On Sat, 21 May 2022 07:29:56 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:40:44 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 5/20/2022 8:55 PM, John B. wrote:
>> > On Fri, 20 May 2022 17:43:58 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> >
>> >> On 5/20/2022 4:59 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> >>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 12:12:10 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>> >>>> On 5/20/2022 10:36 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>> >>>>> "funkma...@hotmail.com" <funkma...@hotmail.com> writes:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>>> On 5/18/2022 11:50 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> I remember Kamala Harris during the vice presidential debates saying
>> >>>>>>>> that she would be very reluctant to take a "Trump vaccine", which was
>> >>>>>>>> being developed in an awful hurry without adequate safeguards.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> What she _actually_ said during the debate was, “If the public health
>> >>>>>> professionals, if Dr. Fauci, if the doctors tell us that we should
>> >>>>>> take it, I’ll be the first in line to take it. Absolutely. But if
>> >>>>>> Donald Trump tells us that we should take it, I’m not taking it.â€
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> I looked at the transcript, and it is indeed not exactly as remembered.
>> >>>>> On the other hand, had Trump won, he certainly would have told her and
>> >>>>> the rest of us to "take it".
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> She had
>> >>>>>>>> a point there, but somehow after the vaccines rolled out right *after*
>> >>>>>>>> the election, they became "Biden vaccines",
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> I must have missed the press releases naming the vaccines "trump" and
>> >>>>>> "biden". Would you have a link to a credible news source that notes
>> >>>>>> those terms specifically?
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Those are my terms. I think they fit.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> You might enjoy this editorial from the NY Times, Sept 2020:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/02/opinion/coronavirus-vaccine-trump.html
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> It discusses the Gerald Ford vaccine, for swine flu, that was withdrawn
>> >>>>> after causing a few cases of Guillain-Barre syndrome, and compares it to
>> >>>>> Trump's operation warp speed. They make some good points, but after the
>> >>>>> election nothing like this was visible in the mainstream press.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> @WhiteHouse tweeted on 12 May 2022, 2:45 PM:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> When President Biden took office, millions were unemployed and there was
>> >>>>> no vaccine available.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Sure sounds like they're trying to make it the Biden vaccine to me.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> and every Democrat jumped on
>> >>>>>>>> the bandwagon to not only take the experimental vaccine, but to try to
>> >>>>>>>> force everyone everywhere to take it.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Hyperbole won't do you any favors. I was extremely hesitant. I waited
>> >>>>>> until july.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> You waited longer than I did. I don't think I would do it again, although
>> >>>>> nothing unusually bad has happened to me. My tinnitus is a lot worse,
>> >>>>> but it's hard to say if that's vaccine related or not. I have not and
>> >>>>> will not take a booster.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> The complete revision of ideas about respiratory pandemic handling happened
>> >>>>>>>> during the *last two years*. That was not due to an increase in
>> >>>>>>>> knowledge or wisdom.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> that's a completely ridiculous assertion. The Obama administration
>> >>>>>> implemented policies and created positions to manage pandemics, even
>> >>>>>> going so far as to embed a CDC advisor called "resident adviser to the
>> >>>>>> U.S. Field Epidemiology Training Program in China" in the Chinese
>> >>>>>> CDC. As soon as trump took office he went to work dismantling Obamas
>> >>>>>> pandemic response team and recalled the CDC advisor. If anything, the
>> >>>>>> trump administration dumbed down and ignored what had been learned
>> >>>>>> since the H1N1 outbreak in 2009.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> https://www.statnews.com/2020/05/17/the-art-of-the-pandemic-how-donald-trump-walked-the-u-s-into-the-covid-19-era/
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> 2 years is an overstatement, reflecting only the facts on the ground.
>> >>>>> The actual plans go back to Bush the younger's admininistration. 2009
>> >>>>> saw an abortive attempt to put the new plans into practice, but it just
>> >>>>> wasn't scary enough.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> I recommend this article for some history on pandemic planning and how
>> >>>>> we got here:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> https://www.aier.org/article/the-2006-origins-of-the-lockdown-idea/
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Particularly the linked paper by D A Henderson, the guy most responsible
>> >>>>> for eradicating smallpox:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.552.1109&rep=rep1&type=pdf
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> I know, Frank will say he's a winger. Whatever.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> For those of you who have read all the way here, a lagniappe, the Amish
>> >>>>> approach to covid:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1DgWYdukZU
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> The Amish make the Swedes look like a nation of Chicken Littles, but
>> >>>>> they don't seem to have any regrets.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>> Much is unknown and given the political spin on statistical
>> >>>> gathering and analysis (in various countries) probably
>> >>>> unknowable now.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I see that Portugal has among the highest rates of mRNA shots:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> https://www.statista.com/statistics/1196071/covid-19-vaccination-rate-in-europe-by-country/
>> >>>>
>> >>>> and also among the highest rate of reinfections. hmmm.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> https://ourworldindata.org/covid-cases
>> >>
>> >>>
>> >>> Yes, reinfections. But getting reinfected is not that bad. You stay home from work one day and feel tired for awhile. Then you are good to go again. With no hospital stay in the ICU and no breathing tube and no death. So minimal to no harm being reinfected. Not many people have said the vaccine will prevent ALL infections. The vaccine just almost minimizes death and makes infections somewhat immaterial. Kind of like a pitcher and batter. He is throwing a fastball at 90 mph. It can hit you in the thigh, and leave a bruise. Or it can hit you in the head and leave you brain damaged. Seems to me getting the vaccine and getting hit in the thigh is better than not getting the vaccine and getting hit in the head. And yes the pitch/virus does not hit everyone. Sometimes the pitcher throws and you dive on the ground and the ball/virus goes over your head and misses you.
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> Then again, in direct conflict with the modern meaning of
>> >> the term 'vaccine' until two years ago, the mRNA shot
>> >> doesn't prevent reinfection or much more significantly,
>> >> doesn't keep that person from spreading it to others.
>> >>
>> >> I agree that lower death rates for second/ third/ fourth
>> >> infections is a good thing. Then again it's 'lower' not
>> >> zero. Continued contraction and continuing contagion are
>> >> unhelpful.
>> >>
>> >> I have to once more toss in the shameful history of AIDS and
>> >> CDC under Drs Gallo and Fauci. Great resources in money,
>> >> time and effort were pissed away on vaccine research for 35
>> >> years or so with no result. Early advocates of traditional
>> >> medical method- develop/discover therapeutics to prevent
>> >> death and improve health of the infected- were shouted down,
>> >> hounded, belittled. Yet here we are today where those evil
>> >> pharmaceutical organizations supply many and various
>> >> effective therapies such that even the poor in undeveloped
>> >> countries live out their lives for pennies per week of
>> >> treatment. Sound familiar? It's the same playbook and
>> >> written by at least some of the same people.
>> >
>> > BUT... what is the alternate? Just ignore it and hope it goes away?
>> >
>> > Ignoring the Covid and looking at HIV only, Thailand had a HIV rate of
>> > over 2% among pregnant women and over 4% among Thai
>> > military recruits. Without the use of a vaccine the rates have been
>> > reduced to 0.6% in pregnant women and military recruits. Largely
>> > through education and protective "devices".
>> >
>> > Yet when, in the U.S., Medics suggest the use of proactive devices,
>> > like masks, for the Covid, people are leaping up and down, waving
>> > their arms and shouting, "NO", "NO", "NO".
>> >
>> > And yet, of the larger countries, say 250 million or larger population
>> > the U.S. is leading the pack in total cases and total deaths.
>> >
>> > As for calculating normal deaths and excess deaths and so on?
>> >
>> > Well, during the 20 years of the Vietnam war where the total combat
>> > deaths were a paltry 47,434 compared with the over today's 1 million
>> > Covid deaths, nobody was shouting, "OH! Never mind it is only a few if
>> > you calculate the usual/normal/whatever death rates. No, you were
>> > running for the border in terror.
>> >
>> The numbers of people who emigrated to avoid the draft were
>> much smaller than the mythic version.
>
>Your chances of being drafted were pretty small and then the chances of being sent to Vietnam were also small. If you wanted to avoid that all you had to do was join the Navy for 4 years.
>
>But John can look it up on Google and disagree with that altogether. Just like his claim that HE was in Vietnam when he worked on an obsolete bomber that was never used in the war at all. He has reached the level of a pitiful idiot living in a foreign country saying anything that puts himself in a good light.

On Sat, 21 May 2022 11:33:45 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 8:40:47 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 5/20/2022 11:14 PM, John B. wrote:
>> > On Fri, 20 May 2022 21:40:38 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> >
>> >> On 5/20/2022 8:55 PM, John B. wrote:
>> >>> On Fri, 20 May 2022 17:43:58 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> On 5/20/2022 4:59 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> >>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 12:12:10 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>> >>>>>> On 5/20/2022 10:36 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>> >>>>>>> "funkma...@hotmail.com" <funkma...@hotmail.com> writes:
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> On 5/18/2022 11:50 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> I remember Kamala Harris during the vice presidential debates saying
>> >>>>>>>>>> that she would be very reluctant to take a "Trump vaccine", which was
>> >>>>>>>>>> being developed in an awful hurry without adequate safeguards.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> What she _actually_ said during the debate was, “If the public health
>> >>>>>>>> professionals, if Dr. Fauci, if the doctors tell us that we should
>> >>>>>>>> take it, I’ll be the first in line to take it. Absolutely. But if
>> >>>>>>>> Donald Trump tells us that we should take it, I’m not taking it.â€
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> I looked at the transcript, and it is indeed not exactly as remembered.
>> >>>>>>> On the other hand, had Trump won, he certainly would have told her and
>> >>>>>>> the rest of us to "take it".
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> She had
>> >>>>>>>>>> a point there, but somehow after the vaccines rolled out right *after*
>> >>>>>>>>>> the election, they became "Biden vaccines",
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> I must have missed the press releases naming the vaccines "trump" and
>> >>>>>>>> "biden". Would you have a link to a credible news source that notes
>> >>>>>>>> those terms specifically?
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Those are my terms. I think they fit.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> You might enjoy this editorial from the NY Times, Sept 2020:
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/02/opinion/coronavirus-vaccine-trump.html
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> It discusses the Gerald Ford vaccine, for swine flu, that was withdrawn
>> >>>>>>> after causing a few cases of Guillain-Barre syndrome, and compares it to
>> >>>>>>> Trump's operation warp speed. They make some good points, but after the
>> >>>>>>> election nothing like this was visible in the mainstream press.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> @WhiteHouse tweeted on 12 May 2022, 2:45 PM:
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> When President Biden took office, millions were unemployed and there was
>> >>>>>>> no vaccine available.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Sure sounds like they're trying to make it the Biden vaccine to me.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> and every Democrat jumped on
>> >>>>>>>>>> the bandwagon to not only take the experimental vaccine, but to try to
>> >>>>>>>>>> force everyone everywhere to take it.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> Hyperbole won't do you any favors. I was extremely hesitant. I waited
>> >>>>>>>> until july.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> You waited longer than I did. I don't think I would do it again, although
>> >>>>>>> nothing unusually bad has happened to me. My tinnitus is a lot worse,
>> >>>>>>> but it's hard to say if that's vaccine related or not. I have not and
>> >>>>>>> will not take a booster.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> The complete revision of ideas about respiratory pandemic handling happened
>> >>>>>>>>>> during the *last two years*. That was not due to an increase in
>> >>>>>>>>>> knowledge or wisdom.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> that's a completely ridiculous assertion. The Obama administration
>> >>>>>>>> implemented policies and created positions to manage pandemics, even
>> >>>>>>>> going so far as to embed a CDC advisor called "resident adviser to the
>> >>>>>>>> U.S. Field Epidemiology Training Program in China" in the Chinese
>> >>>>>>>> CDC. As soon as trump took office he went to work dismantling Obamas
>> >>>>>>>> pandemic response team and recalled the CDC advisor. If anything, the
>> >>>>>>>> trump administration dumbed down and ignored what had been learned
>> >>>>>>>> since the H1N1 outbreak in 2009.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> https://www.statnews.com/2020/05/17/the-art-of-the-pandemic-how-donald-trump-walked-the-u-s-into-the-covid-19-era/
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> 2 years is an overstatement, reflecting only the facts on the ground.
>> >>>>>>> The actual plans go back to Bush the younger's admininistration. 2009
>> >>>>>>> saw an abortive attempt to put the new plans into practice, but it just
>> >>>>>>> wasn't scary enough.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> I recommend this article for some history on pandemic planning and how
>> >>>>>>> we got here:
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> https://www.aier.org/article/the-2006-origins-of-the-lockdown-idea/
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Particularly the linked paper by D A Henderson, the guy most responsible
>> >>>>>>> for eradicating smallpox:
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.552.1109&rep=rep1&type=pdf
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> I know, Frank will say he's a winger. Whatever.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> For those of you who have read all the way here, a lagniappe, the Amish
>> >>>>>>> approach to covid:
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1DgWYdukZU
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> The Amish make the Swedes look like a nation of Chicken Littles, but
>> >>>>>>> they don't seem to have any regrets.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Much is unknown and given the political spin on statistical
>> >>>>>> gathering and analysis (in various countries) probably
>> >>>>>> unknowable now.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> I see that Portugal has among the highest rates of mRNA shots:
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> https://www.statista.com/statistics/1196071/covid-19-vaccination-rate-in-europe-by-country/
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> and also among the highest rate of reinfections. hmmm.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> https://ourworldindata.org/covid-cases
>> >>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Yes, reinfections. But getting reinfected is not that bad. You stay home from work one day and feel tired for awhile. Then you are good to go again. With no hospital stay in the ICU and no breathing tube and no death. So minimal to no harm being reinfected. Not many people have said the vaccine will prevent ALL infections. The vaccine just almost minimizes death and makes infections somewhat immaterial. Kind of like a pitcher and batter. He is throwing a fastball at 90 mph. It can hit you in the thigh, and leave a bruise. Or it can hit you in the head and leave you brain damaged. Seems to me getting the vaccine and getting hit in the thigh is better than not getting the vaccine and getting hit in the head. And yes the pitch/virus does not hit everyone. Sometimes the pitcher throws and you dive on the ground and the ball/virus goes over your head and misses you.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Then again, in direct conflict with the modern meaning of
>> >>>> the term 'vaccine' until two years ago, the mRNA shot
>> >>>> doesn't prevent reinfection or much more significantly,
>> >>>> doesn't keep that person from spreading it to others.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I agree that lower death rates for second/ third/ fourth
>> >>>> infections is a good thing. Then again it's 'lower' not
>> >>>> zero. Continued contraction and continuing contagion are
>> >>>> unhelpful.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I have to once more toss in the shameful history of AIDS and
>> >>>> CDC under Drs Gallo and Fauci. Great resources in money,
>> >>>> time and effort were pissed away on vaccine research for 35
>> >>>> years or so with no result. Early advocates of traditional
>> >>>> medical method- develop/discover therapeutics to prevent
>> >>>> death and improve health of the infected- were shouted down,
>> >>>> hounded, belittled. Yet here we are today where those evil
>> >>>> pharmaceutical organizations supply many and various
>> >>>> effective therapies such that even the poor in undeveloped
>> >>>> countries live out their lives for pennies per week of
>> >>>> treatment. Sound familiar? It's the same playbook and
>> >>>> written by at least some of the same people.
>> >>>
>> >>> BUT... what is the alternate? Just ignore it and hope it goes away?
>> >>>
>> >>> Ignoring the Covid and looking at HIV only, Thailand had a HIV rate of
>> >>> over 2% among pregnant women and over 4% among Thai
>> >>> military recruits. Without the use of a vaccine the rates have been
>> >>> reduced to 0.6% in pregnant women and military recruits. Largely
>> >>> through education and protective "devices".
>> >>>
>> >>> Yet when, in the U.S., Medics suggest the use of proactive devices,
>> >>> like masks, for the Covid, people are leaping up and down, waving
>> >>> their arms and shouting, "NO", "NO", "NO".
>> >>>
>> >>> And yet, of the larger countries, say 250 million or larger population
>> >>> the U.S. is leading the pack in total cases and total deaths.
>> >>>
>> >>> As for calculating normal deaths and excess deaths and so on?
>> >>>
>> >>> Well, during the 20 years of the Vietnam war where the total combat
>> >>> deaths were a paltry 47,434 compared with the over today's 1 million
>> >>> Covid deaths, nobody was shouting, "OH! Never mind it is only a few if
>> >>> you calculate the usual/normal/whatever death rates. No, you were
>> >>> running for the border in terror.
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> The numbers of people who emigrated to avoid the draft were
>> >> much smaller than the mythic version.
>> >
>> > Yes, I'm sure that you are correct. I am voicing what the professional
>> > military believed, or was told. Stories of the "cowards" streaming
>> > across the border were printed in the Air Force Times (the Air Force
>> > "in service newspaper").
>> >
>> > By the way, from all I read after it was all over they didn't
>> > Immigrate, they simply crossed the border and lived there. Technically
>> > as illegal immigrants.
>> >
>> > But you ignore my point, while people stand around yammering about
>> > excess deaths and old folk dying in an attempt to somehow de-demonize
>> > the Coved, this isn't done in wartime. Nope we build monuments to
>> > those who died in"the war". But to date, from the records I see, that
>> > in all the wars, invasions, military intrusions, etc., the U.S. has
>> > engaged in from 1775 to 2019 deaths in combat amounted to about
>> > 666,441. While Covid deaths, from 2020 to 2022 amounted to 1,028,741.
>> >
>> > So, one might (with out rationalizing) say that the Covid is/was/may
>> > be a greater killer by a factor of 1.5 then all the wars the U.S. has
>> > fought. When will we be building a monument?
>> >
>> Monuments come after we defeat china. This virus is merely a
>> first engagement.
>
>There is really something else going on - the Internet has ceased to be a place of public discourse and factual evidence and instead something containing so many purposeful lies that it is effectively useless. And people like John believes anything and everything he agrees with true or not. Frank doesn't even CARE if it is right or not if he can use it as a reference. Russell and Flunky might be forgiven since neither of these has the sense God gave a goat. Scharf is nothing more than a cheap political hack who will say ANYTHING if he believes that it would get him a vote. And even that has stopped working since the one place his lies worked immediately discovered that they had elected a fool and didn't repeat their mistake. He is lucky they didn't drag him out and lynch him but he is too stupid to understand that and continues with the same mindless crap.

On Sat, 21 May 2022 20:50:16 -0400, Radey Shouman
<shouman@comcast.net> wrote:

>sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> writes:
>
>> On 5/20/2022 6:55 PM, John B. wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>> Yet when, in the U.S., Medics suggest the use of proactive devices,
>>> like masks, for the Covid, people are leaping up and down, waving
>>> their arms and shouting, "NO", "NO", "NO".
>>
>> To be fair, you have a few, very vocal, crazies, protesting the
>> requirement to wear masks in public, and spreading fake news about
>> vaccines and the number of Covid deaths.
>>
>> Don't let the antics of a few uneducated, far-right, Trump supporters
>> make you believe that it's anything more than a tiny minority of U.S.
>> residents that are opposed to using protective devices.
>>
>> Even then, they aren't really opposed to masks, it's part of a culture
>> war: "highly-educated, highly-qualified, medical professionals are
>> explaining the benefits of masks, but we have a _right_ to be stupid
>> and believe Donald Trump and Ron DeSantis."
>
>They're not really opposed to masks? I think a lot of people really
>don't like wearing masks, particularly for eight or more hours a day.
>I'm sure people don't like having to make their two year old children
>wear masks on long airplane flights. You can argue that their
>understanding of the facts is wrong, but saying that large numbers are
>lying about perfectly reasonable preferences just seems off.

Well, if all medical studies are correct a mask, or at least the masks
suggested to be worn, don't protect YOU from others it protects OTHERS
from you. Your slobbering, spitting and spraying saliva when you talk.

So your "perfectly reasonable preferences" really boils down to a
matter of, "I don't care about anyone else. I want to do what I want
to do".

--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sat, 21 May 2022 11:14:45 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
wrote:
(chomp...)
>But you ignore my point, while people stand around yammering about
>excess deaths and old folk dying in an attempt to somehow de-demonize
>the Coved, this isn't done in wartime. Nope we build monuments to
>those who died in"the war". But to date, from the records I see, that
>in all the wars, invasions, military intrusions, etc., the U.S. has
>engaged in from 1775 to 2019 deaths in combat amounted to about
>666,441. While Covid deaths, from 2020 to 2022 amounted to 1,028,741.

I don't think the number of deaths is what inspires the building of
monuments. Smoking tobacco has probably killed more people than all
the wars. The CDC suggests 480,000 deaths per year:
<https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/fast_facts/index.htm>
Yet, I found only one monument, in Russia:
<https://vsuete.com/quit-smoking-sculptural-composition-in-khabarovsk/>

>So, one might (with out rationalizing) say that the Covid is/was/may
>be a greater killer by a factor of 1.5 then all the wars the U.S. has
>fought. When will we be building a monument?

"A World Remembers: Memorials Honor Covid's 5 Million Dead":
<https://apnews.com/article/coronavirus-pandemic-five-million-dead-memorials-acd5a25aabb50f203c8ee059803a1bec>

Online "monument":
<https://covidmemorial.online>

More:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=COVID+monuments>

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 5/21/2022 8:50 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
> sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> writes:
>
>> On 5/20/2022 6:55 PM, John B. wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>> Yet when, in the U.S., Medics suggest the use of proactive devices,
>>> like masks, for the Covid, people are leaping up and down, waving
>>> their arms and shouting, "NO", "NO", "NO".
>>
>> To be fair, you have a few, very vocal, crazies, protesting the
>> requirement to wear masks in public, and spreading fake news about
>> vaccines and the number of Covid deaths.
>>
>> Don't let the antics of a few uneducated, far-right, Trump supporters
>> make you believe that it's anything more than a tiny minority of U.S.
>> residents that are opposed to using protective devices.
>>
>> Even then, they aren't really opposed to masks, it's part of a culture
>> war: "highly-educated, highly-qualified, medical professionals are
>> explaining the benefits of masks, but we have a _right_ to be stupid
>> and believe Donald Trump and Ron DeSantis."
>
> They're not really opposed to masks? I think a lot of people really
> don't like wearing masks, particularly for eight or more hours a day.
> I'm sure people don't like having to make their two year old children
> wear masks on long airplane flights. You can argue that their
> understanding of the facts is wrong, but saying that large numbers are
> lying about perfectly reasonable preferences just seems off.

There are plenty of people opposed to masks, as in "You can't make me
wear one." That statement is not usually followed by "for eight hours"
or "this entire airline flight." They'll say that regarding a five
minute visit to a convenience store.

It's a bit like attitudes toward washing one's face. Very few people
love to do it, but few are actually opposed to it. Even most kids do it
when told to. But some whiny little kids are opposed to washing their
faces, and throw tantrums when told to do so.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 5/21/2022 10:57 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Sat, 21 May 2022 11:14:45 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> (chomp...)
>> But you ignore my point, while people stand around yammering about
>> excess deaths and old folk dying in an attempt to somehow de-demonize
>> the Coved, this isn't done in wartime. Nope we build monuments to
>> those who died in"the war". But to date, from the records I see, that
>> in all the wars, invasions, military intrusions, etc., the U.S. has
>> engaged in from 1775 to 2019 deaths in combat amounted to about
>> 666,441. While Covid deaths, from 2020 to 2022 amounted to 1,028,741.
>
> I don't think the number of deaths is what inspires the building of
> monuments. Smoking tobacco has probably killed more people than all
> the wars. The CDC suggests 480,000 deaths per year:
> <https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/fast_facts/index.htm>
> Yet, I found only one monument, in Russia:
> <https://vsuete.com/quit-smoking-sculptural-composition-in-khabarovsk/>
>
>> So, one might (with out rationalizing) say that the Covid is/was/may
>> be a greater killer by a factor of 1.5 then all the wars the U.S. has
>> fought. When will we be building a monument?
>
> "A World Remembers: Memorials Honor Covid's 5 Million Dead":
> <https://apnews.com/article/coronavirus-pandemic-five-million-dead-memorials-acd5a25aabb50f203c8ee059803a1bec>
>
> Online "monument":
> <https://covidmemorial.online>
>
> More:
> <https://www.google.com/search?q=COVID+monuments>

There are quite a few plague memorials in Europe. Some are incredibly
elaborate and artistic.

https://fogtravel.blog/plague-columnsthe-intersection-of-great-art-great-misery-and-great-piety/

In those days they weren't pouring as much money into sports stadiums,
so they could afford more public art.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 5/21/2022 5:42 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 10:40:47 AM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 5/20/2022 11:14 PM, John B. wrote:
>>> On Fri, 20 May 2022 21:40:38 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 5/20/2022 8:55 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, 20 May 2022 17:43:58 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 4:59 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 12:12:10 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 10:36 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>>>>>>>>> "funkma...@hotmail.com" <funkma...@hotmail.com> writes:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/18/2022 11:50 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I remember Kamala Harris during the vice presidential debates saying
>>>>>>>>>>>> that she would be very reluctant to take a "Trump vaccine", which was
>>>>>>>>>>>> being developed in an awful hurry without adequate safeguards.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> What she _actually_ said during the debate was, “If the public health
>>>>>>>>>> professionals, if Dr. Fauci, if the doctors tell us that we should
>>>>>>>>>> take it, I’ll be the first in line to take it. Absolutely. But if
>>>>>>>>>> Donald Trump tells us that we should take it, I’m not taking it.â€
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I looked at the transcript, and it is indeed not exactly as remembered.
>>>>>>>>> On the other hand, had Trump won, he certainly would have told her and
>>>>>>>>> the rest of us to "take it".
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> She had
>>>>>>>>>>>> a point there, but somehow after the vaccines rolled out right *after*
>>>>>>>>>>>> the election, they became "Biden vaccines",
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I must have missed the press releases naming the vaccines "trump" and
>>>>>>>>>> "biden". Would you have a link to a credible news source that notes
>>>>>>>>>> those terms specifically?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Those are my terms. I think they fit.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You might enjoy this editorial from the NY Times, Sept 2020:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/02/opinion/coronavirus-vaccine-trump.html
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It discusses the Gerald Ford vaccine, for swine flu, that was withdrawn
>>>>>>>>> after causing a few cases of Guillain-Barre syndrome, and compares it to
>>>>>>>>> Trump's operation warp speed. They make some good points, but after the
>>>>>>>>> election nothing like this was visible in the mainstream press.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> @WhiteHouse tweeted on 12 May 2022, 2:45 PM:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> When President Biden took office, millions were unemployed and there was
>>>>>>>>> no vaccine available.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Sure sounds like they're trying to make it the Biden vaccine to me.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> and every Democrat jumped on
>>>>>>>>>>>> the bandwagon to not only take the experimental vaccine, but to try to
>>>>>>>>>>>> force everyone everywhere to take it.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hyperbole won't do you any favors. I was extremely hesitant. I waited
>>>>>>>>>> until july.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You waited longer than I did. I don't think I would do it again, although
>>>>>>>>> nothing unusually bad has happened to me. My tinnitus is a lot worse,
>>>>>>>>> but it's hard to say if that's vaccine related or not. I have not and
>>>>>>>>> will not take a booster.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The complete revision of ideas about respiratory pandemic handling happened
>>>>>>>>>>>> during the *last two years*. That was not due to an increase in
>>>>>>>>>>>> knowledge or wisdom.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> that's a completely ridiculous assertion. The Obama administration
>>>>>>>>>> implemented policies and created positions to manage pandemics, even
>>>>>>>>>> going so far as to embed a CDC advisor called "resident adviser to the
>>>>>>>>>> U.S. Field Epidemiology Training Program in China" in the Chinese
>>>>>>>>>> CDC. As soon as trump took office he went to work dismantling Obamas
>>>>>>>>>> pandemic response team and recalled the CDC advisor. If anything, the
>>>>>>>>>> trump administration dumbed down and ignored what had been learned
>>>>>>>>>> since the H1N1 outbreak in 2009.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.statnews.com/2020/05/17/the-art-of-the-pandemic-how-donald-trump-walked-the-u-s-into-the-covid-19-era/
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 2 years is an overstatement, reflecting only the facts on the ground.
>>>>>>>>> The actual plans go back to Bush the younger's admininistration. 2009
>>>>>>>>> saw an abortive attempt to put the new plans into practice, but it just
>>>>>>>>> wasn't scary enough.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I recommend this article for some history on pandemic planning and how
>>>>>>>>> we got here:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://www.aier.org/article/the-2006-origins-of-the-lockdown-idea/
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Particularly the linked paper by D A Henderson, the guy most responsible
>>>>>>>>> for eradicating smallpox:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.552.1109&rep=rep1&type=pdf
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I know, Frank will say he's a winger. Whatever.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> For those of you who have read all the way here, a lagniappe, the Amish
>>>>>>>>> approach to covid:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1DgWYdukZU
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The Amish make the Swedes look like a nation of Chicken Littles, but
>>>>>>>>> they don't seem to have any regrets.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Much is unknown and given the political spin on statistical
>>>>>>>> gathering and analysis (in various countries) probably
>>>>>>>> unknowable now.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I see that Portugal has among the highest rates of mRNA shots:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://www.statista.com/statistics/1196071/covid-19-vaccination-rate-in-europe-by-country/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> and also among the highest rate of reinfections. hmmm.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://ourworldindata.org/covid-cases
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes, reinfections. But getting reinfected is not that bad. You stay home from work one day and feel tired for awhile. Then you are good to go again. With no hospital stay in the ICU and no breathing tube and no death. So minimal to no harm being reinfected. Not many people have said the vaccine will prevent ALL infections. The vaccine just almost minimizes death and makes infections somewhat immaterial. Kind of like a pitcher and batter. He is throwing a fastball at 90 mph. It can hit you in the thigh, and leave a bruise. Or it can hit you in the head and leave you brain damaged. Seems to me getting the vaccine and getting hit in the thigh is better than not getting the vaccine and getting hit in the head. And yes the pitch/virus does not hit everyone. Sometimes the pitcher throws and you dive on the ground and the ball/virus goes over your head and misses you.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Then again, in direct conflict with the modern meaning of
>>>>>> the term 'vaccine' until two years ago, the mRNA shot
>>>>>> doesn't prevent reinfection or much more significantly,
>>>>>> doesn't keep that person from spreading it to others.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I agree that lower death rates for second/ third/ fourth
>>>>>> infections is a good thing. Then again it's 'lower' not
>>>>>> zero. Continued contraction and continuing contagion are
>>>>>> unhelpful.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have to once more toss in the shameful history of AIDS and
>>>>>> CDC under Drs Gallo and Fauci. Great resources in money,
>>>>>> time and effort were pissed away on vaccine research for 35
>>>>>> years or so with no result. Early advocates of traditional
>>>>>> medical method- develop/discover therapeutics to prevent
>>>>>> death and improve health of the infected- were shouted down,
>>>>>> hounded, belittled. Yet here we are today where those evil
>>>>>> pharmaceutical organizations supply many and various
>>>>>> effective therapies such that even the poor in undeveloped
>>>>>> countries live out their lives for pennies per week of
>>>>>> treatment. Sound familiar? It's the same playbook and
>>>>>> written by at least some of the same people.
>>>>>
>>>>> BUT... what is the alternate? Just ignore it and hope it goes away?
>>>>>
>>>>> Ignoring the Covid and looking at HIV only, Thailand had a HIV rate of
>>>>> over 2% among pregnant women and over 4% among Thai
>>>>> military recruits. Without the use of a vaccine the rates have been
>>>>> reduced to 0.6% in pregnant women and military recruits. Largely
>>>>> through education and protective "devices".
>>>>>
>>>>> Yet when, in the U.S., Medics suggest the use of proactive devices,
>>>>> like masks, for the Covid, people are leaping up and down, waving
>>>>> their arms and shouting, "NO", "NO", "NO".
>>>>>
>>>>> And yet, of the larger countries, say 250 million or larger population
>>>>> the U.S. is leading the pack in total cases and total deaths.
>>>>>
>>>>> As for calculating normal deaths and excess deaths and so on?
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, during the 20 years of the Vietnam war where the total combat
>>>>> deaths were a paltry 47,434 compared with the over today's 1 million
>>>>> Covid deaths, nobody was shouting, "OH! Never mind it is only a few if
>>>>> you calculate the usual/normal/whatever death rates. No, you were
>>>>> running for the border in terror.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The numbers of people who emigrated to avoid the draft were
>>>> much smaller than the mythic version.
>>>
>>> Yes, I'm sure that you are correct. I am voicing what the professional
>>> military believed, or was told. Stories of the "cowards" streaming
>>> across the border were printed in the Air Force Times (the Air Force
>>> "in service newspaper").
>>>
>>> By the way, from all I read after it was all over they didn't
>>> Immigrate, they simply crossed the border and lived there. Technically
>>> as illegal immigrants.
>>>
>>> But you ignore my point, while people stand around yammering about
>>> excess deaths and old folk dying in an attempt to somehow de-demonize
>>> the Coved, this isn't done in wartime. Nope we build monuments to
>>> those who died in"the war". But to date, from the records I see, that
>>> in all the wars, invasions, military intrusions, etc., the U.S. has
>>> engaged in from 1775 to 2019 deaths in combat amounted to about
>>> 666,441. While Covid deaths, from 2020 to 2022 amounted to 1,028,741.
>>>
>>> So, one might (with out rationalizing) say that the Covid is/was/may
>>> be a greater killer by a factor of 1.5 then all the wars the U.S. has
>>> fought. When will we be building a monument?
>>>
>> Monuments come after we defeat china. This virus is merely a
>> first engagement.
>> --
>> Andrew Muzi
>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>
> Defeat China? I am far more concerned about stopping the deaths from Covid-19. And eliminating the economic effects Covid has caused throughout the world. I am aware Covid started in China. And spread worldwide. Was it intentional? Maybe, maybe not. I'd go for the not. The leaders in China have some competent advisors. They would tell the leaders that destroying the world's economy is bad for China. No matter how much harm it does to everyone else, China will also suffer. China is interconnected with the world economically. Very few spouses commit spousal murder by pulling the spouse into a closet and setting off a hand grenade. Its not much benefit to kill yourself.
>
> As far as first engagement. Hopefully the world has learned from Covid. And will be better prepared for the next time something similar happens. But I'm not too hopeful a large portion of the USA has learned anything at all. So we would likely have a repeat exactly as bad the next time around. As for engaging China on other fronts. Such as the militarization of the South China Sea, and human rights, and trading, those conflicts will continue. And I am hopeful a good outcome can be achieved. Good for both sides and everyone.
>
> Unlike the Republicans who assume everything is a zero sum game. If you gain, then I must lose, So that is evil. I believe we all can gain together. Likely different amounts of gain. But all pluses for everyone. No one has to lose.
>

On 5/21/2022 7:56 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Sat, 21 May 2022 10:40:42 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>> On 5/20/2022 11:14 PM, John B. wrote:
>>> On Fri, 20 May 2022 21:40:38 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 5/20/2022 8:55 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, 20 May 2022 17:43:58 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 4:59 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 12:12:10 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 10:36 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>>>>>>>>> "funkma...@hotmail.com" <funkma...@hotmail.com> writes:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/18/2022 11:50 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I remember Kamala Harris during the vice presidential debates saying
>>>>>>>>>>>> that she would be very reluctant to take a "Trump vaccine", which was
>>>>>>>>>>>> being developed in an awful hurry without adequate safeguards.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> What she _actually_ said during the debate was, “If the public health
>>>>>>>>>> professionals, if Dr. Fauci, if the doctors tell us that we should
>>>>>>>>>> take it, I’ll be the first in line to take it. Absolutely. But if
>>>>>>>>>> Donald Trump tells us that we should take it, I’m not taking it.â€
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I looked at the transcript, and it is indeed not exactly as remembered.
>>>>>>>>> On the other hand, had Trump won, he certainly would have told her and
>>>>>>>>> the rest of us to "take it".
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> She had
>>>>>>>>>>>> a point there, but somehow after the vaccines rolled out right *after*
>>>>>>>>>>>> the election, they became "Biden vaccines",
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I must have missed the press releases naming the vaccines "trump" and
>>>>>>>>>> "biden". Would you have a link to a credible news source that notes
>>>>>>>>>> those terms specifically?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Those are my terms. I think they fit.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You might enjoy this editorial from the NY Times, Sept 2020:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/02/opinion/coronavirus-vaccine-trump.html
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It discusses the Gerald Ford vaccine, for swine flu, that was withdrawn
>>>>>>>>> after causing a few cases of Guillain-Barre syndrome, and compares it to
>>>>>>>>> Trump's operation warp speed. They make some good points, but after the
>>>>>>>>> election nothing like this was visible in the mainstream press.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> @WhiteHouse tweeted on 12 May 2022, 2:45 PM:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> When President Biden took office, millions were unemployed and there was
>>>>>>>>> no vaccine available.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Sure sounds like they're trying to make it the Biden vaccine to me.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> and every Democrat jumped on
>>>>>>>>>>>> the bandwagon to not only take the experimental vaccine, but to try to
>>>>>>>>>>>> force everyone everywhere to take it.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hyperbole won't do you any favors. I was extremely hesitant. I waited
>>>>>>>>>> until july.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You waited longer than I did. I don't think I would do it again, although
>>>>>>>>> nothing unusually bad has happened to me. My tinnitus is a lot worse,
>>>>>>>>> but it's hard to say if that's vaccine related or not. I have not and
>>>>>>>>> will not take a booster.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The complete revision of ideas about respiratory pandemic handling happened
>>>>>>>>>>>> during the *last two years*. That was not due to an increase in
>>>>>>>>>>>> knowledge or wisdom.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> that's a completely ridiculous assertion. The Obama administration
>>>>>>>>>> implemented policies and created positions to manage pandemics, even
>>>>>>>>>> going so far as to embed a CDC advisor called "resident adviser to the
>>>>>>>>>> U.S. Field Epidemiology Training Program in China" in the Chinese
>>>>>>>>>> CDC. As soon as trump took office he went to work dismantling Obamas
>>>>>>>>>> pandemic response team and recalled the CDC advisor. If anything, the
>>>>>>>>>> trump administration dumbed down and ignored what had been learned
>>>>>>>>>> since the H1N1 outbreak in 2009.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.statnews.com/2020/05/17/the-art-of-the-pandemic-how-donald-trump-walked-the-u-s-into-the-covid-19-era/
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 2 years is an overstatement, reflecting only the facts on the ground.
>>>>>>>>> The actual plans go back to Bush the younger's admininistration. 2009
>>>>>>>>> saw an abortive attempt to put the new plans into practice, but it just
>>>>>>>>> wasn't scary enough.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I recommend this article for some history on pandemic planning and how
>>>>>>>>> we got here:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://www.aier.org/article/the-2006-origins-of-the-lockdown-idea/
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Particularly the linked paper by D A Henderson, the guy most responsible
>>>>>>>>> for eradicating smallpox:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.552.1109&rep=rep1&type=pdf
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I know, Frank will say he's a winger. Whatever.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> For those of you who have read all the way here, a lagniappe, the Amish
>>>>>>>>> approach to covid:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1DgWYdukZU
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The Amish make the Swedes look like a nation of Chicken Littles, but
>>>>>>>>> they don't seem to have any regrets.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Much is unknown and given the political spin on statistical
>>>>>>>> gathering and analysis (in various countries) probably
>>>>>>>> unknowable now.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I see that Portugal has among the highest rates of mRNA shots:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://www.statista.com/statistics/1196071/covid-19-vaccination-rate-in-europe-by-country/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> and also among the highest rate of reinfections. hmmm.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://ourworldindata.org/covid-cases
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes, reinfections. But getting reinfected is not that bad. You stay home from work one day and feel tired for awhile. Then you are good to go again. With no hospital stay in the ICU and no breathing tube and no death. So minimal to no harm being reinfected. Not many people have said the vaccine will prevent ALL infections. The vaccine just almost minimizes death and makes infections somewhat immaterial. Kind of like a pitcher and batter. He is throwing a fastball at 90 mph. It can hit you in the thigh, and leave a bruise. Or it can hit you in the head and leave you brain damaged. Seems to me getting the vaccine and getting hit in the thigh is better than not getting the vaccine and getting hit in the head. And yes the pitch/virus does not hit everyone. Sometimes the pitcher throws and you dive on the ground and the ball/virus goes over your head and misses you.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Then again, in direct conflict with the modern meaning of
>>>>>> the term 'vaccine' until two years ago, the mRNA shot
>>>>>> doesn't prevent reinfection or much more significantly,
>>>>>> doesn't keep that person from spreading it to others.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I agree that lower death rates for second/ third/ fourth
>>>>>> infections is a good thing. Then again it's 'lower' not
>>>>>> zero. Continued contraction and continuing contagion are
>>>>>> unhelpful.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have to once more toss in the shameful history of AIDS and
>>>>>> CDC under Drs Gallo and Fauci. Great resources in money,
>>>>>> time and effort were pissed away on vaccine research for 35
>>>>>> years or so with no result. Early advocates of traditional
>>>>>> medical method- develop/discover therapeutics to prevent
>>>>>> death and improve health of the infected- were shouted down,
>>>>>> hounded, belittled. Yet here we are today where those evil
>>>>>> pharmaceutical organizations supply many and various
>>>>>> effective therapies such that even the poor in undeveloped
>>>>>> countries live out their lives for pennies per week of
>>>>>> treatment. Sound familiar? It's the same playbook and
>>>>>> written by at least some of the same people.
>>>>>
>>>>> BUT... what is the alternate? Just ignore it and hope it goes away?
>>>>>
>>>>> Ignoring the Covid and looking at HIV only, Thailand had a HIV rate of
>>>>> over 2% among pregnant women and over 4% among Thai
>>>>> military recruits. Without the use of a vaccine the rates have been
>>>>> reduced to 0.6% in pregnant women and military recruits. Largely
>>>>> through education and protective "devices".
>>>>>
>>>>> Yet when, in the U.S., Medics suggest the use of proactive devices,
>>>>> like masks, for the Covid, people are leaping up and down, waving
>>>>> their arms and shouting, "NO", "NO", "NO".
>>>>>
>>>>> And yet, of the larger countries, say 250 million or larger population
>>>>> the U.S. is leading the pack in total cases and total deaths.
>>>>>
>>>>> As for calculating normal deaths and excess deaths and so on?
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, during the 20 years of the Vietnam war where the total combat
>>>>> deaths were a paltry 47,434 compared with the over today's 1 million
>>>>> Covid deaths, nobody was shouting, "OH! Never mind it is only a few if
>>>>> you calculate the usual/normal/whatever death rates. No, you were
>>>>> running for the border in terror.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The numbers of people who emigrated to avoid the draft were
>>>> much smaller than the mythic version.
>>>
>>> Yes, I'm sure that you are correct. I am voicing what the professional
>>> military believed, or was told. Stories of the "cowards" streaming
>>> across the border were printed in the Air Force Times (the Air Force
>>> "in service newspaper").
>>>
>>> By the way, from all I read after it was all over they didn't
>>> Immigrate, they simply crossed the border and lived there. Technically
>>> as illegal immigrants.
>>>
>>> But you ignore my point, while people stand around yammering about
>>> excess deaths and old folk dying in an attempt to somehow de-demonize
>>> the Coved, this isn't done in wartime. Nope we build monuments to
>>> those who died in"the war". But to date, from the records I see, that
>>> in all the wars, invasions, military intrusions, etc., the U.S. has
>>> engaged in from 1775 to 2019 deaths in combat amounted to about
>>> 666,441. While Covid deaths, from 2020 to 2022 amounted to 1,028,741.
>>>
>>> So, one might (with out rationalizing) say that the Covid is/was/may
>>> be a greater killer by a factor of 1.5 then all the wars the U.S. has
>>> fought. When will we be building a monument?
>>>
>>
>> Monuments come after we defeat china. This virus is merely a
>> first engagement.
>
> But, but, but! If you defeat China then your business will, likely,
> fail as I read that something like 86% of bicycles sold in the U.S.
> are made in China Can you survive on 14% of your current sales (:-?)
>

On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 5:50:19 PM UTC-7, Radey Shouman wrote:
> sms <scharf...@geemail.com> writes:
>
> > On 5/20/2022 6:55 PM, John B. wrote:
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> >> Yet when, in the U.S., Medics suggest the use of proactive devices,
> >> like masks, for the Covid, people are leaping up and down, waving
> >> their arms and shouting, "NO", "NO", "NO".
> >
> > To be fair, you have a few, very vocal, crazies, protesting the
> > requirement to wear masks in public, and spreading fake news about
> > vaccines and the number of Covid deaths.
> >
> > Don't let the antics of a few uneducated, far-right, Trump supporters
> > make you believe that it's anything more than a tiny minority of U.S.
> > residents that are opposed to using protective devices.
> >
> > Even then, they aren't really opposed to masks, it's part of a culture
> > war: "highly-educated, highly-qualified, medical professionals are
> > explaining the benefits of masks, but we have a _right_ to be stupid
> > and believe Donald Trump and Ron DeSantis."
> They're not really opposed to masks? I think a lot of people really
> don't like wearing masks, particularly for eight or more hours a day.
> I'm sure people don't like having to make their two year old children
> wear masks on long airplane flights. You can argue that their
> understanding of the facts is wrong, but saying that large numbers are
> lying about perfectly reasonable preferences just seems off.

On a really smart day Scharf has the IQ of a garden snail. In many places in the world they don't even use masks in the operating room because studies show that they don't even prevent bacterial diseases let alone viral diseases. Here is what a surgeon friend referred me to. He works with Doctors Without Borders and they do not use masks in places like Africa. https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/5/19-0994_article

On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 8:55:09 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 5/21/2022 7:56 PM, John B. wrote:
> > On Sat, 21 May 2022 10:40:42 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >
> >> On 5/20/2022 11:14 PM, John B. wrote:
> >>> On Fri, 20 May 2022 21:40:38 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On 5/20/2022 8:55 PM, John B. wrote:
> >>>>> On Fri, 20 May 2022 17:43:58 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On 5/20/2022 4:59 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 12:12:10 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 10:36 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> "funkma...@hotmail.com" <funkma...@hotmail.com> writes:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> On 5/18/2022 11:50 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> I remember Kamala Harris during the vice presidential debates saying
> >>>>>>>>>>>> that she would be very reluctant to take a "Trump vaccine", which was
> >>>>>>>>>>>> being developed in an awful hurry without adequate safeguards.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> What she _actually_ said during the debate was, “If the public health
> >>>>>>>>>> professionals, if Dr. Fauci, if the doctors tell us that we should
> >>>>>>>>>> take it, I’ll be the first in line to take it. Absolutely. But if
> >>>>>>>>>> Donald Trump tells us that we should take it, I’m not taking it.â€
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> I looked at the transcript, and it is indeed not exactly as remembered.
> >>>>>>>>> On the other hand, had Trump won, he certainly would have told her and
> >>>>>>>>> the rest of us to "take it".
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> She had
> >>>>>>>>>>>> a point there, but somehow after the vaccines rolled out right *after*
> >>>>>>>>>>>> the election, they became "Biden vaccines",
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> I must have missed the press releases naming the vaccines "trump" and
> >>>>>>>>>> "biden". Would you have a link to a credible news source that notes
> >>>>>>>>>> those terms specifically?
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Those are my terms. I think they fit.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> You might enjoy this editorial from the NY Times, Sept 2020:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/02/opinion/coronavirus-vaccine-trump.html
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> It discusses the Gerald Ford vaccine, for swine flu, that was withdrawn
> >>>>>>>>> after causing a few cases of Guillain-Barre syndrome, and compares it to
> >>>>>>>>> Trump's operation warp speed. They make some good points, but after the
> >>>>>>>>> election nothing like this was visible in the mainstream press.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> @WhiteHouse tweeted on 12 May 2022, 2:45 PM:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> When President Biden took office, millions were unemployed and there was
> >>>>>>>>> no vaccine available.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Sure sounds like they're trying to make it the Biden vaccine to me.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> and every Democrat jumped on
> >>>>>>>>>>>> the bandwagon to not only take the experimental vaccine, but to try to
> >>>>>>>>>>>> force everyone everywhere to take it.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Hyperbole won't do you any favors. I was extremely hesitant. I waited
> >>>>>>>>>> until july.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> You waited longer than I did. I don't think I would do it again, although
> >>>>>>>>> nothing unusually bad has happened to me. My tinnitus is a lot worse,
> >>>>>>>>> but it's hard to say if that's vaccine related or not. I have not and
> >>>>>>>>> will not take a booster.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> The complete revision of ideas about respiratory pandemic handling happened
> >>>>>>>>>>>> during the *last two years*. That was not due to an increase in
> >>>>>>>>>>>> knowledge or wisdom.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> that's a completely ridiculous assertion. The Obama administration
> >>>>>>>>>> implemented policies and created positions to manage pandemics, even
> >>>>>>>>>> going so far as to embed a CDC advisor called "resident adviser to the
> >>>>>>>>>> U.S. Field Epidemiology Training Program in China" in the Chinese
> >>>>>>>>>> CDC. As soon as trump took office he went to work dismantling Obamas
> >>>>>>>>>> pandemic response team and recalled the CDC advisor. If anything, the
> >>>>>>>>>> trump administration dumbed down and ignored what had been learned
> >>>>>>>>>> since the H1N1 outbreak in 2009.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> https://www.statnews.com/2020/05/17/the-art-of-the-pandemic-how-donald-trump-walked-the-u-s-into-the-covid-19-era/
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> 2 years is an overstatement, reflecting only the facts on the ground.
> >>>>>>>>> The actual plans go back to Bush the younger's admininistration.. 2009
> >>>>>>>>> saw an abortive attempt to put the new plans into practice, but it just
> >>>>>>>>> wasn't scary enough.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> I recommend this article for some history on pandemic planning and how
> >>>>>>>>> we got here:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> https://www.aier.org/article/the-2006-origins-of-the-lockdown-idea/
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Particularly the linked paper by D A Henderson, the guy most responsible
> >>>>>>>>> for eradicating smallpox:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.552.1109&rep=rep1&type=pdf
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> I know, Frank will say he's a winger. Whatever.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> For those of you who have read all the way here, a lagniappe, the Amish
> >>>>>>>>> approach to covid:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1DgWYdukZU
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> The Amish make the Swedes look like a nation of Chicken Littles, but
> >>>>>>>>> they don't seem to have any regrets.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Much is unknown and given the political spin on statistical
> >>>>>>>> gathering and analysis (in various countries) probably
> >>>>>>>> unknowable now.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I see that Portugal has among the highest rates of mRNA shots:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> https://www.statista.com/statistics/1196071/covid-19-vaccination-rate-in-europe-by-country/
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> and also among the highest rate of reinfections. hmmm.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> https://ourworldindata.org/covid-cases
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Yes, reinfections. But getting reinfected is not that bad. You stay home from work one day and feel tired for awhile. Then you are good to go again. With no hospital stay in the ICU and no breathing tube and no death. So minimal to no harm being reinfected. Not many people have said the vaccine will prevent ALL infections. The vaccine just almost minimizes death and makes infections somewhat immaterial. Kind of like a pitcher and batter.. He is throwing a fastball at 90 mph. It can hit you in the thigh, and leave a bruise. Or it can hit you in the head and leave you brain damaged. Seems to me getting the vaccine and getting hit in the thigh is better than not getting the vaccine and getting hit in the head. And yes the pitch/virus does not hit everyone. Sometimes the pitcher throws and you dive on the ground and the ball/virus goes over your head and misses you.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Then again, in direct conflict with the modern meaning of
> >>>>>> the term 'vaccine' until two years ago, the mRNA shot
> >>>>>> doesn't prevent reinfection or much more significantly,
> >>>>>> doesn't keep that person from spreading it to others.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I agree that lower death rates for second/ third/ fourth
> >>>>>> infections is a good thing. Then again it's 'lower' not
> >>>>>> zero. Continued contraction and continuing contagion are
> >>>>>> unhelpful.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I have to once more toss in the shameful history of AIDS and
> >>>>>> CDC under Drs Gallo and Fauci. Great resources in money,
> >>>>>> time and effort were pissed away on vaccine research for 35
> >>>>>> years or so with no result. Early advocates of traditional
> >>>>>> medical method- develop/discover therapeutics to prevent
> >>>>>> death and improve health of the infected- were shouted down,
> >>>>>> hounded, belittled. Yet here we are today where those evil
> >>>>>> pharmaceutical organizations supply many and various
> >>>>>> effective therapies such that even the poor in undeveloped
> >>>>>> countries live out their lives for pennies per week of
> >>>>>> treatment. Sound familiar? It's the same playbook and
> >>>>>> written by at least some of the same people.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> BUT... what is the alternate? Just ignore it and hope it goes away?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Ignoring the Covid and looking at HIV only, Thailand had a HIV rate of
> >>>>> over 2% among pregnant women and over 4% among Thai
> >>>>> military recruits. Without the use of a vaccine the rates have been
> >>>>> reduced to 0.6% in pregnant women and military recruits. Largely
> >>>>> through education and protective "devices".
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Yet when, in the U.S., Medics suggest the use of proactive devices,
> >>>>> like masks, for the Covid, people are leaping up and down, waving
> >>>>> their arms and shouting, "NO", "NO", "NO".
> >>>>>
> >>>>> And yet, of the larger countries, say 250 million or larger population
> >>>>> the U.S. is leading the pack in total cases and total deaths.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> As for calculating normal deaths and excess deaths and so on?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Well, during the 20 years of the Vietnam war where the total combat
> >>>>> deaths were a paltry 47,434 compared with the over today's 1 million
> >>>>> Covid deaths, nobody was shouting, "OH! Never mind it is only a few if
> >>>>> you calculate the usual/normal/whatever death rates. No, you were
> >>>>> running for the border in terror.
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> The numbers of people who emigrated to avoid the draft were
> >>>> much smaller than the mythic version.
> >>>
> >>> Yes, I'm sure that you are correct. I am voicing what the professional
> >>> military believed, or was told. Stories of the "cowards" streaming
> >>> across the border were printed in the Air Force Times (the Air Force
> >>> "in service newspaper").
> >>>
> >>> By the way, from all I read after it was all over they didn't
> >>> Immigrate, they simply crossed the border and lived there. Technically
> >>> as illegal immigrants.
> >>>
> >>> But you ignore my point, while people stand around yammering about
> >>> excess deaths and old folk dying in an attempt to somehow de-demonize
> >>> the Coved, this isn't done in wartime. Nope we build monuments to
> >>> those who died in"the war". But to date, from the records I see, that
> >>> in all the wars, invasions, military intrusions, etc., the U.S. has
> >>> engaged in from 1775 to 2019 deaths in combat amounted to about
> >>> 666,441. While Covid deaths, from 2020 to 2022 amounted to 1,028,741.
> >>>
> >>> So, one might (with out rationalizing) say that the Covid is/was/may
> >>> be a greater killer by a factor of 1.5 then all the wars the U.S. has
> >>> fought. When will we be building a monument?
> >>>
> >>
> >> Monuments come after we defeat china. This virus is merely a
> >> first engagement.
> >
> > But, but, but! If you defeat China then your business will, likely,
> > fail as I read that something like 86% of bicycles sold in the U.S.
> > are made in China Can you survive on 14% of your current sales (:-?)
> >
> Embrace change. I recently received Bianchis from the first
> new Bianchi factory built in Italy in decades. Nice product BTW.
>
> Meanwhile the Wuhan bioweapon was a first test run, 'proof
> of concept' as it were.
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com> writes:

> On Sat, 21 May 2022 20:50:16 -0400, Radey Shouman
> <shouman@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>>sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> writes:
>>
>>> On 5/20/2022 6:55 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>
>>> <snip>
>>>
>>>> Yet when, in the U.S., Medics suggest the use of proactive devices,
>>>> like masks, for the Covid, people are leaping up and down, waving
>>>> their arms and shouting, "NO", "NO", "NO".
>>>
>>> To be fair, you have a few, very vocal, crazies, protesting the
>>> requirement to wear masks in public, and spreading fake news about
>>> vaccines and the number of Covid deaths.
>>>
>>> Don't let the antics of a few uneducated, far-right, Trump supporters
>>> make you believe that it's anything more than a tiny minority of U.S.
>>> residents that are opposed to using protective devices.
>>>
>>> Even then, they aren't really opposed to masks, it's part of a culture
>>> war: "highly-educated, highly-qualified, medical professionals are
>>> explaining the benefits of masks, but we have a _right_ to be stupid
>>> and believe Donald Trump and Ron DeSantis."
>>
>>They're not really opposed to masks? I think a lot of people really
>>don't like wearing masks, particularly for eight or more hours a day.
>>I'm sure people don't like having to make their two year old children
>>wear masks on long airplane flights. You can argue that their
>>understanding of the facts is wrong, but saying that large numbers are
>>lying about perfectly reasonable preferences just seems off.
>
> Well, if all medical studies are correct a mask, or at least the masks
> suggested to be worn, don't protect YOU from others it protects OTHERS
> from you. Your slobbering, spitting and spraying saliva when you talk.
>
> So your "perfectly reasonable preferences" really boils down to a
> matter of, "I don't care about anyone else. I want to do what I want
> to do".

I disagree with that too, but it's not what Hizzoner said, which was
"they aren't really opposed to masks", meaning, I guess, that they really
want to wear masks but are somehow prevented by right-wing ideology.

On 5/22/2022 11:55 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>
>
> Meanwhile the Wuhan bioweapon was a first test run, 'proof of concept'
> as it were.

Odd test procedure for a "bioweapon": "Hey, let's unleash it on our own
economy first!"

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Sun, 22 May 2022 10:50:00 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>There are quite a few plague memorials in Europe. Some are incredibly
>elaborate and artistic.

Wrong plague. John mentioned:
"Covid is/was/may be a greater killer by a factor of 1.5 then all the
wars the U.S. has fought. When will we be building a monument?"
I managed to find one Covid monument and a few being considered for
construction. Adding 14th century Black Death monuments to the
discussion seems rather of place.

"Hardly Any 1918 Flu Memorials Exist. Will We Remember COVID-19
Differently?"
<https://www.npr.org/2020/12/08/940802688/hardly-any-1918-flu-memorials-exist-will-we-remember-covid-19-differently>

My guess(tm) is that after those participating in the current pandemic
are long dead and buried, and the debate over assigning the blame is
also dead and buried, there might be a few memorials built to honor
those who died.

I think China has the right idea. Inflatable monuments. For example:
<http://www.china-cart.com/d.asp?a=Traditional+Chinese+Wedding+Inflatable+Memorial+Arch&d=17539>
When a holiday arrives, just inflate the monument, install it in a
public location, celebrate, and then put it back in its storage
container for the next holiday. Inflatable monuments are also useful
for easily erasing all evidence of former politicians who have lost
favor with the ruling regime.

Giant inflatable moon:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=china+giant+inflatable+moon&tbm=isch>

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 5/22/2022 12:10 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 8:55:09 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 5/21/2022 7:56 PM, John B. wrote:
>>> On Sat, 21 May 2022 10:40:42 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 5/20/2022 11:14 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, 20 May 2022 21:40:38 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 8:55 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>> On Fri, 20 May 2022 17:43:58 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 4:59 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 12:12:10 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 10:36 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> "funkma...@hotmail.com" <funkma...@hotmail.com> writes:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/18/2022 11:50 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I remember Kamala Harris during the vice presidential debates saying
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that she would be very reluctant to take a "Trump vaccine", which was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> being developed in an awful hurry without adequate safeguards.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> What she _actually_ said during the debate was, “If the public health
>>>>>>>>>>>> professionals, if Dr. Fauci, if the doctors tell us that we should
>>>>>>>>>>>> take it, I’ll be the first in line to take it. Absolutely. But if
>>>>>>>>>>>> Donald Trump tells us that we should take it, I’m not taking it.â€
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I looked at the transcript, and it is indeed not exactly as remembered.
>>>>>>>>>>> On the other hand, had Trump won, he certainly would have told her and
>>>>>>>>>>> the rest of us to "take it".
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> She had
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a point there, but somehow after the vaccines rolled out right *after*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the election, they became "Biden vaccines",
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I must have missed the press releases naming the vaccines "trump" and
>>>>>>>>>>>> "biden". Would you have a link to a credible news source that notes
>>>>>>>>>>>> those terms specifically?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Those are my terms. I think they fit.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> You might enjoy this editorial from the NY Times, Sept 2020:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/02/opinion/coronavirus-vaccine-trump.html
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> It discusses the Gerald Ford vaccine, for swine flu, that was withdrawn
>>>>>>>>>>> after causing a few cases of Guillain-Barre syndrome, and compares it to
>>>>>>>>>>> Trump's operation warp speed. They make some good points, but after the
>>>>>>>>>>> election nothing like this was visible in the mainstream press.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> @WhiteHouse tweeted on 12 May 2022, 2:45 PM:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> When President Biden took office, millions were unemployed and there was
>>>>>>>>>>> no vaccine available.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sure sounds like they're trying to make it the Biden vaccine to me.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and every Democrat jumped on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the bandwagon to not only take the experimental vaccine, but to try to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> force everyone everywhere to take it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Hyperbole won't do you any favors. I was extremely hesitant. I waited
>>>>>>>>>>>> until july.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> You waited longer than I did. I don't think I would do it again, although
>>>>>>>>>>> nothing unusually bad has happened to me. My tinnitus is a lot worse,
>>>>>>>>>>> but it's hard to say if that's vaccine related or not. I have not and
>>>>>>>>>>> will not take a booster.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The complete revision of ideas about respiratory pandemic handling happened
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> during the *last two years*. That was not due to an increase in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> knowledge or wisdom.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> that's a completely ridiculous assertion. The Obama administration
>>>>>>>>>>>> implemented policies and created positions to manage pandemics, even
>>>>>>>>>>>> going so far as to embed a CDC advisor called "resident adviser to the
>>>>>>>>>>>> U.S. Field Epidemiology Training Program in China" in the Chinese
>>>>>>>>>>>> CDC. As soon as trump took office he went to work dismantling Obamas
>>>>>>>>>>>> pandemic response team and recalled the CDC advisor. If anything, the
>>>>>>>>>>>> trump administration dumbed down and ignored what had been learned
>>>>>>>>>>>> since the H1N1 outbreak in 2009.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.statnews.com/2020/05/17/the-art-of-the-pandemic-how-donald-trump-walked-the-u-s-into-the-covid-19-era/
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> 2 years is an overstatement, reflecting only the facts on the ground.
>>>>>>>>>>> The actual plans go back to Bush the younger's admininistration. 2009
>>>>>>>>>>> saw an abortive attempt to put the new plans into practice, but it just
>>>>>>>>>>> wasn't scary enough.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I recommend this article for some history on pandemic planning and how
>>>>>>>>>>> we got here:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.aier.org/article/the-2006-origins-of-the-lockdown-idea/
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Particularly the linked paper by D A Henderson, the guy most responsible
>>>>>>>>>>> for eradicating smallpox:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.552.1109&rep=rep1&type=pdf
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I know, Frank will say he's a winger. Whatever.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> For those of you who have read all the way here, a lagniappe, the Amish
>>>>>>>>>>> approach to covid:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1DgWYdukZU
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The Amish make the Swedes look like a nation of Chicken Littles, but
>>>>>>>>>>> they don't seem to have any regrets.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Much is unknown and given the political spin on statistical
>>>>>>>>>> gathering and analysis (in various countries) probably
>>>>>>>>>> unknowable now.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I see that Portugal has among the highest rates of mRNA shots:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.statista.com/statistics/1196071/covid-19-vaccination-rate-in-europe-by-country/
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> and also among the highest rate of reinfections. hmmm.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://ourworldindata.org/covid-cases
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Yes, reinfections. But getting reinfected is not that bad. You stay home from work one day and feel tired for awhile. Then you are good to go again. With no hospital stay in the ICU and no breathing tube and no death. So minimal to no harm being reinfected. Not many people have said the vaccine will prevent ALL infections. The vaccine just almost minimizes death and makes infections somewhat immaterial. Kind of like a pitcher and batter. He is throwing a fastball at 90 mph. It can hit you in the thigh, and leave a bruise. Or it can hit you in the head and leave you brain damaged. Seems to me getting the vaccine and getting hit in the thigh is better than not getting the vaccine and getting hit in the head. And yes the pitch/virus does not hit everyone. Sometimes the pitcher throws and you dive on the ground and the ball/virus goes over your head and misses you.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Then again, in direct conflict with the modern meaning of
>>>>>>>> the term 'vaccine' until two years ago, the mRNA shot
>>>>>>>> doesn't prevent reinfection or much more significantly,
>>>>>>>> doesn't keep that person from spreading it to others.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I agree that lower death rates for second/ third/ fourth
>>>>>>>> infections is a good thing. Then again it's 'lower' not
>>>>>>>> zero. Continued contraction and continuing contagion are
>>>>>>>> unhelpful.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I have to once more toss in the shameful history of AIDS and
>>>>>>>> CDC under Drs Gallo and Fauci. Great resources in money,
>>>>>>>> time and effort were pissed away on vaccine research for 35
>>>>>>>> years or so with no result. Early advocates of traditional
>>>>>>>> medical method- develop/discover therapeutics to prevent
>>>>>>>> death and improve health of the infected- were shouted down,
>>>>>>>> hounded, belittled. Yet here we are today where those evil
>>>>>>>> pharmaceutical organizations supply many and various
>>>>>>>> effective therapies such that even the poor in undeveloped
>>>>>>>> countries live out their lives for pennies per week of
>>>>>>>> treatment. Sound familiar? It's the same playbook and
>>>>>>>> written by at least some of the same people.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> BUT... what is the alternate? Just ignore it and hope it goes away?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ignoring the Covid and looking at HIV only, Thailand had a HIV rate of
>>>>>>> over 2% among pregnant women and over 4% among Thai
>>>>>>> military recruits. Without the use of a vaccine the rates have been
>>>>>>> reduced to 0.6% in pregnant women and military recruits. Largely
>>>>>>> through education and protective "devices".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yet when, in the U.S., Medics suggest the use of proactive devices,
>>>>>>> like masks, for the Covid, people are leaping up and down, waving
>>>>>>> their arms and shouting, "NO", "NO", "NO".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And yet, of the larger countries, say 250 million or larger population
>>>>>>> the U.S. is leading the pack in total cases and total deaths.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As for calculating normal deaths and excess deaths and so on?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well, during the 20 years of the Vietnam war where the total combat
>>>>>>> deaths were a paltry 47,434 compared with the over today's 1 million
>>>>>>> Covid deaths, nobody was shouting, "OH! Never mind it is only a few if
>>>>>>> you calculate the usual/normal/whatever death rates. No, you were
>>>>>>> running for the border in terror.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The numbers of people who emigrated to avoid the draft were
>>>>>> much smaller than the mythic version.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, I'm sure that you are correct. I am voicing what the professional
>>>>> military believed, or was told. Stories of the "cowards" streaming
>>>>> across the border were printed in the Air Force Times (the Air Force
>>>>> "in service newspaper").
>>>>>
>>>>> By the way, from all I read after it was all over they didn't
>>>>> Immigrate, they simply crossed the border and lived there. Technically
>>>>> as illegal immigrants.
>>>>>
>>>>> But you ignore my point, while people stand around yammering about
>>>>> excess deaths and old folk dying in an attempt to somehow de-demonize
>>>>> the Coved, this isn't done in wartime. Nope we build monuments to
>>>>> those who died in"the war". But to date, from the records I see, that
>>>>> in all the wars, invasions, military intrusions, etc., the U.S. has
>>>>> engaged in from 1775 to 2019 deaths in combat amounted to about
>>>>> 666,441. While Covid deaths, from 2020 to 2022 amounted to 1,028,741.
>>>>>
>>>>> So, one might (with out rationalizing) say that the Covid is/was/may
>>>>> be a greater killer by a factor of 1.5 then all the wars the U.S. has
>>>>> fought. When will we be building a monument?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Monuments come after we defeat china. This virus is merely a
>>>> first engagement.
>>>
>>> But, but, but! If you defeat China then your business will, likely,
>>> fail as I read that something like 86% of bicycles sold in the U.S.
>>> are made in China Can you survive on 14% of your current sales (:-?)
>>>
>> Embrace change. I recently received Bianchis from the first
>> new Bianchi factory built in Italy in decades. Nice product BTW.
>>
>> Meanwhile the Wuhan bioweapon was a first test run, 'proof
>> of concept' as it were.

On 5/22/2022 1:58 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 5/22/2022 11:55 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>
>>
>> Meanwhile the Wuhan bioweapon was a first test run, 'proof
>> of concept' as it were.
>
> Odd test procedure for a "bioweapon": "Hey, let's unleash it
> on our own economy first!"
>
>

The Chinese Communist Party is not uniquely evil. They may
be world-class feckless even by Major World Power standards.
Which are low:

January 2022:
https://www.pennlive.com/news/2022/01/euthanasia-guidelines-followed-when-3-escaped-monkeys-were-killed-police.html
May 2022:
https://nypost.com/2022/05/22/biden-says-monkeypox-cases-something-to-be-concerned-about/

Don't leave out the Russians:

https://miningawareness.wordpress.com/2022/02/27/russia-bioweapons-program-soviet-and-post-soviet/

or the British:
https://www.ucl.ac.uk/impact/case-studies/2014/dec/secret-science-chemical-and-biological-warfare-research-and-policy-britain

An unique aspect of the Wuhan affair is the recently
released (FOIA) emails of upper management CDC panic to
destroy evidence when deaths were first publicized. US
government research and funding played significantly in
developing that novel virus.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 2:12:33 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 5/22/2022 12:10 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 8:55:09 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >> On 5/21/2022 7:56 PM, John B. wrote:
> >>> On Sat, 21 May 2022 10:40:42 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On 5/20/2022 11:14 PM, John B. wrote:
> >>>>> On Fri, 20 May 2022 21:40:38 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On 5/20/2022 8:55 PM, John B. wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Fri, 20 May 2022 17:43:58 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 4:59 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 12:12:10 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 10:36 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>> "funkma...@hotmail.com" <funkma...@hotmail.com> writes:
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/18/2022 11:50 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I remember Kamala Harris during the vice presidential debates saying
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that she would be very reluctant to take a "Trump vaccine", which was
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> being developed in an awful hurry without adequate safeguards.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> What she _actually_ said during the debate was, “If the public health
> >>>>>>>>>>>> professionals, if Dr. Fauci, if the doctors tell us that we should
> >>>>>>>>>>>> take it, I’ll be the first in line to take it. Absolutely. But if
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Donald Trump tells us that we should take it, I’m not taking it.â€
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> I looked at the transcript, and it is indeed not exactly as remembered.
> >>>>>>>>>>> On the other hand, had Trump won, he certainly would have told her and
> >>>>>>>>>>> the rest of us to "take it".
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> She had
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> a point there, but somehow after the vaccines rolled out right *after*
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the election, they became "Biden vaccines",
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> I must have missed the press releases naming the vaccines "trump" and
> >>>>>>>>>>>> "biden". Would you have a link to a credible news source that notes
> >>>>>>>>>>>> those terms specifically?
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Those are my terms. I think they fit.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> You might enjoy this editorial from the NY Times, Sept 2020:
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/02/opinion/coronavirus-vaccine-trump.html
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> It discusses the Gerald Ford vaccine, for swine flu, that was withdrawn
> >>>>>>>>>>> after causing a few cases of Guillain-Barre syndrome, and compares it to
> >>>>>>>>>>> Trump's operation warp speed. They make some good points, but after the
> >>>>>>>>>>> election nothing like this was visible in the mainstream press.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> @WhiteHouse tweeted on 12 May 2022, 2:45 PM:
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> When President Biden took office, millions were unemployed and there was
> >>>>>>>>>>> no vaccine available.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Sure sounds like they're trying to make it the Biden vaccine to me.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and every Democrat jumped on
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the bandwagon to not only take the experimental vaccine, but to try to
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> force everyone everywhere to take it.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Hyperbole won't do you any favors. I was extremely hesitant. I waited
> >>>>>>>>>>>> until july.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> You waited longer than I did. I don't think I would do it again, although
> >>>>>>>>>>> nothing unusually bad has happened to me. My tinnitus is a lot worse,
> >>>>>>>>>>> but it's hard to say if that's vaccine related or not. I have not and
> >>>>>>>>>>> will not take a booster.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The complete revision of ideas about respiratory pandemic handling happened
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> during the *last two years*. That was not due to an increase in
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> knowledge or wisdom.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> that's a completely ridiculous assertion. The Obama administration
> >>>>>>>>>>>> implemented policies and created positions to manage pandemics, even
> >>>>>>>>>>>> going so far as to embed a CDC advisor called "resident adviser to the
> >>>>>>>>>>>> U.S. Field Epidemiology Training Program in China" in the Chinese
> >>>>>>>>>>>> CDC. As soon as trump took office he went to work dismantling Obamas
> >>>>>>>>>>>> pandemic response team and recalled the CDC advisor. If anything, the
> >>>>>>>>>>>> trump administration dumbed down and ignored what had been learned
> >>>>>>>>>>>> since the H1N1 outbreak in 2009.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.statnews.com/2020/05/17/the-art-of-the-pandemic-how-donald-trump-walked-the-u-s-into-the-covid-19-era/
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> 2 years is an overstatement, reflecting only the facts on the ground.
> >>>>>>>>>>> The actual plans go back to Bush the younger's admininistration. 2009
> >>>>>>>>>>> saw an abortive attempt to put the new plans into practice, but it just
> >>>>>>>>>>> wasn't scary enough.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> I recommend this article for some history on pandemic planning and how
> >>>>>>>>>>> we got here:
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> https://www.aier.org/article/the-2006-origins-of-the-lockdown-idea/
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Particularly the linked paper by D A Henderson, the guy most responsible
> >>>>>>>>>>> for eradicating smallpox:
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.552.1109&rep=rep1&type=pdf
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> I know, Frank will say he's a winger. Whatever.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> For those of you who have read all the way here, a lagniappe, the Amish
> >>>>>>>>>>> approach to covid:
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1DgWYdukZU
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> The Amish make the Swedes look like a nation of Chicken Littles, but
> >>>>>>>>>>> they don't seem to have any regrets.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Much is unknown and given the political spin on statistical
> >>>>>>>>>> gathering and analysis (in various countries) probably
> >>>>>>>>>> unknowable now.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> I see that Portugal has among the highest rates of mRNA shots:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> https://www.statista.com/statistics/1196071/covid-19-vaccination-rate-in-europe-by-country/
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> and also among the highest rate of reinfections. hmmm.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> https://ourworldindata.org/covid-cases
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Yes, reinfections. But getting reinfected is not that bad. You stay home from work one day and feel tired for awhile. Then you are good to go again. With no hospital stay in the ICU and no breathing tube and no death. So minimal to no harm being reinfected. Not many people have said the vaccine will prevent ALL infections. The vaccine just almost minimizes death and makes infections somewhat immaterial. Kind of like a pitcher and batter. He is throwing a fastball at 90 mph. It can hit you in the thigh, and leave a bruise. Or it can hit you in the head and leave you brain damaged. Seems to me getting the vaccine and getting hit in the thigh is better than not getting the vaccine and getting hit in the head. And yes the pitch/virus does not hit everyone. Sometimes the pitcher throws and you dive on the ground and the ball/virus goes over your head and misses you.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Then again, in direct conflict with the modern meaning of
> >>>>>>>> the term 'vaccine' until two years ago, the mRNA shot
> >>>>>>>> doesn't prevent reinfection or much more significantly,
> >>>>>>>> doesn't keep that person from spreading it to others.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I agree that lower death rates for second/ third/ fourth
> >>>>>>>> infections is a good thing. Then again it's 'lower' not
> >>>>>>>> zero. Continued contraction and continuing contagion are
> >>>>>>>> unhelpful.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I have to once more toss in the shameful history of AIDS and
> >>>>>>>> CDC under Drs Gallo and Fauci. Great resources in money,
> >>>>>>>> time and effort were pissed away on vaccine research for 35
> >>>>>>>> years or so with no result. Early advocates of traditional
> >>>>>>>> medical method- develop/discover therapeutics to prevent
> >>>>>>>> death and improve health of the infected- were shouted down,
> >>>>>>>> hounded, belittled. Yet here we are today where those evil
> >>>>>>>> pharmaceutical organizations supply many and various
> >>>>>>>> effective therapies such that even the poor in undeveloped
> >>>>>>>> countries live out their lives for pennies per week of
> >>>>>>>> treatment. Sound familiar? It's the same playbook and
> >>>>>>>> written by at least some of the same people.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> BUT... what is the alternate? Just ignore it and hope it goes away?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Ignoring the Covid and looking at HIV only, Thailand had a HIV rate of
> >>>>>>> over 2% among pregnant women and over 4% among Thai
> >>>>>>> military recruits. Without the use of a vaccine the rates have been
> >>>>>>> reduced to 0.6% in pregnant women and military recruits. Largely
> >>>>>>> through education and protective "devices".
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Yet when, in the U.S., Medics suggest the use of proactive devices,
> >>>>>>> like masks, for the Covid, people are leaping up and down, waving
> >>>>>>> their arms and shouting, "NO", "NO", "NO".
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> And yet, of the larger countries, say 250 million or larger population
> >>>>>>> the U.S. is leading the pack in total cases and total deaths.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> As for calculating normal deaths and excess deaths and so on?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Well, during the 20 years of the Vietnam war where the total combat
> >>>>>>> deaths were a paltry 47,434 compared with the over today's 1 million
> >>>>>>> Covid deaths, nobody was shouting, "OH! Never mind it is only a few if
> >>>>>>> you calculate the usual/normal/whatever death rates. No, you were
> >>>>>>> running for the border in terror.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> The numbers of people who emigrated to avoid the draft were
> >>>>>> much smaller than the mythic version.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Yes, I'm sure that you are correct. I am voicing what the professional
> >>>>> military believed, or was told. Stories of the "cowards" streaming
> >>>>> across the border were printed in the Air Force Times (the Air Force
> >>>>> "in service newspaper").
> >>>>>
> >>>>> By the way, from all I read after it was all over they didn't
> >>>>> Immigrate, they simply crossed the border and lived there. Technically
> >>>>> as illegal immigrants.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> But you ignore my point, while people stand around yammering about
> >>>>> excess deaths and old folk dying in an attempt to somehow de-demonize
> >>>>> the Coved, this isn't done in wartime. Nope we build monuments to
> >>>>> those who died in"the war". But to date, from the records I see, that
> >>>>> in all the wars, invasions, military intrusions, etc., the U.S. has
> >>>>> engaged in from 1775 to 2019 deaths in combat amounted to about
> >>>>> 666,441. While Covid deaths, from 2020 to 2022 amounted to 1,028,741.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> So, one might (with out rationalizing) say that the Covid is/was/may
> >>>>> be a greater killer by a factor of 1.5 then all the wars the U.S. has
> >>>>> fought. When will we be building a monument?
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Monuments come after we defeat china. This virus is merely a
> >>>> first engagement.
> >>>
> >>> But, but, but! If you defeat China then your business will, likely,
> >>> fail as I read that something like 86% of bicycles sold in the U.S.
> >>> are made in China Can you survive on 14% of your current sales (:-?)
> >>>
> >> Embrace change. I recently received Bianchis from the first
> >> new Bianchi factory built in Italy in decades. Nice product BTW.
> >>
> >> Meanwhile the Wuhan bioweapon was a first test run, 'proof
> >> of concept' as it were.
> > There was no bioweapon and I've shown the CDC statistics many times. What we've had is a million overall deaths from the lockdowns, Then they INSINUATE that these extra deaths were from covid. From the start of 2020 until now we've had 300,000 excess deaths from Fentanyl alone. Being greatly overweight and drinking to excess has killed hundreds of thousands as well.
> >
> > IF you look at the movies you detect something that never occurred before Fauci's false pandemic - EVERYONE IS DRINKING WHISKY and SMOKING which I thought was against the law, Is it any surprise that the group most heavily effected by this propaganda are doing the same thing and dying in droves from it?
> >
> Drinking whiskey and smoking against the law? Not hardly.
>
> The government could not afford that.
>
> https://www.statista.com/statistics/248952/revenues-from-alcohol-tax-and-forecast-in-the-us/
>
> https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-soi/histab20.xls
>
> Tobacco is row 140, recent years columns AJ AK AL.

On Sun, 22 May 2022 14:58:17 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 5/22/2022 11:55 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>
>>
>> Meanwhile the Wuhan bioweapon was a first test run, 'proof of concept'
>> as it were.
>
>Odd test procedure for a "bioweapon": "Hey, let's unleash it on our own
>economy first!"

But why ever not? After all the great flu epidemic of the early 1900's
was labeled The "Spanish Flu" when the first documented case was in
Kansas, USA.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 9:41:47 AM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 5/21/2022 8:50 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
> > sms <scharf...@geemail.com> writes:
> >
> >> On 5/20/2022 6:55 PM, John B. wrote:
> >>
> >> <snip>
> >>
> >>> Yet when, in the U.S., Medics suggest the use of proactive devices,
> >>> like masks, for the Covid, people are leaping up and down, waving
> >>> their arms and shouting, "NO", "NO", "NO".
> >>
> >> To be fair, you have a few, very vocal, crazies, protesting the
> >> requirement to wear masks in public, and spreading fake news about
> >> vaccines and the number of Covid deaths.
> >>
> >> Don't let the antics of a few uneducated, far-right, Trump supporters
> >> make you believe that it's anything more than a tiny minority of U.S.
> >> residents that are opposed to using protective devices.
> >>
> >> Even then, they aren't really opposed to masks, it's part of a culture
> >> war: "highly-educated, highly-qualified, medical professionals are
> >> explaining the benefits of masks, but we have a _right_ to be stupid
> >> and believe Donald Trump and Ron DeSantis."
> >
> > They're not really opposed to masks? I think a lot of people really
> > don't like wearing masks, particularly for eight or more hours a day.
> > I'm sure people don't like having to make their two year old children
> > wear masks on long airplane flights. You can argue that their
> > understanding of the facts is wrong, but saying that large numbers are
> > lying about perfectly reasonable preferences just seems off.
> There are plenty of people opposed to masks, as in "You can't make me
> wear one." That statement is not usually followed by "for eight hours"
> or "this entire airline flight." They'll say that regarding a five
> minute visit to a convenience store.
>
> It's a bit like attitudes toward washing one's face. Very few people
> love to do it, but few are actually opposed to it. Even most kids do it
> when told to. But some whiny little kids are opposed to washing their
> faces, and throw tantrums when told to do so.
>
> --
> - Frank Krygowski

Frank, probably washing your hands is a better example. After using the toilet. Some people do, and some don't. Not washing can spread germs to other people. Same as not wearing a mask. Can spread Covid to other people. I wonder if the anti mask Trumpers will now start screaming and complaining about the formerly universally accepted custom, hygiene, of washing your hands after using the toilet. Its an infringement on my rights to not wash my hands. I demand no one wash their hands and no one wear a mask.

On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 10:55:09 AM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> On 5/21/2022 7:56 PM, John B. wrote:
> > On Sat, 21 May 2022 10:40:42 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >
> >> On 5/20/2022 11:14 PM, John B. wrote:
> >>> On Fri, 20 May 2022 21:40:38 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On 5/20/2022 8:55 PM, John B. wrote:
> >>>>> On Fri, 20 May 2022 17:43:58 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On 5/20/2022 4:59 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 12:12:10 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 10:36 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> "funkma...@hotmail.com" <funkma...@hotmail.com> writes:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> On 5/18/2022 11:50 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> I remember Kamala Harris during the vice presidential debates saying
> >>>>>>>>>>>> that she would be very reluctant to take a "Trump vaccine", which was
> >>>>>>>>>>>> being developed in an awful hurry without adequate safeguards.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> What she _actually_ said during the debate was, “If the public health
> >>>>>>>>>> professionals, if Dr. Fauci, if the doctors tell us that we should
> >>>>>>>>>> take it, I’ll be the first in line to take it. Absolutely. But if
> >>>>>>>>>> Donald Trump tells us that we should take it, I’m not taking it.â€
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> I looked at the transcript, and it is indeed not exactly as remembered.
> >>>>>>>>> On the other hand, had Trump won, he certainly would have told her and
> >>>>>>>>> the rest of us to "take it".
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> She had
> >>>>>>>>>>>> a point there, but somehow after the vaccines rolled out right *after*
> >>>>>>>>>>>> the election, they became "Biden vaccines",
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> I must have missed the press releases naming the vaccines "trump" and
> >>>>>>>>>> "biden". Would you have a link to a credible news source that notes
> >>>>>>>>>> those terms specifically?
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Those are my terms. I think they fit.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> You might enjoy this editorial from the NY Times, Sept 2020:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/02/opinion/coronavirus-vaccine-trump.html
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> It discusses the Gerald Ford vaccine, for swine flu, that was withdrawn
> >>>>>>>>> after causing a few cases of Guillain-Barre syndrome, and compares it to
> >>>>>>>>> Trump's operation warp speed. They make some good points, but after the
> >>>>>>>>> election nothing like this was visible in the mainstream press.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> @WhiteHouse tweeted on 12 May 2022, 2:45 PM:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> When President Biden took office, millions were unemployed and there was
> >>>>>>>>> no vaccine available.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Sure sounds like they're trying to make it the Biden vaccine to me.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> and every Democrat jumped on
> >>>>>>>>>>>> the bandwagon to not only take the experimental vaccine, but to try to
> >>>>>>>>>>>> force everyone everywhere to take it.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Hyperbole won't do you any favors. I was extremely hesitant. I waited
> >>>>>>>>>> until july.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> You waited longer than I did. I don't think I would do it again, although
> >>>>>>>>> nothing unusually bad has happened to me. My tinnitus is a lot worse,
> >>>>>>>>> but it's hard to say if that's vaccine related or not. I have not and
> >>>>>>>>> will not take a booster.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> The complete revision of ideas about respiratory pandemic handling happened
> >>>>>>>>>>>> during the *last two years*. That was not due to an increase in
> >>>>>>>>>>>> knowledge or wisdom.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> that's a completely ridiculous assertion. The Obama administration
> >>>>>>>>>> implemented policies and created positions to manage pandemics, even
> >>>>>>>>>> going so far as to embed a CDC advisor called "resident adviser to the
> >>>>>>>>>> U.S. Field Epidemiology Training Program in China" in the Chinese
> >>>>>>>>>> CDC. As soon as trump took office he went to work dismantling Obamas
> >>>>>>>>>> pandemic response team and recalled the CDC advisor. If anything, the
> >>>>>>>>>> trump administration dumbed down and ignored what had been learned
> >>>>>>>>>> since the H1N1 outbreak in 2009.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> https://www.statnews.com/2020/05/17/the-art-of-the-pandemic-how-donald-trump-walked-the-u-s-into-the-covid-19-era/
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> 2 years is an overstatement, reflecting only the facts on the ground.
> >>>>>>>>> The actual plans go back to Bush the younger's admininistration.. 2009
> >>>>>>>>> saw an abortive attempt to put the new plans into practice, but it just
> >>>>>>>>> wasn't scary enough.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> I recommend this article for some history on pandemic planning and how
> >>>>>>>>> we got here:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> https://www.aier.org/article/the-2006-origins-of-the-lockdown-idea/
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Particularly the linked paper by D A Henderson, the guy most responsible
> >>>>>>>>> for eradicating smallpox:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.552.1109&rep=rep1&type=pdf
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> I know, Frank will say he's a winger. Whatever.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> For those of you who have read all the way here, a lagniappe, the Amish
> >>>>>>>>> approach to covid:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1DgWYdukZU
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> The Amish make the Swedes look like a nation of Chicken Littles, but
> >>>>>>>>> they don't seem to have any regrets.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Much is unknown and given the political spin on statistical
> >>>>>>>> gathering and analysis (in various countries) probably
> >>>>>>>> unknowable now.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I see that Portugal has among the highest rates of mRNA shots:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> https://www.statista.com/statistics/1196071/covid-19-vaccination-rate-in-europe-by-country/
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> and also among the highest rate of reinfections. hmmm.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> https://ourworldindata.org/covid-cases
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Yes, reinfections. But getting reinfected is not that bad. You stay home from work one day and feel tired for awhile. Then you are good to go again. With no hospital stay in the ICU and no breathing tube and no death. So minimal to no harm being reinfected. Not many people have said the vaccine will prevent ALL infections. The vaccine just almost minimizes death and makes infections somewhat immaterial. Kind of like a pitcher and batter.. He is throwing a fastball at 90 mph. It can hit you in the thigh, and leave a bruise. Or it can hit you in the head and leave you brain damaged. Seems to me getting the vaccine and getting hit in the thigh is better than not getting the vaccine and getting hit in the head. And yes the pitch/virus does not hit everyone. Sometimes the pitcher throws and you dive on the ground and the ball/virus goes over your head and misses you.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Then again, in direct conflict with the modern meaning of
> >>>>>> the term 'vaccine' until two years ago, the mRNA shot
> >>>>>> doesn't prevent reinfection or much more significantly,
> >>>>>> doesn't keep that person from spreading it to others.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I agree that lower death rates for second/ third/ fourth
> >>>>>> infections is a good thing. Then again it's 'lower' not
> >>>>>> zero. Continued contraction and continuing contagion are
> >>>>>> unhelpful.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I have to once more toss in the shameful history of AIDS and
> >>>>>> CDC under Drs Gallo and Fauci. Great resources in money,
> >>>>>> time and effort were pissed away on vaccine research for 35
> >>>>>> years or so with no result. Early advocates of traditional
> >>>>>> medical method- develop/discover therapeutics to prevent
> >>>>>> death and improve health of the infected- were shouted down,
> >>>>>> hounded, belittled. Yet here we are today where those evil
> >>>>>> pharmaceutical organizations supply many and various
> >>>>>> effective therapies such that even the poor in undeveloped
> >>>>>> countries live out their lives for pennies per week of
> >>>>>> treatment. Sound familiar? It's the same playbook and
> >>>>>> written by at least some of the same people.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> BUT... what is the alternate? Just ignore it and hope it goes away?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Ignoring the Covid and looking at HIV only, Thailand had a HIV rate of
> >>>>> over 2% among pregnant women and over 4% among Thai
> >>>>> military recruits. Without the use of a vaccine the rates have been
> >>>>> reduced to 0.6% in pregnant women and military recruits. Largely
> >>>>> through education and protective "devices".
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Yet when, in the U.S., Medics suggest the use of proactive devices,
> >>>>> like masks, for the Covid, people are leaping up and down, waving
> >>>>> their arms and shouting, "NO", "NO", "NO".
> >>>>>
> >>>>> And yet, of the larger countries, say 250 million or larger population
> >>>>> the U.S. is leading the pack in total cases and total deaths.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> As for calculating normal deaths and excess deaths and so on?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Well, during the 20 years of the Vietnam war where the total combat
> >>>>> deaths were a paltry 47,434 compared with the over today's 1 million
> >>>>> Covid deaths, nobody was shouting, "OH! Never mind it is only a few if
> >>>>> you calculate the usual/normal/whatever death rates. No, you were
> >>>>> running for the border in terror.
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> The numbers of people who emigrated to avoid the draft were
> >>>> much smaller than the mythic version.
> >>>
> >>> Yes, I'm sure that you are correct. I am voicing what the professional
> >>> military believed, or was told. Stories of the "cowards" streaming
> >>> across the border were printed in the Air Force Times (the Air Force
> >>> "in service newspaper").
> >>>
> >>> By the way, from all I read after it was all over they didn't
> >>> Immigrate, they simply crossed the border and lived there. Technically
> >>> as illegal immigrants.
> >>>
> >>> But you ignore my point, while people stand around yammering about
> >>> excess deaths and old folk dying in an attempt to somehow de-demonize
> >>> the Coved, this isn't done in wartime. Nope we build monuments to
> >>> those who died in"the war". But to date, from the records I see, that
> >>> in all the wars, invasions, military intrusions, etc., the U.S. has
> >>> engaged in from 1775 to 2019 deaths in combat amounted to about
> >>> 666,441. While Covid deaths, from 2020 to 2022 amounted to 1,028,741.
> >>>
> >>> So, one might (with out rationalizing) say that the Covid is/was/may
> >>> be a greater killer by a factor of 1.5 then all the wars the U.S. has
> >>> fought. When will we be building a monument?
> >>>
> >>
> >> Monuments come after we defeat china. This virus is merely a
> >> first engagement.
> >
> > But, but, but! If you defeat China then your business will, likely,
> > fail as I read that something like 86% of bicycles sold in the U.S.
> > are made in China Can you survive on 14% of your current sales (:-?)
> >
> Embrace change. I recently received Bianchis from the first
> new Bianchi factory built in Italy in decades. Nice product BTW.

On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 11:59:57 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 5:50:19 PM UTC-7, Radey Shouman wrote:
> > sms <scharf...@geemail.com> writes:
> >
> > > On 5/20/2022 6:55 PM, John B. wrote:
> > >
> > > <snip>
> > >
> > >> Yet when, in the U.S., Medics suggest the use of proactive devices,
> > >> like masks, for the Covid, people are leaping up and down, waving
> > >> their arms and shouting, "NO", "NO", "NO".
> > >
> > > To be fair, you have a few, very vocal, crazies, protesting the
> > > requirement to wear masks in public, and spreading fake news about
> > > vaccines and the number of Covid deaths.
> > >
> > > Don't let the antics of a few uneducated, far-right, Trump supporters
> > > make you believe that it's anything more than a tiny minority of U.S.
> > > residents that are opposed to using protective devices.
> > >
> > > Even then, they aren't really opposed to masks, it's part of a culture
> > > war: "highly-educated, highly-qualified, medical professionals are
> > > explaining the benefits of masks, but we have a _right_ to be stupid
> > > and believe Donald Trump and Ron DeSantis."
> > They're not really opposed to masks? I think a lot of people really
> > don't like wearing masks, particularly for eight or more hours a day.
> > I'm sure people don't like having to make their two year old children
> > wear masks on long airplane flights. You can argue that their
> > understanding of the facts is wrong, but saying that large numbers are
> > lying about perfectly reasonable preferences just seems off.
> On a really smart day Scharf has the IQ of a garden snail. In many places in the world they don't even use masks in the operating room because studies show that they don't even prevent bacterial diseases let alone viral diseases. Here is what a surgeon friend referred me to. He works with Doctors Without Borders and they do not use masks in places like Africa. https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/5/19-0994_article

Tommy, your article does not mention Doctors Without Borders and Africa. So its likely you are just making that up to sound important. But I did read your CDC link about influenza virus and hand washing and face masks and other preventative measures that have been frequently used. The conclusion is more or less, nothing impacts influenza spread. So some, like you, would say do nothing.

Quotes from your article:
"Hand hygiene is a widely used intervention and has been shown to effectively reduce the transmission of gastrointestinal infections and respiratory infections (26). However, in our systematic review, updating the findings of Wong et al. (8), we did not find evidence of a major effect of hand hygiene on laboratory-confirmed influenza virus transmission (Figure 1). Nevertheless, hand hygiene might be included in influenza pandemic plans as part of general hygiene and infection prevention.

We did not find evidence that surgical-type face masks are effective in reducing laboratory-confirmed influenza transmission, either when worn by infected persons (source control) or by persons in the general community to reduce their susceptibility (Figure 2). However, as with hand hygiene, face masks might be able to reduce the transmission of other infections and therefore have value in an influenza pandemic when healthcare resources are stretched."

Questions to ask: Is the Covid virus and the influenza virus identical in spreading? This study/studies was on influenza. Can it be applied to Covid? And in the article it states several times that the face mask wearing was not absolute and the fitting was not always good. So can you put much faith in an admittedly improperly run, defective test?

On Sun, 22 May 2022 16:33:46 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 5/22/2022 1:58 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 5/22/2022 11:55 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Meanwhile the Wuhan bioweapon was a first test run, 'proof
>>> of concept' as it were.
>>
>> Odd test procedure for a "bioweapon": "Hey, let's unleash it
>> on our own economy first!"
>>
>>
>
>The Chinese Communist Party is not uniquely evil. They may
>be world-class feckless even by Major World Power standards.
>Which are low:
>
>January 2022:
>https://www.pennlive.com/news/2022/01/euthanasia-guidelines-followed-when-3-escaped-monkeys-were-killed-police.html
>May 2022:
>https://nypost.com/2022/05/22/biden-says-monkeypox-cases-something-to-be-concerned-about/
>
>Don't leave out the Russians:
>
>https://miningawareness.wordpress.com/2022/02/27/russia-bioweapons-program-soviet-and-post-soviet/
>
>or the British:
>https://www.ucl.ac.uk/impact/case-studies/2014/dec/secret-science-chemical-and-biological-warfare-research-and-policy-britain
>
>An unique aspect of the Wuhan affair is the recently
>released (FOIA) emails of upper management CDC panic to
>destroy evidence when deaths were first publicized. US
>government research and funding played significantly in
>developing that novel virus.

You skipped the USians.
"The United States biological weapons program officially began in
spring 1943 on orders from U.S. President Franklin Roosevelt. Research
continued following World War II as the U.S. built up a large
stockpile of biological agents and weapons.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_biological_weapons_program#Early_history_(1918%E2%80%931941)
and Chemical Weapons?
In 1990, on the heels of the Cold War, the United States possessed the
world's second largest chemical weapons arsenal after Russia,
consisting of more than 31,500 U.S. tons (28,577 MT) of lethal
chemical agents and munitions.
https://www.armscontrol.org/factsheets/us-chemical-weapons-stockpile

--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 4:42:05 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 2:12:33 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > On 5/22/2022 12:10 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 8:55:09 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > >> On 5/21/2022 7:56 PM, John B. wrote:
> > >>> On Sat, 21 May 2022 10:40:42 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>> On 5/20/2022 11:14 PM, John B. wrote:
> > >>>>> On Fri, 20 May 2022 21:40:38 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> On 5/20/2022 8:55 PM, John B. wrote:
> > >>>>>>> On Fri, 20 May 2022 17:43:58 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 4:59 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 12:12:10 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 10:36 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>> "funkma...@hotmail.com" <funkma...@hotmail.com> writes:
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/18/2022 11:50 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I remember Kamala Harris during the vice presidential debates saying
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that she would be very reluctant to take a "Trump vaccine", which was
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> being developed in an awful hurry without adequate safeguards.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> What she _actually_ said during the debate was, “If the public health
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> professionals, if Dr. Fauci, if the doctors tell us that we should
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> take it, I’ll be the first in line to take it. Absolutely. But if
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Donald Trump tells us that we should take it, I’m not taking it.â€
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> I looked at the transcript, and it is indeed not exactly as remembered.
> > >>>>>>>>>>> On the other hand, had Trump won, he certainly would have told her and
> > >>>>>>>>>>> the rest of us to "take it".
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> She had
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> a point there, but somehow after the vaccines rolled out right *after*
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the election, they became "Biden vaccines",
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> I must have missed the press releases naming the vaccines "trump" and
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> "biden". Would you have a link to a credible news source that notes
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> those terms specifically?
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Those are my terms. I think they fit.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> You might enjoy this editorial from the NY Times, Sept 2020:
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/02/opinion/coronavirus-vaccine-trump.html
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> It discusses the Gerald Ford vaccine, for swine flu, that was withdrawn
> > >>>>>>>>>>> after causing a few cases of Guillain-Barre syndrome, and compares it to
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Trump's operation warp speed. They make some good points, but after the
> > >>>>>>>>>>> election nothing like this was visible in the mainstream press.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> @WhiteHouse tweeted on 12 May 2022, 2:45 PM:
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> When President Biden took office, millions were unemployed and there was
> > >>>>>>>>>>> no vaccine available.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Sure sounds like they're trying to make it the Biden vaccine to me.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and every Democrat jumped on
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the bandwagon to not only take the experimental vaccine, but to try to
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> force everyone everywhere to take it.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Hyperbole won't do you any favors. I was extremely hesitant. I waited
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> until july.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> You waited longer than I did. I don't think I would do it again, although
> > >>>>>>>>>>> nothing unusually bad has happened to me. My tinnitus is a lot worse,
> > >>>>>>>>>>> but it's hard to say if that's vaccine related or not. I have not and
> > >>>>>>>>>>> will not take a booster.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The complete revision of ideas about respiratory pandemic handling happened
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> during the *last two years*. That was not due to an increase in
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> knowledge or wisdom.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> that's a completely ridiculous assertion. The Obama administration
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> implemented policies and created positions to manage pandemics, even
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> going so far as to embed a CDC advisor called "resident adviser to the
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> U.S. Field Epidemiology Training Program in China" in the Chinese
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> CDC. As soon as trump took office he went to work dismantling Obamas
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> pandemic response team and recalled the CDC advisor. If anything, the
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> trump administration dumbed down and ignored what had been learned
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> since the H1N1 outbreak in 2009.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.statnews.com/2020/05/17/the-art-of-the-pandemic-how-donald-trump-walked-the-u-s-into-the-covid-19-era/
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> 2 years is an overstatement, reflecting only the facts on the ground.
> > >>>>>>>>>>> The actual plans go back to Bush the younger's admininistration. 2009
> > >>>>>>>>>>> saw an abortive attempt to put the new plans into practice, but it just
> > >>>>>>>>>>> wasn't scary enough.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> I recommend this article for some history on pandemic planning and how
> > >>>>>>>>>>> we got here:
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> https://www.aier.org/article/the-2006-origins-of-the-lockdown-idea/
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Particularly the linked paper by D A Henderson, the guy most responsible
> > >>>>>>>>>>> for eradicating smallpox:
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.552.1109&rep=rep1&type=pdf
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> I know, Frank will say he's a winger. Whatever.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> For those of you who have read all the way here, a lagniappe, the Amish
> > >>>>>>>>>>> approach to covid:
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1DgWYdukZU
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> The Amish make the Swedes look like a nation of Chicken Littles, but
> > >>>>>>>>>>> they don't seem to have any regrets.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> Much is unknown and given the political spin on statistical
> > >>>>>>>>>> gathering and analysis (in various countries) probably
> > >>>>>>>>>> unknowable now.
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> I see that Portugal has among the highest rates of mRNA shots:
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> https://www.statista.com/statistics/1196071/covid-19-vaccination-rate-in-europe-by-country/
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> and also among the highest rate of reinfections. hmmm.
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> https://ourworldindata.org/covid-cases
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> Yes, reinfections. But getting reinfected is not that bad. You stay home from work one day and feel tired for awhile. Then you are good to go again. With no hospital stay in the ICU and no breathing tube and no death. So minimal to no harm being reinfected. Not many people have said the vaccine will prevent ALL infections. The vaccine just almost minimizes death and makes infections somewhat immaterial. Kind of like a pitcher and batter. He is throwing a fastball at 90 mph. It can hit you in the thigh, and leave a bruise. Or it can hit you in the head and leave you brain damaged. Seems to me getting the vaccine and getting hit in the thigh is better than not getting the vaccine and getting hit in the head. And yes the pitch/virus does not hit everyone. Sometimes the pitcher throws and you dive on the ground and the ball/virus goes over your head and misses you.
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Then again, in direct conflict with the modern meaning of
> > >>>>>>>> the term 'vaccine' until two years ago, the mRNA shot
> > >>>>>>>> doesn't prevent reinfection or much more significantly,
> > >>>>>>>> doesn't keep that person from spreading it to others.
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> I agree that lower death rates for second/ third/ fourth
> > >>>>>>>> infections is a good thing. Then again it's 'lower' not
> > >>>>>>>> zero. Continued contraction and continuing contagion are
> > >>>>>>>> unhelpful.
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> I have to once more toss in the shameful history of AIDS and
> > >>>>>>>> CDC under Drs Gallo and Fauci. Great resources in money,
> > >>>>>>>> time and effort were pissed away on vaccine research for 35
> > >>>>>>>> years or so with no result. Early advocates of traditional
> > >>>>>>>> medical method- develop/discover therapeutics to prevent
> > >>>>>>>> death and improve health of the infected- were shouted down,
> > >>>>>>>> hounded, belittled. Yet here we are today where those evil
> > >>>>>>>> pharmaceutical organizations supply many and various
> > >>>>>>>> effective therapies such that even the poor in undeveloped
> > >>>>>>>> countries live out their lives for pennies per week of
> > >>>>>>>> treatment. Sound familiar? It's the same playbook and
> > >>>>>>>> written by at least some of the same people.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> BUT... what is the alternate? Just ignore it and hope it goes away?
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Ignoring the Covid and looking at HIV only, Thailand had a HIV rate of
> > >>>>>>> over 2% among pregnant women and over 4% among Thai
> > >>>>>>> military recruits. Without the use of a vaccine the rates have been
> > >>>>>>> reduced to 0.6% in pregnant women and military recruits. Largely
> > >>>>>>> through education and protective "devices".
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Yet when, in the U.S., Medics suggest the use of proactive devices,
> > >>>>>>> like masks, for the Covid, people are leaping up and down, waving
> > >>>>>>> their arms and shouting, "NO", "NO", "NO".
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> And yet, of the larger countries, say 250 million or larger population
> > >>>>>>> the U.S. is leading the pack in total cases and total deaths.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> As for calculating normal deaths and excess deaths and so on?
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Well, during the 20 years of the Vietnam war where the total combat
> > >>>>>>> deaths were a paltry 47,434 compared with the over today's 1 million
> > >>>>>>> Covid deaths, nobody was shouting, "OH! Never mind it is only a few if
> > >>>>>>> you calculate the usual/normal/whatever death rates. No, you were
> > >>>>>>> running for the border in terror.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> The numbers of people who emigrated to avoid the draft were
> > >>>>>> much smaller than the mythic version.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Yes, I'm sure that you are correct. I am voicing what the professional
> > >>>>> military believed, or was told. Stories of the "cowards" streaming
> > >>>>> across the border were printed in the Air Force Times (the Air Force
> > >>>>> "in service newspaper").
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> By the way, from all I read after it was all over they didn't
> > >>>>> Immigrate, they simply crossed the border and lived there. Technically
> > >>>>> as illegal immigrants.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> But you ignore my point, while people stand around yammering about
> > >>>>> excess deaths and old folk dying in an attempt to somehow de-demonize
> > >>>>> the Coved, this isn't done in wartime. Nope we build monuments to
> > >>>>> those who died in"the war". But to date, from the records I see, that
> > >>>>> in all the wars, invasions, military intrusions, etc., the U.S. has
> > >>>>> engaged in from 1775 to 2019 deaths in combat amounted to about
> > >>>>> 666,441. While Covid deaths, from 2020 to 2022 amounted to 1,028,741.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> So, one might (with out rationalizing) say that the Covid is/was/may
> > >>>>> be a greater killer by a factor of 1.5 then all the wars the U.S. has
> > >>>>> fought. When will we be building a monument?
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Monuments come after we defeat china. This virus is merely a
> > >>>> first engagement.
> > >>>
> > >>> But, but, but! If you defeat China then your business will, likely,
> > >>> fail as I read that something like 86% of bicycles sold in the U.S.
> > >>> are made in China Can you survive on 14% of your current sales (:-?)
> > >>>
> > >> Embrace change. I recently received Bianchis from the first
> > >> new Bianchi factory built in Italy in decades. Nice product BTW.
> > >>
> > >> Meanwhile the Wuhan bioweapon was a first test run, 'proof
> > >> of concept' as it were.
> > > There was no bioweapon and I've shown the CDC statistics many times. What we've had is a million overall deaths from the lockdowns, Then they INSINUATE that these extra deaths were from covid. From the start of 2020 until now we've had 300,000 excess deaths from Fentanyl alone. Being greatly overweight and drinking to excess has killed hundreds of thousands as well.
> > >
> > > IF you look at the movies you detect something that never occurred before Fauci's false pandemic - EVERYONE IS DRINKING WHISKY and SMOKING which I thought was against the law, Is it any surprise that the group most heavily effected by this propaganda are doing the same thing and dying in droves from it?
> > >
> > Drinking whiskey and smoking against the law? Not hardly.
> >
> > The government could not afford that.
> >
> > https://www.statista.com/statistics/248952/revenues-from-alcohol-tax-and-forecast-in-the-us/
> >
> > https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-soi/histab20.xls
> >
> > Tobacco is row 140, recent years columns AJ AK AL.
> That was badly worded. Showing people smoking in the movies was, I thought, against the law since all of the hulabaloo when it came out that the tobacco industry was paying Hollywood to show everyone smoking.
>
> As for people drinking whisky (almost all of the cases in the movies are straight) Do you suppose it makes you like the movie hero if you drink Scotch on the rocks? I don't know anyone in my extended family that drinks whiskey at all since everyone's great grandfathers were drunks. Wine and Beer certainly but whisky? This is so damned obviously propaganda from the hard alcohol industry that it is sickening and now I'm turning it off when it appears.
>

On Sun, 22 May 2022 10:41:42 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 5/21/2022 8:50 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>> sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> writes:
>>
>>> On 5/20/2022 6:55 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>
>>> <snip>
>>>
>>>> Yet when, in the U.S., Medics suggest the use of proactive devices,
>>>> like masks, for the Covid, people are leaping up and down, waving
>>>> their arms and shouting, "NO", "NO", "NO".
>>>
>>> To be fair, you have a few, very vocal, crazies, protesting the
>>> requirement to wear masks in public, and spreading fake news about
>>> vaccines and the number of Covid deaths.
>>>
>>> Don't let the antics of a few uneducated, far-right, Trump supporters
>>> make you believe that it's anything more than a tiny minority of U.S.
>>> residents that are opposed to using protective devices.
>>>
>>> Even then, they aren't really opposed to masks, it's part of a culture
>>> war: "highly-educated, highly-qualified, medical professionals are
>>> explaining the benefits of masks, but we have a _right_ to be stupid
>>> and believe Donald Trump and Ron DeSantis."
>>
>> They're not really opposed to masks? I think a lot of people really
>> don't like wearing masks, particularly for eight or more hours a day.
>> I'm sure people don't like having to make their two year old children
>> wear masks on long airplane flights. You can argue that their
>> understanding of the facts is wrong, but saying that large numbers are
>> lying about perfectly reasonable preferences just seems off.
>
>There are plenty of people opposed to masks, as in "You can't make me
>wear one." That statement is not usually followed by "for eight hours"
>or "this entire airline flight." They'll say that regarding a five
>minute visit to a convenience store.
>
>It's a bit like attitudes toward washing one's face. Very few people
>love to do it, but few are actually opposed to it. Even most kids do it
>when told to. But some whiny little kids are opposed to washing their
>faces, and throw tantrums when told to do so.

I find the whole thing rather enlightening.

Here, I read that 90+ percent of the residents in Bangkok wear masks
and you certainly cannot enter a Shopping Center, Mall, business
building, or hospital here without a mask. But there is little or no
grumbling about masks and I think I saw one person not wearing a mask
in the last month or that I've been paying attention.

While at the same time I read all the hoop-a-lah from the U.S. about
how terrible mask wearing is, yadda, yadda, yadda. But at the same
time I read the Covid statistics and see that the rate of infection
here (the place with the masks) is 62,905/1million and deaths are
424/1M while in the land of the Free and the Brave (where masks are
condemned) the infection rate is 254,994/1 million and deaths are
3,075/1m.

So, it looks like the chance of contracting the disease is about 4
times higher and the chance of dying is 7 times higher without the
masks...

--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sun, 22 May 2022 10:55:04 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 5/21/2022 7:56 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Sat, 21 May 2022 10:40:42 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 5/20/2022 11:14 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 20 May 2022 21:40:38 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 5/20/2022 8:55 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>> On Fri, 20 May 2022 17:43:58 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 4:59 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 12:12:10 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 10:36 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> "funkma...@hotmail.com" <funkma...@hotmail.com> writes:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/18/2022 11:50 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I remember Kamala Harris during the vice presidential debates saying
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that she would be very reluctant to take a "Trump vaccine", which was
>>>>>>>>>>>>> being developed in an awful hurry without adequate safeguards.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> What she _actually_ said during the debate was, “If the public health
>>>>>>>>>>> professionals, if Dr. Fauci, if the doctors tell us that we should
>>>>>>>>>>> take it, I’ll be the first in line to take it. Absolutely. But if
>>>>>>>>>>> Donald Trump tells us that we should take it, I’m not taking it.â€
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I looked at the transcript, and it is indeed not exactly as remembered.
>>>>>>>>>> On the other hand, had Trump won, he certainly would have told her and
>>>>>>>>>> the rest of us to "take it".
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> She had
>>>>>>>>>>>>> a point there, but somehow after the vaccines rolled out right *after*
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the election, they became "Biden vaccines",
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I must have missed the press releases naming the vaccines "trump" and
>>>>>>>>>>> "biden". Would you have a link to a credible news source that notes
>>>>>>>>>>> those terms specifically?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Those are my terms. I think they fit.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> You might enjoy this editorial from the NY Times, Sept 2020:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/02/opinion/coronavirus-vaccine-trump.html
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It discusses the Gerald Ford vaccine, for swine flu, that was withdrawn
>>>>>>>>>> after causing a few cases of Guillain-Barre syndrome, and compares it to
>>>>>>>>>> Trump's operation warp speed. They make some good points, but after the
>>>>>>>>>> election nothing like this was visible in the mainstream press.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> @WhiteHouse tweeted on 12 May 2022, 2:45 PM:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> When President Biden took office, millions were unemployed and there was
>>>>>>>>>> no vaccine available.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Sure sounds like they're trying to make it the Biden vaccine to me.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and every Democrat jumped on
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the bandwagon to not only take the experimental vaccine, but to try to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> force everyone everywhere to take it.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Hyperbole won't do you any favors. I was extremely hesitant. I waited
>>>>>>>>>>> until july.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> You waited longer than I did. I don't think I would do it again, although
>>>>>>>>>> nothing unusually bad has happened to me. My tinnitus is a lot worse,
>>>>>>>>>> but it's hard to say if that's vaccine related or not. I have not and
>>>>>>>>>> will not take a booster.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The complete revision of ideas about respiratory pandemic handling happened
>>>>>>>>>>>>> during the *last two years*. That was not due to an increase in
>>>>>>>>>>>>> knowledge or wisdom.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> that's a completely ridiculous assertion. The Obama administration
>>>>>>>>>>> implemented policies and created positions to manage pandemics, even
>>>>>>>>>>> going so far as to embed a CDC advisor called "resident adviser to the
>>>>>>>>>>> U.S. Field Epidemiology Training Program in China" in the Chinese
>>>>>>>>>>> CDC. As soon as trump took office he went to work dismantling Obamas
>>>>>>>>>>> pandemic response team and recalled the CDC advisor. If anything, the
>>>>>>>>>>> trump administration dumbed down and ignored what had been learned
>>>>>>>>>>> since the H1N1 outbreak in 2009.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.statnews.com/2020/05/17/the-art-of-the-pandemic-how-donald-trump-walked-the-u-s-into-the-covid-19-era/
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> 2 years is an overstatement, reflecting only the facts on the ground.
>>>>>>>>>> The actual plans go back to Bush the younger's admininistration. 2009
>>>>>>>>>> saw an abortive attempt to put the new plans into practice, but it just
>>>>>>>>>> wasn't scary enough.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I recommend this article for some history on pandemic planning and how
>>>>>>>>>> we got here:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.aier.org/article/the-2006-origins-of-the-lockdown-idea/
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Particularly the linked paper by D A Henderson, the guy most responsible
>>>>>>>>>> for eradicating smallpox:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.552.1109&rep=rep1&type=pdf
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I know, Frank will say he's a winger. Whatever.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> For those of you who have read all the way here, a lagniappe, the Amish
>>>>>>>>>> approach to covid:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1DgWYdukZU
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The Amish make the Swedes look like a nation of Chicken Littles, but
>>>>>>>>>> they don't seem to have any regrets.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Much is unknown and given the political spin on statistical
>>>>>>>>> gathering and analysis (in various countries) probably
>>>>>>>>> unknowable now.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I see that Portugal has among the highest rates of mRNA shots:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://www.statista.com/statistics/1196071/covid-19-vaccination-rate-in-europe-by-country/
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> and also among the highest rate of reinfections. hmmm.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://ourworldindata.org/covid-cases
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yes, reinfections. But getting reinfected is not that bad. You stay home from work one day and feel tired for awhile. Then you are good to go again. With no hospital stay in the ICU and no breathing tube and no death. So minimal to no harm being reinfected. Not many people have said the vaccine will prevent ALL infections. The vaccine just almost minimizes death and makes infections somewhat immaterial. Kind of like a pitcher and batter. He is throwing a fastball at 90 mph. It can hit you in the thigh, and leave a bruise. Or it can hit you in the head and leave you brain damaged. Seems to me getting the vaccine and getting hit in the thigh is better than not getting the vaccine and getting hit in the head. And yes the pitch/virus does not hit everyone. Sometimes the pitcher throws and you dive on the ground and the ball/virus goes over your head and misses you.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Then again, in direct conflict with the modern meaning of
>>>>>>> the term 'vaccine' until two years ago, the mRNA shot
>>>>>>> doesn't prevent reinfection or much more significantly,
>>>>>>> doesn't keep that person from spreading it to others.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I agree that lower death rates for second/ third/ fourth
>>>>>>> infections is a good thing. Then again it's 'lower' not
>>>>>>> zero. Continued contraction and continuing contagion are
>>>>>>> unhelpful.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have to once more toss in the shameful history of AIDS and
>>>>>>> CDC under Drs Gallo and Fauci. Great resources in money,
>>>>>>> time and effort were pissed away on vaccine research for 35
>>>>>>> years or so with no result. Early advocates of traditional
>>>>>>> medical method- develop/discover therapeutics to prevent
>>>>>>> death and improve health of the infected- were shouted down,
>>>>>>> hounded, belittled. Yet here we are today where those evil
>>>>>>> pharmaceutical organizations supply many and various
>>>>>>> effective therapies such that even the poor in undeveloped
>>>>>>> countries live out their lives for pennies per week of
>>>>>>> treatment. Sound familiar? It's the same playbook and
>>>>>>> written by at least some of the same people.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> BUT... what is the alternate? Just ignore it and hope it goes away?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ignoring the Covid and looking at HIV only, Thailand had a HIV rate of
>>>>>> over 2% among pregnant women and over 4% among Thai
>>>>>> military recruits. Without the use of a vaccine the rates have been
>>>>>> reduced to 0.6% in pregnant women and military recruits. Largely
>>>>>> through education and protective "devices".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yet when, in the U.S., Medics suggest the use of proactive devices,
>>>>>> like masks, for the Covid, people are leaping up and down, waving
>>>>>> their arms and shouting, "NO", "NO", "NO".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And yet, of the larger countries, say 250 million or larger population
>>>>>> the U.S. is leading the pack in total cases and total deaths.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As for calculating normal deaths and excess deaths and so on?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well, during the 20 years of the Vietnam war where the total combat
>>>>>> deaths were a paltry 47,434 compared with the over today's 1 million
>>>>>> Covid deaths, nobody was shouting, "OH! Never mind it is only a few if
>>>>>> you calculate the usual/normal/whatever death rates. No, you were
>>>>>> running for the border in terror.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The numbers of people who emigrated to avoid the draft were
>>>>> much smaller than the mythic version.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, I'm sure that you are correct. I am voicing what the professional
>>>> military believed, or was told. Stories of the "cowards" streaming
>>>> across the border were printed in the Air Force Times (the Air Force
>>>> "in service newspaper").
>>>>
>>>> By the way, from all I read after it was all over they didn't
>>>> Immigrate, they simply crossed the border and lived there. Technically
>>>> as illegal immigrants.
>>>>
>>>> But you ignore my point, while people stand around yammering about
>>>> excess deaths and old folk dying in an attempt to somehow de-demonize
>>>> the Coved, this isn't done in wartime. Nope we build monuments to
>>>> those who died in"the war". But to date, from the records I see, that
>>>> in all the wars, invasions, military intrusions, etc., the U.S. has
>>>> engaged in from 1775 to 2019 deaths in combat amounted to about
>>>> 666,441. While Covid deaths, from 2020 to 2022 amounted to 1,028,741.
>>>>
>>>> So, one might (with out rationalizing) say that the Covid is/was/may
>>>> be a greater killer by a factor of 1.5 then all the wars the U.S. has
>>>> fought. When will we be building a monument?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Monuments come after we defeat china. This virus is merely a
>>> first engagement.
>>
>> But, but, but! If you defeat China then your business will, likely,
>> fail as I read that something like 86% of bicycles sold in the U.S.
>> are made in China Can you survive on 14% of your current sales (:-?)
>>
>
>Embrace change. I recently received Bianchis from the first
>new Bianchi factory built in Italy in decades. Nice product BTW.
>
>Meanwhile the Wuhan bioweapon was a first test run, 'proof
>of concept' as it were.

On Sun, 22 May 2022 10:46:09 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 5/21/2022 5:42 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
>> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 10:40:47 AM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 5/20/2022 11:14 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 20 May 2022 21:40:38 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 5/20/2022 8:55 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>> On Fri, 20 May 2022 17:43:58 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 4:59 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 12:12:10 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 10:36 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> "funkma...@hotmail.com" <funkma...@hotmail.com> writes:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/18/2022 11:50 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I remember Kamala Harris during the vice presidential debates saying
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that she would be very reluctant to take a "Trump vaccine", which was
>>>>>>>>>>>>> being developed in an awful hurry without adequate safeguards.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> What she _actually_ said during the debate was, “If the public health
>>>>>>>>>>> professionals, if Dr. Fauci, if the doctors tell us that we should
>>>>>>>>>>> take it, I’ll be the first in line to take it. Absolutely. But if
>>>>>>>>>>> Donald Trump tells us that we should take it, I’m not taking it.â€
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I looked at the transcript, and it is indeed not exactly as remembered.
>>>>>>>>>> On the other hand, had Trump won, he certainly would have told her and
>>>>>>>>>> the rest of us to "take it".
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> She had
>>>>>>>>>>>>> a point there, but somehow after the vaccines rolled out right *after*
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the election, they became "Biden vaccines",
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I must have missed the press releases naming the vaccines "trump" and
>>>>>>>>>>> "biden". Would you have a link to a credible news source that notes
>>>>>>>>>>> those terms specifically?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Those are my terms. I think they fit.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> You might enjoy this editorial from the NY Times, Sept 2020:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/02/opinion/coronavirus-vaccine-trump.html
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It discusses the Gerald Ford vaccine, for swine flu, that was withdrawn
>>>>>>>>>> after causing a few cases of Guillain-Barre syndrome, and compares it to
>>>>>>>>>> Trump's operation warp speed. They make some good points, but after the
>>>>>>>>>> election nothing like this was visible in the mainstream press.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> @WhiteHouse tweeted on 12 May 2022, 2:45 PM:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> When President Biden took office, millions were unemployed and there was
>>>>>>>>>> no vaccine available.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Sure sounds like they're trying to make it the Biden vaccine to me.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and every Democrat jumped on
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the bandwagon to not only take the experimental vaccine, but to try to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> force everyone everywhere to take it.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Hyperbole won't do you any favors. I was extremely hesitant. I waited
>>>>>>>>>>> until july.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> You waited longer than I did. I don't think I would do it again, although
>>>>>>>>>> nothing unusually bad has happened to me. My tinnitus is a lot worse,
>>>>>>>>>> but it's hard to say if that's vaccine related or not. I have not and
>>>>>>>>>> will not take a booster.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The complete revision of ideas about respiratory pandemic handling happened
>>>>>>>>>>>>> during the *last two years*. That was not due to an increase in
>>>>>>>>>>>>> knowledge or wisdom.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> that's a completely ridiculous assertion. The Obama administration
>>>>>>>>>>> implemented policies and created positions to manage pandemics, even
>>>>>>>>>>> going so far as to embed a CDC advisor called "resident adviser to the
>>>>>>>>>>> U.S. Field Epidemiology Training Program in China" in the Chinese
>>>>>>>>>>> CDC. As soon as trump took office he went to work dismantling Obamas
>>>>>>>>>>> pandemic response team and recalled the CDC advisor. If anything, the
>>>>>>>>>>> trump administration dumbed down and ignored what had been learned
>>>>>>>>>>> since the H1N1 outbreak in 2009.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.statnews.com/2020/05/17/the-art-of-the-pandemic-how-donald-trump-walked-the-u-s-into-the-covid-19-era/
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> 2 years is an overstatement, reflecting only the facts on the ground.
>>>>>>>>>> The actual plans go back to Bush the younger's admininistration. 2009
>>>>>>>>>> saw an abortive attempt to put the new plans into practice, but it just
>>>>>>>>>> wasn't scary enough.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I recommend this article for some history on pandemic planning and how
>>>>>>>>>> we got here:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.aier.org/article/the-2006-origins-of-the-lockdown-idea/
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Particularly the linked paper by D A Henderson, the guy most responsible
>>>>>>>>>> for eradicating smallpox:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.552.1109&rep=rep1&type=pdf
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I know, Frank will say he's a winger. Whatever.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> For those of you who have read all the way here, a lagniappe, the Amish
>>>>>>>>>> approach to covid:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1DgWYdukZU
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The Amish make the Swedes look like a nation of Chicken Littles, but
>>>>>>>>>> they don't seem to have any regrets.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Much is unknown and given the political spin on statistical
>>>>>>>>> gathering and analysis (in various countries) probably
>>>>>>>>> unknowable now.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I see that Portugal has among the highest rates of mRNA shots:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://www.statista.com/statistics/1196071/covid-19-vaccination-rate-in-europe-by-country/
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> and also among the highest rate of reinfections. hmmm.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://ourworldindata.org/covid-cases
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yes, reinfections. But getting reinfected is not that bad. You stay home from work one day and feel tired for awhile. Then you are good to go again. With no hospital stay in the ICU and no breathing tube and no death. So minimal to no harm being reinfected. Not many people have said the vaccine will prevent ALL infections. The vaccine just almost minimizes death and makes infections somewhat immaterial. Kind of like a pitcher and batter. He is throwing a fastball at 90 mph. It can hit you in the thigh, and leave a bruise. Or it can hit you in the head and leave you brain damaged. Seems to me getting the vaccine and getting hit in the thigh is better than not getting the vaccine and getting hit in the head. And yes the pitch/virus does not hit everyone. Sometimes the pitcher throws and you dive on the ground and the ball/virus goes over your head and misses you.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Then again, in direct conflict with the modern meaning of
>>>>>>> the term 'vaccine' until two years ago, the mRNA shot
>>>>>>> doesn't prevent reinfection or much more significantly,
>>>>>>> doesn't keep that person from spreading it to others.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I agree that lower death rates for second/ third/ fourth
>>>>>>> infections is a good thing. Then again it's 'lower' not
>>>>>>> zero. Continued contraction and continuing contagion are
>>>>>>> unhelpful.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have to once more toss in the shameful history of AIDS and
>>>>>>> CDC under Drs Gallo and Fauci. Great resources in money,
>>>>>>> time and effort were pissed away on vaccine research for 35
>>>>>>> years or so with no result. Early advocates of traditional
>>>>>>> medical method- develop/discover therapeutics to prevent
>>>>>>> death and improve health of the infected- were shouted down,
>>>>>>> hounded, belittled. Yet here we are today where those evil
>>>>>>> pharmaceutical organizations supply many and various
>>>>>>> effective therapies such that even the poor in undeveloped
>>>>>>> countries live out their lives for pennies per week of
>>>>>>> treatment. Sound familiar? It's the same playbook and
>>>>>>> written by at least some of the same people.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> BUT... what is the alternate? Just ignore it and hope it goes away?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ignoring the Covid and looking at HIV only, Thailand had a HIV rate of
>>>>>> over 2% among pregnant women and over 4% among Thai
>>>>>> military recruits. Without the use of a vaccine the rates have been
>>>>>> reduced to 0.6% in pregnant women and military recruits. Largely
>>>>>> through education and protective "devices".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yet when, in the U.S., Medics suggest the use of proactive devices,
>>>>>> like masks, for the Covid, people are leaping up and down, waving
>>>>>> their arms and shouting, "NO", "NO", "NO".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And yet, of the larger countries, say 250 million or larger population
>>>>>> the U.S. is leading the pack in total cases and total deaths.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As for calculating normal deaths and excess deaths and so on?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well, during the 20 years of the Vietnam war where the total combat
>>>>>> deaths were a paltry 47,434 compared with the over today's 1 million
>>>>>> Covid deaths, nobody was shouting, "OH! Never mind it is only a few if
>>>>>> you calculate the usual/normal/whatever death rates. No, you were
>>>>>> running for the border in terror.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The numbers of people who emigrated to avoid the draft were
>>>>> much smaller than the mythic version.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, I'm sure that you are correct. I am voicing what the professional
>>>> military believed, or was told. Stories of the "cowards" streaming
>>>> across the border were printed in the Air Force Times (the Air Force
>>>> "in service newspaper").
>>>>
>>>> By the way, from all I read after it was all over they didn't
>>>> Immigrate, they simply crossed the border and lived there. Technically
>>>> as illegal immigrants.
>>>>
>>>> But you ignore my point, while people stand around yammering about
>>>> excess deaths and old folk dying in an attempt to somehow de-demonize
>>>> the Coved, this isn't done in wartime. Nope we build monuments to
>>>> those who died in"the war". But to date, from the records I see, that
>>>> in all the wars, invasions, military intrusions, etc., the U.S. has
>>>> engaged in from 1775 to 2019 deaths in combat amounted to about
>>>> 666,441. While Covid deaths, from 2020 to 2022 amounted to 1,028,741.
>>>>
>>>> So, one might (with out rationalizing) say that the Covid is/was/may
>>>> be a greater killer by a factor of 1.5 then all the wars the U.S. has
>>>> fought. When will we be building a monument?
>>>>
>>> Monuments come after we defeat china. This virus is merely a
>>> first engagement.
>>> --
>>> Andrew Muzi
>>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
>>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>>
>> Defeat China? I am far more concerned about stopping the deaths from Covid-19. And eliminating the economic effects Covid has caused throughout the world. I am aware Covid started in China. And spread worldwide. Was it intentional? Maybe, maybe not. I'd go for the not. The leaders in China have some competent advisors. They would tell the leaders that destroying the world's economy is bad for China. No matter how much harm it does to everyone else, China will also suffer. China is interconnected with the world economically. Very few spouses commit spousal murder by pulling the spouse into a closet and setting off a hand grenade. Its not much benefit to kill yourself.
>>
>> As far as first engagement. Hopefully the world has learned from Covid. And will be better prepared for the next time something similar happens. But I'm not too hopeful a large portion of the USA has learned anything at all. So we would likely have a repeat exactly as bad the next time around. As for engaging China on other fronts. Such as the militarization of the South China Sea, and human rights, and trading, those conflicts will continue. And I am hopeful a good outcome can be achieved. Good for both sides and everyone.
>>
>> Unlike the Republicans who assume everything is a zero sum game. If you gain, then I must lose, So that is evil. I believe we all can gain together. Likely different amounts of gain. But all pluses for everyone. No one has to lose.
>>
>
>You have that backwards IMHO.
>
>Statists believe in the socialist version of 'sharing',
>i.e., forcibly redistributing limited resources all while
>suppressing innovation, efficiency and growth. Classic
>'zero-sum' outlook.
>
>Classic liberals (now called conservatives) are more with Mr
>Deng, "Let a thousand flowers bloom". Liberty with less
>restriction makes everyone more prosperous and life more
>meaningful for most.