On 5/21/2022 2:23 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 12:10:47 PM UTC-7, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 8:48:10 PM UTC+2, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 7:49:06 AM UTC-7, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 4:07:56 PM UTC+2, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 2:12:45 AM UTC-7, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:09:47 PM UTC+2, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 10:54:39 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks Andrew. It turns out to be a Torx when observed under a bright light.
>>>>>> There you go, just look.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lou
>>>>>>> The wheels I have were made in China but they HAVE to be the same company that manufactures the Shimano Dura Ace C50 wheels.
>>>>>> IIRC Dura Ace wheels are made in Malaysia.
>>>>> Tell me Lou - do you have X-ray vision and can see through rubber covers? This does not peel back far enough to actually see the entire screw head so it appears to be an Allen. Under bright sunlight the visible edge just barely glistens enough to make the Torx edges out. I don't generally have bright Sunlight in the garage and had to disassemble what I had just put together and take it out into the sunlight to do this. And I had JUST taken the Centaur levers off using a 5 mm Allen wrench.
>>>>>
>>>>> Comments like "just look" are not in the least helpful. Didn't we go through this before about Torx being a very bad choice for using in a place where you had to dig around to find the connector with sharp Torx blades and easily cut rubber surfaces?
>>>> Of course you can peel back the hoods to see the screw. Torx is an excellent choice in any application. Ymmv and most of the times it does.
>>> Lou, did you install your own levers or did they come on a pre-made bike? The manual that came with these Campy levers DID NOT tell you how to install them and hence did not mention that they were Torx fittings. I agree with you that Torx is a superior fitting in most applications except in a blind connection with a cover that is so easily destroyed by the Torx edges.
>> I build I think 5 or 6 Campy equipped bikes from scratch. 3 were/are mine. This is one build:
>>
>> https://photos.app.goo.gl/ac62sBVcmk5KbYr7A
>
> The hoods on my Chorus group WOULD NOT peel back like that and I had to open the hoods from the other side, But you can see that you had to take steps to insert the Torx wrench that you had no need to to use an Allen.
>

Not our experience and we build quite a few Ergopower
bicycles. Without a torn hood. Ever.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 5/21/2022 3:50 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Sat, 21 May 2022 13:30:27 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>> Like many in our age group, I carry a pocket magnifier and a
>> mini flashlight. YMMV
>
> I carry a pocket protector with two ink pens, Sharpie pen, hemostat, 2
> rulers, radio tuning tool, several paper clips and pocket screwdriver.
> <http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/drivel/pocket_protector.jpg>
> On my belt, a cheap LiIon flashlight and sometimes a multi-tool:
> <https://www.leatherman.com/wave-10.html> (much too heavy).
> In my pocket, keys, pocket knife (box opener), magnifier:
> <https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61fl8wO-dSL._AC_SL1020_.jpg>
>
> These days, my eyes need help, so I carry prescription driving
> glasses. In the shop, I use either Dollar Store 2.00 diopter
> magnifiers, or close up prescription "reading" glasses from
> ZenniOptical.com (about $40 total). On the bench, I use a loupe with
> built in LED for really close work:
> <https://www.ebay.com/itm/304369338475>
> or a borescope camera connected to a computer or smartphone via USB.
> The camera has built in lighting. Something like this:
> <https://www.ebay.com/itm/403617428620>
>
> It's sometimes difficult to see the difference between a Torx and
> Allen head screws, especially when the screw head is dirty. I put a
> drop of oil or household cleaner into the socket hole, use a wire
> brush to remove any dirt accumulation, and inspect with a magnifier
> and light.
>

>"pen, hemostat, 2 rulers, radio tuning tool,"

Do you run into a lot of arterial spurts in your regular day?

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Sat, 21 May 2022 02:12:41 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
<lou.holtman@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:09:47 PM UTC+2, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 10:54:39 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>
>> Thanks Andrew. It turns out to be a Torx when observed under a bright light.
>
>There you go, just look.
>
>Lou
>
>> The wheels I have were made in China but they HAVE to be the same company that manufactures the Shimano Dura Ace C50 wheels.
>
>IIRC Dura Ace wheels are made in Malaysia.
>
>Lou

Your memory is right on target.
https://www.bicycleretailer.com/north-america/2007/12/19/inside-shimanos-malaysian-wheel-factory#.YolqIewxXQk
"The factory produces all of Shimano’s wheels, including Dura Ace"
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 2:24:28 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 5/21/2022 3:50 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> > On Sat, 21 May 2022 13:30:27 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >
> >> Like many in our age group, I carry a pocket magnifier and a
> >> mini flashlight. YMMV
> >
> > I carry a pocket protector with two ink pens, Sharpie pen, hemostat, 2
> > rulers, radio tuning tool, several paper clips and pocket screwdriver.
> > <http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/drivel/pocket_protector.jpg>
> > On my belt, a cheap LiIon flashlight and sometimes a multi-tool:
> > <https://www.leatherman.com/wave-10.html> (much too heavy).
> > In my pocket, keys, pocket knife (box opener), magnifier:
> > <https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61fl8wO-dSL._AC_SL1020_.jpg>
> >
> > These days, my eyes need help, so I carry prescription driving
> > glasses. In the shop, I use either Dollar Store 2.00 diopter
> > magnifiers, or close up prescription "reading" glasses from
> > ZenniOptical.com (about $40 total). On the bench, I use a loupe with
> > built in LED for really close work:
> > <https://www.ebay.com/itm/304369338475>
> > or a borescope camera connected to a computer or smartphone via USB.
> > The camera has built in lighting. Something like this:
> > <https://www.ebay.com/itm/403617428620>
> >
> > It's sometimes difficult to see the difference between a Torx and
> > Allen head screws, especially when the screw head is dirty. I put a
> > drop of oil or household cleaner into the socket hole, use a wire
> > brush to remove any dirt accumulation, and inspect with a magnifier
> > and light.
> >
>
>
> >"pen, hemostat, 2 rulers, radio tuning tool,"
> Do you run into a lot of arterial spurts in your regular day?

I would assume that Jeff is a good computer repairman. Tools like that are usually only used by people that have seen just about every failure possible and prefer to be prepared.

On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 9:07:56 AM UTC-5, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 2:12:45 AM UTC-7, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:09:47 PM UTC+2, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 10:54:39 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > >
> > > Thanks Andrew. It turns out to be a Torx when observed under a bright light.
> > There you go, just look.
> >
> > Lou
> > > The wheels I have were made in China but they HAVE to be the same company that manufactures the Shimano Dura Ace C50 wheels.
> > IIRC Dura Ace wheels are made in Malaysia.
> Tell me Lou - do you have X-ray vision and can see through rubber covers? This does not peel back far enough to actually see the entire screw head so it appears to be an Allen. Under bright sunlight the visible edge just barely glistens enough to make the Torx edges out. I don't generally have bright Sunlight in the garage and had to disassemble what I had just put together and take it out into the sunlight to do this. And I had JUST taken the Centaur levers off using a 5 mm Allen wrench.
>

Most people living in the USA, and almost every other part of the modern world, have these things called lamps. They are portable and can be moved around very easily. So you could easily carry one from the living room to the garage to illuminate very brightly your bicycle work area. Or even put the lamp right by the shift levers to see the bolt holes underneath. And of course there are these things called flashlights. They are powered by batteries and produce a lot of light in front of the lens. And they are handheld so easy to move wherever you want to see.

Personally I have several of these types of lamps to really light up an area. A big area.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/HDX-250-Watt-Portable-Halogen-Work-Light-265669/300453898

These are really useful for everything. Get one Tommy.
https://www.harborfreight.com/500-lumen-led-hands-free-spotfloodred-light-headlamp-58883.html

Tommy, in the modern world, sunlight is not required for viewing. Electricity and lamps work very well. Especially at night and in dim areas.

And Tommy boy, even if you are too lazy to use artificial lighting for your project, for some reason. A competent mechanic, or even one with just a functioning brain, would peel the cover back enough to get a tool into the hole. Then use a selection of tools to place in the hole and judge which fit best. For instance, if you try to put a straight screwdriver into a Phillips screw hole, it will not fit. So you know its not a straight head. And with Phillips screws, there are three sizes. #1, #2, #3. Putting the wrong or right Phillips head into the screw hole and you will instantly know if it fits or not. And with Torx, they are easy to size blindly. They fit or do not fit. No guessing at all. With Allen heads, there is a possibility of standard and metric being close but not exact. So it will take more testing to narrow down to the right size. But it can be done.

Tommy, I know you are very limited in brainpower. And everyone else knows this too. Except you for some odd reason. One would think a person who demonstrates his unintelligence every single day of his life would finally realize he is not intelligent. But I guess that requires intelligence to make that realization. Anyway. I am confident you can use your small brainpower to solve simple things like which size screw driver. Try Tommy, try.

> Comments like "just look" are not in the least helpful. Didn't we go through this before about Torx being a very bad choice for using in a place where you had to dig around to find the connector with sharp Torx blades and easily cut rubber surfaces?

On 5/21/2022 4:50 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>
> These days, my eyes need help, so I carry prescription driving
> glasses. In the shop, I use either Dollar Store 2.00 diopter
> magnifiers, or close up prescription "reading" glasses from
> ZenniOptical.com (about $40 total).

When I was first running into minor presbyopia, I started carrying a
very thin fresnel lens magnifier in my wallet, about credit card size.
It came in unusually handy one day.

A good friend (and former student) of mine invited us to bring our
kayaks to a river close to his house for a paddle with a mid-trip picnic
lunch. He and his wife were in their canoe. He said not to worry, he'd
bring all we needed in his canoe. And he did - drinks and hot dogs in a
cooler, a small charcoal grill, buns, condiments, napkins, utensils,
dessert, and charcoal.

But as we found when we pulled onto a small island, he had brought no
matches or lighter. He was mortified and apologized profusely.

I remembered my fresnel lens. It was sunny, but the 2" x 3" lens didn't
seem up to the job. It did nothing worthwhile on a chunk of charcoal or
a white napkin. I then tried scraping some charcoal powder on the
napkin, and it absorbed well enough to char along a thin line, but not
to burn.

I then formed a sort of tunnel in a balled-up napkin, scraped charcoal
dust into the hole and focused the beam into the hole. Success! And the
hot dogs were soon hot.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 2:20:09 PM UTC-5, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 12:16:35 PM UTC-7, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 9:13:44 PM UTC+2, sms wrote:
> > > On 5/21/2022 2:12 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > > On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:09:47 PM UTC+2, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > >> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 10:54:39 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> Thanks Andrew. It turns out to be a Torx when observed under a bright light.
> > > >
> > > > There you go, just look.
> > > >
> > > > Lou
> > > >
> > > >> The wheels I have were made in China but they HAVE to be the same company that manufactures the Shimano Dura Ace C50 wheels.
> > > >
> > > > IIRC Dura Ace wheels are made in Malaysia.
> > > In any case, the factory is immaterial. I've been to contract
> > > manufacturers all over the world. For one customer they can be building
> > > a high-quality product, for another customer they can be building a
> > > product with parts from all over the world that no one else wants.
> > I don't think Shimano outsource their wheels. These are Shimano factory, with local assembly people but Japanese management for their DA line.
> You're probably right but the wheels I obtained look exactly the same and have the same weight. So if they aren't Shimano they are nearly a perfect copy.

Tommy, that is what counterfeiters, fake companies, rip off artists, do. They make copies that are difficult to tell from the original. Unless you know what you are looking for. And notice the wrong things being used. Or things done in the original way. I am sure your wheels are cosmetically the same as genuine Shimano wheels. The fakers can get glossy topcoats that look just as glossy as Shimano wheels. And they have their carbon fibers woven in the same texture as Shimano. And use similar looking spokes. But the spoke metal is not the same quality as Shimano. And the carbon is not the same quality as Shimano. Even though it looks the same from outside. And the final assemblers do not tighten everything as uniformly and tightly as Shimano does. You bought fake counterfeit wheels that you are trying to pretend or sell to others as genuine Shimano wheels.

On Sat, 21 May 2022 16:24:24 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 5/21/2022 3:50 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>"pen, hemostat, 2 rulers, radio tuning tool,"
>Do you run into a lot of arterial spurts in your regular day?

No. I'm a computer mechanic, not a body mechanic. I fix things, not
people.

Most of the tools in my pocket protector are used in ways for which
they were NOT originally intended. The hemostat I carry in my pocket
is mostly used for fishing dropped parts out of inaccessible cavities
inside a computer. It's also used as a substitute for pliers, such as
holding parts in position for soldering, positioning small screws,
holding brake and shifter cables for clamping, threading needles,
extracting staples and paper clips from keyboards, etc. I sometimes
use it for handling things that I don't want to touch with unprotected
fingers. Lots of other uses, most of which did not become obvious
until after I started carrying a pocket hemostat.

I suggest a 12cm (5in) curved hemostat for pocket use:
<https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=hemostats+curved+5+inch&LH_PrefLoc=1>
I have spares and different sizes in all my tool boxes and kitchen
tools. Keeping the serrated tips clean requires a brass wire brush
and any cleaning solution. My only problems are explaining that it's
not a roach clip and some really poor quality hemostats from Pakistan.

Also, since I retired near the end of 2020, I have not had a day which
I might call "regular" as in repetitive. Every day is a different and
unique combination of weird problems to solve. Unfortunately, there's
a demand for my services, usually an emergency, that keeps me busy.
Having closed my office and removed most of the computer repair tools
and parts from my car, I'm finding it difficult to operate
efficiently. Oddly, the hemostat and pocket screwdriver combination
has worked will for improvisation.
<https://www.ebay.com/itm/252642506002>
Incidentally, the "-" screwdriver is a tolerable substitute for a #2
Philips screwdriver for anything that doesn't require much torque.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Sat, 21 May 2022 16:44:06 -0700 (PDT), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
<ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 2:20:09 PM UTC-5, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> You're probably right but the wheels I obtained look exactly the same and have the same weight. So if they aren't Shimano they are nearly a perfect copy.

>Tommy, that is what counterfeiters, fake companies, rip off artists, do. They make copies that are difficult to tell from the original. Unless you know what you are looking for. And notice the wrong things being used. Or things done in the original way. I am sure your wheels are cosmetically the same as genuine Shimano wheels. The fakers can get glossy topcoats that look just as glossy as Shimano wheels. And they have their carbon fibers woven in the same texture as Shimano. And use similar looking spokes. But the spoke metal is not the same quality as Shimano. And the carbon is not the same quality as Shimano. Even though it looks the same from outside. And the final assemblers do not tighten everything as uniformly and tightly as Shimano does. You bought fake counterfeit wheels that you are trying to pretend or sell to others as genuine Shimano wheels.

"Shimano anti-counterfeiting program"
<https://bike.shimano.com/en-EU/information/anti-counterfeit.html>

"Shimano steps up efforts to beat counterfeiters"
<https://road.cc/content/news/shimano-steps-efforts-beat-counterfeiters-282151>

"Fake Shimano bike parts"
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtg-hizr5mw> (7:30)

It looks like Shimano is copy protecting the packaging and not the
product itself. That's not going to be very useful for used items
sold on eBay which have no packaging. Having the QR code expire after
3 reads is going to be a problem for retail, where casual shoppers are
going to want to test if the product is authentic. After 3 customer
tests, the store can't prove authenticity. Methinks Campagnolo does
it better using Certilogo.
<https://www.campagnolo.com/US/en/CampyWorld/Corporate/campagnolo_against_forgery>
<https://www.campagnolo.com/US/en/Wheels/certilogo_2>

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Sat, 21 May 2022 21:18:24 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:
(chomp)
><https://www.campagnolo.com/US/en/CampyWorld/Corporate/campagnolo_against_forgery>
><https://www.campagnolo.com/US/en/Wheels/certilogo_2>

Digging deeper into how Certilogo works:
<https://discover.certilogo.com/en/faq-people>

Is it possible to check the authenticity of a product sold online
before purchase?

No, to be sure that the product is authentic it is necessary to have
it with you.
Finding the Certilogo Code published online, or receiving a photograph
from the seller, does not guarantee that the product is authentic. The
only way to be sure that a product is authentic is to perform an
authenticity check when you have it with you.
Several products sold online come with an active SOA - Certilogo’s
Seal of Authentication.
The SOA is a digital twin of the smart tag showing the CLG Code that
sellers can get from Certilogo and display in their online listings to
prove that they are selling an authentic product. Buyers can scan the
SOA they find in the online listing to check that the product is
authentic. To make sure that the product shipped is the original one,
we recommend that you scan the physical tag you find attached to the
product once you receive it. If you wish to verify the authenticity of
a product sold online before purchase and there’s no active SOA in the
listing, do not worry: Certilogo will show you how to ask the seller
to provide one.

I am an online buyer - how does the SOA work?

If you are considering purchasing a product offered online and
equipped with a smart tag with a CLG Code, the seller may have
published a SOA on their site or advertisement. In such cases, you
just need to scan the QR code on the SOA using a smartphone or merely
type the digits on the CLG Code (eg. CLG 000 000 000 000) on
www.certilogo.com/code and follow the instructions.
The reply "Authentic" means that the online seller actually has a
genuine product and you can buy it with peace of mind. Upon receiving
the product, scan the accompanying physical smart tag, so you can
confirm that the seller has shipped the correct product.
The reply "False", on the other hand, means that the online seller has
fraudulently copied the SOA of another legitimate online seller,
naively believing that they can circumvent our anti-counterfeiting
system.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 5/21/2022 4:44 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:

<snip>

> Tommy, that is what counterfeiters, fake companies, rip off artists, do. They make copies that are difficult to tell from the original. Unless you know what you are looking for. And notice the wrong things being used.

My next door neighbor works at a luxury goods store in Palo Alto (and
previously worked at one in Santa Clara). One of the services these
stores provide is to advise clients if a product they purchased
elsewhere is authentic. She said that there are excellent fakes and bad
fakes. Presumably there could be a perfect fake that is undetectable.

And then there's Costco. Somehow Costco will obtain genuine luxury
products and resell them at a lower price. She looked at an item one
client brought in, it was genuine, and was purchased at Costco for a
slightly lower price. Costco in China has become popular for luxury
goods because Chinese consumers know that they're buying genuine items
<https://jingdaily.com/chinese-whispers-luxury-handbag-frenzy-at-costco-in-shanghai-and-more/>

If you recall the whole Cannondale/Costco episode
<https://www.bicycleretailer.com/international/2012/10/03/cannondale-shuts-distributor-over-costco-sales>
those bicycles were not counterfeit.

There's probably no place that Tom can take those wheels to find out if
they're counterfeit.

On 5/21/2022 6:44 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 2:20:09 PM UTC-5, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 12:16:35 PM UTC-7, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 9:13:44 PM UTC+2, sms wrote:
>>>> On 5/21/2022 2:12 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:09:47 PM UTC+2, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 10:54:39 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks Andrew. It turns out to be a Torx when observed under a bright light.
>>>>>
>>>>> There you go, just look.
>>>>>
>>>>> Lou
>>>>>
>>>>>> The wheels I have were made in China but they HAVE to be the same company that manufactures the Shimano Dura Ace C50 wheels.
>>>>>
>>>>> IIRC Dura Ace wheels are made in Malaysia.
>>>> In any case, the factory is immaterial. I've been to contract
>>>> manufacturers all over the world. For one customer they can be building
>>>> a high-quality product, for another customer they can be building a
>>>> product with parts from all over the world that no one else wants.
>>> I don't think Shimano outsource their wheels. These are Shimano factory, with local assembly people but Japanese management for their DA line.
>> You're probably right but the wheels I obtained look exactly the same and have the same weight. So if they aren't Shimano they are nearly a perfect copy.
>
> Tommy, that is what counterfeiters, fake companies, rip off artists, do. They make copies that are difficult to tell from the original. Unless you know what you are looking for. And notice the wrong things being used. Or things done in the original way. I am sure your wheels are cosmetically the same as genuine Shimano wheels. The fakers can get glossy topcoats that look just as glossy as Shimano wheels. And they have their carbon fibers woven in the same texture as Shimano. And use similar looking spokes. But the spoke metal is not the same quality as Shimano. And the carbon is not the same quality as Shimano. Even though it looks the same from outside. And the final assemblers do not tighten everything as uniformly and tightly as Shimano does. You bought fake counterfeit wheels that you are trying to pretend or sell to others as genuine Shimano wheels.
>

Not only bicycle wheels. And not a recent phenomenon at all:

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1989-01-27-mn-1479-story.html

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 7:49:06 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 4:07:56 PM UTC+2, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 2:12:45 AM UTC-7, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:09:47 PM UTC+2, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > > On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 10:54:39 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Thanks Andrew. It turns out to be a Torx when observed under a bright light.
> > > There you go, just look.
> > >
> > > Lou
> > > > The wheels I have were made in China but they HAVE to be the same company that manufactures the Shimano Dura Ace C50 wheels.
> > > IIRC Dura Ace wheels are made in Malaysia.
> > Tell me Lou - do you have X-ray vision and can see through rubber covers? This does not peel back far enough to actually see the entire screw head so it appears to be an Allen. Under bright sunlight the visible edge just barely glistens enough to make the Torx edges out. I don't generally have bright Sunlight in the garage and had to disassemble what I had just put together and take it out into the sunlight to do this. And I had JUST taken the Centaur levers off using a 5 mm Allen wrench.
> >
> > Comments like "just look" are not in the least helpful. Didn't we go through this before about Torx being a very bad choice for using in a place where you had to dig around to find the connector with sharp Torx blades and easily cut rubber surfaces?
> Of course you can peel back the hoods to see the screw. Torx is an excellent choice in any application. Ymmv and most of the times it does.
>
> Lou
I can plainly see from your photograph that your hood was flexible enough to pull back. A question might be why did you feel the need to do that when all previous levers made by Campy and Shimano and SRAM had a channel to insert the wrench down. I suggest you did that because you're quite aware that you can cut the inside of the hood with the sharp edges of the Torx wench. While I agree with you that it is an optimal wrench for aluminum fittings, that in this application the slight savings in weight are far outweighed by the chance of danage to the hoods.

On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 8:51:35 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 5/21/2022 6:44 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 2:20:09 PM UTC-5, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 12:16:35 PM UTC-7, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 9:13:44 PM UTC+2, sms wrote:
> >>>> On 5/21/2022 2:12 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> >>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:09:47 PM UTC+2, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 10:54:39 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Thanks Andrew. It turns out to be a Torx when observed under a bright light.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> There you go, just look.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Lou
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> The wheels I have were made in China but they HAVE to be the same company that manufactures the Shimano Dura Ace C50 wheels.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> IIRC Dura Ace wheels are made in Malaysia.
> >>>> In any case, the factory is immaterial. I've been to contract
> >>>> manufacturers all over the world. For one customer they can be building
> >>>> a high-quality product, for another customer they can be building a
> >>>> product with parts from all over the world that no one else wants.
> >>> I don't think Shimano outsource their wheels. These are Shimano factory, with local assembly people but Japanese management for their DA line.
> >> You're probably right but the wheels I obtained look exactly the same and have the same weight. So if they aren't Shimano they are nearly a perfect copy.
> >
> > Tommy, that is what counterfeiters, fake companies, rip off artists, do.. They make copies that are difficult to tell from the original. Unless you know what you are looking for. And notice the wrong things being used. Or things done in the original way. I am sure your wheels are cosmetically the same as genuine Shimano wheels. The fakers can get glossy topcoats that look just as glossy as Shimano wheels. And they have their carbon fibers woven in the same texture as Shimano. And use similar looking spokes. But the spoke metal is not the same quality as Shimano. And the carbon is not the same quality as Shimano. Even though it looks the same from outside. And the final assemblers do not tighten everything as uniformly and tightly as Shimano does. You bought fake counterfeit wheels that you are trying to pretend or sell to others as genuine Shimano wheels.
> >
> Not only bicycle wheels. And not a recent phenomenon at all:
>
> https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1989-01-27-mn-1479-story.html
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

These wheels are hardly dangerous since they look and weight the same as the D50 Dura Ace wheels and I have been using them for a year. My SpeedDream wheels appear to be something else though - I have noticed that those super-light wheels seem to be flexing on fast corners so they will be replaced with the Shamals.

I'm sure that these superlight wheels will work fine for the much smaller and lighter rider. I am simply getting too heavy for them now. If they knock a lb off of my Douglas Vector, I can kick the price up to $1,500. It is presently 17.5 lbs and has Look Delta pedals on it. It is a 58 cm bike so made for a smaller rider.

I sold the Merlin on Friday morning and the Douglas Titanium yesterday. This leaves me with three more bikes to sell and then that is the end of it. The Trek as a weekly rider, the Colnago C50 as a century bike and those sorts of rides and the gravel bike. Oh, yeah, the Backroads as a grocery bike.

The Colnago CLX3.0 is presently down since I'm putting a 105 crank on it. That FSA crank lock is pure crap. And I cannot find compact Dura Ace 172.5 cranks for a reasonable price. And after breaking two of them I wouldn't trust another. But the 105 is a 1 ounce heavier crank that is solid aluminum.

On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 7:18:23 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 7:49:06 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 4:07:56 PM UTC+2, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 2:12:45 AM UTC-7, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:09:47 PM UTC+2, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > > > On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 10:54:39 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks Andrew. It turns out to be a Torx when observed under a bright light.
> > > > There you go, just look.
> > > >
> > > > Lou
> > > > > The wheels I have were made in China but they HAVE to be the same company that manufactures the Shimano Dura Ace C50 wheels.
> > > > IIRC Dura Ace wheels are made in Malaysia.
> > > Tell me Lou - do you have X-ray vision and can see through rubber covers? This does not peel back far enough to actually see the entire screw head so it appears to be an Allen. Under bright sunlight the visible edge just barely glistens enough to make the Torx edges out. I don't generally have bright Sunlight in the garage and had to disassemble what I had just put together and take it out into the sunlight to do this. And I had JUST taken the Centaur levers off using a 5 mm Allen wrench.
> > >
> > > Comments like "just look" are not in the least helpful. Didn't we go through this before about Torx being a very bad choice for using in a place where you had to dig around to find the connector with sharp Torx blades and easily cut rubber surfaces?
> > Of course you can peel back the hoods to see the screw. Torx is an excellent choice in any application. Ymmv and most of the times it does.
> >
> > Lou
> I can plainly see from your photograph that your hood was flexible enough to pull back. A question might be why did you feel the need to do that when all previous levers made by Campy and Shimano and SRAM had a channel to insert the wrench down. I suggest you did that because you're quite aware that you can cut the inside of the hood with the sharp edges of the Torx wench. While I agree with you that it is an optimal wrench for aluminum fittings, that in this application the slight savings in weight are far outweighed by the chance of danage to the hoods.

Why did I do that? Because the f*cking manual says so and to me it is the logical way. I do the same with my Shimano shifters, like anyone else. Because they don't have the thumb shifter it is easier there. How do you wrap you handlebar tape properly without peeling back the hood BTW? Stop this 'damaging the hoods' nonsense. Never worried about that

Lou

On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 10:46:51 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 7:18:23 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 7:49:06 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 4:07:56 PM UTC+2, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 2:12:45 AM UTC-7, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:09:47 PM UTC+2, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > > > > On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 10:54:39 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks Andrew. It turns out to be a Torx when observed under a bright light.
> > > > > There you go, just look.
> > > > >
> > > > > Lou
> > > > > > The wheels I have were made in China but they HAVE to be the same company that manufactures the Shimano Dura Ace C50 wheels.
> > > > > IIRC Dura Ace wheels are made in Malaysia.
> > > > Tell me Lou - do you have X-ray vision and can see through rubber covers? This does not peel back far enough to actually see the entire screw head so it appears to be an Allen. Under bright sunlight the visible edge just barely glistens enough to make the Torx edges out. I don't generally have bright Sunlight in the garage and had to disassemble what I had just put together and take it out into the sunlight to do this. And I had JUST taken the Centaur levers off using a 5 mm Allen wrench.
> > > >
> > > > Comments like "just look" are not in the least helpful. Didn't we go through this before about Torx being a very bad choice for using in a place where you had to dig around to find the connector with sharp Torx blades and easily cut rubber surfaces?
> > > Of course you can peel back the hoods to see the screw. Torx is an excellent choice in any application. Ymmv and most of the times it does.
> > >
> > > Lou
> > I can plainly see from your photograph that your hood was flexible enough to pull back. A question might be why did you feel the need to do that when all previous levers made by Campy and Shimano and SRAM had a channel to insert the wrench down. I suggest you did that because you're quite aware that you can cut the inside of the hood with the sharp edges of the Torx wench. While I agree with you that it is an optimal wrench for aluminum fittings, that in this application the slight savings in weight are far outweighed by the chance of danage to the hoods.
> Why did I do that? Because the f*cking manual says so and to me it is the logical way. I do the same with my Shimano shifters, like anyone else. Because they don't have the thumb shifter it is easier there. How do you wrap you handlebar tape properly without peeling back the hood BTW? Stop this 'damaging the hoods' nonsense. Never worried about that
>
> Lou

So they changed their method of getting to the tightener from simply sticking the Allen Wrench throught the forward end of the hood down the channel to tighten it up to essentially disassembling the lever/hood including tearing the hood off of the button for downshifting. And YOU think that this is a superior means of connecting the lever to the handlebar since it save perhaps 2 grams? Lou, why are we even arguing about this when the latest Centaur lever has Allen screws that work perfectly well?

Should I get the opinion of a professional racing mechanic?

On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 8:00:27 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 10:46:51 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 7:18:23 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 7:49:06 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 4:07:56 PM UTC+2, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > > > On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 2:12:45 AM UTC-7, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:09:47 PM UTC+2, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > > > > > On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 10:54:39 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks Andrew. It turns out to be a Torx when observed under a bright light.
> > > > > > There you go, just look.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Lou
> > > > > > > The wheels I have were made in China but they HAVE to be the same company that manufactures the Shimano Dura Ace C50 wheels.
> > > > > > IIRC Dura Ace wheels are made in Malaysia.
> > > > > Tell me Lou - do you have X-ray vision and can see through rubber covers? This does not peel back far enough to actually see the entire screw head so it appears to be an Allen. Under bright sunlight the visible edge just barely glistens enough to make the Torx edges out. I don't generally have bright Sunlight in the garage and had to disassemble what I had just put together and take it out into the sunlight to do this. And I had JUST taken the Centaur levers off using a 5 mm Allen wrench.
> > > > >
> > > > > Comments like "just look" are not in the least helpful. Didn't we go through this before about Torx being a very bad choice for using in a place where you had to dig around to find the connector with sharp Torx blades and easily cut rubber surfaces?
> > > > Of course you can peel back the hoods to see the screw. Torx is an excellent choice in any application. Ymmv and most of the times it does.
> > > >
> > > > Lou
> > > I can plainly see from your photograph that your hood was flexible enough to pull back. A question might be why did you feel the need to do that when all previous levers made by Campy and Shimano and SRAM had a channel to insert the wrench down. I suggest you did that because you're quite aware that you can cut the inside of the hood with the sharp edges of the Torx wench. While I agree with you that it is an optimal wrench for aluminum fittings, that in this application the slight savings in weight are far outweighed by the chance of danage to the hoods.
> > Why did I do that? Because the f*cking manual says so and to me it is the logical way. I do the same with my Shimano shifters, like anyone else. Because they don't have the thumb shifter it is easier there. How do you wrap you handlebar tape properly without peeling back the hood BTW? Stop this 'damaging the hoods' nonsense. Never worried about that
> >
> > Lou
> So they changed their method of getting to the tightener from simply sticking the Allen Wrench throught the forward end of the hood down the channel to tighten it up to essentially disassembling the lever/hood including tearing the hood off of the button for downshifting. And YOU think that this is a superior means of connecting the lever to the handlebar since it save perhaps 2 grams? Lou, why are we even arguing about this when the latest Centaur lever has Allen screws that work perfectly well?
>
> Should I get the opinion of a professional racing mechanic?

You making things up and it makes you look stupid. Show me an official Campagnolo manual were sticking a tool blindly under the hood to fasten the shifter is the official method. My position on Torx is that it is a superior design compared to an allen bolt. The world has moved on. Look in your car. A mechanical engineer at my company that uses allen bolts in their designs gets 'fired/shot'.

Lou

On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 10:34:32 AM UTC-5, sms wrote:
> On 5/21/2022 4:44 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> <snip>
> > Tommy, that is what counterfeiters, fake companies, rip off artists, do.. They make copies that are difficult to tell from the original. Unless you know what you are looking for. And notice the wrong things being used.
> My next door neighbor works at a luxury goods store in Palo Alto (and
> previously worked at one in Santa Clara). One of the services these
> stores provide is to advise clients if a product they purchased
> elsewhere is authentic. She said that there are excellent fakes and bad
> fakes. Presumably there could be a perfect fake that is undetectable.
>
> And then there's Costco. Somehow Costco will obtain genuine luxury
> products and resell them at a lower price. She looked at an item one
> client brought in, it was genuine, and was purchased at Costco for a
> slightly lower price. Costco in China has become popular for luxury
> goods because Chinese consumers know that they're buying genuine items
> <https://jingdaily.com/chinese-whispers-luxury-handbag-frenzy-at-costco-in-shanghai-and-more/>
>
> If you recall the whole Cannondale/Costco episode
> <https://www.bicycleretailer.com/international/2012/10/03/cannondale-shuts-distributor-over-costco-sales>
> those bicycles were not counterfeit.
>
> There's probably no place that Tom can take those wheels to find out if
> they're counterfeit.

OK. I believe Costco can find discount luxury goods and Cannondale bikes. Because they are a national or worldwide entity that is a retailer. People contact them to sell products and they know who to contact to obtain legitimate products to sell. I have been in Costco stores. And Sam's Club stores. They usually have products for a bit less than other places. But not half price. Or one fourth the price. Or whatever Tommy boy claims to have bought his Shimano wheels. Tommy claims to have bought all his name brand products for pennies on the dollar. 50-75-90% below retail price. And all brand new, legitimate, above board. That is where the incredulity comes in. 5-10-15% below everyone else? OK, you found a good sale price. But Tommy? He is buying known fake counterfeit items at 50-75-90% below retail.. No doubts at all.

On Sun, 22 May 2022 08:34:26 -0700, sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com>
wrote:

>On 5/21/2022 4:44 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>> Tommy, that is what counterfeiters, fake companies, rip off artists, do. They make copies that are difficult to tell from the original. Unless you know what you are looking for. And notice the wrong things being used.
>
>My next door neighbor works at a luxury goods store in Palo Alto (and
>previously worked at one in Santa Clara). One of the services these
>stores provide is to advise clients if a product they purchased
>elsewhere is authentic. She said that there are excellent fakes and bad
>fakes. Presumably there could be a perfect fake that is undetectable.
>
>And then there's Costco. Somehow Costco will obtain genuine luxury
>products and resell them at a lower price. She looked at an item one
>client brought in, it was genuine, and was purchased at Costco for a
>slightly lower price. Costco in China has become popular for luxury
>goods because Chinese consumers know that they're buying genuine items
><https://jingdaily.com/chinese-whispers-luxury-handbag-frenzy-at-costco-in-shanghai-and-more/>
>
>If you recall the whole Cannondale/Costco episode
><https://www.bicycleretailer.com/international/2012/10/03/cannondale-shuts-distributor-over-costco-sales>
>those bicycles were not counterfeit.
>
>There's probably no place that Tom can take those wheels to find out if
>they're counterfeit.

Well, from the users point of view does it really matter? If it is
economical and it works isn't that basically a success story?
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 10:51:35 AM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> On 5/21/2022 6:44 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 2:20:09 PM UTC-5, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 12:16:35 PM UTC-7, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 9:13:44 PM UTC+2, sms wrote:
> >>>> On 5/21/2022 2:12 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> >>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:09:47 PM UTC+2, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 10:54:39 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Thanks Andrew. It turns out to be a Torx when observed under a bright light.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> There you go, just look.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Lou
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> The wheels I have were made in China but they HAVE to be the same company that manufactures the Shimano Dura Ace C50 wheels.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> IIRC Dura Ace wheels are made in Malaysia.
> >>>> In any case, the factory is immaterial. I've been to contract
> >>>> manufacturers all over the world. For one customer they can be building
> >>>> a high-quality product, for another customer they can be building a
> >>>> product with parts from all over the world that no one else wants.
> >>> I don't think Shimano outsource their wheels. These are Shimano factory, with local assembly people but Japanese management for their DA line.
> >> You're probably right but the wheels I obtained look exactly the same and have the same weight. So if they aren't Shimano they are nearly a perfect copy.
> >
> > Tommy, that is what counterfeiters, fake companies, rip off artists, do.. They make copies that are difficult to tell from the original. Unless you know what you are looking for. And notice the wrong things being used. Or things done in the original way. I am sure your wheels are cosmetically the same as genuine Shimano wheels. The fakers can get glossy topcoats that look just as glossy as Shimano wheels. And they have their carbon fibers woven in the same texture as Shimano. And use similar looking spokes. But the spoke metal is not the same quality as Shimano. And the carbon is not the same quality as Shimano. Even though it looks the same from outside. And the final assemblers do not tighten everything as uniformly and tightly as Shimano does. You bought fake counterfeit wheels that you are trying to pretend or sell to others as genuine Shimano wheels.
> >
> Not only bicycle wheels. And not a recent phenomenon at all:
>
> https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1989-01-27-mn-1479-story.html
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Andy, a quote from your article:

"For example, the Boeing Co. discovered early last year that it had installed more than 2,000 allegedly counterfeit ball bearings in its 737, 747, 757 and 767 commercial jets manufactured between April, 1986, and January, 1988.

Engineers for the Seattle aerospace giant tested a sample of the bearings and found defects that could cause them to break.

Boeing thought it had bought a brand-name bearing manufactured by Torrington Co., a Connecticut-based ball bearings manufacturer. Etchings on the bearings, which were sold by Alliance Bearing Industries of Van Nuys, said they were made by a Torrington division. But in fact, the bearings were manufactured by IJK, a Japanese company."

Now, that did happen 35 years ago. But today, you and me would fight to our last breath to have a Japanese company make our bearings.

On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 12:42:15 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 8:51:35 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > On 5/21/2022 6:44 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 2:20:09 PM UTC-5, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > >> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 12:16:35 PM UTC-7, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >>> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 9:13:44 PM UTC+2, sms wrote:
> > >>>> On 5/21/2022 2:12 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > >>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:09:47 PM UTC+2, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > >>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 10:54:39 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Thanks Andrew. It turns out to be a Torx when observed under a bright light.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> There you go, just look.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Lou
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> The wheels I have were made in China but they HAVE to be the same company that manufactures the Shimano Dura Ace C50 wheels.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> IIRC Dura Ace wheels are made in Malaysia.
> > >>>> In any case, the factory is immaterial. I've been to contract
> > >>>> manufacturers all over the world. For one customer they can be building
> > >>>> a high-quality product, for another customer they can be building a
> > >>>> product with parts from all over the world that no one else wants.
> > >>> I don't think Shimano outsource their wheels. These are Shimano factory, with local assembly people but Japanese management for their DA line.
> > >> You're probably right but the wheels I obtained look exactly the same and have the same weight. So if they aren't Shimano they are nearly a perfect copy.
> > >
> > > Tommy, that is what counterfeiters, fake companies, rip off artists, do. They make copies that are difficult to tell from the original. Unless you know what you are looking for. And notice the wrong things being used. Or things done in the original way. I am sure your wheels are cosmetically the same as genuine Shimano wheels. The fakers can get glossy topcoats that look just as glossy as Shimano wheels. And they have their carbon fibers woven in the same texture as Shimano. And use similar looking spokes. But the spoke metal is not the same quality as Shimano. And the carbon is not the same quality as Shimano. Even though it looks the same from outside. And the final assemblers do not tighten everything as uniformly and tightly as Shimano does. You bought fake counterfeit wheels that you are trying to pretend or sell to others as genuine Shimano wheels.
> > >
> > Not only bicycle wheels. And not a recent phenomenon at all:
> >
> > https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1989-01-27-mn-1479-story.html
> > --
> > Andrew Muzi
> > <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> > Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> These wheels are hardly dangerous since they look and weight the same as the D50 Dura Ace wheels

Ah Yes!!!!! A proclamation from our ENGINEER. Tommy. The wheels look the same. And the wheels weigh the same. Good enough. They are just as good as the name brand wheels. Never mind that wheel building nonsense that fake engineer Jobst Brandt wrote about in his book. Spokes having the same uniform tension. Spokes not being wound up. Spokes having a high enough tension. But not too much or too little. All of that is just nonsense. As Tommy says, the looks and weight are all that matter.

Andy, when you build and sell wheels in your shop, do you sell them based on how good they look and how much they weigh? Do you tell your customers to ignore that nonsense of having them stay true and run straight? And tell them to ignore their spokes being too tight or too loose? Looks and weight. Only thing that matters with wheels. Says Tommy.

> and I have been using them for a year. My SpeedDream wheels appear to be something else though - I have noticed that those super-light wheels seem to be flexing on fast corners so they will be replaced with the Shamals.
>
> I'm sure that these superlight wheels will work fine for the much smaller and lighter rider. I am simply getting too heavy for them now. If they knock a lb off of my Douglas Vector, I can kick the price up to $1,500. It is presently 17.5 lbs and has Look Delta pedals on it. It is a 58 cm bike so made for a smaller rider.
>
> I sold the Merlin on Friday morning and the Douglas Titanium yesterday. This leaves me with three more bikes to sell and then that is the end of it. The Trek as a weekly rider, the Colnago C50 as a century bike and those sorts of rides and the gravel bike. Oh, yeah, the Backroads as a grocery bike..
>
> The Colnago CLX3.0 is presently down since I'm putting a 105 crank on it. That FSA crank lock is pure crap. And I cannot find compact Dura Ace 172.5 cranks for a reasonable price. And after breaking two of them I wouldn't trust another. But the 105 is a 1 ounce heavier crank that is solid aluminum..

On 5/22/2022 2:59 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:

<snip>

> OK. I believe Costco can find discount luxury goods and Cannondale bikes. Because they are a national or worldwide entity that is a retailer. People contact them to sell products and they know who to contact to obtain legitimate products to sell. I have been in Costco stores. And Sam's Club stores. They usually have products for a bit less than other places. But not half price. Or one fourth the price. Or whatever Tommy boy claims to have bought his Shimano wheels. Tommy claims to have bought all his name brand products for pennies on the dollar. 50-75-90% below retail price. And all brand new, legitimate, above board. That is where the incredulity comes in. 5-10-15% below everyone else? OK, you found a good sale price. But Tommy? He is buying known fake counterfeit items at 50-75-90% below retail. No doubts at all.

Yes, a lot of counterfeit products are sold via direct-to-consumer web
sites, mainly from China.

As long as Tom is happy with the counterfeit product, and doesn't try to
sell them to an unsuspecting buyer on eBay or craigslist, it's not a big
issue other than the safety risk, especially an issue on carbon fiber
components.

I've purchased a bunch of electronic components on Aliexpress and on
eBay and all of them have been fine. It's not that I would have objected
to buying them locally. but they are not available. We've lost most of
our electronics stores, both retail and surplus, in Silicon Valley. Some
stuff can be ordered on Digikey if I need something quickly and am
willing to pay a lot more as well as shipping.

On Sun, 22 May 2022 11:00:26 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 10:46:51 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
>> On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 7:18:23 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> > On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 7:49:06 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
>> > > On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 4:07:56 PM UTC+2, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> > > > On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 2:12:45 AM UTC-7, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
>> > > > > On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:09:47 PM UTC+2, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> > > > > > On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 10:54:39 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > Thanks Andrew. It turns out to be a Torx when observed under a bright light.
>> > > > > There you go, just look.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Lou
>> > > > > > The wheels I have were made in China but they HAVE to be the same company that manufactures the Shimano Dura Ace C50 wheels.
>> > > > > IIRC Dura Ace wheels are made in Malaysia.
>> > > > Tell me Lou - do you have X-ray vision and can see through rubber covers? This does not peel back far enough to actually see the entire screw head so it appears to be an Allen. Under bright sunlight the visible edge just barely glistens enough to make the Torx edges out. I don't generally have bright Sunlight in the garage and had to disassemble what I had just put together and take it out into the sunlight to do this. And I had JUST taken the Centaur levers off using a 5 mm Allen wrench.
>> > > >
>> > > > Comments like "just look" are not in the least helpful. Didn't we go through this before about Torx being a very bad choice for using in a place where you had to dig around to find the connector with sharp Torx blades and easily cut rubber surfaces?
>> > > Of course you can peel back the hoods to see the screw. Torx is an excellent choice in any application. Ymmv and most of the times it does.
>> > >
>> > > Lou
>> > I can plainly see from your photograph that your hood was flexible enough to pull back. A question might be why did you feel the need to do that when all previous levers made by Campy and Shimano and SRAM had a channel to insert the wrench down. I suggest you did that because you're quite aware that you can cut the inside of the hood with the sharp edges of the Torx wench. While I agree with you that it is an optimal wrench for aluminum fittings, that in this application the slight savings in weight are far outweighed by the chance of danage to the hoods.
>> Why did I do that? Because the f*cking manual says so and to me it is the logical way. I do the same with my Shimano shifters, like anyone else. Because they don't have the thumb shifter it is easier there. How do you wrap you handlebar tape properly without peeling back the hood BTW? Stop this 'damaging the hoods' nonsense. Never worried about that
>>
>> Lou
>
>So they changed their method of getting to the tightener from simply sticking the Allen Wrench throught the forward end of the hood down the channel to tighten it up to essentially disassembling the lever/hood including tearing the hood off of the button for downshifting. And YOU think that this is a superior means of connecting the lever to the handlebar since it save perhaps 2 grams? Lou, why are we even arguing about this when the latest Centaur lever has Allen screws that work perfectly well?
>
>Should I get the opinion of a professional racing mechanic?

No Tommy, just e-mail Andrew, or someone else that is competent and
they will tell you what to do.

You've already been told the difference between an "Allen Wrench" and
a "Torex Wrench", but for future reference you might want to look at
https://craftsmanprotools.com/types-of-wrenches-guide/
which shows pictures of something like 32 different types of wrenches.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 5/22/2022 5:31 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 10:51:35 AM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 5/21/2022 6:44 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 2:20:09 PM UTC-5, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 12:16:35 PM UTC-7, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 9:13:44 PM UTC+2, sms wrote:
>>>>>> On 5/21/2022 2:12 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:09:47 PM UTC+2, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 10:54:39 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks Andrew. It turns out to be a Torx when observed under a bright light.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There you go, just look.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Lou
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The wheels I have were made in China but they HAVE to be the same company that manufactures the Shimano Dura Ace C50 wheels.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> IIRC Dura Ace wheels are made in Malaysia.
>>>>>> In any case, the factory is immaterial. I've been to contract
>>>>>> manufacturers all over the world. For one customer they can be building
>>>>>> a high-quality product, for another customer they can be building a
>>>>>> product with parts from all over the world that no one else wants.
>>>>> I don't think Shimano outsource their wheels. These are Shimano factory, with local assembly people but Japanese management for their DA line.
>>>> You're probably right but the wheels I obtained look exactly the same and have the same weight. So if they aren't Shimano they are nearly a perfect copy.
>>>
>>> Tommy, that is what counterfeiters, fake companies, rip off artists, do. They make copies that are difficult to tell from the original. Unless you know what you are looking for. And notice the wrong things being used. Or things done in the original way. I am sure your wheels are cosmetically the same as genuine Shimano wheels. The fakers can get glossy topcoats that look just as glossy as Shimano wheels. And they have their carbon fibers woven in the same texture as Shimano. And use similar looking spokes. But the spoke metal is not the same quality as Shimano. And the carbon is not the same quality as Shimano. Even though it looks the same from outside. And the final assemblers do not tighten everything as uniformly and tightly as Shimano does. You bought fake counterfeit wheels that you are trying to pretend or sell to others as genuine Shimano wheels.
>>>
>> Not only bicycle wheels. And not a recent phenomenon at all:
>>
>> https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1989-01-27-mn-1479-story.html
>> --
>> Andrew Muzi
>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>
> Andy, a quote from your article:
>
> "For example, the Boeing Co. discovered early last year that it had installed more than 2,000 allegedly counterfeit ball bearings in its 737, 747, 757 and 767 commercial jets manufactured between April, 1986, and January, 1988.
>
> Engineers for the Seattle aerospace giant tested a sample of the bearings and found defects that could cause them to break.
>
> Boeing thought it had bought a brand-name bearing manufactured by Torrington Co., a Connecticut-based ball bearings manufacturer. Etchings on the bearings, which were sold by Alliance Bearing Industries of Van Nuys, said they were made by a Torrington division. But in fact, the bearings were manufactured by IJK, a Japanese company."
>
> Now, that did happen 35 years ago. But today, you and me would fight to our last breath to have a Japanese company make our bearings.
>

It's not 'made in Japan' or even 'made by IJK'. It's off
spec and, as tested, unsuitable for aircraft application, Mr
Slocumb could probably elaborate.

There was also a scandal in the 1990s over counterfeit
aircraft spec _and_ MIL spec jet engine mounting bolts
delivered into the USAF system. It's tempting to sell
something which 'looks a lot like' a $150 bolt at large
margin but an actual spec bolt is different material, thread
quality, heat treatment and has been individually
magnafluxed or XRayed. Counterfeits in aircraft can kill
people which is why it's such a big deal.

It's also newsy this year that counterfeit prescription drug
pills are being sold containing fatal doses of fentanyl. Ouch.

https://www.kxan.com/news/crime/my-son-did-not-want-to-die-how-and-why-fentanyl-is-ending-up-in-pills/

https://abcnews.go.com/international/counterfeit-prescription-pills-made-fentanyl-killing-americans-dea/story?id=66740190

Your fake Rolex or Bora wheel is not likely to tempt death.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Sun, 22 May 2022 19:39:07 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 5/22/2022 5:31 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
>> On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 10:51:35 AM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 5/21/2022 6:44 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 2:20:09 PM UTC-5, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 12:16:35 PM UTC-7, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 9:13:44 PM UTC+2, sms wrote:
>>>>>>> On 5/21/2022 2:12 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:09:47 PM UTC+2, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 10:54:39 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thanks Andrew. It turns out to be a Torx when observed under a bright light.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There you go, just look.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Lou
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The wheels I have were made in China but they HAVE to be the same company that manufactures the Shimano Dura Ace C50 wheels.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> IIRC Dura Ace wheels are made in Malaysia.
>>>>>>> In any case, the factory is immaterial. I've been to contract
>>>>>>> manufacturers all over the world. For one customer they can be building
>>>>>>> a high-quality product, for another customer they can be building a
>>>>>>> product with parts from all over the world that no one else wants.
>>>>>> I don't think Shimano outsource their wheels. These are Shimano factory, with local assembly people but Japanese management for their DA line.
>>>>> You're probably right but the wheels I obtained look exactly the same and have the same weight. So if they aren't Shimano they are nearly a perfect copy.
>>>>
>>>> Tommy, that is what counterfeiters, fake companies, rip off artists, do. They make copies that are difficult to tell from the original. Unless you know what you are looking for. And notice the wrong things being used. Or things done in the original way. I am sure your wheels are cosmetically the same as genuine Shimano wheels. The fakers can get glossy topcoats that look just as glossy as Shimano wheels. And they have their carbon fibers woven in the same texture as Shimano. And use similar looking spokes. But the spoke metal is not the same quality as Shimano. And the carbon is not the same quality as Shimano. Even though it looks the same from outside. And the final assemblers do not tighten everything as uniformly and tightly as Shimano does. You bought fake counterfeit wheels that you are trying to pretend or sell to others as genuine Shimano wheels.
>>>>
>>> Not only bicycle wheels. And not a recent phenomenon at all:
>>>
>>> https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1989-01-27-mn-1479-story.html
>>> --
>>> Andrew Muzi
>>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
>>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>>
>> Andy, a quote from your article:
>>
>> "For example, the Boeing Co. discovered early last year that it had installed more than 2,000 allegedly counterfeit ball bearings in its 737, 747, 757 and 767 commercial jets manufactured between April, 1986, and January, 1988.
>>
>> Engineers for the Seattle aerospace giant tested a sample of the bearings and found defects that could cause them to break.
>>
>> Boeing thought it had bought a brand-name bearing manufactured by Torrington Co., a Connecticut-based ball bearings manufacturer. Etchings on the bearings, which were sold by Alliance Bearing Industries of Van Nuys, said they were made by a Torrington division. But in fact, the bearings were manufactured by IJK, a Japanese company."
>>
>> Now, that did happen 35 years ago. But today, you and me would fight to our last breath to have a Japanese company make our bearings.
>>
>
>It's not 'made in Japan' or even 'made by IJK'. It's off
>spec and, as tested, unsuitable for aircraft application, Mr
>Slocumb could probably elaborate.
>
>There was also a scandal in the 1990s over counterfeit
>aircraft spec _and_ MIL spec jet engine mounting bolts
>delivered into the USAF system. It's tempting to sell
>something which 'looks a lot like' a $150 bolt at large
>margin but an actual spec bolt is different material, thread
>quality, heat treatment and has been individually
>magnafluxed or XRayed. Counterfeits in aircraft can kill
>people which is why it's such a big deal.
>
>It's also newsy this year that counterfeit prescription drug
>pills are being sold containing fatal doses of fentanyl. Ouch.
>
>https://www.kxan.com/news/crime/my-son-did-not-want-to-die-how-and-why-fentanyl-is-ending-up-in-pills/
>
>https://abcnews.go.com/international/counterfeit-prescription-pills-made-fentanyl-killing-americans-dea/story?id=66740190
>
>Your fake Rolex or Bora wheel is not likely to tempt death.

My uncle was chief electrician in a small, but very specialized,
bearing factory and he used to tell about the company making bearing
for the space shuttle. The company that actually made the shuttle had
an inspector at the plant and inspected every single bearing before it
was accepted and paid for.
Ford Motor Car company had a system where they would order, one lot of
100 gazillion bearings and include in the contact that "if one bearing
should fail the entire order will be rejected".
I worked with an engineer who's civilian job had been in quality
control for (I think) a ship building yard. His job was to inspect and
test, and certify, that every piece of material, fastener, etc., that
was to be used in building for the Navy met specifications.

I could go on and on but basically every company I worked with that
wanted quality paid for it by employing qualified people to check that
the work was "up to standards". I even met two "Paint Engineers" that
among other things measured each coat of paint applied to an off shore
platform to ensure it was the specified thickness.
--
Cheers,

John B.