On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 9:02:09 AM UTC-7, Rolf Mantel wrote:
> Am 13.05.2022 um 17:31 schrieb Tom Kunich:
>
> > I guess he doesn't like my negative comments about wind power because
> > he has this dream that green energy exists. The fact is that even in
> > the Altamont pass where I have often ridden, windmills are only
> > active at most 25% of the time. They are even installed on the lee
> > side of some of the hills meaning that they almost never operate but
> > receive government funding because they are installed. Jeffie is a
> > poor fool who is becoming a demented poor fool. But he is doing it to
> > himself so those who can see his posting and know anything can simply
> > shake your heads, The rest of his group that have marginalized
> > themselves from truth and fact can only make additional ignorant
> > statements since nothing divided by nothing is still nothing.
> Please to this through a google translator.
> http://www.bund-rvso.de/windenergie-windraeder-voegel-fledermaeuse.html

I entirely agree that birds are killed in many ways, I don't think that is the question. Windmills are placed in areas that are largely monocultural. Or if you please - they have almost entirely single species in question. In the Altamont Pass here we don't see Robins or Sparrows killed but the very seriously endangered Raptors such as Bald and Golden Eagles and lessor raptors such as hawks and falcons.

The blade tips of the windmills are moving much too rapidly for the Raptors to be able to estimate since nothing in nature moves that fast Bats are even more serious because they are almost entirely of one type that controls the insect population and here these windfarms are upwind from the food bowl of the United States. While grains are largely grown in the mid-west and plains, California grows most of the fruits and vegetables which are greatly threatened by insects. Kill off the bats and the end result is over spraying with insecticides. These invariably end up in the food supply.

Now, perhaps with the wind farms located on the sands of the north sea, this isn't so much of a problem, but in the USA which supplies a large portion of the worlds food (the huge increase in the world's population has been completely offset with modern farming techniques) The world simply cannot afford to put barriers of any kind to farming and those bats are an integral part of it.

On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 9:23:17 AM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
> On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 5:02:09 PM UTC+1, Rolf Mantel wrote:
> > Am 13.05.2022 um 17:31 schrieb Tom Kunich:
> >
> > > I guess he doesn't like my negative comments about wind power because
> > > he has this dream that green energy exists. The fact is that even in
> > > the Altamont pass where I have often ridden, windmills are only
> > > active at most 25% of the time. They are even installed on the lee
> > > side of some of the hills meaning that they almost never operate but
> > > receive government funding because they are installed. Jeffie is a
> > > poor fool who is becoming a demented poor fool. But he is doing it to
> > > himself so those who can see his posting and know anything can simply
> > > shake your heads, The rest of his group that have marginalized
> > > themselves from truth and fact can only make additional ignorant
> > > statements since nothing divided by nothing is still nothing.
> > Please to this through a google translator.
> > http://www.bund-rvso.de/windenergie-windraeder-voegel-fledermaeuse.html
> >
> > Rolf
> >
> How about an executive summary, Rolf? A couple of lines should do it. -- AJ
It says that far more birds and bats are killed by other means such as cars, planes and railroads. Also flying into glass panes of skyscrapers.

On 5/13/2022 11:31 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> I was forwarded another one of Jeffies childish postings.

No you weren't. You read his post.

Quit lying about that. Nobody believes you.

> Why do you suppose people like Jeffie work so hard to prove me wrong about the slightest detail?

You provide what the military calls a "target rich environment." You
post so many mistakes and lies that many people feel compelled to
respond with at least some corrections.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 5/13/2022 12:02 PM, Rolf Mantel wrote:
> Am 13.05.2022 um 17:31 schrieb Tom Kunich:
>
>> I guess he doesn't like my negative comments about wind power because
>> he has this dream that green energy exists. The fact is that even in
>> the Altamont pass where I have often ridden, windmills are only
>> active at most 25% of the time. They are even installed on the lee
>> side of some of the hills meaning that they almost never operate but
>> receive government funding because they are installed. Jeffie is a
>> poor fool who is becoming a demented poor fool. But he is doing it to
>> himself so those who can see his posting and know anything can simply
>> shake your heads, The rest of his group that have marginalized
>> themselves from truth and fact can only make additional ignorant
>> statements since nothing divided by nothing is still nothing.
>
>
> Please to this through a google translator.
> http://www.bund-rvso.de/windenergie-windraeder-voegel-fledermaeuse.html

Good article. FWIW, one biologist friend of mine published a paper on
bird deaths caused by impact with a very tall television and radio tower
at the edge of our river valley. There's also been quite a lot of press
lately about nighttime lights in large cities luring migrating birds
into collisions with skyscrapers, as well as other bird-building
collisions.

I do think there are places where wind turbines should not be sited. I'm
thinking of the major migration path that crosses western Lake Erie as
one example.

But the exaggeration of turbine hazards is silly, especially while
ignoring much more important sources of bird deaths, and ignoring the
huge negative effects of legacy energy sources.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Fri, 13 May 2022 08:31:37 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich

>I was forwarded another one of Jeffies childish postings.

You're lying. But that's ok because nobody believes you.

>He is attempting to calculate the blade tip speed of
>a windmill in order to discredit my claim of "near
>the speed of sound."

Correct. You get one point for actually reading whatever some
mythical person forwarded to you. I therefore grant you 60 minutes of
my spare time on a Friday night.

>I suppose he is simply too stupid to know that the
>while he shows the blade tip moving in the transonic
>region (0.7 to 1.2 x the speed of sound),

Very close to correct. The flow of air over the curved part of an
airfoil is faster than the speed of the airfoil through the air. This
is one of the ways an airplane wing provides lift (the other is the
angle of attack). There is also an increased airspeed around the
fuselage.
<https://www.grc.nasa.gov/www/k-12/airplane/hisub.html>
However, a wind turbine is not an airplane. There difference is that
the air speed over the curved part of an airplane wing is fairly
constant over its length, while the air speed over the curved part of
a wind turbine blade varies radically with the distance from the
nacelle (covering over the generator). Near the nacelle, the air
speed is probably twice that of the wind speed. However, at the rotor
tips, the pitch and thickness of the airfoil (blade) is minimal. This
is to reduce some transonic effects which I won't pretend to
understand. However, the result is a fairly flat turbine blade tip
with only a small angle of attack. That's because it doesn't need a
large angle of attack or a fat airfoil at the blade tip. That's where
the a slight angle of attack, and the highest air speed along the
length of the airfoil, will produce the most torque. It's that torque
at the blade tip that provides most of the power. One could build a
wind turbine with only about 1/3 the blade length, except that the fat
part of the blade is needed to support the weight and wind load
created near the blade tip. This might help:
<https://crunch.craft-tech.com/applications/design-optimization/wind-turbine-blade/>
The end result of all this is that yes, the air moves faster over the
upper (suction) part of the airfoil, it isn't much faster than the
rotor tip speed because the airfoil is almost flat and the angle of
attack is also small.

>it never occurs to him for one second that the wind is accelerated
>over an aerodynamic wing section putting a tip speed of 0.7 SOS to
>very close to the speed of sound in the aerodynamic and generating
>a sound that deafens the bats causing them to fly haphazardly near
>the blades where a large number of them are killed from collapsed
>lungs due to the volume of sound.

True, but no points because you didn't bother to substantiate your
claim with a credible reference. I'll do it for you:
"Barotrauma is a significant cause of bat fatalities at wind turbines"
(2008)
<https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960982208007513>
"We found that 90% of bat fatalities involved internal haemorrhaging
consistent with barotrauma, and that direct contact with turbine
blades only accounted for about half of the fatalities."

I had difficulties determining the number of bat kills and the total
number of bats in the world. What numbers I could find were rather
questionable. My guess(tm) is that considering that bats are the 2nd
most common group of animals (after rodents) suggests a rather large
number. Meanwhile, science hasn't provided us with an answer to the
problem. The best that is being done is to try to locate wind
turbines away from bat migration paths.

>Those that do not fly too close to the blades are killed nonetheless
>because they are deafened and cannot feed.

Could you provide a reference that demonstrates the problem? I
couldn't find anything with a Google search:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=bats+deafened+by+wind+turbines>

>This is why cattle do not like this whining sound since most animals
>can hear in frequencies much broader than humans who rely upon
>eyesight.

They're fairly quiet.
"The sound of wind farms"
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-sUDSwsE_w> (9:23)

Here's another opinion:
Infrasound caused by Industrial Wind Turbines
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywWNx3OJyuo> (28:14)
Please note that infrasonic means very low frequency, typically below
about 20 Hz. Bat sonar operates at 20 to 80 KHz.

I noticed that you switched from cows huddling together in fear to
cattle. Why did you do that?

>Why do you suppose people like Jeffie work so
>hard to prove me wrong about the slightest detail?

You could ask Jeffie, but that might produce an answer you won't like.
>This is clearly a severe mental problem that must have something
>to do with his health condition.

I appreciate your concern for my physical and mental health. As I've
previously mentioned, I am having health issues, one of which made
bicycle riding rather painful. However, I believe my situation may
have improved over the last few years. I visit the body mechanics in
a few days. As always, I will bring up the topic of bicycle riding.

Time is up. You wasted an hour partly because you didn't bother
providing sources and substantiations to your claims.

>He was never what anyone would call a bicyclist and now he doesn't ride at all due to health conditions and his rapidly reducing physical capacity. So his entire life appears to be disproving what I say which could simply show he is wrong because of a glut of scientific journal articles that say nothing more than I do.
>
>I guess he doesn't like my negative comments about wind power because he has this dream that green energy exists. The fact is that even in the Altamont pass where I have often ridden, windmills are only active at most 25% of the time. They are even installed on the lee side of some of the hills meaning that they almost never operate but receive government funding because they are installed. Jeffie is a poor fool who is becoming a demented poor fool. But he is doing it to himself so those who can see his posting and know anything can simply shake your heads, The rest of his group that have marginalized themselves from truth and fact can only make additional ignorant statements since nothing divided by nothing is still nothing.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Fri, 13 May 2022 19:53:19 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Fri, 13 May 2022 08:31:37 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
>>This is why cattle do not like this whining sound since most animals
>>can hear in frequencies much broader than humans who rely upon
>>eyesight.

Broader? I think you mean higher frequencies instead.

Wining sound? Where did you get the idea that wind turbines make such
a sound? It might if a bearing was about to fail but not in normal
operation. (I'm still waiting for the sonic booms from supersonic tip
speeds). How about a "swishing" or "whooshing" sound?"

Wind Turbine Whine
<https://www.maine.gov/DACF/lupc/projects/windpower/redington/Documents/Section05_Sound/AWEA_Turbine_Noise_FAQ.pdf>
"Wind turbines most commonly produce some broadband noise as their
revolving rotor blades encounter turbulence in the passing air.
Broadband noise is usually described as a "swishing" or "whooshing"
sound."

>They're fairly quiet.
>"The sound of wind farms"
><https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-sUDSwsE_w> (9:23)
>
>Here's another opinion:
>Infrasound caused by Industrial Wind Turbines
><https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywWNx3OJyuo> (28:14)
>Note that infrasonic means very low frequency, typically below
>about 20 Hz. Bat sonar operates at 20 to 80 KHz.

Yet another point of view:
"How Wind Turbines Make You Sick"
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9ckNLI9dRc>

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Fri, 13 May 2022 18:02:04 +0200, Rolf Mantel
<news@hartig-mantel.de> wrote:

>Please to this through a google translator.
>http://www.bund-rvso.de/windenergie-windraeder-voegel-fledermaeuse.html
>
>Rolf

In the USA, wind turbines kill about 234,000 birds per year:
"How Many Birds Are Killed by Wind Turbines?"
<https://abcbirds.org/blog21/wind-turbine-mortality/>

In the USA, cats kill about 1.3 - 4.0 billion birds, and 6.3 - 22.3
billion mammals per year. That's about 10,000 times as many birds
killed by cats than by wind turbines:
"The impact of free-ranging domestic cats on wildlife of the United
States"
<https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms2380>

In the USA, we loose 1.39 billion birds to collisions with structures
and 89 - 340 million with collisions with vehicles. That's about
1,000 times as many birds killed by vehicles than by wind turbines and
900 times as many birds killed by collisions with structures as by
wind turbines:
<https://urbanbird.org/reducing-bird-strike-mortality/>

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558