Around here, there's renewed discussion of "Idaho Stop" laws, those
which permit bicyclists to treat a stop sign as a yield sign. In other
words, yield when necessary but without a requirement of a complete
stop. It's been a year or more since we've discussed them here.

Last I recall, Jay Beatty said the new-ish Oregon version was working
well, with no increase in crashes, no enforcement problems, no
particular complaints from motorists or legislators. Is that still true
there and in other states with similar laws?

It occurs to me that there might be problems with newbies on eBikes,
approaching stop signs at much higher speed and having difficulty
stopping quickly when they realize a sudden need. Other than that, those
laws seem eminently reasonable to me, especially when I'm captaining our
tandem.

Any new feedback out there?

--
- Frank Krygowski

Cars make Idaho stops all the time, and it works wonderfully.

Why do we need a separate law for bikes? If you get ticketed
for an Idaho stop, you didn't do it right -- the charge should
be "failing to pay attention" rather than "running a stop sign".

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at centurylink dot net

On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 8:27:18 PM UTC-4, Joy Beeson wrote:
> Cars make Idaho stops all the time, and it works wonderfully.
>
> Why do we need a separate law for bikes? If you get ticketed
> for an Idaho stop, you didn't do it right -- the charge should
> be "failing to pay attention" rather than "running a stop sign".
>
> --
> Joy Beeson
> joy beeson at centurylink dot net

Where I drive, bikes are all but nonexistent. If every single bike rider universally did this, it would make zero difference.

What happens if everyone is on a bike? (Shades of Immanuel reference)

On 5/17/2022 8:27 PM, Joy Beeson wrote:
>
> Cars make Idaho stops all the time, and it works wonderfully.
>
> Why do we need a separate law for bikes?

Actually, I'm not convinced we do. But some people I work with on bike
legislation think we do. I'm happy with the current situation, which is
pretty much benign neglect.

And as I've noted before, our house sits across from a T intersection
with a stop sign. I've counted. Half the cars do not come to a complete
stop.

> If you get ticketed
> for an Idaho stop, you didn't do it right -- the charge should
> be "failing to pay attention" rather than "running a stop sign".

I've purposely done a not-quite-complete stop in front of a police
cruiser at a four way stop. No problem, no repercussions. But I do think
most stop signs should really be changed to yield signs. Not that it's
ever going to happen.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:

> On 5/17/2022 8:27 PM, Joy Beeson wrote:
>> Cars make Idaho stops all the time, and it works wonderfully.
>> Why do we need a separate law for bikes?
>
> Actually, I'm not convinced we do. But some people I work with on bike
> legislation think we do. I'm happy with the current situation, which
> is pretty much benign neglect.
>
> And as I've noted before, our house sits across from a T intersection
> with a stop sign. I've counted. Half the cars do not come to a
> complete stop.
>
>> If you get ticketed
>> for an Idaho stop, you didn't do it right -- the charge should
>> be "failing to pay attention" rather than "running a stop sign".
>
> I've purposely done a not-quite-complete stop in front of a police
> cruiser at a four way stop. No problem, no repercussions. But I do
> think most stop signs should really be changed to yield signs. Not
> that it's ever going to happen.

Might be an improvement if the stop signs on MUPs could be treated as
yield signs. Some of the stop signs are on intersections with barely
glorified driveways.

On 5/18/2022 2:10 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
> Frank Krygowski writes:
>
>> ... I do
>> think most stop signs should really be changed to yield signs. Not
>> that it's ever going to happen.
>
> Might be an improvement if the stop signs on MUPs could be treated as
> yield signs. Some of the stop signs are on intersections with barely
> glorified driveways.

I remember riding one sidepath along a highway (west of Des Moines, I
think) that had stop signs for bikes at every gravel driveway.
Absolutely nuts.

And our local metropark had a terribly designed sidepath along a park
roadway. They installed stop signs for bikes PLUS a transverse set of
collision hazard bollards at each of 13 pullouts for parking. We fought
that design for decades. The designer has now retired, and the state DOT
has finally said it's non-compliant, so we're hoping for a solution in
the future.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Wed, 18 May 2022 11:42:46 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 5/17/2022 8:27 PM, Joy Beeson wrote:
>>
>> Cars make Idaho stops all the time, and it works wonderfully.
>>
>> Why do we need a separate law for bikes?
>
>Actually, I'm not convinced we do. But some people I work with on bike
>legislation think we do. I'm happy with the current situation, which is
>pretty much benign neglect.
>
>And as I've noted before, our house sits across from a T intersection
>with a stop sign. I've counted. Half the cars do not come to a complete
>stop.
>
>> If you get ticketed
>> for an Idaho stop, you didn't do it right -- the charge should
>> be "failing to pay attention" rather than "running a stop sign".
>
>I've purposely done a not-quite-complete stop in front of a police
>cruiser at a four way stop. No problem, no repercussions. But I do think
>most stop signs should really be changed to yield signs. Not that it's
>ever going to happen.

Well.... if they won't stop, will they yield?
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 2:26:03 PM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 5/18/2022 2:10 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
> > Frank Krygowski writes:
> >
> >> ... I do
> >> think most stop signs should really be changed to yield signs. Not
> >> that it's ever going to happen.
> >
> > Might be an improvement if the stop signs on MUPs could be treated as
> > yield signs. Some of the stop signs are on intersections with barely
> > glorified driveways.
> I remember riding one sidepath along a highway (west of Des Moines, I
> think) that had stop signs for bikes at every gravel driveway.
> Absolutely nuts.
>

I know exactly where you were riding. Some of the trail west of Des Moines is in open farmland. No sight restrictions at all. Gravel roads crossing the trails every quarter mile or so. Easy to ignore the stop signs and look before riding through. But aways further west and the trail is in forest. No farmland nearby. Trees along both sides of the trail. Gravel roads every quarter or half mile or so. And stop signs at every junction. But the bicyclist cannot easily look ahead and see if there are no cars or not. And the gravel roads have the right away and cars do not stop or even slow down for the trail crossing. So it seems to me having stop signs is appropriate.

> And our local metropark had a terribly designed sidepath along a park
> roadway. They installed stop signs for bikes PLUS a transverse set of
> collision hazard bollards at each of 13 pullouts for parking. We fought
> that design for decades. The designer has now retired, and the state DOT
> has finally said it's non-compliant, so we're hoping for a solution in
> the future.
>
> --
> - Frank Krygowski

On Mon, 16 May 2022 11:54:27 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>Around here, there's renewed discussion of "Idaho Stop" laws, those
>which permit bicyclists to treat a stop sign as a yield sign. In other
>words, yield when necessary but without a requirement of a complete
>stop. It's been a year or more since we've discussed them here.
>
>Last I recall, Jay Beatty said the new-ish Oregon version was working
>well, with no increase in crashes, no enforcement problems, no
>particular complaints from motorists or legislators. Is that still true
>there and in other states with similar laws?
>
>It occurs to me that there might be problems with newbies on eBikes,
>approaching stop signs at much higher speed and having difficulty
>stopping quickly when they realize a sudden need. Other than that, those
>laws seem eminently reasonable to me, especially when I'm captaining our
>tandem.
>
>Any new feedback out there?

Yep. I have a product idea. GPS is good for many things, but the one
thing that it does VERY well is measure speed and acceleration. It
would be fairly easy[1][2] to design a GPS tracker/logger that logs
it's general location, but also logs all the full and partial stops.
Maybe have the tracker generate an irritating beep if the driver fails
to come to a complete stop.

If too messy or inaccurate, a 2 axis accelerometer should be able to
detect when the vehicle (or bicycle) has stopped moving. However,
without GPS, there would be no way to accurately located the stop
signs and signals.

Yet another project.

[1] One complication is that if the tracker comes to complete stop,
the GPS location wanders around (drunkards walk) at about a 1 mph
speed. The speed never really goes to zero. I think I have a way to
deal with that, but it needs testing.
<https://stackoverflow.com/questions/41805990/android-location-going-for-a-walk-by-itself>

[2] Another problem is that it won't work very well using a
smartphone because it has to be powered on all the time while the
vehicle is moving. No problem with battery power in a car, but a
bicycle is another story.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 5/19/2022 1:09 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Mon, 16 May 2022 11:54:27 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> Around here, there's renewed discussion of "Idaho Stop" laws, those
>> which permit bicyclists to treat a stop sign as a yield sign. In other
>> words, yield when necessary but without a requirement of a complete
>> stop. It's been a year or more since we've discussed them here.
>>
>> Last I recall, Jay Beatty said the new-ish Oregon version was working
>> well, with no increase in crashes, no enforcement problems, no
>> particular complaints from motorists or legislators. Is that still true
>> there and in other states with similar laws?
>>
>> It occurs to me that there might be problems with newbies on eBikes,
>> approaching stop signs at much higher speed and having difficulty
>> stopping quickly when they realize a sudden need. Other than that, those
>> laws seem eminently reasonable to me, especially when I'm captaining our
>> tandem.
>>
>> Any new feedback out there?
>
> Yep. I have a product idea. GPS is good for many things, but the one
> thing that it does VERY well is measure speed and acceleration. It
> would be fairly easy[1][2] to design a GPS tracker/logger that logs
> it's general location, but also logs all the full and partial stops.
> Maybe have the tracker generate an irritating beep if the driver fails
> to come to a complete stop.
>
> If too messy or inaccurate, a 2 axis accelerometer should be able to
> detect when the vehicle (or bicycle) has stopped moving. However,
> without GPS, there would be no way to accurately located the stop
> signs and signals.
>
> Yet another project.
>
>
> [1] One complication is that if the tracker comes to complete stop,
> the GPS location wanders around (drunkards walk) at about a 1 mph
> speed. The speed never really goes to zero. I think I have a way to
> deal with that, but it needs testing.
> <https://stackoverflow.com/questions/41805990/android-location-going-for-a-walk-by-itself>
>
> [2] Another problem is that it won't work very well using a
> smartphone because it has to be powered on all the time while the
> vehicle is moving. No problem with battery power in a car, but a
> bicycle is another story.

Thanks, I guess. But I was hoping for wheels-on-the-ground feedback from
someone in a state with a new "Idaho stop" law.

Looks like I won't be getting that feedback.

--
- Frank Krygowski