Campy Ultra Torque cranks but they are head and shoulders above the Shimano hollow aluminum cranks which I have broken a Dura Ace set or the SRAM with has silly different size bearings on the drive side than on the off-side. They are also a pain in the butt to get the preload correct. The FSA SLK carbon cranks are better than SRAM or Shimano in my opinion. One problem however is that the 30 mm axle gets in the way of the electronic wires if you're using an electronic group or the screw that holds on the under BB plastic wire guide if you're using manual shifting. It also makes it nearly impossible to use internal manual shift wiring though it is possible with great care.
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> I cannot tell any advantage with direct mount rim brakes other than it is easier to keep them from dragging. I simply do not like disk brakes after using them on half a dozen bikes. Campy Record standard mount rim brakes work very well and can be set up to operate properly without moving. The older Campy dual axle brakes worked very well. The Dura Ace brakes I've used move about somewhat and you have to readjust them once in awhile to keep your brake levers from pulling the wheel over to one side.
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> My experience with saddles is that padding makes them more comfortable for the first 10 miles or so and then progressively more painful. Hard carbon saddle seem to retain the same level of discomfort from beginning to end and is preferable for me.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I am very happy to say I have ZERO discomfort amongst all the saddles on my bikes. It is mystifying to me that someone would choose to ride a bike with saddle discomfort. But that is Tommy I guess.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> Deep aero wheels are not good for sports riders. We don't ride at a high enough average to gain anything from them and they are dangerous in crosswinds. Just yesterday I was crossing a bridge in high gusty winds and nearly got shoved into the steel side bars of the bridge path. My CT Swiss and Bontrager wheels do not do that. Or at least not to that extent..
> > > > > > > Celebrate diversity!
> > > > > > > https://i.pinimg.com/originals/30/46/82/3046823e11ec3ddc9bac5bfe7c25a797.jpg
> > > > > > One of the diversities appears to be that Russell doesn't ride a bike. He can't understand English, and aside from the fact that he has to force himself to misunderstand my postings so that he can criticize what I say, he continues to make an almost unbelievable ass out of himself.
> > > > > Well, I suppose it is better to be an almost unbelievable ass, than you Tommy, who is a very believable ass.
> > > > > > Imagine someone who has never used electronic groups telling someone all about them?
> > > > > I own a carbon Ridley frame with Shimano Di2 7970 groupset. Bought the group back in spring 2010. When Di2 was first introduced. I find it very humorous reading about all the experts waxing and waning about Di2 when they have only been using it for a few years. And yipping and yapping about 11 or even 12 speed electronic components. Rookies. Little children. I've had Di2 since it originated. With 10 speed. I've used it twice as long as all the others. I was shifting Di2 when they were still suckling their momma's teats.
> > > > Well if you have to charge the battery every three years then you don't ride much on that bike. ;-)
> > > >
> > > > Lou
> > > OK. I will admit it does not get a lot of use. 1000-2000 miles of riding per year. And it is relatively flat where I live so not too much shifting even when riding. But my point of rarely charging the battery does contradict the number one screaming complaint of those against electronic/battery groupsets. And that is the battery will die frequently. The battery does not die. The battery lasts for a long, long time. Anyone with enough brain power to shift a bicycle, will not run out of battery power during a bicycle ride. Worrying about a Di2 battery dying is comparable to someone fretting and fussing about the battery on their Timex digital watch dying.
> > You can have reasons not to choose Di2, but battery life can’t be one of them. I can only think of one reason and that is cost. This is based on my experience with three Di2 equiped bikes. The oldest and most abused Di2 equipped bike is 8 years old.
> Unless you're competing in the Race Across America, you're not going to wear that battery down. It is so large compared to the current drain of the derailleurs that if it is 90% worn out it would still finish a spring classic.
>
> The new 12 speed wireless Di2 uses that same battery and the levers have small batteries that last a long time themselves. That was a GREAT idea of retaining the large battery wired to the derailleurs. I haven't bothered to look into it but I suppose that they moved the intelligence into the battery so that it no longer needs the charging unit that was mounted either under the stem or in the end of the bar.
>
> Why would you suppose that Russell would say that he has "zero discomfort" on his saddles?

On 4/13/2022 4:59 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 10:45:23 PM UTC+2, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
>> On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 7:08:23 AM UTC-5, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, April 12, 2022 at 10:41:48 PM UTC+2, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>> On Tuesday, April 12, 2022 at 9:03:45 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>> On Tuesday, April 12, 2022 at 5:48:18 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>> On 4/11/2022 10:41 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>>>> On Monday, April 11, 2022 at 4:09:50 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>> Without a doubt, the Shimano Di2 is the finest shifting group there is. It over shifts and then self corrects so that you get fast shifts and quiet running there is no other choice for pro riders.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Actually, Tommy, Professional riders have three choices of bicycle components. Shimano, SRAM, and Campagnolo all make mechanical and electronic groupsets. All three brands are used in the professional peloton by teams. Despite what Shimano may wish, it is not "there is no other choice for pro riders." Despite your claims.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Not being familiar with the Campy EPS group I can only say that there are a LOT of EPS components for sale new and used. I hear good things about the SRAM E-tap group but have never personally tried it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But a normal sports rider doesn't need the additional maintenance of an electronic group.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Funny. I have owned Shimano Di2 7970 groupset since 2010. I have almost never ever adjusted it since installing it 12 years ago. I think that is pretty good. Once every three years I charge the battery. Not because it ever runs out, but more as a precautionary thing.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The Campy Powershift Centaur group shifts slightly better than the SRAM group and the Campy Record Ultra Shift 11 speed is head and shoulders above the other manufacturers.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> SRAM has limited the number of shifts you can make and Shimano can slip out from under your hand while you're shifting large numbers of gears at once. Not to say that both SRAM and Shimano aren't good groups but that they do have a weakness that Campy doesn't have in manual groups.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So there is very little choice in the manual shifting groups starting with the 11 speed groups.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There are three choices amongst the groups. SRAM, Shimano, Campagnolo. That seems like enough choices to me. It is less choice than picking out a woman based on hair color. Black, brown, blonde, red hair color choices. But 3 or 4 choices is pretty close, so I would call them about the same.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It is also nice that both Shimano SRAM and Campy 11 speed wheels are interchangeable. Shimano wheels and cassettes are so much easier and cheaper to get in high quality wheels that you have a very large choice and thereby cheaper high quality.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As for other components of the groups - I don't like that Hertz connection on the Campy Ultra Torque cranks but they are head and shoulders above the Shimano hollow aluminum cranks which I have broken a Dura Ace set or the SRAM with has silly different size bearings on the drive side than on the off-side. They are also a pain in the butt to get the preload correct. The FSA SLK carbon cranks are better than SRAM or Shimano in my opinion. One problem however is that the 30 mm axle gets in the way of the electronic wires if you're using an electronic group or the screw that holds on the under BB plastic wire guide if you're using manual shifting. It also makes it nearly impossible to use internal manual shift wiring though it is possible with great care.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I cannot tell any advantage with direct mount rim brakes other than it is easier to keep them from dragging. I simply do not like disk brakes after using them on half a dozen bikes. Campy Record standard mount rim brakes work very well and can be set up to operate properly without moving. The older Campy dual axle brakes worked very well. The Dura Ace brakes I've used move about somewhat and you have to readjust them once in awhile to keep your brake levers from pulling the wheel over to one side.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> My experience with saddles is that padding makes them more comfortable for the first 10 miles or so and then progressively more painful. Hard carbon saddle seem to retain the same level of discomfort from beginning to end and is preferable for me.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I am very happy to say I have ZERO discomfort amongst all the saddles on my bikes. It is mystifying to me that someone would choose to ride a bike with saddle discomfort. But that is Tommy I guess.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Deep aero wheels are not good for sports riders. We don't ride at a high enough average to gain anything from them and they are dangerous in crosswinds. Just yesterday I was crossing a bridge in high gusty winds and nearly got shoved into the steel side bars of the bridge path. My CT Swiss and Bontrager wheels do not do that. Or at least not to that extent.
>>>>>> Celebrate diversity!
>>>>>> https://i.pinimg.com/originals/30/46/82/3046823e11ec3ddc9bac5bfe7c25a797.jpg
>>>>> One of the diversities appears to be that Russell doesn't ride a bike. He can't understand English, and aside from the fact that he has to force himself to misunderstand my postings so that he can criticize what I say, he continues to make an almost unbelievable ass out of himself.
>>>> Well, I suppose it is better to be an almost unbelievable ass, than you Tommy, who is a very believable ass.
>>>>> Imagine someone who has never used electronic groups telling someone all about them?
>>>> I own a carbon Ridley frame with Shimano Di2 7970 groupset. Bought the group back in spring 2010. When Di2 was first introduced. I find it very humorous reading about all the experts waxing and waning about Di2 when they have only been using it for a few years. And yipping and yapping about 11 or even 12 speed electronic components. Rookies. Little children. I've had Di2 since it originated. With 10 speed. I've used it twice as long as all the others. I was shifting Di2 when they were still suckling their momma's teats.
>>> Well if you have to charge the battery every three years then you don't ride much on that bike. ;-)
>>>
>>> Lou
>> OK. I will admit it does not get a lot of use. 1000-2000 miles of riding per year. And it is relatively flat where I live so not too much shifting even when riding. But my point of rarely charging the battery does contradict the number one screaming complaint of those against electronic/battery groupsets. And that is the battery will die frequently. The battery does not die. The battery lasts for a long, long time. Anyone with enough brain power to shift a bicycle, will not run out of battery power during a bicycle ride. Worrying about a Di2 battery dying is comparable to someone fretting and fussing about the battery on their Timex digital watch dying.
>
> You can have reasons not to choose Di2, but battery life can’t be one of them. I can only think of one reason and that is cost. This is based on my experience with three Di2 equiped bikes. The oldest and most abused Di2 equipped bike is 8 years old.
>
> Lou

Another reason might be compatibility issues.

Is Di2 available to shift our tandem's drivetrain? That's six SunTour
cogs and TA half step plus granny chainrings. ;-)

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 4/13/2022 8:08 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 5:38:03 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 1:59:42 PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 10:45:23 PM UTC+2, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>> On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 7:08:23 AM UTC-5, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>> On Tuesday, April 12, 2022 at 10:41:48 PM UTC+2, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>>> On Tuesday, April 12, 2022 at 9:03:45 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>> On Tuesday, April 12, 2022 at 5:48:18 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 4/11/2022 10:41 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Monday, April 11, 2022 at 4:09:50 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Without a doubt, the Shimano Di2 is the finest shifting group there is. It over shifts and then self corrects so that you get fast shifts and quiet running there is no other choice for pro riders.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Actually, Tommy, Professional riders have three choices of bicycle components. Shimano, SRAM, and Campagnolo all make mechanical and electronic groupsets. All three brands are used in the professional peloton by teams. Despite what Shimano may wish, it is not "there is no other choice for pro riders." Despite your claims.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Not being familiar with the Campy EPS group I can only say that there are a LOT of EPS components for sale new and used. I hear good things about the SRAM E-tap group but have never personally tried it.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> But a normal sports rider doesn't need the additional maintenance of an electronic group.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Funny. I have owned Shimano Di2 7970 groupset since 2010. I have almost never ever adjusted it since installing it 12 years ago. I think that is pretty good. Once every three years I charge the battery. Not because it ever runs out, but more as a precautionary thing.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The Campy Powershift Centaur group shifts slightly better than the SRAM group and the Campy Record Ultra Shift 11 speed is head and shoulders above the other manufacturers.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> SRAM has limited the number of shifts you can make and Shimano can slip out from under your hand while you're shifting large numbers of gears at once. Not to say that both SRAM and Shimano aren't good groups but that they do have a weakness that Campy doesn't have in manual groups.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> So there is very little choice in the manual shifting groups starting with the 11 speed groups.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There are three choices amongst the groups. SRAM, Shimano, Campagnolo. That seems like enough choices to me. It is less choice than picking out a woman based on hair color. Black, brown, blonde, red hair color choices. But 3 or 4 choices is pretty close, so I would call them about the same.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It is also nice that both Shimano SRAM and Campy 11 speed wheels are interchangeable. Shimano wheels and cassettes are so much easier and cheaper to get in high quality wheels that you have a very large choice and thereby cheaper high quality.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> As for other components of the groups - I don't like that Hertz connection on the Campy Ultra Torque cranks but they are head and shoulders above the Shimano hollow aluminum cranks which I have broken a Dura Ace set or the SRAM with has silly different size bearings on the drive side than on the off-side. They are also a pain in the butt to get the preload correct. The FSA SLK carbon cranks are better than SRAM or Shimano in my opinion. One problem however is that the 30 mm axle gets in the way of the electronic wires if you're using an electronic group or the screw that holds on the under BB plastic wire guide if you're using manual shifting. It also makes it nearly impossible to use internal manual shift wiring though it is possible with great care.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I cannot tell any advantage with direct mount rim brakes other than it is easier to keep them from dragging. I simply do not like disk brakes after using them on half a dozen bikes. Campy Record standard mount rim brakes work very well and can be set up to operate properly without moving. The older Campy dual axle brakes worked very well. The Dura Ace brakes I've used move about somewhat and you have to readjust them once in awhile to keep your brake levers from pulling the wheel over to one side.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> My experience with saddles is that padding makes them more comfortable for the first 10 miles or so and then progressively more painful. Hard carbon saddle seem to retain the same level of discomfort from beginning to end and is preferable for me.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I am very happy to say I have ZERO discomfort amongst all the saddles on my bikes. It is mystifying to me that someone would choose to ride a bike with saddle discomfort. But that is Tommy I guess.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Deep aero wheels are not good for sports riders. We don't ride at a high enough average to gain anything from them and they are dangerous in crosswinds. Just yesterday I was crossing a bridge in high gusty winds and nearly got shoved into the steel side bars of the bridge path. My CT Swiss and Bontrager wheels do not do that. Or at least not to that extent.
>>>>>>>> Celebrate diversity!
>>>>>>>> https://i.pinimg.com/originals/30/46/82/3046823e11ec3ddc9bac5bfe7c25a797.jpg
>>>>>>> One of the diversities appears to be that Russell doesn't ride a bike. He can't understand English, and aside from the fact that he has to force himself to misunderstand my postings so that he can criticize what I say, he continues to make an almost unbelievable ass out of himself.
>>>>>> Well, I suppose it is better to be an almost unbelievable ass, than you Tommy, who is a very believable ass.
>>>>>>> Imagine someone who has never used electronic groups telling someone all about them?
>>>>>> I own a carbon Ridley frame with Shimano Di2 7970 groupset. Bought the group back in spring 2010. When Di2 was first introduced. I find it very humorous reading about all the experts waxing and waning about Di2 when they have only been using it for a few years. And yipping and yapping about 11 or even 12 speed electronic components. Rookies. Little children. I've had Di2 since it originated. With 10 speed. I've used it twice as long as all the others. I was shifting Di2 when they were still suckling their momma's teats.
>>>>> Well if you have to charge the battery every three years then you don't ride much on that bike. ;-)
>>>>>
>>>>> Lou
>>>> OK. I will admit it does not get a lot of use. 1000-2000 miles of riding per year. And it is relatively flat where I live so not too much shifting even when riding. But my point of rarely charging the battery does contradict the number one screaming complaint of those against electronic/battery groupsets. And that is the battery will die frequently. The battery does not die. The battery lasts for a long, long time. Anyone with enough brain power to shift a bicycle, will not run out of battery power during a bicycle ride. Worrying about a Di2 battery dying is comparable to someone fretting and fussing about the battery on their Timex digital watch dying.
>>> You can have reasons not to choose Di2, but battery life can’t be one of them. I can only think of one reason and that is cost. This is based on my experience with three Di2 equiped bikes. The oldest and most abused Di2 equipped bike is 8 years old.
>> Unless you're competing in the Race Across America, you're not going to wear that battery down. It is so large compared to the current drain of the derailleurs that if it is 90% worn out it would still finish a spring classic.
>>
>> The new 12 speed wireless Di2 uses that same battery and the levers have small batteries that last a long time themselves. That was a GREAT idea of retaining the large battery wired to the derailleurs. I haven't bothered to look into it but I suppose that they moved the intelligence into the battery so that it no longer needs the charging unit that was mounted either under the stem or in the end of the bar.
>>
>> Why would you suppose that Russell would say that he has "zero discomfort" on his saddles?
>
> Because I have zero discomfort from my bicycle saddles? Seems somewhat easy to understand. To me and almost everyone else. I have never had any issues with finding comfortable saddles.
>
>
>> That is the major complaint of all cyclists with proper bike fit.
>
> Yes, I have heard that lots of people complain endlessly about how uncomfortable their saddle is. Not me. And for proper bike fit, seems to me if you have proper bike fit, your saddle would fit too. Right? If your reach and weight distribution and saddle comfort were perfect. But your saddle was 6 inches too low. Would you say they have proper bike fit?
>
>
>> Or maybe he uses one of those leather saddles that require 2 years to break in? And weigh more than my C50?
>
> Long, long, long ago, back when the dinosaurs and cro magnon man hunted wooly mammoths, I had an Ideale saddle. French perfection times ten. It had an aluminum undercarriage. And fit on a straight seatpost that necked down at the top. But eventually, after thirty years, the leather and rivets separated. I sadly retired it. I have six Brooks saddles on various bikes now. B17, Team Pro, Pro, Swift are the models. The Swift saddles have titanium rails. Lightweight. Google says it weighs 390 grams. Your Colnago C50 must be very light to be 14 ounces. Wow. No wonder Tommy can float up the hills and embarrass all the young racer boys with his speed. As for breaking in my leather saddles. No. They were completely comfortable the first time I put my weight upon them.
>

On Wed, 13 Apr 2022 20:58:04 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 4/13/2022 8:08 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
>> On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 5:38:03 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 1:59:42 PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>> On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 10:45:23 PM UTC+2, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>> On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 7:08:23 AM UTC-5, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>> On Tuesday, April 12, 2022 at 10:41:48 PM UTC+2, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>>>> On Tuesday, April 12, 2022 at 9:03:45 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, April 12, 2022 at 5:48:18 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 4/11/2022 10:41 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, April 11, 2022 at 4:09:50 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Without a doubt, the Shimano Di2 is the finest shifting group there is. It over shifts and then self corrects so that you get fast shifts and quiet running there is no other choice for pro riders.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Actually, Tommy, Professional riders have three choices of bicycle components. Shimano, SRAM, and Campagnolo all make mechanical and electronic groupsets. All three brands are used in the professional peloton by teams. Despite what Shimano may wish, it is not "there is no other choice for pro riders." Despite your claims.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Not being familiar with the Campy EPS group I can only say that there are a LOT of EPS components for sale new and used. I hear good things about the SRAM E-tap group but have never personally tried it.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> But a normal sports rider doesn't need the additional maintenance of an electronic group.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Funny. I have owned Shimano Di2 7970 groupset since 2010. I have almost never ever adjusted it since installing it 12 years ago. I think that is pretty good. Once every three years I charge the battery. Not because it ever runs out, but more as a precautionary thing.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The Campy Powershift Centaur group shifts slightly better than the SRAM group and the Campy Record Ultra Shift 11 speed is head and shoulders above the other manufacturers.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> SRAM has limited the number of shifts you can make and Shimano can slip out from under your hand while you're shifting large numbers of gears at once. Not to say that both SRAM and Shimano aren't good groups but that they do have a weakness that Campy doesn't have in manual groups.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> So there is very little choice in the manual shifting groups starting with the 11 speed groups.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> There are three choices amongst the groups. SRAM, Shimano, Campagnolo. That seems like enough choices to me. It is less choice than picking out a woman based on hair color. Black, brown, blonde, red hair color choices. But 3 or 4 choices is pretty close, so I would call them about the same.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> It is also nice that both Shimano SRAM and Campy 11 speed wheels are interchangeable. Shimano wheels and cassettes are so much easier and cheaper to get in high quality wheels that you have a very large choice and thereby cheaper high quality.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> As for other components of the groups - I don't like that Hertz connection on the Campy Ultra Torque cranks but they are head and shoulders above the Shimano hollow aluminum cranks which I have broken a Dura Ace set or the SRAM with has silly different size bearings on the drive side than on the off-side. They are also a pain in the butt to get the preload correct. The FSA SLK carbon cranks are better than SRAM or Shimano in my opinion. One problem however is that the 30 mm axle gets in the way of the electronic wires if you're using an electronic group or the screw that holds on the under BB plastic wire guide if you're using manual shifting. It also makes it nearly impossible to use internal manual shift wiring though it is possible with great care.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I cannot tell any advantage with direct mount rim brakes other than it is easier to keep them from dragging. I simply do not like disk brakes after using them on half a dozen bikes. Campy Record standard mount rim brakes work very well and can be set up to operate properly without moving. The older Campy dual axle brakes worked very well. The Dura Ace brakes I've used move about somewhat and you have to readjust them once in awhile to keep your brake levers from pulling the wheel over to one side.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> My experience with saddles is that padding makes them more comfortable for the first 10 miles or so and then progressively more painful. Hard carbon saddle seem to retain the same level of discomfort from beginning to end and is preferable for me.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I am very happy to say I have ZERO discomfort amongst all the saddles on my bikes. It is mystifying to me that someone would choose to ride a bike with saddle discomfort. But that is Tommy I guess.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Deep aero wheels are not good for sports riders. We don't ride at a high enough average to gain anything from them and they are dangerous in crosswinds. Just yesterday I was crossing a bridge in high gusty winds and nearly got shoved into the steel side bars of the bridge path. My CT Swiss and Bontrager wheels do not do that. Or at least not to that extent.
>>>>>>>>> Celebrate diversity!
>>>>>>>>> https://i.pinimg.com/originals/30/46/82/3046823e11ec3ddc9bac5bfe7c25a797.jpg
>>>>>>>> One of the diversities appears to be that Russell doesn't ride a bike. He can't understand English, and aside from the fact that he has to force himself to misunderstand my postings so that he can criticize what I say, he continues to make an almost unbelievable ass out of himself.
>>>>>>> Well, I suppose it is better to be an almost unbelievable ass, than you Tommy, who is a very believable ass.
>>>>>>>> Imagine someone who has never used electronic groups telling someone all about them?
>>>>>>> I own a carbon Ridley frame with Shimano Di2 7970 groupset. Bought the group back in spring 2010. When Di2 was first introduced. I find it very humorous reading about all the experts waxing and waning about Di2 when they have only been using it for a few years. And yipping and yapping about 11 or even 12 speed electronic components. Rookies. Little children. I've had Di2 since it originated. With 10 speed. I've used it twice as long as all the others. I was shifting Di2 when they were still suckling their momma's teats.
>>>>>> Well if you have to charge the battery every three years then you don't ride much on that bike. ;-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lou
>>>>> OK. I will admit it does not get a lot of use. 1000-2000 miles of riding per year. And it is relatively flat where I live so not too much shifting even when riding. But my point of rarely charging the battery does contradict the number one screaming complaint of those against electronic/battery groupsets. And that is the battery will die frequently. The battery does not die. The battery lasts for a long, long time. Anyone with enough brain power to shift a bicycle, will not run out of battery power during a bicycle ride. Worrying about a Di2 battery dying is comparable to someone fretting and fussing about the battery on their Timex digital watch dying.
>>>> You can have reasons not to choose Di2, but battery life can’t be one of them. I can only think of one reason and that is cost. This is based on my experience with three Di2 equiped bikes. The oldest and most abused Di2 equipped bike is 8 years old.
>>> Unless you're competing in the Race Across America, you're not going to wear that battery down. It is so large compared to the current drain of the derailleurs that if it is 90% worn out it would still finish a spring classic.
>>>
>>> The new 12 speed wireless Di2 uses that same battery and the levers have small batteries that last a long time themselves. That was a GREAT idea of retaining the large battery wired to the derailleurs. I haven't bothered to look into it but I suppose that they moved the intelligence into the battery so that it no longer needs the charging unit that was mounted either under the stem or in the end of the bar.
>>>
>>> Why would you suppose that Russell would say that he has "zero discomfort" on his saddles?
>>
>> Because I have zero discomfort from my bicycle saddles? Seems somewhat easy to understand. To me and almost everyone else. I have never had any issues with finding comfortable saddles.
>>
>>
>>> That is the major complaint of all cyclists with proper bike fit.
>>
>> Yes, I have heard that lots of people complain endlessly about how uncomfortable their saddle is. Not me. And for proper bike fit, seems to me if you have proper bike fit, your saddle would fit too. Right? If your reach and weight distribution and saddle comfort were perfect. But your saddle was 6 inches too low. Would you say they have proper bike fit?
>>
>>
>>> Or maybe he uses one of those leather saddles that require 2 years to break in? And weigh more than my C50?
>>
>> Long, long, long ago, back when the dinosaurs and cro magnon man hunted wooly mammoths, I had an Ideale saddle. French perfection times ten. It had an aluminum undercarriage. And fit on a straight seatpost that necked down at the top. But eventually, after thirty years, the leather and rivets separated. I sadly retired it. I have six Brooks saddles on various bikes now. B17, Team Pro, Pro, Swift are the models. The Swift saddles have titanium rails. Lightweight. Google says it weighs 390 grams. Your Colnago C50 must be very light to be 14 ounces. Wow. No wonder Tommy can float up the hills and embarrass all the young racer boys with his speed. As for breaking in my leather saddles. No. They were completely comfortable the first time I put my weight upon them.
>>
>
>I also rode an Idéale 90IR for many years (broken by an
>ex-friend in a crash. Never loan your bicycle). You should
>have used the Zeus Idéale post!
>
>https://www.ebykr.com/ideale-saddles-behind-leather-curtain/ebykr-ideale-saddle-zeus-seatpost-integrated/
>
>But I've never been comfortable on a Brooks. I'm surprised
>you took to both shapes. I moved easily to Cinelli #5 and
>Turbo.

On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 8:58:11 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> On 4/13/2022 8:08 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 5:38:03 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 1:59:42 PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> >>> On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 10:45:23 PM UTC+2, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >>>> On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 7:08:23 AM UTC-5, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>>> On Tuesday, April 12, 2022 at 10:41:48 PM UTC+2, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >>>>>> On Tuesday, April 12, 2022 at 9:03:45 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Tuesday, April 12, 2022 at 5:48:18 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On 4/11/2022 10:41 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> On Monday, April 11, 2022 at 4:09:50 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> Without a doubt, the Shimano Di2 is the finest shifting group there is. It over shifts and then self corrects so that you get fast shifts and quiet running there is no other choice for pro riders.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Actually, Tommy, Professional riders have three choices of bicycle components. Shimano, SRAM, and Campagnolo all make mechanical and electronic groupsets. All three brands are used in the professional peloton by teams. Despite what Shimano may wish, it is not "there is no other choice for pro riders." Despite your claims.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Not being familiar with the Campy EPS group I can only say that there are a LOT of EPS components for sale new and used. I hear good things about the SRAM E-tap group but have never personally tried it.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> But a normal sports rider doesn't need the additional maintenance of an electronic group.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Funny. I have owned Shimano Di2 7970 groupset since 2010. I have almost never ever adjusted it since installing it 12 years ago. I think that is pretty good. Once every three years I charge the battery. Not because it ever runs out, but more as a precautionary thing.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> The Campy Powershift Centaur group shifts slightly better than the SRAM group and the Campy Record Ultra Shift 11 speed is head and shoulders above the other manufacturers.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> SRAM has limited the number of shifts you can make and Shimano can slip out from under your hand while you're shifting large numbers of gears at once. Not to say that both SRAM and Shimano aren't good groups but that they do have a weakness that Campy doesn't have in manual groups.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> So there is very little choice in the manual shifting groups starting with the 11 speed groups.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> There are three choices amongst the groups. SRAM, Shimano, Campagnolo. That seems like enough choices to me. It is less choice than picking out a woman based on hair color. Black, brown, blonde, red hair color choices. But 3 or 4 choices is pretty close, so I would call them about the same.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> It is also nice that both Shimano SRAM and Campy 11 speed wheels are interchangeable. Shimano wheels and cassettes are so much easier and cheaper to get in high quality wheels that you have a very large choice and thereby cheaper high quality.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> As for other components of the groups - I don't like that Hertz connection on the Campy Ultra Torque cranks but they are head and shoulders above the Shimano hollow aluminum cranks which I have broken a Dura Ace set or the SRAM with has silly different size bearings on the drive side than on the off-side. They are also a pain in the butt to get the preload correct. The FSA SLK carbon cranks are better than SRAM or Shimano in my opinion. One problem however is that the 30 mm axle gets in the way of the electronic wires if you're using an electronic group or the screw that holds on the under BB plastic wire guide if you're using manual shifting. It also makes it nearly impossible to use internal manual shift wiring though it is possible with great care.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> I cannot tell any advantage with direct mount rim brakes other than it is easier to keep them from dragging. I simply do not like disk brakes after using them on half a dozen bikes. Campy Record standard mount rim brakes work very well and can be set up to operate properly without moving. The older Campy dual axle brakes worked very well. The Dura Ace brakes I've used move about somewhat and you have to readjust them once in awhile to keep your brake levers from pulling the wheel over to one side.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> My experience with saddles is that padding makes them more comfortable for the first 10 miles or so and then progressively more painful. Hard carbon saddle seem to retain the same level of discomfort from beginning to end and is preferable for me.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> I am very happy to say I have ZERO discomfort amongst all the saddles on my bikes. It is mystifying to me that someone would choose to ride a bike with saddle discomfort. But that is Tommy I guess.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Deep aero wheels are not good for sports riders. We don't ride at a high enough average to gain anything from them and they are dangerous in crosswinds. Just yesterday I was crossing a bridge in high gusty winds and nearly got shoved into the steel side bars of the bridge path. My CT Swiss and Bontrager wheels do not do that. Or at least not to that extent.
> >>>>>>>> Celebrate diversity!
> >>>>>>>> https://i.pinimg.com/originals/30/46/82/3046823e11ec3ddc9bac5bfe7c25a797.jpg
> >>>>>>> One of the diversities appears to be that Russell doesn't ride a bike. He can't understand English, and aside from the fact that he has to force himself to misunderstand my postings so that he can criticize what I say, he continues to make an almost unbelievable ass out of himself.
> >>>>>> Well, I suppose it is better to be an almost unbelievable ass, than you Tommy, who is a very believable ass.
> >>>>>>> Imagine someone who has never used electronic groups telling someone all about them?
> >>>>>> I own a carbon Ridley frame with Shimano Di2 7970 groupset. Bought the group back in spring 2010. When Di2 was first introduced. I find it very humorous reading about all the experts waxing and waning about Di2 when they have only been using it for a few years. And yipping and yapping about 11 or even 12 speed electronic components. Rookies. Little children. I've had Di2 since it originated. With 10 speed. I've used it twice as long as all the others. I was shifting Di2 when they were still suckling their momma's teats.
> >>>>> Well if you have to charge the battery every three years then you don't ride much on that bike. ;-)
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Lou
> >>>> OK. I will admit it does not get a lot of use. 1000-2000 miles of riding per year. And it is relatively flat where I live so not too much shifting even when riding. But my point of rarely charging the battery does contradict the number one screaming complaint of those against electronic/battery groupsets. And that is the battery will die frequently. The battery does not die. The battery lasts for a long, long time. Anyone with enough brain power to shift a bicycle, will not run out of battery power during a bicycle ride. Worrying about a Di2 battery dying is comparable to someone fretting and fussing about the battery on their Timex digital watch dying.
> >>> You can have reasons not to choose Di2, but battery life can’t be one of them. I can only think of one reason and that is cost. This is based on my experience with three Di2 equiped bikes. The oldest and most abused Di2 equipped bike is 8 years old.
> >> Unless you're competing in the Race Across America, you're not going to wear that battery down. It is so large compared to the current drain of the derailleurs that if it is 90% worn out it would still finish a spring classic.
> >>
> >> The new 12 speed wireless Di2 uses that same battery and the levers have small batteries that last a long time themselves. That was a GREAT idea of retaining the large battery wired to the derailleurs. I haven't bothered to look into it but I suppose that they moved the intelligence into the battery so that it no longer needs the charging unit that was mounted either under the stem or in the end of the bar.
> >>
> >> Why would you suppose that Russell would say that he has "zero discomfort" on his saddles?
> >
> > Because I have zero discomfort from my bicycle saddles? Seems somewhat easy to understand. To me and almost everyone else. I have never had any issues with finding comfortable saddles.
> >
> >
> >> That is the major complaint of all cyclists with proper bike fit.
> >
> > Yes, I have heard that lots of people complain endlessly about how uncomfortable their saddle is. Not me. And for proper bike fit, seems to me if you have proper bike fit, your saddle would fit too. Right? If your reach and weight distribution and saddle comfort were perfect. But your saddle was 6 inches too low. Would you say they have proper bike fit?
> >
> >
> >> Or maybe he uses one of those leather saddles that require 2 years to break in? And weigh more than my C50?
> >
> > Long, long, long ago, back when the dinosaurs and cro magnon man hunted wooly mammoths, I had an Ideale saddle. French perfection times ten. It had an aluminum undercarriage. And fit on a straight seatpost that necked down at the top. But eventually, after thirty years, the leather and rivets separated. I sadly retired it. I have six Brooks saddles on various bikes now.. B17, Team Pro, Pro, Swift are the models. The Swift saddles have titanium rails. Lightweight. Google says it weighs 390 grams. Your Colnago C50 must be very light to be 14 ounces. Wow. No wonder Tommy can float up the hills and embarrass all the young racer boys with his speed. As for breaking in my leather saddles. No. They were completely comfortable the first time I put my weight upon them.
> >
> I also rode an Idéale 90IR for many years (broken by an
> ex-friend in a crash. Never loan your bicycle). You should
> have used the Zeus Idéale post!
>
> https://www.ebykr.com/ideale-saddles-behind-leather-curtain/ebykr-ideale-saddle-zeus-seatpost-integrated/
>

On 4/13/2022 9:31 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Wed, 13 Apr 2022 20:58:04 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>> On 4/13/2022 8:08 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 5:38:03 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 1:59:42 PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>>> On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 10:45:23 PM UTC+2, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>>> On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 7:08:23 AM UTC-5, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>> On Tuesday, April 12, 2022 at 10:41:48 PM UTC+2, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, April 12, 2022 at 9:03:45 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, April 12, 2022 at 5:48:18 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 4/11/2022 10:41 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, April 11, 2022 at 4:09:50 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Without a doubt, the Shimano Di2 is the finest shifting group there is. It over shifts and then self corrects so that you get fast shifts and quiet running there is no other choice for pro riders.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Actually, Tommy, Professional riders have three choices of bicycle components. Shimano, SRAM, and Campagnolo all make mechanical and electronic groupsets. All three brands are used in the professional peloton by teams. Despite what Shimano may wish, it is not "there is no other choice for pro riders." Despite your claims.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Not being familiar with the Campy EPS group I can only say that there are a LOT of EPS components for sale new and used. I hear good things about the SRAM E-tap group but have never personally tried it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> But a normal sports rider doesn't need the additional maintenance of an electronic group.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Funny. I have owned Shimano Di2 7970 groupset since 2010. I have almost never ever adjusted it since installing it 12 years ago. I think that is pretty good. Once every three years I charge the battery. Not because it ever runs out, but more as a precautionary thing.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The Campy Powershift Centaur group shifts slightly better than the SRAM group and the Campy Record Ultra Shift 11 speed is head and shoulders above the other manufacturers.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> SRAM has limited the number of shifts you can make and Shimano can slip out from under your hand while you're shifting large numbers of gears at once. Not to say that both SRAM and Shimano aren't good groups but that they do have a weakness that Campy doesn't have in manual groups.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> So there is very little choice in the manual shifting groups starting with the 11 speed groups.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> There are three choices amongst the groups. SRAM, Shimano, Campagnolo. That seems like enough choices to me. It is less choice than picking out a woman based on hair color. Black, brown, blonde, red hair color choices. But 3 or 4 choices is pretty close, so I would call them about the same.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> It is also nice that both Shimano SRAM and Campy 11 speed wheels are interchangeable. Shimano wheels and cassettes are so much easier and cheaper to get in high quality wheels that you have a very large choice and thereby cheaper high quality.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> As for other components of the groups - I don't like that Hertz connection on the Campy Ultra Torque cranks but they are head and shoulders above the Shimano hollow aluminum cranks which I have broken a Dura Ace set or the SRAM with has silly different size bearings on the drive side than on the off-side. They are also a pain in the butt to get the preload correct. The FSA SLK carbon cranks are better than SRAM or Shimano in my opinion. One problem however is that the 30 mm axle gets in the way of the electronic wires if you're using an electronic group or the screw that holds on the under BB plastic wire guide if you're using manual shifting. It also makes it nearly impossible to use internal manual shift wiring though it is possible with great care.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I cannot tell any advantage with direct mount rim brakes other than it is easier to keep them from dragging. I simply do not like disk brakes after using them on half a dozen bikes. Campy Record standard mount rim brakes work very well and can be set up to operate properly without moving. The older Campy dual axle brakes worked very well. The Dura Ace brakes I've used move about somewhat and you have to readjust them once in awhile to keep your brake levers from pulling the wheel over to one side.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> My experience with saddles is that padding makes them more comfortable for the first 10 miles or so and then progressively more painful. Hard carbon saddle seem to retain the same level of discomfort from beginning to end and is preferable for me.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I am very happy to say I have ZERO discomfort amongst all the saddles on my bikes. It is mystifying to me that someone would choose to ride a bike with saddle discomfort. But that is Tommy I guess.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Deep aero wheels are not good for sports riders. We don't ride at a high enough average to gain anything from them and they are dangerous in crosswinds. Just yesterday I was crossing a bridge in high gusty winds and nearly got shoved into the steel side bars of the bridge path. My CT Swiss and Bontrager wheels do not do that. Or at least not to that extent.
>>>>>>>>>> Celebrate diversity!
>>>>>>>>>> https://i.pinimg.com/originals/30/46/82/3046823e11ec3ddc9bac5bfe7c25a797.jpg
>>>>>>>>> One of the diversities appears to be that Russell doesn't ride a bike. He can't understand English, and aside from the fact that he has to force himself to misunderstand my postings so that he can criticize what I say, he continues to make an almost unbelievable ass out of himself.
>>>>>>>> Well, I suppose it is better to be an almost unbelievable ass, than you Tommy, who is a very believable ass.
>>>>>>>>> Imagine someone who has never used electronic groups telling someone all about them?
>>>>>>>> I own a carbon Ridley frame with Shimano Di2 7970 groupset. Bought the group back in spring 2010. When Di2 was first introduced. I find it very humorous reading about all the experts waxing and waning about Di2 when they have only been using it for a few years. And yipping and yapping about 11 or even 12 speed electronic components. Rookies. Little children. I've had Di2 since it originated. With 10 speed. I've used it twice as long as all the others. I was shifting Di2 when they were still suckling their momma's teats.
>>>>>>> Well if you have to charge the battery every three years then you don't ride much on that bike. ;-)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Lou
>>>>>> OK. I will admit it does not get a lot of use. 1000-2000 miles of riding per year. And it is relatively flat where I live so not too much shifting even when riding. But my point of rarely charging the battery does contradict the number one screaming complaint of those against electronic/battery groupsets. And that is the battery will die frequently. The battery does not die. The battery lasts for a long, long time. Anyone with enough brain power to shift a bicycle, will not run out of battery power during a bicycle ride. Worrying about a Di2 battery dying is comparable to someone fretting and fussing about the battery on their Timex digital watch dying.
>>>>> You can have reasons not to choose Di2, but battery life can’t be one of them. I can only think of one reason and that is cost. This is based on my experience with three Di2 equiped bikes. The oldest and most abused Di2 equipped bike is 8 years old.
>>>> Unless you're competing in the Race Across America, you're not going to wear that battery down. It is so large compared to the current drain of the derailleurs that if it is 90% worn out it would still finish a spring classic.
>>>>
>>>> The new 12 speed wireless Di2 uses that same battery and the levers have small batteries that last a long time themselves. That was a GREAT idea of retaining the large battery wired to the derailleurs. I haven't bothered to look into it but I suppose that they moved the intelligence into the battery so that it no longer needs the charging unit that was mounted either under the stem or in the end of the bar.
>>>>
>>>> Why would you suppose that Russell would say that he has "zero discomfort" on his saddles?
>>>
>>> Because I have zero discomfort from my bicycle saddles? Seems somewhat easy to understand. To me and almost everyone else. I have never had any issues with finding comfortable saddles.
>>>
>>>
>>>> That is the major complaint of all cyclists with proper bike fit.
>>>
>>> Yes, I have heard that lots of people complain endlessly about how uncomfortable their saddle is. Not me. And for proper bike fit, seems to me if you have proper bike fit, your saddle would fit too. Right? If your reach and weight distribution and saddle comfort were perfect. But your saddle was 6 inches too low. Would you say they have proper bike fit?
>>>
>>>
>>>> Or maybe he uses one of those leather saddles that require 2 years to break in? And weigh more than my C50?
>>>
>>> Long, long, long ago, back when the dinosaurs and cro magnon man hunted wooly mammoths, I had an Ideale saddle. French perfection times ten. It had an aluminum undercarriage. And fit on a straight seatpost that necked down at the top. But eventually, after thirty years, the leather and rivets separated. I sadly retired it. I have six Brooks saddles on various bikes now. B17, Team Pro, Pro, Swift are the models. The Swift saddles have titanium rails. Lightweight. Google says it weighs 390 grams. Your Colnago C50 must be very light to be 14 ounces. Wow. No wonder Tommy can float up the hills and embarrass all the young racer boys with his speed. As for breaking in my leather saddles. No. They were completely comfortable the first time I put my weight upon them.
>>>
>>
>> I also rode an Idéale 90IR for many years (broken by an
>> ex-friend in a crash. Never loan your bicycle). You should
>> have used the Zeus Idéale post!
>>
>> https://www.ebykr.com/ideale-saddles-behind-leather-curtain/ebykr-ideale-saddle-zeus-seatpost-integrated/
>>
>> But I've never been comfortable on a Brooks. I'm surprised
>> you took to both shapes. I moved easily to Cinelli #5 and
>> Turbo.
>
> Perhaps you have one too but my favorite Bike shop in Bangkok has a
> sort of template thing that you sit on and depending on how large you
> are has a list of recommended saddles to fit you (:-)
>

On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 5:09:19 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 4/13/2022 9:31 PM, John B. wrote:
> > On Wed, 13 Apr 2022 20:58:04 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >
> >> On 4/13/2022 8:08 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >>> On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 5:38:03 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>> On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 1:59:42 PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> >>>>> On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 10:45:23 PM UTC+2, russell...@yahoo..com wrote:
> >>>>>> On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 7:08:23 AM UTC-5, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Tuesday, April 12, 2022 at 10:41:48 PM UTC+2, russell...@yahoo..com wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On Tuesday, April 12, 2022 at 9:03:45 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, April 12, 2022 at 5:48:18 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> On 4/11/2022 10:41 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, April 11, 2022 at 4:09:50 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Without a doubt, the Shimano Di2 is the finest shifting group there is. It over shifts and then self corrects so that you get fast shifts and quiet running there is no other choice for pro riders.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Actually, Tommy, Professional riders have three choices of bicycle components. Shimano, SRAM, and Campagnolo all make mechanical and electronic groupsets. All three brands are used in the professional peloton by teams. Despite what Shimano may wish, it is not "there is no other choice for pro riders." Despite your claims.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Not being familiar with the Campy EPS group I can only say that there are a LOT of EPS components for sale new and used. I hear good things about the SRAM E-tap group but have never personally tried it.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> But a normal sports rider doesn't need the additional maintenance of an electronic group.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Funny. I have owned Shimano Di2 7970 groupset since 2010. I have almost never ever adjusted it since installing it 12 years ago. I think that is pretty good. Once every three years I charge the battery. Not because it ever runs out, but more as a precautionary thing.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> The Campy Powershift Centaur group shifts slightly better than the SRAM group and the Campy Record Ultra Shift 11 speed is head and shoulders above the other manufacturers.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> SRAM has limited the number of shifts you can make and Shimano can slip out from under your hand while you're shifting large numbers of gears at once. Not to say that both SRAM and Shimano aren't good groups but that they do have a weakness that Campy doesn't have in manual groups.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> So there is very little choice in the manual shifting groups starting with the 11 speed groups.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> There are three choices amongst the groups. SRAM, Shimano, Campagnolo. That seems like enough choices to me. It is less choice than picking out a woman based on hair color. Black, brown, blonde, red hair color choices. But 3 or 4 choices is pretty close, so I would call them about the same.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> It is also nice that both Shimano SRAM and Campy 11 speed wheels are interchangeable. Shimano wheels and cassettes are so much easier and cheaper to get in high quality wheels that you have a very large choice and thereby cheaper high quality.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> As for other components of the groups - I don't like that Hertz connection on the Campy Ultra Torque cranks but they are head and shoulders above the Shimano hollow aluminum cranks which I have broken a Dura Ace set or the SRAM with has silly different size bearings on the drive side than on the off-side. They are also a pain in the butt to get the preload correct. The FSA SLK carbon cranks are better than SRAM or Shimano in my opinion. One problem however is that the 30 mm axle gets in the way of the electronic wires if you're using an electronic group or the screw that holds on the under BB plastic wire guide if you're using manual shifting. It also makes it nearly impossible to use internal manual shift wiring though it is possible with great care.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> I cannot tell any advantage with direct mount rim brakes other than it is easier to keep them from dragging. I simply do not like disk brakes after using them on half a dozen bikes. Campy Record standard mount rim brakes work very well and can be set up to operate properly without moving. The older Campy dual axle brakes worked very well. The Dura Ace brakes I've used move about somewhat and you have to readjust them once in awhile to keep your brake levers from pulling the wheel over to one side.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> My experience with saddles is that padding makes them more comfortable for the first 10 miles or so and then progressively more painful.. Hard carbon saddle seem to retain the same level of discomfort from beginning to end and is preferable for me.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> I am very happy to say I have ZERO discomfort amongst all the saddles on my bikes. It is mystifying to me that someone would choose to ride a bike with saddle discomfort. But that is Tommy I guess.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Deep aero wheels are not good for sports riders. We don't ride at a high enough average to gain anything from them and they are dangerous in crosswinds. Just yesterday I was crossing a bridge in high gusty winds and nearly got shoved into the steel side bars of the bridge path. My CT Swiss and Bontrager wheels do not do that. Or at least not to that extent.
> >>>>>>>>>> Celebrate diversity!
> >>>>>>>>>> https://i.pinimg.com/originals/30/46/82/3046823e11ec3ddc9bac5bfe7c25a797.jpg
> >>>>>>>>> One of the diversities appears to be that Russell doesn't ride a bike. He can't understand English, and aside from the fact that he has to force himself to misunderstand my postings so that he can criticize what I say, he continues to make an almost unbelievable ass out of himself.
> >>>>>>>> Well, I suppose it is better to be an almost unbelievable ass, than you Tommy, who is a very believable ass.
> >>>>>>>>> Imagine someone who has never used electronic groups telling someone all about them?
> >>>>>>>> I own a carbon Ridley frame with Shimano Di2 7970 groupset. Bought the group back in spring 2010. When Di2 was first introduced. I find it very humorous reading about all the experts waxing and waning about Di2 when they have only been using it for a few years. And yipping and yapping about 11 or even 12 speed electronic components. Rookies. Little children. I've had Di2 since it originated. With 10 speed. I've used it twice as long as all the others. I was shifting Di2 when they were still suckling their momma's teats.
> >>>>>>> Well if you have to charge the battery every three years then you don't ride much on that bike. ;-)
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Lou
> >>>>>> OK. I will admit it does not get a lot of use. 1000-2000 miles of riding per year. And it is relatively flat where I live so not too much shifting even when riding. But my point of rarely charging the battery does contradict the number one screaming complaint of those against electronic/battery groupsets. And that is the battery will die frequently. The battery does not die. The battery lasts for a long, long time. Anyone with enough brain power to shift a bicycle, will not run out of battery power during a bicycle ride. Worrying about a Di2 battery dying is comparable to someone fretting and fussing about the battery on their Timex digital watch dying.
> >>>>> You can have reasons not to choose Di2, but battery life can’t be one of them. I can only think of one reason and that is cost. This is based on my experience with three Di2 equiped bikes. The oldest and most abused Di2 equipped bike is 8 years old.
> >>>> Unless you're competing in the Race Across America, you're not going to wear that battery down. It is so large compared to the current drain of the derailleurs that if it is 90% worn out it would still finish a spring classic.
> >>>>
> >>>> The new 12 speed wireless Di2 uses that same battery and the levers have small batteries that last a long time themselves. That was a GREAT idea of retaining the large battery wired to the derailleurs. I haven't bothered to look into it but I suppose that they moved the intelligence into the battery so that it no longer needs the charging unit that was mounted either under the stem or in the end of the bar.
> >>>>
> >>>> Why would you suppose that Russell would say that he has "zero discomfort" on his saddles?
> >>>
> >>> Because I have zero discomfort from my bicycle saddles? Seems somewhat easy to understand. To me and almost everyone else. I have never had any issues with finding comfortable saddles.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> That is the major complaint of all cyclists with proper bike fit.
> >>>
> >>> Yes, I have heard that lots of people complain endlessly about how uncomfortable their saddle is. Not me. And for proper bike fit, seems to me if you have proper bike fit, your saddle would fit too. Right? If your reach and weight distribution and saddle comfort were perfect. But your saddle was 6 inches too low. Would you say they have proper bike fit?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Or maybe he uses one of those leather saddles that require 2 years to break in? And weigh more than my C50?
> >>>
> >>> Long, long, long ago, back when the dinosaurs and cro magnon man hunted wooly mammoths, I had an Ideale saddle. French perfection times ten. It had an aluminum undercarriage. And fit on a straight seatpost that necked down at the top. But eventually, after thirty years, the leather and rivets separated. I sadly retired it. I have six Brooks saddles on various bikes now. B17, Team Pro, Pro, Swift are the models. The Swift saddles have titanium rails. Lightweight. Google says it weighs 390 grams. Your Colnago C50 must be very light to be 14 ounces. Wow. No wonder Tommy can float up the hills and embarrass all the young racer boys with his speed. As for breaking in my leather saddles. No. They were completely comfortable the first time I put my weight upon them.
> >>>
> >>
> >> I also rode an Idéale 90IR for many years (broken by an
> >> ex-friend in a crash. Never loan your bicycle). You should
> >> have used the Zeus Idéale post!
> >>
> >> https://www.ebykr.com/ideale-saddles-behind-leather-curtain/ebykr-ideale-saddle-zeus-seatpost-integrated/
> >>
> >> But I've never been comfortable on a Brooks. I'm surprised
> >> you took to both shapes. I moved easily to Cinelli #5 and
> >> Turbo.
> >
> > Perhaps you have one too but my favorite Bike shop in Bangkok has a
> > sort of template thing that you sit on and depending on how large you
> > are has a list of recommended saddles to fit you (:-)
> >
> I've seen those but humans are dynamic, not static. Nothing
> wrong with an approximation but those systems are not
> definitive.
>
> For me, Idéale are narrower across the center than Brooks
> shapes and that difference mattered to me.

On 4/14/2022 8:55 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 5:09:19 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 4/13/2022 9:31 PM, John B. wrote:
>>> On Wed, 13 Apr 2022 20:58:04 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 4/13/2022 8:08 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>> On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 5:38:03 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>> On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 1:59:42 PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>>>>> On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 10:45:23 PM UTC+2, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 7:08:23 AM UTC-5, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, April 12, 2022 at 10:41:48 PM UTC+2, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, April 12, 2022 at 9:03:45 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, April 12, 2022 at 5:48:18 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/11/2022 10:41 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, April 11, 2022 at 4:09:50 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Without a doubt, the Shimano Di2 is the finest shifting group there is. It over shifts and then self corrects so that you get fast shifts and quiet running there is no other choice for pro riders.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Actually, Tommy, Professional riders have three choices of bicycle components. Shimano, SRAM, and Campagnolo all make mechanical and electronic groupsets. All three brands are used in the professional peloton by teams. Despite what Shimano may wish, it is not "there is no other choice for pro riders." Despite your claims.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Not being familiar with the Campy EPS group I can only say that there are a LOT of EPS components for sale new and used. I hear good things about the SRAM E-tap group but have never personally tried it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But a normal sports rider doesn't need the additional maintenance of an electronic group.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Funny. I have owned Shimano Di2 7970 groupset since 2010. I have almost never ever adjusted it since installing it 12 years ago. I think that is pretty good. Once every three years I charge the battery. Not because it ever runs out, but more as a precautionary thing.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The Campy Powershift Centaur group shifts slightly better than the SRAM group and the Campy Record Ultra Shift 11 speed is head and shoulders above the other manufacturers.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SRAM has limited the number of shifts you can make and Shimano can slip out from under your hand while you're shifting large numbers of gears at once. Not to say that both SRAM and Shimano aren't good groups but that they do have a weakness that Campy doesn't have in manual groups.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So there is very little choice in the manual shifting groups starting with the 11 speed groups.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> There are three choices amongst the groups. SRAM, Shimano, Campagnolo. That seems like enough choices to me. It is less choice than picking out a woman based on hair color. Black, brown, blonde, red hair color choices. But 3 or 4 choices is pretty close, so I would call them about the same.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is also nice that both Shimano SRAM and Campy 11 speed wheels are interchangeable. Shimano wheels and cassettes are so much easier and cheaper to get in high quality wheels that you have a very large choice and thereby cheaper high quality.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As for other components of the groups - I don't like that Hertz connection on the Campy Ultra Torque cranks but they are head and shoulders above the Shimano hollow aluminum cranks which I have broken a Dura Ace set or the SRAM with has silly different size bearings on the drive side than on the off-side. They are also a pain in the butt to get the preload correct. The FSA SLK carbon cranks are better than SRAM or Shimano in my opinion. One problem however is that the 30 mm axle gets in the way of the electronic wires if you're using an electronic group or the screw that holds on the under BB plastic wire guide if you're using manual shifting. It also makes it nearly impossible to use internal manual shift wiring though it is possible with great care.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I cannot tell any advantage with direct mount rim brakes other than it is easier to keep them from dragging. I simply do not like disk brakes after using them on half a dozen bikes. Campy Record standard mount rim brakes work very well and can be set up to operate properly without moving. The older Campy dual axle brakes worked very well. The Dura Ace brakes I've used move about somewhat and you have to readjust them once in awhile to keep your brake levers from pulling the wheel over to one side.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My experience with saddles is that padding makes them more comfortable for the first 10 miles or so and then progressively more painful. Hard carbon saddle seem to retain the same level of discomfort from beginning to end and is preferable for me.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am very happy to say I have ZERO discomfort amongst all the saddles on my bikes. It is mystifying to me that someone would choose to ride a bike with saddle discomfort. But that is Tommy I guess.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Deep aero wheels are not good for sports riders. We don't ride at a high enough average to gain anything from them and they are dangerous in crosswinds. Just yesterday I was crossing a bridge in high gusty winds and nearly got shoved into the steel side bars of the bridge path. My CT Swiss and Bontrager wheels do not do that. Or at least not to that extent.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Celebrate diversity!
>>>>>>>>>>>> https://i.pinimg.com/originals/30/46/82/3046823e11ec3ddc9bac5bfe7c25a797.jpg
>>>>>>>>>>> One of the diversities appears to be that Russell doesn't ride a bike. He can't understand English, and aside from the fact that he has to force himself to misunderstand my postings so that he can criticize what I say, he continues to make an almost unbelievable ass out of himself.
>>>>>>>>>> Well, I suppose it is better to be an almost unbelievable ass, than you Tommy, who is a very believable ass.
>>>>>>>>>>> Imagine someone who has never used electronic groups telling someone all about them?
>>>>>>>>>> I own a carbon Ridley frame with Shimano Di2 7970 groupset. Bought the group back in spring 2010. When Di2 was first introduced. I find it very humorous reading about all the experts waxing and waning about Di2 when they have only been using it for a few years. And yipping and yapping about 11 or even 12 speed electronic components. Rookies. Little children. I've had Di2 since it originated. With 10 speed. I've used it twice as long as all the others. I was shifting Di2 when they were still suckling their momma's teats.
>>>>>>>>> Well if you have to charge the battery every three years then you don't ride much on that bike. ;-)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Lou
>>>>>>>> OK. I will admit it does not get a lot of use. 1000-2000 miles of riding per year. And it is relatively flat where I live so not too much shifting even when riding. But my point of rarely charging the battery does contradict the number one screaming complaint of those against electronic/battery groupsets. And that is the battery will die frequently. The battery does not die. The battery lasts for a long, long time. Anyone with enough brain power to shift a bicycle, will not run out of battery power during a bicycle ride. Worrying about a Di2 battery dying is comparable to someone fretting and fussing about the battery on their Timex digital watch dying.
>>>>>>> You can have reasons not to choose Di2, but battery life can’t be one of them. I can only think of one reason and that is cost. This is based on my experience with three Di2 equiped bikes. The oldest and most abused Di2 equipped bike is 8 years old.
>>>>>> Unless you're competing in the Race Across America, you're not going to wear that battery down. It is so large compared to the current drain of the derailleurs that if it is 90% worn out it would still finish a spring classic.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The new 12 speed wireless Di2 uses that same battery and the levers have small batteries that last a long time themselves. That was a GREAT idea of retaining the large battery wired to the derailleurs. I haven't bothered to look into it but I suppose that they moved the intelligence into the battery so that it no longer needs the charging unit that was mounted either under the stem or in the end of the bar.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why would you suppose that Russell would say that he has "zero discomfort" on his saddles?
>>>>>
>>>>> Because I have zero discomfort from my bicycle saddles? Seems somewhat easy to understand. To me and almost everyone else. I have never had any issues with finding comfortable saddles.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> That is the major complaint of all cyclists with proper bike fit.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, I have heard that lots of people complain endlessly about how uncomfortable their saddle is. Not me. And for proper bike fit, seems to me if you have proper bike fit, your saddle would fit too. Right? If your reach and weight distribution and saddle comfort were perfect. But your saddle was 6 inches too low. Would you say they have proper bike fit?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Or maybe he uses one of those leather saddles that require 2 years to break in? And weigh more than my C50?
>>>>>
>>>>> Long, long, long ago, back when the dinosaurs and cro magnon man hunted wooly mammoths, I had an Ideale saddle. French perfection times ten. It had an aluminum undercarriage. And fit on a straight seatpost that necked down at the top. But eventually, after thirty years, the leather and rivets separated. I sadly retired it. I have six Brooks saddles on various bikes now. B17, Team Pro, Pro, Swift are the models. The Swift saddles have titanium rails. Lightweight. Google says it weighs 390 grams. Your Colnago C50 must be very light to be 14 ounces. Wow. No wonder Tommy can float up the hills and embarrass all the young racer boys with his speed. As for breaking in my leather saddles. No. They were completely comfortable the first time I put my weight upon them.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I also rode an Idéale 90IR for many years (broken by an
>>>> ex-friend in a crash. Never loan your bicycle). You should
>>>> have used the Zeus Idéale post!
>>>>
>>>> https://www.ebykr.com/ideale-saddles-behind-leather-curtain/ebykr-ideale-saddle-zeus-seatpost-integrated/
>>>>
>>>> But I've never been comfortable on a Brooks. I'm surprised
>>>> you took to both shapes. I moved easily to Cinelli #5 and
>>>> Turbo.
>>>
>>> Perhaps you have one too but my favorite Bike shop in Bangkok has a
>>> sort of template thing that you sit on and depending on how large you
>>> are has a list of recommended saddles to fit you (:-)
>>>
>> I've seen those but humans are dynamic, not static. Nothing
>> wrong with an approximation but those systems are not
>> definitive.
>>
>> For me, Idéale are narrower across the center than Brooks
>> shapes and that difference mattered to me.
>
> Now you have to consider what Russell has said - he charges his Di2 every three years and he is not uncomfortable on a saddle that alone weighs as much as my entire frameset. And he races. Now put all of those together to judge exactly what his opinions or even his truth is worth.
>

On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 8:16:48 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 4/14/2022 8:55 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 5:09:19 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >> On 4/13/2022 9:31 PM, John B. wrote:
> >>> On Wed, 13 Apr 2022 20:58:04 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On 4/13/2022 8:08 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >>>>> On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 5:38:03 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>>>> On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 1:59:42 PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 10:45:23 PM UTC+2, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 7:08:23 AM UTC-5, lou.h...@gmail..com wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, April 12, 2022 at 10:41:48 PM UTC+2, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, April 12, 2022 at 9:03:45 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, April 12, 2022 at 5:48:18 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/11/2022 10:41 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, April 11, 2022 at 4:09:50 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Without a doubt, the Shimano Di2 is the finest shifting group there is. It over shifts and then self corrects so that you get fast shifts and quiet running there is no other choice for pro riders.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Actually, Tommy, Professional riders have three choices of bicycle components. Shimano, SRAM, and Campagnolo all make mechanical and electronic groupsets. All three brands are used in the professional peloton by teams. Despite what Shimano may wish, it is not "there is no other choice for pro riders." Despite your claims.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Not being familiar with the Campy EPS group I can only say that there are a LOT of EPS components for sale new and used. I hear good things about the SRAM E-tap group but have never personally tried it.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> But a normal sports rider doesn't need the additional maintenance of an electronic group.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Funny. I have owned Shimano Di2 7970 groupset since 2010. I have almost never ever adjusted it since installing it 12 years ago. I think that is pretty good. Once every three years I charge the battery. Not because it ever runs out, but more as a precautionary thing.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The Campy Powershift Centaur group shifts slightly better than the SRAM group and the Campy Record Ultra Shift 11 speed is head and shoulders above the other manufacturers.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> SRAM has limited the number of shifts you can make and Shimano can slip out from under your hand while you're shifting large numbers of gears at once. Not to say that both SRAM and Shimano aren't good groups but that they do have a weakness that Campy doesn't have in manual groups.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> So there is very little choice in the manual shifting groups starting with the 11 speed groups.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> There are three choices amongst the groups. SRAM, Shimano, Campagnolo. That seems like enough choices to me. It is less choice than picking out a woman based on hair color. Black, brown, blonde, red hair color choices. But 3 or 4 choices is pretty close, so I would call them about the same.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is also nice that both Shimano SRAM and Campy 11 speed wheels are interchangeable. Shimano wheels and cassettes are so much easier and cheaper to get in high quality wheels that you have a very large choice and thereby cheaper high quality.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> As for other components of the groups - I don't like that Hertz connection on the Campy Ultra Torque cranks but they are head and shoulders above the Shimano hollow aluminum cranks which I have broken a Dura Ace set or the SRAM with has silly different size bearings on the drive side than on the off-side. They are also a pain in the butt to get the preload correct. The FSA SLK carbon cranks are better than SRAM or Shimano in my opinion. One problem however is that the 30 mm axle gets in the way of the electronic wires if you're using an electronic group or the screw that holds on the under BB plastic wire guide if you're using manual shifting. It also makes it nearly impossible to use internal manual shift wiring though it is possible with great care.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I cannot tell any advantage with direct mount rim brakes other than it is easier to keep them from dragging. I simply do not like disk brakes after using them on half a dozen bikes. Campy Record standard mount rim brakes work very well and can be set up to operate properly without moving. The older Campy dual axle brakes worked very well. The Dura Ace brakes I've used move about somewhat and you have to readjust them once in awhile to keep your brake levers from pulling the wheel over to one side.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> My experience with saddles is that padding makes them more comfortable for the first 10 miles or so and then progressively more painful. Hard carbon saddle seem to retain the same level of discomfort from beginning to end and is preferable for me.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I am very happy to say I have ZERO discomfort amongst all the saddles on my bikes. It is mystifying to me that someone would choose to ride a bike with saddle discomfort. But that is Tommy I guess.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Deep aero wheels are not good for sports riders. We don't ride at a high enough average to gain anything from them and they are dangerous in crosswinds. Just yesterday I was crossing a bridge in high gusty winds and nearly got shoved into the steel side bars of the bridge path. My CT Swiss and Bontrager wheels do not do that. Or at least not to that extent..
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Celebrate diversity!
> >>>>>>>>>>>> https://i.pinimg.com/originals/30/46/82/3046823e11ec3ddc9bac5bfe7c25a797.jpg
> >>>>>>>>>>> One of the diversities appears to be that Russell doesn't ride a bike. He can't understand English, and aside from the fact that he has to force himself to misunderstand my postings so that he can criticize what I say, he continues to make an almost unbelievable ass out of himself.
> >>>>>>>>>> Well, I suppose it is better to be an almost unbelievable ass, than you Tommy, who is a very believable ass.
> >>>>>>>>>>> Imagine someone who has never used electronic groups telling someone all about them?
> >>>>>>>>>> I own a carbon Ridley frame with Shimano Di2 7970 groupset. Bought the group back in spring 2010. When Di2 was first introduced. I find it very humorous reading about all the experts waxing and waning about Di2 when they have only been using it for a few years. And yipping and yapping about 11 or even 12 speed electronic components. Rookies. Little children. I've had Di2 since it originated. With 10 speed. I've used it twice as long as all the others. I was shifting Di2 when they were still suckling their momma's teats.
> >>>>>>>>> Well if you have to charge the battery every three years then you don't ride much on that bike. ;-)
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Lou
> >>>>>>>> OK. I will admit it does not get a lot of use. 1000-2000 miles of riding per year. And it is relatively flat where I live so not too much shifting even when riding. But my point of rarely charging the battery does contradict the number one screaming complaint of those against electronic/battery groupsets. And that is the battery will die frequently. The battery does not die. The battery lasts for a long, long time. Anyone with enough brain power to shift a bicycle, will not run out of battery power during a bicycle ride. Worrying about a Di2 battery dying is comparable to someone fretting and fussing about the battery on their Timex digital watch dying.
> >>>>>>> You can have reasons not to choose Di2, but battery life can’t be one of them. I can only think of one reason and that is cost. This is based on my experience with three Di2 equiped bikes. The oldest and most abused Di2 equipped bike is 8 years old.
> >>>>>> Unless you're competing in the Race Across America, you're not going to wear that battery down. It is so large compared to the current drain of the derailleurs that if it is 90% worn out it would still finish a spring classic.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> The new 12 speed wireless Di2 uses that same battery and the levers have small batteries that last a long time themselves. That was a GREAT idea of retaining the large battery wired to the derailleurs. I haven't bothered to look into it but I suppose that they moved the intelligence into the battery so that it no longer needs the charging unit that was mounted either under the stem or in the end of the bar.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Why would you suppose that Russell would say that he has "zero discomfort" on his saddles?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Because I have zero discomfort from my bicycle saddles? Seems somewhat easy to understand. To me and almost everyone else. I have never had any issues with finding comfortable saddles.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> That is the major complaint of all cyclists with proper bike fit.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Yes, I have heard that lots of people complain endlessly about how uncomfortable their saddle is. Not me. And for proper bike fit, seems to me if you have proper bike fit, your saddle would fit too. Right? If your reach and weight distribution and saddle comfort were perfect. But your saddle was 6 inches too low. Would you say they have proper bike fit?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Or maybe he uses one of those leather saddles that require 2 years to break in? And weigh more than my C50?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Long, long, long ago, back when the dinosaurs and cro magnon man hunted wooly mammoths, I had an Ideale saddle. French perfection times ten. It had an aluminum undercarriage. And fit on a straight seatpost that necked down at the top. But eventually, after thirty years, the leather and rivets separated. I sadly retired it. I have six Brooks saddles on various bikes now. B17, Team Pro, Pro, Swift are the models. The Swift saddles have titanium rails. Lightweight. Google says it weighs 390 grams. Your Colnago C50 must be very light to be 14 ounces. Wow. No wonder Tommy can float up the hills and embarrass all the young racer boys with his speed. As for breaking in my leather saddles. No. They were completely comfortable the first time I put my weight upon them.
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> I also rode an Idéale 90IR for many years (broken by an
> >>>> ex-friend in a crash. Never loan your bicycle). You should
> >>>> have used the Zeus Idéale post!
> >>>>
> >>>> https://www.ebykr.com/ideale-saddles-behind-leather-curtain/ebykr-ideale-saddle-zeus-seatpost-integrated/
> >>>>
> >>>> But I've never been comfortable on a Brooks. I'm surprised
> >>>> you took to both shapes. I moved easily to Cinelli #5 and
> >>>> Turbo.
> >>>
> >>> Perhaps you have one too but my favorite Bike shop in Bangkok has a
> >>> sort of template thing that you sit on and depending on how large you
> >>> are has a list of recommended saddles to fit you (:-)
> >>>
> >> I've seen those but humans are dynamic, not static. Nothing
> >> wrong with an approximation but those systems are not
> >> definitive.
> >>
> >> For me, Idéale are narrower across the center than Brooks
> >> shapes and that difference mattered to me.
> >
> > Now you have to consider what Russell has said - he charges his Di2 every three years and he is not uncomfortable on a saddle that alone weighs as much as my entire frameset. And he races. Now put all of those together to judge exactly what his opinions or even his truth is worth.
> >
> meh.
>
> I'm not parochial about cycling. Not even ecumenical -I'm
> fully agnostic in that I believe any cycling by anyone is a
> good thing.
>
> As always, YMMV

On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 8:55:35 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 5:09:19 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > On 4/13/2022 9:31 PM, John B. wrote:
> > > On Wed, 13 Apr 2022 20:58:04 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> > >
> > >> On 4/13/2022 8:08 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > >>> On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 5:38:03 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >>>> On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 1:59:42 PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > >>>>> On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 10:45:23 PM UTC+2, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > >>>>>> On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 7:08:23 AM UTC-5, lou.h...@gmail..com wrote:
> > >>>>>>> On Tuesday, April 12, 2022 at 10:41:48 PM UTC+2, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > >>>>>>>> On Tuesday, April 12, 2022 at 9:03:45 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, April 12, 2022 at 5:48:18 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>> On 4/11/2022 10:41 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, April 11, 2022 at 4:09:50 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Without a doubt, the Shimano Di2 is the finest shifting group there is. It over shifts and then self corrects so that you get fast shifts and quiet running there is no other choice for pro riders.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Actually, Tommy, Professional riders have three choices of bicycle components. Shimano, SRAM, and Campagnolo all make mechanical and electronic groupsets. All three brands are used in the professional peloton by teams. Despite what Shimano may wish, it is not "there is no other choice for pro riders." Despite your claims.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Not being familiar with the Campy EPS group I can only say that there are a LOT of EPS components for sale new and used. I hear good things about the SRAM E-tap group but have never personally tried it.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> But a normal sports rider doesn't need the additional maintenance of an electronic group.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Funny. I have owned Shimano Di2 7970 groupset since 2010. I have almost never ever adjusted it since installing it 12 years ago. I think that is pretty good. Once every three years I charge the battery. Not because it ever runs out, but more as a precautionary thing.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> The Campy Powershift Centaur group shifts slightly better than the SRAM group and the Campy Record Ultra Shift 11 speed is head and shoulders above the other manufacturers.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> SRAM has limited the number of shifts you can make and Shimano can slip out from under your hand while you're shifting large numbers of gears at once. Not to say that both SRAM and Shimano aren't good groups but that they do have a weakness that Campy doesn't have in manual groups.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> So there is very little choice in the manual shifting groups starting with the 11 speed groups.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> There are three choices amongst the groups. SRAM, Shimano, Campagnolo. That seems like enough choices to me. It is less choice than picking out a woman based on hair color. Black, brown, blonde, red hair color choices. But 3 or 4 choices is pretty close, so I would call them about the same.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> It is also nice that both Shimano SRAM and Campy 11 speed wheels are interchangeable. Shimano wheels and cassettes are so much easier and cheaper to get in high quality wheels that you have a very large choice and thereby cheaper high quality.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> As for other components of the groups - I don't like that Hertz connection on the Campy Ultra Torque cranks but they are head and shoulders above the Shimano hollow aluminum cranks which I have broken a Dura Ace set or the SRAM with has silly different size bearings on the drive side than on the off-side. They are also a pain in the butt to get the preload correct. The FSA SLK carbon cranks are better than SRAM or Shimano in my opinion. One problem however is that the 30 mm axle gets in the way of the electronic wires if you're using an electronic group or the screw that holds on the under BB plastic wire guide if you're using manual shifting. It also makes it nearly impossible to use internal manual shift wiring though it is possible with great care.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> I cannot tell any advantage with direct mount rim brakes other than it is easier to keep them from dragging. I simply do not like disk brakes after using them on half a dozen bikes. Campy Record standard mount rim brakes work very well and can be set up to operate properly without moving. The older Campy dual axle brakes worked very well. The Dura Ace brakes I've used move about somewhat and you have to readjust them once in awhile to keep your brake levers from pulling the wheel over to one side.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> My experience with saddles is that padding makes them more comfortable for the first 10 miles or so and then progressively more painful. Hard carbon saddle seem to retain the same level of discomfort from beginning to end and is preferable for me.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> I am very happy to say I have ZERO discomfort amongst all the saddles on my bikes. It is mystifying to me that someone would choose to ride a bike with saddle discomfort. But that is Tommy I guess.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Deep aero wheels are not good for sports riders. We don't ride at a high enough average to gain anything from them and they are dangerous in crosswinds. Just yesterday I was crossing a bridge in high gusty winds and nearly got shoved into the steel side bars of the bridge path. My CT Swiss and Bontrager wheels do not do that. Or at least not to that extent..
> > >>>>>>>>>> Celebrate diversity!
> > >>>>>>>>>> https://i.pinimg.com/originals/30/46/82/3046823e11ec3ddc9bac5bfe7c25a797.jpg
> > >>>>>>>>> One of the diversities appears to be that Russell doesn't ride a bike. He can't understand English, and aside from the fact that he has to force himself to misunderstand my postings so that he can criticize what I say, he continues to make an almost unbelievable ass out of himself.
> > >>>>>>>> Well, I suppose it is better to be an almost unbelievable ass, than you Tommy, who is a very believable ass.
> > >>>>>>>>> Imagine someone who has never used electronic groups telling someone all about them?
> > >>>>>>>> I own a carbon Ridley frame with Shimano Di2 7970 groupset. Bought the group back in spring 2010. When Di2 was first introduced. I find it very humorous reading about all the experts waxing and waning about Di2 when they have only been using it for a few years. And yipping and yapping about 11 or even 12 speed electronic components. Rookies. Little children. I've had Di2 since it originated. With 10 speed. I've used it twice as long as all the others. I was shifting Di2 when they were still suckling their momma's teats.
> > >>>>>>> Well if you have to charge the battery every three years then you don't ride much on that bike. ;-)
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Lou
> > >>>>>> OK. I will admit it does not get a lot of use. 1000-2000 miles of riding per year. And it is relatively flat where I live so not too much shifting even when riding. But my point of rarely charging the battery does contradict the number one screaming complaint of those against electronic/battery groupsets. And that is the battery will die frequently. The battery does not die. The battery lasts for a long, long time. Anyone with enough brain power to shift a bicycle, will not run out of battery power during a bicycle ride. Worrying about a Di2 battery dying is comparable to someone fretting and fussing about the battery on their Timex digital watch dying.
> > >>>>> You can have reasons not to choose Di2, but battery life can’t be one of them. I can only think of one reason and that is cost. This is based on my experience with three Di2 equiped bikes. The oldest and most abused Di2 equipped bike is 8 years old.
> > >>>> Unless you're competing in the Race Across America, you're not going to wear that battery down. It is so large compared to the current drain of the derailleurs that if it is 90% worn out it would still finish a spring classic.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> The new 12 speed wireless Di2 uses that same battery and the levers have small batteries that last a long time themselves. That was a GREAT idea of retaining the large battery wired to the derailleurs. I haven't bothered to look into it but I suppose that they moved the intelligence into the battery so that it no longer needs the charging unit that was mounted either under the stem or in the end of the bar.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Why would you suppose that Russell would say that he has "zero discomfort" on his saddles?
> > >>>
> > >>> Because I have zero discomfort from my bicycle saddles? Seems somewhat easy to understand. To me and almost everyone else. I have never had any issues with finding comfortable saddles.
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>> That is the major complaint of all cyclists with proper bike fit.
> > >>>
> > >>> Yes, I have heard that lots of people complain endlessly about how uncomfortable their saddle is. Not me. And for proper bike fit, seems to me if you have proper bike fit, your saddle would fit too. Right? If your reach and weight distribution and saddle comfort were perfect. But your saddle was 6 inches too low. Would you say they have proper bike fit?
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>> Or maybe he uses one of those leather saddles that require 2 years to break in? And weigh more than my C50?
> > >>>
> > >>> Long, long, long ago, back when the dinosaurs and cro magnon man hunted wooly mammoths, I had an Ideale saddle. French perfection times ten. It had an aluminum undercarriage. And fit on a straight seatpost that necked down at the top. But eventually, after thirty years, the leather and rivets separated. I sadly retired it. I have six Brooks saddles on various bikes now. B17, Team Pro, Pro, Swift are the models. The Swift saddles have titanium rails. Lightweight. Google says it weighs 390 grams. Your Colnago C50 must be very light to be 14 ounces. Wow. No wonder Tommy can float up the hills and embarrass all the young racer boys with his speed. As for breaking in my leather saddles. No. They were completely comfortable the first time I put my weight upon them.
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >> I also rode an Idéale 90IR for many years (broken by an
> > >> ex-friend in a crash. Never loan your bicycle). You should
> > >> have used the Zeus Idéale post!
> > >>
> > >> https://www.ebykr.com/ideale-saddles-behind-leather-curtain/ebykr-ideale-saddle-zeus-seatpost-integrated/
> > >>
> > >> But I've never been comfortable on a Brooks. I'm surprised
> > >> you took to both shapes. I moved easily to Cinelli #5 and
> > >> Turbo.
> > >
> > > Perhaps you have one too but my favorite Bike shop in Bangkok has a
> > > sort of template thing that you sit on and depending on how large you
> > > are has a list of recommended saddles to fit you (:-)
> > >
> > I've seen those but humans are dynamic, not static. Nothing
> > wrong with an approximation but those systems are not
> > definitive.
> >
> > For me, Idéale are narrower across the center than Brooks
> > shapes and that difference mattered to me.
> Now you have to consider what Russell has said - he charges his Di2 every three years and he is not uncomfortable on a saddle that alone weighs as much as my entire frameset. And he races. Now put all of those together to judge exactly what his opinions or even his truth is worth.