On Wednesday, April 27, 2022 at 10:57:47 AM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 4/27/2022 10:12 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Tuesday, April 26, 2022 at 8:03:53 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >>
> >> I was once deeply engaged with a chart in my Machinery's
> >> Handbook when my bookkeeper walked in and asked, "Are you
> >> reading the Bible?"
> >
> > I no longer have my machinists manual since it is so far outdated. If John got one in high school that is is essentially useful only for older materials. ...
>
> If Tom thinks the Machinery's Handbook is outdated, it proves he has
> never made enough use of the book to know what it contains.
>
> Perhaps he's confusing the Machinery's Handbook with some other
> unspecified "machinists manual." If so, that's yet another example of
> him speaking authoritatively from a position of ignorance.
>
Didn't you read the press releases Frank? The laws of physics were dis proven by tommy during his (alleged) stint as a machinist in between high school and the air force* which rendered all the old reference books no longer valid.

*So now, tommy had hed several machinist poistions in between high school and the air force. That's a bit of an interesting change, since he's previously insisted that he quit high school to join the air force. Funny how tommy's stories always change to fit his newest claims of expertise.

On 4/27/2022 8:23 PM, John B. wrote:
>
> Gee Tommy, going on about the Machinery's Hand book I had in High
> School. Sorry Tommy I didn't have a Handbook in those days, they were
> too expensive. The Shop had a copy.

They were expensive. I'd become familiar with the book while still in
engineering school. When I started work as a plant engineer, the
management asked me if there were any reference books they could buy for
me. I asked for the _Machinery's Handbook_ and the _Standard Handbook
for Mechanical Engineering_ (AKA Mark's Handbook).

I still have them and still use them on occasion.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Wednesday, April 27, 2022 at 7:49:44 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 4/27/2022 9:12 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Tuesday, April 26, 2022 at 8:03:53 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >> On 4/26/2022 6:01 PM, John B. wrote:
> >>> On Tue, 26 Apr 2022 07:18:58 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
> >>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On Monday, April 25, 2022 at 6:16:43 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>>> On 4/25/2022 7:36 PM, John B. wrote:
> >>>>>> On Mon, 25 Apr 2022 16:53:30 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
> >>>>>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Monday, April 25, 2022 at 1:10:30 PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On Thursday, April 21, 2022 at 8:21:33 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications...."
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> I'm sure there are countless engineers who would be surprised to read
> >>>>>>>>> that blanket statement. They might ask "_Which_ stainless steel? How
> >>>>>>>>> brittle, under what conditions? What sort of stresses qualify as
> >>>>>>>>> 'high-strength'? What sort of applications?"
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> https://www.renehersecycles.com/just-a-bunch-of-bolts/
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Jan Heine has some good idea, but IMO he often goes off into the weeds.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> I can't remember the last time I broke a stainless steel fastener on a
> >>>>>>>>> bike. It may have never happened.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>> - Frank Krygowski
> >>>>>>>> Pff... as if the bolts on a bicycle are in the high end application category.
> >>>>>>>> I read the article and what I came up with is 'what a snob...' YMMV.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Steel is iron with carbon in it. It was originated simply by smelting iron in coal fired ovens. Crying about chromium or molybdenum added to the mixture make pretty minor improvements. (for instance; adding chromium doesn't improve the strength but the hardness or rigidity of the material. Stainless is largely iron with a larger percentage of other materials such as aluminum, nickel, vanadium etc. Stainless is a material you HAVE to know how to work. Overheating and quenching like you would some steels causes it to crystalize and become brittle. You can see this has occurred in the manufacture of screws in particular since they turn these things out so rapidly that they can overheat the material and then it can be quenched coming off of the tool because they are in an oil bath, Then when you tighten the bolt it simply breaks. Its been far too long since I dealt with this but I seem to remember that you can heat it up to something like a thousand degrees F and let it stay the
> re
> >>
> >>> f
> >>>>> or
> >>>>>>> some time and then allow it to air cool and it forms a different sort of austenitic structure more like steel and so it is much stronger.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> https://www.theworldmaterial.com/aisi-316-ss316-stainless-steel-properties-composition/#Hardening
> >>>>>> "Type 316 SS cannot be hardened by heat treating"
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> OK, fine.
> >>>>> But any claim about 'stainless' generally is pointless- it's
> >>>>> a big group of wildly different materials. Some examples:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> https://www.mori2a.com/en/dont-stop/news/prodottiproducts/stainless-steel-200-series-in-cr-mn-a-safe-alternative-to-304/
> >>>>>
> >>>>> https://www.searchsteel.info/2011/03/stainless-technical-standards-and.html
> >>>>
> >>>> As I've said before, it is impossible to say absolutely anything without that moron John Googling away and finding an exception to a rule and then passing it off as the rule rather than the exception. He is like having a parrot around the house that only knows a limited number of words. Hey John, I guess I just gave you the bird.
> >>>
> >>> Well, Tommy, I served an apprenticeship as a Machinist and "had my
> >>> papers" as a Journeyman Machinist by the time I completed High School..
> >>> Now tell us your qualifications,
> >>>
> >>> And of course I "look things up" as does every other competent
> >>> individual. The Machinery's Handbook, for example, has more then 4,000
> >>> pages of data (the Christian Bible has about 1,500 pages) and is
> >>> commonly used as a reference in the metal working trades.
> >>>
> >> Good comparison.
> >> I was once deeply engaged with a chart in my Machinery's
> >> Handbook when my bookkeeper walked in and asked, "Are you
> >> reading the Bible?"
> >
> > I no longer have my machinists manual since it is so far outdated. If John got one in high school that is is essentially useful only for older materials. I too was a machinist in high school and in several early jobs after getting out of the Air Force. If he is believing himself to be plausible after his claims that I was never in the Air Force after his line of crap about his assignments (Uh - he was in Japan in 1954 so he is absolutely positive that Japan wasn't heavily bombed - and this from a supposed Air Force crew chief who worked for men who bombed Japan) So he wants us to believe that he was a machinist as a youth. Well, were he a qualified machinist they would have a job for him in the Air Force a great deal more responsible than crew chief on a dead-in-the-water obsolete bomber. You don't take a qualified machinist and make him a paper shuffler.
> >
> > One would think that after comments from Frank who at least taught materials technology he couldn't try passing BS off as information.
> >
> Outdated? WTF?
>
> When did cutting speeds, material composition, tap drill
> sizes and weight per square foot for various gauges of steel
> change?? I must have missed that.

Just so we're on the same page Andrew, John was speaking about being a machinist in the late 40's. If you don't think that thinks have changed why is the latest copy of the Machinery Manual dated March of 2020? Someone sent me that and gave me a laugh saying that the loud mouth 5 are nothing more than stalkers.

Definition of stalker? "a person who harasses or persecutes someone with unwanted and obsessive attention" I have to admit that they are most assuredly obsessive. John is almost sexually attentive.

On 4/28/2022 2:48 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> Just so we're on the same page Andrew, John was speaking about being a machinist in the late 40's. If you don't think that thinks have changed why is the latest copy of the Machinery Manual dated March of 2020?

There are always updates to any reference book. I have two editions of
the Machinery's Handbook, one from the 1970s and the other from around
2005 or so. Yes, new material gets added. Occasionally, really old
material is removed. But the great bulk of the material in those
handbooks is still the same. Thread dimensions, strength of materials
principles, details of bearings, gears, chains, fasteners etc. stay
consistent.

Tom's lack of awareness shows he's not used the handbook.

> Someone sent me that and gave me a laugh ...

Nobody sent it to you. Why would anyone?

The _only_ possible reason would be that they were too embarrassed to
agree with you in public - which would mean they know how wrong you are.
It's a catch-22.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Thu, 28 Apr 2022 14:32:53 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 4/27/2022 8:23 PM, John B. wrote:
>>
>> Gee Tommy, going on about the Machinery's Hand book I had in High
>> School. Sorry Tommy I didn't have a Handbook in those days, they were
>> too expensive. The Shop had a copy.
>
>They were expensive. I'd become familiar with the book while still in
>engineering school. When I started work as a plant engineer, the
>management asked me if there were any reference books they could buy for
>me. I asked for the _Machinery's Handbook_ and the _Standard Handbook
>for Mechanical Engineering_ (AKA Mark's Handbook).
>
>I still have them and still use them on occasion.

I seem to remember $100 a copy but I'm doubtful that was right as $100
used to be a fortune. The first copy I actually owned was a "rip-off"
copy printed in India, for which I paid $25.00.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Thu, 28 Apr 2022 04:42:34 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
<funkmasterxx@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, April 27, 2022 at 10:57:47 AM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 4/27/2022 10:12 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> > On Tuesday, April 26, 2022 at 8:03:53 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> >>
>> >> I was once deeply engaged with a chart in my Machinery's
>> >> Handbook when my bookkeeper walked in and asked, "Are you
>> >> reading the Bible?"
>> >
>> > I no longer have my machinists manual since it is so far outdated. If John got one in high school that is is essentially useful only for older materials. ...
>>
>> If Tom thinks the Machinery's Handbook is outdated, it proves he has
>> never made enough use of the book to know what it contains.
>>
>> Perhaps he's confusing the Machinery's Handbook with some other
>> unspecified "machinists manual." If so, that's yet another example of
>> him speaking authoritatively from a position of ignorance.
>>
>Didn't you read the press releases Frank? The laws of physics were dis proven by tommy during his (alleged) stint as a machinist in between high school and the air force* which rendered all the old reference books no longer valid.
>
>*So now, tommy had hed several machinist poistions in between high school and the air force. That's a bit of an interesting change, since he's previously insisted that he quit high school to join the air force. Funny how tommy's stories always change to fit his newest claims of expertise.

Well, when you've been a failure all your life what else can you do
and Tommy failed to complete high school, failed in his Air Force
service, failed to keep a job more then a short, and even failed in
his marriage.

A normal person would just yawn and say' Well that's life". Frank,
for example, was not able to design the Brooklyn Bridge, or the Eiffel
Tower, but went on with his life, while Tommy sense of failure was so
great that he has developed a dementia wherein he IS the hero. He DID
do wonderful things, He IS all knowing and all seeing.

In short, Tommy undoubtedly believes, in spite of any and all evidence
to the contrary, that he really did all these remarkable things that
he tells us about.

In extreme cases his problems are referred to as "insanity".
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Thu, 28 Apr 2022 11:48:27 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, April 27, 2022 at 7:49:44 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 4/27/2022 9:12 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> > On Tuesday, April 26, 2022 at 8:03:53 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> >> On 4/26/2022 6:01 PM, John B. wrote:
>> >>> On Tue, 26 Apr 2022 07:18:58 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
>> >>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> On Monday, April 25, 2022 at 6:16:43 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> >>>>> On 4/25/2022 7:36 PM, John B. wrote:
>> >>>>>> On Mon, 25 Apr 2022 16:53:30 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
>> >>>>>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> On Monday, April 25, 2022 at 1:10:30 PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
>> >>>>>>>> On Thursday, April 21, 2022 at 8:21:33 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>> "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> I'm sure there are countless engineers who would be surprised to read
>> >>>>>>>>> that blanket statement. They might ask "_Which_ stainless steel? How
>> >>>>>>>>> brittle, under what conditions? What sort of stresses qualify as
>> >>>>>>>>> 'high-strength'? What sort of applications?"
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> https://www.renehersecycles.com/just-a-bunch-of-bolts/
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> Jan Heine has some good idea, but IMO he often goes off into the weeds.
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> I can't remember the last time I broke a stainless steel fastener on a
>> >>>>>>>>> bike. It may have never happened.
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> --
>> >>>>>>>>> - Frank Krygowski
>> >>>>>>>> Pff... as if the bolts on a bicycle are in the high end application category.
>> >>>>>>>> I read the article and what I came up with is 'what a snob...' YMMV.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Steel is iron with carbon in it. It was originated simply by smelting iron in coal fired ovens. Crying about chromium or molybdenum added to the mixture make pretty minor improvements. (for instance; adding chromium doesn't improve the strength but the hardness or rigidity of the material. Stainless is largely iron with a larger percentage of other materials such as aluminum, nickel, vanadium etc. Stainless is a material you HAVE to know how to work. Overheating and quenching like you would some steels causes it to crystalize and become brittle. You can see this has occurred in the manufacture of screws in particular since they turn these things out so rapidly that they can overheat the material and then it can be quenched coming off of the tool because they are in an oil bath, Then when you tighten the bolt it simply breaks. Its been far too long since I dealt with this but I seem to remember that you can heat it up to something like a thousand degrees F and let it stay
>the
>> re
>> >>
>> >>> f
>> >>>>> or
>> >>>>>>> some time and then allow it to air cool and it forms a different sort of austenitic structure more like steel and so it is much stronger.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> https://www.theworldmaterial.com/aisi-316-ss316-stainless-steel-properties-composition/#Hardening
>> >>>>>> "Type 316 SS cannot be hardened by heat treating"
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>> OK, fine.
>> >>>>> But any claim about 'stainless' generally is pointless- it's
>> >>>>> a big group of wildly different materials. Some examples:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> https://www.mori2a.com/en/dont-stop/news/prodottiproducts/stainless-steel-200-series-in-cr-mn-a-safe-alternative-to-304/
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> https://www.searchsteel.info/2011/03/stainless-technical-standards-and.html
>> >>>>
>> >>>> As I've said before, it is impossible to say absolutely anything without that moron John Googling away and finding an exception to a rule and then passing it off as the rule rather than the exception. He is like having a parrot around the house that only knows a limited number of words. Hey John, I guess I just gave you the bird.
>> >>>
>> >>> Well, Tommy, I served an apprenticeship as a Machinist and "had my
>> >>> papers" as a Journeyman Machinist by the time I completed High School.
>> >>> Now tell us your qualifications,
>> >>>
>> >>> And of course I "look things up" as does every other competent
>> >>> individual. The Machinery's Handbook, for example, has more then 4,000
>> >>> pages of data (the Christian Bible has about 1,500 pages) and is
>> >>> commonly used as a reference in the metal working trades.
>> >>>
>> >> Good comparison.
>> >> I was once deeply engaged with a chart in my Machinery's
>> >> Handbook when my bookkeeper walked in and asked, "Are you
>> >> reading the Bible?"
>> >
>> > I no longer have my machinists manual since it is so far outdated. If John got one in high school that is is essentially useful only for older materials. I too was a machinist in high school and in several early jobs after getting out of the Air Force. If he is believing himself to be plausible after his claims that I was never in the Air Force after his line of crap about his assignments (Uh - he was in Japan in 1954 so he is absolutely positive that Japan wasn't heavily bombed - and this from a supposed Air Force crew chief who worked for men who bombed Japan) So he wants us to believe that he was a machinist as a youth. Well, were he a qualified machinist they would have a job for him in the Air Force a great deal more responsible than crew chief on a dead-in-the-water obsolete bomber. You don't take a qualified machinist and make him a paper shuffler.
>> >
>> > One would think that after comments from Frank who at least taught materials technology he couldn't try passing BS off as information.
>> >
>> Outdated? WTF?
>>
>> When did cutting speeds, material composition, tap drill
>> sizes and weight per square foot for various gauges of steel
>> change?? I must have missed that.
>
>Just so we're on the same page Andrew, John was speaking about being a machinist in the late 40's. If you don't think that thinks have changed why is the latest copy of the Machinery Manual dated March of 2020? Someone sent me that and gave me a laugh saying that the loud mouth 5 are nothing more than stalkers.
>
>Definition of stalker? "a person who harasses or persecutes someone with unwanted and obsessive attention" I have to admit that they are most assuredly obsessive. John is almost sexually attentive.

"sexually attentive" Oh, I like that. Of course I've been married to
my current wife for 50 years but I suppose anything is possible....

But, Good Lord! Have you ever seen a picture of our boy Tommy?
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Thu, 28 Apr 2022 14:32:53 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>They were expensive.

$120. They're still expensive:
<https://books.industrialpress.com/machinery-handbook/>
<https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/machinerys-handbook-toolbox-erik-oberg/1136199019>

However, there are older copyright violations available for download:
29th
<https://www.vtc1.org/cms/lib/PA03000913/Centricity/Domain/21/Machinerys%20Handbook%2029th%20Edition.pdf>
27th
<http://library.uc.edu.kh/userfiles/pdf/19.Machinery%27s%20handbook.pdf>

>I'd become familiar with the book while still in
>engineering school. When I started work as a plant engineer, the
>management asked me if there were any reference books they could buy for
>me. I asked for the _Machinery's Handbook_ and the _Standard Handbook
>for Mechanical Engineering_ (AKA Mark's Handbook).
>
>I still have them and still use them on occasion.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 06:17:43 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
wrote:

>I seem to remember $100 a copy but I'm doubtful that was right as $100
>used to be a fortune. The first copy I actually owned was a "rip-off"
>copy printed in India, for which I paid $25.00.

My 1972 19th edition Machinery Handbook shows $19 on the sacrificial
outer cover.

I think I know how they priced the current edition. Using an online
US inflation calculator:
<https://www.usinflationcalculator.com>
$19 in 1972 is worth $131 today. That's fairly close to today's $120
price.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Thu, 28 Apr 2022 11:48:27 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>Someone sent me that and gave me a laugh saying that the loud mouth 5 are nothing more than stalkers.

I would say the five are much more than stalkers. We can read. We
can write. We can do proper fact checking. We use logic, Google
search, and Wikipedia. We value the truth. We don't appreciate
compulsive liars. I guess I should point out that all the "stalking"
is in response to your erroneous and incorrect postings. If you were
more accurate and logical, there would for a response.

>Definition of stalker? "a person who harasses or persecutes someone with unwanted and obsessive attention" I have to admit that they are most assuredly obsessive. John is almost sexually attentive.

Attention. Isn't that what you want? Isn't that why you post all
those "hey look at me..." messages to RBT? If you want to feel like
someone important, getting attention is probably a good first step. I
just wish you would provide something worth reading. I suspect that
the reason you make so many mistakes is that facts do not gain as much
attention, while mistakes get immediate attention and copious replies.
When you want an attention fix, you make intentional mistakes.

Incidentally, In April 2020,when you still had your Yahoo.com email
address, I sent you an email. I received in return a detailed
Covid-19 amazing facts and conspiracies rant, which ignored everything
I wrote. Waste of time. I never bothered to send you email after
that.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 4/28/2022 8:31 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Thu, 28 Apr 2022 14:32:53 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> They were expensive.
>
> $120. They're still expensive:
> <https://books.industrialpress.com/machinery-handbook/>
> <https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/machinerys-handbook-toolbox-erik-oberg/1136199019>
>
> However, there are older copyright violations available for download:
> 29th
> <https://www.vtc1.org/cms/lib/PA03000913/Centricity/Domain/21/Machinerys%20Handbook%2029th%20Edition.pdf>
> 27th
> <http://library.uc.edu.kh/userfiles/pdf/19.Machinery%27s%20handbook.pdf>
>
>> I'd become familiar with the book while still in
>> engineering school. When I started work as a plant engineer, the
>> management asked me if there were any reference books they could buy for
>> me. I asked for the _Machinery's Handbook_ and the _Standard Handbook
>> for Mechanical Engineering_ (AKA Mark's Handbook).
>>
>> I still have them and still use them on occasion.
>
>
Older editions are plentiful from under $25:
https://www.alibris.com/Machinerys-Handbook/book/4085822?qsort=p&matches=10

https://books.industrialpress.com/history-of-machinerys-handbook/

Even those of us blessed with good memory need the
Handbook's tables regularly. While I'm sure useful
information has been added to later editions, I haven't seen
any deficiency in my 19th Edition, note reader comments on
this page:

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2798794-machinery-s-handbook

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Thu, 28 Apr 2022 21:44:26 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 4/28/2022 8:31 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> On Thu, 28 Apr 2022 14:32:53 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> They were expensive.
>>
>> $120. They're still expensive:
>> <https://books.industrialpress.com/machinery-handbook/>
>> <https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/machinerys-handbook-toolbox-erik-oberg/1136199019>
>>
>> However, there are older copyright violations available for download:
>> 29th
>> <https://www.vtc1.org/cms/lib/PA03000913/Centricity/Domain/21/Machinerys%20Handbook%2029th%20Edition.pdf>
>> 27th
>> <http://library.uc.edu.kh/userfiles/pdf/19.Machinery%27s%20handbook.pdf>
>>
>>> I'd become familiar with the book while still in
>>> engineering school. When I started work as a plant engineer, the
>>> management asked me if there were any reference books they could buy for
>>> me. I asked for the _Machinery's Handbook_ and the _Standard Handbook
>>> for Mechanical Engineering_ (AKA Mark's Handbook).
>>>
>>> I still have them and still use them on occasion.
>>
>>
>Older editions are plentiful from under $25:
>https://www.alibris.com/Machinerys-Handbook/book/4085822?qsort=p&matches=10
>
>https://books.industrialpress.com/history-of-machinerys-handbook/
>
>Even those of us blessed with good memory need the
>Handbook's tables regularly. While I'm sure useful
>information has been added to later editions, I haven't seen
>any deficiency in my 19th Edition, note reader comments on
>this page:
>
>https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2798794-machinery-s-handbook

Working from memory it seems that my use of the Machinery's hand book
was usually to figure out what gear cutter to use or what was the
standard clearance when machining a thread, or something of that
nature.

Long story:

When I crossed over from an airplane mechanic to a Machinist it was in
conjunction with a transfer from Bangor Maine to Barksdale AFB in
Louisiana so when I arrived at the new shop I was neither fish nor
fowl, I was a NCO but with an apprentice skill level and I'm sure that
the Shop Chief viewed me with a certain amount of suspicions.

Anyway, the first job he gave me was some extension screws for under
wing jacks - probably 3" in diameter, 24 inches long, with square
threads.I'm cutting the threads on the first one and the Shop Chief
comes over and says, "looks you are cutting a lot of clearance on
those threads", and I replied, "Well the Machinery's Handbook says 10
thousands clearance, or whatever it was." The shop chief looked at me
for a bit and says, "You've done this before", so I told him that I
had completed my apprenticeship and we got along pretty well after
that.

The moral here is that the Hand Book can get you out of all sorts of
tight corners (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 1:48:29 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, April 27, 2022 at 7:49:44 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > On 4/27/2022 9:12 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, April 26, 2022 at 8:03:53 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > >> On 4/26/2022 6:01 PM, John B. wrote:
> > >>> On Tue, 26 Apr 2022 07:18:58 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
> > >>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>> On Monday, April 25, 2022 at 6:16:43 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > >>>>> On 4/25/2022 7:36 PM, John B. wrote:
> > >>>>>> On Mon, 25 Apr 2022 16:53:30 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
> > >>>>>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> On Monday, April 25, 2022 at 1:10:30 PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > >>>>>>>> On Thursday, April 21, 2022 at 8:21:33 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>> "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> I'm sure there are countless engineers who would be surprised to read
> > >>>>>>>>> that blanket statement. They might ask "_Which_ stainless steel? How
> > >>>>>>>>> brittle, under what conditions? What sort of stresses qualify as
> > >>>>>>>>> 'high-strength'? What sort of applications?"
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> https://www.renehersecycles.com/just-a-bunch-of-bolts/
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> Jan Heine has some good idea, but IMO he often goes off into the weeds.
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> I can't remember the last time I broke a stainless steel fastener on a
> > >>>>>>>>> bike. It may have never happened.
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> --
> > >>>>>>>>> - Frank Krygowski
> > >>>>>>>> Pff... as if the bolts on a bicycle are in the high end application category.
> > >>>>>>>> I read the article and what I came up with is 'what a snob...' YMMV.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Steel is iron with carbon in it. It was originated simply by smelting iron in coal fired ovens. Crying about chromium or molybdenum added to the mixture make pretty minor improvements. (for instance; adding chromium doesn't improve the strength but the hardness or rigidity of the material. Stainless is largely iron with a larger percentage of other materials such as aluminum, nickel, vanadium etc. Stainless is a material you HAVE to know how to work. Overheating and quenching like you would some steels causes it to crystalize and become brittle. You can see this has occurred in the manufacture of screws in particular since they turn these things out so rapidly that they can overheat the material and then it can be quenched coming off of the tool because they are in an oil bath, Then when you tighten the bolt it simply breaks. Its been far too long since I dealt with this but I seem to remember that you can heat it up to something like a thousand degrees F and let it stay the
> > re
> > >>
> > >>> f
> > >>>>> or
> > >>>>>>> some time and then allow it to air cool and it forms a different sort of austenitic structure more like steel and so it is much stronger.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> https://www.theworldmaterial.com/aisi-316-ss316-stainless-steel-properties-composition/#Hardening
> > >>>>>> "Type 316 SS cannot be hardened by heat treating"
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>> OK, fine.
> > >>>>> But any claim about 'stainless' generally is pointless- it's
> > >>>>> a big group of wildly different materials. Some examples:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> https://www.mori2a.com/en/dont-stop/news/prodottiproducts/stainless-steel-200-series-in-cr-mn-a-safe-alternative-to-304/
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> https://www.searchsteel.info/2011/03/stainless-technical-standards-and.html
> > >>>>
> > >>>> As I've said before, it is impossible to say absolutely anything without that moron John Googling away and finding an exception to a rule and then passing it off as the rule rather than the exception. He is like having a parrot around the house that only knows a limited number of words. Hey John, I guess I just gave you the bird.
> > >>>
> > >>> Well, Tommy, I served an apprenticeship as a Machinist and "had my
> > >>> papers" as a Journeyman Machinist by the time I completed High School.
> > >>> Now tell us your qualifications,
> > >>>
> > >>> And of course I "look things up" as does every other competent
> > >>> individual. The Machinery's Handbook, for example, has more then 4,000
> > >>> pages of data (the Christian Bible has about 1,500 pages) and is
> > >>> commonly used as a reference in the metal working trades.
> > >>>
> > >> Good comparison.
> > >> I was once deeply engaged with a chart in my Machinery's
> > >> Handbook when my bookkeeper walked in and asked, "Are you
> > >> reading the Bible?"
> > >
> > > I no longer have my machinists manual since it is so far outdated. If John got one in high school that is is essentially useful only for older materials. I too was a machinist in high school and in several early jobs after getting out of the Air Force. If he is believing himself to be plausible after his claims that I was never in the Air Force after his line of crap about his assignments (Uh - he was in Japan in 1954 so he is absolutely positive that Japan wasn't heavily bombed - and this from a supposed Air Force crew chief who worked for men who bombed Japan) So he wants us to believe that he was a machinist as a youth. Well, were he a qualified machinist they would have a job for him in the Air Force a great deal more responsible than crew chief on a dead-in-the-water obsolete bomber. You don't take a qualified machinist and make him a paper shuffler.
> > >
> > > One would think that after comments from Frank who at least taught materials technology he couldn't try passing BS off as information.
> > >
> > Outdated? WTF?
> >
> > When did cutting speeds, material composition, tap drill
> > sizes and weight per square foot for various gauges of steel
> > change?? I must have missed that.
> Just so we're on the same page Andrew, John was speaking about being a machinist in the late 40's. If you don't think that thinks have changed why is the latest copy of the Machinery Manual dated March of 2020? Someone sent me that and gave me a laugh saying that the loud mouth 5 are nothing more than stalkers.
>

????? Assuming John was a machinist in his late teens in the late 1940s, then John would have to be in his 90s now. I doubt John is anywhere near that old. You Tommy are not even too near that age. Are you just making up nonsense again Tommy?

> Definition of stalker? "a person who harasses or persecutes someone with unwanted and obsessive attention" I have to admit that they are most assuredly obsessive. John is almost sexually attentive.

That definition fits you very well Tommy.

On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 10:49:37 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> On Thu, 28 Apr 2022 21:44:26 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
> >On 4/28/2022 8:31 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> >> On Thu, 28 Apr 2022 14:32:53 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> >> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>
> >>> They were expensive.
> >>
> >> $120. They're still expensive:
> >> <https://books.industrialpress.com/machinery-handbook/>
> >> <https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/machinerys-handbook-toolbox-erik-oberg/1136199019>
> >>
> >> However, there are older copyright violations available for download:
> >> 29th
> >> <https://www.vtc1.org/cms/lib/PA03000913/Centricity/Domain/21/Machinerys%20Handbook%2029th%20Edition.pdf>
> >> 27th
> >> <http://library.uc.edu.kh/userfiles/pdf/19.Machinery%27s%20handbook.pdf>
> >>
> >>> I'd become familiar with the book while still in
> >>> engineering school. When I started work as a plant engineer, the
> >>> management asked me if there were any reference books they could buy for
> >>> me. I asked for the _Machinery's Handbook_ and the _Standard Handbook
> >>> for Mechanical Engineering_ (AKA Mark's Handbook).
> >>>
> >>> I still have them and still use them on occasion.
> >>
> >>
> >Older editions are plentiful from under $25:
> >https://www.alibris.com/Machinerys-Handbook/book/4085822?qsort=p&matches=10
> >
> >https://books.industrialpress.com/history-of-machinerys-handbook/
> >
> >Even those of us blessed with good memory need the
> >Handbook's tables regularly. While I'm sure useful
> >information has been added to later editions, I haven't seen
> >any deficiency in my 19th Edition, note reader comments on
> >this page:
> >
> >https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2798794-machinery-s-handbook
> Working from memory it seems that my use of the Machinery's hand book
> was usually to figure out what gear cutter to use or what was the
> standard clearance when machining a thread, or something of that
> nature.
>
> Long story:
>
> When I crossed over from an airplane mechanic to a Machinist it was in
> conjunction with a transfer from Bangor Maine to Barksdale AFB in
> Louisiana so when I arrived at the new shop I was neither fish nor
> fowl, I was a NCO but with an apprentice skill level and I'm sure that
> the Shop Chief viewed me with a certain amount of suspicions.

NCO. Non Commissioned Officer. So we all can assume you John were a step or two or a whole staircase above enlisted boy Tommy in the Air Force.

>
> Anyway, the first job he gave me was some extension screws for under
> wing jacks - probably 3" in diameter, 24 inches long, with square
> threads.I'm cutting the threads on the first one and the Shop Chief
> comes over and says, "looks you are cutting a lot of clearance on
> those threads", and I replied, "Well the Machinery's Handbook says 10
> thousands clearance, or whatever it was." The shop chief looked at me
> for a bit and says, "You've done this before", so I told him that I
> had completed my apprenticeship and we got along pretty well after
> that.
>
> The moral here is that the Hand Book can get you out of all sorts of
> tight corners (:-)
>
> --
> Cheers,
>
> John B.

On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 00:48:28 -0700 (PDT), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
<ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 10:49:37 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>> On Thu, 28 Apr 2022 21:44:26 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>> >On 4/28/2022 8:31 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> >> On Thu, 28 Apr 2022 14:32:53 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>> >> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> They were expensive.
>> >>
>> >> $120. They're still expensive:
>> >> <https://books.industrialpress.com/machinery-handbook/>
>> >> <https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/machinerys-handbook-toolbox-erik-oberg/1136199019>
>> >>
>> >> However, there are older copyright violations available for download:
>> >> 29th
>> >> <https://www.vtc1.org/cms/lib/PA03000913/Centricity/Domain/21/Machinerys%20Handbook%2029th%20Edition.pdf>
>> >> 27th
>> >> <http://library.uc.edu.kh/userfiles/pdf/19.Machinery%27s%20handbook.pdf>
>> >>
>> >>> I'd become familiar with the book while still in
>> >>> engineering school. When I started work as a plant engineer, the
>> >>> management asked me if there were any reference books they could buy for
>> >>> me. I asked for the _Machinery's Handbook_ and the _Standard Handbook
>> >>> for Mechanical Engineering_ (AKA Mark's Handbook).
>> >>>
>> >>> I still have them and still use them on occasion.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >Older editions are plentiful from under $25:
>> >https://www.alibris.com/Machinerys-Handbook/book/4085822?qsort=p&matches=10
>> >
>> >https://books.industrialpress.com/history-of-machinerys-handbook/
>> >
>> >Even those of us blessed with good memory need the
>> >Handbook's tables regularly. While I'm sure useful
>> >information has been added to later editions, I haven't seen
>> >any deficiency in my 19th Edition, note reader comments on
>> >this page:
>> >
>> >https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2798794-machinery-s-handbook
>> Working from memory it seems that my use of the Machinery's hand book
>> was usually to figure out what gear cutter to use or what was the
>> standard clearance when machining a thread, or something of that
>> nature.
>>
>> Long story:
>>
>> When I crossed over from an airplane mechanic to a Machinist it was in
>> conjunction with a transfer from Bangor Maine to Barksdale AFB in
>> Louisiana so when I arrived at the new shop I was neither fish nor
>> fowl, I was a NCO but with an apprentice skill level and I'm sure that
>> the Shop Chief viewed me with a certain amount of suspicions.
>
>NCO. Non Commissioned Officer. So we all can assume you John were a step or two or a whole staircase above enlisted boy Tommy in the Air Force.

Well, in the interest of truth I have to admit that when I retired I
was an "E-7" grade while Tommy never advanced beyond the "E-3" Level.
However it could be argued that as I served for 20 years and Tommy for
only 4 years I would have received more promotions then Tommy. With
that in mind I'll add that my pay grade at 4 years of service was
"E-5".
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 9:18:29 PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
> On Thu, 28 Apr 2022 11:48:27 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Wednesday, April 27, 2022 at 7:49:44 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >> On 4/27/2022 9:12 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >> > On Tuesday, April 26, 2022 at 8:03:53 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >> >> On 4/26/2022 6:01 PM, John B. wrote:
> >> >>> On Tue, 26 Apr 2022 07:18:58 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
> >> >>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >>>
> >> >>>> On Monday, April 25, 2022 at 6:16:43 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >> >>>>> On 4/25/2022 7:36 PM, John B. wrote:
> >> >>>>>> On Mon, 25 Apr 2022 16:53:30 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
> >> >>>>>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>> On Monday, April 25, 2022 at 1:10:30 PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>> On Thursday, April 21, 2022 at 8:21:33 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>>> "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."
> >> >>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>> I'm sure there are countless engineers who would be surprised to read
> >> >>>>>>>>> that blanket statement. They might ask "_Which_ stainless steel? How
> >> >>>>>>>>> brittle, under what conditions? What sort of stresses qualify as
> >> >>>>>>>>> 'high-strength'? What sort of applications?"
> >> >>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>> https://www.renehersecycles.com/just-a-bunch-of-bolts/
> >> >>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>> Jan Heine has some good idea, but IMO he often goes off into the weeds.
> >> >>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>> I can't remember the last time I broke a stainless steel fastener on a
> >> >>>>>>>>> bike. It may have never happened.
> >> >>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>> --
> >> >>>>>>>>> - Frank Krygowski
> >> >>>>>>>> Pff... as if the bolts on a bicycle are in the high end application category.
> >> >>>>>>>> I read the article and what I came up with is 'what a snob...' YMMV.
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>> Steel is iron with carbon in it. It was originated simply by smelting iron in coal fired ovens. Crying about chromium or molybdenum added to the mixture make pretty minor improvements. (for instance; adding chromium doesn't improve the strength but the hardness or rigidity of the material. Stainless is largely iron with a larger percentage of other materials such as aluminum, nickel, vanadium etc. Stainless is a material you HAVE to know how to work. Overheating and quenching like you would some steels causes it to crystalize and become brittle. You can see this has occurred in the manufacture of screws in particular since they turn these things out so rapidly that they can overheat the material and then it can be quenched coming off of the tool because they are in an oil bath, Then when you tighten the bolt it simply breaks. Its been far too long since I dealt with this but I seem to remember that you can heat it up to something like a thousand degrees F and let it stay
> >the
> >> re
> >> >>
> >> >>> f
> >> >>>>> or
> >> >>>>>>> some time and then allow it to air cool and it forms a different sort of austenitic structure more like steel and so it is much stronger.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> https://www.theworldmaterial.com/aisi-316-ss316-stainless-steel-properties-composition/#Hardening
> >> >>>>>> "Type 316 SS cannot be hardened by heat treating"
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>> OK, fine.
> >> >>>>> But any claim about 'stainless' generally is pointless- it's
> >> >>>>> a big group of wildly different materials. Some examples:
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> https://www.mori2a.com/en/dont-stop/news/prodottiproducts/stainless-steel-200-series-in-cr-mn-a-safe-alternative-to-304/
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> https://www.searchsteel.info/2011/03/stainless-technical-standards-and.html
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> As I've said before, it is impossible to say absolutely anything without that moron John Googling away and finding an exception to a rule and then passing it off as the rule rather than the exception. He is like having a parrot around the house that only knows a limited number of words. Hey John, I guess I just gave you the bird.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Well, Tommy, I served an apprenticeship as a Machinist and "had my
> >> >>> papers" as a Journeyman Machinist by the time I completed High School.
> >> >>> Now tell us your qualifications,
> >> >>>
> >> >>> And of course I "look things up" as does every other competent
> >> >>> individual. The Machinery's Handbook, for example, has more then 4,000
> >> >>> pages of data (the Christian Bible has about 1,500 pages) and is
> >> >>> commonly used as a reference in the metal working trades.
> >> >>>
> >> >> Good comparison.
> >> >> I was once deeply engaged with a chart in my Machinery's
> >> >> Handbook when my bookkeeper walked in and asked, "Are you
> >> >> reading the Bible?"
> >> >
> >> > I no longer have my machinists manual since it is so far outdated. If John got one in high school that is is essentially useful only for older materials. I too was a machinist in high school and in several early jobs after getting out of the Air Force. If he is believing himself to be plausible after his claims that I was never in the Air Force after his line of crap about his assignments (Uh - he was in Japan in 1954 so he is absolutely positive that Japan wasn't heavily bombed - and this from a supposed Air Force crew chief who worked for men who bombed Japan) So he wants us to believe that he was a machinist as a youth. Well, were he a qualified machinist they would have a job for him in the Air Force a great deal more responsible than crew chief on a dead-in-the-water obsolete bomber. You don't take a qualified machinist and make him a paper shuffler.
> >> >
> >> > One would think that after comments from Frank who at least taught materials technology he couldn't try passing BS off as information.
> >> >
> >> Outdated? WTF?
> >>
> >> When did cutting speeds, material composition, tap drill
> >> sizes and weight per square foot for various gauges of steel
> >> change?? I must have missed that.
> >
> >Just so we're on the same page Andrew, John was speaking about being a machinist in the late 40's. If you don't think that thinks have changed why is the latest copy of the Machinery Manual dated March of 2020? Someone sent me that and gave me a laugh saying that the loud mouth 5 are nothing more than stalkers.
> >
> >Definition of stalker? "a person who harasses or persecutes someone with unwanted and obsessive attention" I have to admit that they are most assuredly obsessive. John is almost sexually attentive.
> "sexually attentive" Oh, I like that. Of course I've been married to
> my current wife for 50 years but I suppose anything is possible....
>
> But, Good Lord! Have you ever seen a picture of our boy Tommy?

Yes, a bit like Lurch without the bulk

On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 7:44:33 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 4/28/2022 8:31 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> > On Thu, 28 Apr 2022 14:32:53 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> > <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >
> >> They were expensive.
> >
> > $120. They're still expensive:
> > <https://books.industrialpress.com/machinery-handbook/>
> > <https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/machinerys-handbook-toolbox-erik-oberg/1136199019>
> >
> > However, there are older copyright violations available for download:
> > 29th
> > <https://www.vtc1.org/cms/lib/PA03000913/Centricity/Domain/21/Machinerys%20Handbook%2029th%20Edition.pdf>
> > 27th
> > <http://library.uc.edu.kh/userfiles/pdf/19.Machinery%27s%20handbook.pdf>
> >
> >> I'd become familiar with the book while still in
> >> engineering school. When I started work as a plant engineer, the
> >> management asked me if there were any reference books they could buy for
> >> me. I asked for the _Machinery's Handbook_ and the _Standard Handbook
> >> for Mechanical Engineering_ (AKA Mark's Handbook).
> >>
> >> I still have them and still use them on occasion.
> >
> >
> Older editions are plentiful from under $25:
> https://www.alibris.com/Machinerys-Handbook/book/4085822?qsort=p&matches=10
>
> https://books.industrialpress.com/history-of-machinerys-handbook/
>
> Even those of us blessed with good memory need the
> Handbook's tables regularly. While I'm sure useful
> information has been added to later editions, I haven't seen
> any deficiency in my 19th Edition, note reader comments on
> this page:
>
> https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2798794-machinery-s-handbook
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

In the comments section "I have read a 7th edition as well as a 23rd edition. Amazing to see the transition in time." This is what I commented on and what Frank claims never happened. Now he will claim he never said that.

On 4/29/2022 2:06 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
>
> In the comments section "I have read a 7th edition as well as a 23rd edition. Amazing to see the transition in time." This is what I commented on and what Frank claims never happened. Now he will claim he never said that.

I will now astonish Tom with my ability to copy and paste precisely what
was actually written. Watch this, Tom!

Tom Kunich wrote:
>> I no longer have my machinists manual since it is so far outdated.
If John got one in high school that is is essentially useful only for
older materials. ...

Frank Krygowski replied:

> If Tom thinks the Machinery's Handbook is outdated, it proves he has
never made enough use of the book to know what it contains.

> Perhaps he's confusing the Machinery's Handbook with some other
unspecified "machinists manual." If so, that's yet another example of
him speaking authoritatively from a position of ignorance.

---------------------------------------------------

OK, joking aside: Those exact quotes were no great trick. Everyone here
can do it. Except Tom, of course! :-)

And I'll point out that Andrew Muzi still uses the same older edition
that I do. It was the 19th that was given to me when I started work as a
plant engineer. I do, however, have the 29th edition as a PDF, paid for
by the university.

--
- Frank Krygowski