https://nypost.com/2022/05/14/beware-the-e-bike-menace-in-nyc-they-must-be-banned/

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Saturday, May 14, 2022 at 2:23:47 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> https://nypost.com/2022/05/14/beware-the-e-bike-menace-in-nyc-they-must-be-banned/

On the coffee ride today, one of the guys that puts in 6 rides a week said that the group he rides with used to have an average ride of 30 mile and at 15 mph. Now more than half of the GOOD riders have E-bikes and the rides are now 50 miles, 17-20 mph and with very heavy climbs in them. He and his friend who are very good riders are going to drop out.

The e-bike is very likely to kill normal bicycling. They should be classified as motor vehicles and require a license to own and operate.

On 5/14/2022 5:23 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> https://nypost.com/2022/05/14/beware-the-e-bike-menace-in-nyc-they-must-be-banned/

As I've probably posted before, one noted bike advocate has said that
until now, anyone who could do 20 mph on a bike has probably had years
of experience at slower speeds, during which they learned not to make
certain mistakes. They gradually built up skills needed when riding fast.

Now any klutz can immediately do ~20 mph or more on a bike. Yesterday we
followed a guy doing 30 on an electric bike for quite a while. It had
"ape hanger" style raised handlebars and didn't look like a paragon of
stability.

Put that together with the typical novice's ignorance of traffic laws
and ignorance of acceptable behavior and yes, it's a problem.

These things should have been legally limited to 12 mph. But the
industry paid to be sure that was not the case.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Sat, 14 May 2022 21:45:06 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 5/14/2022 5:23 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> https://nypost.com/2022/05/14/beware-the-e-bike-menace-in-nyc-they-must-be-banned/
>
>As I've probably posted before, one noted bike advocate has said that
>until now, anyone who could do 20 mph on a bike has probably had years
>of experience at slower speeds, during which they learned not to make
>certain mistakes. They gradually built up skills needed when riding fast.
>
>Now any klutz can immediately do ~20 mph or more on a bike. Yesterday we
>followed a guy doing 30 on an electric bike for quite a while. It had
>"ape hanger" style raised handlebars and didn't look like a paragon of
>stability.
>
>Put that together with the typical novice's ignorance of traffic laws
>and ignorance of acceptable behavior and yes, it's a problem.
>
>These things should have been legally limited to 12 mph. But the
>industry paid to be sure that was not the case.

Well, they are, in essence, a "motorcycle" :-)

Singapore, being Singapore, has made some rather draconian laws
concerning electric Bikes.
https://www.mrlifechanger.com/is-ebike-allowed-singapore/
But it does limit what is basically an electric bicycle to certain,
what appear to be logical, limits.
--
Cheers,

John B.

John B. wrote:
> On Sat, 14 May 2022 21:45:06 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 5/14/2022 5:23 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>> https://nypost.com/2022/05/14/beware-the-e-bike-menace-in-nyc-they-must-be-banned/
>>
>> As I've probably posted before, one noted bike advocate has said that
>> until now, anyone who could do 20 mph on a bike has probably had years
>> of experience at slower speeds, during which they learned not to make
>> certain mistakes. They gradually built up skills needed when riding fast.
>>
>> Now any klutz can immediately do ~20 mph or more on a bike. Yesterday we
>> followed a guy doing 30 on an electric bike for quite a while. It had
>> "ape hanger" style raised handlebars and didn't look like a paragon of
>> stability.

BTW, are there lightweight coal-running devices for mounting on bicycle
racks? Asking for a friend.

>> Put that together with the typical novice's ignorance of traffic laws
>> and ignorance of acceptable behavior and yes, it's a problem.
>>
>> These things should have been legally limited to 12 mph. But the
>> industry paid to be sure that was not the case.

You must be a conspiracy theorist and ableist believer in magical
numbers! Or can you argue 12 vs 15 mph?

> Well, they are, in essence, a "motorcycle" :-)
>
> Singapore, being Singapore, has made some rather draconian laws
> concerning electric Bikes.
> https://www.mrlifechanger.com/is-ebike-allowed-singapore/
> But it does limit what is basically an electric bicycle to certain,
> what appear to be logical, limits.

The headwear rule, the 20 kilo limit, and undefined construction limits
point to Singapore draconians not being entirely reasonable. To change
my mind, show me their debates and discussions.

On 5/14/2022 8:45 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 5/14/2022 5:23 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> https://nypost.com/2022/05/14/beware-the-e-bike-menace-in-nyc-they-must-be-banned/
>
>
> As I've probably posted before, one noted bike advocate has
> said that until now, anyone who could do 20 mph on a bike
> has probably had years of experience at slower speeds,
> during which they learned not to make certain mistakes. They
> gradually built up skills needed when riding fast.
>
> Now any klutz can immediately do ~20 mph or more on a bike.
> Yesterday we followed a guy doing 30 on an electric bike for
> quite a while. It had "ape hanger" style raised handlebars
> and didn't look like a paragon of stability.
>
> Put that together with the typical novice's ignorance of
> traffic laws and ignorance of acceptable behavior and yes,
> it's a problem.
>
> These things should have been legally limited to 12 mph. But
> the industry paid to be sure that was not the case.
>
>

I had a similar conversation last week with a man with
several years of competitive motorcycle racing who also
noted that handling/ awareness of other traffic and
impediments is sorely lacking both for e-bike renters and
for middle-age/elderly on their first motorcycle. Same
problem, same results.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 5/15/2022 10:16 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 5/14/2022 8:45 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 5/14/2022 5:23 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>> https://nypost.com/2022/05/14/beware-the-e-bike-menace-in-nyc-they-must-be-banned/
>>>
>>
>>
>> As I've probably posted before, one noted bike advocate has
>> said that until now, anyone who could do 20 mph on a bike
>> has probably had years of experience at slower speeds,
>> during which they learned not to make certain mistakes. They
>> gradually built up skills needed when riding fast.
>>
>> Now any klutz can immediately do ~20 mph or more on a bike.
>> Yesterday we followed a guy doing 30 on an electric bike for
>> quite a while. It had "ape hanger" style raised handlebars
>> and didn't look like a paragon of stability.
>>
>> Put that together with the typical novice's ignorance of
>> traffic laws and ignorance of acceptable behavior and yes,
>> it's a problem.
>>
>> These things should have been legally limited to 12 mph. But
>> the industry paid to be sure that was not the case.
>>
>>
>
> I had a similar conversation last week with a man with several years of
> competitive motorcycle racing who also noted that handling/ awareness of
> other traffic and impediments is sorely lacking both for e-bike renters
> and for middle-age/elderly on their first motorcycle. Same problem, same
> results.

I don't get deeply into motorcycle safety data, as I do with bicycling
safety data. But ISTR seeing data indicating the bulk of the data
proving motorcycling's comparative danger is due to novices crashes.
That's probably more so with 18-year-old novices (who still believe
they're bulletproof) but I'm sure older novices have lousy knowledge and
skills too.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On 5/14/2022 5:23 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> https://nypost.com/2022/05/14/beware-the-e-bike-menace-in-nyc-they-must-be-banned/
>
> As I've probably posted before, one noted bike advocate has said that
> until now, anyone who could do 20 mph on a bike has probably had years
> of experience at slower speeds, during which they learned not to make
> certain mistakes. They gradually built up skills needed when riding fast.
>
> Now any klutz can immediately do ~20 mph or more on a bike. Yesterday we
> followed a guy doing 30 on an electric bike for quite a while. It had
> "ape hanger" style raised handlebars and didn't look like a paragon of
> stability.
>
> Put that together with the typical novice's ignorance of traffic laws
> and ignorance of acceptable behavior and yes, it's a problem.
>
> These things should have been legally limited to 12 mph. But the
> industry paid to be sure that was not the case.
>
>
They are or close enough in Europe, which personally I prefer since I’m a
slow Walker due to boring medical stuff.

To be fair they plus scooters and so on it’s really rare they are attually
a problem.

Cars amber running etc, meaning that my time across a crossing is less is
much more so due to the above slow walk etc.

In short they are new but generally not a problem.

And my mates EMTB is a hoot! Kept up with me on a fairly epic pre Roman
road ride few weeks back!

Roger Merriman.

On Sunday, May 15, 2022 at 12:43:30 PM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote:
> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> > On 5/14/2022 5:23 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> >> https://nypost.com/2022/05/14/beware-the-e-bike-menace-in-nyc-they-must-be-banned/
> >
> > As I've probably posted before, one noted bike advocate has said that
> > until now, anyone who could do 20 mph on a bike has probably had years
> > of experience at slower speeds, during which they learned not to make
> > certain mistakes. They gradually built up skills needed when riding fast.
> >
> > Now any klutz can immediately do ~20 mph or more on a bike. Yesterday we
> > followed a guy doing 30 on an electric bike for quite a while. It had
> > "ape hanger" style raised handlebars and didn't look like a paragon of
> > stability.
> >
> > Put that together with the typical novice's ignorance of traffic laws
> > and ignorance of acceptable behavior and yes, it's a problem.
> >
> > These things should have been legally limited to 12 mph. But the
> > industry paid to be sure that was not the case.
> >
> >
> They are or close enough in Europe, which personally I prefer since I’m a
> slow Walker due to boring medical stuff.
>
> To be fair they plus scooters and so on it’s really rare they are attually
> a problem.
>
> Cars amber running etc, meaning that my time across a crossing is less is
> much more so due to the above slow walk etc.
>
> In short they are new but generally not a problem.
>
> And my mates EMTB is a hoot! Kept up with me on a fairly epic pre Roman
> road ride few weeks back!

For reasons absolutely beyond me the yellow lights are usually very short here. I am a fast walker and can seldom make it across a crosswalk before the light changes. And very often a right turning cars might very well cut you off before you're out of the crosswalk. This used to be strongly discouraged with traffic laws but that seems to have been thrown to the side these days.

On Sun, 15 May 2022 14:35:59 +0200, Sepp Ruf <inqbel@Safe-mail.net>
wrote:

>John B. wrote:
>> On Sat, 14 May 2022 21:45:06 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 5/14/2022 5:23 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> https://nypost.com/2022/05/14/beware-the-e-bike-menace-in-nyc-they-must-be-banned/
>>>
>>> As I've probably posted before, one noted bike advocate has said that
>>> until now, anyone who could do 20 mph on a bike has probably had years
>>> of experience at slower speeds, during which they learned not to make
>>> certain mistakes. They gradually built up skills needed when riding fast.
>>>
>>> Now any klutz can immediately do ~20 mph or more on a bike. Yesterday we
>>> followed a guy doing 30 on an electric bike for quite a while. It had
>>> "ape hanger" style raised handlebars and didn't look like a paragon of
>>> stability.
>
>BTW, are there lightweight coal-running devices for mounting on bicycle
>racks? Asking for a friend.
>
>>> Put that together with the typical novice's ignorance of traffic laws
>>> and ignorance of acceptable behavior and yes, it's a problem.
>>>
>>> These things should have been legally limited to 12 mph. But the
>>> industry paid to be sure that was not the case.
>
>You must be a conspiracy theorist and ableist believer in magical
>numbers! Or can you argue 12 vs 15 mph?
>
>> Well, they are, in essence, a "motorcycle" :-)
>>
>> Singapore, being Singapore, has made some rather draconian laws
>> concerning electric Bikes.
>> https://www.mrlifechanger.com/is-ebike-allowed-singapore/
>> But it does limit what is basically an electric bicycle to certain,
>> what appear to be logical, limits.
>
>The headwear rule, the 20 kilo limit, and undefined construction limits
>point to Singapore draconians not being entirely reasonable. To change
>my mind, show me their debates and discussions.

As I said, "logical limits". The "draconian" was in reference to the
U.S.'s apparently nonexistent rules in that area.

However Singapore does have laws that appear to most foreigners as
harsh. No spitting on the street, no feeding birds except in
designated areas. Why! you can't even pee in an elevator and a large
number of elevators, particularly in the housing areas, have a "Urine
Detector". If you should be caught short and urinate in the elevator
it will be detected, the doors will lock shut and the police will be
notified.

The fine for most of these malfeasances is a $1000 fine, and back in
the day when the rules were first promulgated $1000 was, for a working
man, a month's salary.
--
Cheers,

John B.