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tech / rec.crafts.metalworking / steel for rollers in a small benchtop rolling mill?

SubjectAuthor
* steel for rollers in a small benchtop rolling mill?pyotr filipivich
+* Re: steel for rollers in a small benchtop rolling mill?Bob La Londe
|+* Re: steel for rollers in a small benchtop rolling mill?Bob La Londe
||+- Re: steel for rollers in a small benchtop rolling mill?Jim Wilkins
||`* Re: steel for rollers in a small benchtop rolling mill?pyotr filipivich
|| `* Re: steel for rollers in a small benchtop rolling mill?Bob La Londe
||  +- Re: steel for rollers in a small benchtop rolling mill?Jim Wilkins
||  `* Re: steel for rollers in a small benchtop rolling mill?pyotr filipivich
||   `* Re: steel for rollers in a small benchtop rolling mill?Bob La Londe
||    `* Re: steel for rollers in a small benchtop rolling mill?pyotr filipivich
||     `- Re: steel for rollers in a small benchtop rolling mill?Jim Wilkins
|+* Re: steel for rollers in a small benchtop rolling mill?Jim Wilkins
||+* Re: steel for rollers in a small benchtop rolling mill?Bob La Londe
|||`* Re: steel for rollers in a small benchtop rolling mill?Jim Wilkins
||| `* Grinding & Tool Making - WAS: steel for rollers in a small bench topBob La Londe
|||  `- Re: Grinding & Tool Making - WAS: steel for rollers in a small bench top rollingJim Wilkins
||`* Re: steel for rollers in a small benchtop rolling mill?pyotr filipivich
|| `* Re: steel for rollers in a small benchtop rolling mill?Jim Wilkins
||  `* Re: steel for rollers in a small benchtop rolling mill?Jim Wilkins
||   `- Re: steel for rollers in a small benchtop rolling mill?pyotr filipivich
|`* Re: steel for rollers in a small benchtop rolling mill?pyotr filipivich
| `* Re: steel for rollers in a small benchtop rolling mill?Bob La Londe
|  `* Re: steel for rollers in a small benchtop rolling mill?pyotr filipivich
|   `* Re: steel for rollers in a small benchtop rolling mill?Bob La Londe
|    +- Re: steel for rollers in a small benchtop rolling mill?Jim Wilkins
|    `- Re: steel for rollers in a small benchtop rolling mill?pyotr filipivich
`* Round two: Re: steel for rollers in a small benchtop rolling mill?pyotr filipivich
 `* Re: Round two: Re: steel for rollers in a small benchtop rollingDavid Billington
  `* Re: Round two: Re: steel for rollers in a small benchtop rolling mill?pyotr filipivich
   `* Re: Round two: Re: steel for rollers in a small benchtop rollingDavid Billington
    +* Re: Round two: Re: steel for rollers in a small benchtop rolling mill?Jim Wilkins
    |`* Re: Round two: Re: steel for rollers in a small benchtop rolling mill?pyotr filipivich
    | `* Re: Round two: Re: steel for rollers in a small benchtop rolling mill?Jim Wilkins
    |  `* Re: Round two: Re: steel for rollers in a small benchtop rollingLeon Fisk
    |   `* Re: Round two: Re: steel for rollers in a small benchtop rolling mill?Jim Wilkins
    |    `* Re: Round two: Re: steel for rollers in a small benchtop rollingLeon Fisk
    |     `* Re: Round two: Re: steel for rollers in a small benchtop rolling mill?Jim Wilkins
    |      `- Re: Round two: Re: steel for rollers in a small benchtop rollingLeon Fisk
    `- Re: Round two: Re: steel for rollers in a small benchtop rolling mill?pyotr filipivich

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steel for rollers in a small benchtop rolling mill?

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From: pha...@mindspring.com (pyotr filipivich)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: steel for rollers in a small benchtop rolling mill?
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2022 15:48:50 -0700
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 by: pyotr filipivich - Wed, 16 Mar 2022 22:48 UTC

Greetings

I have a small bench top rolling mill. Works fin as long as I
don't over do it.
But, the rollers are flat. I'd like to put a custom pattern (or
two) on thin brass / copper stock which will require something.
Option A is to punch the pattern into a piece of flat steel and
roll it through. Not a bad idea, but kind of limited to lengths of
out put. (Some of this will be for decorating wooden boxes).
Plan B would be to put the pattern into a roller so I can just
crank out as many feet as I have material. "It will all get used
sometime."
The issue for custom rollers is of course, what is the best grade
of steel for the rollers, and heat treating it after engraving. (Hmmm
'I just had an idea forming in my brain...')

The rollers are going to be about 2 to 3 inches long and about
"this" diameter. (I really should unpack it and see what the actual
sizes are...)

Now, where I'm going to find the machine to do this is a complete
second question.

tschus
pyotr
--
pyotr filipivich.
Discussing the decline in the US's tech edge, James Niccol once wrote
"It used to be that the USA was pretty good at producing stuff teenaged
boys could lose a finger or two playing with."

Re: steel for rollers in a small benchtop rolling mill?

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From: non...@none.com99 (Bob La Londe)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: steel for rollers in a small benchtop rolling mill?
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2022 18:00:39 -0700
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 by: Bob La Londe - Thu, 17 Mar 2022 01:00 UTC

On 3/16/2022 3:48 PM, pyotr filipivich wrote:
> Greetings
>
> I have a small bench top rolling mill. Works fin as long as I
> don't over do it.
> But, the rollers are flat. I'd like to put a custom pattern (or
> two) on thin brass / copper stock which will require something.
> Option A is to punch the pattern into a piece of flat steel and
> roll it through. Not a bad idea, but kind of limited to lengths of
> out put. (Some of this will be for decorating wooden boxes).
> Plan B would be to put the pattern into a roller so I can just
> crank out as many feet as I have material. "It will all get used
> sometime."
> The issue for custom rollers is of course, what is the best grade
> of steel for the rollers, and heat treating it after engraving. (Hmmm
> 'I just had an idea forming in my brain...')
>
> The rollers are going to be about 2 to 3 inches long and about
> "this" diameter. (I really should unpack it and see what the actual
> sizes are...)
>
> Now, where I'm going to find the machine to do this is a complete
> second question.
>
> tschus
> pyotr

Realistically you have two choices. A CNC 4th axis mill, or hand
engrave it. You might be able to do simple knurl patterns with a lathe,
but I don't think that's really what you are looking for.

I am sure somebody has better options, but my hammer is a CNC mill with
a 4th axis rotab and center. Your job looks like a nail to me.

I expect OD need not be exact since your machine has to be adjustable.
You would just need to get it in the right range.

As to metal choice. The best option would be a good tough tool steel
for longest life. S7 maybe, but 4140 HT (RC30(+/-)ish) would last a
while for softer metal rolling, and it can be hardened and tempered in
the RC50+ range. It would last a modestly long while, and its easier to
work with in my opinion than some of the really tough tool steels.

Of course if you are trying to roll form a hard metal all bets are off.

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Re: steel for rollers in a small benchtop rolling mill?

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From: non...@none.com99 (Bob La Londe)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: steel for rollers in a small benchtop rolling mill?
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 by: Bob La Londe - Thu, 17 Mar 2022 01:03 UTC

On 3/16/2022 6:00 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
> On 3/16/2022 3:48 PM, pyotr filipivich wrote:
>> Greetings
>>
>>     I have a small bench top rolling mill.  Works fin as long as I
>> don't over do it.
>>     But, the rollers are flat.  I'd like to put a custom pattern (or
>> two) on thin brass / copper stock which will require something.
>>     Option A is to punch the pattern into a piece of flat steel and
>> roll it through.  Not a bad idea, but kind of limited to lengths of
>> out put.  (Some of this will be for decorating wooden boxes).
>>     Plan B would be to put the pattern into a roller so I can just
>> crank out as many feet as I have material.  "It will all get used
>> sometime."
>>     The issue for custom rollers is of course, what is the best grade
>> of steel for the rollers, and heat treating it after engraving. (Hmmm
>> 'I just had an idea forming in my brain...')
>>
>>     The rollers are going to be about 2 to 3 inches long and about
>> "this" diameter.  (I really should unpack it and see what the actual
>> sizes are...)
>>
>>     Now, where I'm going to find the machine to do this is a complete
>> second question.
>>
>> tschus
>> pyotr
>
>
> Realistically you have two choices.  A CNC 4th axis mill, or hand
> engrave it.  You might be able to do simple knurl patterns with a lathe,
> but I don't think that's really what you are looking for.
>
> I am sure somebody has better options, but my hammer is a CNC mill with
> a 4th axis rotab and center.  Your job looks like a nail to me.
>
> I expect OD need not be exact since your machine has to be adjustable.
> You would just need to get it in the right range.
>
> As to metal choice.  The best option would be a good tough tool steel
> for longest life.  S7 maybe, but 4140 HT (RC30(+/-)ish) would last a
> while for softer metal rolling, and it can be hardened and tempered in
> the RC50+ range.  It would last a modestly long while, and its easier to
> work with in my opinion than some of the really tough tool steels.
>
> Of course if you are trying to roll form a hard metal all bets are off.
>
>
>
>
>

Did you ask this in another group? Facebook? Home Shop Machinist?

I could have sworn I saw nearly this same question somewhere else very
recently.

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From: muratla...@gmail.com (Jim Wilkins)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: steel for rollers in a small benchtop rolling mill?
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2022 21:50:16 -0400
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 by: Jim Wilkins - Thu, 17 Mar 2022 01:50 UTC

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:t0u17n$e3l$1@dont-email.me...

4140 HT (RC30(+/-)ish) would last a
while for softer metal rolling, and it can be hardened and tempered in
the RC50+ range. It would last a modestly long while, and its easier to
work with in my opinion than some of the really tough tool steels.

---------------------

4140 HT is easy enough to machine with HSS. Do you have hands-on experience
hardening and tempering it?

One night in TIG class I got frustrated with burn-through and took to piling
up beads as sculpture and text. It worked better than I expected and with a
little practice I could make smooth rounded raised lines. Someone with more
artistic skill might be able to create raised rolling dies that way. I think
the edges could be refined with a curved riffling file with a safe edge
ground on the bottom.

Your customer Keith Snyder says hi.

jsw

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From: muratla...@gmail.com (Jim Wilkins)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: steel for rollers in a small benchtop rolling mill?
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 by: Jim Wilkins - Thu, 17 Mar 2022 01:53 UTC

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:t0u1c8$eii$1@dont-email.me...

Did you ask this in another group? Facebook? Home Shop Machinist?

I could have sworn I saw nearly this same question somewhere else very
recently.

The thread was "rolling mills, custom patterns and making wire into strips"

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Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: steel for rollers in a small benchtop rolling mill?
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 by: Bob La Londe - Thu, 17 Mar 2022 03:11 UTC

On 3/16/2022 6:50 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
> "Bob La Londe"  wrote in message news:t0u17n$e3l$1@dont-email.me...
>
> 4140 HT (RC30(+/-)ish) would last a
> while for softer metal rolling, and it can be hardened and tempered in
> the RC50+ range.  It would last a modestly long while, and its easier to
> work with in my opinion than some of the really tough tool steels.
>
> ---------------------
>
> 4140 HT is easy enough to machine with HSS.

I quit using HSS except when I need a tool I can't buy or make out of
carbide. I recently made a flexure out of 4140HT tool (I have a lot of
it left over from a job) to hold a insert type parting blade. I fought
with it for a while with some HSS tooling, and then I said screw this
SHIT (yes I said SHIT in all caps, picked up an Altin Coated carbide
mill and just ripped through it with a great finish. I was almost
maxing out the power feed and still getting a great finish. Same thing
on the lathe. If I don't have a carbide tool the right geometry I make
one. Everything cuts better.

> Do you have hands-on
> experience hardening and tempering it?

Nothing that required a high precision final dimension. Most folks will
tell you to quench in oil, but thick heavy pieces can quench in water.
Then I just toss it in the toaster over I use for powder coating small
parts and let it bake for a while. I don't recall the temperature or
time. I always look it up. One thing I did find s that its hard (for
me anyway) to surface grind 4140 that has any level or not annealed
hardness and not have it warp and twist. I really need to setup coolant
on my surface grinder and see if that helps.

> One night in TIG class I got frustrated with burn-through and took to
> piling up beads as sculpture and text. It worked better than I expected
> and with a little practice I could make smooth rounded raised lines.
> Someone with more artistic skill might be able to create raised rolling
> dies that way. I think the edges could be refined with a curved riffling
> file with a safe edge ground on the bottom.

Now that's an interesting thought. Most of your ER70S wire is harder
than mild steel, and if you wanted to get crazy maybe you could use hard
facing wire.

> Your customer Keith Snyder says hi.

Mine? I just took a quick look and I see several Keiths, but no
Snyders. Back when I was contracting I had a few Snyder's as customers,
but I quit contracting December 31st 2016. I'd have to go fire up the
old computer up front to look anybody up from back then. Haven't turned
that computer on in nearly five years. Not since I filed my last income
taxes on that business.
Now there is a thing that sometimes (often) happens. I get people who
have gotten frustrated trying to contact a mold maker by the name of
Shawn Collins. They want him to do a custom job or modify a stock
design, and it turns out for some stupid reason they think Bob La Londe
sounds just like Shawn Collins. They will swear they have a bunch of
molds I made. One guy on Facebook the other day showed me pictures. I
didn't make a single one of the molds he showed me. It happens at least
once or twice a week. I've had it happen several times in a day. One
day I was out fishing with a buddy of mine telling him about it and my
cell phone rang. It took me five minutes to get the guy on the phone to
stop talking long enough for me to tell him I didn't make the mold he
was asking about. Back in the 80s Rick Springfield wrote the song
"Bruce." I understand completely.

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Re: steel for rollers in a small benchtop rolling mill?

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From: muratla...@gmail.com (Jim Wilkins)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: steel for rollers in a small benchtop rolling mill?
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2022 08:36:52 -0400
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 by: Jim Wilkins - Thu, 17 Mar 2022 12:36 UTC

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:t0u8t5$v5n$1@dont-email.me...

On 3/16/2022 6:50 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
> "Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:t0u17n$e3l$1@dont-email.me...

> 4140 HT is easy enough to machine with HSS.

I quit using HSS except when I need a tool I can't buy or make out of
carbide. I recently made a flexure out of 4140HT tool (I have a lot of
it left over from a job) to hold a insert type parting blade. I fought
with it for a while with some HSS tooling, and then I said screw this
SHIT (yes I said SHIT in all caps, picked up an Altin Coated carbide
mill and just ripped through it with a great finish. I was almost
maxing out the power feed and still getting a great finish. Same thing
on the lathe. If I don't have a carbide tool the right geometry I make
one. Everything cuts better.

-----------------------
I can mill with carbide but it chips too easily on my worn 1965 lathe, and I
can't resharpen it on my surface grinder as easily as HSS. HSS is still
practical for one-off jobs on small manual machine tools, i.e home hobby
shops. When I suggest HSS I imply that I've found it an acceptable minimum
to cut steel of some hardness, not that it's better than carbide. I make
cutters from hardened tool steel too, but the difficulty of correctly
tempering it and low allowable cutting rate mean I don't usually suggest it.
-----------------------

> Do you have hands-on experience hardening and tempering it?

Nothing that required a high precision final dimension. Most folks will
tell you to quench in oil, but thick heavy pieces can quench in water.
Then I just toss it in the toaster over I use for powder coating small
parts and let it bake for a while.

-----------------------
That's what the blacksmith/knife maker told me to do. I had acquired a small
industrial tube oven so I set it up with exhaust pipe tube and a
thermocouple heat controller to temper with better control, at the 350-375F
he recommended for 5160 car spring steel. The color is a very faint yellow.
-----------------------

I don't recall the temperature or
time. I always look it up. One thing I did find s that its hard (for
me anyway) to surface grind 4140 that has any level or not annealed
hardness and not have it warp and twist. I really need to setup coolant
on my surface grinder and see if that helps.

-----------------------
Thanks, that is useful advice.
-----------------------

> One night in TIG class I got frustrated with burn-through and took to
> piling up beads as sculpture and text. It worked better than I expected
> and with a little practice I could make smooth rounded raised lines.
> Someone with more artistic skill might be able to create raised rolling
> dies that way. I think the edges could be refined with a curved riffling
> file with a safe edge ground on the bottom.

Now that's an interesting thought. Most of your ER70S wire is harder
than mild steel, and if you wanted to get crazy maybe you could use hard
facing wire.

-----------------------
I inherited a splitting maul that had been used to smooth an uneven granite
step and rebuilt the missing cutting edge with either ER70S or 7014 (?).
As-welded it was a good fileable hardness for a wood cutting impact tool.
Damaging the maul was preferable to refusing grandmother's demands.
-----------------------

> Your customer Keith Snyder says hi.

-----------------------
In southern NH. I may have mis-remembered the last name. He spoke very
highly of your fishing lure molds but said the soft rubber compound he uses
wouldn't do what I want. He works in a small hardware store that survived
because it carries odd stuff the big boxes don't.
-----------------------

Grinding & Tool Making - WAS: steel for rollers in a small bench top rolling mill?

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From: non...@none.com99 (Bob La Londe)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Grinding & Tool Making - WAS: steel for rollers in a small bench top
rolling mill?
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 by: Bob La Londe - Thu, 17 Mar 2022 16:07 UTC

On 3/17/2022 5:36 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
> "Bob La Londe"  wrote in message news:t0u8t5$v5n$1@dont-email.me...
>
> On 3/16/2022 6:50 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
>> "Bob La Londe"  wrote in message news:t0u17n$e3l$1@dont-email.me...
>
>> 4140 HT is easy enough to machine with HSS.
>
> I quit using HSS except when I need a tool I can't buy or make out of
> carbide.  I recently made a flexure out of 4140HT tool (I have a lot of
> it left over from a job) to hold a insert type parting blade.  I fought
> with it for a while with some HSS tooling, and then I said screw this
> SHIT (yes I said SHIT in all caps, picked up an Altin Coated carbide
> mill and just ripped through it with a great finish.  I was almost
> maxing out the power feed and still getting a great finish.  Same thing
> on the lathe.  If I don't have a carbide tool the right geometry I make
> one.  Everything cuts better.
>
> -----------------------
> I can mill with carbide but it chips too easily on my worn 1965 lathe,
> and I can't resharpen it on my surface grinder as easily as HSS. HSS is
> still practical for one-off jobs on small manual machine tools, i.e home
> hobby shops. When I suggest HSS I imply that I've found it an acceptable
> minimum to cut steel of some hardness, not that it's better than
> carbide. I make cutters from hardened tool steel too, but the difficulty
> of correctly tempering it and low allowable cutting rate mean I don't
> usually suggest it.
> -----------------------

Sorry , that was a bit harsh, but I get really tired of the number of
people telling folks to use HSS or that HSS is better. About the only
thing I really found HSS was better at was harsh interrupted turning.
It will hammer away without shattering. HSS is relatively cheap and
comes in convenient blanks for making tools, but I can touch up a piece
of carbide on the diamond wheel, and touch up the edge on diamond bench
stone. I can make good HSS tools, but even back when I was still using
the mini lathe I found I liked carbide inserts better. I just had to
use the smallest ones. Sure you can't really use their full capability,
but they do work. I did spend a lot of time chasing parts with HSS,
because everybody said so...

As to grinding. I kind of wished I had not wasted my money on the
surface grinder. Sure I use it occasionally, but the D-Bit style Tool &
Cutter has proven to be a far more useful piece of machinery and it cost
less. I should have bought it first. Mine came with a white Aluminum
oxide cup wheel and a diamond cup wheel. It uses 5C collets and has a
couple other attachments. It didn't come with a tracer for sharpening
helix tools, but I could make one. Its not like a wire finger is a big
deal. Since I do mostly CNC work day to day I don't want a bunch of
normal looking resharpened end mills of unknown size laying around
anyway. The one thing I picked up to go with it was a couple thin
diamond wheels for slicing off end mills. It serves two purposes. I
can turn a mill with broken tips into a usable side mill very quickly.
Just lop off the end (at a slight angle to relieve the bottom). No more
end cutting capability, but its still useful. The other is simply
cutting off the flutes quickly to make a blank. Some guys leave the
flutes on and just make their tool on the other end, but I am paranoid
about damaging tool holders and collets with those flutes still on the
tool. One tip I picked up from Steffan Gottswinter's videos was that
while it is a semi precision grinding tool you can free hand tiny little
features with it too. Recently when making a ten degree dovetail cutter
I put a very slight radius on the tip free hand.

>
>> Your customer Keith Snyder says hi.
>
> -----------------------
> In southern NH. I may have mis-remembered the last name. He spoke very
> highly of your fishing lure molds but said the soft rubber compound he
> uses wouldn't do what I want. He works in a small hardware store that
> survived because it carries odd stuff the big boxes don't.
> -----------------------
>

I did recently (few months ago) make a wrench for a guy who owns a
hardware store. I don't recall his name. Of course I don't remember
the name (off hand) of everybody who ever bought a mold, but usually
they sound familiar. It takes seconds to do an email search back to as
far as mid 2017.

--
Bob La Londe
Proffessional Hack, Hobbyist, Wannabe, Shade Tree, Button Pushing, Not a
real machinist

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

Re: Grinding & Tool Making - WAS: steel for rollers in a small bench top rolling mill?

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From: muratla...@gmail.com (Jim Wilkins)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: Grinding & Tool Making - WAS: steel for rollers in a small bench top rolling mill?
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 by: Jim Wilkins - Thu, 17 Mar 2022 17:15 UTC

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:t0vmcr$pc0$1@dont-email.me...

As to grinding. I kind of wished I had not wasted my money on the
surface grinder. Sure I use it occasionally, but the D-Bit style Tool &
Cutter has proven to be a far more useful piece of machinery and it cost
less. I should have bought it first. Mine came with a white Aluminum
oxide cup wheel and a diamond cup wheel. It uses 5C collets and has a
couple other attachments. It didn't come with a tracer for sharpening
helix tools, but I could make one. Its not like a wire finger is a big
deal. Since I do mostly CNC work day to day I don't want a bunch of
normal looking resharpened end mills of unknown size laying around
anyway. The one thing I picked up to go with it was a couple thin
diamond wheels for slicing off end mills. It serves two purposes. I
can turn a mill with broken tips into a usable side mill very quickly.
Just lop off the end (at a slight angle to relieve the bottom). No more
end cutting capability, but its still useful. The other is simply
cutting off the flutes quickly to make a blank. Some guys leave the
flutes on and just make their tool on the other end, but I am paranoid
about damaging tool holders and collets with those flutes still on the
tool. One tip I picked up from Steffan Gottswinter's videos was that
while it is a semi precision grinding tool you can free hand tiny little
features with it too. Recently when making a ten degree dovetail cutter
I put a very slight radius on the tip free hand.

-----------------------

My surface grinder was intended to double as a cutter grinder. The head
swivels for cup and saucer wheels. As a machine with too many joints it's
more adaptable than precise.
https://www.sterlingmachinery.com/used-delta-milwaukee-toolmaker-surface-grinder.html
I found the swivel table with dead centers for it, made the missing base,
and have sharpened some large taps. I have fixtures to grind the ends and
sides of end mills and circular horizontal milling cutters, and compound
angles on lathe bits. I think they were available second-hand because they
aren't good enough for CNC, but they are OK for a hobby shop.

Once I fit the taper attachment to the lathe and finish some spindle taper
adapters (like Sopko 00815) for the grinder I'll be able to mount the
diamond wheels I have on it and grind carbide. That'll likely be after we
achieve permanent world peace.

Re: steel for rollers in a small benchtop rolling mill?

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From: pha...@mindspring.com (pyotr filipivich)
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Subject: Re: steel for rollers in a small benchtop rolling mill?
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2022 12:47:36 -0700
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 by: pyotr filipivich - Thu, 17 Mar 2022 19:47 UTC

Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> on Wed, 16 Mar 2022 18:00:39 -0700
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
>On 3/16/2022 3:48 PM, pyotr filipivich wrote:
>> Greetings
>>
>> I have a small bench top rolling mill. Works fin as long as I
>> don't over do it.
>> But, the rollers are flat. I'd like to put a custom pattern (or
>> two) on thin brass / copper stock which will require something.
>> Option A is to punch the pattern into a piece of flat steel and
>> roll it through. Not a bad idea, but kind of limited to lengths of
>> out put. (Some of this will be for decorating wooden boxes).
>> Plan B would be to put the pattern into a roller so I can just
>> crank out as many feet as I have material. "It will all get used
>> sometime."
>> The issue for custom rollers is of course, what is the best grade
>> of steel for the rollers, and heat treating it after engraving. (Hmmm
>> 'I just had an idea forming in my brain...')
>>
>> The rollers are going to be about 2 to 3 inches long and about
>> "this" diameter. (I really should unpack it and see what the actual
>> sizes are...)
>>
>> Now, where I'm going to find the machine to do this is a complete
>> second question.
>>
>> tschus
>> pyotr
>
>
>Realistically you have two choices. A CNC 4th axis mill, or hand
>engrave it. You might be able to do simple knurl patterns with a lathe,
>but I don't think that's really what you are looking for.
>
>I am sure somebody has better options, but my hammer is a CNC mill with
>a 4th axis rotab and center. Your job looks like a nail to me.
>
>I expect OD need not be exact since your machine has to be adjustable.
>You would just need to get it in the right range.
>
>As to metal choice. The best option would be a good tough tool steel
>for longest life. S7 maybe, but 4140 HT (RC30(+/-)ish) would last a
>while for softer metal rolling, and it can be hardened and tempered in
>the RC50+ range. It would last a modestly long while, and its easier to
>work with in my opinion than some of the really tough tool steels.
>
>Of course if you are trying to roll form a hard metal all bets are off.

Brass, copper, aluminum
--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although far too often, Age travels alone."

Re: steel for rollers in a small benchtop rolling mill?

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Subject: Re: steel for rollers in a small benchtop rolling mill?
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 by: pyotr filipivich - Thu, 17 Mar 2022 19:47 UTC

Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> on Wed, 16 Mar 2022 18:03:05 -0700
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
>On 3/16/2022 6:00 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
>> On 3/16/2022 3:48 PM, pyotr filipivich wrote:
>>> Greetings
>>>
>>>     I have a small bench top rolling mill.  Works fin as long as I
>>> don't over do it.
>>>     But, the rollers are flat.  I'd like to put a custom pattern (or
>>> two) on thin brass / copper stock which will require something.
>>>     Option A is to punch the pattern into a piece of flat steel and
>>> roll it through.  Not a bad idea, but kind of limited to lengths of
>>> out put.  (Some of this will be for decorating wooden boxes).
>>>     Plan B would be to put the pattern into a roller so I can just
>>> crank out as many feet as I have material.  "It will all get used
>>> sometime."
>>>     The issue for custom rollers is of course, what is the best grade
>>> of steel for the rollers, and heat treating it after engraving. (Hmmm
>>> 'I just had an idea forming in my brain...')
>>>
>>>     The rollers are going to be about 2 to 3 inches long and about
>>> "this" diameter.  (I really should unpack it and see what the actual
>>> sizes are...)
>>>
>>>     Now, where I'm going to find the machine to do this is a complete
>>> second question.
>>>
>>> tschus
>>> pyotr
>>
>>
>> Realistically you have two choices.  A CNC 4th axis mill, or hand
>> engrave it.  You might be able to do simple knurl patterns with a lathe,
>> but I don't think that's really what you are looking for.
>>
>> I am sure somebody has better options, but my hammer is a CNC mill with
>> a 4th axis rotab and center.  Your job looks like a nail to me.
>>
>> I expect OD need not be exact since your machine has to be adjustable.
>> You would just need to get it in the right range.
>>
>> As to metal choice.  The best option would be a good tough tool steel
>> for longest life.  S7 maybe, but 4140 HT (RC30(+/-)ish) would last a
>> while for softer metal rolling, and it can be hardened and tempered in
>> the RC50+ range.  It would last a modestly long while, and its easier to
>> work with in my opinion than some of the really tough tool steels.
>>
>> Of course if you are trying to roll form a hard metal all bets are off.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>Did you ask this in another group? Facebook? Home Shop Machinist?
>
>I could have sworn I saw nearly this same question somewhere else very
>recently.

Nope, but I wouldn't be surprise.

I have talked with a friend who would like a custom roller for
silver work.
--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although far too often, Age travels alone."

Re: steel for rollers in a small benchtop rolling mill?

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From: pha...@mindspring.com (pyotr filipivich)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: steel for rollers in a small benchtop rolling mill?
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2022 12:47:36 -0700
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 by: pyotr filipivich - Thu, 17 Mar 2022 19:47 UTC

"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> on Wed, 16 Mar 2022 21:50:16
-0400 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
>"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:t0u17n$e3l$1@dont-email.me...
>
>4140 HT (RC30(+/-)ish) would last a
>while for softer metal rolling, and it can be hardened and tempered in
>the RC50+ range. It would last a modestly long while, and its easier to
>work with in my opinion than some of the really tough tool steels.
>
>---------------------
>
>4140 HT is easy enough to machine with HSS. Do you have hands-on experience
>hardening and tempering it?
>
>One night in TIG class I got frustrated with burn-through and took to piling
>up beads as sculpture and text. It worked better than I expected and with a
>little practice I could make smooth rounded raised lines. Someone with more
>artistic skill might be able to create raised rolling dies that way. I think
>the edges could be refined with a curved riffling file with a safe edge
>ground on the bottom.

Oooh, cool. Now all I need to do is learn TIG ... B-)

I doubt I could set that up in the apartment though. Bummer.
>
>Your customer Keith Snyder says hi.
>
>jsw
--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although far too often, Age travels alone."

Re: steel for rollers in a small benchtop rolling mill?

<t10a72$6g8$1@dont-email.me>

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From: muratla...@gmail.com (Jim Wilkins)
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Subject: Re: steel for rollers in a small benchtop rolling mill?
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2022 17:45:27 -0400
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 by: Jim Wilkins - Thu, 17 Mar 2022 21:45 UTC

"pyotr filipivich" wrote in message
news:9u373hds88laikocho6u0apmtnacv10mff@4ax.com...

I doubt I could set that up in the apartment though. Bummer.
-----------------

You could learn the old low-tech methods.
https://www.worldhistory.org/article/846/cylinder-seals-in-ancient-mesopotamia---their-hist/

https://www.ottofrei.com/GRS-044-504-C-Max-Burin-Graver-Handle-Kit

Re: steel for rollers in a small benchtop rolling mill?

<t10de7$ubu$1@dont-email.me>

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From: muratla...@gmail.com (Jim Wilkins)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: steel for rollers in a small benchtop rolling mill?
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2022 18:40:28 -0400
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 by: Jim Wilkins - Thu, 17 Mar 2022 22:40 UTC

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message news:t10a72$6g8$1@dont-email.me...

"pyotr filipivich" wrote in message
news:9u373hds88laikocho6u0apmtnacv10mff@4ax.com...

I doubt I could set that up in the apartment though. Bummer.
-----------------

You could learn the old low-tech methods.
https://www.worldhistory.org/article/846/cylinder-seals-in-ancient-mesopotamia---their-hist/

https://www.ottofrei.com/GRS-044-504-C-Max-Burin-Graver-Handle-Kit

-----------------------------------

https://www.ganoksin.com/article/costs-learning-hand-engraving/

My first untutored silversmithing project, in an Army craft shop in
Heidelberg, was a hollow silver ball pierced with filed patterns. I had
enough general metalworking experience that it wasn't difficult to figure
out how.

http://www.thehomesteadcraftsman.com/2017/02/hammer-and-chisel-engraving-traditional.html

The ball that the vise mounts on isn't hard to turn on a lathe if you don't
need it perfectly smooth. I made some from cast iron dumbbells by writing a
spreadsheet that calculated the sphere's X and Y coordinates (X^2 + Y^2 =
R^2) and having it print tables of them with decreasing radius and step
sizes, which I followed on the lathe, repeating until the steps were small
enough to file. Decreasing the radius fixes undercutting errors. I worked
quickly and rather crudely on the large roughing steps and took more care as
they approached a smooth sphere. They are ball and socket pivots for a
hoist frame that helped move a 2100 Lb log onto my sawmill last year.

I used the same method this afternoon to make a tapered bushing.

Re: steel for rollers in a small benchtop rolling mill?

<t10l3b$ip2$1@dont-email.me>

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From: non...@none.com99 (Bob La Londe)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: steel for rollers in a small benchtop rolling mill?
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2022 17:51:55 -0700
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 by: Bob La Londe - Fri, 18 Mar 2022 00:51 UTC

On 3/17/2022 12:47 PM, pyotr filipivich wrote:
> Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> on Wed, 16 Mar 2022 18:03:05 -0700
> typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
>> On 3/16/2022 6:00 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
>>> On 3/16/2022 3:48 PM, pyotr filipivich wrote:
>>>> Greetings
>>>>
>>>>     I have a small bench top rolling mill.  Works fin as long as I
>>>> don't over do it.
>>>>     But, the rollers are flat.  I'd like to put a custom pattern (or
>>>> two) on thin brass / copper stock which will require something.
>>>>     Option A is to punch the pattern into a piece of flat steel and
>>>> roll it through.  Not a bad idea, but kind of limited to lengths of
>>>> out put.  (Some of this will be for decorating wooden boxes).
>>>>     Plan B would be to put the pattern into a roller so I can just
>>>> crank out as many feet as I have material.  "It will all get used
>>>> sometime."
>>>>     The issue for custom rollers is of course, what is the best grade
>>>> of steel for the rollers, and heat treating it after engraving. (Hmmm
>>>> 'I just had an idea forming in my brain...')
>>>>
>>>>     The rollers are going to be about 2 to 3 inches long and about
>>>> "this" diameter.  (I really should unpack it and see what the actual
>>>> sizes are...)
>>>>
>>>>     Now, where I'm going to find the machine to do this is a complete
>>>> second question.
>>>>
>>>> tschus
>>>> pyotr
>>>
>>>
>>> Realistically you have two choices.  A CNC 4th axis mill, or hand
>>> engrave it.  You might be able to do simple knurl patterns with a lathe,
>>> but I don't think that's really what you are looking for.
>>>
>>> I am sure somebody has better options, but my hammer is a CNC mill with
>>> a 4th axis rotab and center.  Your job looks like a nail to me.
>>>
>>> I expect OD need not be exact since your machine has to be adjustable.
>>> You would just need to get it in the right range.
>>>
>>> As to metal choice.  The best option would be a good tough tool steel
>>> for longest life.  S7 maybe, but 4140 HT (RC30(+/-)ish) would last a
>>> while for softer metal rolling, and it can be hardened and tempered in
>>> the RC50+ range.  It would last a modestly long while, and its easier to
>>> work with in my opinion than some of the really tough tool steels.
>>>
>>> Of course if you are trying to roll form a hard metal all bets are off.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> Did you ask this in another group? Facebook? Home Shop Machinist?
>>
>> I could have sworn I saw nearly this same question somewhere else very
>> recently.
>
> Nope, but I wouldn't be surprise.
>
> I have talked with a friend who would like a custom roller for
> silver work.

The first thing I might do is ask the manufacturer of the roller if they
have any embossing die rollers available. I might search for groups
where others might have the same or similar roller.

I think there are two approaches I might consider.

One is a single roller for embossing your detail, and a second roller
made of a hard rubber or foam that gives just enough to allow your
pattern to be imprinted.

My other thought would certainly be more expensive and have design and
material thickness limitations so I'll dismiss it for now.

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Re: steel for rollers in a small benchtop rolling mill?

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Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: steel for rollers in a small benchtop rolling mill?
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2022 17:53:52 -0700
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 by: Bob La Londe - Fri, 18 Mar 2022 00:53 UTC

On 3/17/2022 12:47 PM, pyotr filipivich wrote:
> Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> on Wed, 16 Mar 2022 18:00:39 -0700
> typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
>> On 3/16/2022 3:48 PM, pyotr filipivich wrote:
>>> Greetings
>>>
>>> I have a small bench top rolling mill. Works fin as long as I
>>> don't over do it.
>>> But, the rollers are flat. I'd like to put a custom pattern (or
>>> two) on thin brass / copper stock which will require something.
>>> Option A is to punch the pattern into a piece of flat steel and
>>> roll it through. Not a bad idea, but kind of limited to lengths of
>>> out put. (Some of this will be for decorating wooden boxes).
>>> Plan B would be to put the pattern into a roller so I can just
>>> crank out as many feet as I have material. "It will all get used
>>> sometime."
>>> The issue for custom rollers is of course, what is the best grade
>>> of steel for the rollers, and heat treating it after engraving. (Hmmm
>>> 'I just had an idea forming in my brain...')
>>>
>>> The rollers are going to be about 2 to 3 inches long and about
>>> "this" diameter. (I really should unpack it and see what the actual
>>> sizes are...)
>>>
>>> Now, where I'm going to find the machine to do this is a complete
>>> second question.
>>>
>>> tschus
>>> pyotr
>>
>>
>> Realistically you have two choices. A CNC 4th axis mill, or hand
>> engrave it. You might be able to do simple knurl patterns with a lathe,
>> but I don't think that's really what you are looking for.
>>
>> I am sure somebody has better options, but my hammer is a CNC mill with
>> a 4th axis rotab and center. Your job looks like a nail to me.
>>
>> I expect OD need not be exact since your machine has to be adjustable.
>> You would just need to get it in the right range.
>>
>> As to metal choice. The best option would be a good tough tool steel
>> for longest life. S7 maybe, but 4140 HT (RC30(+/-)ish) would last a
>> while for softer metal rolling, and it can be hardened and tempered in
>> the RC50+ range. It would last a modestly long while, and its easier to
>> work with in my opinion than some of the really tough tool steels.
>>
>> Of course if you are trying to roll form a hard metal all bets are off.
>
> Brass, copper, aluminum

if the pieces are not large it might also be practical to use a straight
press with flat embossing die as opposed to a roller.

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From: muratla...@gmail.com (Jim Wilkins)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: steel for rollers in a small benchtop rolling mill?
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 by: Jim Wilkins - Fri, 18 Mar 2022 10:47 UTC

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:t10l3b$ip2$1@dont-email.me...

The first thing I might do is ask the manufacturer of the roller if they
have any embossing die rollers available. I might search for groups
where others might have the same or similar roller.

----------------------

https://www.etsy.com/shop/MekkiSupplies?ref=simple-shop-header-name&listing_id=1090820972

Re: steel for rollers in a small benchtop rolling mill?

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From: pha...@mindspring.com (pyotr filipivich)
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Subject: Re: steel for rollers in a small benchtop rolling mill?
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 by: pyotr filipivich - Fri, 18 Mar 2022 16:36 UTC

Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> on Thu, 17 Mar 2022 17:53:52 -0700
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
>On 3/17/2022 12:47 PM, pyotr filipivich wrote:
>> Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> on Wed, 16 Mar 2022 18:00:39 -0700
>> typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
>>> On 3/16/2022 3:48 PM, pyotr filipivich wrote:
>>>> Greetings
>>>>
>>>> I have a small bench top rolling mill. Works fin as long as I
>>>> don't over do it.
>>>> But, the rollers are flat. I'd like to put a custom pattern (or
>>>> two) on thin brass / copper stock which will require something.
>>>> Option A is to punch the pattern into a piece of flat steel and
>>>> roll it through. Not a bad idea, but kind of limited to lengths of
>>>> out put. (Some of this will be for decorating wooden boxes).
>>>> Plan B would be to put the pattern into a roller so I can just
>>>> crank out as many feet as I have material. "It will all get used
>>>> sometime."
>>>> The issue for custom rollers is of course, what is the best grade
>>>> of steel for the rollers, and heat treating it after engraving. (Hmmm
>>>> 'I just had an idea forming in my brain...')
>>>>
>>>> The rollers are going to be about 2 to 3 inches long and about
>>>> "this" diameter. (I really should unpack it and see what the actual
>>>> sizes are...)
>>>>
>>>> Now, where I'm going to find the machine to do this is a complete
>>>> second question.
>>>>
>>>> tschus
>>>> pyotr
>>>
>>>
>>> Realistically you have two choices. A CNC 4th axis mill, or hand
>>> engrave it. You might be able to do simple knurl patterns with a lathe,
>>> but I don't think that's really what you are looking for.
>>>
>>> I am sure somebody has better options, but my hammer is a CNC mill with
>>> a 4th axis rotab and center. Your job looks like a nail to me.
>>>
>>> I expect OD need not be exact since your machine has to be adjustable.
>>> You would just need to get it in the right range.
>>>
>>> As to metal choice. The best option would be a good tough tool steel
>>> for longest life. S7 maybe, but 4140 HT (RC30(+/-)ish) would last a
>>> while for softer metal rolling, and it can be hardened and tempered in
>>> the RC50+ range. It would last a modestly long while, and its easier to
>>> work with in my opinion than some of the really tough tool steels.
>>>
>>> Of course if you are trying to roll form a hard metal all bets are off.
>>
>> Brass, copper, aluminum
>
>if the pieces are not large it might also be practical to use a straight
>press with flat embossing die as opposed to a roller.

Hmmm ... "But I have a Roller!"

I have considered 'engraving' a flat plate and using that. Which
still leaves me with the issue of making the pattern on the flat
plate. I've also thought about using a flat plate in a "tracer" set
up, but that is way more complicated. Than what? dunno, but I'm sure
it is.
I am reminded of a computer program I wrote decades ago. Took
about 3 weeks (and a quarter's computer time). It probably would have
taken me less time to run the calculations by hand, but I now have
(had) a program to run those numbers anytime I wanted.
Same here: making the pattern, how ever I do it, will probably
take longer than if I just do it by hand. OTOH, I can literally crank
out feet of the fancy banding once done.
--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although far too often, Age travels alone."

Re: steel for rollers in a small benchtop rolling mill?

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From: pha...@mindspring.com (pyotr filipivich)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: steel for rollers in a small benchtop rolling mill?
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2022 09:36:36 -0700
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 by: pyotr filipivich - Fri, 18 Mar 2022 16:36 UTC

Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> on Thu, 17 Mar 2022 17:51:55 -0700
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
>On 3/17/2022 12:47 PM, pyotr filipivich wrote:
>> Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> on Wed, 16 Mar 2022 18:03:05 -0700
>> typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
>>> On 3/16/2022 6:00 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
>>>> On 3/16/2022 3:48 PM, pyotr filipivich wrote:
>>>>> Greetings
>>>>>
Snip
>>>
>>> Did you ask this in another group? Facebook? Home Shop Machinist?
>>>
>>> I could have sworn I saw nearly this same question somewhere else very
>>> recently.
>>
>> Nope, but I wouldn't be surprise.
>>
>> I have talked with a friend who would like a custom roller for
>> silver work.
>
>
>The first thing I might do is ask the manufacturer of the roller if they
>have any embossing die rollers available. I might search for groups
>where others might have the same or similar roller.

An idea too. However ... both of us are looking for a pattern we
can't find. And I'm not sure what make and model this little mill is.
Ya reckon maybe if I unpack it, that would help?
>
>I think there are two approaches I might consider.
>
>One is a single roller for embossing your detail, and a second roller
>made of a hard rubber or foam that gives just enough to allow your
>pattern to be imprinted.

I realized that whatever pattern I come up with, I'm going to have
to reverse it on what ever I use. Conceptually, I want to take a thin
strip and "impress" a pattern of "raised" shapes (stars, half moons,
squares, circles, etc). As I think about it, I could just roll the
strip of brass thin, then hammer the patterns into the strip by hand,
standard sheet metal kind of work.
"But I'm a machinist ... "
>
>My other thought would certainly be more expensive and have design and
>material thickness limitations so I'll dismiss it for now.

"It's a simple procedure involving lasers ..."
--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although far too often, Age travels alone."

Re: steel for rollers in a small benchtop rolling mill?

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From: pha...@mindspring.com (pyotr filipivich)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: steel for rollers in a small benchtop rolling mill?
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2022 09:36:36 -0700
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 by: pyotr filipivich - Fri, 18 Mar 2022 16:36 UTC

"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> on Thu, 17 Mar 2022 18:40:28
-0400 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
>"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message news:t10a72$6g8$1@dont-email.me...
>
>"pyotr filipivich" wrote in message
>news:9u373hds88laikocho6u0apmtnacv10mff@4ax.com...
>
>I doubt I could set that up in the apartment though. Bummer.
>-----------------
>
>You could learn the old low-tech methods.
>https://www.worldhistory.org/article/846/cylinder-seals-in-ancient-mesopotamia---their-hist/
>
>https://www.ottofrei.com/GRS-044-504-C-Max-Burin-Graver-Handle-Kit
>
>-----------------------------------
>
>https://www.ganoksin.com/article/costs-learning-hand-engraving/
>
>My first untutored silversmithing project, in an Army craft shop in
>Heidelberg, was a hollow silver ball pierced with filed patterns. I had
>enough general metalworking experience that it wasn't difficult to figure
>out how.
>
>http://www.thehomesteadcraftsman.com/2017/02/hammer-and-chisel-engraving-traditional.html
>
>The ball that the vise mounts on isn't hard to turn on a lathe if you don't
>need it perfectly smooth. I made some from cast iron dumbbells by writing a
>spreadsheet that calculated the sphere's X and Y coordinates (X^2 + Y^2 =
>R^2) and having it print tables of them with decreasing radius and step
>sizes, which I followed on the lathe, repeating until the steps were small
>enough to file. Decreasing the radius fixes undercutting errors. I worked
>quickly and rather crudely on the large roughing steps and took more care as
>they approached a smooth sphere. They are ball and socket pivots for a
>hoist frame that helped move a 2100 Lb log onto my sawmill last year.
>
>I used the same method this afternoon to make a tapered bushing.
>

Cool.
--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although far too often, Age travels alone."

Re: steel for rollers in a small benchtop rolling mill?

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Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: steel for rollers in a small benchtop rolling mill?
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 by: Bob La Londe - Fri, 18 Mar 2022 17:18 UTC

On 3/18/2022 9:36 AM, pyotr filipivich wrote:
> Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> on Thu, 17 Mar 2022 17:51:55 -0700
> typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
>> On 3/17/2022 12:47 PM, pyotr filipivich wrote:
>>> Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> on Wed, 16 Mar 2022 18:03:05 -0700
>>> typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
>>>> On 3/16/2022 6:00 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
>>>>> On 3/16/2022 3:48 PM, pyotr filipivich wrote:
>>>>>> Greetings
>>>>>>
> Snip
>>>>
>>>> Did you ask this in another group? Facebook? Home Shop Machinist?
>>>>
>>>> I could have sworn I saw nearly this same question somewhere else very
>>>> recently.
>>>
>>> Nope, but I wouldn't be surprise.
>>>
>>> I have talked with a friend who would like a custom roller for
>>> silver work.
>>
>>
>> The first thing I might do is ask the manufacturer of the roller if they
>> have any embossing die rollers available. I might search for groups
>> where others might have the same or similar roller.
>
> An idea too. However ... both of us are looking for a pattern we
> can't find. And I'm not sure what make and model this little mill is.
> Ya reckon maybe if I unpack it, that would help?
>>
>> I think there are two approaches I might consider.
>>
>> One is a single roller for embossing your detail, and a second roller
>> made of a hard rubber or foam that gives just enough to allow your
>> pattern to be imprinted.
>
> I realized that whatever pattern I come up with, I'm going to have
> to reverse it on what ever I use. Conceptually, I want to take a thin
> strip and "impress" a pattern of "raised" shapes (stars, half moons,
> squares, circles, etc). As I think about it, I could just roll the
> strip of brass thin, then hammer the patterns into the strip by hand,
> standard sheet metal kind of work.
> "But I'm a machinist ... "
>>
>> My other thought would certainly be more expensive and have design and
>> material thickness limitations so I'll dismiss it for now.
>
> "It's a simple procedure involving lasers ..."

Actually A local "maker" I know was showed off some sheet metal
impressions he was doing when I visited his shop. He laid the sheet
over over a pattern with foam block and a hard backer over the top. He
was doing them on a simple hand operated hydraulic press. Impressions
of coins, and various other hard patterns. More as proof of concept
than anything else. H had some wrinkling around the impressions, but I
think that was more a function of using patterns not designed to deal
with that.

Two matching rollers was my other thought, but you do have to plan for
material thickness that way. Not just top and bottom, but also on the
slopes and sides.... but lasers are good too.

--
Bob La Londe
Proffessional Hack, Hobbyist, Wannabe, Shade Tree, Button Pushing, Not a
real machinist

--
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Re: steel for rollers in a small benchtop rolling mill?

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Subject: Re: steel for rollers in a small benchtop rolling mill?
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 by: Bob La Londe - Fri, 18 Mar 2022 17:34 UTC

On 3/18/2022 9:36 AM, pyotr filipivich wrote:
> Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> on Thu, 17 Mar 2022 17:53:52 -0700
> typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
>> On 3/17/2022 12:47 PM, pyotr filipivich wrote:
>>> Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> on Wed, 16 Mar 2022 18:00:39 -0700
>>> typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
>>>> On 3/16/2022 3:48 PM, pyotr filipivich wrote:
>>>>> Greetings
>>>>>
>>>>> I have a small bench top rolling mill. Works fin as long as I
>>>>> don't over do it.
>>>>> But, the rollers are flat. I'd like to put a custom pattern (or
>>>>> two) on thin brass / copper stock which will require something.
>>>>> Option A is to punch the pattern into a piece of flat steel and
>>>>> roll it through. Not a bad idea, but kind of limited to lengths of
>>>>> out put. (Some of this will be for decorating wooden boxes).
>>>>> Plan B would be to put the pattern into a roller so I can just
>>>>> crank out as many feet as I have material. "It will all get used
>>>>> sometime."
>>>>> The issue for custom rollers is of course, what is the best grade
>>>>> of steel for the rollers, and heat treating it after engraving. (Hmmm
>>>>> 'I just had an idea forming in my brain...')
>>>>>
>>>>> The rollers are going to be about 2 to 3 inches long and about
>>>>> "this" diameter. (I really should unpack it and see what the actual
>>>>> sizes are...)
>>>>>
>>>>> Now, where I'm going to find the machine to do this is a complete
>>>>> second question.
>>>>>
>>>>> tschus
>>>>> pyotr
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Realistically you have two choices. A CNC 4th axis mill, or hand
>>>> engrave it. You might be able to do simple knurl patterns with a lathe,
>>>> but I don't think that's really what you are looking for.
>>>>
>>>> I am sure somebody has better options, but my hammer is a CNC mill with
>>>> a 4th axis rotab and center. Your job looks like a nail to me.
>>>>
>>>> I expect OD need not be exact since your machine has to be adjustable.
>>>> You would just need to get it in the right range.
>>>>
>>>> As to metal choice. The best option would be a good tough tool steel
>>>> for longest life. S7 maybe, but 4140 HT (RC30(+/-)ish) would last a
>>>> while for softer metal rolling, and it can be hardened and tempered in
>>>> the RC50+ range. It would last a modestly long while, and its easier to
>>>> work with in my opinion than some of the really tough tool steels.
>>>>
>>>> Of course if you are trying to roll form a hard metal all bets are off.
>>>
>>> Brass, copper, aluminum
>>
>> if the pieces are not large it might also be practical to use a straight
>> press with flat embossing die as opposed to a roller.
>
> Hmmm ... "But I have a Roller!"
>
> I have considered 'engraving' a flat plate and using that. Which
> still leaves me with the issue of making the pattern on the flat
> plate. I've also thought about using a flat plate in a "tracer" set
> up, but that is way more complicated. Than what? dunno, but I'm sure
> it is.
> I am reminded of a computer program I wrote decades ago. Took
> about 3 weeks (and a quarter's computer time). It probably would have
> taken me less time to run the calculations by hand, but I now have
> (had) a program to run those numbers anytime I wanted.
> Same here: making the pattern, how ever I do it, will probably
> take longer than if I just do it by hand. OTOH, I can literally crank
> out feet of the fancy banding once done.

Long running computer programs - TANGENT ALERT. Some years back my
geology instructor in college told me I had an A even if I bombed the
final exam. So made a big show of it when I got up and walked out with
a week of classes left. I was just being an ass and having a little fun
of course. I stopped by his office later to make sure he took it in
fun. While I was there he showed me a water saturation model he was
running that took "only" a couple days to execute each time he changed a
parameter running on his brand new state of the art 386 computer running
a BASIC interpreter. I brought him a BASIC compiler from the computer
lab, showed him how to clean up his code so it would compile, and let
him have a go at it. His saturation models went from days to hours just
by running compiled code instead of running it in an interpreter. After
that I told him if he really wanted it to run fast learn to program in
C+ and only include the math and display libraries.

Back On Topic: Where (generally) are you located? If you can't make
what you want yourself ultimately you will probably have to have
somebody make it for you. Yes, unpack the darned thing all freaking
ready. LOL.

There are creative solutions as well. Maybe, find little doodads that
are shapes you want that might hold up for a few runs. Screw them to a
ring. Slide the ring over a drum. Lots of mechanical details there to
work out, but there are tons of steel stamps out there used for various
projects in leather,metal, etc you could just buy, and cut the pattern
off the end to screw/solder/welder/glue to a roller.

You might even be able to use hard wood patterns for short runs.

--
Bob La Londe
Proffessional Hack, Hobbyist, Wannabe, Shade Tree, Button Pushing, Not a
real machinist

--
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Re: steel for rollers in a small benchtop rolling mill?

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Subject: Re: steel for rollers in a small benchtop rolling mill?
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 by: Jim Wilkins - Fri, 18 Mar 2022 22:33 UTC

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:t12fro$v9v$1@dont-email.me...

....While I was there he showed me a water saturation model he was
running that took "only" a couple days to execute each time he changed a
parameter running on his brand new state of the art 386 computer running
a BASIC interpreter. I brought him a BASIC compiler from the computer
lab, showed him how to clean up his code so it would compile, and let
him have a go at it. His saturation models went from days to hours just
by running compiled code instead of running it in an interpreter.

-------------------

I wrote an IC demo board application program in compiled QBasic that used
the printer port set up as an I2C interface to program the device. To
auto-adjust the timing I wrote a servo loop that timed the execution of
integer FOR loops. It turned out they ran at half the clock speed.

The minimum pulse with of a printer port output bit was ~1uS, controlled by
hardware. The clock tick interval was 55mS, 18 ticks per second.

Re: steel for rollers in a small benchtop rolling mill?

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From: pha...@mindspring.com (pyotr filipivich)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: steel for rollers in a small benchtop rolling mill?
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2022 17:02:44 -0700
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 by: pyotr filipivich - Sat, 19 Mar 2022 00:02 UTC

Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> on Fri, 18 Mar 2022 10:18:38 -0700
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
>
>>> My other thought would certainly be more expensive and have design and
>>> material thickness limitations so I'll dismiss it for now.
>>
>> "It's a simple procedure involving lasers ..."
>
>
>Actually A local "maker" I know was showed off some sheet metal
>impressions he was doing when I visited his shop. He laid the sheet
>over over a pattern with foam block and a hard backer over the top. He
>was doing them on a simple hand operated hydraulic press. Impressions
>of coins, and various other hard patterns. More as proof of concept
>than anything else. H had some wrinkling around the impressions, but I
>think that was more a function of using patterns not designed to deal
>with that.
>
>Two matching rollers was my other thought, but you do have to plan for
>material thickness that way. Not just top and bottom, but also on the
>slopes and sides.... but lasers are good too.

There's a long way to go from "this would be cool" to "and that's
what it makes." I'm right now working on the "okay, how might I go
about this?" Matching rollers is a clever idea, but one is faced with
indexing them so they're "in sync".

Maybe ...
--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although far too often, Age travels alone."

Re: steel for rollers in a small benchtop rolling mill?

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From: pha...@mindspring.com (pyotr filipivich)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: steel for rollers in a small benchtop rolling mill?
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2022 17:02:44 -0700
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 by: pyotr filipivich - Sat, 19 Mar 2022 00:02 UTC

Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> on Fri, 18 Mar 2022 10:34:46 -0700
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
>On 3/18/2022 9:36 AM, pyotr filipivich wrote:
>> Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> on Thu, 17 Mar 2022 17:53:52 -0700
>> typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
>>> On 3/17/2022 12:47 PM, pyotr filipivich wrote:
>>>> Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> on Wed, 16 Mar 2022 18:00:39 -0700
>>>> typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
>>>>> On 3/16/2022 3:48 PM, pyotr filipivich wrote:
>>>>>> Greetings
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have a small bench top rolling mill. Works fin as long as I
>>>>>> don't over do it.
>>>>>> But, the rollers are flat. I'd like to put a custom pattern (or
>>>>>> two) on thin brass / copper stock which will require something.
>>>>>> Option A is to punch the pattern into a piece of flat steel and
>>>>>> roll it through. Not a bad idea, but kind of limited to lengths of
>>>>>> out put. (Some of this will be for decorating wooden boxes).
>>>>>> Plan B would be to put the pattern into a roller so I can just
>>>>>> crank out as many feet as I have material. "It will all get used
>>>>>> sometime."
>>>>>> The issue for custom rollers is of course, what is the best grade
>>>>>> of steel for the rollers, and heat treating it after engraving. (Hmmm
>>>>>> 'I just had an idea forming in my brain...')
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The rollers are going to be about 2 to 3 inches long and about
>>>>>> "this" diameter. (I really should unpack it and see what the actual
>>>>>> sizes are...)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Now, where I'm going to find the machine to do this is a complete
>>>>>> second question.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> tschus
>>>>>> pyotr
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Realistically you have two choices. A CNC 4th axis mill, or hand
>>>>> engrave it. You might be able to do simple knurl patterns with a lathe,
>>>>> but I don't think that's really what you are looking for.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am sure somebody has better options, but my hammer is a CNC mill with
>>>>> a 4th axis rotab and center. Your job looks like a nail to me.
>>>>>
>>>>> I expect OD need not be exact since your machine has to be adjustable.
>>>>> You would just need to get it in the right range.
>>>>>
>>>>> As to metal choice. The best option would be a good tough tool steel
>>>>> for longest life. S7 maybe, but 4140 HT (RC30(+/-)ish) would last a
>>>>> while for softer metal rolling, and it can be hardened and tempered in
>>>>> the RC50+ range. It would last a modestly long while, and its easier to
>>>>> work with in my opinion than some of the really tough tool steels.
>>>>>
>>>>> Of course if you are trying to roll form a hard metal all bets are off.
>>>>
>>>> Brass, copper, aluminum
>>>
>>> if the pieces are not large it might also be practical to use a straight
>>> press with flat embossing die as opposed to a roller.
>>
>> Hmmm ... "But I have a Roller!"
>>
>> I have considered 'engraving' a flat plate and using that. Which
>> still leaves me with the issue of making the pattern on the flat
>> plate. I've also thought about using a flat plate in a "tracer" set
>> up, but that is way more complicated. Than what? dunno, but I'm sure
>> it is.
>> I am reminded of a computer program I wrote decades ago. Took
>> about 3 weeks (and a quarter's computer time). It probably would have
>> taken me less time to run the calculations by hand, but I now have
>> (had) a program to run those numbers anytime I wanted.
>> Same here: making the pattern, how ever I do it, will probably
>> take longer than if I just do it by hand. OTOH, I can literally crank
>> out feet of the fancy banding once done.
>
>Long running computer programs - TANGENT ALERT. Some years back my
>geology instructor in college told me I had an A even if I bombed the
>final exam. So made a big show of it when I got up and walked out with
>a week of classes left. I was just being an ass and having a little fun
>of course. I stopped by his office later to make sure he took it in
>fun. While I was there he showed me a water saturation model he was
>running that took "only" a couple days to execute each time he changed a
>parameter running on his brand new state of the art 386 computer running
>a BASIC interpreter. I brought him a BASIC compiler from the computer
>lab, showed him how to clean up his code so it would compile, and let
>him have a go at it. His saturation models went from days to hours just
>by running compiled code instead of running it in an interpreter. After
>that I told him if he really wanted it to run fast learn to program in
>C+ and only include the math and display libraries.
>
>Back On Topic: Where (generally) are you located? If you can't make
>what you want yourself ultimately you will probably have to have
>somebody make it for you. Yes, unpack the darned thing all freaking
>ready. LOL.

There's a Maker Space at the Community college a couple miles from
here. That's sort of "where I'll go with this." Eventually.
>
>There are creative solutions as well. Maybe, find little doodads that
>are shapes you want that might hold up for a few runs. Screw them to a
>ring. Slide the ring over a drum. Lots of mechanical details there to
>work out, but there are tons of steel stamps out there used for various
>projects in leather,metal, etc you could just buy, and cut the pattern
>off the end to screw/solder/welder/glue to a roller.
>
>You might even be able to use hard wood patterns for short runs.

"Now that's an idea.... do I still have those teak bits?"
>
>--
>Bob La Londe
>Proffessional Hack, Hobbyist, Wannabe, Shade Tree, Button Pushing, Not a
>real machinist
--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although far too often, Age travels alone."

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