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tech / rec.bicycles.tech / curiosity- anyone balance wheels?

SubjectAuthor
* curiosity- anyone balance wheels?patrick
+- Re: curiosity- anyone balance wheels?Tom Kunich
+- Re: curiosity- anyone balance wheels?Frank Krygowski
+* Re: curiosity- anyone balance wheels?AMuzi
|+* Re: curiosity- anyone balance wheels?Tom Kunich
||`* Re: curiosity- anyone balance wheels?russellseaton1@yahoo.com
|| `- Re: curiosity- anyone balance wheels?funkma...@hotmail.com
|`* Re: curiosity- anyone balance wheels?Ted Heise
| `* Re: curiosity- anyone balance wheels?AMuzi
|  `* Re: curiosity- anyone balance wheels?Ted Heise
|   `- Re: curiosity- anyone balance wheels?Tom Kunich
+- Re: curiosity- anyone balance wheels?funkma...@hotmail.com
`- Re: curiosity- anyone balance wheels?Jeff Liebermann

1
curiosity- anyone balance wheels?

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Subject: curiosity- anyone balance wheels?
From: patm2161...@gmail.com (patrick)
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 by: patrick - Wed, 4 May 2022 21:31 UTC

Anyone regularly run into a reason (speed on a downhill) where they need to statically balance the wheels? A further question, if you fix a flat and fail to put the tire on in the same registration on the rim, does that throw off the balance? Regards, Pat (who recently balanced the wheels on a bandsaw)

Re: curiosity- anyone balance wheels?

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Subject: Re: curiosity- anyone balance wheels?
From: cyclin...@gmail.com (Tom Kunich)
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 by: Tom Kunich - Wed, 4 May 2022 21:43 UTC

On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 2:31:02 PM UTC-7, patrick wrote:
> Anyone regularly run into a reason (speed on a downhill) where they need to statically balance the wheels? A further question, if you fix a flat and fail to put the tire on in the same registration on the rim, does that throw off the balance? Regards, Pat (who recently balanced the wheels on a bandsaw)
I have tried to balance wheels - mostly deep aero wheels. But it doesn't seem to make any difference at the speeds I ride. I allowed the wheels to find a balanced spot in a wheel alignment tool and then wrapped some small solder around the nipple of the opposite side. I'm not at all certain that this is very effective but I could get a good static balance. But I'm not in the least sure that the dynamic balance was improved. Growing more cautious in my old age I rarely go over 30 anymore, especially with the condition the roads are in these days.

Re: curiosity- anyone balance wheels?

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Subject: Re: curiosity- anyone balance wheels?
From: frkry...@gmail.com (Frank Krygowski)
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 by: Frank Krygowski - Thu, 5 May 2022 01:47 UTC

On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 2:31:02 PM UTC-7, patrick wrote:
> Anyone regularly run into a reason (speed on a downhill) where they need to statically balance the wheels? A further question, if you fix a flat and fail to put the tire on in the same registration on the rim, does that throw off the balance? Regards, Pat (who recently balanced the wheels on a bandsaw)

I've been up to 54 mph on one of my bikes. I've been well over 40 mph many times. I've never noticed any effect from
wheels being out of balance.

It would be easy to calculate the force involved if you like, but I don't see a reason for doing that.

If I put a spoke reflector on a bike wheel (which would mostly be for kid bikes) I do try to put it opposite the valve stem,
but I doubt it makes any practical difference.

- Frank Krygowski

Re: curiosity- anyone balance wheels?

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From: am...@yellowjersey.org (AMuzi)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: curiosity- anyone balance wheels?
Date: Wed, 04 May 2022 22:40:42 -0500
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 by: AMuzi - Thu, 5 May 2022 03:40 UTC

On 5/4/2022 4:31 PM, patrick wrote:
> Anyone regularly run into a reason (speed on a downhill) where they need to statically balance the wheels? A further question, if you fix a flat and fail to put the tire on in the same registration on the rim, does that throw off the balance? Regards, Pat (who recently balanced the wheels on a bandsaw)
>

Bicycle rims and tires are remarkably uniform such that for
our speeds balance adjustments are trivial at best.

Rim seams are opposite the valve which avoids the largest
potential imbalance. In the worst case, a welded singlewall
rim with an extra long valve, the imbalance is niggling.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Re: curiosity- anyone balance wheels?

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Subject: Re: curiosity- anyone balance wheels?
From: funkmast...@hotmail.com (funkma...@hotmail.com)
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 by: funkma...@hotmail.co - Thu, 5 May 2022 10:13 UTC

On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 5:31:02 PM UTC-4, patrick wrote:
> Anyone regularly run into a reason (speed on a downhill) where they need to statically balance the wheels? A further question, if you fix a flat and fail to put the tire on in the same registration on the rim, does that throw off the balance? Regards, Pat (who recently balanced the wheels on a bandsaw)

Lead golf tape - here's my story:

I bought a cheap set of 60 mm deep dish carbon rim that had a noticeable 'surging' at speeds over 30. It wasn't enough to cause me any safety concern, but on a down hill where I hit ~45 it was "WHAT THE HELL IS THAT?". Later I checked the bike in the stand by spinning up the rear wheel, and the stand nearly looked as if it was going to come off the floor. Both wheels showed an extremely heavy spot opposite the stem when allowed to coast down ( and that was _with_ the tire and the 80 mm stem tube installed) . I have an acquaintance who competed for many years at the national level (won the amateur TT 40-45 nationals once) who had told me a while ago that he balances his wheels using lead golf tape, so I gave that a try - It worked! I used the old-school car tire balancing method of letting the wheel settle then applying the tape at 120 degree angles. According to the math I added about 3 ounces to the wheels, but it was already heavy so not a big deal.

https://www.golfgalaxy.com/p/golfworks-hd-lead-tape-sp11glfwrkhdldtp/sp11glfwrkhdldtp

Look around though, it's available in various widths and thicknesses.

Re: curiosity- anyone balance wheels?

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Subject: Re: curiosity- anyone balance wheels?
From: cyclin...@gmail.com (Tom Kunich)
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 by: Tom Kunich - Thu, 5 May 2022 17:16 UTC

On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 8:40:47 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 5/4/2022 4:31 PM, patrick wrote:
> > Anyone regularly run into a reason (speed on a downhill) where they need to statically balance the wheels? A further question, if you fix a flat and fail to put the tire on in the same registration on the rim, does that throw off the balance? Regards, Pat (who recently balanced the wheels on a bandsaw)
> >
> Bicycle rims and tires are remarkably uniform such that for
> our speeds balance adjustments are trivial at best.
>
> Rim seams are opposite the valve which avoids the largest
> potential imbalance. In the worst case, a welded singlewall
> rim with an extra long valve, the imbalance is niggling.

I am pretty certain that rims at least used to be made with a balancing construction opposite the innertube thickened area around the filler stem. This could be observed because it was always miscalculated and the wheel, tire and tube would usually balance with the stem hole at the top of the rotation. But I couldn't tell the difference between leaving it as is and balancing it with small wraps of solder.

Re: curiosity- anyone balance wheels?

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From: jef...@cruzio.com (Jeff Liebermann)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: curiosity- anyone balance wheels?
Date: Thu, 05 May 2022 10:40:08 -0700
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 by: Jeff Liebermann - Thu, 5 May 2022 17:40 UTC

On Wed, 4 May 2022 14:31:00 -0700 (PDT), patrick
<patm216140.090.500.125@gmail.com> wrote:

>Anyone regularly run into a reason (speed on a downhill) where they need to statically balance the wheels? A further question, if you fix a flat and fail to put the tire on in the same registration on the rim, does that throw off the balance? Regards, Pat (who recently balanced the wheels on a bandsaw)

These videos might be of interest:

"Bicycle Wheel Balancing: Marginal Gains or a 'Must Do'?"
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcgiUcbS64c> (14:30)

"Balance your wheels""
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpSrrVV0XNE> (11:58)

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Re: curiosity- anyone balance wheels?

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From: the...@panix.com (Ted Heise)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: curiosity- anyone balance wheels?
Date: Thu, 5 May 2022 18:27:39 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: My own, such as it is
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 by: Ted Heise - Thu, 5 May 2022 18:27 UTC

On Wed, 04 May 2022 22:40:42 -0500,
AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> On 5/4/2022 4:31 PM, patrick wrote:
> > Anyone regularly run into a reason (speed on a downhill) where
> > they need to statically balance the wheels? A further
> > question, if you fix a flat and fail to put the tire on in the
> > same registration on the rim, does that throw off the balance?
> > Regards, Pat (who recently balanced the wheels on a bandsaw)
>
> Bicycle rims and tires are remarkably uniform such that for our
> speeds balance adjustments are trivial at best.
>
> Rim seams are opposite the valve which avoids the largest
> potential imbalance. In the worst case, a welded singlewall rim
> with an extra long valve, the imbalance is niggling.

As usual, Andrew has the technical aspects correct. I've had a
case where my wheel was out of round enough to cause noise and
vibration, but it turned out to be tire distortion (and uneven
seating) because the rim strip had wormed its way out of the
channel in the rim and was interfering with the tire seating.

I currently have a tandem tire that's a bit deformed because we
rode maybe 50 yards on it when totally flat. It has a slightly
visible wobble, but it's mostly at the side. In this case, I
haven't noticed any effect on the ride smoothness.

--
Ted Heise <theise@panix.com> West Lafayette, IN, USA

Re: curiosity- anyone balance wheels?

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Subject: Re: curiosity- anyone balance wheels?
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In-Reply-To: <slrnt785or.jub.theise@panix2.panix.com>
 by: AMuzi - Thu, 5 May 2022 20:18 UTC

On 5/5/2022 1:27 PM, Ted Heise wrote:
> On Wed, 04 May 2022 22:40:42 -0500,
> AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> On 5/4/2022 4:31 PM, patrick wrote:
>>> Anyone regularly run into a reason (speed on a downhill) where
>>> they need to statically balance the wheels? A further
>>> question, if you fix a flat and fail to put the tire on in the
>>> same registration on the rim, does that throw off the balance?
>>> Regards, Pat (who recently balanced the wheels on a bandsaw)
>>
>> Bicycle rims and tires are remarkably uniform such that for our
>> speeds balance adjustments are trivial at best.
>>
>> Rim seams are opposite the valve which avoids the largest
>> potential imbalance. In the worst case, a welded singlewall rim
>> with an extra long valve, the imbalance is niggling.
>
> As usual, Andrew has the technical aspects correct. I've had a
> case where my wheel was out of round enough to cause noise and
> vibration, but it turned out to be tire distortion (and uneven
> seating) because the rim strip had wormed its way out of the
> channel in the rim and was interfering with the tire seating.
>
> I currently have a tandem tire that's a bit deformed because we
> rode maybe 50 yards on it when totally flat. It has a slightly
> visible wobble, but it's mostly at the side. In this case, I
> haven't noticed any effect on the ride smoothness.
>

For a real adventure, try a max speed downhill with a spoke
reflector. Yikes!

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Re: curiosity- anyone balance wheels?

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Subject: Re: curiosity- anyone balance wheels?
From: ritzanna...@gmail.com (russellseaton1@yahoo.com)
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 by: russellseaton1@yahoo - Thu, 5 May 2022 22:38 UTC

On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 12:16:35 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 8:40:47 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > On 5/4/2022 4:31 PM, patrick wrote:
> > > Anyone regularly run into a reason (speed on a downhill) where they need to statically balance the wheels? A further question, if you fix a flat and fail to put the tire on in the same registration on the rim, does that throw off the balance? Regards, Pat (who recently balanced the wheels on a bandsaw)
> > >
> > Bicycle rims and tires are remarkably uniform such that for
> > our speeds balance adjustments are trivial at best.
> >
> > Rim seams are opposite the valve which avoids the largest
> > potential imbalance. In the worst case, a welded singlewall
> > rim with an extra long valve, the imbalance is niggling.
> I am pretty certain that rims at least used to be made with a balancing construction opposite the innertube thickened area around the filler stem.

You mean the "valve stem". I've always called it the valve stem. Everyone I have ever met in my life has called it the valve stem. How is it that you do not know this simple terminology? Did the people in Oakland where you grew up use a different term? When you were in the Air Force, did they not use the term valve stem? Maybe John can chime in here and tell us what it was referred to when he was in the Air Force. I'll bet the motor vehicle department in the US Army called it a valve stem. Maybe the Air Force used a different term just to be different.

> This could be observed because it was always miscalculated and the wheel, tire and tube would usually balance with the stem hole at the top of the rotation. But I couldn't tell the difference between leaving it as is and balancing it with small wraps of solder.

Re: curiosity- anyone balance wheels?

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Subject: Re: curiosity- anyone balance wheels?
From: funkmast...@hotmail.com (funkma...@hotmail.com)
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 by: funkma...@hotmail.co - Fri, 6 May 2022 09:44 UTC

On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 6:38:24 PM UTC-4, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 12:16:35 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 8:40:47 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > > On 5/4/2022 4:31 PM, patrick wrote:
> > > > Anyone regularly run into a reason (speed on a downhill) where they need to statically balance the wheels? A further question, if you fix a flat and fail to put the tire on in the same registration on the rim, does that throw off the balance? Regards, Pat (who recently balanced the wheels on a bandsaw)
> > > >
> > > Bicycle rims and tires are remarkably uniform such that for
> > > our speeds balance adjustments are trivial at best.
> > >
> > > Rim seams are opposite the valve which avoids the largest
> > > potential imbalance. In the worst case, a welded singlewall
> > > rim with an extra long valve, the imbalance is niggling.
> > I am pretty certain that rims at least used to be made with a balancing construction opposite the innertube thickened area around the filler stem.
> You mean the "valve stem". I've always called it the valve stem. Everyone I have ever met in my life has called it the valve stem. How is it that you do not know this simple terminology? Did the people in Oakland where you grew up use a different term? When you were in the Air Force, did they not use the term valve stem? Maybe John can chime in here and tell us what it was referred to when he was in the Air Force. I'll bet the motor vehicle department in the US Army called it a valve stem. Maybe the Air Force used a different term just to be different.
> > This could be observed because it was always miscalculated and the wheel, tire and tube would usually balance with the stem hole at the top of the rotation. But I couldn't tell the difference between leaving it as is and balancing it with small wraps of solder.

He got it from the same source that said 'light line ' is a more common term for fiber optic cable.

Re: curiosity- anyone balance wheels?

<slrnt7acob.2nu.theise@panix2.panix.com>

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From: the...@panix.com (Ted Heise)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: curiosity- anyone balance wheels?
Date: Fri, 6 May 2022 14:39:07 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: My own, such as it is
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 by: Ted Heise - Fri, 6 May 2022 14:39 UTC

On Thu, 05 May 2022 15:18:40 -0500,
AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> On 5/5/2022 1:27 PM, Ted Heise wrote:
> > On Wed, 04 May 2022 22:40:42 -0500,
> > AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >> On 5/4/2022 4:31 PM, patrick wrote:
> >>> Anyone regularly run into a reason (speed on a downhill)
> >>> where they need to statically balance the wheels?

> >> Bicycle rims and tires are remarkably uniform such that for
> >> our speeds balance adjustments are trivial at best.

> > As usual, Andrew has the technical aspects correct. I've had
> > a case where my wheel was out of round enough to cause noise
> > and vibration, but it turned out to be tire distortion (and
> > uneven seating) because the rim strip had wormed its way out
> > of the channel in the rim and was interfering with the tire
> > seating.

> For a real adventure, try a max speed downhill with a spoke
> reflector. Yikes!

Interesting. I wouldn't have thought that small bit of plastic
would have much effect, but am not going to try! At 66, I'm much
more willing to learn from others (and not experience) than when I
was younger.

--
Ted Heise <theise@panix.com> West Lafayette, IN, USA

Re: curiosity- anyone balance wheels?

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Subject: Re: curiosity- anyone balance wheels?
From: cyclin...@gmail.com (Tom Kunich)
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 by: Tom Kunich - Fri, 6 May 2022 15:34 UTC

On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 7:39:11 AM UTC-7, Ted Heise wrote:
> On Thu, 05 May 2022 15:18:40 -0500,
> AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> > On 5/5/2022 1:27 PM, Ted Heise wrote:
> > > On Wed, 04 May 2022 22:40:42 -0500,
> > > AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> > >> On 5/4/2022 4:31 PM, patrick wrote:
> > >>> Anyone regularly run into a reason (speed on a downhill)
> > >>> where they need to statically balance the wheels?
> > >> Bicycle rims and tires are remarkably uniform such that for
> > >> our speeds balance adjustments are trivial at best.
> > > As usual, Andrew has the technical aspects correct. I've had
> > > a case where my wheel was out of round enough to cause noise
> > > and vibration, but it turned out to be tire distortion (and
> > > uneven seating) because the rim strip had wormed its way out
> > > of the channel in the rim and was interfering with the tire
> > > seating.
> > For a real adventure, try a max speed downhill with a spoke
> > reflector. Yikes!
> Interesting. I wouldn't have thought that small bit of plastic
> would have much effect, but am not going to try! At 66, I'm much
> more willing to learn from others (and not experience) than when I
> was younger.
> --
> Ted Heise <the...@panix.com> West Lafayette, IN, USA
That's probably a good way to compare the misbalance of the normal wheels. Those reflectors are probably an ounce and indeed they will shake your brains out at speed. So that micro imbalance of good wheels is probably not more than a couple of grams.

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