Rocksolid Light

Welcome to novaBBS (click a section below)

mail  files  register  newsreader  groups  login

Message-ID:  

Man will never fly. Space travel is merely a dream. All aspirin is alike.


tech / rec.bicycles.tech / "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."

SubjectAuthor
* "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."Frank Krygowski
+* Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."AMuzi
|`* Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."Tom Kunich
| `* Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."AMuzi
|  +* Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."Tom Kunich
|  |`* Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."AMuzi
|  | +* Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."Tom Kunich
|  | |`* Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."AMuzi
|  | | +* Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."Tom Kunich
|  | | |+* Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."AMuzi
|  | | ||`* Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."Tom Kunich
|  | | || `* Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."Frank Krygowski
|  | | ||  `- Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."John B.
|  | | |+* Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."AMuzi
|  | | ||`- Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."Tom Kunich
|  | | |+- Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."John B.
|  | | |`- Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."Frank Krygowski
|  | | +* Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."Tom Kunich
|  | | |+* Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."russellseaton1@yahoo.com
|  | | ||`- Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."John B.
|  | | |+- Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."John B.
|  | | |`* Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."Jeff Liebermann
|  | | | `* Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."Sir Ridesalot
|  | | |  +- Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."Jeff Liebermann
|  | | |  `* Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."Tom Kunich
|  | | |   `* Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."John B.
|  | | |    `* Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."Jeff Liebermann
|  | | |     +* Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."John B.
|  | | |     |+- Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."Jeff Liebermann
|  | | |     |`* Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."AMuzi
|  | | |     | `* Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."John B.
|  | | |     |  `* Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."russellseaton1@yahoo.com
|  | | |     |   `- Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."John B.
|  | | |     `* Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."AMuzi
|  | | |      +* Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."Tom Kunich
|  | | |      |`* Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."John B.
|  | | |      | `* Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."russellseaton1@yahoo.com
|  | | |      |  `- Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."John B.
|  | | |      `* Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."russellseaton1@yahoo.com
|  | | |       +* Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."AMuzi
|  | | |       |+* Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."russellseaton1@yahoo.com
|  | | |       ||`* Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strengthRolf Mantel
|  | | |       || `* Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."Sir Ridesalot
|  | | |       ||  +- Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."Tom Kunich
|  | | |       ||  +* Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."Jeff Liebermann
|  | | |       ||  |`- Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."AMuzi
|  | | |       ||  `- Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."John B.
|  | | |       |`* Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."Tom Kunich
|  | | |       | `* Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."russellseaton1@yahoo.com
|  | | |       |  `* Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."John B.
|  | | |       |   `* Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."russellseaton1@yahoo.com
|  | | |       |    `- Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."John B.
|  | | |       `* Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strengthRolf Mantel
|  | | |        +- Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."AMuzi
|  | | |        `* Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."Tom Kunich
|  | | |         `* Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strengthRolf Mantel
|  | | |          `- Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."Tom Kunich
|  | | `- Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."John B.
|  | `- Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strengthFrank Krygowski
|  `- Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."John B.
+* Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strengthRoger Merriman
|`* Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."Tom Kunich
| `- Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strengthRoger Merriman
+* Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."Jeff Liebermann
|+* Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."AMuzi
||`- Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strengthFrank Krygowski
|+* Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strengthFrank Krygowski
||`- Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."John B.
|+- Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."John B.
|`* Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."russellseaton1@yahoo.com
| `- Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."Jeff Liebermann
+- Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."John B.
+* Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."James Carrington
|`- Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."Tom Kunich
`* Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."Lou Holtman
 +* Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."Tom Kunich
 |+* Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."John B.
 ||`* Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."AMuzi
 || +- Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."John B.
 || `* Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."Tom Kunich
 ||  `* Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."John B.
 ||   `* Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."AMuzi
 ||    +- Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."John B.
 ||    +* Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."Tom Kunich
 ||    |+* Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."AMuzi
 ||    ||+* Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."Tom Kunich
 ||    |||`* Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strengthFrank Krygowski
 ||    ||| `- Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."John B.
 ||    ||`* Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."Tom Kunich
 ||    || +- Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strengthFrank Krygowski
 ||    || +* Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."John B.
 ||    || |`- Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."funkma...@hotmail.com
 ||    || +- Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."Jeff Liebermann
 ||    || `- Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."russellseaton1@yahoo.com
 ||    |+* Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strengthFrank Krygowski
 ||    ||+- Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."John B.
 ||    ||`* Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."funkma...@hotmail.com
 ||    || `- Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."John B.
 ||    |`* Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."John B.
 ||    | `* Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strengthFrank Krygowski
 ||    |  +* Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."John B.
 ||    |  `* Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."Jeff Liebermann
 ||    `- Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strengthFrank Krygowski
 |`- Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."Jeff Liebermann
 `* Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."russellseaton1@yahoo.com

Pages:12345
"Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."

<t3s7ba$vbo$1@dont-email.me>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=54843&group=rec.bicycles.tech#54843

 copy link   Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: frkry...@sbcglobal.net (Frank Krygowski)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2022 14:21:29 -0400
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <t3s7ba$vbo$1@dont-email.me>
Reply-To: frkrygowOMIT@gEEmail.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Injection-Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2022 18:21:30 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: reader02.eternal-september.org; posting-host="8e63f1deaba490aefa406bd1ed4ecc61";
logging-data="32120"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1+4rnigor/boilv/h5N7YSWPi4ZlwHbwbQ="
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/91.8.0
Cancel-Lock: sha1:0sqi6Op0s7jTW180rkY3HJJBqS0=
X-Antivirus-Status: Clean
Content-Language: en-US
X-Antivirus: Avast (VPS 220421-4, 4/21/2022), Outbound message
 by: Frank Krygowski - Thu, 21 Apr 2022 18:21 UTC

"Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."

I'm sure there are countless engineers who would be surprised to read
that blanket statement. They might ask "_Which_ stainless steel? How
brittle, under what conditions? What sort of stresses qualify as
'high-strength'? What sort of applications?"

https://www.renehersecycles.com/just-a-bunch-of-bolts/

Jan Heine has some good idea, but IMO he often goes off into the weeds.

I can't remember the last time I broke a stainless steel fastener on a
bike. It may have never happened.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."

<t3s8ot$a93$1@dont-email.me>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=54844&group=rec.bicycles.tech#54844

 copy link   Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: am...@yellowjersey.org (AMuzi)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2022 13:45:49 -0500
Organization: Yellow Jersey, Ltd.
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <t3s8ot$a93$1@dont-email.me>
References: <t3s7ba$vbo$1@dont-email.me>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Injection-Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2022 18:45:49 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: reader02.eternal-september.org; posting-host="dcecf5d6eff3bdcc3595b17a52064e2a";
logging-data="10531"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX19DO9PpRF1YvoiVMsdkR9bB"
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:13.0) Gecko/20120604 Thunderbird/13.0
Cancel-Lock: sha1:fnRU7PKxQLT+++nixWSi7/FiFm8=
In-Reply-To: <t3s7ba$vbo$1@dont-email.me>
 by: AMuzi - Thu, 21 Apr 2022 18:45 UTC

On 4/21/2022 1:21 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength
> applications..."
>
> I'm sure there are countless engineers who would be
> surprised to read that blanket statement. They might ask
> "_Which_ stainless steel? How brittle, under what
> conditions? What sort of stresses qualify as
> 'high-strength'? What sort of applications?"
>
> https://www.renehersecycles.com/just-a-bunch-of-bolts/
>
> Jan Heine has some good idea, but IMO he often goes off into
> the weeds.
>
> I can't remember the last time I broke a stainless steel
> fastener on a bike. It may have never happened.
>
>

The range of stainless alloys is wide and varied, which is
why I ignored that comment.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."

<2b8e5732-27dc-4afc-884f-7555a82a22c2n@googlegroups.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=54845&group=rec.bicycles.tech#54845

 copy link   Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
X-Received: by 2002:a37:41d6:0:b0:67e:4494:c5e9 with SMTP id o205-20020a3741d6000000b0067e4494c5e9mr540803qka.605.1650567289331;
Thu, 21 Apr 2022 11:54:49 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6808:169f:b0:2d7:9bbd:ae82 with SMTP id
bb31-20020a056808169f00b002d79bbdae82mr557542oib.136.1650567289049; Thu, 21
Apr 2022 11:54:49 -0700 (PDT)
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder6.news.weretis.net!news.misty.com!border2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2022 11:54:48 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <t3s8ot$a93$1@dont-email.me>
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=185.209.176.194; posting-account=ai195goAAAAWOHLnJWPRm0qjf_39qMws
NNTP-Posting-Host: 185.209.176.194
References: <t3s7ba$vbo$1@dont-email.me> <t3s8ot$a93$1@dont-email.me>
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <2b8e5732-27dc-4afc-884f-7555a82a22c2n@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."
From: cyclin...@gmail.com (Tom Kunich)
Injection-Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2022 18:54:49 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Lines: 27
 by: Tom Kunich - Thu, 21 Apr 2022 18:54 UTC

On Thursday, April 21, 2022 at 11:45:53 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 4/21/2022 1:21 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength
> > applications..."
> >
> > I'm sure there are countless engineers who would be
> > surprised to read that blanket statement. They might ask
> > "_Which_ stainless steel? How brittle, under what
> > conditions? What sort of stresses qualify as
> > 'high-strength'? What sort of applications?"
> >
> > https://www.renehersecycles.com/just-a-bunch-of-bolts/
> >
> > Jan Heine has some good idea, but IMO he often goes off into
> > the weeds.
> >
> > I can't remember the last time I broke a stainless steel
> > fastener on a bike. It may have never happened.
> >
> >
> The range of stainless alloys is wide and varied, which is
> why I ignored that comment.

None of the stainless steels could be considered brittle by bicycle standards and stainless frames and forks have been built without much attention to the particular compound, Though brittleness usually goes along with the highest strength compounds which makes carbon steel more brittle. How many carbon steel frames or forks have you seen fail?

Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."

<t3sbla$3h3$1@dont-email.me>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=54846&group=rec.bicycles.tech#54846

 copy link   Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: rog...@sarlet.com (Roger Merriman)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength
applications..."
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2022 19:35:06 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <t3sbla$3h3$1@dont-email.me>
References: <t3s7ba$vbo$1@dont-email.me>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2022 19:35:06 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: reader02.eternal-september.org; posting-host="c4daa29f75e7365a4f255c283a21dc80";
logging-data="3619"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1+875eu3qiXfrQPZv5PAs6H"
User-Agent: NewsTap/5.5 (iPad)
Cancel-Lock: sha1:2vWv5+Ssrucsmb+S3HteCmSR+YY=
sha1:jbdvGWPfuW8P047gQWU1OngWzT0=
 by: Roger Merriman - Thu, 21 Apr 2022 19:35 UTC

Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."
>
> I'm sure there are countless engineers who would be surprised to read
> that blanket statement. They might ask "_Which_ stainless steel? How
> brittle, under what conditions? What sort of stresses qualify as
> 'high-strength'? What sort of applications?"
>
> https://www.renehersecycles.com/just-a-bunch-of-bolts/
>
> Jan Heine has some good idea, but IMO he often goes off into the weeds.
>
> I can't remember the last time I broke a stainless steel fastener on a
> bike. It may have never happened.
>
>
He is a bit of a retro grouch plus sometimes the opinion dressed as facts.

Which is fine to say I like this, but to claim it’s the only way is less
so.

Roger Merriman

Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."

<gua36hhjbebv47po4ov1j2a5jpm96t1gb4@4ax.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=54847&group=rec.bicycles.tech#54847

 copy link   Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder6.news.weretis.net!news.misty.com!border2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!buffer2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!buffer1.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.supernews.com!news.supernews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2022 14:37:38 -0500
From: jef...@cruzio.com (Jeff Liebermann)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2022 12:37:36 -0700
Message-ID: <gua36hhjbebv47po4ov1j2a5jpm96t1gb4@4ax.com>
References: <t3s7ba$vbo$1@dont-email.me>
User-Agent: ForteAgent/8.00.32.1272
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 44
X-Trace: sv3-wmoCRidKvk/K63S7p99ClSfvjAbgc5g0zpwamil6Tz/0sTtsD3XbVIJGfWihlrM2bJyp9a8yHh5m3xQ!c3sNO7SKF7STEBVni314C/sa5hYwqJeqCbtn3ePN+mAc+a6Upg1GOlHIbuSREhXMwPO5jyjr8x09!FYDtyfc=
X-Complaints-To: www.supernews.com/docs/abuse.html
X-DMCA-Complaints-To: www.supernews.com/docs/dmca.html
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly
X-Postfilter: 1.3.40
X-Original-Bytes: 3246
 by: Jeff Liebermann - Thu, 21 Apr 2022 19:37 UTC

On Thu, 21 Apr 2022 14:21:29 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>"Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."
>
>I'm sure there are countless engineers who would be surprised to read
>that blanket statement. They might ask "_Which_ stainless steel? How
>brittle, under what conditions? What sort of stresses qualify as
>'high-strength'? What sort of applications?"
>
>https://www.renehersecycles.com/just-a-bunch-of-bolts/
>
>Jan Heine has some good idea, but IMO he often goes off into the weeds.
>
>I can't remember the last time I broke a stainless steel fastener on a
>bike. It may have never happened.

Good questions. When I read such advice, the first thing I ask is
"What problem is he trying to solve?" There's not enough info in the
article to extract an answer, so I'll guess. My guess(tm) is one of
his customers probably tried to remove a stuck small stainless
fastener with an impact driver/drill or similar power tool. The peak
forces that such tools produce are sufficient to snap the head off any
small screw. I've done that a few times, but not on bicycles or
computers. In the building trades, torque limiting bits and
extensions are commonly used to reduce the peak torque problem. For
example, the Milwaukee "shock wave" driver bits:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=milwaukee+impact+driver+bits&tbm=isch>
More:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=torque+limiting+bit&tbm=isch>
<https://www.google.com/search?q=torque+limiting+extension&tbm=isch>
To make matters worse, stainless steels are susceptible to thread
galling, which is almost as good as welding the threads. I saw some
galling problems with 316 stainless in marine applications.
Fortunately, the now common battery powered impact drivers were not
available at the time and most fasteners could be un-frozen with a
breaker bar. Trying to remove or insert a stuck fastener with an
impact driver could easily snap off the fastener head.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."

<b45aec22-fb82-4583-9700-7b834375e974n@googlegroups.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=54850&group=rec.bicycles.tech#54850

 copy link   Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:2886:b0:699:bab7:ae78 with SMTP id j6-20020a05620a288600b00699bab7ae78mr811437qkp.618.1650574189140;
Thu, 21 Apr 2022 13:49:49 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: by 2002:a9d:4796:0:b0:601:94e2:ce0b with SMTP id
b22-20020a9d4796000000b0060194e2ce0bmr610821otf.197.1650574188894; Thu, 21
Apr 2022 13:49:48 -0700 (PDT)
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder6.news.weretis.net!news.misty.com!border2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2022 13:49:48 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <t3sbla$3h3$1@dont-email.me>
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=185.209.176.194; posting-account=ai195goAAAAWOHLnJWPRm0qjf_39qMws
NNTP-Posting-Host: 185.209.176.194
References: <t3s7ba$vbo$1@dont-email.me> <t3sbla$3h3$1@dont-email.me>
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <b45aec22-fb82-4583-9700-7b834375e974n@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."
From: cyclin...@gmail.com (Tom Kunich)
Injection-Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2022 20:49:49 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Lines: 37
 by: Tom Kunich - Thu, 21 Apr 2022 20:49 UTC

On Thursday, April 21, 2022 at 12:35:09 PM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote:
> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> > "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."
> >
> > I'm sure there are countless engineers who would be surprised to read
> > that blanket statement. They might ask "_Which_ stainless steel? How
> > brittle, under what conditions? What sort of stresses qualify as
> > 'high-strength'? What sort of applications?"
> >
> > https://www.renehersecycles.com/just-a-bunch-of-bolts/
> >
> > Jan Heine has some good idea, but IMO he often goes off into the weeds.
> >
> > I can't remember the last time I broke a stainless steel fastener on a
> > bike. It may have never happened.
> >
> >
> He is a bit of a retro grouch plus sometimes the opinion dressed as facts..
>
> Which is fine to say I like this, but to claim it’s the only way is less
> so.
Tourists are somewhat sensitive to weight but not nearly as much as sport riders who think that changing from 5% of your body weight to 4.95% of your body weight will allow them to ride like Chris Froome. It's all a bit silly and the only reason that pro's go along with it is because they are paid to make the general public believe it is important. And then they do this other silly thing - they tell everyone that disk brakes are better than rim brakes (which they are in heavy rain though you compensate simply by tapping the brakes a couple of seconds before you need them) but these add 2 lbs to the weight of a bike. They "saved" weight in the bottom bracket by using press-in bearings which failed all the time so that they had to replace that idea with metal inserts and screw-in metal bearing holders. Now the weight of a reliable sports bike is back up to what it was with Lance Armstrong.

Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."

<t3sg9v$7m0$1@dont-email.me>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=54851&group=rec.bicycles.tech#54851

 copy link   Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: am...@yellowjersey.org (AMuzi)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2022 15:54:22 -0500
Organization: Yellow Jersey, Ltd.
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <t3sg9v$7m0$1@dont-email.me>
References: <t3s7ba$vbo$1@dont-email.me> <t3s8ot$a93$1@dont-email.me> <2b8e5732-27dc-4afc-884f-7555a82a22c2n@googlegroups.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Injection-Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2022 20:54:23 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: reader02.eternal-september.org; posting-host="dcecf5d6eff3bdcc3595b17a52064e2a";
logging-data="7872"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX19WzaL3P/LUsNRdZkYTtaVI"
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:13.0) Gecko/20120604 Thunderbird/13.0
Cancel-Lock: sha1:obyO0YVXa5/bGsvaqmEQAK/y55M=
In-Reply-To: <2b8e5732-27dc-4afc-884f-7555a82a22c2n@googlegroups.com>
 by: AMuzi - Thu, 21 Apr 2022 20:54 UTC

On 4/21/2022 1:54 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Thursday, April 21, 2022 at 11:45:53 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 4/21/2022 1:21 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength
>>> applications..."
>>>
>>> I'm sure there are countless engineers who would be
>>> surprised to read that blanket statement. They might ask
>>> "_Which_ stainless steel? How brittle, under what
>>> conditions? What sort of stresses qualify as
>>> 'high-strength'? What sort of applications?"
>>>
>>> https://www.renehersecycles.com/just-a-bunch-of-bolts/
>>>
>>> Jan Heine has some good idea, but IMO he often goes off into
>>> the weeds.
>>>
>>> I can't remember the last time I broke a stainless steel
>>> fastener on a bike. It may have never happened.
>>>
>>>
>> The range of stainless alloys is wide and varied, which is
>> why I ignored that comment.
>
> None of the stainless steels could be considered brittle by bicycle standards and stainless frames and forks have been built without much attention to the particular compound, Though brittleness usually goes along with the highest strength compounds which makes carbon steel more brittle. How many carbon steel frames or forks have you seen fail?
>

Many. Countless even. There are a LOT of 1010/1020 steel
bicycles on earth.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."

<t3sgf4$7m0$2@dont-email.me>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=54852&group=rec.bicycles.tech#54852

 copy link   Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: am...@yellowjersey.org (AMuzi)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2022 15:57:08 -0500
Organization: Yellow Jersey, Ltd.
Lines: 53
Message-ID: <t3sgf4$7m0$2@dont-email.me>
References: <t3s7ba$vbo$1@dont-email.me> <gua36hhjbebv47po4ov1j2a5jpm96t1gb4@4ax.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Injection-Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2022 20:57:08 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: reader02.eternal-september.org; posting-host="dcecf5d6eff3bdcc3595b17a52064e2a";
logging-data="7872"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX18O5ex3zcJJsIrcqVooMVrX"
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:13.0) Gecko/20120604 Thunderbird/13.0
Cancel-Lock: sha1:gcf0/fN6+nluI3rt7pmWXbSVO9E=
In-Reply-To: <gua36hhjbebv47po4ov1j2a5jpm96t1gb4@4ax.com>
 by: AMuzi - Thu, 21 Apr 2022 20:57 UTC

On 4/21/2022 2:37 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Thu, 21 Apr 2022 14:21:29 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."
>>
>> I'm sure there are countless engineers who would be surprised to read
>> that blanket statement. They might ask "_Which_ stainless steel? How
>> brittle, under what conditions? What sort of stresses qualify as
>> 'high-strength'? What sort of applications?"
>>
>> https://www.renehersecycles.com/just-a-bunch-of-bolts/
>>
>> Jan Heine has some good idea, but IMO he often goes off into the weeds.
>>
>> I can't remember the last time I broke a stainless steel fastener on a
>> bike. It may have never happened.
>
> Good questions. When I read such advice, the first thing I ask is
> "What problem is he trying to solve?" There's not enough info in the
> article to extract an answer, so I'll guess. My guess(tm) is one of
> his customers probably tried to remove a stuck small stainless
> fastener with an impact driver/drill or similar power tool. The peak
> forces that such tools produce are sufficient to snap the head off any
> small screw. I've done that a few times, but not on bicycles or
> computers. In the building trades, torque limiting bits and
> extensions are commonly used to reduce the peak torque problem. For
> example, the Milwaukee "shock wave" driver bits:
> <https://www.google.com/search?q=milwaukee+impact+driver+bits&tbm=isch>
> More:
> <https://www.google.com/search?q=torque+limiting+bit&tbm=isch>
> <https://www.google.com/search?q=torque+limiting+extension&tbm=isch>
> To make matters worse, stainless steels are susceptible to thread
> galling, which is almost as good as welding the threads. I saw some
> galling problems with 316 stainless in marine applications.
> Fortunately, the now common battery powered impact drivers were not
> available at the time and most fasteners could be un-frozen with a
> breaker bar. Trying to remove or insert a stuck fastener with an
> impact driver could easily snap off the fastener head.
>

Good information. The basic trouble here is that trying to
generalize about 'stainless fasteners' given the ranges of
'stainless' and 'fasteners' and their myriad applications
and environments (and user idiocy, never to be discounted)
make generalizations pointless.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."

<6d0199a8-2e38-4f10-9ec7-0c01d5fc6c2dn@googlegroups.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=54853&group=rec.bicycles.tech#54853

 copy link   Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:45ab:b0:69e:d1f0:b7be with SMTP id bp43-20020a05620a45ab00b0069ed1f0b7bemr833937qkb.179.1650574916533;
Thu, 21 Apr 2022 14:01:56 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: by 2002:a9d:6f8a:0:b0:605:526f:4694 with SMTP id
h10-20020a9d6f8a000000b00605526f4694mr646437otq.51.1650574916251; Thu, 21 Apr
2022 14:01:56 -0700 (PDT)
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder6.news.weretis.net!news.misty.com!border2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2022 14:01:56 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <t3sg9v$7m0$1@dont-email.me>
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=185.209.176.194; posting-account=ai195goAAAAWOHLnJWPRm0qjf_39qMws
NNTP-Posting-Host: 185.209.176.194
References: <t3s7ba$vbo$1@dont-email.me> <t3s8ot$a93$1@dont-email.me>
<2b8e5732-27dc-4afc-884f-7555a82a22c2n@googlegroups.com> <t3sg9v$7m0$1@dont-email.me>
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <6d0199a8-2e38-4f10-9ec7-0c01d5fc6c2dn@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."
From: cyclin...@gmail.com (Tom Kunich)
Injection-Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2022 21:01:56 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Lines: 36
 by: Tom Kunich - Thu, 21 Apr 2022 21:01 UTC

On Thursday, April 21, 2022 at 1:54:26 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 4/21/2022 1:54 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Thursday, April 21, 2022 at 11:45:53 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >> On 4/21/2022 1:21 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>> "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength
> >>> applications..."
> >>>
> >>> I'm sure there are countless engineers who would be
> >>> surprised to read that blanket statement. They might ask
> >>> "_Which_ stainless steel? How brittle, under what
> >>> conditions? What sort of stresses qualify as
> >>> 'high-strength'? What sort of applications?"
> >>>
> >>> https://www.renehersecycles.com/just-a-bunch-of-bolts/
> >>>
> >>> Jan Heine has some good idea, but IMO he often goes off into
> >>> the weeds.
> >>>
> >>> I can't remember the last time I broke a stainless steel
> >>> fastener on a bike. It may have never happened.
> >>>
> >>>
> >> The range of stainless alloys is wide and varied, which is
> >> why I ignored that comment.
> >
> > None of the stainless steels could be considered brittle by bicycle standards and stainless frames and forks have been built without much attention to the particular compound, Though brittleness usually goes along with the highest strength compounds which makes carbon steel more brittle. How many carbon steel frames or forks have you seen fail?
> >
> Many. Countless even. There are a LOT of 1010/1020 steel
> bicycles on earth.

When you're talking a billion or more bicycles. 0.01% is still a million failed bicycles. And I'm talking about higher end bicycles. So if you don't personally see these failures, you certainly hear all about them.

Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."

<t3shpl$j4h$1@dont-email.me>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=54854&group=rec.bicycles.tech#54854

 copy link   Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: rog...@sarlet.com (Roger Merriman)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength
applications..."
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2022 21:19:49 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 63
Message-ID: <t3shpl$j4h$1@dont-email.me>
References: <t3s7ba$vbo$1@dont-email.me>
<t3sbla$3h3$1@dont-email.me>
<b45aec22-fb82-4583-9700-7b834375e974n@googlegroups.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2022 21:19:49 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: reader02.eternal-september.org; posting-host="c4daa29f75e7365a4f255c283a21dc80";
logging-data="19601"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1/g1ldS2u2YTiDao+7vOfKK"
User-Agent: NewsTap/5.5 (iPad)
Cancel-Lock: sha1:GnHxeCNXC5wfbgzhAt7P4pbq92s=
sha1:Xk2jAGi3K56aU4zFMuhVq8zndJc=
 by: Roger Merriman - Thu, 21 Apr 2022 21:19 UTC

Tom Kunich <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thursday, April 21, 2022 at 12:35:09 PM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."
>>>
>>> I'm sure there are countless engineers who would be surprised to read
>>> that blanket statement. They might ask "_Which_ stainless steel? How
>>> brittle, under what conditions? What sort of stresses qualify as
>>> 'high-strength'? What sort of applications?"
>>>
>>> https://www.renehersecycles.com/just-a-bunch-of-bolts/
>>>
>>> Jan Heine has some good idea, but IMO he often goes off into the weeds.
>>>
>>> I can't remember the last time I broke a stainless steel fastener on a
>>> bike. It may have never happened.
>>>
>>>
>> He is a bit of a retro grouch plus sometimes the opinion dressed as facts.
>>
>> Which is fine to say I like this, but to claim it’s the only way is less
>> so.
> Tourists are somewhat sensitive to weight but not nearly as much as sport
> riders who think that changing from 5% of your body weight to 4.95% of
> your body weight will allow them to ride like Chris Froome.

It’s is but it’s what was the Science at the time to be fair.

It's all a bit silly and the only reason that pro's go along with it is
because they are paid to make the general public believe it is important.

Judging by Pros response to disk and tubeless etc, they are if not
retrogrouches certainly conservative generally.

And then they do this other silly thing - they tell everyone that disk
brakes are better than rim brakes (which they are in heavy rain though you
compensate simply by tapping the brakes a couple of seconds before you need
them) but these add 2 lbs to the weight of a bike.

A disk groupset vs rim is only 100g heavier and that’s looking at stuff
quite a few years back. I’d assume the gap is closer now. Yes the frame may
need to be reinforced in places but again I’d assume the gap to narrow as
time goes on.

One of the daft things which seems to of stopped now considering how little
rotors weigh was bikes being equipped with 140mm rotors which reduced both
power and ability of the brake to shift heat, with little weight saving.

They "saved" weight in the bottom bracket by using press-in bearings which
failed all the time so that they had to replace that idea with metal
inserts and screw-in metal bearing holders.

My MTB has pressfit as was the fashion of the time, it’s been fine but it’s
not a light weight frame and a decent make, apparently the issue is if the
frame isn’t quite to tolerance hence folks with creaking bikes etc.

Now the weight of a reliable sports bike is back up to what it was with
Lance Armstrong.
>

Roger Merriman.

Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."

<t3slmj$ftg$1@dont-email.me>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=54855&group=rec.bicycles.tech#54855

 copy link   Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: am...@yellowjersey.org (AMuzi)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2022 17:26:25 -0500
Organization: Yellow Jersey, Ltd.
Lines: 53
Message-ID: <t3slmj$ftg$1@dont-email.me>
References: <t3s7ba$vbo$1@dont-email.me> <t3s8ot$a93$1@dont-email.me> <2b8e5732-27dc-4afc-884f-7555a82a22c2n@googlegroups.com> <t3sg9v$7m0$1@dont-email.me> <6d0199a8-2e38-4f10-9ec7-0c01d5fc6c2dn@googlegroups.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Injection-Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2022 22:26:27 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: reader02.eternal-september.org; posting-host="834ce66e5a720554bc32c5774e53b4d9";
logging-data="16304"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX18ILhQsV96XIvUIEqpHLmNr"
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:13.0) Gecko/20120604 Thunderbird/13.0
Cancel-Lock: sha1:8c0MuvELPG+QIwIH9H7SvkFOKGY=
In-Reply-To: <6d0199a8-2e38-4f10-9ec7-0c01d5fc6c2dn@googlegroups.com>
 by: AMuzi - Thu, 21 Apr 2022 22:26 UTC

On 4/21/2022 4:01 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Thursday, April 21, 2022 at 1:54:26 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 4/21/2022 1:54 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> On Thursday, April 21, 2022 at 11:45:53 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 4/21/2022 1:21 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>> "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength
>>>>> applications..."
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm sure there are countless engineers who would be
>>>>> surprised to read that blanket statement. They might ask
>>>>> "_Which_ stainless steel? How brittle, under what
>>>>> conditions? What sort of stresses qualify as
>>>>> 'high-strength'? What sort of applications?"
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.renehersecycles.com/just-a-bunch-of-bolts/
>>>>>
>>>>> Jan Heine has some good idea, but IMO he often goes off into
>>>>> the weeds.
>>>>>
>>>>> I can't remember the last time I broke a stainless steel
>>>>> fastener on a bike. It may have never happened.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> The range of stainless alloys is wide and varied, which is
>>>> why I ignored that comment.
>>>
>>> None of the stainless steels could be considered brittle by bicycle standards and stainless frames and forks have been built without much attention to the particular compound, Though brittleness usually goes along with the highest strength compounds which makes carbon steel more brittle. How many carbon steel frames or forks have you seen fail?
>>>
>> Many. Countless even. There are a LOT of 1010/1020 steel
>> bicycles on earth.
>
> When you're talking a billion or more bicycles. 0.01% is still a million failed bicycles. And I'm talking about higher end bicycles. So if you don't personally see these failures, you certainly hear all about them.
>

'Higher end' bicycles are not made of 1010 or 1020 steel.
That was already true when I was born!

https://onlinebicyclemuseum.co.uk/1953-raleigh-lenton-sports-reg-harris-road-model/

Note 531 frame, not 1010 steel.

Reg Harris not only was World Champion Sprinter in 1947, he
set the 1000 meter record in 1953 on his Reynolds 531
Raleigh and then used the same bicycle and his own same old
legs to win British Sprint Gold in 1974 (so much for 'steel
deterioration').

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."

<39n36h5jsdmvts0ofammb4dgaledak29u9@4ax.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=54856&group=rec.bicycles.tech#54856

 copy link   Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: slocom...@gmail.com (John B.)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2022 05:44:06 +0700
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <39n36h5jsdmvts0ofammb4dgaledak29u9@4ax.com>
References: <t3s7ba$vbo$1@dont-email.me>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Injection-Info: reader02.eternal-september.org; posting-host="abec5fc16a5b38d29ff81e929d48cd90";
logging-data="22827"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1+l3W4jVuGIbld963IMcYK/iLCPsja+glE="
User-Agent: ForteAgent/7.10.32.1212
Cancel-Lock: sha1:Y19oKfspKDkexo7exa5Cnm1SpgU=
 by: John B. - Thu, 21 Apr 2022 22:44 UTC

On Thu, 21 Apr 2022 14:21:29 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>"Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."
>
>I'm sure there are countless engineers who would be surprised to read
>that blanket statement. They might ask "_Which_ stainless steel? How
>brittle, under what conditions? What sort of stresses qualify as
>'high-strength'? What sort of applications?"
>
>https://www.renehersecycles.com/just-a-bunch-of-bolts/
>
>Jan Heine has some good idea, but IMO he often goes off into the weeds.
>
>I can't remember the last time I broke a stainless steel fastener on a
>bike. It may have never happened.

For that matter, I don't use the fancy nuts, bolts and washers that
seem to be recommended in the referenced article and I can't remember
ever having a "bolt" loosen. I do use stainless" as that is what
is/was easy to buy, as that is what the "Screw Shop" seems to stock.
--
Cheers,

John B.

Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."

<vqn36hp8t1g60m3oodhl6suo6arkf3jl4u@4ax.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=54857&group=rec.bicycles.tech#54857

 copy link   Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: slocom...@gmail.com (John B.)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2022 05:51:45 +0700
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 39
Message-ID: <vqn36hp8t1g60m3oodhl6suo6arkf3jl4u@4ax.com>
References: <t3s7ba$vbo$1@dont-email.me> <t3s8ot$a93$1@dont-email.me> <2b8e5732-27dc-4afc-884f-7555a82a22c2n@googlegroups.com> <t3sg9v$7m0$1@dont-email.me>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Injection-Info: reader02.eternal-september.org; posting-host="abec5fc16a5b38d29ff81e929d48cd90";
logging-data="25548"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX18QCAM8VGB5sfx9yEgTwcT2tl8WcEFMC0s="
User-Agent: ForteAgent/7.10.32.1212
Cancel-Lock: sha1:AV3U8j/rXprOZ2e+ORyvN1Kc0no=
 by: John B. - Thu, 21 Apr 2022 22:51 UTC

On Thu, 21 Apr 2022 15:54:22 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 4/21/2022 1:54 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> On Thursday, April 21, 2022 at 11:45:53 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 4/21/2022 1:21 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength
>>>> applications..."
>>>>
>>>> I'm sure there are countless engineers who would be
>>>> surprised to read that blanket statement. They might ask
>>>> "_Which_ stainless steel? How brittle, under what
>>>> conditions? What sort of stresses qualify as
>>>> 'high-strength'? What sort of applications?"
>>>>
>>>> https://www.renehersecycles.com/just-a-bunch-of-bolts/
>>>>
>>>> Jan Heine has some good idea, but IMO he often goes off into
>>>> the weeds.
>>>>
>>>> I can't remember the last time I broke a stainless steel
>>>> fastener on a bike. It may have never happened.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> The range of stainless alloys is wide and varied, which is
>>> why I ignored that comment.
>>
>> None of the stainless steels could be considered brittle by bicycle standards and stainless frames and forks have been built without much attention to the particular compound, Though brittleness usually goes along with the highest strength compounds which makes carbon steel more brittle. How many carbon steel frames or forks have you seen fail?
>>
>
>Many. Countless even. There are a LOT of 1010/1020 steel
>bicycles on earth.

Well (:-) "steel" is a term used to identify, basically, an alloy of
iron and carbon (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."

<t3snib$qgn$1@dont-email.me>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=54858&group=rec.bicycles.tech#54858

 copy link   Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: frkry...@sbcglobal.net (Frank Krygowski)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength
applications..."
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2022 18:58:19 -0400
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 52
Message-ID: <t3snib$qgn$1@dont-email.me>
References: <t3s7ba$vbo$1@dont-email.me>
<gua36hhjbebv47po4ov1j2a5jpm96t1gb4@4ax.com> <t3sgf4$7m0$2@dont-email.me>
Reply-To: frkrygowOMIT@gEEmail.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2022 22:58:19 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: reader02.eternal-september.org; posting-host="29859c4300100a26422344995a2a2e47";
logging-data="27159"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1+GKqEk7kQFA1+BF3mDwkkTrgAXvEyHGyA="
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/91.8.1
Cancel-Lock: sha1:i8u8qnE8dy5bpT1umdwWxrnRUQk=
In-Reply-To: <t3sgf4$7m0$2@dont-email.me>
X-Antivirus-Status: Clean
Content-Language: en-US
X-Antivirus: Avast (VPS 220421-6, 4/21/2022), Outbound message
 by: Frank Krygowski - Thu, 21 Apr 2022 22:58 UTC

On 4/21/2022 4:57 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 4/21/2022 2:37 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> On Thu, 21 Apr 2022 14:21:29 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."
>>>
>>> I'm sure there are countless engineers who would be surprised to read
>>> that blanket statement. They might ask "_Which_ stainless steel? How
>>> brittle, under what conditions? What sort of stresses qualify as
>>> 'high-strength'? What sort of applications?"
>>>
>>> https://www.renehersecycles.com/just-a-bunch-of-bolts/
>>>
>>> Jan Heine has some good idea, but IMO he often goes off into the weeds.
>>>
>>> I can't remember the last time I  broke a stainless steel fastener on a
>>> bike. It may have never happened.
>>
>> Good questions.  When I read such advice, the first thing I ask is
>> "What problem is he trying to solve?"  There's not enough info in the
>> article to extract an answer, so I'll guess.  My guess(tm) is one of
>> his customers probably tried to remove a stuck small stainless
>> fastener with an impact driver/drill or similar power tool.  The peak
>> forces that such tools produce are sufficient to snap the head off any
>> small screw.  I've done that a few times, but not on bicycles or
>> computers.  In the building trades, torque limiting bits and
>> extensions are commonly used to reduce the peak torque problem.  For
>> example, the Milwaukee "shock wave" driver bits:
>> <https://www.google.com/search?q=milwaukee+impact+driver+bits&tbm=isch>
>> More:
>> <https://www.google.com/search?q=torque+limiting+bit&tbm=isch>
>> <https://www.google.com/search?q=torque+limiting+extension&tbm=isch>
>> To make matters worse, stainless steels are susceptible to thread
>> galling, which is almost as good as welding the threads.  I saw some
>> galling problems with 316 stainless in marine applications.
>> Fortunately, the now common battery powered impact drivers were not
>> available at the time and most fasteners could be un-frozen with a
>> breaker bar.  Trying to remove or insert a stuck fastener with an
>> impact driver could easily snap off the fastener head.
>>
>
> Good information. The basic trouble here is that trying to generalize
> about 'stainless fasteners' given the ranges of 'stainless' and
> 'fasteners' and their myriad applications and environments (and user
> idiocy, never to be discounted) make generalizations pointless.
>

+1, exactly.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."

<t3snu0$qgn$2@dont-email.me>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=54859&group=rec.bicycles.tech#54859

 copy link   Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: frkry...@sbcglobal.net (Frank Krygowski)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength
applications..."
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2022 19:04:32 -0400
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 47
Message-ID: <t3snu0$qgn$2@dont-email.me>
References: <t3s7ba$vbo$1@dont-email.me>
<gua36hhjbebv47po4ov1j2a5jpm96t1gb4@4ax.com>
Reply-To: frkrygowOMIT@gEEmail.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Injection-Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2022 23:04:32 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: reader02.eternal-september.org; posting-host="29859c4300100a26422344995a2a2e47";
logging-data="27159"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX18kq/ke1o0le1GEMt7i3LA1KQc2b293Arg="
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/91.8.1
Cancel-Lock: sha1:qEzU5dtg+c0hNKB7JELWAtjzCyk=
In-Reply-To: <gua36hhjbebv47po4ov1j2a5jpm96t1gb4@4ax.com>
X-Antivirus-Status: Clean
Content-Language: en-US
X-Antivirus: Avast (VPS 220421-6, 4/21/2022), Outbound message
 by: Frank Krygowski - Thu, 21 Apr 2022 23:04 UTC

On 4/21/2022 3:37 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Thu, 21 Apr 2022 14:21:29 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."
>>
>> I'm sure there are countless engineers who would be surprised to read
>> that blanket statement. They might ask "_Which_ stainless steel? How
>> brittle, under what conditions? What sort of stresses qualify as
>> 'high-strength'? What sort of applications?"
>>
>> https://www.renehersecycles.com/just-a-bunch-of-bolts/
>>
>> Jan Heine has some good idea, but IMO he often goes off into the weeds.
>>
>> I can't remember the last time I broke a stainless steel fastener on a
>> bike. It may have never happened.
>
> Good questions. When I read such advice, the first thing I ask is
> "What problem is he trying to solve?" There's not enough info in the
> article to extract an answer, so I'll guess. My guess(tm) is one of
> his customers probably tried to remove a stuck small stainless
> fastener with an impact driver/drill or similar power tool. The peak
> forces that such tools produce are sufficient to snap the head off any
> small screw. I've done that a few times, but not on bicycles or
> computers. In the building trades, torque limiting bits and
> extensions are commonly used to reduce the peak torque problem. For
> example, the Milwaukee "shock wave" driver bits:
> <https://www.google.com/search?q=milwaukee+impact+driver+bits&tbm=isch>
> More:
> <https://www.google.com/search?q=torque+limiting+bit&tbm=isch>
> <https://www.google.com/search?q=torque+limiting+extension&tbm=isch>
> To make matters worse, stainless steels are susceptible to thread
> galling, which is almost as good as welding the threads. I saw some
> galling problems with 316 stainless in marine applications.
> Fortunately, the now common battery powered impact drivers were not
> available at the time and most fasteners could be un-frozen with a
> breaker bar. Trying to remove or insert a stuck fastener with an
> impact driver could easily snap off the fastener head.

When I read Jan Heine's remarks on tightening fasteners so strongly they
could never come loose, and how that required special super-strong
fasteners, I thought "Has he never heard of Loctite?"

--
- Frank Krygowski

Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."

<f5o36hts51n128hf2bgbsbdi563tq9j2tp@4ax.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=54860&group=rec.bicycles.tech#54860

 copy link   Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: slocom...@gmail.com (John B.)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2022 06:06:12 +0700
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 53
Message-ID: <f5o36hts51n128hf2bgbsbdi563tq9j2tp@4ax.com>
References: <t3s7ba$vbo$1@dont-email.me> <gua36hhjbebv47po4ov1j2a5jpm96t1gb4@4ax.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Injection-Info: reader02.eternal-september.org; posting-host="abec5fc16a5b38d29ff81e929d48cd90";
logging-data="30800"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1+km9sVsgd4xvtvrMnMJIAT1PwEXm3pcgI="
User-Agent: ForteAgent/7.10.32.1212
Cancel-Lock: sha1:2b/jCtnGc7hM4T7DT+IbqQhwZKU=
 by: John B. - Thu, 21 Apr 2022 23:06 UTC

On Thu, 21 Apr 2022 12:37:36 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Thu, 21 Apr 2022 14:21:29 -0400, Frank Krygowski
><frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>>"Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."
>>
>>I'm sure there are countless engineers who would be surprised to read
>>that blanket statement. They might ask "_Which_ stainless steel? How
>>brittle, under what conditions? What sort of stresses qualify as
>>'high-strength'? What sort of applications?"
>>
>>https://www.renehersecycles.com/just-a-bunch-of-bolts/
>>
>>Jan Heine has some good idea, but IMO he often goes off into the weeds.
>>
>>I can't remember the last time I broke a stainless steel fastener on a
>>bike. It may have never happened.
>
>Good questions. When I read such advice, the first thing I ask is
>"What problem is he trying to solve?" There's not enough info in the
>article to extract an answer, so I'll guess. My guess(tm) is one of
>his customers probably tried to remove a stuck small stainless
>fastener with an impact driver/drill or similar power tool. The peak
>forces that such tools produce are sufficient to snap the head off any
>small screw. I've done that a few times, but not on bicycles or
>computers. In the building trades, torque limiting bits and
>extensions are commonly used to reduce the peak torque problem. For
>example, the Milwaukee "shock wave" driver bits:
><https://www.google.com/search?q=milwaukee+impact+driver+bits&tbm=isch>
>More:
><https://www.google.com/search?q=torque+limiting+bit&tbm=isch>
><https://www.google.com/search?q=torque+limiting+extension&tbm=isch>
>To make matters worse, stainless steels are susceptible to thread
>galling, which is almost as good as welding the threads. I saw some
>galling problems with 316 stainless in marine applications.
>Fortunately, the now common battery powered impact drivers were not
>available at the time and most fasteners could be un-frozen with a
>breaker bar. Trying to remove or insert a stuck fastener with an
>impact driver could easily snap off the fastener head.

What you seem to be talking about is over torqueing smaller bolts or
screws (probably) using some sort of impact driver. And yes it
certainly is possible. But by the same token it is possible to over
torque a high strength alloy, bolt. Been there and seen it done

As I read somewhere, "incompetence knows no bounds".
--
Cheers,

John B.

Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."

<ils36hpvg1m537j4ktn5ktm5guhca9pq7i@4ax.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=54862&group=rec.bicycles.tech#54862

 copy link   Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: slocom...@gmail.com (John B.)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2022 07:44:44 +0700
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 89
Message-ID: <ils36hpvg1m537j4ktn5ktm5guhca9pq7i@4ax.com>
References: <t3s7ba$vbo$1@dont-email.me> <gua36hhjbebv47po4ov1j2a5jpm96t1gb4@4ax.com> <t3snu0$qgn$2@dont-email.me>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Injection-Info: reader02.eternal-september.org; posting-host="abec5fc16a5b38d29ff81e929d48cd90";
logging-data="535"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX18Vs8dhhln7d7s/6WVEVwZqsi9EcbQvDjw="
User-Agent: ForteAgent/7.10.32.1212
Cancel-Lock: sha1:xmKy/9GeaM/A+e7VwgcDKVRiICY=
 by: John B. - Fri, 22 Apr 2022 00:44 UTC

On Thu, 21 Apr 2022 19:04:32 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 4/21/2022 3:37 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> On Thu, 21 Apr 2022 14:21:29 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."
>>>
>>> I'm sure there are countless engineers who would be surprised to read
>>> that blanket statement. They might ask "_Which_ stainless steel? How
>>> brittle, under what conditions? What sort of stresses qualify as
>>> 'high-strength'? What sort of applications?"
>>>
>>> https://www.renehersecycles.com/just-a-bunch-of-bolts/
>>>
>>> Jan Heine has some good idea, but IMO he often goes off into the weeds.
>>>
>>> I can't remember the last time I broke a stainless steel fastener on a
>>> bike. It may have never happened.
>>
>> Good questions. When I read such advice, the first thing I ask is
>> "What problem is he trying to solve?" There's not enough info in the
>> article to extract an answer, so I'll guess. My guess(tm) is one of
>> his customers probably tried to remove a stuck small stainless
>> fastener with an impact driver/drill or similar power tool. The peak
>> forces that such tools produce are sufficient to snap the head off any
>> small screw. I've done that a few times, but not on bicycles or
>> computers. In the building trades, torque limiting bits and
>> extensions are commonly used to reduce the peak torque problem. For
>> example, the Milwaukee "shock wave" driver bits:
>> <https://www.google.com/search?q=milwaukee+impact+driver+bits&tbm=isch>
>> More:
>> <https://www.google.com/search?q=torque+limiting+bit&tbm=isch>
>> <https://www.google.com/search?q=torque+limiting+extension&tbm=isch>
>> To make matters worse, stainless steels are susceptible to thread
>> galling, which is almost as good as welding the threads. I saw some
>> galling problems with 316 stainless in marine applications.
>> Fortunately, the now common battery powered impact drivers were not
>> available at the time and most fasteners could be un-frozen with a
>> breaker bar. Trying to remove or insert a stuck fastener with an
>> impact driver could easily snap off the fastener head.
>
>When I read Jan Heine's remarks on tightening fasteners so strongly they
>could never come loose, and how that required special super-strong
>fasteners, I thought "Has he never heard of Loctite?"

I can only comment that I have never had a screw or bolt loosen on any
bicycle I've owned (:-)

I am reminded of a time when reciprocating engines were used and I
worked on R-4360, 3500 H.P., 28 cylinder engines. The cylinders had a
rather elongated "rocker box" cover with (if I remember) 7 each 1/4"
studs and they leaked. No matter how tight we tightened the nuts they
leaked!

Well, 28 cylinders with two "rocker boxes" per cylinder will leak a
lot of oil and oil on hot exhaust pipes can catch fire and people that
fly about in airplanes don't care much for their engines catching
fire, so finally a Representative from the company that make the
engines came to "fix" the problem.

This bloke watched a couple of "engine conditioning" sessions and then
held a big meeting. "You Guys are over torqueing the rocker box
retaining nuts" he said. Well, we knew that was BS as everyone on the
crew had at least 4 years experience in working on engines and "Torque
wrenches? What do I need a torque wrench for? I know what I'm doing!"

Anyway, "Management" decided to go with the Tech Rep and put out the
word that anyone caught not using a torque wrench would be "Severely
Disciplined".

So, off to the Tool Shop and everyone was issued a small "Tee handled"
torque wrench rated for the required torque and we installed rocker
box covers and, from memory, the torque required was so low that all
you had to do was twist your wrist and the wrench would click. And I'm
sure that every mechanic on the job was thing "This is B.S.! It isn't
tight enough and the damned covers are going to fall off!".

The results? Well no rocker box covers fell off and oil leaks were
reduced by about 90%.

Simply doing the job properly does work and over torqueing seldom is
the solution (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."

<b6b235c8-59e0-47e6-9e50-f79701ef2be0n@googlegroups.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=54865&group=rec.bicycles.tech#54865

 copy link   Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6214:29e7:b0:446:6d26:2440 with SMTP id jv7-20020a05621429e700b004466d262440mr1946085qvb.118.1650601127316;
Thu, 21 Apr 2022 21:18:47 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6808:300a:b0:2f7:5d32:b67 with SMTP id
ay10-20020a056808300a00b002f75d320b67mr1339382oib.122.1650601126968; Thu, 21
Apr 2022 21:18:46 -0700 (PDT)
Path: i2pn2.org!rocksolid2!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder6.news.weretis.net!news.misty.com!border2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2022 21:18:46 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <gua36hhjbebv47po4ov1j2a5jpm96t1gb4@4ax.com>
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=2604:cb00:1a09:9100:f5af:1707:fdbc:4b4d;
posting-account=ZdYemAkAAAAX44DhWSq7L62wPhUBE4FQ
NNTP-Posting-Host: 2604:cb00:1a09:9100:f5af:1707:fdbc:4b4d
References: <t3s7ba$vbo$1@dont-email.me> <gua36hhjbebv47po4ov1j2a5jpm96t1gb4@4ax.com>
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <b6b235c8-59e0-47e6-9e50-f79701ef2be0n@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."
From: ritzanna...@gmail.com (russellseaton1@yahoo.com)
Injection-Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2022 04:18:47 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Lines: 64
 by: russellseaton1@yahoo - Fri, 22 Apr 2022 04:18 UTC

On Thursday, April 21, 2022 at 2:37:46 PM UTC-5, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thu, 21 Apr 2022 14:21:29 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> >"Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."
> >
> >I'm sure there are countless engineers who would be surprised to read
> >that blanket statement. They might ask "_Which_ stainless steel? How
> >brittle, under what conditions? What sort of stresses qualify as
> >'high-strength'? What sort of applications?"
> >
> >https://www.renehersecycles.com/just-a-bunch-of-bolts/
> >
> >Jan Heine has some good idea, but IMO he often goes off into the weeds.
> >
> >I can't remember the last time I broke a stainless steel fastener on a
> >bike. It may have never happened.
> Good questions. When I read such advice, the first thing I ask is
> "What problem is he trying to solve?" There's not enough info in the
> article to extract an answer, so I'll guess. My guess(tm) is one of
> his customers probably tried to remove a stuck small stainless
> fastener with an impact driver/drill or similar power tool. The peak
> forces that such tools produce are sufficient to snap the head off any
> small screw. I've done that a few times, but not on bicycles or
> computers.

Jeff, you don't use impact drivers on your computer screws? Well, no wonder your computers are probably bursting into flames and getting viruses and spam. You need to use an Ingersoll Rand air impact driver powered by a 2 stage air compressor putting out 175 psi and 24 CFM. Ingersoll Rand makes the air compressor too so you can get both together. Then your computer screws will be properly tightened.

> In the building trades, torque limiting bits and
> extensions are commonly used to reduce the peak torque problem. For
> example, the Milwaukee "shock wave" driver bits:
> <https://www.google.com/search?q=milwaukee+impact+driver+bits&tbm=isch>
> More:
> <https://www.google.com/search?q=torque+limiting+bit&tbm=isch>
> <https://www.google.com/search?q=torque+limiting+extension&tbm=isch>
> To make matters worse, stainless steels are susceptible to thread
> galling, which is almost as good as welding the threads. I saw some
> galling problems with 316 stainless in marine applications.
> Fortunately, the now common battery powered impact drivers were not
> available at the time and most fasteners could be un-frozen with a
> breaker bar. Trying to remove or insert a stuck fastener with an
> impact driver could easily snap off the fastener head.
>
> --
> Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
> PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
> Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
> Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."

<a7c46hld8734cbq7i0gg04c02isijnivm5@4ax.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=54866&group=rec.bicycles.tech#54866

 copy link   Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder6.news.weretis.net!news.misty.com!border2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!buffer2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!buffer1.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.supernews.com!news.supernews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2022 00:12:38 -0500
From: jef...@cruzio.com (Jeff Liebermann)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2022 22:12:36 -0700
Message-ID: <a7c46hld8734cbq7i0gg04c02isijnivm5@4ax.com>
References: <t3s7ba$vbo$1@dont-email.me> <gua36hhjbebv47po4ov1j2a5jpm96t1gb4@4ax.com> <b6b235c8-59e0-47e6-9e50-f79701ef2be0n@googlegroups.com>
User-Agent: ForteAgent/8.00.32.1272
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 51
X-Trace: sv3-HukS9nQYoYQp9rTPc96T/94A/KWoOpFUgAxZvxsrjOc9V6/h60E7tTL6dzUCE0zzpvBTta6AaV0KiQ2!E51xSVcAyE6Hy6A7Tx1lNTy2hI2tKuzLwzYx4ZFRxrKq7Kjyq7R3G+D1GKOXcNUhCAVFVoigm4jP!HDXQQcY=
X-Complaints-To: www.supernews.com/docs/abuse.html
X-DMCA-Complaints-To: www.supernews.com/docs/dmca.html
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly
X-Postfilter: 1.3.40
X-Original-Bytes: 3608
 by: Jeff Liebermann - Fri, 22 Apr 2022 05:12 UTC

On Thu, 21 Apr 2022 21:18:46 -0700 (PDT), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
<ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Thursday, April 21, 2022 at 2:37:46 PM UTC-5, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
>> My guess(tm) is one of
>> his customers probably tried to remove a stuck small stainless
>> fastener with an impact driver/drill or similar power tool. The peak
>> forces that such tools produce are sufficient to snap the head off any
>> small screw. I've done that a few times, but not on bicycles or
>> computers.

> Jeff, you don't use impact drivers on your computer screws?

Nope. I sometimes use a pneumatic screwdriver with a torque limiting
clutch. Basically, a powered torque wrench. I tried using an impact
driver only to remove screws. However, after forgetting to change the
direction of rotation caused it to snap off the screw head, I decided
it was too risky.

> Well, no wonder your computers are probably bursting into flames
> and getting viruses and spam.

None of my machine have those problems. However, my customers
sometime arrive with computers that were apparently sacrificed on a
barbeque altar to the computer gods. Viruses are no longer a problem
since I started putting N95 face masks over the microphones and
speakers. Vaccinations haven't been very effective, but transplanting
the operating system from Windows to Linux has been highly effective.
Like flies at a picnic, spam is now part of the working environment.

> You need to use an Ingersoll Rand air impact driver powered by
> a 2 stage air compressor putting out 175 psi and 24 CFM.
> Ingersoll Rand makes the air compressor too so you can get both
> together. Then your computer screws will be properly tightened.

I don't have any Ingersoll Rand air tools, but do have a nice set of
clone air tools. They work well on my Subaru, chainsaws and
generators. However, I now prefer to use one of several battery
powered DeWalt drivers. My single stage Sears 2HP air compressor
claims 135 psi max or 2.4 ft^3/min at 90 psi. Except for the
pneumatic screwdriver, I haven't used air tools on computers.

I haven't done much bicycle building or repair for several years. For
bicycles, I currently use whatever hand tool in nearest.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."

<2f1b3806-fc20-4d5a-9898-839738146eean@googlegroups.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=54875&group=rec.bicycles.tech#54875

 copy link   Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6214:c6a:b0:452:b9b:c68f with SMTP id t10-20020a0562140c6a00b004520b9bc68fmr3026458qvj.46.1650648192598;
Fri, 22 Apr 2022 10:23:12 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: by 2002:a54:469a:0:b0:322:9e32:e71a with SMTP id
k26-20020a54469a000000b003229e32e71amr6890753oic.282.1650648192367; Fri, 22
Apr 2022 10:23:12 -0700 (PDT)
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder6.news.weretis.net!news.misty.com!border2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2022 10:23:12 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <t3slmj$ftg$1@dont-email.me>
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=75.18.102.200; posting-account=ai195goAAAAWOHLnJWPRm0qjf_39qMws
NNTP-Posting-Host: 75.18.102.200
References: <t3s7ba$vbo$1@dont-email.me> <t3s8ot$a93$1@dont-email.me>
<2b8e5732-27dc-4afc-884f-7555a82a22c2n@googlegroups.com> <t3sg9v$7m0$1@dont-email.me>
<6d0199a8-2e38-4f10-9ec7-0c01d5fc6c2dn@googlegroups.com> <t3slmj$ftg$1@dont-email.me>
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <2f1b3806-fc20-4d5a-9898-839738146eean@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."
From: cyclin...@gmail.com (Tom Kunich)
Injection-Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2022 17:23:12 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Lines: 58
 by: Tom Kunich - Fri, 22 Apr 2022 17:23 UTC

On Thursday, April 21, 2022 at 3:26:36 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 4/21/2022 4:01 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Thursday, April 21, 2022 at 1:54:26 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >> On 4/21/2022 1:54 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>> On Thursday, April 21, 2022 at 11:45:53 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>> On 4/21/2022 1:21 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>>> "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength
> >>>>> applications..."
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I'm sure there are countless engineers who would be
> >>>>> surprised to read that blanket statement. They might ask
> >>>>> "_Which_ stainless steel? How brittle, under what
> >>>>> conditions? What sort of stresses qualify as
> >>>>> 'high-strength'? What sort of applications?"
> >>>>>
> >>>>> https://www.renehersecycles.com/just-a-bunch-of-bolts/
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Jan Heine has some good idea, but IMO he often goes off into
> >>>>> the weeds.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I can't remember the last time I broke a stainless steel
> >>>>> fastener on a bike. It may have never happened.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> The range of stainless alloys is wide and varied, which is
> >>>> why I ignored that comment.
> >>>
> >>> None of the stainless steels could be considered brittle by bicycle standards and stainless frames and forks have been built without much attention to the particular compound, Though brittleness usually goes along with the highest strength compounds which makes carbon steel more brittle. How many carbon steel frames or forks have you seen fail?
> >>>
> >> Many. Countless even. There are a LOT of 1010/1020 steel
> >> bicycles on earth.
> >
> > When you're talking a billion or more bicycles. 0.01% is still a million failed bicycles. And I'm talking about higher end bicycles. So if you don't personally see these failures, you certainly hear all about them.
> >
> 'Higher end' bicycles are not made of 1010 or 1020 steel.
> That was already true when I was born!
>
> https://onlinebicyclemuseum.co.uk/1953-raleigh-lenton-sports-reg-harris-road-model/
>
> Note 531 frame, not 1010 steel.
>
> Reg Harris not only was World Champion Sprinter in 1947, he
> set the 1000 meter record in 1953 on his Reynolds 531
> Raleigh and then used the same bicycle and his own same old
> legs to win British Sprint Gold in 1974 (so much for 'steel
> deterioration').

Although my memory of this isn't that hot but I'm fairly sure that LOTS of top end bike, especially made in Japan models were made from 1040 American steel and they performed very well. Track racing is EXTREMELY popular in Japan with very heavy betting and most of those bikes were constructed with straight gauge 1040 if memory serves.

Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."

<t3uqj2$rfm$1@dont-email.me>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=54877&group=rec.bicycles.tech#54877

 copy link   Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: am...@yellowjersey.org (AMuzi)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2022 13:02:10 -0500
Organization: Yellow Jersey, Ltd.
Lines: 61
Message-ID: <t3uqj2$rfm$1@dont-email.me>
References: <t3s7ba$vbo$1@dont-email.me> <t3s8ot$a93$1@dont-email.me> <2b8e5732-27dc-4afc-884f-7555a82a22c2n@googlegroups.com> <t3sg9v$7m0$1@dont-email.me> <6d0199a8-2e38-4f10-9ec7-0c01d5fc6c2dn@googlegroups.com> <t3slmj$ftg$1@dont-email.me> <2f1b3806-fc20-4d5a-9898-839738146eean@googlegroups.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Injection-Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2022 18:02:11 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: reader02.eternal-september.org; posting-host="834ce66e5a720554bc32c5774e53b4d9";
logging-data="28150"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1/lfmWcOJ8U3YtuELmHUQMI"
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:13.0) Gecko/20120604 Thunderbird/13.0
Cancel-Lock: sha1:m/to90D7YrXQZx2FGEf4bhjtNRo=
In-Reply-To: <2f1b3806-fc20-4d5a-9898-839738146eean@googlegroups.com>
 by: AMuzi - Fri, 22 Apr 2022 18:02 UTC

On 4/22/2022 12:23 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Thursday, April 21, 2022 at 3:26:36 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 4/21/2022 4:01 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> On Thursday, April 21, 2022 at 1:54:26 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 4/21/2022 1:54 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>> On Thursday, April 21, 2022 at 11:45:53 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>> On 4/21/2022 1:21 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>> "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength
>>>>>>> applications..."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm sure there are countless engineers who would be
>>>>>>> surprised to read that blanket statement. They might ask
>>>>>>> "_Which_ stainless steel? How brittle, under what
>>>>>>> conditions? What sort of stresses qualify as
>>>>>>> 'high-strength'? What sort of applications?"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.renehersecycles.com/just-a-bunch-of-bolts/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jan Heine has some good idea, but IMO he often goes off into
>>>>>>> the weeds.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I can't remember the last time I broke a stainless steel
>>>>>>> fastener on a bike. It may have never happened.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> The range of stainless alloys is wide and varied, which is
>>>>>> why I ignored that comment.
>>>>>
>>>>> None of the stainless steels could be considered brittle by bicycle standards and stainless frames and forks have been built without much attention to the particular compound, Though brittleness usually goes along with the highest strength compounds which makes carbon steel more brittle. How many carbon steel frames or forks have you seen fail?
>>>>>
>>>> Many. Countless even. There are a LOT of 1010/1020 steel
>>>> bicycles on earth.
>>>
>>> When you're talking a billion or more bicycles. 0.01% is still a million failed bicycles. And I'm talking about higher end bicycles. So if you don't personally see these failures, you certainly hear all about them.
>>>
>> 'Higher end' bicycles are not made of 1010 or 1020 steel.
>> That was already true when I was born!
>>
>> https://onlinebicyclemuseum.co.uk/1953-raleigh-lenton-sports-reg-harris-road-model/
>>
>> Note 531 frame, not 1010 steel.
>>
>> Reg Harris not only was World Champion Sprinter in 1947, he
>> set the 1000 meter record in 1953 on his Reynolds 531
>> Raleigh and then used the same bicycle and his own same old
>> legs to win British Sprint Gold in 1974 (so much for 'steel
>> deterioration').
>
> Although my memory of this isn't that hot but I'm fairly sure that LOTS of top end bike, especially made in Japan models were made from 1040 American steel and they performed very well. Track racing is EXTREMELY popular in Japan with very heavy betting and most of those bikes were constructed with straight gauge 1040 if memory serves.
>

That's not true.
Keirin only dates from the 1950s and it's always been only
premium high alloy seamless butted steel tube.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."

<15796340-45dd-4ae8-956b-c61f7611a002n@googlegroups.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=54879&group=rec.bicycles.tech#54879

 copy link   Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6214:e6a:b0:446:154a:7e02 with SMTP id jz10-20020a0562140e6a00b00446154a7e02mr4776891qvb.82.1650657752049;
Fri, 22 Apr 2022 13:02:32 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6871:87:b0:da:b3f:3208 with SMTP id
u7-20020a056871008700b000da0b3f3208mr2843375oaa.184.1650657750939; Fri, 22
Apr 2022 13:02:30 -0700 (PDT)
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder6.news.weretis.net!news.misty.com!border2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2022 13:02:30 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <t3uqj2$rfm$1@dont-email.me>
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=75.18.102.200; posting-account=ai195goAAAAWOHLnJWPRm0qjf_39qMws
NNTP-Posting-Host: 75.18.102.200
References: <t3s7ba$vbo$1@dont-email.me> <t3s8ot$a93$1@dont-email.me>
<2b8e5732-27dc-4afc-884f-7555a82a22c2n@googlegroups.com> <t3sg9v$7m0$1@dont-email.me>
<6d0199a8-2e38-4f10-9ec7-0c01d5fc6c2dn@googlegroups.com> <t3slmj$ftg$1@dont-email.me>
<2f1b3806-fc20-4d5a-9898-839738146eean@googlegroups.com> <t3uqj2$rfm$1@dont-email.me>
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <15796340-45dd-4ae8-956b-c61f7611a002n@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."
From: cyclin...@gmail.com (Tom Kunich)
Injection-Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2022 20:02:32 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Lines: 67
 by: Tom Kunich - Fri, 22 Apr 2022 20:02 UTC

On Friday, April 22, 2022 at 11:02:14 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 4/22/2022 12:23 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Thursday, April 21, 2022 at 3:26:36 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >> On 4/21/2022 4:01 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>> On Thursday, April 21, 2022 at 1:54:26 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>> On 4/21/2022 1:54 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>>> On Thursday, April 21, 2022 at 11:45:53 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>>>> On 4/21/2022 1:21 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>>>>> "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength
> >>>>>>> applications..."
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I'm sure there are countless engineers who would be
> >>>>>>> surprised to read that blanket statement. They might ask
> >>>>>>> "_Which_ stainless steel? How brittle, under what
> >>>>>>> conditions? What sort of stresses qualify as
> >>>>>>> 'high-strength'? What sort of applications?"
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> https://www.renehersecycles.com/just-a-bunch-of-bolts/
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Jan Heine has some good idea, but IMO he often goes off into
> >>>>>>> the weeds.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I can't remember the last time I broke a stainless steel
> >>>>>>> fastener on a bike. It may have never happened.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> The range of stainless alloys is wide and varied, which is
> >>>>>> why I ignored that comment.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> None of the stainless steels could be considered brittle by bicycle standards and stainless frames and forks have been built without much attention to the particular compound, Though brittleness usually goes along with the highest strength compounds which makes carbon steel more brittle. How many carbon steel frames or forks have you seen fail?
> >>>>>
> >>>> Many. Countless even. There are a LOT of 1010/1020 steel
> >>>> bicycles on earth.
> >>>
> >>> When you're talking a billion or more bicycles. 0.01% is still a million failed bicycles. And I'm talking about higher end bicycles. So if you don't personally see these failures, you certainly hear all about them.
> >>>
> >> 'Higher end' bicycles are not made of 1010 or 1020 steel.
> >> That was already true when I was born!
> >>
> >> https://onlinebicyclemuseum.co.uk/1953-raleigh-lenton-sports-reg-harris-road-model/
> >>
> >> Note 531 frame, not 1010 steel.
> >>
> >> Reg Harris not only was World Champion Sprinter in 1947, he
> >> set the 1000 meter record in 1953 on his Reynolds 531
> >> Raleigh and then used the same bicycle and his own same old
> >> legs to win British Sprint Gold in 1974 (so much for 'steel
> >> deterioration').
> >
> > Although my memory of this isn't that hot but I'm fairly sure that LOTS of top end bike, especially made in Japan models were made from 1040 American steel and they performed very well. Track racing is EXTREMELY popular in Japan with very heavy betting and most of those bikes were constructed with straight gauge 1040 if memory serves.
> >
> That's not true.
> Keirin only dates from the 1950s and it's always been only
> premium high alloy seamless butted steel tube.

I believe that the only difference between 1040 and True Temper 4130 is heat treatment.

Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."

<833102cd-01ee-4922-ae22-d8f3f74cd1a5n@googlegroups.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=54880&group=rec.bicycles.tech#54880

 copy link   Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6214:c23:b0:446:64d2:260c with SMTP id a3-20020a0562140c2300b0044664d2260cmr4904149qvd.26.1650659420262;
Fri, 22 Apr 2022 13:30:20 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6808:300a:b0:2f7:5d32:b67 with SMTP id
ay10-20020a056808300a00b002f75d320b67mr3114566oib.122.1650659420022; Fri, 22
Apr 2022 13:30:20 -0700 (PDT)
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder6.news.weretis.net!news.misty.com!border2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2022 13:30:19 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <t3uqj2$rfm$1@dont-email.me>
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=75.18.102.200; posting-account=ai195goAAAAWOHLnJWPRm0qjf_39qMws
NNTP-Posting-Host: 75.18.102.200
References: <t3s7ba$vbo$1@dont-email.me> <t3s8ot$a93$1@dont-email.me>
<2b8e5732-27dc-4afc-884f-7555a82a22c2n@googlegroups.com> <t3sg9v$7m0$1@dont-email.me>
<6d0199a8-2e38-4f10-9ec7-0c01d5fc6c2dn@googlegroups.com> <t3slmj$ftg$1@dont-email.me>
<2f1b3806-fc20-4d5a-9898-839738146eean@googlegroups.com> <t3uqj2$rfm$1@dont-email.me>
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <833102cd-01ee-4922-ae22-d8f3f74cd1a5n@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."
From: cyclin...@gmail.com (Tom Kunich)
Injection-Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2022 20:30:20 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Lines: 78
 by: Tom Kunich - Fri, 22 Apr 2022 20:30 UTC

On Friday, April 22, 2022 at 11:02:14 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 4/22/2022 12:23 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Thursday, April 21, 2022 at 3:26:36 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >> On 4/21/2022 4:01 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>> On Thursday, April 21, 2022 at 1:54:26 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>> On 4/21/2022 1:54 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>>> On Thursday, April 21, 2022 at 11:45:53 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>>>> On 4/21/2022 1:21 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>>>>> "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength
> >>>>>>> applications..."
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I'm sure there are countless engineers who would be
> >>>>>>> surprised to read that blanket statement. They might ask
> >>>>>>> "_Which_ stainless steel? How brittle, under what
> >>>>>>> conditions? What sort of stresses qualify as
> >>>>>>> 'high-strength'? What sort of applications?"
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> https://www.renehersecycles.com/just-a-bunch-of-bolts/
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Jan Heine has some good idea, but IMO he often goes off into
> >>>>>>> the weeds.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I can't remember the last time I broke a stainless steel
> >>>>>>> fastener on a bike. It may have never happened.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> The range of stainless alloys is wide and varied, which is
> >>>>>> why I ignored that comment.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> None of the stainless steels could be considered brittle by bicycle standards and stainless frames and forks have been built without much attention to the particular compound, Though brittleness usually goes along with the highest strength compounds which makes carbon steel more brittle. How many carbon steel frames or forks have you seen fail?
> >>>>>
> >>>> Many. Countless even. There are a LOT of 1010/1020 steel
> >>>> bicycles on earth.
> >>>
> >>> When you're talking a billion or more bicycles. 0.01% is still a million failed bicycles. And I'm talking about higher end bicycles. So if you don't personally see these failures, you certainly hear all about them.
> >>>
> >> 'Higher end' bicycles are not made of 1010 or 1020 steel.
> >> That was already true when I was born!
> >>
> >> https://onlinebicyclemuseum.co.uk/1953-raleigh-lenton-sports-reg-harris-road-model/
> >>
> >> Note 531 frame, not 1010 steel.
> >>
> >> Reg Harris not only was World Champion Sprinter in 1947, he
> >> set the 1000 meter record in 1953 on his Reynolds 531
> >> Raleigh and then used the same bicycle and his own same old
> >> legs to win British Sprint Gold in 1974 (so much for 'steel
> >> deterioration').
> >
> > Although my memory of this isn't that hot but I'm fairly sure that LOTS of top end bike, especially made in Japan models were made from 1040 American steel and they performed very well. Track racing is EXTREMELY popular in Japan with very heavy betting and most of those bikes were constructed with straight gauge 1040 if memory serves.
> >
> That's not true.
> Keirin only dates from the 1950s and it's always been only
> premium high alloy seamless butted steel tube.

I am trying to figure out what you mean. Of COURSE Keirin started in the 50's. Japan was in a state that made England look like each a millionaire. They would have starved to death without American food supplies. As far as double butting seamless tubes. I don't know what you mean by that. 1040 was seamless and could be butted. But it wasn't necessary since all it did was lighten the frameset very slightly. It was more for making the handling of a road bike more responsive by giving it more flexibility. And it was the same as Columus Cromor which is what composed almost all chainstays and seattubes. Columbus Aelle and Cromor were the MANORITY of European bikes and they were straight gauge. When double blind testing of bike frames were made with all of the top end Columbus tubing the plain old double butted Thron came out on top of the SL, SLX and TSX but racing advertising made huge demands for SL and SLX.

Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."

<t3v3bo$2jn$1@dont-email.me>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=54881&group=rec.bicycles.tech#54881

 copy link   Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: am...@yellowjersey.org (AMuzi)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2022 15:31:50 -0500
Organization: Yellow Jersey, Ltd.
Lines: 70
Message-ID: <t3v3bo$2jn$1@dont-email.me>
References: <t3s7ba$vbo$1@dont-email.me> <t3s8ot$a93$1@dont-email.me> <2b8e5732-27dc-4afc-884f-7555a82a22c2n@googlegroups.com> <t3sg9v$7m0$1@dont-email.me> <6d0199a8-2e38-4f10-9ec7-0c01d5fc6c2dn@googlegroups.com> <t3slmj$ftg$1@dont-email.me> <2f1b3806-fc20-4d5a-9898-839738146eean@googlegroups.com> <t3uqj2$rfm$1@dont-email.me> <15796340-45dd-4ae8-956b-c61f7611a002n@googlegroups.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Injection-Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2022 20:31:52 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: reader02.eternal-september.org; posting-host="834ce66e5a720554bc32c5774e53b4d9";
logging-data="2679"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX19y4RKYn/mQsZVKW9M4EXmT"
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:13.0) Gecko/20120604 Thunderbird/13.0
Cancel-Lock: sha1:prfPtocQmh1jSyI7oJB1be3F7tU=
In-Reply-To: <15796340-45dd-4ae8-956b-c61f7611a002n@googlegroups.com>
 by: AMuzi - Fri, 22 Apr 2022 20:31 UTC

On 4/22/2022 3:02 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Friday, April 22, 2022 at 11:02:14 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 4/22/2022 12:23 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> On Thursday, April 21, 2022 at 3:26:36 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 4/21/2022 4:01 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>> On Thursday, April 21, 2022 at 1:54:26 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>> On 4/21/2022 1:54 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>> On Thursday, April 21, 2022 at 11:45:53 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 4/21/2022 1:21 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>> "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength
>>>>>>>>> applications..."
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'm sure there are countless engineers who would be
>>>>>>>>> surprised to read that blanket statement. They might ask
>>>>>>>>> "_Which_ stainless steel? How brittle, under what
>>>>>>>>> conditions? What sort of stresses qualify as
>>>>>>>>> 'high-strength'? What sort of applications?"
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://www.renehersecycles.com/just-a-bunch-of-bolts/
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Jan Heine has some good idea, but IMO he often goes off into
>>>>>>>>> the weeds.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I can't remember the last time I broke a stainless steel
>>>>>>>>> fastener on a bike. It may have never happened.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The range of stainless alloys is wide and varied, which is
>>>>>>>> why I ignored that comment.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> None of the stainless steels could be considered brittle by bicycle standards and stainless frames and forks have been built without much attention to the particular compound, Though brittleness usually goes along with the highest strength compounds which makes carbon steel more brittle. How many carbon steel frames or forks have you seen fail?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Many. Countless even. There are a LOT of 1010/1020 steel
>>>>>> bicycles on earth.
>>>>>
>>>>> When you're talking a billion or more bicycles. 0.01% is still a million failed bicycles. And I'm talking about higher end bicycles. So if you don't personally see these failures, you certainly hear all about them.
>>>>>
>>>> 'Higher end' bicycles are not made of 1010 or 1020 steel.
>>>> That was already true when I was born!
>>>>
>>>> https://onlinebicyclemuseum.co.uk/1953-raleigh-lenton-sports-reg-harris-road-model/
>>>>
>>>> Note 531 frame, not 1010 steel.
>>>>
>>>> Reg Harris not only was World Champion Sprinter in 1947, he
>>>> set the 1000 meter record in 1953 on his Reynolds 531
>>>> Raleigh and then used the same bicycle and his own same old
>>>> legs to win British Sprint Gold in 1974 (so much for 'steel
>>>> deterioration').
>>>
>>> Although my memory of this isn't that hot but I'm fairly sure that LOTS of top end bike, especially made in Japan models were made from 1040 American steel and they performed very well. Track racing is EXTREMELY popular in Japan with very heavy betting and most of those bikes were constructed with straight gauge 1040 if memory serves.
>>>
>> That's not true.
>> Keirin only dates from the 1950s and it's always been only
>> premium high alloy seamless butted steel tube.
>
> I believe that the only difference between 1040 and True Temper 4130 is heat treatment.
>

https://www.theworldmaterial.com/astm-sae-aisi-1020-carbon-steel/#Chemical_Composition

https://www.theworldmaterial.com/sae-aisi-4130-chromoly-steel-alloy-material/#AISI_SAE_4130_Chemical_Composition

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."

<t3v3k6$4gu$1@dont-email.me>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=54882&group=rec.bicycles.tech#54882

 copy link   Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: am...@yellowjersey.org (AMuzi)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2022 15:36:20 -0500
Organization: Yellow Jersey, Ltd.
Lines: 70
Message-ID: <t3v3k6$4gu$1@dont-email.me>
References: <t3s7ba$vbo$1@dont-email.me> <t3s8ot$a93$1@dont-email.me> <2b8e5732-27dc-4afc-884f-7555a82a22c2n@googlegroups.com> <t3sg9v$7m0$1@dont-email.me> <6d0199a8-2e38-4f10-9ec7-0c01d5fc6c2dn@googlegroups.com> <t3slmj$ftg$1@dont-email.me> <2f1b3806-fc20-4d5a-9898-839738146eean@googlegroups.com> <t3uqj2$rfm$1@dont-email.me> <15796340-45dd-4ae8-956b-c61f7611a002n@googlegroups.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Injection-Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2022 20:36:22 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: reader02.eternal-september.org; posting-host="834ce66e5a720554bc32c5774e53b4d9";
logging-data="4638"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1+X/3piFzCaq3fQUDamVIKG"
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:13.0) Gecko/20120604 Thunderbird/13.0
Cancel-Lock: sha1:XgL//gxpfFhXi3zyLRWMRt2Yqpg=
In-Reply-To: <15796340-45dd-4ae8-956b-c61f7611a002n@googlegroups.com>
 by: AMuzi - Fri, 22 Apr 2022 20:36 UTC

On 4/22/2022 3:02 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Friday, April 22, 2022 at 11:02:14 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 4/22/2022 12:23 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> On Thursday, April 21, 2022 at 3:26:36 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 4/21/2022 4:01 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>> On Thursday, April 21, 2022 at 1:54:26 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>> On 4/21/2022 1:54 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>> On Thursday, April 21, 2022 at 11:45:53 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 4/21/2022 1:21 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>> "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength
>>>>>>>>> applications..."
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'm sure there are countless engineers who would be
>>>>>>>>> surprised to read that blanket statement. They might ask
>>>>>>>>> "_Which_ stainless steel? How brittle, under what
>>>>>>>>> conditions? What sort of stresses qualify as
>>>>>>>>> 'high-strength'? What sort of applications?"
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://www.renehersecycles.com/just-a-bunch-of-bolts/
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Jan Heine has some good idea, but IMO he often goes off into
>>>>>>>>> the weeds.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I can't remember the last time I broke a stainless steel
>>>>>>>>> fastener on a bike. It may have never happened.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The range of stainless alloys is wide and varied, which is
>>>>>>>> why I ignored that comment.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> None of the stainless steels could be considered brittle by bicycle standards and stainless frames and forks have been built without much attention to the particular compound, Though brittleness usually goes along with the highest strength compounds which makes carbon steel more brittle. How many carbon steel frames or forks have you seen fail?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Many. Countless even. There are a LOT of 1010/1020 steel
>>>>>> bicycles on earth.
>>>>>
>>>>> When you're talking a billion or more bicycles. 0.01% is still a million failed bicycles. And I'm talking about higher end bicycles. So if you don't personally see these failures, you certainly hear all about them.
>>>>>
>>>> 'Higher end' bicycles are not made of 1010 or 1020 steel.
>>>> That was already true when I was born!
>>>>
>>>> https://onlinebicyclemuseum.co.uk/1953-raleigh-lenton-sports-reg-harris-road-model/
>>>>
>>>> Note 531 frame, not 1010 steel.
>>>>
>>>> Reg Harris not only was World Champion Sprinter in 1947, he
>>>> set the 1000 meter record in 1953 on his Reynolds 531
>>>> Raleigh and then used the same bicycle and his own same old
>>>> legs to win British Sprint Gold in 1974 (so much for 'steel
>>>> deterioration').
>>>
>>> Although my memory of this isn't that hot but I'm fairly sure that LOTS of top end bike, especially made in Japan models were made from 1040 American steel and they performed very well. Track racing is EXTREMELY popular in Japan with very heavy betting and most of those bikes were constructed with straight gauge 1040 if memory serves.
>>>
>> That's not true.
>> Keirin only dates from the 1950s and it's always been only
>> premium high alloy seamless butted steel tube.
>
> I believe that the only difference between 1040 and True Temper 4130 is heat treatment.
>

'Carbon steel' used in bicycles usually refers to AISI 1010
and 1020. I am unfamiliar with AISI 1040. AFAIK it hasn't
been used for bicycle tube, or at least not commonly. Can
you recall a product made from 1040?

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Pages:12345
server_pubkey.txt

rocksolid light 0.9.7
clearnet tor